Rev Left Radio - A Coup in Venezuela: Imperialism, Fascism, and Class War

Episode Date: February 12, 2019

Mike Prysner, from the Empire Files and the Eyes Left podcast, joins Breht to discuss the current coup attempt in Venezuela.  Find and support the Empire Files here: http://theempirefiles.tv/ Find and support Eyes Left podcast here: https://soundcloud.com/eyesleft Outro music by: No Thanks - Skull Clinic Find, support, and get rowdy to more of their music https://no-thanks.bandcamp.com Get Rev Left Radio Merch (and genuinely support the show by doing so) here: https://www.teezily.com/stores/revleftradio -------------- Our logo was made by BARB, a communist graphic design collective! You can find them on twitter or insta @Barbaradical. Please reach out to them if you are in need of any graphic design work for your leftist projects!  Intro music by Captain Planet. You can find and support his wonderful music here:  https://djcaptainplanet.bandcamp.com --------------- Rev Left Spin-Off Shows: Red Menace (hosted by Breht and Alyson Escalante; explaining and analyzing essential works of revolutionary theory and applying their lessons to our current conditions): Twitter: @Red_Menace_Pod Audio: http://redmenace.libsyn.com  Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdxX5eqQyk&t=144s Hammer and Camera (The communist Siskel and Ebert):  Twitter: @HammerCamera http://hammercamera.libsyn.com ---- Please Rate and Review Revolutionary Left Radio on iTunes. This dramatically helps increase our reach. Support the Show and get access to bonus content on Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/RevLeftRadio Follow us on Twitter @RevLeftRadio This podcast is officially affiliated with The Nebraska Left Coalition, the Nebraska IWW, Socialist Rifle Association (SRA), Feed The People - Omaha, and the Marxist Center. Join the SRA here: https://www.socialistra.org/

Hello everybody and welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. I'm your host and Comrade Bred O'Shea, and today we have on Mike Prysner from the Empire Files and Eyes Left podcast to talk about the current situation happening in Venezuela. For those who want a deeper dive into the history of Venezuela, we encourage you to listen to our old episode, Venezuela in Crisis, Defending the Bolivarian Revolution with George Sycorrhizabeth. Lamar. That should give you a good historical context for this episode. But with that said, let's move straight to our episode on Venezuela with our guest, Mike Prysner. So my name is Mike Prisner. I'm currently the producer and co-writer of the show Empire Files with Abby Martin, which

was when it started for a couple years on the Telesaur English network. But now we've been independent for a little over a year after U.S. sanctions prevented us from receiving any of funding from Venezuela or any of the partner countries with Venezuela. I'm also the host of a podcast called Eyes Left with Afghanistan veteran named Spencer Rapone. I'm myself and I'm an Iraq war veteran. And since got out of the army in 2005, we've been active in the anti-war movement in particular encouraging active duty service members to refuse orders to Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria and now Venezuela, unfortunately. Yeah. And then I, you know, as part of my work with empire files, I've had the privilege of being able to do on-the-ground investigations

and various parts of the world, and in particular, Palestine, Colombia, Ecuador, and more recently Venezuela, where I was in 2017, the last time there was a real effort by the United States to have an undemocratic coup seized with violence, and I was there for a month in the heat of all of that. And so, you know, my understanding of what's going on today is kind of informed by that last failed attempt

of the right-wing to seize power in the country. Yeah, and I really just want to say up top that, you know, I'm a big fan of Empire Files. I'm a huge fan of you and Abby's work, and then I's Left podcast, your emphasis on veterans and sort of taking that angle and approach to left politics is super interesting and unique and important. So all around, I'm really happy to have you on the show. I guess the best way to start talking about this is maybe go a little bit deeper with some of your experiences in Venezuela on the ground with the Empire Files. Why did you go? How long were you there? and what were some of, like, the main experiences that you remember from that time?

Sure. Well, we were there in, I would say, the summer, September round of 2017, which was the height of the deadliest protest that had happened yet in the country. I mean, we know that since Travis took power, there's been attempts over to the government, the first coup being in 2002. But subsequently, there is these protest movements that were backed by the United States and led by a right-wing opposition that had, the intention of creating the appearance of a humanitarian crisis, authoritarian government. And so not believing they could really take power on their own, but eliciting a response from international powers to intervene and help this protest movement take power. I mean, the first was in 2014. Dozens of people were killed. But then in 2017, it really picked up

again. And over 100 people died over the course of that three-month period. And that's when we went. And the reason we went is because, you know, it was pretty heavily covered by the U.S. media, the fact that these protests were happening. And not just mainstream media, but so-called alternative sources, you know, like vice media was there on the ground. You know, how you have your kind independent Twitter celebrities on the ground in the protests and things like that. And there is this depiction that it was like, you know, it was like the Arab Spring. It was these justified peaceful protesters standing up against like a militarized police state and putting their body on the line and being massacred by this militarized police state because they were fighting

dictatorship and starvation and all of these things. And so, you know, we really went with an open mind, you know, not with a, you know, really not really understanding what was going on fully because, of course, we weren't there. And there's only so much you can understand from a distance. And so we went really to just fact check all of these things that we were being told in the media, the fact that there was starvation in the country and unable to get any food, that there is a repressive government where there is no free press, opposition media was shut down, and of course that there was a peaceful protest movement that was being severely repressed by an authoritarian government. So we went to deceive those things for ourselves, and of course

to try to talk to people that we felt weren't being talked to in the media at all, in particular people that supported the government, of which we knew there was some section of the population that supported the government, given that there is quite a lot of elections in Venezuela. But of course, those were never seen. And so there's so many different things I could talk about from that. We were there for one month, not just in Caracas, but in some of the rural areas in the countryside as well. And so a variety of experience, but the one thing that I will say was the most striking was that the big depiction in the U.S. media was that there is just this protest movement that was noble, heroic, brave, and they were just being cut down with live ammunition. As soon as we got into these protests, it was immediately became a life or death situation,

not because we feared stray bullets were being fired on from state forces, but because the level of violence employed by the opposition and really the political character of the opposition protesters, not just that they were using violence as a tactic, but it was a kind of extreme far-right, fascistic, hostile, not just to government supporters, to darker-skinned people, but also, journalists. And so we very quickly found ourselves in a position where we were having to hide our identity in this protest because it was guaranteed if they found out that we were pro-government journalists, we would have been killed. And in fact, just a week later, they tried to kill

one of our colleagues at Telesur reporter who was shot in the bed. They were ambushed, pinned down by gunfire explosives. One of them was shot in the back. The whole camera team was like nearly killed. Another global vision reporter who is another, you know, considered a pro-government outlet was doused in gasoline and almost set on fire. Of course, there's about three people that were set on fire around that same time by opposition protesters. So that real kind of stark contrast with what we were being fed by the mainstream media versus like the extreme terror of being in the middle of that situation. It was, you know, the most striking thing for me and really said a lot about not just the political character of the opposition there, but the entire

manufacturing of a picture that was being created by the U.S. media and the politicians. Yeah, exactly. And obviously that depiction of events and that depiction of the opposition is just brave freedom fighters for democracy is still something being marshaled this time around to support this coup. And again, this opposition, you know, is known for bombing campaigns, for burning Chavistas in the street, oftentimes racialized attacks and assassination attempts. Coos have happened ever since Hugo Chavez took power in the late 90s. I mean, There was a U.S.-backed, you know, coup with the opposition trying to overthrow Ugo Chavez, and they've been sporadic ever since then and here is sort of culminating once again.

But is it correct that you and Abby receive death threats after that Empire Files episode on Venezuela aired? Yeah, you know, it was even before we were able to put out the episode. We kept hidden that we were there. You know, we didn't make anything public on social media. We weren't public with who we were when we were in the country, when we were in opposition areas, of course. But eventually, some elements of the opposition got win that we were there. I think because we were requesting interviews with opposition politicians. I mean, we weren't just trying to show the pro-government side.

We wanted to hear from opposition protesters and figures about what their grievances were. And we wanted to betray them fairly alongside people who are pro-government. But just by us contacting the opposition leaders and requesting an interview, we believe that they got win that we were there. And very quickly, there is this, like, death threat campaign that spread predominantly over social. media, but led by, like, the top opposition academics and top opposition politicians spreading our pictures around. And it wasn't just that we were supposedly pro-government journalists, which wasn't our job at all. We're independent journalists who just had a show on Telesaur. But it wasn't just saying that we were, you know, sympathetic to the government

journalists. They were saying that we, in fact, were employed as spies for the Maduro government. And our job was not to be out there interviewing people. It was to get people's identity. And then we were taking people's photos and video of opposition people we interviewed, then turning them over to the police, and then those people were being arrested and tortured and killed based on our intelligence gathering. So that was the story that was put out about me and Abby. And so very quickly, we were not able to go out to opposition areas or demonstrations anymore. And the funny thing is, we came back to the United States. We live here in Los Angeles, and the death threats followed us here. And I spoke at a report back meeting

at a community church in Los Angeles and I show up and there's about 40 right wing Venezuelans outside trying to get me. So it even followed us back to the United States. Well I mean although I mourn all the people lost and you know hurt and killed by the opposition I am glad that both of you are still safe and

that was a harrowing experience but you know it's what happens when you actually get on the ground and do that sort of you know on the ground investigative reporting that the Empire Files is so known for. So yeah I'm just glad both of you are okay but but moving on and sort of talking about what's happening now, can you summarize what is currently happening in Venezuela

for those who may not be caught up with this situation this time around? Yeah, and to do that, I just want to really briefly kind of give the whole snapshot because it is important. It does play into the kind of long-term strategy that we're seeing play out now. We know that since Chavez was democratically elected, you know, in a big landslide, you know, biggest turnout ever in the country and took power in 1999,

This is after his popularity was quite large, you know, that Chavez tried to stage a left-wing military coup with a faction of socialist and left-wing officers and enlisted soldiers in the military. They tried to launch a coup against a fascist government that was actually an authoritarian dictatorial government that was massacring protesters in the streets. But that act that failed coup made Chavez so popular in the country that every person running for president when Chavez was in jail, every single candidate had to promise. to pardon Chavez as a campaign promise. Otherwise, they stood no chance of getting elected. So every candidate in the subsequent presidential election when he was in jail promised as their first act to pardon Chavez. And of course, so he was pardoned and then ran in the next election and then won in a massive victory. And that put the country on a completely different path. They rewrote the constitution, the Bolivarian constitution, but in a democratic way where every single person

from the poorest barrios had a say in what was going to be in the constitution, debating it, proposing amendments, voting on it democratically, and all of that. And of course, the country was transformed from one where all of the wealth was held in a small number of hands to where it was fairly redistributed. And many millions of people were lifted out of poverty, taught to read, given sight, all of these different really monumental, like unparalleled social achievements in the country. But of course, as soon as that process started, the counter-revolution started, where the United States and its allies, the former, you know, point one percent in Venezuela, which still exist. They're still billionaires. Most of the businesses are still

privately owned, wielding all of their power to try to take power back from the Chavismo movement. But the thing is, is that the Chavismo movement awakened, you know, it was a sleeping giant. It was the masses of working class and poor people in the country who all of a sudden weren't just given these bread and butter things like schools and health care, but were empowered. We're given actual political power. It remains today and was from that moment on a poor people's government. And so it wasn't so easy to take power because there was this mass movement that existed. And so their first coup attempt was in 2002. It lasted just about 48 hours before the masses of people and people in the military overturned it.

Within that 48 hours, the right wing dissolved the National Assembly, dissolved the parliament, dissolved the executive branch, and got rid of about 50 different social rights and social programs that were built into the Constitution and reprivatized the oil. So they really showed their hand there. But once they realized that the coup in 2002 was unsuccessful because such a small percentage of the population wanted it, they went on this path of trying to win the elections back from Chavismo. And so for the last, you know, 20 years, there have been about 24 elections in Venezuela. Venezuela is a country with a large number of elections. There's a high degree of electoral participation and democracy in a very seriously auditable and observed election system.

But in those 24 elections over the past 20 years, the opposition was only able to have a victory in two of them. So the Chavistas won 22 out of 24 elections and 20 years. The only two victories the opposition had was defeating a constitutional referendum in, I think, 2004, and winning the National Assembly majority in 2015. But every other time, they were just completely crushed in the elections by this new social force that was Chavismo. And so that, so then the plans for regime change began to change because they clearly could not win the Battle of Democracy. And so it began to shift back to having to take power through. And they couldn't take it themselves. They needed international help to do so.

And so to do that, they had to start to create this narrative that there is one, a humanitarian crisis that demanded intervention, but also that there is a dictatorship that the elections were illegitimate. The president was illegitimate. And therefore, there needed to be some kind of foreign intervention. to install the real legitimate government in the country, which was, of course, the opposition. And so that brings us to today because many people were surprised when Wido announced himself as president because there was just a presidential election in 2018. The reason that Maduro won in such a landslide in that election is because the opposition boycotted the presidential election.

And this was their strategy from, you know, a year prior to that election, was that when the new presidential election comes, we are not going to run. So Maduro runs unopposed because they know that they couldn't beat him in the election. And then after the victory of Maduro, they would say this election was illegitimate. He ran unopposed. We need the United States to come and implement the correct president. The plan kind of got screwed up because this opposition figure in the MUD, which is the opposition coalition, Henry Falcone, announced his candidacy for president.

The White House and the opposition immediately were calling him saying drop out of the election. You're ruining our plan. The MUD expelled him for running the election. But nonetheless, he ran along with two other opposition candidates against Maduro, and Maduro won by about four million votes. And so this plan started back then. Their plan was to boycott the election, say he was illegitimate, and then declare the president of the National Assembly, the legitimate president to be installed through foreign intervention means. This is a plan that was hatched by a very small number of people. In fact, it was revealed, I believe, by the Washington Post that only four people in the National Assembly knew that they were going to announce Juan White.

Doe as president. So it wasn't even like the entire opposition National Assembly had come up with this plot and then we're executing it. It was just a small cabal of people in National Assembly. In fact, Juan Wido didn't want to do it. He was the head of the National Assembly. He didn't want to put his neck out there because it was under extremely adverse circumstances. He knew he would very likely, you know, end up like in jail or house arrest or something for doing something illegal like launching a coup. But apparently it was the phone call from Mike Pence the day before in that little video message she released online that convinced Wido to go through with it, saying, we got your back, we're going to take this all the way, announce yourself as president,

and we got you. And so Juan Wido announced himself president at an opposition demonstration. Of course, he was prodded by the United States, immediately recognized by the United States. And then that began the situation we're seeing today is where you have the imperialist countries and their surrogates in the international community recognizing Wido, the big power and the OAS. And then you have, you know, this, this creation of a false government, but alongside that, the heavy implementation of economic attacks from the U.S. and the capitalist inside the country to further exacerbate the crisis to say that there needs to be, you know,

the opposition knows they can't take power on their own. They need some kind of foreign assistance to install them into power. And so that takes us to today. I mean, this is someone, again, Wido is known until about like one in five Venezuelans, if that, so someone who is not not only not popular, but just not known at all as an individual. And so I think right now it's been a waiting game because now they're just waiting to be put in power by the United States or by surrogates in Colombia or Brazil because, you know, they can't, they can't assume power on their own. So that's, it seems to be the game plan at the moment. Yeah, absolutely. And we have, we have an episode with George Sicorello Marr that we recorded, I think,

a year ago that's called Defending the Bolivarian Revolution. So if people are interested in learning more about the history leading up to this event. You know, I'd encourage people to go to go check that one out. George Sicorella Marr is obviously a very prominent and essential voice on this topic on the U.S. left. And so before we move on to talking more about who Juan Guado is exactly, maybe we should touch on Elliot Abrams and John Bolton because they are, you know, the sort of the architects behind this. You know, Elliot Abrams is famous for being the architecture of the U.S. imperialist policy in the 80s

in Latin America and John Bolton is this bloodth. thirsty neocon warhawk, who is now national security advisor to Trump. So can you talk about some of the key players in the Trump administration really pushing for this move against Venezuela? Yeah, you know, I think Elliot Abrams is, you know, kind of like the biggest indicator of how far they're willing to take this policy. I mean, as you said, Elliot Abrams was known for being the architect of, you know, the Iraq War of the 80s, which was the dirty wars in Latin America. but in particular, you know, he orchestrated the smuggling of arms to right-wing fascists under the guise of aid. And so today there's every mainstream media outlet is saying how terrible that Maduro won't allow aid into the country.

They're just sitting there at the Colombian border and people need them. The guy that is leading this operation is the guy who did the very same thing in Latin America in the 80s. But there were guns in those aid shipments, just as we know that the Venezuelan government has discovered large amounts of weapons in the age shipments coming. to the country already. But it's not just that, is that it's not just that Elliot Abrams, you know, use this kind of shady arm smuggling policy. But Elliot Abrams backed forces in Latin America that were akin to ISIS. I mean, the things that they would do, I mean, like a crucifying children, beheading people, like mass rapes of entire villages. These were the types of things that the U.S. backed forces in Nicaragua and Guatemala were carrying out. And Elliot Abrams was the one in the

ear of the president and the politics of the White House defending this, saying that it doesn't matter what they do because nothing is more important than defeating communism in the Cold War. And so who cares that our allies are taking children and hanging them from trees and cutting their heads off? I mean, they're doing God's work of saving Latin America from communism. And so those are the types of people that he associates with. And Elliot Abrams was backing Rios Mont. Mont was convicted of genocide in an international court. convicted of genocide. And so Elliot Abrams was a partner to Rios Mont. So you could say that Elliot Abrams is himself a party to committing genocide in the eyes of the international community

and an international tribunal. And so that's who he is. And to the fact that he's up there now talking about human rights in Venezuela is just unbelievable. And of course, I mean, John Bolton is just so surreal, you know, for me in particular, having been to the Iraq War, because this is a guy that was the architect of a war that's now seen as like, the greatest foreign policy disaster of our lifetime, but one of the biggest war crimes of our lifetime as well. I mean, the biggest, you know, catastrophe of the modern era was the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. And so to trust these people is that people that care about human rights, kind of unquestioningly in the mainstream media, it's quite bizarre, but I think

that besides the optics of it, the fact that these are the people they intentionally brought in to the planning to execute this plan is worrisome. And, you know, recent, The last thing I'll say is recently, you know, it was Trump said that, you know, Maduro had asked him into a dialogue when the coup was announced. And Trump said, we said no, because we're already too far along with the plan. And so what he was referring to too far along with the plan, it seems that they decided when this was initiated, we're going to take this all the way to a full regime change operation of whatever it takes. Exactly. And in Brazil, the election of the fascist Jaya Bolsonaro, he was inaugurated in early January. And I think it was John Bolton. who immediately reached out to Bolsonaro after his inauguration and basically talked to Bolsonaro about clearing the way with Brazil for this attack on Venezuela, because Brazil obviously is the second largest country in the Western Hemisphere and is a big major player in Latin America. And so, you know, the election of a fascist in Brazil then turns around and helps U.S. imperialists attack Venezuela.

So, you know, it's really all connected. Yeah. And in Colombia as well. I mean, Brazil was a huge piece of the puzzle. Colombia, I mean, we know the far right is often in power. the fact that the far right party took power back in Colombia, you know, very against the peace deal with the FARC and all of that. The very first trip that the new president of Colombia did was went straight to Washington, D.C. to discuss a plans for the region, the cooperation in the region, of course, Venezuela, bordering Colombia, being a big part of that. So we have, right, the fascist administration of Donald Trump, and then in Brazil and Colombia also having far right fascist victories as well.

That's the real troika of tyranny in the region. Exactly. So the last player, the last major player in this whole scenario is, of course, Juan Guido. So where did he come from? And who is backing his weird claim to the presidency right now? Well, you know, it's funny because Juan Wido really is kind of just like a surrogate or puppet for Leopoldo Lopez. I mean, Leopoldo Lopez is the longtime opposition leader in Venezuela, founder of the Popular Will Party. Of course, Juan Wido is a founding member of the Popular Will Party as well. But Leopoldo Lopez has no more claims to, to be president because the guy's like been convicted of serious crimes and is on house arrest now, not prison, but house arrest. He was a part of the 2002 coup. In fact, was in charge of kidnapping government officials and then I was convicted of causing dozens of deaths in 2014 when he was calling for violent attacks on government officials and government supporters. But so he's kind of was mentored by Leopoldo Lopez, who was a far right politician in Venezuela, He's, of course, been working with the U.S. and been funded by the U.S.

But Juan Wado himself, I mean, he's much more known in the United States than he is in Venezuela. He went to George Washington University, of course, an elite private school. He went to private business school in Caracas. But when he was at George Washington University, he actually studied under a former IMF director. I mean, this was his other mentor, not just Leopoldo Lopez, but in the United States. It was a former director of the IMF teaching him private business school types of stuff. And so that's where he comes from ideologically. Juan Wido also was part of the, of course, the violent wing, militant wing of the protest movement in Venezuela over the years.

So back in 2014, he was a frontline demonstrator. And it's interesting because he kind of came into political life around a struggle that was led by Leopoldo Lopez and others in the right-wing opposition around this supposed media censorship of a company called RCTV. Now, of course, we always hear that the guns. government in Venezuela shuts down media outlets that are critical of the government. Me and Abby found when we were there with Empire files that most of the media is not only privately owned, but anti-government in Venezuela. But they built a struggle around this one case of a television station called RCTV not having its license renewed, its media license.

And the reason was because RCTV was literally calling for the assassination of the president repeatedly on air. And so you'd think that if there's a news station in the United States calling for Trump to be assassinated openly, that they would not just lose their license eventually, they would probably be shut down immediately. And so they turn this non-renewal of the media license of RCTV into this struggle about dictatorship and repression. And so that's where his political legacy is, is coming from that kind of manipulating facts to create the appearance that there's a dictatorship and trying to cease power through undemocratic means. And so one way to has been very open about the fact that he is

partner to the U.S. in this. He's even said that he's willing to authorize U.S. military intervention, which he, of course, doesn't have any legal right to do in Venezuela or the United States, but that just shows the character of him. And they've said quite clearly what their plan is for the country. And their very first thing is to reprivatize Venezuela's oil. So it's very just kind of plain on its face, what the kind of era they want to usher in. Exactly. There's two things that you have to do in order for the U.S. to basically support and, you know, you know, not attack you, and that is keep your markets open to private investment and corporate control of resources. And the second thing is not to challenge U.S. imperial hegemony on the global

stage. And if you do both of those things, you will automatically be attacked by the United States in every fashion and as intensely as they possibly can do. And here's another example of that. But speaking of the CIA, the U.S. government, all of that, in what ways have the CIA, the U.S. government, and the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, along with, you know, their reactionary supporters, attempted to sabotage the Venezuelan economy in order to blame socialism and put intense pressure on Maduro and his government. Yeah, I mean, it's such a multi-pronged assault. And, you know, it's like I've, I've even heard, you know, there's this thing going around

where the left is putting too much weight on the sanctions and they're trying to just blame the sanctions for all of Maduro's economic failures and there's so many deep problems in Venezuela, the sanctions can't be all of it, right? And it's true. I mean, no one is saying that the sanctions are the only thing that's causing problems in the country. It's an assault from so many angles, both internal and external. So just looking at the United States, I mean, of course, the sanctions have been serious. You know, Obama implemented sanctions, but not that many. Trump really came in and hit the gas and has implemented dozens and dozens of new sanctions on the country that, of course, affect average people. Of course, they say it's just government officials. But the types of things that the sanctions do is, for example, The Maduro government purchased tens of millions of dollars worth of insulin to be shipped into the country, paid for it. And then when that plane full of insulin is waiting to go into Venezuela from Europe or whatever, the United States prevents it from getting into the country through its economic blockade. And so that's just an example of how it can play out. It's not just that money is prevented for getting in, things like that.

It's actual shipments of medicine. And then, of course, they use the lack of medicine as a reason for humanitarian intervention. So the sanctions have that kind of impact of preventing specific things from getting in, but also it's the income of the country is severely affixated, right? So like, you know, Citgo, which is owned by the Venezuelan government operates in the United States. Citgo has not been able to send any of their profits to Venezuela for all the profits it's making in the United States because of U.S. sanctions. So these entire sectors of income, oil income that the country has, that they, of course, be using to alleviate the crisis. and things like that, it's completely cut, completely cut off through these U.S. sanctions. And so that's one of the aspects.

But another one is that, you know, any country, Venezuela is a rich country, right? And just because oil has dropped recently doesn't mean that its vast oil reserves don't mean something in terms of like credit, right? So any country that has a vast amount of oil reserves, in Venezuela's case, the largest amount of oil reserves in the world, if there is a dip in oil prices, that country, any other country would be able to go to any other country in the world and say, hey, oil price is low right now, but we have this vast reserves of oil. Give us a line of credit so we can continue functioning how we normally would economically. And then we have all of this oil to back it up.

And so you're going to get your money back on this credit. That's what any normally functioning country would be able to do. And it would be a pretty standard thing, standard course of action when you have a dip in oil prices. But Venezuela is not allowed to do that. Anytime they go out, to try to seek a line of foreign credit from any other country. Their lines are cut off by both the U.S. penalties on those countries and from the opposition politicians sabotaging the deals. And so it's one of those things where just if the oil prices could have fallen lower than where they are now, any other country in Venezuela situation would not be in the type of crisis

they're in, were it not for the blocking of the extension of foreign credit into the country. And then really the last thing I'll say in terms of the economic sabotage, It's a kind of manufactured story of shortages, right, where there's no food in the country. I saw myself, there's plenty of food in the country. There's plenty of products of all types that you'll need. But there's shortages of particular items like diapers, like toilet paper, like cooking oil, like flour, things that are essentials that you need for cooking and so forth. But like I said before, most of the companies are privately owned and they're not just privately owned. They're privately owned by very rich capitalists and billionaires who have.

hate the Bolivarian government and who want to overthrow it. And so of course, they're using all of their power in the economy to prevent these products from the market. In fact, the government's even paying for them, right? They'll pay for the import of 50 tons of rice, and then these capitalists who are in charge of it will either hoard it

in their warehouse, smuggle it across the border of the Columbia, destroy it, whatever. And so there's just so many different things that you could point to you, but all of them combined together of course is creating such a serious situation for the country. But it's, in most ways, it's completely manufactured. Yeah, exactly. And there's that old saying, I think it was Henry Kissinger, who said it,

like, I think it was regarding Chile and Allende, back in the day, about, you know, the U.S. teaming up with the local bourgeoisie of whatever country they're interested in toppling and, quote, unquote, making the economy scream. And this is the way that, that economic, you know, sort of sabotage is done. And then, you know, the U.S. points at Venezuela and says, see, socialism doesn't work. And then liberals and conservatives and centrist all across the spectrum just eat it up once again and here we are. Yeah, you know, actually I will, sorry to cut you off. I did want to mention one thing about that is because it's funny because that that's the claim, right, that socialism doesn't work and this is the proof. But when you really look at what the country has done over the past 20 years,

even though oil prices have fallen, right, they have dramatically increased their productive capacity in GDP every year. I mean, skyrocketed since the Bolivarian government took power. though they're in this type of oil recession, they still increase the amount of social spending in relation to income every single year, even in the economic crisis. Their unemployment rate is like about 6%. A country in a severe economic crisis does not have an unemployment rate that's like lower than the United States. I mean, so it's not actually an economic crisis. It's an economic war. There are these different avenues of attack. But even in the midst of all of these insanely adverse things, they still, the social programs are on the March.

forward. They are expanding. They're expanding their productive forces. And so if anything, it's been an example of how socialism works, because even under the worst types of attacks, it's still succeeding in so many ways. It's just not succeeding for the super rich. It's succeeding for the most vulnerable. Exactly. Well said. All right, moving on and, you know, I have to bring up social media because unfortunately so much of our discourse these days is mediated by it. But on social media, there's lots of calls, you know, from all over the spectrum, especially on the right in the liberal center, to quote unquote, listen to the Venezuelan people. Many have pointed out that this is kind of absurd, given that there's radical

disparities of opinions in any country and no one people are a monolith, but which Venezuelans are most likely to have access to social media, mainstream media platforms, and speak and write and fluent English, and how does this skew and distort which opinions get out to the world and which ones don't? Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, the fact that the English speaking thing is a big one right there. I mean, obviously, the more affluent Venezuelans are the ones that are able to speak to an American audience, and of course, who have Twitter, you know, like when I was in the barrios and in like the Chavista rural countryside, no one was on Twitter in those areas. But, you know, so of course it's people who are Venezuelans who are expats living in France

and so forth who are active on social media. And so you have that angle of it, of course, the ones who are able to dominate the social media landscape and speak for the Venezuelan people. But it's more than that because on the other side, you actually have the censorship of pro-government voices in Venezuela by the big social media companies. So we saw immediately, as soon as Juan Wido declared himself president, Facebook and Instagram removed the verification for Maduro as blue checkmark as president, right? I mean, this obviously was a coordinated thing. Twitter bragged about the fact that they removed about 2,500 Twitter accounts in Venezuela

that were, quote, trying to influence the population. I mean, isn't any media trying to influence the population? Right. And so while, you know, like even, you know, I've seen it myself. I've never witnessed this before where anything that I tweet or Abby tweets about Venezuela is marked as sensitive content. And you have to like click to open it. And same thing with like YouTube. You have to sign in to confirm your age. And so on the one hand, you have the right wing in Venezuela, the opposition in Venezuela, having more access to the means of social media. Of course, the U.S. funding of sock puppet accounts and all of these projects that we know that the U.S. government does. elevates that, but then you have the attacks, the silencing, the censorship of those voices on these platforms as a very specific policy that's admitted by the social media company. They're saying, yes, we're doing that. We're seeking out these accounts and shutting them down if they are supposedly accounts trying to influence people to support the government. And so it's a multifaceted attack. And I think, you know, it's interesting to think back to like

2011 during the Arab Spring when it was like Twitter is the new form of revolution. And now the revolution isn't happen. It's the way outside of censorship from authoritarian regimes and corporations and things like that. But those days are, we see now are long gone. Long gone. Exactly. And you, I think Abby Martin has posted recently some of the on the ground interviews you did with regular Venezuelans during your time there. Of course, it's all in Spanish and their subtitles. But I retweeted them on Rev. Left's account. So if people want to go hear some of those accounts, it's really interesting to hear those people who are usually completely blocked out of mainstream Western U.S. media outlets. And their opinions are totally disdivated.

counted. It's amazing and important that we go out and seek out those opinions because those are crucial. But some on the left over the past few weeks have been putting forward, you know, a neither Maduro nor the opposition argument, essentially saying that yes, Maduro is a dictator and they want him gone, but that they also don't want the opposition to take over. I've sort of, you know, railed against this position on my own platforms. But in your opinion, what is wrong with this third option argument? And what should the anti-imperialist international left be advocating for it this crucial time for Venezuela. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the main things that's wrong with it is it's really a position

that doesn't really exist in Venezuela. You know, it's like it's trying to create, you know, it's creating a fantasy of what the, it's like, they're supporting an opposition that doesn't exist in the country, right? I see a lot of parallels to Libya, which I can mention, but, you know, there is, there are different wings of the opposition in Venezuela. This is true. There is a lot of discontent and people who are formerly Chavistas who oppose Maduro and have major criticisms of the government. Of course that's true. But there are different wings of the opposition. And the moderate wing of the opposition is one that acknowledges that there is a democratic process in the country that if they want their grievances heard, there is an open dialogue with the government.

There's democratic avenues that they have to enter into a dialogue with the government. They've been welcomed into all of the different government bodies to take part in this dialogue. and to have their grievances heard, you know, different collective farms and things like that on the countryside who have criticisms of the government. They are invited to Caracas to have mass meetings or they're explaining what needs to change. And so the opposition that people are wanting to support, you know, the opposition that has the criticisms of the government, but isn't this right-wing fascist opposition, they're not calling for Maduro to step down. They recognize that there is a constitution. They respect the constitution. They respect the democratically elected leader of that

of that country, whether or not they like him, but they understand that problems are solved through peace and through dialogue. They're not calling for the opposition to take power. They're not calling for Maduro to step down. They're calling for a dialogue. And that's what's happening with some sector of the opposition. The sector of the opposition that is getting the media tension and that is really the opposition that we're talking about is the fascist doing of the opposition that refuses any dialogue, refuses any of the democratic means they have available to them, and we'll accept nothing less than a takeover of power. And not just a takeover power from, you know, when they talk about getting rid of Maduro, they don't just mean getting

rid of Maduro and all of his ministers and all that they're talking about getting rid of the Chavismo movement. They want the Chavismo movement to have no say in Venezuelan politics, no power in government at all. And so there's no, the sector of the opposition that wants Maduro gone. They don't, you can't be in the United States say, yes, I agree that we all endure are gone. They're not talking about Maduro. They're talking about the poor and working class movement Chavistas, the activists in the country. That's really what they're talking about. And so, the other thing is that you can't it this is the parallel I see to Libya and I don't hold you know Libya was a confusing time and this is a long time ago and so I know that a lot of people who were

for the rebels in Libya you know eventually saw that the error in that but not to hold anything against people who were on that side in the Libya war but there is this there is this interesting thing happening where there is this line that you can support the opposition you can support the rebels but oppose intervention yet the leader of the opposition, the leadership of the rebels, their main demand was U.S. intervention. And so to say today, like, yes, I agree Maduro should go, and I agree that the opposition has legitimate demands. And there's obviously this movement that is against Maduro. They're the leader, the leadership of that is saying that they want U.S. intervention.

And so you can't have it both ways. I mean, but I think the biggest thing is that Venezuela has a constitution. They have elections. And we need to respect that. It's about respecting sovereignty. It's about respecting self-determination. We can't prescribe what government we think they should have. That's for them to decide. And our only job is to, you know, oppose all of the the U.S. attacks. That's helping bring that about. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's really basically it. It's we as if there may be elements of the opposition that you agree with, but of course, in any time, in any country, where there's an opposition movement, you have to look at not just who is in the rank and file or what

particular demands they have, but what is the political character and class character of the leadership? Who's actually going to take power? Not who you may agree with on the ground, but who is going to take power. In the case of Venezuela, the political and class character of the opposition

is disaster capitalism and straight fascism. Right. Exactly. And so I'll say a couple things on this, you know, just my opinion, which is echoing yours, but the people that say that they support, you know, Shavista opposition or elements, you know, like, let's say from a more libertarian socialist perspective, uh, who wants, you know, more communes or whatever to take

hold. The only way that you're going to get that, I tell these folks is that if the Maduro government succeeds, right? Because if this coup wins, then whatever, whatever, whatever you think your third option is, whatever you think your libertarian socialist third option is, if, if the Maduro regime falls and the imperialist and the fascist, then the bourgeoisie take over, that option, that that seed, that possibility is completely eradicated overnight. Secondly, I'd argue that, you know, I always try to show examples of materialism versus idealism. Materialism is, you know, concrete analysis of a concrete situation, and idealism is imposing

on the real world things that you think or wish would happen. And having a viable third option, you know, defending neither Maduro nor the opposition argument, that is an idealist move because concretely there is no third. option. One of these two forces is going to win. Either the Maduro stays in power, elections stay, the Venezuelan democracy stays in tax, or this coup, you know, succeeds. There is no third option. And then lastly, I had somebody reach out to me and say, hey, you know, here's an anarchist perspective on this issue that I think that you would be interested in hearing. I'm always open-minded. And I read this document, and of course, this is not, you know, all anarchist's

opinion or anything like this. But this document from anarchist in Venezuela was basically saying, Maduro, he's a dictator. Fuck the opposition. Fuck imperialism. Our only strategy is to have conflict with everybody involved. Attack the Maduro government, attack the opposition, attack everybody. And I wondered, you know, they literally said our strategy is simple, conflict. And I just wonder, like, how do you build a mass movement on that? How is that a sustainable option that makes sure that working class and poor mothers and fathers are able to provide for their children and people have health care? It's just not a fucking option. It's not a responsible, mature response to this situation. So that's kind of my rank on that topic. I completely agree. And what is that actually

doing? It's actually fucking it up for the elements of the socialist and anarchist opposition to Maduro that that are exercising their grievances and so forth. Like you mentioned the, you know, like the, not just the collectivos, but the communes, right? I mean, there's been a creation of thousands of communes all throughout the countryside and the country that are, that function really autonomously and have their own power. Right. And a lot of them have a lot of problems with Maduro and with the leadership of the PSUV. They're not right wingers by any means. They're, you know, what you would call like a rural anarchist or socialist grouping. But they have grievances with the government. And you know what? They have avenues to voice them. And so they were going to Caracas. They were going to have meetings with the government. Their voices were being heard. Their grievances were being addressed. And they were given different types of power to be able to solve the problems as they. saw they needed to be solved, being the workers on the ground, working in different sectors of agriculture and so forth. But when you have the creation of chaos, like this other wing

is talking about, that's what shut down these talks between the communes and the Maduro government because if there's chaos and Caracas, the streets are shut down, there's a danger of a U.S. invasion, all of these things. Of course you can't have talks between these sectors and the government in the context of a war that was happening in the country. And so, yeah, I mean, that's just, it's actually the principled revolutionaries in the country, whether or not they're in the PSUV, they then have to shift and say, now we just have to go into kind of a defense mode where we're fighting off this attack. And after this attack is fought off, then we can achieve, you know, that the difference is in contradictions. You know, what's the primary contradiction is

national liberation? I mean, before we can solve the problems of our internal disputes on the left in the country, we have to maintain our independence and defend our, our national liberation struggle and so it all be it all become sidelined all of the real conversations and dialogue that can be happening become sidelined to to fight against this this war and chaos that you mentioned yeah 100% totally agree so you know i do want to be fair here too though because you know nobody on our side is saying that maduro is you know absolutely perfect and he's this wonderful you know perfect figure of the left that's not our position at all so and we all know that the right you know, we'll always call any socialist leader and movement authoritarian and dictatorial,

blah, blah, blah. But, you know, there is some of that on the left as well. So where does this, you know, Maduro is the dictator stuff from the left come from? And is there any legitimacy to these, you know, left anti-Maduro arguments or the criticisms of Maduro. Or another way to put it is, what are some valid criticisms of Maduro, to be fair? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It's that Maduro gets kind of considered like a reformist version of, Chavez, but it's not really true. I mean, Maduro, I think, was definitely more the communist than Chavez. I mean, Maduro was raised by kind of famous, like, leftist revolutionary parents in Venezuela.

He actually went to Cuba to study under a hero of the Moncada Barracks assault, Pedro Maret Preto. And, you know, when he was in Cuba, it was like Cuban intelligence that was like, hey, there's this guy in the military named Hugo Chavez, who seems really badass. Like, I think when you go back to Venezuela, you should try. to establish contact with this guy because we think he's like has potential for like real revolution in Venezuela. And so Maduro like, you know, had at the outset sought out Chavez as like this could be like a, we could build a socialist revolution with with this guy and, you know, as a leader of a bus driver's union. So like Maduro's history is of, of being a communist and

being a revolutionary. Of course, Chavezmo is something different. It was its own ideology and whatever. But I think that his legacy, his past aside, I mean, when Maduro came into power, and when he was with Chavez from the beginning, I mean, from before he was elected, I mean, when he was part of his campaign to free him from prison, when Chavez was in prison. So the roots that Maduro has in the working class and revolutionary and communist movement in Venezuela is very long. But when he was elected into the presidency, I mean, it was a devastating time for the country. The economic crisis was really beginning to hit. The oil. oil prices had plummeted. Chavez had died, which was a devastating impact on the country. Of course,

many Venezuelans believe the U.S. had a hand in that. And so that's why when Maduro ran for president in 2013, it really was a victory by a slim margin. I mean, he won that election by about 1%. Of course, his opponent Caprile's wasn't openly a fascist like the right wing is now, but of course, spoke as the true surrogate of Chavez and as a socialist and things like that. So Maduro came in, with a very adverse economic and even political situation. But I think that the ideas on the, the first thing to dispel is that the ideas on the left that he was a dictator, that there's no democracy. I mean, that's just like such a, just like a chauvinist view of the country.

I mean, they very clearly have a democracy. It's observed by countless international observers. It's audited. It has like kind of one of the most in-depth auditing systems where you have a fingerprint and ID. Everything can be checked. It's like, it's legitimate elections. There's absolutely no debate about it.

And even if though he won by a small margin in that election and did run uncontested basically in the last election, they still have a democratic process. And according to their constitution and their democracy, he is the elected leader. I think that one of the things, though, that just really gets thrown around a lot is that like it's like the poor management of the country, right? And it's the kind of thing you hear a lot is, oh, well, they just didn't diversify their economy from oil. You know, it's like this every American knows.

of course, if you have an oil-rich country, you've got to diversify your economy as if nobody in Venezuela thought of this, as if the entire PSV and all the economists are like, oh, we'll just rely on oil completely and never diversify. Of course they did that. I mean, so what was started by Chavez was like, they had an oil economy that wasn't even developed when Chavez took power. I mean, they were selling their oil for the price of coal in the country. I mean, they're completely being ravaged by these big powers. And so to be able to provide this kind of in through this boom and uplift people out of poverty, there had to be a development of the oil industry. And of course, they were trying to develop all of these other industries as well.

So I think it's kind of unfair to put on Maduro these ideas of like, oh, he didn't plan the diversification of the economy as well. And of course, those are things that were absolutely happening. But I think that the biggest thing when it comes to that is that troubles me on the left is that Maduro is treated as like he's just the guy that's in power and he's making these decisions with his like small cabal of people. And then so you could oppose him but before the Chavez movement and before the socialist party and all of that. But Maduro really is someone who has been lifted up by the masses.

He was put in power by this movement and answers to that movement. I mean, the biggest thing that I got being there and seeing the kind of, I was there when they were going through the nominations and elections of the constituent assembly. To see that like average people in the neighborhoods were speaking directly to those in power, right? like the minister of economics, like the top economics minister in the country. We traveled with him in the countryside for a day. People in the neighborhood knew who he was, knew his name, he knew their name, and they could just go right up to him and say, this is what needs to happen with the economy, like the minister of the economy.

And so Maduro plays that same role where he's a cannibal to and a part of this larger mass movement. Of course, it's not the majority of the country at the moment. I mean, that Maduro's support is maybe 30% of the country as like core. supporters, but that's a pretty significant portion of the population that considers itself the embodiment of Maduro and Maduro as just their surrogate. That's a pretty significant portion of the population of revolutionaries and the most, the largest. I mean, there's no comparable force in the country, political social movement in the country that is that large.

And so I would just caution people, when you're talking about Maduro, a lot of time you're talking about this sector of the population, this sector of poor and working class revolutionaries, It's not just Maduro as an administrator. Yeah. And if, you know, Maduro has 30% solid, you know, feverish support in the population, that covers his main supporters. But I think a recent poll showed that 87% of Venezuelans think that Maduro is the democratically elected, fair and open leader of their country. And they do not want this U.S. back or, you know, internal Venezuelan coup to happen at all. So even outside of his main core of support, the vast majority of Venezuelans are telling America to fuck off.

absolutely yeah now do you do you agree that there is i mean a lot of the some other things you know mismanagement and the lack of diversification are definitely thrown at maduro but a big thing that's thrown at maduro as well is is corruption do you have anything to say about corruption in the maduro government or if that's unique to the maduro government etc um i mean i saw no evidence of that and i've never kind of seen any good evidence of that i mean i think it's just another one of those things that are thrown around i mean one of the big things is that you know it's almost a way of, it's a way to kind of say people are bought off, right?

I mean, I see constantly that, oh, the military is solidly with the socialists, because they're given all these big financial incentives and contracts and things like that, like the military is bought off. It's like,

no, I mean, I met rank and file soldiers. I met generals. Like, they're like communists. I mean, these guys consider themselves revolutionaries.

They, uh, you know, they have pictures of Che Guevar on their wall. I mean, it's a left, the left and Chavismo is such a real, social force. You don't need to buy people off or have financial corruption to be able to have

people in power. I mean, this is just what is popular in the country. And so yeah, no, I didn't, I don't think the corruption stuff holds anyway, really. I definitely think that one of the biggest accomplishments of Chavismo and the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela was, I think you alluded to it a little bit earlier, especially when we're talking about how the masses rise up and beat back some of these coups. But is that the Ego Chavez really, elevated the political consciousness of all Venezuelans. They know what imperialism is. They know

what capitalist, you know, sabotage is. And I think the, and this is my opinion, but I think when the U.S. made their move with Juan Wado or whatever, and they tried to do this coup, I think they were hoping that the military would immediately defect and go on that side. And I still think that they're pushing

really hard on the military to turn against Maduro. And there are some people, I guess I've heard, in the middle ranking positions of the military, that have some opposition sympathies, but the rank and file on the bottom, which, you know, come from working in poor communities largely and the top brass of the military

seem firmly on Maduro side still. And so I think that, you know, that strategy is kind of falling apart for the U.S., which makes it dangerous too, because the U.S. doesn't want to be humiliated, and I feel like with these ghouls like Abrams and Bolden on the front line, that they very well might push for just peer on invasion and violence in lieu of the military defecting.

Yeah, well, you know, You know, it looks desperate, too, because you have John Bolton literally on Twitter calling for the military, telling the military members that they'll get a pardon from the U.S. and money if they defect. It's like, well, your plan's going pretty bad if you're literally having to go to Twitter to try to appeal to the military to defect. I mean, the reason that this is not very likely right now is because they have tried military coups for the past 20 years.

And so you would expect if after 2002, 2014, a military coup attempt to 2015 and 2017. After you go through a lot of planned U.S.-backed insurrections from within the military, you're able to kind of route out who is kind of revolutionating the military and get them out of the military. And so there's been, you know, there's been a purge of these people throughout the ranks of the military from the rank and file through the top over the past 20 years, because they've tried and failed at military coups so many times, you know, that they've kind of weeded out all of those people. Also, the fact that, you know, Travismo was quite popular in the military because Chavez, that's where he began. He led an insurrection in the military,

led a faction of left-wing soldiers in the military. And so the roots are there. But I think the number one thing, though, the reason the military isn't going to go along with it is not because they have automatic loyalty to the socialist. I believe that most people in the military are, do consider themselves Chavistas. But they will say clearly, we have no automatic allegiance or loyalty to one political party. We have a duty to defend the Constitution. And so if the opposition, won the presidential election in 2018, the military would serve that president. They wouldn't install the socialists into power. They are bound to uphold the Constitution, and that's what they're going to do. So as long as this coup is unconstitutional, they're not going to be a part of it.

Yeah. I want to talk, and this is a huge question, so you can be as brief as you want on this question, but I do think it's important to at least gesture towards it and talk a little bit about it. But can you put this latest coup attempt in the context of decades of U.S. imperialism in Central and South America. How does this relate to the broader U.S. imperial strategy on the continent? Yeah. So, um, you know, of course, uh, Venezuela like the rest of the continent, you know, endured centuries of colonialism, of slavery, um, you know, emerged from that era and, of course, entered the area of neoliberalism and neol colonialism and all of that. Um, and that's why really, uh, when you're in Venezuela, everywhere you go,

go on every national monument or building or anything, you see the portrait of Simone Bolivar, the independence leader in Venezuela and the continent, and then you see Hugo Chavez. Chavez is considered the kind of the next stage of Bolivar's independence struggle. And so the Venezuelan people see themselves when Chavez took power in 99. They see that with the same weight and equivalence as Bolivar waging independent struggles on the continent, you know, many, many years ago. And so that is what kind of the consciousness is of the Venezuelan people. And that's really what it is for imperialism also. It was, Chavez broke this kind of longstanding history of it being, you know, just a place where you can ravage oil very cheaply in the country. But I think that in particular,

you know, like when Chavez took power, it led to a wave of left-wing government. government's taking power through democratic elections across the continent, right? And that's why you, how you had, you know, Telesaur came into being because it was seven progressive Latin American countries that all of a sudden had leftist presidents come into power and they started funding their own media outlet. That's how you had the creation of Alba and all of these other alternative economic structures to the IMF and World Bank. And that was really anchored by Venezuela. And so Venezuela has always been seen, not just as another one of the leftist governments that need to be taken down in Latin America, but hugely significant because it was like the keystone

to this new alliance that was building on the continent. So they've always seen Venezuela as like a main target. And that's why I think Bolton's Troika of tyranny, they named the governments that they plan to take down. Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, of course, Bolivia is there. Ecuador is a plan that's already in motion to take down. There is, you know, the soft coup in Paragu. I mean, they have their plan, but they see Venezuela as a center of it. But it, but it's a, it's also, I think that a thing that gets missed right now is, of course, it's about the resources of the continent and domination of the continent. And they want to take down Venezuela first and then be able to weaken all these other countries because they want to re-dominate that entire area

for economic and military reasons. But I think this is just the first step in a kind of a bigger global imperialist plan, where the Pentagon right now, I mean, they're, they see these as like kind of the small targets. The entire, you know, even in Jim Mattis's resignation letter when he resigned from the White House, it wasn't really about Syria. It was that it was about the taking the plan seriously of a major war in confrontation with China and with Russia. U.S. imperialism knows that the biggest challenge to its power is China and the growth

of China. And so the overthrow of the Chinese Communist Party is, of course, a big priority for them. But I think that what's happening with Venezuela now and the real agrette, the real uptick, that all of a sudden they're going full speed ahead for regime change in Venezuela and their partners in Latin America. It has more to do with setting the stage for a major confrontation with China than it does simply reaping all of Venezuela's oil resources, which of course they want to do. But having such a strong ally of China right on the continent, I mean, I think they want to remake the whole continent of South America as a bastion of U.S. military interests, and then that puts them

on stronger footing when a few years down the road, they initiate this larger conflict with China. Yep. And in the Middle East, we see that same pattern. You know, allies of Russia and China are attacked by the U.S. And I do think it's worth mentioning that there's a thing called the Monroe Doctrine. And the Monroe Doctrine is a core ideological piece of U.S. imperialism that says Central and South America are under our auspices, i.e. the U.S. is auspices. And that is basically we have a right to dominate this entire hemisphere because of the Monroe Doctrine, and so you see them solidifying, always trying to solidify their ranks in Central and South America in a very brazen way, and even more so than on other continents, precisely because of the Monroe Doctrine and what it says, which is that, you know, all of this territory is really for the U.S. to dominate and control, and nobody has a right over Central and South America that trumps America's right to that, you know, that land. And so that goes way back. That goes way back. So worth knowing. And the last thing, before we get to our last question, you know, I've done episodes on Cuba before, and people know that Cuba before the Cuban Revolution was under the, you know, dictatorship of Batista,

a puppet U.S. regime that was rudely violent and mass poverty all through Cuba. And so the Cubans rose up and the Cuban Revolution beat it back. And, you know, they took a Marxist-Leninist approach. But, you know, Chavismo, the pink-tide, a Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela, specifically, took a more democratic socialist attempt, right? They used the already existing democratic institutions, but they basically did the same thing. And to really understand Venezuela, you can't just start your historical understanding at Hugo Chavez. You have to understand the 80s and the 90s and the 70s and the 60s.

What disparity and depravity that Venezuelans had to live under neoliberal terrorism. And that gave rise to Ego Chavez in the Bolivarian Revolution. So I really, you know, just push people to go back and study that history because you can't understand the present without understanding the history of the same. situation. Absolutely. Last question for you, and this sort of sums up our entire discussion, and I know people, you know, we've alluded to this. We obviously have some idea, but just to really drill down and make it explicit. What are the best and worst possible outcomes for Venezuela at this moment, in your opinion? And what will happen to Venezuelan proletariat and the Bolivarian revolution if this coup is successful? So I think the best case scenario, the one I'm hoping for,

is that this is just going to fizzle out, is that they overplayed their hand. There is really no support in the population to back this coup out, and that they know that if they really try to push it with a U.S. military intervention, that they'll be defeated just much like they were in Iraq and in Afghanistan, you know, things that they thought were going to be quick and easy wars, regime change wars, and in fact, you know, 10, 20 years later in Afghanistan's case, they'd leave in a retreat in incomplete defeat. And so I feel it's possible that they will see that they've overplayed their hand the way they thought things were going to play out. are not going to play out and they just abandon the whole thing. And then Juan Wido

stays, you know, flees the country or stays underground or maybe he's even tried and sentenced to, you know, house arrest or not even sentenced to jail at all, as other coup plotters in Venezuela have experienced under such an authoritarian dictatorship that can walk free after violent overthrows of the government. So I think that that's a definite possibility. And that, of course, is what I'm hoping for. Of course, that will, you know, impact the political struggle in the country from there on when they see how close the danger is of overthrow. It could have a unifying effect on the country, which I think would be positive and is happening now. But I think the worst case scenario is this, is that as we've talked about

many times on this show so far, is that Chavismo is a mass political force in the country, whether or not Maduro is there. So if the coup is really implemented, of course, worst case scenario is a U.S. military intervention. But however it happens, if the, if the Maduro government is removed by whatever means and this new opposition government is put in power, they cannot rule without fascism. So even if taking power really is the easy thing, it's holding power that will be difficult for Wido and his and his MUD coalition. If they all of a sudden assume the powers of the presidency, the state forces, all of that. The only way that they're going to be able to stay in power for any period of time is through the implementation

of a true police state authoritarian dictatorship. That could be, you know, like we saw under Pinochet. And I think that the potential for a civil war is very real. You know, when we were there, you know, there's collectivos, armed collectivos all over the country, right? The socialist movement, the revolutionaries, like, they're militant. They have. guns, but they're also disciplined. And so when the right wing was out there, these small right wing groups are out there burning the city down, shooting people, lynching people, they weren't fighting back. They were restrained. And they would tell you very clearly, a lot of us want to go out and fuck them up in response to what they're doing to the country. But we are all, I mean,

we're talking about the anarchists or people who aren't even in the PSUV. They are all under the united discipline of Chavez-Moto say, we are not going to respond with violence because that is, that's not how we do things in this country, but they're ready to when they need to. So if there's some kind of right-wing taker of the country, things should really quickly turn into a very bloody civil war because those forces, a civilian militias, a collectivos, they're all ready to fight and they won't fight unless they have to. And what would make them have to is if the right wing actually seizes power away from them. Yeah. And, you know, to see a historical example of this basic pattern playing out,

I invite people to go, you know, learn more about Chile under Allende and the people. Pinochet coup, the U.S. backed Pinochet coup and how it had to hold power. I think this would even be more bloody and more brutal, you know, than that one, but that's a good historical example of what happens when these situations play out. And as Lenin famously said, fascism is capitalism and decay. And as you're saying, you know, this fascist movement is, you know, rising up in the face of a democratic socialist movement who's trying to use the wealth and resources of their country to ensure the highest quality of life for the poor and working classes of that country. And when capitalism can't hide behind the democratic facade of bourgeois electoralism, it does take the

form of fascism. It will not just, you know, lose an election and step aside. It will always come back and be as brutal and violent as it needs to be to regain every ounce of power and more. Before we let you go, though, can you let listeners know where they can find you, your podcast, Eyes Left, and the Empire Files online? Absolutely. You can go find Empire Files easiest on YouTube. It's just YouTube.com slash Empire Files. All of our episodes are there. You can find us on Twitter at Empire Files. I'm

on Twitter also at Mike Prysner. And the Eyes Left Podcast, it's on every podcast streaming platform. You can also find us on Twitter at Eyes Left Pod. Mike, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate all the work you do on this issue and your voice on this issue and all the shit

that you and Abby have to deal with just to be honest and truthful on this front. Let's absolutely do a future collaborative episode with Eyes Left and Rev Left. I'm sure we could have a lot more discussions on a lot more interesting topics. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Let's keep in touch. That sounds great. We'd love to. Satiro, Alabama, petro propaganda, propaganda. How many billion in bourgeois, lenderswana. Satiro, Alabama.

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