Reuters World News - Interview: John Kirby on the consequences of Washington's $95 billion security bill fight

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

Host Jonah Green and White House national security spokesperson Rear Admiral John Kirby discuss the $95 billion military aid package that's stuck in Congress and the ramifications for Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan and US allies. What are the geopolitical consequences if the security bill isn't passed and what can the White House do to protect civilians in Gaza? Visit the Thomson Reuters Privacy Statement for information on our privacy and data protection practices. You may also visit megaphone.fm/adchoices to opt out of targeted advertising. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Admiral. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. You'll often find White House National Security spokesperson John Kirby at a podium fielding questions at the Daily White House briefing. But on today's podcast, he'll join us to speak more in depth about the $95 billion military aid package that's stalled in Congress. The Republican Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, says he's in no rush to allow a vote.

The Republican-led House will not be jammed or forced into passing a foreign bill that was opposed by most Republican senators and does nothing to secure our own border. But what will be the consequences on the battlefield and in the halls of diplomacy for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan if it doesn't go through? I'm your host, Jonah Green. And just one note, we recorded our conversation before news broke on the death of Alexei Navalny, Vladimir Putin's most high-profile critic. Admiral Kirby, thank you so much for talking with us today.

I'm glad to be here. Thank you so much. So first, I think you'd be helpful to hear what's in this package at the moment. What does it do and what doesn't it do? It's about $95 billion. $60-plus billion is earmarked or dedicated for Ukraine. And then there's money in there for supporting Israel. There's money in there for humanitarian assistance, more than $10 billion. There's money in there for the Indo-Pacific.

and there's $2.5 billion in there for U.S. Central Command. For those who don't know, U.S. Central Command is our combatant command, our unified command, responsible for the Middle East. And as anybody who's looked at the headlines know, there's an awful lot going on in the Middle East right now that affects U.S. troops, U.S. ships, and U.S. facilities. The militia groups in Iraq and Syria keep firing rockets and drones at our facilities in both countries. And, of course, the Houthis continue to attack commercial shipping. in the Red Sea. And so we've got a coalition of some 20-odd nations that are working, including the United States Navy, to help defend that shipping. And of course, we're also responding aggressively to the attacks on our troops and facilities in Iraq and Syria. And so this money earmark to set aside for Central Command will help Central Command replenish the stock of inventory of munitions and weapons that we need to continue to do that. So there's a lot in there directly for our own people. And that includes the Indo-Pacific funding as we wrestle with a rash of challenges and threats across the

Indo-Pacific all the way from tensions in the Taiwan straight to, of course, the Korean Peninsula and beyond. So there's a lot in here that is able to and will help with addressing our urgent national security needs. Now, what's not in there is funding for border security. As you know, the original supplemental we submitted in October did have about $6 billion in it for border security and for some reforms that we believe need to be done. The president submitted an immigration reform bill to the Congress on his first day in office. And it's sat there untended to since then. He believes that we need to do a better job at reforming the immigration system that is

clearly broken. And he also believes that we need to bolster border security. And so what was in the original Senate negotiated deal that the House and frankly now, unfortunately, the Senate refused to move forward with had additional funds in there to give us more Border Patrol agents, to give us more asylum officers, to provide some technological capability down there to help us stem the flow of fentanyl. And that is obviously not in the Senate bill that has just passed because of the decision by certain Republicans, not to move forward on it. The president still believes that additional border security is important. But right now, we have to deal with what's in front of us. And right now what's in front of us is a Senate passed bill that does fund all those other urgent national security needs. And as the president said very clearly the other day, if it has passed in the Senate,

if it gets to his desk, he will absolutely sign it. Republicans against this bill say we should be spending money on the border and not in foreign countries. And, you know, there are Americans who agree and say we shouldn't be involved in other people's fights. What's your response to them? Well, I would note that actually on a bar bipartisan basis in the House, most representatives want to support Ukraine. Most representatives want to support Israel. And that includes the leadership, House Armed Services, House Foreign Affairs, House Intelligence. And of course, the Speaker himself

has said he wants to support Ukraine and continue to support Israel. And we believe, the President believes, that the majority of members of the House of Representatives, and, frankly, most of the American people understand that these are not some foreign wars that have no effect on us. They absolutely have an effect on our own national security. What happens in Europe, could very well buttress right up against the eastern flank of NATO, should we just walk away and let Putin take Ukraine? And if you think the cost of supporting Ukraine is high now, think about how incrementally, exponentially higher that cost is going to be,

both in blood and in treasure to the American people, if he starts attacking a NATO country, because as President's, the Biden said, we take our Article 5 commitments seriously, and we will defend every inch of NATO territory. The Ukrainians are not asking for U.S. boots on the ground, they're only asking for our continued support and help. And with that support and help over the last two years, they have done some amazing things.

They've clawed back more than 50% of the territory that Russia took in those opening months of the war. And they are brave and courageous and they're fighting still. And we've got to continue to support them. The other thing I'd say is that these Ukrainian soldiers and their commanders are making some pretty dang difficult decisions right now, as the Russians are not slowing down. and in a little town called Avdivka, there in the eastern part of the country, the Russians are closing in on Ukrainian defensive lines

and trying to take that town. And Ukrainian soldiers there in Avdifka are running out of ammunition. And their commanders are making difficult decisions every day about how much they can expend and how many lines they can continue to hold. The time is now. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the time is past now. We submitted the supplemental request back in October.

We've got to continue to support. them. If this aid doesn't come through, how long can Ukraine hold out against Russia? I mean, what's the, when did the soldiers in the ground begin to feel the effects? Or has that already happened? They're feeling it right now, sir. They're feeling it right now, as you and I are speaking. I can't give you a date certain on the calendar because every unit has a different level of resourcing than others. I mean, as is the case across any battlefront. And because they are rationing their ammunition, they are trying to buy for more time. But it's difficult to put a date certain on it.

The urgency is now. I mean, the time is now. They are desperately in need across that battlefront of more support. And you know what's tragic about this in addition to just that is that the Russians know that. And they're deliberately targeting defense industrial-based infrastructure in Ukraine. Their factories, their manufacturing capability to produce organically their own weapons and ammunition. So because the Russians, you know, want to count on the fact that the Americans are not going to come through. The West is not going to come through.

And if they can eradicate Ukraine's defense industrial base, then they can, you know, quicken and end of this war in their favor. So again, the sense of urgency we all should have right now is high. We see the tensions play out on podiums across the Capitol. But what is the White House doing behind the scenes to push us along to get this? past? There is a lot of engagement between cabinet officials here at the National Security Council with our national security advisor, Jake Sullivan, and of course the president at all levels to convey to Congress the desperate need, to answer their questions, to lay out the requirements to justify and defend the supplemental bill that we submitted in October and, of course,

to make clear that the Senate bill just passed this week, should it get to the president's desk to make it clear that he would sign it. So there's been a awful lot of conversations with Capitol Hill. And I would go so far as to say there's also been a lot of conversations with our allies and partners. Just this week, Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, held yet another Ukraine contact group meeting. He did it virtually with some 50-odd nations

to continue to talk about Ukraine's needs and how we can all collectively work together. to meet them. Unfortunately, this is the second now in a row contact group meeting that Secretary Austin was not able to convey to those 50-some odd nations around the world that the United States was still in the lead in terms of contributions. If Speaker Johnson makes good on his threat not to allow a vote on the security package, what's the plan B? We have to have appropriated funds to support Ukraine. I'm not going to get into hypotheticals or speculate about what other options there might be. We said there's no magic pot of money back in October. We need this

supplemental funding. And Bill would also aid in Israel's fight, and that comes as the international community is warning against a ground invasion in Rafah. Now, the president is under a lot of pressure from the left who is unhappy about how this war is being waged. What is the U.S. doing to prevent Palestinian civilian casualties? As you heard the president say just the other day, there's been there's been too many civilian casualties. And the right number is zero. And we continue to work closely with our Israeli counterparts and to provide our own perspectives and lessons learned about urban warfare to see what they can do to be more

precise, more careful, more deliberate, and to reduce harm to civilians and to civilian infrastructure. And they have been receptive to many of those messages. but to the degree that we're 100% satisfied, of course not. And so we're just going to continue to make that case. The president had an opportunity to speak with the Prime Minister Netanyahu yet again today. And again, stress the importance of not moving forward in Rafa, unless or until there's a credible plan to account for the now almost 1.5 million people

that are seeking refuge down there. Can I ask, what do you make of the suggestion by, former security advisor, Keith Kellogg, who said that if Trump wins, NATO could become a tiered alliance in that, you know, the members, they get only as much protection as they pay. I obviously cannot and won't speak to comments made on the campaign trail, but let me just make clear where President Biden is about NATO. He believes NATO is a cornerstone of our national security, not just on the European continent, but around the world, because NATO is more relevant and more places and across more missions than ever before. And now it's bigger alliance,

certainly in part to President Biden's strong leadership and the example that the United States has shown about our commitment to our NATO allies into Article 5. And every ally, every ally matters. Every ally brings to the alliance unique capabilities, in some cases really unique capabilities that no other nation has or can demonstrate at sea or in the air or on the ground. Every ally has a vote in how the alliance moves forward. And that's the way NATO was founded. That's the way it works. And we cherish that alliance.

And we cherish the founding principles of the alliance. And again, under President Biden's leadership, it's gotten bigger. It's gotten more relevant. And American leadership has made a big difference. and the president looks forward to continuing to demonstrate that leadership. Admiral Kirby, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. My pleasure.

Thank you. Broiter's World News is produced by Gail Issa, Tara Oakes, David Spencer, Christopher Wall, Jasper, and me, Jonah Green. Our regular host is Kim Vennel. Carmel Crimmons is our senior producer. Lila DeCretzer is our executive producer. Engineering, sound design, and music composition by Josh Summer. To be sure you know what's going on in your world, listen in for 10 minutes each weekday. And don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or download the Roiders app.