Rev Left Radio - Black Liberation and Bolshevism: Communists in the Civil Rights Movement

Episode Date: February 8, 2018

In 1991, Clarence Taylor received his PhD in American history and began teaching at Le Moyne College in Syracuse, New York. He reworked his dissertation into a book, The Black Churches of Brooklyn from the 19th Century to the Civil Rights Era, and it was published by Columbia University Press in 1994. In 1996, Clarence became a member of the history department and the African-New World Studies Program at Florida International University. In 1997, Clarence's second book, Knocking At Our Own Door: Milton A. Galamison and the Struggle to Integrate New York City Schools was published by Columbia University Press, and, in 2002, his book,Black Religious Intellectuals: The Fight for Equality from Jim Crow to the 21st Century, was published by Routledge. Prof. Taylor's research interests are the modern civil rights and black power movements, African-American religion, and the modern history of New York City. He is also co-editor of Civil Rights Since 1787: A Reader in the Black Struggle  which won the Gustavus Myers Prize in 2001 and editor of Civil Rights in New York City: From World War II to the Giuliani Era. Taylor's book, Reds at the Blackboard: Communism, Civil Rights and the New York City Teachers Union is also published by Columbia University Press (2011). Dr. Taylor Joins Brett and co-host Kristy to discuss Communist involvement in the Civil Rights Movements. Outro Music: Strange Fruit by Billie Holiday Reach us at: [e-mail] follow us on Twitter @RevLeftRadio Follow us on FB at "Revolutionary Left Radio" Intro Music by The String-Bo String Duo. You can listen and support their music here: https://tsbsd.bandcamp.com/track/red-black This podcast is officially affiliated with The Nebraska Left Coalition, the Nebraska IWW, and the Omaha GDC. Check out Nebraska IWW's new website here: https://www.nebraskaiww.org

Hello everyone. Welcome to Revolutionary Left Radio. Before we start, I just wanted to clear something up. We're doing something a little different today. We have my comrade and close friend Christy on. She was on our early intersectionality episode, and then she was on our refuting common arguments against the left episode. And this is a topic that she's really interested in, and she helped me formulate the outline and get the guest for this episode. She's going to co-host it with me. Christy, you want to say hi? So it's going to be a little different from our normal, just me as the host. It's going to be a back-and-forth co-host. episode but yeah besides that everything should be normal so let's go to the interview please support my daddy's show by donating a couple bucks to patreon.com forward slash rev left radio please follow us on twitter at rev left radio and don't forget to rate and review the revolutionary left radio on iTunes to increase our reach workers of the world unite Revolution Revolution

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Welcome to Revolutionary Left Radio I'm your host Ann Comrade, Brett O'Shea And my co-host, Christi Lehi We're here with Dr. Clarence Taylor To talk about the Communist Party and their involvement in the civil rights movement

Dr. Taylor, would you like to introduce yourself and say a little bit about your background? Sure. I'm born and raised in New York City. I was a New York City teacher. I taught in the public schools for a number of years I was active in the Teachers Union. And I also pursued while I was teaching in the public school, the PhD, because I had love history. As soon as I changed careers from a public school teacher to teaching at topologies and

universities, I spent a lot of time at the City University of New York, both Baruch College, one of the senior colleges of the university system and also the graduate center, where I work with state candidates. Also, an offer of a number of books that focus on the social protest movement in New York City.

So, I mean, I've retired in August, but I'm still continuing to write and lecture and speak. My latest work is focusing on how people organized in New York City to take on police

brutality. Awesome. Well, we're extremely honored to have you on the program, and I guess we have a lot of ground to cover, so let's go ahead and get into it. Chris, do you want to start? I read your book Reds at the Blackboard, Communism, Civil Rights, and the Teachers, New York City Teachers Union. It's a topic that's rarely written about, at least objectively. A lot of historians either downplay communist links to the civil rights movement or outright ignore any connection. So what made you want to address this communist role in the civil rights movement? Well, as a New York City public school teacher, as I noted, I became active in the union. I was involved in the opposition caucus to the main unity caucus at the union. The opposition caucus fought for civil rights and worked hard for

inclusion include African Americans in the hiring of African Americans and Latinos in the public school system

they court for big issues such as ending apartheid in South Africa so the issue of racial justice was dear to

this opposition caucus many of those teachers who were involved in that opposition caucus were I thought

retired teachers as they were They were overly as an advertisement in the system. I later found out that they were not. Many of them have been fired by the New York City Pups League Board of Education because of their political leaders. Many of them were members of the Communist Party. In fact, all the ones who were fired were members of the Communist Party.

And when I attempted to talk to the teachers about their past history and Steve's more fired. None of them would really talk to me because it was a really painful period in their lives. But when I said, when I got to graduate school, I said, you know, I really want to explore this issue.

And although I was not my dissertation topic, and I wrote on other topic, I eventually got to researching the history of this first

teachers union in New York City, the teachers union, which it was by 1935, communist dominions. And so, those teachers who I work with in this caucus, the opposition caucus, that really

motivated me to turn looking at the early period of teacher unionism, because the union that dominates in New York City. really had

a contentious relationship with the black and Latino communities of that's fair. And many people saw the union and its leadership really not caring about the plight

of black and Latino children. And this was not the case within the early teachers. They had a sort of broad definition of humanism. I found out as I was researching my book, a broad definition it wasn't just about

and what issue was put it was about the conditions that the children they served learned up. So it was a fascinating experience for learning and writing about that book and revealing the role of these communist teachers in this to struggle for racial equality. And by early, we're talking about the turn of the century, kind of 1920s, 30s leading up to World War II. and through 1955, is that right? Well, we,

as it was called, the Q10 to existence of 1960, but it wasn't the communist founded that union, right? The American Communist Party

wasn't, it was founded in 1919, right? Before 1960, the majority of people who were in those parties, particularly the leadership of the,

excuse me, of the union, were social democrats. And the social democrats did push to improve conditions for teachers, but they also adopted this agenda of professionalism. They wanted the teachers to be expected. They fought against other sort of repressive conditions that face, you know, such a royalty oath by the New York City Board of Education. It isn't until the 1920 that the communists started to join the New York City Teachers Union. And by the mid-1920, that form a caucus called the record file courses.

And they are much more militant than their efforts than the founders of the Teachers Union. They were much stronger. and they're anti-racism. Well, I'm much more militant in what they were demanding. They sort themselves not just part of a profession, white-collar profession, they then just emphasized professionalism among teachers. They connected themselves to the large industrial labor movement

that was going. And particularly about in 1930s, when you have the Congress, industrial organizations formed, and they were organizing, you know, industrial workers, unskilled, semi-schooled workers. Even though these teachers and their rank and child caucus were, you know, clearly professional workers, they showed themselves by themselves part of this larger labor struggle.

And they said, you know, we have to take on the issues that really impact not just white-collar workers, but also members of the American working class. And so they, you know, push more this within the teachers union, and their numbers grew especially by the Depression, because that was a group that they really focused on unemployed teachers. And by 1945, the writing was on the wall, that their numbers were growing, the social democracy, who were anti-communists, saw this and they walked out of the union, leading it in the hand of the rank and file corpus. And this is when the teachers' union really becomes eventually communist-led. So it starts in 1935, and it goes on to its end in 1964.

About history, how the Union caught and had to survive vicious attacks by those who were opposed to it, particularly the growing anti-communist network. But, you know, this is also seen the arguments of the sort of T-U, in particular the communist led T-U. And it's after 1935 that we see a definite push for more anti-racist actions to kind of make living conditions better. That's right. The teachers are really like other CIO unions that are dominated by members of the American Communist Party or have communists on their executive board, the committees. They do push for a local civil rights agenda. So within the New York City Board of Education, the T.U.

It's fighting one to eliminate racist, advised textbooks in the New York City public school system. So it's really important, I think, in terms of civil rights. that in New York City teaches in the sort of lays and groundwork for the civil rights struggle in the New York City. Absolutely. That's fascinating history. Zooming out a little bit and thinking nationally outside of just New York but the entire country, what organizing efforts and like concrete actions did the Communist Party engage in to directly address issues surrounding racism in the educational system, police brutality of black people and the broader racism that permeated U.S. society.

Well, that's a big question. The American Communist Party, the American Communist Party, clearly by the 1920s, which is suggesting the problem of racism, thanks to many of the Communist Party, especially as black members. The Communist Party, since they deal with, you know, what they call the national question.

in 1920s. And so, you know, the number of ways of dealing with this problem within the larger community

and also within the labor movement. So, and some of it makes some contradictory people with the communist body would do it. So we go in the 1920s.

It's doing what the Communist Party self-called its period, right? Yeah, looking at the 1925, 1926, so on. And this is period where the Communist Party is extremely militant. It adopts this position that, you know, blacks are not African-Americans, are not a discriminated minority, but, you know, essentially they are an oppressed national group. Yes, it was almost separate, correct? The definition at that time that they were using was that it was a separate nationalist group, right? Well, it wasn't that it was a separatist group.

What they were arguing here is that they have a right to. self-determination. Perfect. So, because we talk about separate, you know, that got some sort of negative connotations. What the Communist Party here was saying is, no, just like other oppressed national groups, that should be able to determine

their situation. They should be, they should have the right to determine their cost of life, you know, they should be able to make these decisions. And so they took the black to have their own nation. So this is a whole bunch of a nation with him a nation. Yeah, and so one figure in the movement, both the communist movement and the black liberation movement that I think is really important.

And he's actually an Omaha native, which is the city that we're calling out of right now, which is Harry Haywood. Who was Harry Haywood, and why is he an important historical figure for liberationists of all kinds today to study and learn from? Yeah, Harry Engwood is a true important future in American history, particularly American labor history, of course, the history of the American left. Haywood was one of the early members, African-American members of the Communist Party. And Hayward actually writes about this experience and is ordered by Agri and kind of Black Bulls for it. Well, he describes his experience and how he traveled to Moscow, how he met his role in the American Communist Party. And we talked about this nation within the nation's notion of the Black Belt thesis.

Well, this comes from Harry Hayward. that he is formulating this, and, of course, and other members of the Communist Party really are attracted to this notion. So theoretically, Harry Hay would play a major role in shaping the American Communist Party's policy towards African-Americans. You know, he would have some trouble

Well, you know, all along the road with the American Communist Party, but, I mean, you know, this early period is pivotal for the party and, you know, the whole, some-called Negro question. And now, this difference from the Qigavi approach, right? The Gabby is there early on. These were in the 1910 and clearly in 1920s, pushing also a black nationalist agenda. Let me know, yeah, Harry Hayward was not a black nationalist. Neither was the African Brotherhood in others who were associated with the American Communist Party. They were black nationalists. And so what made them different from someone like family was they saw the formation of a black nation as a means of bringing blacks into the communist audit.

Yeah, so that tension between black nationalists and black Marxist or black socialist was actually a tension that we saw come back into place. in the early days of the Black Panther Party, that tension between Black separatists and the sort of Marxist-inflected black liberationists, that appears over and over again throughout American history. Yes, yes.

You're right. It does crop up in the 1960s with, you'll say, the Black Panther Party and us, a black nationalist group headed by the Black Nationalist,

Mubana Paringa, who emphasizes cultural black nationalism. But yeah, these were major ideological saddles. You know, we'd go back in December 1920, see this being played out with the, between Garvey and the American Communist Party. And Gabby was viciously anti-communists. Well, Harvey made me do with the communists. Bobby also was advocating in black capitalism, different from what black Marxists were advocating. So do you think that that is one of the reasons we don't see more cooperation between these groups organizing on the ground?

Since we do have African American organizations that are Marxist in nature like the African Brotherhood, and we see the nation within a nation approach in the Communist Party. Why do we not see more cooperation? Well, because they differ ideological. So, you know,

the communists were just one important element in the black liberation struggle. Well, the people did not trust the military party. Well, the African Americans did not try. trust the communist body, especially African-American leaders.

So, yeah, they are organizing, but they're also competing for the hearts and mind of African-Americans, right? So I already mentioned Wadhi, and here's a black nationalist approach. You know, you have the national, the NAAC, the oldest civil rights organization in the United States. Well, it had a sort of different approach. You know, a more, you know, what they call, military integrationism.

But, you know, these groups Portman, then you have A. Philo Brandoff who will come later, who's a black socialist, right? But it was also distanced with the anti-communist. They did not trust the communist party. So it's a big ideological struggle going on among these different organizations and readers, you know,

which direction should African Americans take. So, I mean, this is one reason why, you don't see people necessarily working on the ground. There is one period, of course, where they do sort of come together, and that is, you know, sort of popular front period. Did you want me to find that and talk about that? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Please talk about the popular front. Yeah, well, so the popular front comes after the third tier, right? So the Soviet Union is, of course, under, clearly, under, well, they're threatened by the ruling fascism and the Nazis.

It's clear by in 1936 when Civil War erupts in Spain, and the, you know, fascist Italy and Nazi Germany has come together, and the Soviet Union has happened to determine the whole elect governments in Spain. But a class is one that actually take place. until, you know, the Muslim, so, you know, we need to build a sort of popular front against fascism and Nazism. This means that we have to sort of move away from our sort of period formulation that, you know, you know, other groups such as, you know, the Democrat Party or Socialist Party, sort of enemies, you know, the American Federation of Labor. We have to bring them into the fools of a popular front to take on fascism and nauseous.

And so, in terms of racial politics in the United States, they're open to working with other groups and, you know, the National League Group Congress formed in 1936. is, for example, the sort of popular fronts attempt to, you know, attack racial injustice. Well, with the Communist Party,

along with A. Philo of Randolph, and, you know, members of the global movement, they also come together and they put together one is a pretty remarkable agenda. It's a agenda that is a chance of racial inequality, but it's also addressing class inequality, because the two are intertwined. You know, racial questions, economic questions, you know, go hand in hand. And the Popular Front, you know, a piece of, yes, it's popular organization,

and national legal Congress, it tends to address this problem. And, you know, people are more open to working with one another in this early period, before World War II arrests. Of course, Bruce is all known out the window once World War II arrests, right? Right. So what takes place in World War II, the Communist Party decides to follow the direct to the Moscow and they kind of sort of non-aggression,

they support the non-aggression policy in Soviet Union, and Nazi Germany. You know, the argument of the Soviet Union used for signing that is that, you know, we attempted to build an alliance with the West against fascism and Nazism. The West protected us, so we don't know the church, but to, you know, form the other past. But it was devastating. Yeah.

It was devastating internationally because it was devastating in the United States. many people talk that and say, well, the Communist Party in the United States is really not serious about racial justice, but there are more concerns about is sensually saving the Soviet Union of the Moscow. Right. And so the April of Brandoff resigned from the National Legal Congress, as I haven't had anything to do with him anymore because of the cops. And other sort of walk away. So in many ways, it was sort of a lift up. Yeah, I totally agree. That was a huge misstep on the part of the Communist Party. But maybe we could talk about, since we're talking about ideological conflicts, can you talk about some of the tensions between communists and liberals throughout the Cold War, specifically with its relation to the civil rights movement? How did communists and liberals kind of clash inside the civil rights movement itself?

Well, good, yes. That's an important point. I agree that the Cold War is the most important of this. the other 20th century. It divides the world into two camps, right? The United States was, you know, taking on its enemies abroad, but the United States also was taking on its enemies at home. And this period was the greatest period of attacks on civil liberties. And, of course, I think we're really going to run just as challenging

under the President's leadership in the United States. But, you know, the Cold War sort of what one historian called the sort of anti-communist workforce, and then they go after the American Communist Party, they go after

individual American Communists, and what is many of these folks in the Civil Rights movement. So, the agenda of dealing with both race and class because of the

early folks on the left service is extremely important you've got to deal with economic inequality, we've got to deal with economic expression if you really want to liberate lot of people in the United States that is

marginal I don't know that because those folks who are advocating this approach by this anti-communist network. So, people such of W.E.B. Du Bois,

probably the greatest African scholar of the 20th century. A person who advocated for economic as well as racial justice becomes a target

of the anti-communist network. They go after Du Bois. he's one of the National Association for the Advancement of Public People, an organization that he helped create. Right, right. So, yeah, he becomes the target, but he's arrested in 1941, excuse me a foreign agent by the government. They go out to people such as Paul Robson,

the great African-American singer, actor, and activist who called for peaceful coexistence with the Soviet Union, right? He is polled before the House on Un-American Activities. His passport is taken. He was made into a non-person. You know, members of the American Communist Party made him African Americans and leadership are arrested under something called the Smith Act.

You know, Claudia Jones and African-American woman is arrested and deported. She raised the woman's question. the Congress party. So these folks who are pushing with much more progressive, militant agenda of silence. The white political establishment is violent in its attempt to silence communists and black organizations and liberators. So the combination of those two movements together really sounds like we're seeing an escalation of that violence. You ask me, are we seeing an escalation on violence

now? Are you talking about the period that I'm discussing now? The period you're discussing now, but I think you continue to see that throughout time. Black Panthers being another example of that, right? Precisely, yes. Yes, yes. And it's important that's not to see this period because people should have an understanding. Yeah, you know, it didn't just happen. There's a long history of attempting to struggle against racial injustice and, you know, racial oppression has been a key factor in hindering that progress. So, you know, black folks didn't just wake up in the 1960s and 1970s and say,

let's have civil rights movement. It's certainly for a long time against racial oppression, they have members of the left. So, yeah, so these forces that, you know, what's taking on is just such a police fatality. In the American Communist Party, members were taking on police brutality. Yes. We spoke of marginalized silence by, as you saw, clearly by those in power, right?

Right. But also civil rights organizations join in on this. The labor movement joins in on this. That's when I talk about an anti-communist network. I'm talking, you know, not just the government. that I'm not just talking about, you know, roads are like an official, but I'm talking about, you know, people in labor,

people in the civil rights movement, people in certain industry, you know, civic organizations. They all join in on this, you know, this crusade to stamp out the left. And it's an extremely effective crusade. When you, especially when you look back at old photographs of anti-civil rights protesters, you will see a complete conflation.

You have to keep in mind, this is after the 50s, this is in the wake of McCarthyism. You'll see this conflation between the civil rights movement and communism itself. So communism was used as a way to sort of discredit the civil rights movement as one in the same.

Yes, yes, we are a very effective tactic, especially during the Cold War. It's you heighten people's fears during the Cold War, which, you know, those in government and industry, they did have extremely well. So you scare people, you know. You make the fearful a tactic that we're seeing now,

for example, use against Muslims, against use against Latimo, you know, use against, you know, undocumented work is in the United States. You know, the president of the United States went on today to talk about some gang members, when he was talking about the immigration problem in the United States

because we know that all members, all immigrants are a mimic gang, right? So you play his fear up, and it's extremely effective. And some of you think, but, you know, you've got this tactic back during the Cold War, right? And so it's easy, even once you demonize folks, to have the public on your side when you go after them and deny their civil liberties

and their rights and you want to jail them viciously violently attacked them. So the NAACP which went along with this anti-communist agenda was a victim

itself of this this communist hysteria in the United States, in the south. So many southerners who want to go out to the NSAP, well, you know, they're communists. What's, you know, let's get their membership list. And so they went after the United States based on this fallacy. So I think it's mistaken in the NAACD to make that decision to become anti-communists,

but some of their stories are supposed to disagree with that, you know, is it? That's how the United States can survive. But I think it also limited its agenda. The same thing with labor, right? You know, labor unions, especially the largest the late Union in the United States, the American Federation of Labor, joined in this anti-communist network.

The Congress of Industrial Organization, they began to throw out its community with members of America, the Communist Party, began to throw them out of the CIA. The problem was that. These were the most dedicated, the most organized people within the labor movement, and over the civil rights movement, and by pushing those folks out the weekend in those movements.

So when we see that, when we see that the civil rights movement in the 50s kind of becomes more of a church-based cross-class movement that really kind of stresses legalized civil rights. why do or what was the role that the communist party continued to play was there a role that the communist party continued to play and what what did that look like that's a good question you know 1950 is an extremely difficult period for the american communist party like i said uh the leadership is jailed many people have walked away from the american communist party organizations are organizations affiliated with the American Communist Party. I haven't enough time because, you know, they don't mention the role of the economy. They lose the first, like that in the New York City teaches the United States.

It loses its right to operate in the New York City public school system in 1950, right? So it's an extremely rough time. So many talks to continue the struggle not as openly communist members, but they do it secretly. They get involved in super-unshoulding. They're still in their labor, but they can't do it openly as members of the communist power of. So, you know, in New York City in 1950s, 1950s, 1950s, the impertinence of the school integration campaign in New York,

published schools. New York's published schools are fairly segregated. It's not just in the South, which, you know, throughout the country in New York. And New York City coins, you know, the Civil Rights and New York City points this out. And the counties are the ones, the ones who are teachers who were working on the

churches who will move over and they start working in that movement to help integrate the New York City public school system you know I at least it was also on in other places so you know I can't just come out until you know we're communist but you know they just don't sort of walk away from this struggle of racial injustice All right. Well, zooming sort of out and coming to today, you see Black Lives Matter as probably the most prominent Black Liberation movement in the U.S. at the moment. How do you think about Black Lives Matter as it relates to this history of black liberation? Do you see it as an ongoing sort of continuation of those earlier struggles and sort of, I just want to kind of hear your thoughts on Black Lives Matter generally? Black lives matter for an extremely important social protest movement.

It has really made people's consciousness to racial repression, oppression, oppression, you know, sexual oppression, a question of, you know, gay, bisexual, lesbian, you know, transgender people. My life matter is an extremely important organization. And it has, I think, accomplished quite a bit over the last few years. I mean, during the 2016 election, for example, you know, as black lives would matter, you know, set of raises to conscience of the most performance. correction, personally for prison, from Bernie Sanders, right? And Bernie Sanders was good on the issue with class, but he lacked, I think, a fair

understanding on the issue of race. But it's black guys' honor that really helped educate him and move him in a more progressive direction on that. Black guys' manner, know that there you have to shake up with something. you want to shake up folks in order to get something out of the system, you know, you get to improve people's conditions or not. And they, like, we go up, the issues that have really have an impact on folks. So, yeah, it's sort of a continuation of these, this black liberation of struggle.

That's been ongoing. And I think what it goes, also, it, It points to this idea that we are not in a, quote, post-civil-right era. Right. This has to come a crime among many people that will end what they call a post-able-right era. What's going to mean by a cultural right era? Well, there are many people who are making this claim, including a former activist. uh, more, uh, conservative folks, uh, and also who are, I guess, liberal, you know,

that are wearing the sort of post-civil rights here. What they all mean by is that one of the civil rights movement is trial. It's due way with legal discrimination. And we've got to 1964, Civil Rights Act, we got the 1965 voting rights. So the civil rights movement was, uh, up, times. Well, black people are suffering today, black, the most people are starting

different. We're making different problems today. So when we look at inequality, the more conservative folks would take the argument as well less because of a deficit in black culture. Right.

Black folks need to get there out to get together and improve their own. But by the way, some conservatives make that argument. You know, liberals make that. Some liberals make it all the time, right. Right. So, you know, as much as I like President Barack Obama, he was a component of this sort of black,

the cultural deficit argument, you know. And was, of course, criticized for it by other black common figures such as Cornell West. Yep. So, you know, that becomes sort of a prominent argument. And this is absolutely, I reject that argument that we're in sort of post to the right zero. You know, others also hold on to say, well, yeah, you know, we need to have some changes made by the government, but we also need to have some cultural changes among African-Americans, you know.

Here's the problem I think the problems that we face early on are still with us today. Absolutely. Yeah, racial, structural inequality is still with us. Two, as I mentioned, the struggle for

both race and economic equality, you know, in both racial and economic oppression, but that's no civil rights issue, right? Right. And we're facing that today also. And so group like blackwires, we're going to be raised this, right?

So we are speaking about the, you know, bringing, you sort of speaking truth to power. Right. So, yeah, so I think it's a false foot to, you know, that we're, you know, in this sort of racial, the, this population period, school segregation has tremendously in the United States. A problem that we were fighting back in 1990s, 1950s, 1960s, 1960s, still here today. Correct. So, no, I don't think we're in a post-racial period, which is still there with these civil rights issues.

And we have new organizations, civil rights organizations, sort of stopping up to the plate and taking on the struggle very creatively, let me know here. Very creatively. The black lives now that differs somewhat from they learn from the class, right? They adopt some of the tactics from the past, but they also differ

from the tax. They are much more inclusive in terms of leadership, you know, because you know, when we go back, the old civil rights movement in terms of leadership was male-dominated leadership. Well, that's not you with black guys.

gay, lesbians, transgender people felt uncomfortable in the old civilized movement. Well, there's fucking center in black violence value. So, you know, black rights not as well as well as far as the hits over, like I said, that's gotten a much more

inclusive approaching and clearly an agenda. Well, as we kind of wrap up the interview, I just wondered what it is that you kind of hope people take away from the research that you've done. What can communists and black liberationists today learn from the successes and failures of the past, in your opinion? Well, I want people to take away from what I do and with other folks. in my field

do and you're looking to examine the past extremely important we should not ignore the past

and our couple of you know people in the United States or elsewhere have not reached you

know or they don't think the past matters well yeah well the past does matter you know and I mean the history does matter I want folks to understand that, you know, this struggle is ongoing.

And just because you win a battle, does that mean you win the war? As we have seen, you may win rights, right? You may win voting rights. But those in opposition the right way are going to find ways to take them away from you. They do not go to sleep, right? Right. And, you know, whether they stop the courts, right?

They change the legislature to state legislatures, which they had been doing, and then they then turn around and go to the most oppressive laws in existence to sort of take away from people, you know, go after women's rights. they're busy and so you know they sort of catch people off the car the more progressive folks

about wait until we have those rights back in 1960 in 1970s that we struggled for those rights and get them yeah but you know you've got to continue we've got to constantly continue to do this

you can't give up their struggle so I think that's the most important lesson that we can be out of this. I think also another important lesson is we have to listen

to those who came early, you know, on in the struggle. We just can't just ignore some of the things that they're doing, right? I'm afraid that some people sort of do listen to highly critical of those folks in the past.

You know, the past is important And, you know, to take back in the example. You have to follow the same approaches that they laid out, but we shouldn't, you know, build on those approaches. So, you know, I think they have to be connected with, you know, both of asking those who are continuing that struggle to get it. Absolutely. Well, Dr. Taylor, thank you so much for coming on.

It's been an honor and a pleasure to talk to you and learn from you. Before we let you go, though, could you maybe offer some recommendations to anyone who wants to learn more about the history that we've discussed today and then also point listeners to where they can find your work?

Yeah. I think we do have to pay attention to more of left voices, you know, seek out their voices, you know, radio stations like yours, like, And here, you know, the city of the WBAI radio and others on the left, you know, more progressive voices. You know, we have to read what being put out by leftists.

I think also people should get involved in growing movements in the United States. I think we mentioned Black Lives Matter, you know, the fight for 15 in the United States and extremely in the important movement, you know, the involvement of the sort of environmental crusades. These movements on the ground are the really important movement that are going to make the change. You know, if you're waiting for a Democratic Party and the leadership, they're going nowhere. Right. Right. It's those groups that actually push

Democrats and others can make the change. We're going to watch the soccer go down and then the Democrats are not really going to have an answer to that one. And I can't. To say that, I must have to start organizing on the ground and putting pressure on them to take action. I'm going to hold their feet to the fire.

Absolutely. All right, well, thank you very much. We really appreciate you coming on the show. It's been an honor. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much. In the southern breeze, strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees. Pastoral scene of the gallant south, the bulging eyes and the twisted mouth, set of magnolia, sweet and fresh.

Then the sudden smell of burning flesh. Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck, for the rain together. For the winter's set For the scent For the scent to rat For the tree To drop He is a strange

and bitter cry.