Reuters World News - What Israel faces in Hamas’ tunnels

Episode Date: October 28, 2023

This special episode is an extended interview with correspondent Jonathan Saul and host Kim Vinnell. Together, they explore Hamas' tunnel network under Gaza. Hundreds of miles long and up to 80 yards deep, it's described as the "Viet Cong times 10" by one Israeli security source. Jonathan reports on what we know so far about Israel's strategy to combat Hamas in the network one freed hostage has described as a spider's web. Visit the Thomson Reuters Privacy Statement for information on our privacy and data protection practices. You may also visit megaphone.fm/adchoices to opt out of targeted advertising. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Surrounded by cameras and microphones, 85-year-old Yoshavid Lishvitz describes her experience as a hostage of Hamas. There are a huge network of tunnels underneath. It looks like a spider web. Her daughter Sharon translates her vivid description of Hamas's tunnels in Gaza, tunnels that have been years in the making. A sprawling underground network, say experts like Nomi Bah Yaakov. It's a town. They have a town underground that they are in control of, not the Israeli army.

And undoubtedly, they're setting traps for the Israeli soldiers. With danger for Israel's ground troops in every square foot, according to former US Middle East envoy, Dennis Ross. They like to deploy themselves under mosques, under hospitals, in tunnels that are all booby-trap, in the densest populated areas. Today, I interview Jonathan Saul in Jerusalem, who is part of a Reuters team investigating this labyrinth. Jonathan lays out what we know about the Hamas tunnels and how Israeli forces are preparing to deal with them

in an expected ground invasion. I'm Kim Vinal. So Jonathan, just start by describing these tunnel networks for me. What are the Israelis going to face when they go? go in? The Israeli forces are expected to face huge challenges from the labyrinthine tunnel network that's been established by Hamas over anything up to 20 to 25 years. It's been a massive project involving huge amounts of investment and effort by Hamas. The tunnels themselves span anything up to hundreds of kilometers. And some indications that I have from my security sources are they

could be as much as between 80 to 100 meters deep in certain places. We know that one of the few hostages that has been released described it as a spider's web and one contact of mine described it as the Viet Cong times 10. If we recall back in the Vietnam War days, the Viet Cong we're using tunnels. This is a much more sophisticated network. In your report, you described the various types of tunnels, attack tunnels and some are used for storage. Can you talk me through, I the different parts of this network? Yes, essentially. So there are different aspects of the tunnels,

and one of the conduits has been described by the Israelis as Gaza's metro. It's an entire underground city. That's more for the transport and logistics side and also storage areas where they keep their rocket launches, where they keep their main operations. Otherwise, they also use tunnels to smuggle in vital equipment, primarily from the border with Egypt in a place called Rafa. They've also got what they call attack tunnels.

These are the sort of paths and conduits into Israel that Israel's southern border that the communities they have feared for many years. In fact, in years gone by, local residents were describing the noise of scratching and tapping noises until Israeli forces intervened back in 2021 and before that 2014 in various missions to try and stop the flow of tunnels, which they've not succeeded in doing. Yeah, you also mentioned Egypt. Surely Israel and Egypt have tried to detect and destroy these tunnels. What kind of efforts have been made? It's a very sensitive issue, the border area between Israel and Egypt. And while there's a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel, when it comes to the border era, there's not been much progress. In fact, in many ways, Israel has felt frustrated by the lack of proper intervention by Egypt and controlling the border area. they've not really intervened enough to try and control or constrain the activities from Egypt,

into Gaza, through the tunnel network. I've also heard from some sources as mine that it's also very difficult for them to do so. What about the Israeli efforts to try and destroy these tunnels over the years or to stop them from being built? Given the huge extent and expanse of the tunnels, what Israel's tried to do is it's trying to concentrate and pinpoint certain areas. They've had some success, but it's really a case of looking at small amounts of action, given the huge expanses we're talking about. And every time there's a pause in activity by the Israeli military after they finish their military action, Hamas is successfully able to rebuild areas of the tunnels. The assessment I've got to date has been that there's not really been a conclusive, comprehensive

action by the Israelis to really stop the tunnel network. It's not something they've been able to do. So is a ground invasion going to be fought in the tunnels or is Hamas going to use the tunnels to sort of pop up in various areas and fight actually on the ground? This is one of the critical questions that's asked at the moment and it's quite difficult to get any readout of Israel's battle plans. But certainly one of the key issues at play at the moment is to whether and what extent Israeli forces will have to go in to destroy the tunnels. it's a very difficult operation. It involves a lot of factors which I can outline. Yeah, please do. The tunnels, as we've been discussing, are huge.

The expanse is massive, but they also face multiple problems. Partly given the nature and the readiness of Hamas and by extension other groups in Gaza, including Islamic Jihad, they face a number of issues, including booby-trapped locations, sophisticated weaponry, including what I understand as thermobaric weapons, which have a lot more firepower, anti-tank weapons potentially able to hit any sort of forces and also armor that might be above surface. One of the issues that Israel is also basing, according to a couple of specialist geologists, is that they don't really have a proper readout on the tunnels because they're unable, obviously, to enter them in their entirety. But also, they're unable to take aerial analysis using 3D.

imagery. And that's another reason why essentially it literally is a black hole when they go in there. And then there's also the issue of Israeli hostages somewhere in the tunnels too, right? Yes, exactly. So the indications we have from the release hostage is that it's likely that there are going to be many hostages that are being held underground. And that's going to be a huge challenge to navigate for Israeli forces and Israel itself. Do they give the decision for their forces to go in and engage in heavy combat when there might be Israeli hostages used as human shields, or even worse, they might actually be killed during the operations. You spoke about Hamas preparing for years, but the Israelis have also been preparing, right?

There are specific Israeli units tasked with going into these tunnels. Tell us what your reporting shows about that. Yeah, so Israeli forces are trained in basic warfare, underground warfare, but Israel has developed and advanced specialist units within their combat engineering corps. One of the units in particular is called Yahalam. It's a specialist subunit of the combat engineers made up of commandos. Their role is specializes in discovering, clearing, destroying tunnels. They're also known as the weasels because their work is subterranean in many ways.

They are probably the best specialists to do this type of fighting. But at the same time, it's unclear. to what extent they're really going to be able to get to grips with the extent and nature of tunnel warfare that will be presented. This is going to be a much bigger operation as far as we understand. And according to all the statements that be made by Israeli officials and the military, they're looking at a comprehensive defeat of Hamas, and it's most likely that they will have to engage aggressively in the tunnel network, the outcome of which is still unknown. I'm wondering if there's any examples from history or lessons to be learned from history.

You mentioned the Viet Cong. Are there any lessons that the Israelis will be taking into this from looking in the past and other types of tunnel warfare? One of the other issues that's come out in the past few years has obviously been a conflict in the Middle East elsewhere involving ISIS, otherwise known as Daesh, and also Syria, and also Hezbollah. His Balah was very adept at using tunnel warfare for their own conflict with Israel, but particularly ISIS has also engaged aggressively in underground conflict. Those lessons, I understand, have been passed on through networks to Hamas, to be able to get to grips and understand their experiences in fighting. I believe also U.S. officials have been warning Israel as well about their experiences

in places like Mosul in northern Iraq. involving, again, underground warfare. So all these lessons will be taught and disseminated to both sides, whether or not it will have any influence or impact upon the operational decisions, their ability to actually counter the challenges that they face, both on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, remains to be seen. I just wanted one more question, Jonathan, about the logistics in terms of communication in the tunnels and airflow and electricity.

So what I've discovered according to sources is that the tunnels themselves, while they might seem labyrinthine and subterranean, are actually very developed and very advanced. According to the info that I have, Hamas is able to have proper communications networks, it has electricity and even air conditioning below in many parts of the tunnels.

So in that respect, they are highly geared up, highly efficient and highly able and capable to sustain operations through communications networks. The big question is whether Israel will be able to disrupt that through jamming or other procedures, which means that communication systems will go down. Amongst Israeli forces, Israeli forces have very sophisticated communications networks, and they will be exploiting using those as well. Do we know if the aerial bombardment has impacted these tunnels? My information to date has been that while the ground part of Gaza has sustained heavy, heavy losses and heavy damage, according to the information I have so far, there's been minimal impact upon the tunnels.

And I think Hamas is cognizant of this. And according to their strategy in recent years, they've worked on the basis of that, that they've tried to build their tunnels that are essentially bomb-proof. To what extent Israel has been using cluster bombs is unclear. But I think even those would be difficult to actually penetrate the deeper recesses of the underground networks. A special thanks to Jonathan Saul for being so generous for this time and all the reporters and editors who are covering the tensions in the Middle East.

This interview was produced by Tara Oaks and David Spencer. We'll be back on Monday with our daily show. Listen in every weekday for everything you need to know about your world. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform or down the the Reuters app.