Retronauts - Retronauts Micro 90: The King of Kong reconsidered

Episode Date: June 29, 2018

With the recent news that former Donkey Kong champion Billy Mitchell has had his score records revoked, Jeremy, Chris, and Benj look back at King of Kong, the documentary that chronicled his attempt to defend his records and painted him as a villain.

Everyone is Jeremy. Before we jump into the episode proper, I wanted to indulge in a tiny bit of self-promotion. Retronauts has teamed up with fan gamer and engineer Mike Choi to create something for fans of classic gaming and Nintendo's Switch. Flip grip. Flip grip is the missing piece to Nintendo Switch. It's a simple plastic controller grip that allows you to play the system sideways in handheld mode. A lot of old arcade games ran in what is known as Tate mode, where their screens and their cabinets were rotated sideways to be taller than wide. Lots of games on Switch offer vertical display options, which the system can take unique advantage up thanks to the way the entire console consists of a portable

screen with detachable controllers, but until now you've needed to set the screen on a desk stand in order to play Tate mode games. Flip grip allows you to rotate your switch and use it as a portable by securing the screens and the detachable joycons together in your hands. More than 20 games currently take advantage of vertical play on Switch, including timeless masterpieces like Gallagah, Donkey Kong, and Pac-Man, hardcore shoot-em-ups like Igoruga, Gunbird, and Strikers in 1845, and even a few modern games like Pinball FX3 and Mutant Muds.

There are more on the way, too, like Sega's game ground, S&K's Akari Warriors, and Bullet Hell Shooter, Saivari, or Delta. FlipGrip is available for pre-order now on Kickstarter. Unlike other Kickstarter projects, this one's risk-free. We've prototyped the FlipGrip extensively, and it's ready for manufacture. We just need the cash to pay for it and have it produced and distributed. In fact, since the Kickstarter has already blown past its goal, we've already set the production wheels in motion, so the FlipGrip will be in your hands this fall. FlipGrip is just $12 plus shipping.

So if you love Classic Gaming on Nintendo Switch, head over to Kickstarter before July 9th and check out FlipGrip. This week in Retronauts, we've got a kill screen coming up. Hi, everyone, it's Jeremy Parrish, here with people in Raleigh, North Carolina, to talk about video games. Who are these people? I'm Chris Sims, and my joke is now appreciated. Yes, thank you. That was a few episodes ago. You made a joke about the kill screen and not having seen King of Kong.

I didn't get it, but now I get it. I was met with blank stairs. Yep, but that's okay. People on the audience understood, and they were smarter than us. Anyway, so who else here? I am also Chris Sims. No, not. Double ganger.

One of you is going to die. Benj Edwards. Benj Edwards. That's me. Okay. Yeah. Well, anyway, as you might have guessed from the introduction and topic and so forth, this isn't just a callback to a previous episode, although it is.

But we are actually going to talk about the King of Kong because it's in the news again, kind of. It's been a couple of months now. how should I go about introducing this? Okay, so the King of Kong is a film, a documentary film about people's race for the high score. And the person who, for a long time, was the uncontested and then contested, but then reaffirmed Donkey Kong world champion, Billy Mitchell. He recently came under fire for accusations of having cheated at the submissions he's made for his world record attempts. And so in response to that, the owners of Twin Galaxies, the sort of official, you

know, paper of record, if you want to say that, for video game high scores. So what's the word I'm looking for? They struck him from the record. Yes. They rescinded. Rescended. Yes, rescinded. That's a good way. They disqualified. Disenfranchised. Every single score he had. So basically, the one claim to fame that this man has had all of his adult life, which is he plays video games better than anyone, has been taken away from him. So you kind of feel bad for the guy, except if you've seen the King of Kong,

maybe you don't feel bad for the guy because he makes himself a little difficult to like in that movie. And so I guess, you know, it's interesting to go back and watch the King of Kong again in light of these accusations and what's happened with Billy Mitchell's records because, I don't know, like the movie really makes him

hard to like, although I've heard that in person, he's extremely charismatic. Retronaut's occasional guest, Caitlin Oliver, has rub shoulders with him a few times, like played at competitions with him, and she thinks he's great. And I don't know, like in person he probably is, but I guess there's, you know, different facets to everyone's personalities. So he seems like a guy who's really nice to people he likes and who are on his side and not nice to people who are not in his circle. It's also the filmmaker's ability to make him look like anything they want. They can make him look like a dumbass or he could be great or a hero, you know, depending on how they cut it and how they portray him. There's definitely a lot of editorializing happening in the King of Kong and, you know, as someone who edits and knows how to shape a story.

They're definitely, you can definitely see the narrative that the filmmakers were going for. And I'm sure, I don't know if that was necessarily like a dislike of Mitchell or if it was just, you know, the idea that it was. movie needs to have conflict and drama, and therefore they latched on to a narrative where Billy Mitchell, and to a certain degree, twin galaxies, because they don't come out looking good in that movie. They really don't. Are the bad guys in Steve Weeby, the challenger to the Donkey Kong throne, is just a lovable little guy who is so sweet and gentle.

And I'm sure there's some truth in all of this. I'm sure you, like, you, I don't know, it's a documentary, so there's, there are limitations to how much of a story you can spin out of a. footage you get. I'm sure there's some truth behind everything in King of Kong, but I don't know. It's I spent the entire movie kind of wondering, like, is Steve

Weeby really this nice? Is Billy Mitchell really this much of a jerk? Plotting from a distance through a cell phone with people spying on the, yeah, exactly. He's about to hit 600,000. And yeah. Walking by silently in the background of a

power move intimidation tactic. Yeah, well, they had a camera on Billy as he was talking to the other person. So obviously that was planned in advance that those things were Yeah. I mean, this was clearly, like that's the thing about documentaries. You don't get access just by accident. It's not like, oh, we just happen to have a camera there. That never happens. Like, it's planned out. Like, you know, reality TV, all those dramas and flare-ups and everything. Like, those are pretty fake. My wife, Pat, shoots photos for, not a reality TV, but like a home improvement television show, love it or listed. Like, she goes and shoots photographs of

the before and after when they, you know, rebuild the homes and redesign them. And, you know, like the personalities of the host that come across on TV are definitely there. Like, I've met them in person. And yeah, like, they are kind of who you see on television. But that whole thing is constructed. And I was, I was recently filming a, like, I had her do the camera work, you know, for me on a Kickstarter pitch video. And, like, you know, I was reciting dialogue and I'd be like, okay, I have to do it over and over again. And I had to do like, you know, six or seven takes to get this stuff right. And she was like, that's fine. Like the professionals on this TV show, like they do half a dozen, a dozen takes before they get everything. So, you know. So the question is, is your personality different or the same as what comes across on podcasts? Well, apparently my personality is a lot more confident and outgoing on podcast. And people are apparently taken aback when they meet me in person. And I'm. kind of quiet and don't like lead conversations, but I just, I'm an introvert. I just have to

be on for the show. Go ahead, Chris. I will say you're, you're a little more quiet than I expected as a long time listener. But I am also very loud. I love documentaries. Honestly, like, it's my favorite movies to watch, generally speaking, if I'm going to sit down and pay attention to something, are documentaries. And I love sports documentaries in particular. And the thing about sports documentaries is that sports and competitions inherently have a winner and a loser. So there's a built-in narrative structure there. And if you're going to get engaged with it beyond just, I like basketball, so I'm watching a documentary about the 1990 Detroit Pistons, you know, if you're going to get engaged with

it beyond that, they were pretty good. They were the bad boys. That's a great 30 for 30 that everyone should watch. If you're going to get involved with it beyond that, then there needs to be someone needs to fit into the role of hero and villain. The King of Kong, more than anything else, reminds me of this movie

called Air Guitar Nation, which is about the World Air Guitar Championships, which is a similarly trivial thing that people take very, very seriously. And it also has this very Billy Mitchell, Steve Weeby,

dynamic in it. The thing about King of Kong is no two people have ever been slotted so neatly into those roles as Steve Weeby, the guy who, who teaches kids and plays drums,

and he's playing in his own little college. And he's so modest. Like, when his students find out that he's a world champion, as opposed to just like a guy who made a high score, like the little tomboy student is like, what? Yeah. She, like, it blows her mind. Yeah.

And he does an album of Christian music after the movie called the King of Song. So good. No one radiates niceness like that guy, regardless of how he is in real life, which I assume he's perfectly fine. Whereas no one else has that instantly hateable confidence as Billy Mitchell. If you go back to the articles that were written about the video game championships in 1980, where the first time everybody went to Twin Galaxies and competed,

Billy Mitchell shows up in a custom-made t-shirt that says Centipede 15 million on it. Like he's dusty roads. Like he's going to cut. promos on people. He's a natural seal. He was 17 years old. Yeah. But I mean, like, that didn't come just from him. You're not 17 and are like, I mean, maybe you are. But you think, okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna slam everyone, slam dunk everyone by showing off my score on a t-shirt. I'm sure that was enabled by his parents and like the people around him. Oh yeah. And I'm not like, look, if I was that good at anything, I would have the same, I would have more t-shirts. I would carry a sign. I've, I've done

the speak a message with a custom t-shirt thing on camera before. I flipped off all of Neo Gaff for their anger over my Ghost and Goblins, ultimate Ghost and Goblins review score. He, regardless of how he is in real life, you know, whoever he is when he's at home, you know, he has this public persona of the classic pro wrestling villain. He's the guy who's better than you and he knows it and he's not even going to give this scrappy underdog, even the hint of a break. Yeah, I mean, at one point

in the documentary, like when he does that power move and walks behind Steve Webe with his wife, he's like, he tells us, leans over and tells his wife, and you can barely hear him on camera, he says there are some people who just aren't worth associating with. There's something like that. Yes. It's like, come on. The only

person I've ever seen in a documentary, a sports documentary, come off as much as that kind of guy is Bill Lambier of Bill Lambier's Combat Basketball thing. Something about named Bill. Yeah, maybe so. Who, if you watch the Bad Boys documentary about the Pistons,

talks about how it is his job to destroy other people's confidence and throw them off their game. And that's why he's a guy who got into fistfights with Michael Jordan and Larry Byrne on the court. And he got a video game based on him. Well, so did Michael Jordan. He played real life combat basketball. He did.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a, that movie, like, I spent my entire time watching it, like, the whole hour and a half, like, trying to decipher. it, like trying to say what is, you know, what is a narrative, like, what is truth here and what is the narrative that has been edited together? And it's tough. I don't know if I can really say. I was bothered by, I just watched it again last

night, and I watched it in 2007 when it was new, but a couple things struck me, which is that the art of indie documentaries have gone dramatically forward in this time, you know, since that was created. It was a sort of pioneering video game

documentary. I mean, that whole movie, not to get off on too much of a tangent, but it really does feel like a time capsule into the very end of an era. Like, yeah. It's like the Mesozoic era was about to end. All the televisions and screens are still CRTs and you get like the role. And it was kind of cool because you like see someone playing, what was it, Gallagher or something and the role is going sideways. I'm like, oh, they just turned the monitor sideways. But yeah, it's like, it just, I mean, the fashion and everything just feels a little, a little like from a different era. Like things are different now. There was, like, at the beginning, some of those events are in 2005, 2006. That's like the beginning of the blog era of video game journalism, which totally changed things, made things faster. So they're talking about like, we're going to put this score on the internet, guys. It's going on the internet. They meant the, you know, the Twin Galaxies site. I know, but the way they're talking about it is like, you know, pretty much. Once it's on the internet, it's permanent.

It's forever. Yeah. Nothing disappears on the internet. I want to make one other point, which is that this, the film, like the, the, the structure of the King of Kong, it bothered me that the most dramatic moments to me would have been when he surpassed his high score. When Steve Weeby surpassed Billy Mitchell's high score

and he does that a couple times, but it's just like a line going up a screen. There's no drama built into it. Like I would have made that, if I were the director, I would have made that the more dramatic point. I have to imagine that they watch the footage. Like surely they have footage of it.

And then they just watched it and we're like, wow, it's actually kind of boring to watch. Yeah, it's like the same four levels over and over. And the challenge, the only, like, the only sticky part is really like the, the flames at the bottom of the first stage and the, the jacks that bounce along the top of the second stage. That's it. Yeah, they show the jack thing a hundred times. Yep. It is really hard.

It is. The thing that I think is really interesting about the current controversy, like the actual thing that got Billy Mitchell's score taken down. Actually, we should talk about that. Yeah. It's the, it's the secret tape that he has, which is the most. villainous move in the movie. It's when he finds out that Steve Weeby has broken, what is it, a million points?

Steve Weebe becomes the first person to break a million points. And so Billy Mitchell's like, actually, I have this tape that I've been keeping in a safe that proves I'm the first person to break it. So he takes away, you can beat a high score, but you can't ever be the first person

to do something again. And he manages to take that away from him. And it's so shady in the movie. And it's not surprising that that would become the flashpoint. And a thing that I thought was really interesting when I was researching it is that there's no, there's no like game genie chicanery going on, right? Like it's, he's absolutely playing the game. He's just not playing it on the hardware he said he was playing it on. Right. Yeah. Supposedly, Mitchell has been playing

games on maim on an emulator and filming off the screen, you know, like a very convincing set up, but not actually on original Donkey Kong hardware. And if that's the case, and some people who know this stuff inside and out are convinced that it is the case, then, yeah, his claims aren't valid because he submitted high scores

specifically for original hardware. And that was, like, you know, when Steve Weby in the movie first crosses a million points, that's the technicality that they try to get him on. Like, Mitchell sends people to his house to, like, invade his home and dismantle

his arcade system to make sure that his board hasn't been modified. Like, that's, that's, uh, that's pretty, pretty nasty. But the, but the, but it lends that delicious, delicious irony that he was the guy doing it all along. Right. Well, I mean, we kind of see that with the government now, like everything that in the campaign leading up to the presidential election in 2016, that basically Trump said, oh, well, Clinton will do this and this will happen with Clinton. He was saying those things because he planned to do them. Like, it's the same thing. People, like, can't imagine other people not scheming the way that they do and acting the way that they do.

And so they project their own flaws as other peoples and their own failings and their own schemes. Yeah, I feel like that's one of the weaknesses of the human condition is that it's hard to imagine people thinking away other than you, the way you do. And so I agree. Okay. Well, see, now it's really hard for me to imagine you thinking differently than I. do. I think that you've said that. I think the same, same things, everything. But yeah, so going back to, you know, the secret tape. So I really do feel like that is the, like, the worst thing in this entire movie, because you have a guy who went through all the rules. He, like, filmed himself with a camera over his shoulder playing Donkey Kong on what seemed to be legitimate hardware. And you can even hear his kid, like, screaming at him, Daddy, stop playing Donkey Kong. And it's just like, Wow, you can really feel his pain. Could not have humanized him more.

No, no, absolutely. Wipe my butt. He could not be more... I know how that is. Like, he could not be a more perfect character. Exactly. And yeah, so the tape that is submitted is like, secret, super secret, hand it off,

and it comes in, and it has... It gives it to a grandma. He said, take this with you. Like, he can lose your life. He tries, like, that's his equivalent of, of Daddy, wipe my butt is, is handing this octogenarian who's, who really loves Kubert, a tape to carry.

And then it gets handed off to some other guy. And apparently he's like, it's okay if you die, but don't let this get messed up. But yeah, this tape, like, has defects. Apparently it's a second generation copy of a VHS tape. So, like, at certain times it rolls. And it always rolls on the left side. So you get these glitches that just happen to cover up the score.

And then there's, like, jumps. And all of a sudden, the score is different. And, like, even when it hits, when he crosses the one million, threshold and it flips over to zero, like, that's another part that it rolls in and you get like this glitch. So, yeah, like at that point, you say, wow, this is really impressive, but we need to see, you know, the original tape. But instead, um, the camera gets Walter Day, the guy who's kind of like the efficient for, uh, Twin Galaxies, you know, the famous guy who always wears the referee shirt around, um, it was in Reckett Ralph and everything. Um, he, uh,

he gets on the phone with Billy. He's like, oh, it's a second generation tape. Well, okay, yeah, this seems fine. After all the scrutiny they put on Steve Webe's submission, they're just like, oh, yeah, it's Billy, it's cool, we trust him. Yeah, which is a function of him being there for 30 years. Right, yeah. I mean... And I think the interesting thing about Billy Mitchell is he's very good at video games. Like, he is extremely good at Donkey Kong and Centipede and Missile Command and all the other games that he held records in, like legitimately. Yeah, and that's something Frank Sefaldi said on Twitter was, like, the saddest thing about this is Billy Mitchell is legitimately amazing

at video games, yet, you know, if this maim thing is true, then it's like he was so desperate to maintain his records and maintain his acclaim that, you know, just being incredibly great wasn't good enough for him, and he had to, like, you know,

taint his own legacy by fixing things, just to hold on to his little slice of fame. It's like performance enhancing drugs. Right, basically. Lance Armstrong. wrong. Mame is the modern day steroid. And that's the other thing that makes the existence of the secret tape so shady.

Because, again, T-shirt, Centipede, 15 million, you know, opening up the jacket to show it off at the photo shoot. That's not a dude who keeps his one million point score secret until he needs it. That is a dude who would like, that tape would have been at Twin Galaxies that day if it was legit, I think. As someone who watched that movie with a burning hatred for the character. of Billy Mitchell, if not the person. You think it's possible that the filmmaker convinced Billy Mitchell to do that as a plot device? Does anybody know this, the guy who made that movie? I don't know anything about him.

I think that the fact that there was a film crew there making a documentary in which he would be prominently featured, that would be his, that would be chronicling his downfall if he didn't, surely that's a factor. Like, it's one thing if, like, it's one thing if, you know, Steve Weeby gets the record and the only people who care about it are the people. who follow competitive Donkey Kong. Yeah, I mean, I think when you say it that way, most like what happened. Clearly this documentary came around after Steve Webe reported his high score. And someone was like, oh, I should do a documentary

about this, about this guy. And, you know, then I guess probably he sent people to talk to Billy Mitchell's folks. And Billy Mitchell was like, hmm, this is a chance for me to, you know, get on the record as being the best ever. and I think he just horribly miscalculated how he would come off by taking these approaches. He didn't realize, you know, things that seem a good idea to you from kind of within your own brain.

You don't always know how it's going to look on the outside. And I think he really, I don't think he's actually like a cackling evil villain. I think he saw an opportunity to defend himself. And instead of going out and just like playing against Steve Weeby on the same arcade cabinet and seeing who get the highest score, He was like, I'm going to throw a curveball and be sneaky and underhanded and surprise everyone. And it didn't come off right. It didn't come off as him like, you know, saving the day at the last second. It came off as him being, you know, kind of craven and dishonest and gaming the system and being a hypocrite.

And I can't imagine that was his intention. He didn't know he was Cobra Commander. Exactly. And he said, like in interviews, he's talked about it. Like, he was very surprised and reportedly very hurt by the way he was portrayed in that film, obviously, because he does. He comes off as an arch villain in that movie. And I'm sure there's plenty of footage of Billy Mitchell saying very reasonable things. But I also think you don't get what we do see in that movie if some of that isn't there.

I mean, a documentary, unless, again, you know, it's like a real housewife sort of thing where it's just made up. Like, it's working with things that exist. Like, you don't just make footage up. You don't, like, say, okay, Billy, so this, this, you know, this great conversation, this really friendly, cordial conversation we had between you and Steve, that was great. But can we also get you acting sneaky and, like, driving away from the arcade and dropping people off without actually stopping to, you know, interact with anyone? Would that be okay, too?

Yeah. I think he has a very natural, heelish charisma to him. And I think that bluster and that bravado comes out, which, you know, is not unearned. Again, he was a record holder. He did, like, he has set high scores at live events. He's legitimately good. There's no problem with that confidence. But you combine that confidence with that charisma and that tie.

And he's, he's at, I actually like the hair. I didn't say I didn't like it. I think, I think there is some, like, you know, like social class coding in this. Like, Steve is the middle-aged, or middle-class, like, family man. And Billy, like, if you look at the people around him, they're all a little kind of like Jersey Shore. I think there is some sort of subtle, like, class, what discrimination almost at work. So I don't want to talk too much about his appearance because, I don't know, I don't like it, but clearly it works for him. That's part of his image, though.

And, I mean, he has followers. He's like a cult leader, his super hard. core followers that that report we read yeah people at that recent um he just gave a speech over the weekend about defending himself this is we're talking about billy mitchell and uh they said like everybody cheered and somebody at the end of the report by john irwin we just read said that they videotaped it and he the reporter overheard the guy with the tape saying this is the most important tape you'll ever see or something like that you know yeah i mean i i actually saw michael in person kind of at a distance at Midwest Gaming Classic this year, which was like two weeks

after the main thing came out. And like there were, you know, people with cameras like following around and just like this crowd, like a retinue of people sort of trailing after him. It wasn't a huge crowd. But I mean, clearly like he does have this sort of magnetic aura and he's very likable in person and people really admire him. So again, like I, you know, you said something, Chris, about his confidence. But I really. really feel like what we see in King of Khan, Kong comes from a lack of confidence. He won't come out and actually play the game to defend his record because, you know, it is a random game. And if he loses in public, if he doesn't get a higher score than Steve Weeby in public, then he lose his face. Like,

it's, you know, even if, you know, he could go at some point and get a million, you know, a million points again, like in that moment, he would have to perform to his greatest ability. And there is that element of randomization in Donkey Kong, where he can't be guaranteed that that would happen. So, yeah, I mean, there's confidence, but there's also a lack of, like, you know, I can't totally control this. Well, there's a, what it is is that he's the one with something to lose. Right. And I think he has, you know, earned confidence as a, as a player, but also he has a legacy to consider, whereas Steve Weeby doesn't. Right.

Steve Weeby, like, it's, it's Rocky. It's Dusty Roads versus Rick Flair. It's, it's all of it. And it's, it makes for the perfect narrative, but I feel like there are human emotions at that. Like, why would he put his fame in this community that he is, if not a pillar of, certainly a building block of? Like, why would he put that at risk if he didn't have to? Well, but then at the same time, he talks throughout the documentary about how video games are competitive. And competitive gaming is a thing that has to happen in the moment.

Like, you have to be there live. And then he never actually comes out to play live. So it's like, are you, are you like reading your own press? I don't get it. Yeah. Digster has a playlist for every moment, mood and minute of your life. Digster is soundtracking your world, one playlist at a time. Go to digster.fm and see what I'm talking about.

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Well, I'll tell you I have not. updated my musical taste since high school, so you can listen to such songs as Blister in the Sun by the Violent Fems. Just What I Needed by the Cars. Sell out by a real big fish. Skah is not dead, by the way. And Istanbul by they might be giants. All great songs, check them out at digster.fm.m. slash Bob. Be sure to follow our playlist, and you can listen to them over and over again. The playlist will be updated weekly, so be sure to check back each week for updates. Again, go to digster.fm. slash Bob and Dickster.fm. Jeremy. And listen to our play playlist and be sure to head to digster.fm always for the best mix of music for every moment,

mood, and minute of your life. Whoa, hang on. Yeah, I know what you're thinking. Oh, it's another ad. Time to hit fast forward. But this once, can I impose on you to hear me out? Ads help us continue to keep this show free to download while still allowing us to invest the time and energy into making retronauts the best possible exploration of video game history we can create. So we'd like your feedback on what kind of ads you'd actually want to hear. If you enjoy retronauts, we'd be grateful if you could take a quick and painless survey. It should take less than five minutes, and it's completely anonymous. So please take a moment and go to www.podcast1.com slash my survey, or go to

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What's with Janet Spangs? Did she lose a bet with a weed whacker? L-O-L. And scent. Wait, no, no, no, no. Truth. It's so easy to switch and save on car insurance at geico.com. Janet, I think my phone was hacked or something. Geico, 15 minutes could save you 15% or more. On the subject of his appearance, the only thing about it is a guy who has a signature look.

He does. And that's not unique to him. Because there's that other dude who's in the documentary, the guy who hates Billy Mitchell. Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome. Oh, my God, that guy. That dude is Buck Wild. And Bucknaked.

And Buck Naked. With his transam, with the customized license plate and his captain's outfit. I don't know. I think he's pretty awesome myself. There's definitely some personalities in the video games high score community. There is zero divide. There's like, like, it's the same thing. as like late 80s

WWF. I feel like there's only about 20 people in the entire community is the feeling I get from watching that movie. I mean, it's very small. It is small, but I think it's bigger than you see in the movie.

The movie was just focused around like a couple of locations, a single game, basically. Like, you didn't get to see who the octogenarian granny is competing against for Kuberd high scores, but I bet there's a lot of drama there too. And like some heel who's like,

I'm going to stop this 80-year-old woman from breaking my score. It's some 25-year-old dude who's like, back off grandma. Exactly. I was going to say something about the director of Seth Gordon, and he recently directed Baywatch, the Baywatch remake movie, and also four Christmases, which I liked, okay. And the other one was... Oh, that was the one with Jennifer Anneson?

Didn't they have Jack Black? I think so. Vince Vaughn? Yeah, no, it was four Christmases. Yeah, okay, maybe I didn't like four Christmases. I think I've seen parts of that. Do you think you have a holiday with Jack Block? Yeah, I was thinking on the holiday.

That's a good one. I thought the holiday had Queen Latifah. No, no, no. That's another movie that might also be called The Holiday. That's the one where Queen Latifah is mistaken for a rich... I know a lot about Christmas movies. That's okay. He directed Identity Thief with Melissa McCarthy and Jason Bateman.

Which I saw that. It was okay. That seems like a promising cast. He's an executive producer of pixels. that high quality Adam Sandler vehicle. The greatest video game film of all time. But the coolest thing about Seth Gordon

is that he created a career for himself in which there is a character based on Billy Mitchell. Really? Tori Itwitani. I actually never saw it. So you were saying he made a career for himself based on what, King of Kong? Just, yeah, he started, he was on Wikipedia,

it says he taught school in Kenya, Kenya and he went to Yale University and he just started making a film while in Kenya and taught himself editing and then he ended up making that documentary and so that he ended up a feature film directory which is pretty cool but then there was another director who was like well established in the in the studios that was trying to keep him down Willie Critchell yeah I I feel like there's a there's like definitely a case of the movie feeding on itself right like getting into a cycle because I feel like if you if you start making the movie about Steve Weeby very relatable guy you know middle aged out of work you know has a kid and a wife

and just playing in his garage and it's his hobby and he his hobby is going to take him to the top and then you meet Billy Mitchell and you're like okay well obviously this guy's the villain and then everything starts you know Mitchell becomes a snowball yeah because he knows that he's going up against this guy who like everybody's going to be like see as a hero you know right And he, you know, he has people who are sort of in his orbit who have been collaborating with him and working with him for decades. And he's the known factor. Right. And they're like, you know, they're clearly on his side because they're all friends. But the movie really makes it look like a shadowy conspiracy, you know, with the, what's his name, Brian Koo? Yeah, yeah. Or whatever, co. Koo. Koo. Like walking around and like giving Steve Weeby the evil eye and like loudly sort of talking on the phone about, yeah, he could blow it any time. time. He's doing okay, but you never know Donkey Kong super random. So this could be like really

amazing, but it could be just a total flame out. We're just making fun of these people. Are we? Yeah. I don't feel like I'm making fun of it. That's pretty much what happens in the movie. That is that is a conversation he has on the phone. It's true. I feel like, you know, that is a conversation that he probably had on the phone not intending necessarily to be overheard, but the way the film frames it. The way the camera frames it and, you know, the full, work on the camera, like, where you hear him and you see Steve Webe in the background. It makes it look like he's, you know, really trying to play some sort of nasty head game, which probably wasn't the case. He might just be on the phone with somebody who's like,

okay, well, is he going to do it? And he's like, I don't know. Like, he might. He might not. Yeah, I mean, like, everyone who is in the business of getting video game high scores clearly has, like, an obsessive personality. I mean, it's just like the nature of, of their personalities. And, you know, Steve Weeby's wife says that. And the guy, what is Brian, who like, you know, is Billy Mitchell's ally in this. Like, he talks about how every day he goes to the same diner and gets the same breakfast. Like, that's, you know, that's just like his, the order in his life. And it's easy for people who kind of get into that sort of obsessive lockstep in their lives to not necessarily think about how they present themselves in like social cues and things like

that it's hard oh just watching that movie uh my wife and i watched it last night and it was hard for her to watch because it's just these guys are did she see too much of you in the garage thing incredibly enthusiastic um no just kidding i'm not a i'm not a high score chaser no i feel like score chasing is i don't know it's sort of well it's not the way i like to play video games personally so i feel that's all i'm going to say i feel like from a story structure standpoint right Again, like, no matter what it is in objective independent reality, everything fits into the story structure. And part of that is twin galaxies because they're the established power structure, right? Like, they're the, the heroes never the empire.

You know, you can't be an underdog if you've been the champion for 30 years. Apollo Creed is a great guy, but we only know that from Rocky 2 through 7. Like in the first one, he's the champion. He's the power structure. there's no way to be an underdog when you're the champion. And I feel like it all fits in so neatly, even though all you have to do is twist it just a little bit. Of course, the guy at Twin Galaxies has no reason to question Billy Mitchell. He's known him for 30 years.

If he's seen him set the score with his own eyes multiple times in person on multiple games. If Billy Mitchell, if your friend who you've known for 30 years says, hey, I did this, you have no reason to question it. it's so there's not like shift it just a little bit to the other side though it's a conspiracy it's keeping the guy down right and that's all it takes to to get people looking well that the movie is anchored from stevee's perspective it starts out like the first half hour is just hey it's steve we be hanging out in his garage teaching kids he's his baby needs his butt wiped um it's like you know a very very kind of a humble story and then you know you start to get like these evil oppressive forces invading his home and and denying his his accomplishments

and everything. But, you know, from the Twin Galaxy's perspective, here's a guy they've never heard of who just submits a videotape and says, I've done something no one else has ever done before. Like, I can see why they would question that. You have to check it out. And the fact that he did have that interaction with Captain Awesome. Like, you know, it would be easy to edit the film in a way that it's like Billy Mitchell defending his championship against Captain Awesome and his his dupe. Yeah, the, uh, the evil, the evil force that is brainwashed this innocent young man, which is, that dude is a supervillain. I love him. He's such a weirdo. I have no trouble saying that. Uh, but I feel like he is like the supervillain in the second movie. He's just

like a kind of a background force in the first one who seems like he might be on the good guy's side, but then in the second movie, he reveals himself as the true evil behind the, that dude is about a sidel up to Steve Weeby and ask him if he's heard. the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise. It's not something you'd hear from Twin Galaxies. like yeah it it's all it all fits and then that's the downfall of it right because if we're if we're casual viewers there's such a a shot in front for billy mitchell we want to see him we want to see him brought down because he ends that movie winning and then it's only in the

epilogue and the thing is ultimately in 2018 it kind of didn't matter like the who was the first to hit a million points. Obviously, that's Steve Weeby now officially. Can't take that away from him unless he was cheating. Yeah, but neither Steve nor Billy have been the high score holder for Doggy Kong in like a decade. Yeah. They're like, they were ranked like 13 and 14 respectively. Yeah. I mean, basically what Steve did was prove that, oh yeah, it's actually possible to get a higher score than Billy did. So then everyone is chasing that score. Yeah. But they're the ones we care about because they're the ones that. Right. My mom knows. Like if I say, hey, do you remember Billy Mitchell, the Ha, off guy.

Yeah, it's less interesting to be, like, the seventh guy who comes in and manages to get, like, 10,000 points more than the guy behind you. Like, who cares? And also the factor is that now there's thousands of people out there who you can crowdsource the work, you know, the analysis. There can be independent analysis from everybody that can present different things. Like the, what's the drag racing game that that guy also recently got his thing? Yeah. That guy also recently got all his scores vacated. Vacated.

Vacated. Annauld. Annald. That's a good one. Held in aband. Yeah. The ultimate nullifier struck again. Yeah. If I had written this, I feel like I would get notes.

Like, I feel like, hey, making him a hot sauce guy is way too obvious. Please revise. Hey, having it actually turn out to be fake, 10 years. On the 10th anniversary, it's a little much. Like, maybe, maybe you fold that into the original story. That seems to be the way of life these days, though. Like, that's politics. Like, everyone, you know, if I had written the current political administration for the West Wing,

people would be like, come on, no one's really that evil. They'd be like, Jeremy, come on. We've all seen Back to the Future, too. Stop riffing it off. Exactly. So, yeah. Okay, so I don't know that we necessarily accomplished anything in this hour or half hour. but I don't know, it is interesting to go back and see this movie in light of the allegations that have come out because it's, you know, having seen the movie, it's really easy to believe this because there are those little questionable things about the tape that Billy Mitchell submitted to prove that he was the first to beat a million points. And, you know, like, it's not hard to see, you know, kind of how all these things fit together. But on the other hand, I kind of wonder like what role this movie.

movie played in, you know, inspiring people to go try to find flaws in his story. Like, if this movie had not come out, would people be out there hunting? Would people have been hunting to say, like, did Billy Mitchell really, you know, be, was he really the first to beat a million points in Donkey Kong or, um, or was that just a put on? Yeah, well, we have any access to that tape if there wasn't a movie about it. Also, he may not have made the tape without the movie. Yeah. He may not have felt the need to defend himself. badly that he had to cheat to win because he's being humiliated on camera, essentially. And even the guy who discovered the, who spearheaded the debunking, I guess the tape was like,

no, like, playing on emulators is, is not like a worthless thing. Right. But it's not the same. Well, like, no, it's just that his, like, the submission he made specifically was for real hardware. So by playing on an emulator, he would have disqualified himself. Yeah. It wasn't that, like, you shouldn't play an emulator. or whatever because

it's hard to find unmodified Donkey Kong hardware in this day and age. So that's totally legitimate. It's just don't do one thing and so you've done another. Exactly. Especially if you're submitting for World Records. And especially if there's a camera crew there. Yeah.

And a grandma. Poor grandma. It's not her fault. The pawn in this whole thing. She really is. She's an unwitting victim. So yeah, anyway. So I guess the other takeaway from this movie is, I didn't realize Donkey Kong got so hard later on. Like, I've always felt like it's a pretty easy and straightforward game.

Like, challenging, sure. But I didn't realize it was so, so non-deterministic once you get past a few stages. I'll tell you, I've been a big fan of Donkey Kong since I was a kid, but I played ports of it, like for the Atari 800 and the NES port. But when you, I would go up to an arcade and say, oh, Donkey Kong, I can play this. and then I'd play it, and I'd get my ass kicked in the first board easily. So it is really punishing, difficult game, in my opinion. I feel like Jeremy saying, oh, I didn't realize Donkey Kong was that hard.

I feel like that's a prelude to Jeremy then pulling out his secret tape and being like, I mean, I broke 15 million points. Nope. I'm not a score player. I am happy to have, like, a few games that I can beat easily, and that's good enough. Yeah. Like, I beat Mega Man to, actually, Rockman, too, which does not have the game. the easy mode. I beat that while drunk in Japan a few weeks ago.

So, and I made it to Dracula in the original Castlevania, or Acumajo Dracula, if you will. Sorry, I couldn't say it with a straight face. While I was drunk, but I couldn't beat Dracula's second form while I was drunk. So we all have our limits. You're slipping me. I know. It's old age. Catching up with us. I got 200%

on somebody of the night. So what were you doing? Drunk in Japan playing Castlevania? What wouldn't I be doing drunk in Japan playing Castlevania? Yeah, I have no trouble believing that part of the story. They have video game bars there, man. You played Castlevania in a video game bar? Yeah. Wow.

I need to go to this place called Japan. It is a nice place. I think we should all three go, and I think Retronaut should pay for it. That would be awesome. Maybe in 10 years when we're a million-dollar reality TV show. Yeah, that sounds good. Chris will be the villain. I'll be the innocent, nice guy.

I would absolutely. They would slide me right into that role easily. Arcades unknown. Anyway, so yeah, okay, Donkey Kong, harder than I realized. Billy Mitchell, is he evil? I don't know. Steve Weeby, is he really that lovable? Probably.

Does it matter? No. No. In any case, I think the real takeaway here is kids just play video games and have fun. Don't go after the high scores. Unless that's how you have fun, in which case, who am I to judge? Actually, that's not much of a takeaway. Yeah, that's true.

So this episode is a waste. for listening. I'm glad we could destroy the past 40 minutes of your life. Do you guys want to add anything before we sign off? Just, I feel like King of Kong, more than being like a 100% reliable factual documentary is an incredible example of applying story structure to real life and how easy that can be sometimes and how easily audiences can be, if not manipulated, convinced that this is the way it is. And I find it, fascinating both for the events of the, of the film and the film itself in terms of structure, and that things have continued to feed on that as the years have gone.

Billy Mitchell sued a cartoon. He did? Yeah, he sued regular show. He did. Yeah. And Cartoon Network for Garrett Bobby Ferguson. Like, for all that to kind of build on itself, because that doesn't exist without this. And we're not like, oh, yeah, of course he's suing a cartoon for babies.

Like, it's fascinating how that structure. is applied to real life in a very interesting way, which is what I like about sports documentaries anyway. My last thought is that it's complicated, but it's the score metric is just a tool for the man to make you put more quarters than a machine. So you're just an unwitting pawn in a capitalist game that, uh, help me out, Chris.

No, you got it. You got it. The real villain of the King of Kong is capitalism. Yeah, capital. There you go. And we all must rise up. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I'm on board with that, actually.

actually. Video games should be free. Yes. So, no. Yeah, and I guess my final thought is kind of building on what Chris said about, you know, how easy it is to build a narrative into something like this. Like around watching King of Kong, Kat and I were also watching some of parts unknown with Anthony Bourdain and just kind of like trying to watch some of the most interesting

episodes of that. And that's a totally different approach to. to the documentary process, it's not, it doesn't have like a villain. It's more just about discovery. And I kind of wonder how much more valuable the King of Kong would have been. If it had been just about discovery, if it hadn't had to have the good guy, the bad guy. But then again, maybe just the, the nature of competition and the people involved made that impossible. Like it just had to be a competition. It had to be nasty. It had to be, you know, you know, hitting below the belt. Maybe there was just no avoiding that. Yeah. Any time there's, anytime there's a competition, you're always going to naturally gravitate to wanting someone to win. Even if you, even if it's your two favorite baseball teams,

you're going to be a little happier about one of them, you know? What if they tied? Billy Mitchell and Steve Weeby? No, your two favorite baseball teams, how are they going to ties in baseball? What if it were possible to tie, and they did? So they would be playing soccer. Okay. Yeah.

And I'm not a huge fan of soccer. All right. So I think that about wraps it up. So thanks everyone for listening. This has been a Retronauts Micro with me, Jeremy Parrish, who you can find on the internet at places like Twitter where my handle is Gamesbyte and Retronauts.com where my role is webmaster. Yes.

Chris. You can find me just by going to T-H-E-I-S-B.com. That'll have links to all the other podcasts that I do, as well as columns that I write online. and comics that I write that you can find online and at your local comic book store. And I'm Benj Edwards. You can read more of my stuff at Benjedwards.com and find me on Twitter at Benjedwards.

And if you want to hear more of these ramblings, check out other Retronauts episodes at Retronauts.com on podcast one or on things like the iTunes Music Store where you can download us for free. You can also support us with money if that's the kind of thing you'd like to do, patreon.com slash Retronauts.

capitalism is bad but on the other hand it lets me eat food so I'm in favor of it for the time being what do we got to get before the three of us go on a on a week long Japan pro trip we would need a very very generous patron 10,000 a month not quite that much but let's say that as the goal yeah yeah yeah yeah for the moon and you'll land among the stars Jeremy and retronauts east to the east to the far east okay that's something for us to all to shoot for so check us out listen to more of and we'll be back in a few days with a full episode. Goodbye. Geico presents eyewitness interviews with inanimate objects.

This is Brian Bruno, live on the scene of a recent windstorm, here to describe the event, a chest of drawers. There's a storm howling outside, so I thought I'd stay in and watch a rom-com. Five minutes into the flick, a tree branch slams through the window. Were you hurt? I just got a scratch on my chest. Your chest of drawers can't help you in a wind. storm. But the GEICO insurance agency can help you get covered for personal property damage. Call GEICO to see how affordable homeowners insurance can be.

The Mueller report. I'm Edonohue with an AP News Minute. President Trump was asked at the White House if special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation report should be released next week when he will be out of town. I guess from what I understand that will be totally up to the Attorney General. Maine Susan Collins says she would vote for a congressional resolution disapproving a President Trump's emergency declaration to build a border wall, becoming the first Republican senator to publicly back it. In New York, the wounded supervisor of a police detective killed by friendly fire was among the mourners attending his funeral. Detective Brian Simonson was killed as officers started shooting at a robbery suspect last week. Commissioner James O'Neill was among the speakers today at Simonson's funeral.

It's a tremendous way to bear knowing that your choices will directly affect the lives of others. The cops like Brian don't shy away from it. It's the very foundation of who they are and what they do. The robbery suspect in a man, police say acted as his lookout have been charged with murder. I'm Ed Donahue.