Rev Left Radio - Art for the People and the Maoist Communist Union

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

Space from Art For The People and Thomas O'Connell from MCU (Maoist Communist Union) join Breht to discuss these organizations, their aims and goals, the role of art and artists in a revolutionary mov...ement, the impossibility of "non-political art", their shared love of hip hop, Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the importance of giving and receiving criticism, communist organizing, and much more!   MCU's instagram MCU's website AFTP's Instagram Marxism Today on Youtube Space's music Space's Instagram   Space Baby's Songs featured in this episode: Martyrs, Go In, Damn I'm In Debt, and Nothing to Lose --------------------------------------------------------- Rev Left is and always will be 100% listener funded. You can support the show and get access to hundreds of bonus episode in our back catologue HERE Follow Rev Left on Insta

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio on today's episode. I have on Space Baby and Thomas from Art for the People and the new pre-party formation Maoist Communist Union as well as from Marxism Today, the YouTube channel. We've had on Paul in the past. They work on that as well. To talk about specifically art for the people, the, you know, the artist's role in revolution, hip-hop, space babies, music, and we kind of, you know, reflect on our hip-hop influences over the years. We talk about Maoism, we talk about the Maoist Communist Union, this new organization where they came from, the lessons they've learned,
Starting point is 00:00:48 what their strategies are, their goals. So it's a wide-ranging conversation that I think specifically artists of any sort and organizers of any sort are really, really, really going to find crucial and generative and productive and some real guidance in this in this deep episode because we do go quite deep on on these topics so I'm very excited to share this with you and of course I'll link to the organizations and everything in the show notes so people who are inspired to try to join up and contribute can do exactly that and of course if you like what we do here at Rev Left Radio you can either follow us on Instagram at Rev Left Radio official
Starting point is 00:01:30 Or you can join the Patreon, get access to over 300, I believe, at this point. Bonus episodes from our back catalog and new bonus episodes all the time are coming out. Plus early releases and other fun things like that. It's a cool little community that we've built over on Patreon. And as this platform has gotten bigger over the years, one of the things that has happened is that I'm not as able to keep up with social media as I don't read my DMs. You know, we don't really have an email that can get filtered out, right? We try to do it once, and they just got too flooded and impossible to keep up with. So all that is to say that the one place I make sure I read every comment is in the comment section of the Patreon post.
Starting point is 00:02:10 So we post every episode on our Patreon. And in the comment section, I make it a point to go through and read and respond to everybody's comments there and just have that one place where you know for a fact you'll be able to reach out to me and get a reply. So I want to keep at least one area like that open. So that's at patreon.com forward slash left radio. All right. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Space and Thomas about the Maoist Communist Union, art for the people, the role of the artist in revolution, and so
Starting point is 00:02:43 much more. Enjoy. What up, y'all? Space artist named Space Baby, and I'm a revolutionary rapper, Beat Baker. I've organized as a communist for about eight years. and I'm part of Art for the People, an anti-capitalist artist organization that I'll be talking here today and the amazing, incredible YouTube channel Marxism today. My name's Thomas.
Starting point is 00:03:11 I'm a member of the Central Committee of the Maoist Communist Union, which is an MLM pre-party organization based in the United States. I've been a communist for a little over a decade and Maoist for about eight years and organizing as a Maoist for eight years. And I'm also a co-host in Marxism today. very excited to be here today on Rev Left, to be here with Space. Yeah, absolutely, and it's an honor and a pleasure to have both of you on. I've been a longtime fan of Marxism today. I've loved to see how the channel has evolved over time. I've been a fan of Space's music, and so it's really cool to have both of you on today.
Starting point is 00:03:45 In fact, last week we just had on Chase, who was also a part of MCU, a longtime friend and comrade and multiple-time guests here on Rev. Left to talk about the role of the industrial proletariat in communist organizing. and so it was kind of a happy little happenstance that we have basically two two MCU interviews in a week and it was just sort of it just happened that way but it's a it's very cool like as I told Chase I'm excited about the organization and I know that the comrades working in the MCU are very principled and so I'm excited to see where it goes so yeah space I know that we talked a little bit earlier about just some thoughts on
Starting point is 00:04:22 the on the show Rev left and your longtime listenership of the show. I mean, obviously that's a reciprocal thing because since you've really started putting out music and it's made its way around the communist left, I've certainly enjoyed it, been a fan, and in fact, I was watching one of your more recent videos that you put out on Marxism today that I was digging so much, it sparked the email that I sent you to pop this entire thing off. So yeah, welcome. And yeah, do you want to just open up a little discussion about that? For sure, yeah. I mean, I've been listening to RefLev Radio, for like six years and I listened to the guillotine when it was still on as well.
Starting point is 00:05:01 And I actually even remember that I reached out to you, oh man, this was maybe five years ago to have Scott Harrison on the show to talk about his mass line book, which I don't think ever worked out. But yeah, I've been really, I've learned a lot from Revolutionary Left Radio. It's been instrumental in my development as a Marxist and especially at a time when the communist movement is so small and underdeveloped, you know, these kinds of large platforms where we can really debate the science of Marxism is incredibly important.
Starting point is 00:05:35 And for that reason, kind of from the place of love and appreciation, I did want to raise a point that I do think that you can do better sometimes as a host to push back against some of these anti-Marxist points that some of your guests raised. Now, I understand the delicacy of your position. You don't want to turn this podcast into a debate bro podcast. But at the same time, I do think as a facilitator, you have a responsibility to provide some guidance for the listeners, especially those new to Marxism, to help sort through what positions are basically anti-Marxism. What positions do you push back on? Now, I understand that that's a very difficult task that has kind of fallen into your lap, I guess, as the podcast has taken on.
Starting point is 00:06:20 But because the show is so important, I did want to raise that as a point that I think will continue to be important for you to really think on what are some of those ideas for you to push back on and when to take more of a backseat. Yeah, yeah. And I'm totally open to that criticism. There is this one aspect in my head where I think that sometimes I situate Rev Left as like that open forum where, you know, people, I mean, of course, I have lines. I'm not going to let, you know, right-wingers or reactionaries of any type onto the show or anything, but if you're well-intentioned and you're on the left, I do have this part of me that wants to facilitate that conversation and allow different ideas to be spread. And there's going to inevitably be, you know, guests on that people disagree with. And I also trust my audience to engage critically with everything, including this show itself. I, and in that same vein, I kind of think of Red Menace in the Red Menace episodes that I do with Allison as much more.
Starting point is 00:07:20 more of the territory and the terrain on which I and her, you know, we advance our specific tendency, our specific ideological commitments, our specific positions. And so, you know, I think this is on one sense valid that I can sort of zoom out and say, if you listen to everything that I do, you will kind of come to a very coherent understanding of my line in particular, et cetera. But I also see the validity. And this is, you know, I've heard this criticism before from from comrades that I could do a better job at, you know, maybe not holding people's feet to the fire, but pushing back on certain things. You know, being an interviewer, I mean, it comes with its own difficulties. You're sort of having this meta-conversation where as you're engaging
Starting point is 00:08:04 in a dialogue with somebody, you're also up in your head thinking about what point do I want to follow up on, what segues into the next thing. And so sometimes I do miss specific things. And I don't know if you want to get specific. And certainly you don't have to mention any names. But I would love to hear some examples of things that might have slid by are things that you think would have been worthy of pushing back on that I didn't necessarily push back on simply for the fact that going forward, you know, I want to make sure that I have that firmly in mind and those examples that I can I can build on it and try to do a better job on that front. Do you have anything off the top of your head? Yeah, I do. And at first I was doubting
Starting point is 00:08:45 whether I should mention anything because, again, I also don't have a personal relationship. relationship with most of your guests and I don't want to create this, this unnecessary tension, but I do think it's good to hopefully people understand that some of these criticisms are coming from a place to really build unity. For example, the last episode you had on socialist realism in Vietnam, which obviously I was very excited about as somebody who thinks about art all the time, you know, there were different ideas raised that I disagreed with or wasn't really sure if that was the most helpful angle and also in your position I wouldn't have pushed back on those because you know you have a guest
Starting point is 00:09:26 on and you want them to have their perspective on it and if you would like hold their feet to the fire every time they mentioned an idea which isn't you know so helpful for really the flow of the podcast but for example when he basically said that marks advocated for a line of two divides into one and Mao advocating for a line of one divides into two, to me, that's a pretty dangerous idea actually there. And I think was an idea that would have warranted some pushback, especially because that that really, that philosophical perspective has been used for both capitalist restoration and to advocate a peaceful coexistence between communists and capitalists and then does other
Starting point is 00:10:15 things, like basically taking Mao out of this big line of Marxism develop as a science and Mao helping to develop that science, but more like, okay, Mao went into this crazy different direction, some of those things. And I definitely understand if you were, if you just missed it, you were thinking of the next question. There were a lot of things put forward, but I did want to just name one of those ideas that I think was important to push back on in a sea of ideas that maybe some of them were wrong, but not so important to really push back on. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, on that specific example, and I think we talked about this a little bit beforehand, I actually did miss that one. I just totally do not remember that quit being made.
Starting point is 00:10:58 It seems like something that would have certainly have caught my attention. With regards to any anti-Maoist rhetoric more broadly, I don't, I'm not sure, but I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think I have necessarily specifically lent into that, but perhaps some guests have who are not necessarily Maoist, who probably are more Leninist, and might see Mao as an important thinker, but not as an advanceer of the science of Marxism itself. But I mean, for my perspective, I think I am very deeply sympathetic to Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, and I've certainly tried to give MLMs a platform here on Rev Left and even, you know, position myself as more or less on their side when it comes to certain issues over the years that have, that have cropped up. But
Starting point is 00:11:42 If you wanted to give an opportunity, I want to give you an opportunity, if you wanted to kind of tell us why that error with regards to dialectics is important and sort of correct the record for people or just give your perspective on that particular issue just so that that can sort of stand corrected and people can have at least heard that criticism. For sure. And also, I think the fact that you are giving us space right here to voice, Well, one, our perspective as Maoist, but then even this criticism, I think, says enough that I definitely don't think that you are not giving due diligence, basically, to the Maoist position. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but yeah, on, on some of those guests, but basically, and I think Thomas, it would be great for you to jump in, uh, here as well. But, you know, the, this was a really important debate during the Chinese revolution, especially during the cultural revolution, this, um, philosophical debate on dialectical material. realism, does one divide into two or does two divide into one? Basically, what one divides into two means is that you could take any phenomenon, anything, and break it down into these mutually opposing aspects that are interdependent, and that it is the contradiction between
Starting point is 00:13:05 the two, the opposing motion and force between these two things that really define a thing or a phenomenon, and that it is through this resolution of contradiction that something new emerges. So if we take the bourgeoisie and the proletariat as an example, the proletariat would not be able to exist without the bourgeoisie, and the bourgeoisie would not be able to exist without the proletariat. Together, they make class society and capitalist society. They are interdependent on each other.
Starting point is 00:13:42 But they also have their own distinct class interests, right? They want to take society in an opposing different direction, whereas the proletariat has a class interest in ultimately the abolition of all exploitation and classes. And the bourgeoisie wants to retain their position. And so this resolution would, of this one, of this class society, then the struggle resolved into a classless society. whereas two divides into one basically means that the capitalist class and the proletariat or the capitalist and the proletariat, which was in the proletariat, have a basis to unite and to form
Starting point is 00:14:29 this new unity. And I think Thomas could speak a bit. Yeah. And you said the two divides into one. Maybe that was the term or the way the speaker in the previous episode phrased it. But generally it's actually translated in the debates from the cultural revolution as the two fuse into one. And this is, yeah, I think fundamentally an anti-Marxist position in philosophy, it's easy actually if we go back to Hegel. We can kind of see, you know, Lenin in his notes on Hegel, he emphasized how there's a lot of local, like, materialism in Hegel, in Hegel's greater logic. But the fundamental premise Hegel has starts with the one, the unity.
Starting point is 00:15:12 of the absolute idea. And then all motion and development is the self-movement of the one. And then ultimately everything fuses back into that one in a closed circle where we can take Christian dialectics on which Hegel based a lot of his dialectics, right? The father alienates himself from himself in Christ to the sun. And then they reunite in a higher unity, the Holy Spirit and the Trinity and so on. And, you know, I think looking at it that way, it's a little bit easier to see the idealist nature of it when we're talking about Hegelian dialectics or religious views. But yeah, this idea of the resolution of contradictions being their fusion into a higher unity as opposed to the overcoming of the contradiction itself. It's a dangerous view. In the culture revolution,
Starting point is 00:16:00 it was a key line, even slightly beforehand, actually, that some of the capitalist rotors put forward. But more broadly, it's actually a debate, which in a sense, this question of the nature of the one, and whether everything reaches a higher unity and everything is one ultimately, it goes back even to the origins of philosophy. And you see debates in Greek philosophy and Indian philosophy and Chinese philosophy really at the dawn of class society over this very question. Of course, I think the Marxist development of dialectical materialism allows us to answer it more clearly. But yes, so I mean, there's a lot more we could talk about there. I know the subject of this podcast episode isn't philosophy.
Starting point is 00:16:41 It'd be great to dive deep on that topic, and really I'd encourage people who want to dive into it more just to look at some of the debates on this philosophical question early on in the Cultural Revolution. But in this particular context, really, the idea that two fuse into one was used as a form of class collaboration under socialism, arguing that ultimately communism could be reached through the unification of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie and not through class struggle under socialism. And I think we can see kind of where that can really lead and how that can justify actually the reversal of an overturning of the dictatorship of the proletariat, really. Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead, space. No, I just want to say there's also a misphrasing on my part, and two divides into one. Yeah, I meant to say two fuses into one. Right, yeah.
Starting point is 00:17:32 And not only does that philosophical error result, and you can think of reformists' beliefs that, you know, the proletarians, you know, the proletarians, you know, the proletarians, you know, the proletarians, you know, the. proletariat and the bourgeoisie, they can work together to create a society for everybody. It can also straight up lead to fascism, a sort of Mussolini-esque line, which was very class collaborationist at its core. So I totally agree with you. You both articulated it incredibly well. On Red Menace, which is also on Rev. Left, we've had many episodes covering Mao's text directly, and I believe that we got into this discussion and made that very clear for people. Again, I missed it in that last one. I'm even, I mean, I don't know for sure. I'm willing to keep open the possibility that perhaps our guest misspoke.
Starting point is 00:18:13 I'm going to have to go back and listen to that because that's a pretty, I know there are people that disagree with that across the political spectrum, but that's a pretty solid dialectical position for any Marxists to have. So regardless of whether the guest was committed to that position or misspoke, I think both of you did a really wonderful job articulating not only what it actually means, but the reason why this debate is incredibly crucial. And I know this episode isn't about philosophy, but I'm always down to dabble in it. The big thing that I wanted to say is not only am I in agreement with you on that particular position, but I really appreciate the comradly and principled way in which you wanted to get this criticism out. I think there is a problem in society, on the left, in organizations,
Starting point is 00:19:01 where there is this error where either people are too conflict, diverse to disagree publicly, right? To go along to get along, which which is a sort of, you know, can be a form of liberalism and can be a sort of weakness. Or this sort of hyper-dogmatic, hyper-sectarian attack anybody who disagrees with me about anything approach as well, which is also clearly not helpful, creates, you know, splits, micro-sex, etc. We all know how these two errors can manifest. But I think what you two are showcasing is that, that middle path, that, that that principled down the middle way of opening up a criticism, even though it might be kind of awkward, working through it, hearing what people have to say, correct what you think is the
Starting point is 00:19:46 problem, and move on in solidarity. And I think that is a lesson that everybody on the left and anybody in organizing circles absolutely could benefit from learning from and sort of seeing showcased here. So I appreciate both of you for that. Yeah. And I appreciate your willingness. And like you said, I mean, this is really our first time talking, I guess, person online and so opening that with a criticism i think you know once that's you know once we're able to show it to each other we can do that in a principal way i think it's also a great way for it for comrades to really get closer and and build more thorough political unity hell yeah and again final final statement i take the criticism to heart and i will actively work to to be better at that
Starting point is 00:20:30 because that is an area where you know i've struggled and even consciously so especially in the early days. It's like, you know, I never considered myself a sort of journalist that's, you know, that's going to hold people's feet to the fire. And it is sort of awkward to tell somebody, you know, hold on, hold on. What you're saying there is wrong and this is why. And so it is sort of a thing that I've wanted to work on. And I've tried to work on. And perhaps at certain times I've been better at it than others. But it's taken to heart. It's internalized. And I will keep that in mind going forward. I'm dead.
Starting point is 00:21:05 Damn, I'm a debt. Can't get out, can't get out, can't get out, can't get out, can't get out. Damn, I'm a debt, damn I'm a dead, damn I'm a debt, can't get out, can't get out. Where do they keep my dead at? I don't even know shit, I don't even know. Where do they keep my bread at? Where does it go? Where does it go?
Starting point is 00:21:27 I just paid off 1k. 2K, 3k. Got laid off back to debt back. 3K, 4K Cancel my card Then my credit went down Did down, did down Went to the bar downtown
Starting point is 00:21:42 Drinks went down, did down Drunk as fucking I'm running the club Drinks on me don't give a fuck From B.O.A to stash my funds U.S. Benchase Capital One They all make quite a handsome sum Pulling interest from this handsome son Pay for my pizza and four installments
Starting point is 00:22:00 Paying for my debt but the bank keep calling Forgot about a car from 2010 Now I owe them 20 grand Damn I'm a dead Damn I'm a dead Damn I'm a dead Can't get out Can't get out
Starting point is 00:22:13 Can't get out Can't get out Damn I'm a debt Damn I'm a debt Damn I'm a debt Damn I'm a debt Can't get out Can't get out
Starting point is 00:22:23 Can't get out I can get out I don't get out I don't get how a million net Got all of their millions dead Is it that they work harder Is it that they work smarter? Or do they work awful
Starting point is 00:22:35 Turning my debt into millions, yeah I could never go over no back Just to keep the dough in my pocket attack Rather help those who I love And give my shelter to who I trust Keeping it real means being in debt Because it can't live off your paycheck Credit here, credit there
Starting point is 00:22:53 Microcredit for indie gear Stumps a Mumbai credits there Credit at debt are everywhere Damn I'm in debt But damn I'm a dead Yeah, can't get out Can't get out Can't get out, can't get out
Starting point is 00:23:07 Yeah, damn I'm a dead Yeah, damn I'm a dead Yeah, damn I'm a dead, yeah, damn I'm a dead, Yeah, can't get out, can't get out, can't get out, can't get out But we are here to talk about the organizations that you all are a part of and the really exciting stuff coming out of them. So we're going to get to the MCU, the Maoist Communist Union here in a bit. But let's first talk about AFTP, Art for the People.
Starting point is 00:23:41 So what is AFTP? Why and by whom was it created? And sort of what are its primary goals? So Art for the People is an anti-capist organization of artists making art and service of the working class. But in order for me to really talk about art for the people, I do need to lay a lot of groundwork. so please bear with me there's a lot to cover here because really we live in an exciting time there's a big role for artists to play in establishing and widening a revolutionary cultural front and with a strong and vibrant cultural front you can have a revolutionary message really stick in your
Starting point is 00:24:17 consciousness and circulate in a different way than books articles or speeches and if you look at the 1960s and the influence of the Panthers, the art of Emery Douglas, their cultural minister, you know, their visual style still sticks, thick black, black, lines, you know, bold and bright colors, militant people ready to take down the state. And we still call cops pigs, which was really popularized by the Panthers. So it's easy to think of revolutionary movements in the 60s, the vibrant artistic movements that it produced. But it could cause us to say, you know, Well, it's exactly because there's no strong revolutionary movement currently that we don't have a revolutionary artistic movement, which is true. You know, the stronger the revolutionary movement, the more revolutionary artists, the movement produces and will attract.
Starting point is 00:25:07 But then we don't talk about how the seeds of a revolutionary artistic movement can help bring about a strong revolutionary movement. So artists right now have a tremendous responsibility currently to study Marxism, study revolution, and do our due diligence. And like Stoney, Kate Bambarra said, to make revolution irresistible. You know, in anew democracy, Mao writes, culture prepares the ground ideologically
Starting point is 00:25:34 before the revolution comes, and is an important, indeed essential, finding front in the general revolutionary front during the revolution. So communist artists today need to put their art in service of revolution, but also to organize artists
Starting point is 00:25:49 and adopt the proletarian world outlook, to make proletarian art. art and serve the working class. So here with Mao, we have the general principle that culture prepares the ground ideologically, the ground being revolution, but we don't mean culture here in the broad sense. Okay, culture is the sum of all social consciousness, which includes so many things if you think about the sum of all social consciousness. And of course, it includes habits and ways of relating, like regularly performing self-crit, which of course is important. But, you know, what we're really talking about here today is it's a more narrow definition of culture as
Starting point is 00:26:27 the arts so we can establish that we can learn from past revolutionary movements that the arts are important cool uh but the way that the arts were produced and consumed in china in the 1940s is really different than now today you know you didn't have uh uh poor peasants scrolling on instagram you know and checking out short videos like the the way the level of consumption is very different, especially today with a lot of art being consumed through short-form videos and social media, which these videos include visual arts, paintings, dance, even skits with theatrical elements. And each short video really packs an ideological punch, right?
Starting point is 00:27:11 It's extremely intense what we're subjecting ourselves to every day, even in short 10-minute bursts here and there. And so, what are some of the ideological trends that are. being promoted. It's nihilism, individualism. And then when revolution is being discussed, often it is unscientific. So we have to intervene here. And like Mao said, prepare the ground ideologically. We need to see where the masses are consuming art and then struggle on these platforms that we have access to. Because we can't fight Netflix with a proletarian Netflix. It's not going to work. Well, we're never going to have those resources. We never will in a
Starting point is 00:27:50 bourgeois society. That's the whole point. But we can infuse art with a proletarian content on social media or art shows through the production of music, collaborative short films, visual arts for protest, labor union struggles, labor union theater production. I mean, like the options are endless and just extremely exciting thinking about that. But then how do we start doing that? That's a pretty hard place to get to. But we have to start by building a base of revolutionary artists who have studied the science of revolution, Marxism, and just spread that sweet old ideology around. So through that getting to art for the people,
Starting point is 00:28:31 so art for the people is a building block, really, in this overall long-term picture. It's a mass organization of anti-capitalist artists, through which we strive to make proletarian art, art for the working class. And we have three points of unity. There's no art for art's sake. art shouldn't speak for itself
Starting point is 00:28:50 and art should serve the people, not just the artists. I'm going to go through each of these. So there's no art for art for sake. All ideas are branded with the stamp of a class. Our starting point is not the piece of art. Our starting point
Starting point is 00:29:06 is society, which in our case unfortunately is a class society. So all production, including artistic production, as a class character. And art is a physical manifestation. of a set of ideas. And these ideas will either help maintain the bourgeoisie,
Starting point is 00:29:22 keep them in power, or push forward the proletarian cause for revolution and ultimately a classless society. Now, Art for a time, was a progressive artistic movement in relation to the feudal ruling classes to help break away this artistic production from serving the feudal ruling class
Starting point is 00:29:42 and feudal ideology. So it helped to serve the bourgeoisie in their struggle against the feudal aristocracy. see. But now our fight is with the bourgeoisie and all art should help in our struggle against the bourgeoisie, which leads me to the other point of art shouldn't speak for itself. But first, I want to pass it on to Thomas if he has any thoughts on that. Sure. Yeah, just on this last point about art, not being for art's sake, I just want to emphasize, and this is something, you know, we've talked about in conversation, but this doesn't mean that art shouldn't be of good quality.
Starting point is 00:30:15 I think people can hear that and think that, you know, immediately, oh, it should just be a character, caricature, just say like revolution and that's kind of the end of the art piece. But I think for those who are familiar with your music, it's fairly obvious that you take quite seriously, you personally, but also for those who have seen art for the people, that it takes quite seriously, the need to produce high quality art that's engaging, because on Instagram or in the kind of cultural world we live in, you have to have well-produced pieces of art in order to really grab people's attention. You can have a great political message, but if the form artistically isn't good, then it's won't resonate with people. And I just want to emphasize that, not because I think it'll be necessarily the most common misconception, but often given the kind of mechanical and metaphysical way, kind of we're taught to think by the bourgeoisie and the society. People here are like, okay, no art for art's sake. They might think, okay, just arts for politics sake, which means forget about content, or sorry, focus just in content, forget about the form. So I think that's an important just clarification. Yeah, great point. Yeah, I appreciate
Starting point is 00:31:23 the point and it's the same really with a speech right i mean if your speech covers a lot of important concepts but doesn't get the people moving or really understanding and it's kind of jumbled and it moves from point to point um it's another example outside of art um how form should always serve content we should always keep that in mind but especially you know really an attack from the bourgeoisie on socialist realism is to basically turn it into a caricature so i think that's a really important addition. And because of this push from the bourgeoisie to turn proletarian art into caricatures, we really need to focus on why art shouldn't speak for itself. Because there are five major relationships in art. There's one between the artists and the world, between the
Starting point is 00:32:11 artist and the art object, between the art object and other art objects, between the art object and the world, and then between the art object and the viewer. So no need to memorize that, of course, but I just wanted to lay some of those out because what we're really talking about here is the specific relationship between the art object and the viewer. Now, the viewer most likely will dominantly in the society have a bourgeois consciousness. As this an art piece is a set of ideas, the more abstract the set of ideas are, the more likely these ideas are to be interpreted through a bourgeois framework. And for example, let's take the raised fist. It's generally understood as a symbol to fight the oppression. We don't really think of the race
Starting point is 00:32:56 fist as the fist of the oppressors, smashing the oppressed. But the interpretation of the fist is still open because, okay, the fist represents fighting oppression, but does it fight oppression in general? Or is it to fight the capitalist class? And if so, how do we fight the capitalist class? Through radical self-care or through revolution? Well, what is revolution? Is it a violent act whereby one class sees a state power from another, or is it a series of radical reforms? So for this reason, Art shouldn't generally speak for itself,
Starting point is 00:33:30 because how many people in bourgeois society would say the fifth represents revolution, which is a violent act whereby one class sees a state power from another? That's just not that chance is very, very unlikely. So the artist should intervene and explain the relationship between the artists and the world,
Starting point is 00:33:47 the artist and the art object, between the art object and the world in order to direct and guide the relationship between the art object and the viewer, which is just a really philosophical way is no, from the intro, we love talking about stuff in terms of philosophy, but basically what, like, what is this? This is just saying, why did I make this? And what do I mean? You know, the fist is revolution. This is revolution.
Starting point is 00:34:14 And this is why I felt I needed to make an art piece about revolution. The caveat that I want to raise there is that most art will speak for itself, right? That's actually the power of art. It's widespread circulation and emotional appeal. It's not that if I make a great piece with a raised fist, that I can follow it everywhere it goes online and dig through internet tunnels. And every time somebody watches it, I pop up and say, hey, this is what I mean. So whenever we can, we should intervene.
Starting point is 00:34:45 And with art for the people, it's during shows in which we. we show her art, and it's a very important component. And the last point there is looking at, you know, art should serve the people, not just the artist. And as an artist, I can say, it feels really good to make art, you know, and it feels really, really good to make art in service of the revolution. You know, as an artist for the people serving the artist, serves the people, right? But this is a fairly optimistic picture, because there's going to be a point.
Starting point is 00:35:18 in which serving the people could hurt your artistic career or in different ways, your social standing in bourgeois society. And we saw this after October 7th, we more sharply than previously with art relating to the struggle of the Palestinian people. And if you made art about it, it could come with serious repercussions. And at that moment, it is more important to serve the people rather than your own direct interests as an artist. So, yeah, I want to see Tom.
Starting point is 00:35:48 Thomas, do you have any thoughts at that point as well? Yeah, well, just on the last point, you know, people facing those repercussions, there was a very obvious example with Roger Waters where he was touring in Germany and he was performing, I think it was just performing the wall, you know, the Pink Floyd album. And they tried to frame it, his performance as anti-Semitic. And they kind of tried to ban him and there's all this backlash and calls to censor him on social media. Now, Roger Waters is a very famous world-renowned artist, you know, and he's taken a stand for Palestine for a long time. So it was very clear that, you know, A, they went after him, given, you know, the intensification of the Palestinian struggle and to try to set a message to other artists. Because Roger Waters, he might face some difficulty, but he's going to be okay. But it really was an attempt to kind of cow down other artists, to really be afraid to take a stand on the side of the people.
Starting point is 00:36:41 And it's worth thinking about, you know, the present situation in the U.S., the rest of the U.S., the rest of the people. revolutionary movement is pretty weak. In a certain sense, it doesn't exist properly speaking as like a strong movement. There's a lot of revolutionaries and Marxists, but it's not really like coherent movement. But as things develop, it will be, there will be more repercussions and not just for big name artists. And I know a lot of smaller name artists face repercussions different ways too. But it's really worth thinking about this point and really thinking about how artists can support each other and how they can, their art can both support the people, but then also the people will support their artists. And we see this very clearly in India with like the
Starting point is 00:37:23 Revolutionary Writers Association, Vera Sam, in the Telugu speaking states where a lot of the artists have historically come under great repression for supporting the Naxalite movement. But people really rallied to and defend them over and over again when the state tries to repress them. So on the one hand, it's kind of daunting to think about that, like facing repression from the state for supporting popular struggles. On the other hand, it's important to remember that the artist isn't on an island, especially given the individual, individualist culture of art in our society, which really does frame the artists as just an individual kind of almost divinely inspired in their work. Yeah, divinely inspired and kind of helpless
Starting point is 00:38:00 creature swayed by the pangs of emotions, you know, and all that stuff. But also they're entrepreneurs, right, which means they need to chase the bag instead of their feeling. So it's like a hopeless contradiction. On the one hand, there's this romantic notion of, oh, I's got to follow the muse, and I just got to make art when I'm inspired. to it and I can't pick a topic like the topic picks me and that and that that that whole idea there but then also I need to be a business because I have to be an artist in capitalist society. So, so really when we talk about organizing artists, that's our starting point. So in art for the people, the first step in organizing artists is to really get them to think through
Starting point is 00:38:41 the political content of their art to really have them understand that even when they make what they like, their art has a political impact. And then from that, we get them to think through the relationship between form and content. If I be working class, it doesn't mean that every song has to contain the word revolution. Or if you're making visual art, that you only portray people with their fists up. So what does it mean to use your medium to make proletarian art? Those are things that we discuss. And then we get people used to study. Because when we make art, we're shedding light on something and we say, hey, this is important. But not only are we saying this is important, we're saying this is what you should think about it.
Starting point is 00:39:24 This is how you should feel about it. All art is direction. So then should we have an understanding on what we're making art about and what we think people should think and feel about it? So we're having artists study before we make art. And then we do art shows during which artists have to explain their choices, informing, content, and we criticize each other's pieces. And then, you know, lastly, in talks at the Enon Forum, Mao talks about how art criticism is the most powerful tool we have at our disposal.
Starting point is 00:39:55 So through our education, agitation committee, we engage in art criticism. And we're also planning on expanding some of these committees, having a museum tours, film criticisms, et cetera. So art for the people then focuses on making art for the people. And many artists will be happy in doing it. that other artists will want to become revolutionaries, but in that sense, it's a genuine mass organization because they're revolutionaries active in Art for the People, and there are pathways open for mass organization members to become revolutionaries and link up with MCU, and
Starting point is 00:40:28 later we'll have some more discussion about the actual relationship between Art for the People and MCU, but it's not a prerequisite. And the fast, fast majority of people in Art for the people are not MCU members, although it has been really helpful getting their support. Yeah, I love the idea. I think it's, I think it's really creative. It's unique to think about organizing artists as such. And then this program of study, of education communally within an organization, the idea of putting out, you know, putting on little shows and like criticizing each other's art and having that sort of, you know, sort of comradly struggle together. I just, I think it's a really cool and interesting idea. I'm sure we'll revisit this idea. But for people out
Starting point is 00:41:12 there, I know for a fact, there are many listeners in this audience who are much more artistically inclined than they might be inclined to do, you know, theory work or whatever. And they would love to contribute to something like this. If somebody out there is listening, how would they get, how would they possibly get involved with art for the people? Yeah, so the best way would be through Instagram. And I'm just going to assume if you're an artist, you have an Instagram, but it's an arc for the people dot soul flow and we can yeah well we we can add that at the end as well but also I did forget to mention something about the shows that I still want to highlight here actually because we've had two shows you know the first being about how Democrats and Republicans don't
Starting point is 00:41:59 serve the people and a second one about worker exploitation but we've also made art for this SEIU janitor struggle where we met up with the workers and we showed them our sketches and then we asked questions like you know well how should we depict this should we just show the workers or also the bosses and then one worker said of course we should include the boss like we're not fighting against nothing we're not fighting thin air and I just I thought that was so good and so powerful and they said that the expressions should be proud and defiant and one of the sketches that we showed the workers at the workers in the background and a slogan in the middle And the feedback was that this should be about the workers.
Starting point is 00:42:37 Why not put the workers in the middle? The slogan should take a step back. And what was really striking to me in talking to them was how the workers were really asking for art that was similar as cultural revolution posters, actually, when you put everything together. And for the artists involved too, it was an eye-opening experience, how workers without a background in art could give good and important feedback about the form to serve the content. content, but also that the workers weren't subjects to feel sorry for, but that we really have to study and learn from their struggle. And then even then, there's a real limitation where the next step would be to pulling these workers into the organization, but also have artists take part in some of these struggles to improve their art and have the art be more effective
Starting point is 00:43:24 as well. I love the idea of instead of just bringing already created art to a protest to sort of show, you know, support to like actually go to the workers themselves. So here's some of this. It's like implementing the mass line with regards to artistic creation of going to these workers. We're making this art in honor of your struggle and to perpetuated it and assist it however we can. And then to show the sketches, get their ideas, go back, refine, bring them back to the workers, see how they think about it. I just absolutely love that. And again, I think it's incredibly unique. And I don't see, you know, an organization. I'm not aware of many organizations out there that are like this. So hats off. And I'll, of course, link to that in
Starting point is 00:44:00 the show notes. So anybody interested can follow up. and see how you can get involved directly. But I know space, and of course, this question is more directed towards space, but Thomas, you can obviously jump in and give your two cents, your influences or anything else you would want to say. But obviously, you're known space as a hip-hop artist, and that's how I came to be aware of your art. So how did you originally get into hip-hop, first as a fan and then as an artist,
Starting point is 00:44:24 and how do you and your revolutionary politics inform and influence the way in which you go about creating and promoting your music specifically, Maybe if you would like to talk about some of your influences here, that'd be cool, too. Yeah, man, my influences, there's so many. So it's going to be hard for me to hold back. Because, yeah, so many artists, because I was thinking about it, what has hip hop taught me? Hip hop has taught me a lot. I've been listening to rap, I listened to rap exclusively for many years, so maybe starting from age 11 to 15.
Starting point is 00:45:03 or something. It was all. It's all it had to be hip hop. But a lot of artists really, you know, shaped me to take a stance against what's wrong, you know, public enemy, black star, atmosphere, Keras 1, poor righteous teachers, the coup, and more contemporary, you know, artists like Bamboo, Rocky Rivera, Rubi Ibarra. Power Struggle was on the show. Shouted to him. We also got a track coming out in the vaults. You know, we worked on a little something together. Oh, yeah. So there's a lot of, you know, these groups that just taught me, if you see something wrong, you have to stand up and fight. But then there's also these groups who taught me how to tackle heavy topics with a light touch, you know, tribe called Quest,
Starting point is 00:45:43 De La Sol, freestyle fellowship, and especially A.C. alone. These were groups that really discussed heavy topics over funky beats and like a very light and breezy flow, a very comforting cadence. I learned so much from them. And then there's the technical side of things with that I'm cool to your rap who just taught me how to be ruthless on the mic gnaz and then especially common in his resurrection area you know
Starting point is 00:46:11 what I need from you is understanding that I'm standing on my own too down with my own crew toe cancer and bats it the bone too I'm prone to step off when I get off that cognac I can't hold back like a masseuse just crazy stuff I just I studied that whole whole album and the workplay
Starting point is 00:46:29 that he used and then And there's more contemporary artists, Kendrake, Mac Miller, doppelgangers, and, I mean, that's just the rappers. There's so many, and I feel like I've just insulted so many emcees right now, by not. Not including them? By not, yeah, exactly. So, Thomas, I'd be curious to hear some of your influences, too. But Brett, I'm also curious, who do you think is the greatest rapper of all times? So, you know, I'm just asking you a heavy, heavy question there.
Starting point is 00:47:00 yeah Thomas go for Brett answered no no you go first Brett you go first and then I'll respond because I want to hear your answer man I don't know the greatest rapper of all time it's it's so so difficult to even begin to to suss that out and you know as time goes on as as I'm always evolving I'm always being drawn not only to different artists but to to different genres of hip hop itself music more broadly but of hip hop itself I I mean I love every aspect of hip-fat from the old early 2000s backpack you know atmosphere, you know, doom tree, all of that stuff to, like, today's, like, you know, trap and drill, like push-a-easty. I love that shit. But a huge influence for me, especially in the
Starting point is 00:47:43 conscious hip-hop realm, but was also obviously very authentically, you know, street hip-hop was dead prez. I came across them very early in my political development. I mean, I just, like, stumbled upon them. None of my friends were into that sort of music at all. But I must have listened to that album, Let's Get Free Hundreds of Times in my late teens. And just to hear, you know, rappers talk about building a socialist economy and the clips from the Yahu-Roo speaker that they would throw in there where he was analyzing politics and, you know, what is the state?
Starting point is 00:48:19 I think one of the, I think the last episode we just released had a Dead Prez outro track. So I don't know if I can say who the best rapper of all time is. I think that's just too much for any person to say. but I can say that one of the most influential hip-hop groups, in addition to so many of the ones that Space already mentioned, Dead Prez is high, high up there on that list of deeply inspiring to me and really was like not only was it gritty and it's clearly from the bottom of society, but then just the racial black liberation consciousness
Starting point is 00:48:53 mixed with the liberatory economic politics because you can often get a good dose of, you know, a good dose of, of the black experience and black liberation politics from a lot of different types of hip hop. But to hear artists, you know, come out and say, like, you know, we're listening to Mao and, you know, we're communists. And that really shoved me ideologically more so into that direction and, you know, gave me a real source of inspiration. So I just wanted to highlight them if not answering your question fully. Yeah, I mean, I did you really dirty by basically just noncommittally naming for any artist that I liked and then just say, oh, who's the goat?
Starting point is 00:49:33 Who's the goat? But yeah, that press is a great answer. Thomas? Yeah, well, I definitely won't weigh on it. Who's the, weighing on who's the goat? But just to say a little bit of my own development politically and how music influenced it. Actually, originally, when I was really pretty young, I got into reggae music and maybe like six, seven years old. I heard a few songs. I got into it. And one of my favorite songs from probably the time I was nine, ten was Zimbabwe by Bob Marley and just, you know, emphasizing the national liberation struggle and the need to, you know, really overthrow the colonial regimes. And that instilled within me that song and a lot of the Reagan music that was more political, more
Starting point is 00:50:12 broadly, like a pretty strong, just basic anti-imperialist consciousness. When I started getting to hip-hop initially, I listened to a lot of different stuff, like, I'm not just bloomed my mind when I heard it, not politically, but just in terms of technical ability. Nause on that album is incredible. But politically, Black Star was a big thing for me, like listening to Most Def and Talib Kuali. And then as I really kind of, I was 18 when Obama was elected, that was like a big thing. I believed that things were going to get better because I hated Bush. I was pretty naive back then. And then when they didn't get better, I was like, wow, the Democrats suck. And then I started to really get into Lupe Fiasco's music, and especially when
Starting point is 00:50:58 he came out and called Obama a terrorist. And I think a few years after that, like Food and Liquor 2 came out. And that album was, yeah, probably the most influential political hip, most influential political hip-hop album for me. But there's a bunch, you know, Immortal Technique and others. Off the top of my head, I'm not so great at naming all them. But yeah, like Space said, I insulted so many by not naming them.
Starting point is 00:51:24 But yeah. Definitely. Yeah. A couple older artists from like the 90s that stand out to me now that I'm thinking about it is Big L, the lyricism of Big L, the word play. But also, I think a big album that was huge for me. I don't really hear people talk about it a lot. It's sort of lesser known. But Goody Mob's album Soul Food.
Starting point is 00:51:46 I remember just I listened to that dozens and dozens of times. And there's like critiques of Clinton era politics, right? Because this is in the 90s. But I would encourage people. who want to go back and get some of that conscious, but also gritty 90s political hip hop to go check out Goody Mob and their album Soul Food
Starting point is 00:52:04 because that just jumped to mine as a huge inspirational and sort of milestone album that I listened to at a very crucial age as I was transitioning into more radical politics. And it really shows and highlights the necessity to really study form. Because, I mean, Big L said some horrible,
Starting point is 00:52:23 horrible things about women in his songs, you know. But then he, this use of humor in rap music is really something to be studied. You know, I had this line, I wasn't poor, I was poe, I couldn't afford the OR. You know, some of these, these little quips and lines, it's just, it's a really effective way of using humor to get some points across. But then, yeah, we have to unite with the positive and, of course, rejecting the negative. And in a lot of these artists, there's a lot of negative to reject. So I did want to say that.
Starting point is 00:52:59 But, you know, for myself, I started rapping seriously from age 13. I wrote 16 bars every day. I took my craft really seriously. I have no idea where that dedication came from at such a young age. But just from the beginning, it was everything to me. But that was terrible. So nobody wanted to give me beats. So I started making beats at age 15.
Starting point is 00:53:22 So I've been rapping and making. beating beats for over 15 years now. And I grew up in the Netherlands and I got into hip hop to my older brother. A big shout out to him. And he was part of a hip hop forum called Crime to Rhyme. So I started doing these online battle reps. I was 11 and just battling people through text basically. And I took, yeah, it was crazy.
Starting point is 00:53:45 And I took part of this competition and the deadline was midnight and I got way too stressed. And I remembered like 1130. I cried to my brother, to my mom. Like, I can't do it. And so I dropped the mic, you know, at age 11, the stress got too much for me. But that whole journey really got started, became deep for me during a hot summer's night, which I know sounds mystical, but this is really how it started for me. I couldn't sleep.
Starting point is 00:54:11 It was so hot. We don't have ACs in Holland or we didn't then. And so my door was wide open. My bedroom window was wide open. And my brother's bedroom was across from mine. And he played very loudly all of Drey's 2001 from beginning to end. And I was just mesmerized. So I'd never heard music like that before.
Starting point is 00:54:33 And I just wanted to know everything about it. I didn't just want to listen to it. I wanted to find out everything there was to know about it. So far from a young age, when I got into hip hop, I immediately checked out stuff from early 80s, you know, early 80s to late 80s, early 90s. Really interested in the origins of it. played a lot of cool G-Rap, NWA, EPMD. But when I was 13 and I heard public enemies, it takes a nation of millions to hold us back.
Starting point is 00:55:03 After really listening to that album, I was like, you know, I can't do this great injustice to the world. I need to pick the mic back up because I got to make music like this. I recorded my first song, just me, which I still remember the chorus, 13, Casey, 06, just me, music, my passion, take your time to grab it, stop for a while, but now back to have it. And back to have it was the gap between when I was 11 and 13 when I put down the mic forever for those two years. And then, you know, fast forward 10 years later, I'm a communist with an even deeper love for hip hop, but I just wasn't sure how to marry the two.
Starting point is 00:55:44 And in all organizations that I was a part of, I noticed everybody was saying how important art was. But not only that, everybody had a specific story where a piece of art had fundamentally transformed and changed their lives. So there was a heightened awareness of the importance of art. And there was even a great support for my music. But there was never any concrete ideas about what to do with this. So before 2020, I tried to start an artist collective. I was living in Miami. But nobody wanted to bite.
Starting point is 00:56:18 people are like, oh, this is a cool idea. And that 2020 really changed something. And when I told about art for the people, you know, three years later, people were down and we're very excited to take their responsibility about art to make it in a collective way. So now at this point, I do feel like politics and my music are just completely intertwined. And no worries, if not, an album that I recently released is really a culmination of just my political experience, the theoretical side of making proletarian art,
Starting point is 00:56:53 and hopefully, you know, making some music that sounds good, you know, because ultimately I have a deep passion for hip-hop. And if I don't contribute to it with some shit that sounds good, then there's no point in doing it. Thank you for believing in me, giving me energy to resist the bourgeoisie, read a theory with the comrade, revolutionary synergy, feeling spirited enemy. What sharp is the mind, sharp is the blade of the guillotine, aim and I let it bleed, running a mile like I'm running in a mile where the style got the competition throwing in the towel out.
Starting point is 00:57:34 I was a live mouth coming up, huh, then I took a look under the rugs, see what the ruling class swept up, huh, pushing fast food and drugs, keep us in the rug, running up just to get another bus, just another touch of an angel love, covered up with dust. It's of another night Thinking what can I do, make it right Eye mic on the mic and then off the mic And white high strike making mic at night Blood tastes sweet like Mike and Nike
Starting point is 00:57:56 Enemies up the people meet the light tonight If you run a sweat shop like night You're going to twirited in a shop when I shit, never mind I know they're listening to the mind of a revolutionary mind A child with a violent design I wasn't born like this With the world arming us, arming us And they wonder why we arm in us
Starting point is 00:58:12 Ayo move and they bomb in us But they can't kill all of us Tell me if you're bad about it Tell me if you're downed down it Revolution shout it Go in so we can out Go in so we can out Go in so we can out
Starting point is 00:58:28 Go in so we're This world's a weird one Cutting up on you shoes To not loose ends Stick a skid bun I don't fear none I just got tasks To get check get cleared on
Starting point is 00:58:40 You all talk or you did none Till we all walk We can't run So go step by step The Immaculate Space, baby on the track, Let the dots connect Up in France playing my cassette They're back in you trek dead like I said
Starting point is 00:58:52 All these old souls stuck in the past But we studied a pass To escape the path And make a new one Got nothing to lose But some old kicks and slashed on you shoes Back in 2010 I just sit bruise And chase tails and cut blues
Starting point is 00:59:05 Now the good news I still make beats And freak dates with new techniques Plus now I know the fuck I'm talking about So now I'm reading Marks letting him out Tell me if you're about it, about it, tell me if you're downed, down it, revolution shouted, going so we can out. Go in so we can out, out, out, out, going so we can out. Every class enemy has an address. What good is the court if the judge couldn't care less?
Starting point is 00:59:35 What good is the court to the system when it's rep, round your damn band act? That's no fan us. Just profits and margins. They'll do anything just to offset. rights and protests if you go beyond a I bet they got your clock set ready to off it often they lie suicide to have their own carnage
Starting point is 00:59:51 sick of old bad news look at your life feeling miserable while your presence hit is a miracle thank God it's Friday five days wasted for my pay working for their profit woke her down easily like a profit more like a park hole in the cops chase money money money flowing in their pocket
Starting point is 01:00:10 bombing a rocket is talking about progress Won't come from Congress congregated about conquest Bloodthirst mindless Exactly why we gotta change mindset We're calling reptiles because they spotless When we armed with collective offense That's no stop in what we can accomplish That's fucking right
Starting point is 01:00:27 Sick of these motherfuckers Tell me if you're about it Tell me if you're downed down it Revolution shout it Going so we can out going so weaken out of yeah absolutely and you know one of the one of the possible traps of trying to do political music of any sort is that you can sometimes fall into the trap of being too dower
Starting point is 01:00:58 to you know to whatever pessimistic or too serious-minded and certainly there's a place for that but i think jumps to mind not that this is a critique of him at all but low-key very heavy topics you know there's not a lot of dancing or having fun low-key's music is about the liberation of Palestine full stop and hats off to him he's a wonderful artist and a wonderful speaker and a wonderful advocate for Palestinian liberation but one of the things that you are able to do is to make serious political music that is fun that is engaging that speaks to the you know day-to-day struggles of regular ass working people right not merely the hyper-conscious theoretically informed political person that happens to like hip hop, but hip hop fans who are also working class, and then there's like
Starting point is 01:01:46 a sort of, you know, leading them toward an objectively radical revolutionary politic. So I remember the reason that I reached out to you was because I was listening to one of your songs and I couldn't help but move around, you know, and just like bobbing my head and like, this is fucking good. This is nice. And it's different. It's unique. So, you know, hats off to you for being able to strike that balance. I think it makes your art in particular, particularly potent. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And yeah, that's a song, Where's My Money? Which you can check out the music video before and Marxism Today. And the whole album was just, okay, let me just make a bunch of songs that contain a bit of sloganeering, but then the music videos have some more depth to it. So, I mean,
Starting point is 01:02:27 that's a whole other thing where, okay, combining the form of music with with film and, okay, you know, the relationship between the two. But especially with that video and the, with the beat, which which many have found infectious, which I'm very happy because that is what I was going for. It's like, okay, yeah, you're dancing to it. Where's my money? I'm saying, where's my money? And then before you even know it, you now have the Marxist's perspective on money and exploitation through the video, you know, and hopefully sparking some curiosity there.
Starting point is 01:03:02 And hopefully, you know, when people learn some of that stuff, they'll have some funky music playing in their mind, you know. So if I'm able to help make this stuff fun and engaging, which if you really engage with theory to transform the world, this shit is fun and engaging. But in the beginning, it can totally not be because you're so overwhelmed. You know, so I think art can also help with that to pull people in for like, look, it's a good time, maybe sometimes in the beginning. We studied a lot of theory.
Starting point is 01:03:29 It could be a little challenging. But just believe me, you heard, you know, the three of us really kind of geek out about philosophy at the beginning of the episode. It studied this shit for long enough, you know, it all attains that level, really. Yeah, absolutely. Now, I want to bring up what I think,
Starting point is 01:03:47 especially not even on this topic in particular, but the one we were talking about before, about the necessity of revolutionary art and, like, the artist's responsibility in a lot of ways. When you start talking like this, one thing you'll hear from obviously non-socialist quote-unquote regular people,
Starting point is 01:04:03 they'll immediately sort of be sort of offended and be like, you know, art doesn't always need to be political. Not everything needs to be political. And that's sort of advancing this idea of the possibility of non-political art. Of course, you know, you and I would be suspicious of such a thing. Many art that masquerades as quote unquote non-political serves very distinct class interest. And that's why certain music is elevated to mainstream status and got huge corporate entities behind it. And other music absolutely does not and never will, but to the average person out there who would say art doesn't always need to be political, what would your, both of your responses be to that sort of, that sort of
Starting point is 01:04:42 line? I would just tell them you're right. Don't worry about it. No, they say, yeah, I mean, you know, all art has a, as a class character. And even, it's especially important to talk about it when it's not so explicit. And, you know, we really saw this with, with intensification of the struggle in Palestine because okay what was the main art that was being produced in the US
Starting point is 01:05:10 from October to now is it a whole bunch of art that is in full support of Israel no predominantly it's not it's just art that doesn't speak to any of it at all you know so if we have a
Starting point is 01:05:27 political crisis a political situation that people need to talk about and there needs to be direction about because even with palisai we're not going to say like oh well just do your own research and you know try to find out you think about it's because like no support the the liberation of the Palestinian people you know we would give that direction and if somebody supports Israel we would tell them to feel bad right so it's already this direction of thought and emotion um in conversation so with art it's the same principle we want our art
Starting point is 01:06:02 to actively support the liberation of Palestine and for people to feel joy and excitement when they think about Palestine. So the issue isn't necessarily usually that the opposite is happening. It's just more that art that doesn't speak to these political struggles can detract from these political struggle.
Starting point is 01:06:23 Now, does that mean that every artist right now needs to only make art about Palestine? Of course not. But when the status quo is that basically almost no art is being made about Palestine, then we have an issue. And the same thing goes with the necessity for revolution. Should all artists at all points constantly only make art about how we need a revolution? I mean, honestly, that would be pretty cool, but it would be hard to pull off, you know, to have everybody make original art about that constantly. So it's not
Starting point is 01:06:56 necessarily about that. But what it is is that the status quo is for there to practically be no art that speaks to the necessity of revolution. So we have an issue there. But not only that when we say that we need proletarian art, what we're really saying is that we need art that has a proletarian
Starting point is 01:07:15 perspective or puts forward a proletarian world outlook, which of course has a relationship to revolution, but really can be about many things and could be about love, about loss and grief, you know, how do we
Starting point is 01:07:31 speak about grief. Do we wallow in it for years? You know, we, you know, we, I don't know, dropped our ice cream and now we're in a three-year depression about it in our bedroom and we can't, no, right? That's not how we want to relate to the world. And even with actual bigger forms of grief, we want to talk and speak about grief, one in a collective sense. We want to tie it to the struggle. What is the origin and root of this grief? Why do we have thoughts about what we've lost a way that we do. And you don't always directly need to speak about revolution in order to really do that. I'm curious also, Thomas, what some of your thoughts are on this as well? Well, you've said a lot. That's really good. I was going to just have a quip and say,
Starting point is 01:08:17 well, I just have an artistic response and send them Amiri Baraka's spoken word poem against bourgeois art, which I think just sums it up so well, this idea of, you know, non-political art. And critiques it. But just to add a little bit to what you said on this topic of, you know, making political art in a capitalist society, I think tying this into what I said earlier, there's so often a caricatured form put forward by the bourgeoisie and even by especially petty bourgeois radical critics. And a lot of times that it's the petty bourgeois ideologues in the art world and in academia who do the work of the bourgeoisie. for them, really critiquing the idea of revolutionary art and culture by saying, oh, that's so blasé, that's so, like, didactic, that's so uncultured. And what they mean is it's direct and clear, but they sometimes use certain bad examples of poorly
Starting point is 01:09:21 made art to claim, okay, well, yeah, that's just like hitting you over the head and it's too simple. Sometimes there's truth to that. Sometimes they're just expressing disdain for clear message. But I think with your last point space, you know, there's a need to explain a lot of things, not just the need for revolution, but to teach people and provide social commentary through art on a whole bunch of things going on in our society from a revolutionary and proletarian perspective. This is tied to the point that Lenin makes and what is to be done, really about agitation and propaganda, that the only way the working class can develop true class consciousness, true proletarian class consciousness is through coming to understand
Starting point is 01:10:03 all the different dynamics in the society, not just their own struggles, not just their own economic struggles or political struggles, but all the different strata and groups in the society and how they relate to each other. And so in what their various interests are and
Starting point is 01:10:18 struggles are and so on. So actually you can do a lot as an artist in different ways. That is revolutionary, even if not directly talking about revolution in every piece. It is complicated how to handle that because you do need to be, if you're a revolutionary artist, pretty explicit about the need for revolution. But you can also do the great job mocking the absurdity of the U.S. elections, which doesn't need to be so much about revolution, but just the way that the Democrats are kind of,
Starting point is 01:10:46 you know, constantly going on, for example, about how Trump is a threat to democracy and then themselves promoting all these reactionary laws and the hypocrisy of that and so on. There's a lot that can be done. I'm not an artist, so I'm kind of just spitballing a little bit here. But my point is that there's a lot of different social issues in the society that need to be taken up and discussed. And realistically, which art does take up, even if it's not explicitly political. And there's lots of bad ways that people in our society in so-called non-political art are taught to think and feel and relate to stuff. Like, for example, a very common issue in our society given that it's oppressive, if people will experience a lot of bad stuff, a lot of loss,
Starting point is 01:11:31 a lot of sadness, a lot of difficulty. And a lot of the non-political art so-called teaches people to wallow in that to really kind of take on the subjective affect of enjoying really being very depressed and sad. And then the capitals come along and say, hey, you feel depressed and sad. Here's some advertising that you can buy some stuff to fill the void in your life. Or you can binge on Netflix to distract from your sadness. And so that sort of art nominally, on the surface, it appears not to be political. But it is reinforcing a certain subjective affect in the society, which clearly serves a particular class interest, namely that of the bourgeoisie. Yeah, incredibly well said.
Starting point is 01:12:10 Space, you have anything to add? Yeah, it's because of the fact that this is so, you know, we're really talking about a complex set of ideas and also how the responsibility of the artist is pretty complex. So there's this line from Rent Collection Courtyard. It was a series of sculptures from the Chinese Revolution made by a collective of 18 amateur professional sculptors in a Sichuan province on the eve of the Cultural Revolution. It's a collection of life-sized clay figures. But they have a line in there that says first make the revolution in ideology, then make the revolution in art. It was like one of those things where I was trying to find out, okay, what does it mean to be a revolutionary artist? I was like, oh, shit.
Starting point is 01:12:53 Like, this is it. This is the core component. And to say a little bit about the rent collection courtyard, you know, this group of artists, so they wanted to make art about what it was like, what it was like as a peasant to have rent collected by the feudal lord. So what they did is they lived and worked in a courtyard where feudal rent had been collected by this landlord called UN site. And so the courtyard still existed, but was now part of a commune. And what the artists did is they integrated with the workers who used to be poor and lower middle peasants. And by integrating and working with them, they were able to take on their class stand.
Starting point is 01:13:31 Also really developed the level of hatred that he needed to really show the power of resistance of these peasants. So they kind of talk about that in the article. We needed to really feel what the people felt like in order to convey this emotion in a very deep level. But not only that, they studied Mountedon thought. and the class relations of feudal China. And the article reads, Through the outer appearance of the collecting of rent in this one courtyard,
Starting point is 01:14:00 they could grasp the inner and real essence of the life and death struggle between the peasants and the landlord class. So through this particular, they and the viewers were able to grasp the general essence of feudal society. And so never forget class struggle. And many people traveled for long ways
Starting point is 01:14:18 to see the series of sculptures. And the article also talks about how people would say, oh, you know, these figures are really made for us on our behalf. They choose the landlords, their crimes. They speak for us. But it was by making a revolution in ideology first. Then in sculpture, they were able to do so. And they said that in the past, they'd styled themselves as observers of life and educators of the masses.
Starting point is 01:14:43 But instead, they needed to receive education first before educating others. And they needed to put politics in command first. And this is really important for artists now. All art is branded with the stamp of a class. We either make proletarian art or bourgeois art. And if we don't study proletarian ideology and Marxism, wouldn't that be incredibly hard? So because we're so enveloped in bourgeois ideology,
Starting point is 01:15:11 we really take study seriously in art for the people. And this is nothing new. Now, Amiri Baraka, Thomas had talked about him before, you know, a true revolutionary artist. He was going around campus. telling people, you want to be a good artist, start by studying Lenin, which is hilarious and true also. So tied to art for the people is a curriculum called art and class struggle, and it's a curriculum
Starting point is 01:15:34 where we study Marxism through art. So we learn about the basics of political economy, class revolution, and really use art to help our understanding. And we also, for example, study a text from the culture revolution where we talk about even instrumental music as class character, which always blows people's minds like, holy shit, classes everywhere. Like, yes. And then we also talk about talks at the Edan Forum, basic foundational texts of now, the responsibility of artists and the function of art in a revolutionary movement. And so the idea is that at the end of the curriculum, the artist has a basic understanding
Starting point is 01:16:09 of some principles of Marxism can differentiate between proletarian art, petty bourgeois radicalism, and most of all, is excited to continue to study Marxism and put this stuff into practice. With that relation between theory and practice, I wanted to take a little philosophical detour. I know we've been talking about things in a philosophical way, but I want to get a little bit deeper to really drive this point home. Sure. Because something that we've talked about before is the contradiction between the particular and the general. The particular meaning, let's say a specific flower that we pick, the general here meaning all flowers. So we can't have one flower without the existence of flowers in general.
Starting point is 01:16:51 But we only have flowers in general because we're actually able to physically pick up that one flower, right? So I'll get back to that in terms of how that relates to art. So when we create artist revolutionaries, the hammer and sickle turns into a hammer and a mirror. As artists, first we hold up a mirror to the world. Any work of art is a reflection of the material world. And as an artist, we could choose to reflect anything. So how do we choose what to reflect? Well, we always make art about something in particular.
Starting point is 01:17:22 But this particularity in turn should reflect something general. So there we have it again, the particular and the general. So if we make a good artwork about a flower, we'll also be saying something about all flowers. And a good song about a revolution will say something about all revolutions. So we should consciously reflect the general through the particular. And that's our great tasks as artists. You know, to make something so stunning, so beautiful.
Starting point is 01:17:48 So piercing, it moves people to action, but also has a greater understanding that goes beyond the work of art itself. But artists can't walk around with the mirror all the time. It's heavy. You're going to get tired. It's not a good idea. And it'll also keep you from scientifically observing the world and people around you. Because we can't just have this detached look at the world simply as a way to see, okay, what can we make art about? Shout out to me in my late teens, which I totally, totally looked at the world that way.
Starting point is 01:18:18 Unfortunately, but we have to look at the world as it is. And through that observation and most importantly, interaction with the world, see what to make art about. What to make art about depends. It depends on our interaction with the world. So you can't magically throw up a mirror to the stratosphere and then have it point at something, right? You're the one holding the mirror. And so if you're a worker on strike, you're going to make art about the strike. It's a part of your life.
Starting point is 01:18:45 And if you've never worked a day in your life, you go on walks. every day, you're more likely to make art about a flower. And so that's why we have to immerse ourselves in struggles. We have to scientifically analyze it as the struggle. And that's when we'll know how to hold up our mirror. How large should it be? At what angle should we hold it? At what distance? This is, you know, how we'll know how to hold up the mirror to reflect our practice in the world. And it's great talking on this podcast really has made me incredibly self-confidence. conscious about the way I said mirror. So there you go. I can never unheard it now. But basically we reflect a particular struggle. Well, we'll say something about all struggles. And that is how
Starting point is 01:19:30 a work of art can attain universal significance. Because once we hold up a mirror to reflect something in life and we know what to depict and how to depict it, we then have to turn it around and reflect upon ourselves, look inwards, assess their own consciousness. What do I know about this? What class outlook am I going to reflect? And what is my own relationship as an individual to the subject matter? So that's the mirror part. Then when we make the work of art, we pick up a hammer. Our work of art necessarily reflects the world through our subjective consciousness, but we also need to shape reality. We have to mold reality. We have to strike reality with our hammer. And with the relationship between the general and the particular established here,
Starting point is 01:20:17 we can go into the relationship between form and content because the form we choose should highlight the content because form changes content if the content of my painting is a stripe but I'm painting it from a two mile distance
Starting point is 01:20:31 it's going to change the nature of the content right if I make a song about a strike and one verse is from the perspective of a striker and the other verse is from the perspective of a scab and the language I use as to striker is abstract and attached but the scab is concrete and direct, it changes the whole point of this song.
Starting point is 01:20:51 So the relationship between form and content should point to the same thing, which is the truth, but truths of a specific kind. You know, Brecht has a saying that this artist who speak the truth by painting murals on a sinking ship.
Starting point is 01:21:07 And that's the truth, right? If you paint a flower on the wall of a sinking ship, and you've just spoken a truth. This flower exists, but these aren't, the kinds of truths that we should speak. Because we should speak a truth that moves people to act.
Starting point is 01:21:22 To show the powers of specifically the working class to make revolution, change the world, to show a proletarian world outlook of all aspects of life and to show how people are already acting to change the world. What this different world would look like. There's just so many
Starting point is 01:21:38 options. And to show all the people who aren't treating Marxism scientifically, the semi-Marxists to transform their world outlook. to study militantly and join in the struggle. And of course, to speak the truth, we need to portray reality. But realism is not the same as naturalism. Because if I portray a boss with red eyes and fangs like a vampire,
Starting point is 01:22:02 it doesn't portray the truth the way that my boss materially looks, but it does portray the nature of the social relation, which is that my boss extracts my surplus value in a vampire-like way. So the form here serves the content, and it is the wide variety of forms that we can use to convey the truth that the creativity of art really shines through. And this is opposite to the bourgeoisie, which generally has content serve form. The bourgeoisie and petty bourgeoisie, especially since the late 19th century, made shoot leaps in form because they didn't have anything new to say, right? But we can use these developments in form for our purposes. Because like I said before, to speak the truth in art means saying this is important.
Starting point is 01:22:49 And there's a difference between saying the sky is blue, the truth, and the working class must take revolution to overthrow the bourgeoisie, which is also a truth. And artists tend to speak truths of the first kind and not the second. So to quote Brecht again, anyone who says soil and describes the fields to nose and eyes by speaking of the earthy scent and their color is supported. hoarding the lies of the rulers, for what matters is not the fertility of the soil,
Starting point is 01:23:19 nor man's loge of it, nor his diligence, but instead principally the price of grain and the price of labor. And it is precisely because of this, that the artist must first make a revolution in ideology and then make the revolution in art. Because if not, then how do you say the truth, but also which truth is currently the most important to share? Right. So we don't make the revolution and ideology individually. We have to make it collectively. Good shit, man. Deeply, deeply insightful.
Starting point is 01:23:52 So on point. And I can just imagine that any artist out there listening has to be inspired by that because that was incredibly well said and beautifully done. All right. Well, let's go on to this last question about art and its relation to revolutionary politics. And then we'll shift into a conversation about the MCU. So the final question on this front is what role can or do?
Starting point is 01:24:14 artists play in revolutionary politics? And I know you've touched on it a little bit, but maybe there's something else to be said. And what are some things that artists who consider themselves communists, as I'm sure many of our listeners do, should reflect on and engage in. Any tips you would have for them and anything else you want to say about AFTP? Yeah, if you're an artist and a revolutionary, you're a revolutionary first. And when it comes to the necessity of making revolution, you know, we of course understand that we can't make revolution without building a a communist party. And so Art for the People
Starting point is 01:24:48 is a mass organization. We're talking about two different organizations here, MCU and Art for the People. So with Art for the People being a mass organization, the points of unity are anti-capitalism. So if you're against capitalism, you know it can't be reformed, but don't really know what revolution means
Starting point is 01:25:06 for what it is. Join us. Let's make art in support of the working class rather than the ruling class. Let's make art collectively. You don't need to be a revolutionary to join art for the people. You just need to be against capitalism and want to do something about it through either making art or even engaging in art criticism. Again, lots of lots of people in art for the people are not revolutionaries. But MCU, on the other hand, you know, is a pre-party formation and people who want to become serious revolutionaries should link up with MCU to join. But also, you know, people active.
Starting point is 01:25:43 in art for the people have really strongly benefited from learning from MCU comrades and to learn from their revolutionary perspectives, even if these artists, you know, didn't choose to become revolutionaries themselves, but we're still able to support it in different ways. But I'm just excited for Thomas to speak a bit more about MCU and what the organization does. Gave what you got, nothing more. Warzone hot, bust and soul. ambush pop but you brush the spot like you forgot you got immortal soul leaves for green rivers red in a team with no limit set just the gauge one the odds of favor in a place for rage or a complex savior cool heads for the new dead pick up their arms now you said back to the camp do it again follow the plan hit him again thanks for arming us masses follow us cause the conscience of what we plan defend what you can attack with a band pray that the fan understand because one of these days in a blaze by time will end
Starting point is 01:26:43 people's war till communism people's war till people's peace thieves in the night they steal the living but you can't steal the decease shit yeah love for the martyrs love for the martyrs love for the martyrs love for the martyrs so let's shift to the creation of of the Maoist Communist Union what is the MCU who was behind its launch and what are its primary tasks both in the short term in the long term. So MCU was founded in 2020. It really came out of actually and was kind of the natural outgrowth and development
Starting point is 01:27:24 of an earlier organization, the Erestroil Mass Proletariat. And Mass Proletariat was founded in 2016. And at that point, it was also a, you know, Maoist pre-party organization. And I was involved in the founding of Mass Proletariat at that point. we actually split off from another group, the Maoist communist group, and I won't get into that so much, you can read some of our documents about that. But at that point, their kind of Maoist movement, or really wasn't quite a movement, but milieu in the country was at something of a crossroads. And I won't talk too long about this because I really want to focus on MCU, but a little
Starting point is 01:28:02 bit of this background can be helpful for people. The new Communist Party liaison committee, which was a kind of loosely associated, somewhat kind of series of groups kind of on Facebook, kind of organizing, especially some were organizing in New York, had fallen apart. And there was a bunch of kind of Maoist people on Facebook in this group called Communism 101. Maybe some people remember it. And discussing and debating Maoism. And there were all these little Maoist groups in different cities that formed up. And our idea, those of us in mass proletariat, we were really just confined to Massachusetts at that time.
Starting point is 01:28:37 was we'll link up with the other groups and we'll bring together the ones who are good and solid politically. And for those who followed the trajectory of the Maoist movement in the country, and again, I say movement is really not quite a movement, but people may be familiar with the fact that that didn't happen so much. Unfortunately, the Red Guards really rose to prominence, and we wrote some criticisms of them as mass proletariat and had some debate and kind of public polemics against their views. but a lot of groups either join the Red Guards or were kind of wrecked by them and I won't get so much into that history
Starting point is 01:29:12 but that's a whole can of worms maybe some other time and so we developed much slower than we initially had hoped to partially because of this also partially just because
Starting point is 01:29:23 of our own internal confusion like myself I had really just become a Maoist that year a lot of us were really trying to figure out some basics how do we organize how do we get stuff
Starting point is 01:29:32 off the ground politically how do we link up with others Maoists, how do we engage with people who aren't Maoists, where Marxists of one form or another, try to win them over? Because as a pre-party organization, we have a very high level of ideological unity. And this was really an essential lesson from the experiences of the Bolsheviks, which unlike the organizations in the Second International, the Bolsheviks really saw the need to create an organization of the real left wing. of the communist movement. And I'll talk a little bit more later on why that that was important. But, you know, a group like the SPD, it was the real hodgepodge of different organizational tendencies, political tendencies, really. You had people like Carl Leibnick and Rosa Luxembourg, but you also had Koski, who kind of sat in the middle for a while before really taking a sharp rightward turn. And you had people like Bergenstein, who was, you know, openly advocating revisionism and celebrating revisionism.
Starting point is 01:30:33 And so drawing on some of those lessons from the beginning, we really saw that we can work with a lot of different people, and the Bolsheviks had many United Front efforts. We really need to consolidate the core of cadre who are united ideologically and politically. And so through various twists and turns, we did develop slower than we expected. And by 2020, we had a number of different branches in different cities and a kind of mix of supporters, some of whom were kind of ready to take steps forward as cadre. And we'd gotten, so to speak, we got our shit together. We had our systematic, which at the time, looking back on it wasn't so systematic, it was our first systematic kind of internal study plan. And we'd worked out some basic logistical stuff, summed up a lot of our experiences.
Starting point is 01:31:16 And so we had branches in three different cities. And we'd decided, okay, with mass proletariat was kind of a bad pun on Massachusetts, which is kind of funny, looking back at it. So we need a more specifically, we need a different name and a name which more specifically and clearly articulates our ideology. And so that's when we founded MC, Maoist Communist Union. And we published our first issue of red pages
Starting point is 01:31:43 of Theoretical Journal and founding statements in early 2021. And from there, we've been involved in a lot of different struggles and developed through various twists and turns. And early on, especially, you know, we participated in George Floyd in 2020, And we struggled to find a good way to participate. We had some existing kind of what we called mass work at the time, somewhat based
Starting point is 01:32:09 amongst the homeless and starting to get kind of going amongst tenants. We also had some organ amongst students, but obviously during George Floyd and COVID, people weren't on campuses. And as we really started to, well, the George Floyd protests happened, we engaged, we threw some people into studies and discussions, but we weren't able to play something of a leading role, which makes sense. We're a small organization. But we started to reflect more broadly on our overall approach politically because like many of the groups we were doing, and it varied in the three different cities, but forms of some types of mutual aid work. And we quickly realized
Starting point is 01:32:47 that that was not going so well. I mean, we were able to draw a lot of leftists in to support that work, especially some of the stuff we were doing amongst the homeless. We had founded and created a mass organization, United Front Against Displacement, which had a lot of supporters of MCU involved in it, but also had a lot of, you know, activists broadly, even who weren't so supportive of MCU, but wanted to do something.
Starting point is 01:33:14 But we saw amongst the homeless, just the conditions for organizing weren't so ripe. I mean, it was hard to get meetings together. People were in very unstable housing situations. There was a lot of drug use, a lot of kind of just violence amongst, the homeless, which was really hard to see. And then we were fighting, like, efforts to displace the homeless by the police and the city governments. And so from there, we kind of
Starting point is 01:33:39 shifted our focus to forms of tenant organizing. And we found a lot more fertile ground. And so as MCU, we were doing this, but we were really building up this mass organization, United Front Against Displacement. We had a good deal of tenants involved in it, some national calls of tenants sharing, organizing experiences, and our main focus was public housing. And for those who don't know, you know, the U.S. government really has been aggressively privatizing public housing since really the late 80s, early 90s. And more than half of it's gone. And the public housing situation is tough because it's one of the few, especially in cities that are much higher in cost of living, one of the few places where a good deal of working class people can live because your
Starting point is 01:34:28 rent will be adjusted with your income. So if you lose your job, your rent falls to next nothing. If your income goes up, your rent goes up. And there's a lot of issues in public housing, but the privatization efforts drove a ton of people off of the public housing and into the streets, honestly. And I want to be clear, we had some real successes in public housing. And this is just one of the forms of mass organizing we were doing at the time. But it was actually through these successes that we realized we needed to reevaluate things. And from here, I'll step back and explain a little bit more of more of what we do as MCU more broadly and what our line is. But I think this kind of explanation of some of our practical work can help to clarify a little bit more
Starting point is 01:35:10 why our line is what it is and what the specifics of our political line and our approach are right now. Yeah. So, you know, I'm based in New York City. And here in New York City, there about 600,000 people living in public housing, which is roughly the size of the city of Boston population-wise. And there's an aggressive push to privatize it. And we had been doing some organizing, especially in Harlem against privatization, had some successes, pretty decent-sized protests, a lot of tenants signing onto a petition. And to fight against privatization, we protested against the mayor specifically down at City Hall. And we were able to link up with different other activists groups. And as MCU, we were kind of playing the ideological guiding role in this mass
Starting point is 01:35:57 organization, UFAD. And people reached out two of us in Coney Island in New York City and wanted to fight against privatization near. Reached out to, sorry, I should say, UFAD, and MC members were participating in and providing leadership to. And so as UFAD, we got involved. And we fought privatization and we had protests of hundreds of tenants for the first time. That was like the biggest protest we'd had. And we actually stopped privatization at a building. And it was our biggest success in our mass work to that point. It was really exciting. And that we realized, okay, we've stopped this privatization, but we've done really very little that's been successful in winning the tenants over to communist politics. There's a few. Don't get me wrong. But overall, we've realized just
Starting point is 01:36:47 at that moment through that victory how unfavorable actually the conditions were to really through the work we were doing in housing went over the people were fighting those mass struggles to communist politics and this was due to a series of different factors including of course some internal mistakes we still were largely secret as MCU we had a secrecy policy and I could talk more about that a little bit later um but overall it was actually the subjective conditions amongst public housing, uh, residents that made it hard. And so we started to really reflect on this and realize that, you know, we'd had some deeper theoretical confusions, which I think have been theoretical confusions really for about 50 years in the, the Maoist movement
Starting point is 01:37:36 in this country. And I'll explain that in the second, but let me just explain the confusions of selves first. Namely that, you know, while ultimately there's a lot of work to do amongst housing, that uh or amongst like housing residents public housing uh struggles amongst tenants in the fight against gentrification and evictions and so on that first and foremost communists need to base themselves amongst the working class and specifically amongst their economic struggles and in some of our discussions and debates and reflections internally in this period we went back and read what is to be done and right there in what is to be done lenin's very explicit that the economic struggles of the working class are the union and labor syndicate struggles.
Starting point is 01:38:20 So both the existing unions, the efforts to unionize, and the struggles around the economic exploitation of the working class. And there's other struggles that the working class is involved in, which are important. And what is to be done is really emphasizing the importance of those struggles and understanding the broader struggles in the society, not just the working class's struggles, but that fundamentally the communist work needs to be based amongst the working classes battle against the capitalists. And it's from that battle that a lot of the political struggles arise in the society, specifically
Starting point is 01:38:48 the proletarian political struggles. And it's through that organizing effort that really were able to develop the working class movement into a forrest capable of overthrowing the bourgeoisie. And when we read this, it just kind of clicked. And I'll explain a little bit more at this point. but just to say, going back to really some of our founding as mass proletariat, one of our major etiological influences was a lot of people who had left the RCP. Some left or were kicked out, left in the 70s and 80s.
Starting point is 01:39:23 And these older comrades, they were never involved in mass proletariat, but they'd done a amazing job summing up a lot of the successes and failures of the RCP. And they shared a lot of stuff about Maoism and with us, really helped us to understand. so much of the kind of lessons of the communist movement over the last few hundred years. And they were really, I think, at that point, the best critics of the RCP, like serious critics, not just the typical stuff you hear today about how the RCP just sucks. And the RCP now is, you know, a terrible organization politically, in my view.
Starting point is 01:39:59 But they did some important stuff in the 60s and 70s before they degenerate it. But unfortunately, these older comrades and somewhat unsurprisingly hadn't sufficiently summed up the lessons of the RCP's mistakes, and in particular had themselves taken on some of the RCP's confusions, namely this specific point of thinking that the role of communists is just to go amongst the masses and engage and join up with the existing mass struggles and spark somewhere they are. And while that's true, what they missed and what therefore we missed was the specific importance of organizing amongst the working class. And in particular, amongst the industrial proletariat, given both their ideological receptiveness to communist
Starting point is 01:40:45 politics above and beyond other segments of the population, and also given their role in the economy overall and their ability to really paralyze, actually, the bourgeoisie and the economy in crises. So that's a lot. There's actually a lot more to say, but maybe I'll pause there if you have any further questions. No, no, I love where this is going. And yeah, for the point about the industrial proletariat. Again, I point people to the episode I just did with Chase of the MCU where that entire argument is laid out deeply and expansively for people to realize just how important that element of it is. But by all means, please go on and I'll do a follow-up when you're fully done answering the question. Yeah, and that's a great point. So I don't
Starting point is 01:41:28 have to go as in depth right now because Chase just talked about a lot of this stuff. So in really realizing this, we actually were already doing a good deal of work amongst the working class movement, in particular, amongst the organized working class movement, and in particular, actually in UPS and in the contract struggle that was brewing last summer, which ultimately resulted in the sellout contract, which now there's a lot of growing anger amongst the UPS workers. It was billed by the Teamsters leadership, for those who don't. know as this historic victory, and so then the UPS workers didn't go on strike, and actually a lot of the things that the Teamsters leadership promised, and Sean O'Brien promised, the president
Starting point is 01:42:14 of the Teamsters, weren't delivered in the contract, and some of the main demands the workers have. So we were already in a strong position doing some work in the UPS contract struggle, and I want to talk about the details of that in a moment. What we've really realized is, okay, like, in order to make revolution in this country, in order to really build up, before we're even getting close to making revolution, a communist vanguard party, which is really a vanguard of the working class that has the advanced section of the working class within the party.
Starting point is 01:42:50 We need to concentrate our practical work amongst the industrial proletariat and engage in their struggles. But then the question becomes, okay, we're a relatively small organization. We don't have the forces or anything approaching the forces to do that on a large scale. You know, even with the so-called de-industrialization of the U.S., which the U.S. is still like the second biggest industrial producer in the world, you know, there are a lot of workers who are industrial workers. And we have no way at our present scale in size to really send people amongst them to the degree needed. And we don't have enough people at present to even send. the people into all the major unions and have people left over to two other stuff. And there's a lot of different tasks.
Starting point is 01:43:36 A pre-party organization has to take. So how do we get from being a pre-party organization to a Vanguard party really be fused with the advanced section of the working class? And this was a question we really grappled with from the last summer, like in 2023, up until roughly this spring, early summer. And what we really came to is that our key task right now is very important. much akin to the situation that the Russian Marxist faced in the 1870s and 1880s. Now obviously Russia in 1870, 1880s pretty different than the U.S. It was still a semi-feudal country. Russia.
Starting point is 01:44:13 There was a czarist autocracy. The word of the czar was supposedly literally the word of God. In the U.S., we have a very highly developed capitalist country. We have bourgeois democracy with all of its suppression and censorship and repression. But it's very different. than absolutist Russia. We don't have a peasantry, et cetera. But nonetheless, our situation is somewhat similar in some key ways. Namely, there's a relatively large pool of kind of semi-Marxists out there, you know, people who are kind of interested in Marxism know a bit but are a bit eclectic or who are kind of called themselves socialist but haven't really read so much Marx, or who are kind of leftist and interested in Marxism, but a lot of whom are consolidated
Starting point is 01:45:00 or are influenced by various non-Marxist theories or semi-Marxist theories, you know, and under the influence of various semi-Marxist groups. And there's a lot of differences between different groups out there. And I won't get into all that right now. But in the 1870s and 1880s in Russia, the situation was pretty similar. The most popular ideology amongst the kind of revolutionary-minded section of the population was neuradenism, a kind of petty bourgeois, utopian, semi-socialist kind of semi-peasant ideology. And what needed to happen was at the same time that these early Russian Marxists
Starting point is 01:45:42 took up the struggle to lead some of the working classes struggle, they had to really wage the ideological battle, the theoretical battle against neuradenism and win over the revolutionary minded people to Marxism. And so that's very much the task that's in front of us. And part of that entails, you know, writing articles, critiquing various semi-Marxist theories or revisionist theories and trends. Some of it includes an option that the Russian Marxists didn't have, which is coming on podcasts like Rev Left, which functioned as a larger forum for debate in the left and amongst Marxists. And to really try to win over as many as possible potential bearers of revolutionary theory to the working class, to win them over to MLM and to show them really. the path forward in our view for the development of the working class movement and its ultimate fusion with Marxism. And in order to make that fusion happen, we of course need to organize amongst
Starting point is 01:46:40 the working class. But our earlier organizing and the lessons, including especially from our successes, are really important here, which is that if we do some work and win some practical struggles, but don't do a good job really teaching people Marxism, then we'll be left with very little. And that was very much the case with our work amongst the tennis. Even where we tried to teach people Marxism, we didn't have so much success, again, partially because of our own mistakes, but I think principally because of the subjective conditions, they're not being favorable for it. But actually, what we've seen is through our work in the Teamsters, the section of the teamsters workers who are really the fighting section and this includes a fairly
Starting point is 01:47:26 wide variety of ideological trends but those who have really taken up the fight against the capitalist and also against the union bureaucracy and the reactionary union leaders that that section of the working class is actually very receptive to Marxism because the Marxism It's, you know, the scientific analysis and breakdown of the class struggle. And so these workers, day to day, in their struggles they've been waging, sometimes for decades, they're grappling with these realities of the fight against the bosses, against the capitalist, the relationship between the capitalists and the government, the way the reactionary union leaders sell them out and collaborate with the government, the ways in which they can get
Starting point is 01:48:06 some concessions from the grievance system and from the courts, but not much, and how the courts overall side with the capitalists. And so actually, our experience has shown these workers, those who aren't already interested in Marxism, but are involved in the class struggle, find Marxism incredibly interesting and appealing and revealing. And then there are a subsection of workers who are in the, not just in Teamsters, but in the existing unions, and a smaller subsection outside of the unions in some of the efforts to organize the unorganized, who are already something of Marxists.
Starting point is 01:48:41 And most of them, you know, they have some eclectic views sometime, as they've read a bit. But they're really trying to bring Marxism to their struggles. And this is not unlike, say, someone like Veitling, who kind of had some form of utopian communist ideology in the mid-19th century in Germany amongst the artisan workers. And these workers, Weidling is a separate case, but these workers were already taking up Marxism to some degree. actually the conditions are right to get studies together of Marxism amongst them. These are really the advanced workers in the U.S. And they're still few and far between, but they're out there. And so in addition to winning over the semi-Marxists to Maoism and to supporting
Starting point is 01:49:25 MCU and to getting involved in MCU, we're also working closely with these advanced workers, those in Teamsters and through our work in Teamsters, making broader contact with others across the labor union movement. and we don't have so many together. We've done a few studies and discussions of Marxism with some of these workers and to really went over the advanced workers to Marxism. And if you read some of Lenin's writings from the 1890s, I think maybe a decade or so ahead of where we are, maybe less in the U.S.,
Starting point is 01:49:56 in certain ways a decade ahead, but maybe in certain ways less than a decade ahead, what Lennon describes as the advanced workers, they read the Marxist papers and they get it, that they get the papers, they understand them, and then they go and they help with the aid of the, you know, Marxist organizations, like the League of Struggle for the Emancipation of the Working Class, they lead studies with the intermediate workers to train them in Marxism and to develop some of them into advanced workers, but even those who don't become advanced workers who remain intermediate,
Starting point is 01:50:28 they can then explain Marxism and Marxist perspective on their struggles and the larger society to their coworkers. And that, you know, obviously played a tremendous role in the advancement not only of the working class movement and the strike movement in Russia, but really in the founding of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party in its development. And that's a very broad overview. I mean, there's a lot there. There's a lot more to say about all this. But of kind of how we see our present tasks and how our line has developed and been refined through a mix of theory and practice over the years. Yeah, I love it.
Starting point is 01:51:04 love the the thorough and determined nature of the organization, tracing out your history, having a coherent ideological line, the lessons learned from past struggles, advancements via experimentation, the strategy and the analysis being completely on point. I think all of this points to an incredibly serious organization. And I am fully in support of this development. And, you There is sometimes this, you know, from other tendencies on the Marxist left, a sort of denigration of Maoists given some of the, you know, I don't want to call out any, whatever. We mentioned Red Guards earlier, right? Sometimes that becomes the predominant view that people have of what Maoism is all about. And of course, you know, that's not the case. But to see this organization come together and really put Maoism on the map in this really principled way is exciting and wonderful. And a question I would have, and you touched on this a little bit, and certainly you mentioned your United Front in the past, is I'm interested in your willingness to work together with other organizations,
Starting point is 01:52:15 your relationship perhaps to Marxist-Leninist organizations, right? Because one of the things about Rev. Left, I think, is that we sort of hold that line where Marxist-Leninist and Marxist-Leninist Maoists are both 100% embraced and welcomed. And the dialogue between them, I think we've even in the past tried to set up a friendly, comradly debate between some of, I know space was involved in this for sure, and some MLs on the question of China just to facilitate that sort of dialogue between those two sections of the revolutionary Marxist left. So I'm really interested in your willingness to work with other organizations, how you view Marxist-Leninist organizations, and where and when do you draw the line ideologically when it comes to. making those types of decisions? Yeah, it's a great question. There's a lot there. So first, I'll just emphasize some of our broader principles around the United Front, and then I'll get into some more specifics. Sure. And just a side note, yeah, I was involved in some of those discussions
Starting point is 01:53:20 about trying to set up a debate. And if some groups who support contemporary China and argue socialists want to debate in a comradly fashion, myself and others who are Maoists, I think that would be great to set that up still on Rev. Left. So even though it fell off through the cracks, if others want to do that, I'm still game for it. I think it would be a great discussion of debate. Totally. In terms of the United Front, you know, the United Fronts are complicated things. And they can, they need to be entered into in small and big ways over and over again. If we look at the experience of the Chinese Revolution, we can see actually the two united fronts with the gomindang were actually two different united fronts the first
Starting point is 01:54:01 united front with the gomindang when the gomidong was under the leadership of sun yitzin the gomidong was a revolutionary organization in a united front for the liberation of china with the chinese communist party and in the second united front the gomindang was a comparador capitalist uh and feudal organization sponsored by some imperialist powers and by the big landlords in China and the comparadors that the Chinese Communist Party was sort of able to force into a United Front through the Shian incident
Starting point is 01:54:36 when they kidnapped Shankashak and force the Gomidang to at least take something of a non-intaginistic stand and that was a challenge to that whole second United Front against the Chinese Communist Party so that they could unite the country against the Japanese invasion And so just looking at that, those two examples tell us there's an extremely broad degree
Starting point is 01:54:59 of possible United Fronts that a Communist Party or pre-party organization can enter into. And the question of when to enter into United Front is always somewhat situation specific. But a broader general principle of the United Front is that the United Front is a struggle front. This is something that Ganapathy, the erstwhile chair, sorry, General Seventh, Secretary of CPI Maoist said in his interview, I think in 2011 with Yan Mirdal and Gautum Nablaka. And you can read that interview. It's very illuminating. He talks a lot about the United Front in Mirdal's book, Red Star Over India. And in the United Front, a series of actually different class forces come together, given some form of shared objectives and goal.
Starting point is 01:55:44 And as a communist organization, we have a very clear immediate and long-term goal. You know, the immediate aim of the working class movement is the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the establishment of socialism. And the long-term aim of that movement, or the long-term aim is the establishment of communism, a classless society. So any united front that we enter into has to aid in those two goals. And so we're going to be entering into those united fronts in particular struggles that we think can advance those goals and with organizations where we think,
Starting point is 01:56:22 or individuals sometimes that we think we can collaborate with to advance those goals. But in entering into these United Fronts, we also are struggling against the groups that we're joining with or individuals. Now, ideally to preserve the United Front, if possible, the struggle doesn't take on antagonistic dimensions. We don't want to be sectarian. But we do need to struggle over the direction of the movement that we're kind of participating in together, over strategy and tactics, over how to relate to each other as separate organizations, what degree of unity is possible, how much should we coordinate joint action, and we can never sacrifice our independence of initiative. And so to give an example of the, in the second United
Starting point is 01:57:09 Front, with the Gomingdon, if the Chinese Communist Party had said, okay, we're in the United Front, so we won't struggle against the Gwomingdon, we'll let them lead the war of resistance against Japan. Well, that war would have been lost and probably capitulate it. and chankechak probably just would have launched his next offensive against the CCP and if the chinese party had you know the chinese communist party just stopped their struggle against the uh landlords then the peasantry and the mass base of the party would have evaporated and likewise if they'd stop the fight against the capitalists in various ways um the working class would have stopped supporting the party in the revolution and stopped supporting to certain degree maybe not
Starting point is 01:57:52 actively supporting, maybe passively supporting the war of resistance against the Japanese invasion. But the party, the Chinese Communist Party, had to change some of their tactics. So they changed how they wage the struggle against the landlords. If a landlord was patriotic, meaning they would be really willing to support the struggle against the Japanese invasion, then they would not just expropriate all their lands. And they would limit the degree of capital exploitation by the capital of us. But they wouldn't necessarily just drive the capitalists out and collectivize their property or so on. There's a lot of subtlety, these policies.
Starting point is 01:58:34 But some of the landlords were allowed to keep some of their land and rent some of it out, or some of them were allowed to keep the land that they tilled and then had to give up some of the rest of the land to the peasants. And there was real limitations placed on how much exploitation these exploiting classes could have. but they weren't totally expropriated as they were earlier in some of the struggles and the capitalist is a little more complicated
Starting point is 01:58:56 because you've got the national bourgeoisie and the compradors in China and I won't get into all that here and sometimes anti-communist historians will say oh look the Chinese Communist Party it was all a trick because as soon as the war of resistance
Starting point is 01:59:10 against Japan was done then they turned against the landlords and well the main contradiction changed and the basis for that United Front dissolved, and the landlords wanted to increase their exploitation of the peasantry and wanted to run Chinese society. And so naturally, given that new principle contradiction, the strategy and tactics need the change and the basis for the United Front dissolved. Now, a more general point before I get into some particulars, one of the things Gannapapha
Starting point is 01:59:38 mentions in that interview is that at times there's also a basis for a United Front, even with a section of the enemy. So the example he gives is in the struggle in West Bengal against CPI Marxists. For those who don't know, there was a struggle in the early mid-2000s that developed, which was quite intense, against the Communist Party of India Marxists, who had run West Bengal for a long time, 40-something years, as they sold out the land of tens of thousands of peasants to multinational corporations. And there was just tremendous anger amongst the peasants
Starting point is 02:00:12 and then also amongst the workers, and a slogan arose in the struggle, we will give up our lives, but not our land, because people didn't want to see their land that they had sometimes for generation become like a Dow chemical plant. And the CPI Marxists sent their cadre in to basically just attack and brutalize the peasants. And there became a very, very intense resistance movement to this displacement. And in the course of the struggle, CPI Maoist played a very important and leading role, especially in one portion of the struggle in Lalgar. But they entered into a united front with various bourgeois electoral parties in India.
Starting point is 02:00:53 And they didn't subordinate themselves to these parties, but these were parties which fundamentally supported the ruling class, but tactically, which opposed CPAM, which had been such a power block in West Bengal. And in the analysis of CPAMOists is a social fascist party. And I don't want to get into that or debate that. Now, but my point is there's a broader general principle here, which is that in the eyes of CPM Owest made sense to tactically unite in certain ways with the other bourgeois parties, including Trinomwell Congress, which is I think still the ruling party in West Bengal, against the CPIM, because breaking their ideological hold in that state and their power, and they'd been very violently suppressing the revolutionary movement for a long time, was essential to opening things up for further development. of the revolutionary movement, even though it meant making certain compromises with various ruling class elements. And if we look at work in the reactionary unions, this is a very typical
Starting point is 02:01:52 example, or very typical case, where when one reactionary union leader really comes under fire, others will step up and suddenly present themselves as progressive figures for the people. And sometimes tactically, it can make sense to work with those people kind of putting on a reformer's garb. But you can't subordinate yourself to them and just tail them. You have to, when possible, make a united front, if it makes sense, to oust a particularly bad reactionary leader, but then also be critical in that united front and understand that that's temporary and contingent. And that it may be that after you oust one reactionary leader and another union official steps into that role of leadership, that that same union official. who worked with Revolutionary is in the more militant section of the workers, we'll turn around and start suppressing the workers.
Starting point is 02:02:45 So those are broad reflections on the United Front. To get into some of the particulars, I think the Vote No campaign at UPS is a great example. So we played a pretty prominent role, MCU, in the Vote No Campaign at UPS. We joined a pre-existing mass organization of UPS workers called Teamsters Mobilize. and Teamsters mobilized had actually been founded about a year before we joined, so around 2022.
Starting point is 02:03:14 Because of real frustrations a lot of UPS workers had with Teamsters for a Democratic Union, which is a caucus within Teamsters, which was founded by Sumtroskiists back in the 70s, not never an exact date off the top of my head, and TDU has played the role for a long time of a reform caucus in the union and waged a number of progressive struggles. especially against Haifa and his corruption and some of the more gangster tactics that the Teamsters leadership used. But with the election of Sean O'Brien, TDU really went all out in supporting him. And TDU now is very close and supportive of Sean O'Brien. And in the TDU conference, or convention, I forget, a conference, I think it is,
Starting point is 02:03:59 a lot of UPS workers, especially the part timers, were very frustrated that TDU didn't take a stronger stand. for part-timers, for their wage increases, for their conditions, to get them more job stability and other things. And very frustrated with, in general, a lot of different issues in TDU, and so some of them broke off and founded Teamsters Mobilize. And we actually didn't know about that when we had some of our comrades join up and go into EPS, but pretty quickly it became clear as the contract campaign was heating up, that Teamsters Mobilized was going to play something of an important role, national.
Starting point is 02:04:35 as it was a pre-existing hub of workers who were pretty militant fighters against the capitalists and against the corruption, the union, and who were fed up with TDU not really taking a strong stand against the O'Brien administration. And so we joined it and participated in it. And for those who don't know, Teamsters Mobilized was the organization, really, that led the Vote Notepo campaign in a meaningful sense. and a number of our cadre are in leading positions now in TDU, or sorry, not TDU, and Teamsters Mobilize.
Starting point is 02:05:10 And that's because of the trust that we built with the workers that here, you know, our comrades are, a number of our comrades are our Teamsters and UPS workers. And a lot of the Teamsters Mobilized members are strong supporters of MCU. And so in this vote no campaign, we as MCU are already in a certain sense, you know, in a, you know, mass, participating in a mass organization, we all sort of entered into a united front with a number of other organizations, a few Trotskyist organizations, a socialist alternative, and left voice that took a strong stand on the vote no campaign. And they really supported voting now, and they said the contract was a sellout contract.
Starting point is 02:05:52 And some of our comrades wrote an article that was published in Cosmonaut magazine that maybe we could link in the episode description, that people can read about just to understand. understand why the contract was the sell-out. Now, with a socialist alternative and also Tempest collective did some events, which is like some people, I think, from the ISO. And with the left voice, we have a lot of differences with them politically, like a lot of differences, to be clear. And I say, you know, we generally see Trotskyism as a revisionist ideology.
Starting point is 02:06:26 And there's a lot of different Trotskist groups out there. But in this case, it really made sense to work with them to support opposition to the sellout contract. And we weren't able to work like super closely, but everything because we had some serious differences. But actually, there was some good productive collaboration that came various events and speaking together with some events and so on. But we kept our organizational independence. And in contrast, a lot of other organizations like PSL, and like Frizo and others really strongly supported the contract and supported the union leadership. DSA took a neutral stand, like we support the workers, whether they vote to oppose, support or oppose the contract, which is kind of funny.
Starting point is 02:07:16 It's, you know, what do you think? But DSA, there were different sections in DSA that took a strong stand in particular red labor caucus. In DSA, they took a very strong stand against the contract. And so we worked with them. we have a lot of differences with the groups who worked with, but we were able to have some very good collaboration on the Vote No Campaign specifically. And we also discussed and debated, for example, with Red Labor, a whole bunch of different questions about Marxism. And even though we still had a lot of disagreements at the end of it, it was very productive to have those discussions and debates.
Starting point is 02:07:48 So that gives you some sense of how we handle the United Front. In one particular instance, there was a line, you know, a dividing line. Do you support or oppose? as contract, and those who were opposing it, we generally tried to find ways to work together, despite our ideological differences. And I mentioned three main groups that we worked with. We were able to work closer to some than with others, reflective of some of our ideological differences, and also some of how groups wanted to work or not work together, given their own line. So I also think what we found is that within these groups, there's also, honestly, often a fairly wide range of
Starting point is 02:08:29 ideological consolidation. So at TDU in 2023, a number of our comrades attended, as well as members of Teamsters mobilized at the end of the TDU convention last fall and participated and introduced a
Starting point is 02:08:47 resolution, basically calling for TDU to take a stand in support of the Palestinian people, and for TDU to take a stand calling for Teamsters to really, you know, oppose any sort of support. Because the Teamsters Union has historically, very strongly supported Israel. Hoffa, you know, bought all the Israel bonds and really, you know, just pretty gross stuff. And unfortunately, this was really shut down by TDU leadership.
Starting point is 02:09:17 But what we saw in the debate over whether this should be even discussed and debated at TDU, if political questions like taking a stand on Palestine should be discussed and debated, is that while the organizational leadership of some of the kind of groups like Frizo generally opposed discussion of this topic, he wanted to shut down discussion of Palestine, a lot of the membership on the contrary really wanted TDIU to take a stand on Palestine. And I think those contradictions existed a lot of groups where sometimes less, maybe members who were less consolidated to the group's line,
Starting point is 02:09:53 or maybe there's just internal divisions on these questions. And so that's a tricky thing to navigate because we want to unite with people who want to take a similar stand where possible, but also if the group itself is fairly divided, that can be hard to find ways to work together, even if some members want to work together, but leadership doesn't or maybe leadership itself is divided. So there's a lot of complexities and solities with the United Front. I think we certainly don't have all the answers, but hopefully these reflections give some sense of how we've handled all this stuff. Yeah, I think the reflections not only give a good sense of how, you know, your organization has handled. these things in a really fascinating and detailed way, but I think it's also a wonderful blueprint, a set of advice and lessons learned that can be more widely applied because all organizations at some point, whether they're pre-party organizations or community organizations or anything
Starting point is 02:10:43 else, are going to bump into this exact sort of issue. And you know, you have to strike that balance again between having, you know, solid principles and a core line, a struggling over that line and then engaging with organizations who have shared interests without, as you said, being you know, subservant or subordinated by by their line or, you know, have it dilute yours, etc. So, and, you know, just the split of how that, of what organizations backed that contract was, is very fascinating. They're not necessarily intuitive with regards to how you would think that split might, might break. But yeah, very, very interesting and very instructive, I think. for organizations out there
Starting point is 02:11:26 who, you know, I know organizers listen to this show and we'll be listening very intently to that sort of discussion and find it very generative. So let's go ahead and we're getting towards the end here and I know this is kind of we're going kind of long so I'm going to kind
Starting point is 02:11:40 to combine these two questions, these next two. So the first part of it is what is the relationship between art for the people and the MCU? And then where does Marxism today? That wonderful YouTube channel fit into all of this. Art for the People was founded by me with help with some other comrades
Starting point is 02:11:57 and they were basically MCU comrades helping to set that up from the beginning but it wasn't it didn't start as okay this is just an MCU organization basically but the MCU comrades have been
Starting point is 02:12:11 incredibly helpful in helping to set it up but really to set it up as a genuine mass organization where there was you know very clearly the need okay, we need to organize artists, we need to develop proletarian art, and for new people within art for the people to get that help and support to be able to lead it as a genuine mass organization. So right now on the mass organization, we have most people in leadership positions are not a part of MCU. So there is that strong, definitely presence of MCU comrades, MCU cadre, also MCU supporters.
Starting point is 02:12:55 And then people who aren't necessarily revolutionaries could even be kind of interested in MCO revolution, but really mainly interested in the question of art and making proletarian art. And we're hoping that the more that we develop the mass organization of art for the people, the more it'll really truly become a mass organization, something that the masses of artists will flock to around that anti-capitalist point of unity. Whereas, of course, the points of unity of MCU are much more narrow than that, you know, really having them to be distinct organizations. And then, you know, when it comes to Marxism today, especially me, Paul, And Jay had relationships for years, kind of online, being online Maoist, online Maoish. And look, I'm not going to say that I helped to develop Paul into a Maoist, but I'm also, you know, not going to say that I didn't have an end in helping him get there.
Starting point is 02:14:04 Shout out to Paul. Shout out to Paul. There you go. Big shout out. And so those relationships were already there. And we've been talking for a long time, but just consolidating Maoist media, basically. You know, Maoist media that we have this unity on, okay, we do need to carry out this, this Maoist message, but we're going to do it online. So it's going to be broad either way.
Starting point is 02:14:33 And then, yeah, me and Jay had been studying together kind of online in these study groups. So it just all came together really nicely. And then through these connections with MCU, you know, just very clearly seeing how principled and knowledgeable MCU Comrades are. But then also, you know, especially, you know, Thomas obviously is this huge thing. We're just like, right, just put Thomas in front of a mic and they'll drop those marks as gems. You know, like, I, you know, we got to, we got to get Thomas involved and, you know, just find different ways to, to, to collaborate. So what I'll say about all this is there's this, this wider, I think, Maoist movement, just malice momentum, I guess, of different people really putting their heads together.
Starting point is 02:15:23 And how do we put out a malice line and how do we work together in ways, knowing that there's going to be some differences and even, you know, some organizational capacities are going to be different. So it was a mix to that with these online personal relations. relationships that that had been forged already, that produced a very helpful collaboration in a mass organization like Art for the People, but also to a media collective like Marxism today. And especially, you know, after Anna joined, had joined the team together with Paul and really taking the channel like a wider direction, more cultural criticism and getting some more direct analysis of the ending. we were like, it'll really be great to get involved in this. And definitely we should be back to talk more specifically about Marxism today.
Starting point is 02:16:22 Because there's so much there that we haven't been able to talk about either. Totally. Yeah. And it's been a long time since I've had Paul on. So, of course, open invite to Paul and what him and Anna and all of you are doing over there is awesome. Always been a fan of Marxism today. I've really enjoyed watching the channel continue to evolve and hold space on YouTube, right, which is this huge, huge sort of machine that billions of people around the world at this point are plugged into. So what I see with Art for the People, MCU and Marxism today is this ecosystem of really principled Marxist-Leninist-Mau's work. And I'm excited to see it, and I'm happy to lend the platform of Rev.
Starting point is 02:17:01 Left to get the word out to a broader audience about these wonderful developments. I highly encourage anybody who is already a committed Marxist-Lennonness Maui. to look into these organizations, see how you can help. But if you just want to learn about it, if you just are interested in it, you want to learn more that you couldn't ask for better comrades than Thomas, Base, Paul, Anna, and all the others involved with these organizations. So reach out to them, make sure you follow them and, yeah, keep learning. So for the final question, just as an obvious one, how can people who want to get involved
Starting point is 02:17:33 with the MCU or AFTP reach out and get involved? And importantly, where can listeners find you? and your individual work in art online. Yeah, so for Art for the People, we're mainly active on Instagram at Art for the people. Soflow. Soflow spelled S-O-F-L-O. So-F-the-P people.
Starting point is 02:17:55 And then that's the most important that you just follow that page. For me, it's U-L-L-L-A space baby, which, you know, came up with the handle a long time ago, but I just can't let go of it. So there it is. It's there. But mainly just follow, follow art for the people. There's going to be a lot of good stuff there. Cool. Thomas? Yeah. So for Marxism Today, you can find us on the Marxism Today YouTube page and on Twitter as well. And then for MCU, we have an email Maoist Communist Union at riseup.net. We will also have a Instagram up and running soon. So you can check out also our website, Maoistcommunist union. WordPress.com. And
Starting point is 02:18:38 I also want to just mention we, through our student mass organization RMS, which just sends dissolved it, we didn't really talk about that, but that's actually an exciting development because we're kind of expanding to a broader audience. We had a summer study this past summer with 150 participants online on Socialist China. And that was pretty exciting. Part of the reason we're not doing student work is just because there's a huge number of people who aren't students who are getting involved in that study last summer. And so we want to be able to run broader studies. not just student-specific, although obviously students are definitely welcome. And we will be next month starting another open study, and we're going to run those pretty regularly.
Starting point is 02:19:18 So on some of the basics of Marxism, we'll read things like state and revolution, we'll study the Russian Revolution, Chinese Revolution, political economy. So once we have our social media page up and running, I think, in a few weeks, hopefully. You can follow us there on Instagram and, yeah, check out the studies that we have if you want to get involved and learn some more. Sweet. Yeah. And, of course,
Starting point is 02:19:40 when that Instagram page drops, I'll share it on my Instagram. So you can go to Rev Left Radio Official and follow that right now. And then when that comes online, I'll make sure to share that on my story and try to get the word out about that and funnel people in that direction.
Starting point is 02:19:54 But yeah, thank you both, Thomas and Space, so much for coming on. Rev. Left for engaging in this deep, comradly and deeply principled a conversation. I'm really excited. You have an open invite anytime you want to come back on to Rev. left to come back on. And, you know, if we ever can get that debate going, I would love to foster that as well, you know, just to showcase again that people with different ideas about
Starting point is 02:20:17 a very tense subject can come together in a principled way and, you know, and have an actually productive discussion that people can learn from, not one of these spectacles that you see online where it's just who can, you know, who can attack the hardest and everybody gets in a defensive posture and picks aside before it even starts. You know, I want these things to be actually generative and educational and so hopefully we can still make that work i have not given up on it yet um and if anybody's interested reach out to me or reach out to these comrades at all the places that we just mentioned and maybe we can you know find some some people on the m l side of that of that divide to come on and do exactly that um but again that's right and i'm afraid that i was
Starting point is 02:20:57 i was a little too humble because i forgot to mention where you can find my music please oh yeah which that i do uh so yeah artist's name is space baby and i'm pretty much on all streaming platforms and on Bandcamp as well and if you want to check out my latest album just look up Space Baby and the album is called No Worries if not. Absolutely and I'll link to that as well.
Starting point is 02:21:19 Thank you both so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon. All right. Thanks for the push for having us. Yeah, it's the 1848, 1871, 1917 to 49, the battle is won. But the battle ain't done with 66 still in the mix amidst the epistle in which we rattle the truck. Because what the fuck else is there, but in office shop, the dough and go sit in our rest of pride. Tickle all the senses, but the laughter never echoes on.
Starting point is 02:22:06 A moose push and the, yo, the word ain't born, the truth, baby, the word is gone. Talking on, I want to be a renaissance, man. Next day, fake you like an almond prasanne. Then the alcohol connects. Last night's panic attack. The next day's panic attacks. The next step up selling sex, don't bang it. I'd rather be a motherfucking communist, shit.
Starting point is 02:22:26 Now watch a liberal of Oak Reagan's economist, shit. Now watch me when I'm over with the one one soul. A space is not a jackabin, I'm all I told my soldier with the strength of guy fucker ya and group. We're stirring up the people and we're talking than the rich. It's a class struggle, man. What the fuck you expect? We'll go down underground and get the food of our net. We said we got it good, but we don't.
Starting point is 02:22:49 Setting up a scaffold and the rope. We said we got it good but we don't. We said we're going to lose, but we won't. We don't get caught up in between with the narcissists. We don't kick, we don't kick. Don't get caught up in between with the wicked nonsense. Do you know your own history, you don't on your vision? If you don't, then the vision sets the tone with the boom-blown rhythm.
Starting point is 02:23:15 I'm not gone with the wind. I'm at home plod and how it's warm the globe to make a living. If we want it, who will? Beginning, it starts with the linen and coats. From the land to the tiller, getting what were you out? From the means to the means to the class that makes it happen. And if it's the reason, a ship that God damn it with a captain. Though we can't control the seas, from the breeze to a breeze to a breeze to a wind.
Starting point is 02:23:36 wind to an energy unleashed from a spark to a fairy fire from Minnesota to a rural town in Ohio study the immortal science then the patterns are revere reality is rare with progressive steady mass in its sphere it's all for the taking hastening while I'm waiting mason in the ways learning late to brain it's space baby for the wind ain't that amazing what the masses can do the makers of a history a grave diggers too I'm not placing past I just studied the math If it outed up, then it'll add up now too. We said we got it good, but we don't. Setting up the scaffold and the rope.
Starting point is 02:24:13 We said we got it good but we don't. You say we're going to lose, but we won't. We don't get caught up in between with the narcissus. We don't get caught up in between with the narcissus. Thank you.

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