Rev Left Radio - Farce, Finance & Fascism: Margaret Kimberley on Empire in Decay

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

In this powerful and wide-ranging conversation, Margaret Kimberley—senior columnist at Black Agenda Report and a leader in Black Alliance for Peace—joins Breht to dissect the spectacle of American decline and, as usual, Kimberley offers a razor-sharp analysis of late-stage capitalism’s collapse into cruelty, chaos, and confusion. Together, they explore the Democratic Party’s complicity in ushering in this moment, U.S. weapons transfers to Ukraine in support of their proxy war against Russia, and the genocidal assault on Gaza as a revealing - if disturbing - lens into the true nature of the American empire. Kimberley also shares firsthand insights from delegations to Nicaragua, Venezuela, and China, illuminating how the Global South is resisting U.S. domination and reshaping global power. For those feeling the weight of worsening economic conditions, rising fascism, and political demobilization, Kimberley offers hard-won wisdom about organizing in the belly of the beast. We close with discussion about where real hope can still be found. Check out Black Agenda Report Black Agenda Radio -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Follow, Subscribe, & Learn more about Rev Left Radio HERE Outro Beat Prod. by flip da hood

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. Today I have on the one and only Margaret Kimberly from Black Agenda Report, Black Alliance for Peace and other organizations, and she's been a longtime voice on the radical revolutionary anti-imperialist, Black Liberation Left, and I've wanted to have her on for so long and I'm finally happy that We were able to make that happen. And we were able to make it happen through our friend and comrade Nick Thompson from the Black Alliance for Peace. Nick's been on the show several times, I believe at this point. Just an amazing organizer, a great human being, and he really went above and beyond to try to make these connections happen so that I could get Margaret on the show.

And I'm very happy he did. In today's episode, me and Margaret, we walk through the current political moment, domestically, internationally. we survey the economic situation here in the United States and globally, the Trump tariffs, the oligarchy that is rising up, the false promises made by the faux populist right here in the U.S., and we also zoom out and look at the Ukraine situation as a proxy war, the Palestinian liberation fight that's ongoing, the possibilities of war with Iran and China,

and just basically do an over-the-entire-globe analysis of the current state of capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, and fascism, and point the way towards how we can resist it. So really, this is Margaret and I doing a collaborative analysis of the current situation, and we hope people find it useful and helpful. Now, I do want to remind people that on the Rev Left main feed, because of the whole Spotify situation, you can go listen to that episode.

We released a couple days ago talking about Spotify erasing our episodes. we are having to put up a clean back catalog of copyright free episodes for the next month and a half. So those episodes are coming out, a Best of series with no copyrighted music at the end to create a nice clean back catalog. So while that's happening, we're going to release episodes like this on our Patreon for free. So you just have to become a member, but you don't have to pay a single penny to get this episode. And we'll release this on the Red Menace feed. So in the meantime, if you're not already, subscribe to Red Menace on your preferred podcast app and we will put out any public episodes that we do, either me by myself or me and Allison

together. While the Rev Left main feed is putting out the best of series, we'll put episodes like this out on the Red Menace feed and for free on the Patreon feed, as well as, of course, bonus, Patreon exclusive episodes as we do every single month. And I think we have over 300 Patreon bonus episodes. So if you want to support the show directly, of course, you can do it that way, join Patreon and do that. Or just join. for free as a member and get public episodes like this while the best of series plays out. And then once that best of series is done, we'll put this episode and in any other episodes that we record in the meantime up on the Rev. Left Main Feet, of course.

So it will make its way there eventually. But in the meantime, we have to sort of work around the issue at hand. So without further ado, here's my wonderful conversation with a really important and principled voice, Margaret Kimberly. I hope everybody enjoys. I'm Margaret Kimberley. I'm a co-founder and executive editor of Black Agenda Report.com. I'm also in leadership positions in the organizations, the Black Alliance for Peace, and the United National Anti-War Coalition. Wonderful. And it's a genuine honor to have you on the show today. I've followed your socials and just, your work in general for many, many years. I can't believe it's taking this long for me to reach out

and invite you on, but I'm happy to have you here today. And I really, really value your insight and your years of experience, wisdom, on the broadly conceived left, on the black liberation left, on the anti-imperial left, anti-capitalist left. So today I'm just excited to get your sort of analysis of many dimensions of the ongoing sort of multifaceted crisis that we find ourselves in. Let's start, perhaps, with just the overall spectacle of American decline, from Trump's resurgence to Elon Musk's reactionary influence to the recent tariff debacle. How do you understand this convergence of farce, finance, and fascism as a symptom of late-stage capitalist decay? Well, it's also the decay of the U.S. empire. You know, every empire in history, every single one rises, peaks and falls.

and the U.S. is past its peak and is in decline. So we have a late-stage capitalist decline. We have an empire's decline. We have a country that has always, from its inception, been committed to being predatory, a country founded as a settler colonial state, the destruction of, near destruction of indigenous populations, enslavement, and so on. And that is, and the U.S. being the world's primary capitalist power for many decades.

So when you put all of those things together, you have a country that is backward, politically. people are deliberately kept uninformed and misinformed. Mark Twain said if you don't read the paper, you're uninformed, but if you do, you're misinformed, and that's still true. If you read the New York Times, you don't know what's going on in the world. You know what certain people in the elites want you to know, which generally does not bear any resemblance to anything that is important. We have phony elections.

have a duopoly, the Democrats and Republicans. Each one is controlled by a group of oligarchs. That's not a word that we should just apply to some other faraway country. So, and they deliberately do not give the people what they want. They use different language and talk about different topics, but the helping the people of the country, making, sure we have a decent quality of life is not on their agenda at all. So I think that sums up where we are right now. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there's always been an obvious strain of fascism, as you were pointing out, since the very foundations of this country. So fascism is not by any means a new feature. But I do think that there is something substantially different

between Trump's first term and his second term. His first term, there's a lot of belligerent rhetoric, but once in office, he more or less governed like a normal Republican politician, which is already incredibly far right and fascist in so many ways. But the second term, there seems to be like any guardrails there were the first time are taken off. This has been like sort of oligarchy unleashed, now talking about war with Iran. He ran on these ideas of free speech, immediately cracks down on anti-Israel speech, ran on this idea that he's for peace, immediately starts and escalates various conflicts around the world. I know you've been following probably Trump for a long time just in popular culture, but also over this first and second term. Do you see

any substantial differences here or am I off base? No, I think you are on point. This is just April. He hasn't even been president three months. And we see, let's see how many crises do we see. We see the United States claiming a right to take people from the United States. states who are citizens of Venezuela, but snatching them up, kidnapping them and taking them to El Salvador, which has no jurisdiction over them, the U.S., even if the people in question are in the country illegally and are deportable, they would be deported to their home country, to Venezuela. But we have not only the Trump administration doing that, fighting a federal judge who made it clear they were not to be taken out of the country, a direct opposition to the

federal judiciary claims that the federal judiciary has no authority over the executive office. We have a president ruling by dubious, legally dubious executive orders. There hasn't been a lot of legislation despite the fact that he has control of both the Republicans are in the majority of both houses of Congress. We have Elon Musk and this Department of Government efficiency, just wholesale firing people without regard to the consequences, people who believe, frankly, that there shouldn't be any government. So we have right-wing policies in ascendance, and we have a liberal order that capitulates and gives them more power. So yes, I do see a difference. Yeah, and I want to move on to the Democrats and how they pave the road to this.

But first, I just want to make a quick point and see if you have any thoughts on it. This whole idea with the tariff debacle, it's just sort of a sideshow to the more, you know, nefarious strains of fascism, cracking down on, you know, any person in here, even legally, that are here legally, that has pro-Palestine views that have they made public are now under direct attack. But the thing with the tariff is this whole idea that he's going to bring back manufacturing jobs. Now, many aspects of the oligarchy here are saying, yeah, we might bring them back, but they're going to be automated. But even setting that aside, what made manufacturing jobs was not that they were manufacturing jobs, but that they were highly unionized. And with the rise of neoliberal globalization and the dismantling of industry, there also came dismantling of organized

labor more broadly. And that's a process that's been going on since the Red Scare at least a century ago. So that's sort of this farcical idea that even if the tariffs would work to bring back manufacturing, which there's no industrial policy, there's no investment to do that, but the idea that manufacturing alone would create good quality of life for working people as opposed to the unions that actually made those manufacturing jobs produce a decent life or at least some strata of Americans. And throughout American history, that's mostly been a sort of more white strata. of the working class. I mean, you know, black and brown people were often, you know, excluded from unions, but still when unions were big and when they were opened up, that they, they serve that role. So what do you make of the whole tariff thing in the manufacturing job, the unions, etc.? Well, you're absolutely right. People are talk about this and miss the point of what made those jobs, living wage jobs. I don't like the word middle class, but I guess for

lack of a better term that gave working people some degree of prosperity entire regions of the country you know it's called the rust belt when i i live in new york but my family's originally from ohio and you see these um industries that just don't exist anymore um a huge swathes of the country were deindustrialized and uh there's no plan to re industrialize i mean it was take, it would take, I'm sure, trillions of dollars to bring those industries back, to bring those jobs back. I think that's a worthy goal. But as you said, if the jobs aren't unionized, then we would, I'm sure, I mean, is the capitalist class going to say we're going to bring back good paying jobs? Are they going to be safe? Are they going to be, are they going to

have humans or are they going to have robots? So those are all very good questions. But, you know, we're seeing this an attack on China. And I think we have to remember that Trump started off last, what a roller coaster for the past week. Every country on Earth, every single one had tariffs to some degree of tariffs imposed on their products. Then the markets are jittery. The people who really tell presidents what to do, like Jamie Diamond of Chase Bank, made public comments and the next thing you knew, well, I'm pausing tariffs except for China. China is the target in the first place, this country where when neoliberalism said, we don't need to manufacture anything here. We can send it all to China. China took the ball and ran with it, and

is now has an economy that is equal to. Some say has surpassed the United States. The United States being this country that I described initially can't stand the thought of having a rival and frankly having a rival that is run by people who are not white. So the goal of these tariffs all along was to try to target China. But they can't. They can't undo China. economic prowess. They could, you know, rattle their sabres. They could start a war. They can try to disrupt China's relations with other countries.

But tariffs are going to fail. If they think that China is going to be diminished, they are absolutely wrong. And tariffs are taxed. So all this claim to help working people and give them jobs is it amounts to you know, another way for them to be ripped off. We pay the price. If you buy even a U.S. made car, their parts made in China.

So clothes, everything, appliances, everything that we purchase to survive is going to cost more if this goes through. So you're going to cause suffering to people here. You're not going to hurt China very much. So this is the last gasp of, you know, you said a farce and fascism. You know, it is somewhat farcical. And then, of course, we have people who make money. So people, you know, Trump and other wealthy people, they know when to buy, stocks, they know when to sell. So this jerking people back and forth doesn't hurt them.

They make sure they profit from it. So this is a con on the people of this, the working people of this country. There's nothing about these tariffs that are going to help us. Yeah, absolutely well said. And yeah, your point about it being a tax, it's not only a tax, it's a regressive tax because it hurts poor and working people the most. And Trump's even floated the idea that he would replace the income tax with tariffs, which would just be absolutely brutal to what's left of the very precarious. working class in this country.

And another thing I always like to point out to the audience listening, I know you know this, and many of our listeners do as well, but it never hurts to repeat that it's always fascinating to me that when the stock market booms, none of those benefits trickle down to working people. I've been through many stock market booms where my life is just as hard as it's ever been. But when it crashes, the rich also benefit because they can weather the storm, they can buy up assets on the cheap, every financial collapse sort of, creates more monopolies and cornering the market as bigger companies gobble up smaller ones. And then it's the workers that get laid off.

So it's like no matter what happens, the rich always win and the working and the poor always lose. And we'll get back to China. But what makes them so responsible and strategic on the global stage is the capacity for them to plan long term. They've subordinated capital to the state. and the state decides five, 10, 15 year plans on what's best for them. And this is going according to their plan where they've integrated their economy

into the global economy such that America tries to tariff them and America shoots itself in its own foot. And in the meantime, they're building up the military power on the back end to defend themselves when the empire inevitably, I think, comes for them in one way or the other. But we'll get back to China. And I know you've been to China. and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But first, I want to shift over to the Democratic Party. You've obviously been a trenchant critic of both corporate parties. And I really want to emphasize

the Democratic Party's role in leading us directly to this spot. So what is the Democratic party's role in this overall crisis, their copability in the rise of Trump and oligarchy? And how did their policies over the last several decades lead us to this point? Well, if the Democrats lived up to even half of their reputation as the party that's best for working people. If they lived up to even some of that, Trump would never have been president in the first place. The decades of neoliberalism have, as we've discussed, caused a lot of suffering among the people of this country. Trump talks a good game. So in 2016, when he defeated Hillary Clinton in his electoral college victory, he got a lot of votes because he said he was going to bring these jobs back. Now, that's something I can't be

angry at people because they vote for that. But that isn't going to happen. And of course, in typical American fashion, he also made very direct appeals to racism and to racist, mostly white people. So, but, but that would have, it would not have fallen flat, but absent the arrogance of the Democrats who seem to think they can live on this reputation from the New Deal, from Lyndon Johnson's great society programs. But that's decades ago. I mean, when, when Biden first became president. I don't know if you remember that their lie, but anyway, their pitch to the voters was that he was going to be the most progressive president since FDR. Now, first of all, you're going back 80 years to talk about a president that you would want to be comparable to in the minds of

most voters. Why do you have to go back 80 years? And I thought it was interesting. They skipped over LBJ who at the time, the Democratic Party as a result of protest created Medicare and Medicaid and all these programs that people depend upon now. But this is a party that also is run by an oligarchy that is also under control of very wealthy people and corporations. So it's so insidious. They know what people want. And what was the other thing they said that he was going to cut child poverty in half? Of course, that would mean raising the minimum wage.

And every time they claimed they were going to do something, then there was an excuse. The real excuse was the oligarch said no. They allowed temporarily during the COVID pandemic. They allowed some social programs. There were some small stimulus checks. Actually, not small to everybody for some people. That helped them survive. Many states said people couldn't be evicted during that time.

They expanded Medicaid eligibility, expanded SNAP, nutrition benefit eligibility for a couple of years. and then they said nope no more and they disappeared and i believe that's one of the biggest reasons that trump won again i think if people and yes i know that biden had his problems and he was to me obviously in a state of decline in his health uh but i think if people still had their child tax credit uh they would have said uh joe looks a little senile but i'm still going to vote from he wouldn't have even had to drop out so that and that whole problem process is a result of this neo-liberal party that talks a good game of helping working people, but it never does.

What is the one thing they talk about? They talk about Obamacare. That's it. That's like 15 years ago now. So, and I have to say this to, you know, Trump is, as I pointed out, ruling through executive orders. When Biden was president, there was always an excuse about what he could not do. Build back better, this big legislative bill that was supposed to do so much, it didn't happen. They said, well, we can't raise the minimum wage because the Senate parliamentarian says we can't.

Although Kamala Harris's vice president could have overruled the Senate parliamentarian. And Trump is doing anything he wants to do. making clear that the Democrats just were being dishonest. So that is the problem that Americans are in. We have this two parties that do differ somewhat, but they are both in sync in saying that they want people, it is actually their goal to have people in this country living under precarity, to various forms of austerity, to keep wages low, to make sure that the

capitalists make more money, that is their goal. And that means that any talk of being progressive is just that. It's going to be talk. Yeah, perfectly said in that point about, you know, when the Democrats are in power, it's excuses, it's the parliamentarian, oh, we don't have a supermajority, oh, they filibuster, oh, the Supreme Court shot us down. like everything is just like always hits an inevitable obstacle and it's very clear that they're not actually trying to solve these problems they just want to appear as if they're trying

but they know that they're that they're going to be stopped and if no external force stops them a couple members within the democratic coalition themselves will rise up like kirsten cinema or joe mansion and stop it themselves um but then we yeah trump gets in and he can just do what he want matter of fact it's almost like we have a king the whims of one guy that just wants to do across the board tariffs in complete contrast to any reasonable economic outlook, and he can just do it. And there's nobody that stops. He can just do deportations. He can ignore judges. And it just shows what the Democrats, if they wanted to, could do on behalf of working people. But the obvious thing is it's not that they're helpless. They don't want to do it. And

even Obamacare, which certainly, you know, helped some people, I mean, it still did not advance single-payer health care, and it was more or less a replica of what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts, which, you know, is no huge progressive win. Again, it did extend certain programs, and obviously I'd rather have it than not, and it stopped the insurance companies from denying people for pre-existing conditions, which was obviously horrifically and obviously evil. But in so many ways, it just guaranteed profits for the insurance companies, and that's why he was allowed to do that. And so, you know, if the Democrats ever want, and I don't think they ever, do and I don't think this will happen and their brand is so terrible anyway. But even if they

really wanted to be a working class party, step one, completely dismantle your donor and your donor base and your consultant class. Stop taking corporate money and start taking only small dollar donations like Bernie did in that one campaign as the way your whole party operates. And then there's many other changes you'd have to do. You'd have to get rid of your entire leadership because all of them are corrupt insider traders and servants of the capitalist class. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. But I am very curious on your thoughts on this whole Bernie and AOC fight the oligarchy thing. You said that the Democratic Party is one of the two arms of the oligarchy, and it obviously is.

And it's sort of amusing that there's this movement of more or less Democrats. Bernie's technically an independent, but often just, you know, he endorsed Hillary. He endorsed Joe Biden. He endorses more or less the Biden administration's policies towards Palestine. and AOC is, you know, firmly within the Democratic Party in every sense of the term. So but, but they are having, you know, tens of thousands of people, even in my city, Omaha, you know, people show up in huge numbers because there's an obvious grassroots thirst for something like this, but I'm just nervous about the people leading it and where they're ultimately going to go. What are your thoughts on the fight the oligarchy tour? Well, the term sheepdog comes to mind. My late black agenda report colleague Bruce Dixon is credit.

with that moniker in his description of Bernie Sanders, he said, and correctly, that Bernie Sanders would not get the nomination, but he would heard leftish Democrats back into the Democratic Party, and that is exactly what happened. And, well, and they attempted to do that. I think one of the reasons that Trump won is because of the lack of enthusiasm for Hillary Clinton. There were some people who just weren't going to be herded. and he was able to win that very close election. But they're doing it again.

They're trying to sheepdog Democrats to support this party that has completely discredited itself. And you're right, there are huge crowds. There are people who are desperate, who want to be hopeful. But I think also this defeat. oligarchy or beat the oligarchy or whatever the terms they they use. I think it's a campaign run for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a congresswoman known as AOC. I think it's like a practice, an audition for her. But Bernie plays this role and of talking left when Democrats are out of office. And then when Democrats are back in, he's silent.

they, you know, he sponsored a bill to raise the minimum wage. And did he do that when Biden was president? No. He was the guy who gave Biden cover. AOC played the same role. You know, what was it? She said he's exceeded expectations. I mean, that was absolutely a lie. So I don't see any value in it, frankly. And, you know, it's mostly the crowd seemed to be all white. I don't see any. I don't see any value in it. people who are not white in these crowds. So these are liberalish Democrats. And I don't hate them. It's not the worst thing you could be in life. But, you know, they're people who are quite rightly skeptical about it. And this desire to have someone stand up to Trump is driving the popularity of something that doesn't mean anything. And I've had, you know, sort of semi-arguments with people about the value of people are now impressed with anything like Cory Booker, Senator Cory Booker talking for 25 hours. Well, so what? It wasn't even really a filibuster, a true filibuster. You take up time in the Senate to bring attention to something that you

want to defeat. And I just, I think it's worse for people to be impressed with trivialities. And I think, frankly, that's all it amounts to this, you know, oligarchy tour. And also, you know, the Republicans aren't the only ones who have an oligarchy. As I've said, both parties are represented by very wealthy people who tell them what they will and will not do. So I understand the desire for some sort of opposition to Trump, but that's not it. Couldn't agree more. And I totally agree with your AOC audition point as well. What's going to happen in 2028 is either AOC runs outright, you know, off this sort of energy pretending to be somebody different, just like kind of Obama did, pretended to be real change and then ushers in, you know, various versions of the same old same.

Or what's going to happen is Gavin Newsom or Amy Klobuchar, whoever's up next within the Democratic bullpen is going to run. And AOC and Bernie are going to fall behind him and direct all that energy that they're, that they're, energizing right now. They're going to direct it completely back into the system and probably back into an endorsement of one of these neoliberal freaks that the Democratic Party is going to puke up in 2028. And my big fear is that Trump's going to be so terrible. He's going to be so shitty on every front and make people's lives so miserable that all the Democrats are going to have to do is, you know, waddle back up to the podium and say, at least we aren't him. And that's going to be enough to get enough votes to win and then they're going to take that as a as a mandate to move to the center

or move further to the right or whatever they're already preexisting bias is and and that's that's my big fear the only thing that's going to break us out of this doom loop is organized proletarian multiracial mass movements from the bottom up putting pressure on this entire system and I think that's our task especially in these next four years as this system continues to rot and decay do you have anything to say to that before we move well I was just going to uh you know say that I agree with you. And I just wanted to add to the last thing you said, that has to be mobilizing outside of electoral politics. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Crucial. So let's shifting a little bit to the global stage. In May of last year, I believe, you briefed the UN Security Council about

U.S. weapons transfers to Ukraine. Can you kind of expand on that whole situation and your message there and how this military funding fits into the larger strategy of U.S. imperialism? Yes, I was very honored. last year to be invited to brief the United Nations Security Council last May as a civil society representative. And the subject of the meeting was weapons supplies to Ukraine as a threat to peace and security. And I stand by that. This was a war of choice. This was a war that the Biden admitted this ongoing war in Ukraine, proxy war using Ukraine as a process. against Russia, billions of dollars have been spent on military, the military budget, and actually not just the military budget.

I don't, I think that most people know Ukraine is like the 51st state. Every government operation is paid for by the U.S., everything, the schools, the hospitals, and they have free health care, which we don't have. How about that? but the U.S. completely supports Ukraine as an entity. And there have been thousands of deaths. The Ukrainian government is literally dragging men off the street, enforcing them enforced conscription,

sending them off to be trained for a few weeks, and then sending them out to be killed by Russia's superior artillery. The corporate media is finally, the New York Times had this, very long article. You know, big surprise. The Biden administration was controlling Ukraine's military. Well, yes. And people who didn't depend on the New York Times for information already knew this. And so I was honored to speak to the Security Council on this issue. You know, we need peace in the world just to be blunt about it instead of this war that did not have to happen basically Russia has for decades since the fall of the Soviet Union the Western nations have

been encroaching getting eastern the former Eastern bloc countries into NATO wanting to get Ukraine into NATO and Russia has been saying they wanted a security agreement that Ukraine stays neutral, something that was codified that the U.S. and other Western nations would sign. They have reneged on every opportunity to be peaceful. There were the Minsk agreements in 2015. The U.S. ignored it. People like Angela Merkel, former German chancellor, admitted it was used to just buy time for Ukraine. They had no intention of living up to this agreement.

for example, that called for giving autonomy to some regions of Ukraine as a divided nation, those regions that had a Russian-speaking population and did not see Russia as their enemy. So there have been opportunities for peace when it first started. And I also have to mention in 2014, the United States helped and its allies overthrow the elected president of Ukraine. and put in this right-wing government. There were peace talks in 2022, which was instigated. The Ukrainians were attacking the Donbos region, one of those Russian-speaking regions, daring Russia to come in and help them.

Putin decided to go in. You can question that decision, but I don't believe you can talk about it without and ignore the provocations from the U.S. and its allies. But so when I spoke to the United Nations, I repeated most of what I just said and added, there has to be an honest effort to end this. The Trump administration looked like it might do that, but as you pointed out, he lied about wanting peace. He wants a pause.

They want to pause this so he can target China. Everything, you know, it's so funny to me that people still believe Trump is Putin's stooge and he wants to help Russia. He wanted to normalize relations with Russia so the U.S. could attack China and try to pull apart China and Russia's alliance. But this is a very dangerous moment for the entire U.S. world. The Biden administration believed they could sanction Russia and bring down Putin's government or, you know, all kinds of crazy things. The Biden administration blew up the Nord Stream pipeline, this gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. And it has to end. And but Trump was, you know, he said, and trip very Trumpy in fashion, I can end this in a day. You know, of course,

You can't end it in a day. But what they are trying to do is have a pause, not to really end it. And the Russians have so far made clear they are winning and they are going to keep fighting. And it's a terrible, terrible tragedy that's also endangering the world. So those were my points. And also just saying that Americans are. shut out. You know, most Americans don't want all their money to go

to Ukraine. But which party represents us? If you want peace in the world, who do you? You can't vote for Democrats or Republicans. I'm a member of the Green Party, but of course, here in New York State, they took

the Green Party ballot line. We can't even vote in a local election, vote for the people we want. So this lack of a peaceful solution to something that could have been resolved is because the U.S. is not an honest broker. And so we have more death. We have more destruction. And we have a situation that is very

dangerous for the whole world. Yeah. Well said. And I'm really, you know, that's really cool that you got to go to the U.S. Security Council. I mean, cool. It's historic. It's wonderful that you got to go and make that argument on behalf of American civil society. Because, yeah, I mean, most Americans I talk to, regardless of their other political beliefs, are just, you know, they see that life is crumbling here at home and life is harder and harder for poor and working people, while billions and trillions really get spent in faraway wars. And you mentioned propping up the Ukrainian civil society. Like, yeah, infusing their economy, propping up their economy, funding small businesses in Ukraine so that the war effort can continue. And I think your

overall analysis is just the objectively correct analysis. And there's lots of mystification and obscurantism around this issue on the Democratic Center and on the reactionary right. But that's the truth of the matter. This has been a longstanding ramp up and American Western obstinence and NATO expansion is the crucial thing here that started it. The Medan coup that the U.S. was behind and supported made this all but inevitable. And then just the raw hypocrisy of, you know, if the U.S. had, you know, a geopolitical rival, like, let's say China, trying to expand its sphere of influence into Mexico or Canada,

it would just be unthinkable. And the U.S. would nuke the world before they allowed that to happen. And yet Russia has made it incredibly clear over and over and over again. Like, this is our red line. Like, don't do this. You don't need to do this. We're not trying to go to war with you. We're trying to integrate our economies.

And the 90s, Putin even asked to join NATO to Clinton, I believe. And just every step of the way, there's been, Western escalation. And that's not to say that I love the Russian government or I support the Putin government. I mean, Ukraine, Russia and the United States, none of them are democracies. They are all oligarchic kleptocracies ran by really, really corrupt ruling classes to be sure. But just geopolitically, Russia had every right to tell America to fuck off. And America refused. And even that peace deal in 2022 that you mentioned, Boris Johnson from the UK after those peace deals, he came out and just said the quiet part out loud.

when he said that basically it was the U.S. and the U.K. that squashed the peace deal, that Russia was interested in the peace deal. Elements of Ukraine could have been persuaded, but that it was the U.S. and the U.K. that said, no, we want this war. And of course, war is profitable. You know, it's profitable to monopoly capital. It's profitable to the military industrial complex. And so it's never going to stop. It's just, as you said, not a matter of wanting to end a war out of an anti-war sentiment, but just a matter of like, if we're going to take on China, we can't be spread so thin and we need to, you know, take these armaments and this money and gear it towards a different war, not no war. So that's a crucial aspect to this as well. But I really

appreciate not only your analysis, but the fact that you got to go and speak in front of the world and make that case. Let's go ahead and continue kind of talking about empire because the genocide in Gaza has laid bare the brutality of U.S. empire for millions. around the world, including huge swaths of people here at home. I think for the first time, polls are showing that now a majority of Americans have unfavorable views of Israel. The U.S. continues to fund arm and shield Israel as it carries out a genocide against the Palestinian people. How do you view the role of Palestinian resistance, not just in terms of national liberation, but really as a frontline struggle against a global imperialism? And what does it all say about the U.S.-Israel

alliance and the structure and priorities of empire. Well, you know, Israel is a creation of empire. Starting a hundred years ago, you know, people need to know the Zionist project began in 1800s. You know, people saying this all started October 7, 2023, no, started 1890s. And Britain, then a leading imperial power, Lord Rothschild. child promising the Balfour Declaration, promising that the creation of a Jewish state was going to be a priority. And of course it was. And little by little, decade after decade, after the

Ottoman Empire was destroyed, Western interests made sure that this state was created after World War II. And as I said, started the 1890s. It's not because of the genoceney. against the Jews that occurred during World War II. So that's always been the role of this nation. But the Palestinian people, their resistance is, first of all, it's in the international law and the U.N. Charter that peoples have the right to autonomy, have the right to self-determination and have the right to defense. So it's important for us to remember that about the Palestinian people.

And we can't be hoodwinked by, you know, the latest bogeyman word is Hamas, which is the group that was elected by the people of Gaza to lead them. Israel very cynically promoted Hamas in order to defeat the Palestine, the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization, now saying Hamas is akin to, you know, saying, you know, Satan or something. but it's just a political party and people have a right to self-defense. But Israel, being armed by the U.S., continually over the years, has this overwhelming military power. We have thousands of people dead. People need to stop saying it's 50,000 dead in Gaza.

Almost a year ago, the Lancet, the British Medical Journal, estimated that there were 186,000. dead. That's almost a year ago. We know at least 200,000 people have been killed. The U.S. and Israel, it's always been a war of ethnic cleansing, what are starving people, depriving them of water, electricity, food, bombing hospitals, trying to force Jordan and Egypt to take the people of Gaza. And whenever anyone says that, the first words out of my mouth are, why do they have have to leave their homes? What kind of solution is that? They're, they're in Gaza because these are the people who are, they're descended from the people who were forced out of what became Israel in

1948. And, and I want to say quickly, Jordan and Egypt are U.S. client states, and they have said so far that they will not take people from Gaza. Why? Because, first of all, it's wrong. They should have a right to stay where they are. And secondly, as client states, the last thing they want is our reminders to their people that they work with the U.S. and with Israel. There are lots of Arab states. They talk a good game. Some are open. Some are more covert about working with Israel. But that's not what their people want. And if suddenly you have a million Gaza Palestinians showing up, radicalizing their population, so they have so far said, no, we're not going to do it. And there would have, there was a brief pause, a brief ceasefire, but now Israel's back on

its killing spree, which it could not do without the U.S. And so we have this, and I want to talk about the power of the Zionist lobby that Trump, one of his biggest funders was Miriam Edelson. They are targeting people to lose their jobs, to be disdain. detained to be deported. He appointed an anti-Semitism chief or something. Apparently there's no other form of bigotry in the world, but now anti-Semitism is defined as being critical of Israel at all in any way, however small. So we have Trump shaking down major universities for money. You have to promise you won't be anti-Semitic. That is to say, allow any protest against Israel, and they are going along, which is a huge problem.

So we see Israel as now this idea of a greater Israel, Israel attacking Lebanon, undermining Syria, finally causing the fall of Assad's government there last in December. So now Turkey and Israel are officially carving up Syria, and the people in charge now are jihadists, the kind of people al-Qaeda that we're told to be afraid of, but then they turn the corner and say, actually, no, these are the quote-unquote good guys in Syria who are attacking their rivals, attacking Christian populations. So all of this is, Israel is at the heart. Of all of this, Israel gets more aid from the U.S. than any other country. So Israel is central to U.S. goals for empire.

And anti-Zionism, I believe, is vital in order to have peace in the world. Now Israel is once again trying to instigate the U.S. to have a war with Iran. This has been their goal for a long time. Netanyahu was just in Washington a few days ago and said, well, if Iran gives up its weapons like Libya, did. I mean, what kind of example is that? Right. That, of course, his words

were purposeful, that the U.S. can destroy Iran like it did Libya. So, you know, if you're an anti-imperialist, you have to be an anti-Zionist. And Israel is Gaza's the focal point because of this

live-streamed genocide. The ICC has issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his former defense minister. The international Court of Justice has been dragging its feet in condemning Israel, but, you know, Israel has a powerful friend, the United States, and the United States vetoes resolutions at the U.N. gives Israel impunity. And so now we have a very dangerous situation. And genocide, I just want to

say about the word genocide. Genocide is defined. It's a very simple destiny. definition, it is targeting a group of people for destruction. And it can be physical destruction. It can be mental destruction. It can be depriving people of food. Everything that Israel and the U.S. have done for the last year and a half fit the definition of genocide. But we, you know, it's terrible the power that this lobby has, Bernie Sanders to his credit. proposed a Senate bill that would restrict weapons sales to Israel. Only 15 senators voted for it, 15 out of 100. And they were immediately attacked by APEC.

The American Israel Political Action Committee, the main Zionist lobbying force attacked, and money will be raised to keep them from winning their seats again. So it's a terrible combination, makes us all complicit. They are now, this week on Black Agenda Radio, I interviewed a scholar who lost her job at Yale Law School because of some AI generated claim that she was involved in a group sanctioned by the U.S. It's Helia Dutagi. So this is where we are because of imperialism, and lately I've been saying a lot because the liberal order goes along. There are some people comparing Trump to Hitler, which is kind of lazy.

You know, everybody you don't like is Hitler. I don't think that's an apt comparison. But if he was, then that means Columbia University is a Nazi collaborator. It means the law firms that are allowing Trump to shake them down are Nazi collaborators. So if you really want to go with that analogy, let's go with it all the way. But this is what imperialism does to every institution. We don't have a real representation in Congress. But it's not the only powerful lobby.

So the people don't have a Congress. but Israel has a Congress Big Pharma has Congress the banks have Congress the military industrial complex they have representation in Congress and Israel is an example of that

yeah perfectly said and that's that touches on a huge point because earlier I mentioned that recent polls are showing that 53% of Americans across the board have an unfavorable view and if you go down to like young people in either party that number goes up

I think 70% of Democrats of any age have an unfavorable view of Israel. So this is, no matter how you slice it, a clear majority of Americans who have an unfavorable view. And almost certainly that would translate to stop funding, stop sending arms, stop giving our money. You know, like you said earlier, Ukraine, Israel has free health care. They have free education, why we struggle here, get medical debt for emergencies. But it's interesting that, and this just goes to your point, huge majorities of Americans have unfavorable view of Israel, but 99.9% of Congress people have a positive view of Israel. And that just shows,

and one example of just the complete disconnect. And this just false idea that we have anything resembling a democracy, anything resembling a representative republic, anything like that is complete nonsense. And it's a mystification. And so when liberals talk about, you know, defending democracy, it just really makes your eyes roll because there is no democracy to defend. I would like democracy. Democracy would be nice. We should try it sometime, but we don't have it. And your point about that that 50,000 number, you keep hearing. Like, we see all the time new hospitals getting bombed, you know, people being massacred on our phones and on our TVs constantly. There's two million people smashed inside of a tiny area of Gaza. And we're meant to believe that the number of dead

have stayed at 50,000 for a year, that there's been virtually no new death. Like, this is just incredible that this is repeated by all mainstream outlets as if it's just a fact. No, the number is 100, 200,000, if not more. Imagine people under rubble that have never been found yet, missing people, that there's no, there's been no confirmation, and then just the total destruction of civil society and the basic infrastructure in Gaza to keep track of those numbers and to get them out and then having them printed in Western sources just not happening. So the number is much, much, much higher than any Western publication, mainstream publication is willing to admit. But the very last point I want to make on this is just, I always try to help people understand

that colonialism, imperialism, and fascism are the three-headed beast of capitalism, right? These are inseparable from one another, and they're inseparable from the underlying mode of production, the dominant mode of production, which is capitalism. So if capitalism is the body, these are the three heads. And what makes Palestinian resistance, I mean, so profound and so important is not only because it's human beings standing up against all odds and fighting back against brutal repression by the most powerful and richest people on earth, but also because they're on the front lines of the fight against colonialism, against U.S. and Western imperialism, and against the fascism that those processes require domestically and abroad to facilitate. And so by being at the front lines against the three heads of capitalism, they really are on the front lines. lines against this entire rotten system. And even if they weren't, they deserve our 100% support.

But the fact that they are is like they are the true revolutionaries in the world right now. And every revolutionary-minded person, every liberation-minded person needs to have full-throated, loud public support for the Palestinian people and highlighting their struggles. And you know, you mentioned that they use Hamas as synonym for the devil and they think if they can just say something as Hamas or they can say something as a terrorist that they can dehumanize them. And this is obviously colonial language, right? The terrorist is the new savage from 150 or 200 years ago. And they try to fit Hamas in that box. But I always like to dehumanize Hamas by saying Hamas and all the elements of the Palestinian resistance were the little boys of

20 years ago who watched Israel kill their family, murder their friends, drop bombs on them, arrest little children, political prisoners, right? And so legally, due to international law, morally, they are justified to resist this brutal, disgusting, genocidal occupation and apartheid regime that is U.S.-backed and imposed by Israel. So on every front, I refuse to participate, and I know you do as well, in the dehumanization of whatever form Palestinian resistance takes. They have every right to fight back by any means necessary, and we have to keep that in mind. but there is a tension here, Margaret, that I'd love your thoughts on when we talk about the U.S. Empire, because we know on one hand that the U.S. Empire is, as we've been talking about, in a state of slow decay and decline, it's spread thin, its international and domestic

reputation has taken severe blows, and it's no longer a unipolar hegemon. But on the other hand, it is still the biggest, strongest, richest, richest military on earth with bases all around the globe, actively engaged in several conflicts and looking for more, particularly as you mentioned in the case of Iran and then eventually China. So with this tension in mind, like, how do we make sense of this? How do we assess the state of American imperialism, which there seems to be strong arguments on both side of this equation regarding it? And how do you, how do you make sense of that? Well, I just want to say that, well, you're absolutely right. And I think we have to be careful.

I did say the empire is in decline, and it is. However, it's like I think of it as a predatory animal. They say, you know, wounded animal is the most dangerous. And I think that's true of the United States. To say that it is, the U.S. is in decline, is not to say that it cannot still cause a great deal of destruction. It can. And fascism is, you know, a sign of capital. capitalism in crisis. And capitalism may be in crisis, but it's not going away anytime soon either. So this is a

particularly dangerous moment where a nation that is on the decline is still very dangerous. The U.S. has, you know, there used to be nuclear agreements between the U.S. and the Soviet Union and then between the U.S. and Russia. the every president from george w bush on has withdrawn from these treaties i mean we have a nuclear war is a possibility i i hate to say that but it is and the u.s still has the military and economic power to cause a great deal of destruction in the world so you know we have to be very astute in our observations and say that um you know these actions are signs of weakness but but they are a sign also of a country that is still very, very dangerous to the rest of humanity. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think we have to keep that tension in mind and not err too far on one side or the other, that these are both true things. And in fact, it makes it more dangerous that U.S. imperialism is in a state of decay while still being so strong. Because it's not only a caged or a cornered animal, but it's an incredibly predatory, strong. scary animal that's in a corner and in a corner and with regards to nuclear war like i think it seems pretty obvious at least right now that if either israel or the united states wherever truly truly like on an existential ledge um you know through military defeat or whatever it may be that they would let the nukes fly um i don't think there's any doubt

about that particularly with israel like if if iran and the region forever if things shifted and they were truly cornered i mean it is in their sort of operational um mandate that that they they let the nukes fly as as a last resort and take out um you know all their enemies at once as they go down and i think the u.s whether it's official or not would would do something similar so yeah this is a their their decline the u.s.'s decline is precisely um cause for for immense concern um in the meantime so we'll see how things play how But we have to keep our eyes wide open on this and support all forms of resistance against imperialism domestically and internationally. But I want to kind of zoom to the other side of this equation.

We've talked about the U.S. and its allies and its empire. But you've participated in international delegations to Nicaragua, where you served as an election observer into Venezuela and China, where you participated in various bilateral meetings and observed humanitarian efforts. What did you learn about those countries during your travels and your studies? And what are your thoughts on the growing global role of China in particular, as the U.S. does lose its grip on ideological, reputational, and geopolitical hegemony? Well, I always tell people that you should, if you're able to travel abroad, you should travel to a country that you're told not to like. nations in this hemisphere that have socialist revolutionary governments Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, we're told they're very bad and the people hate them

and every election is fraudulent, blah, blah, blah. That's why you have to go there and see a Nicaragua election where the opposition was allowed to campaign and see a country that's the safest country in Central America and see a country that is attacked by sanctions, to see the impact on Venezuela, to see the impact on Nicaragua, on the people in these countries. It's very important because we're lied to. The corporate media, they work hand in hand with the state. So if the state tells you Cuba's terrible and people are suffering because they're incompetent

and because they're communist, you need to go. I have not been to Cuba. but I know that the people suffer because Trump put the country on a list of state sponsors of terror and cut it off from being able to conduct financial transactions with any other country in the world. And Biden followed Trump and did not end that. To see to go to China, I was there about a year, last April, to see this country with this amazing infrastructure, to see people who have a good quality of life, to see a government which takes the people's needs into account.

It's very important that we see these things for ourselves. We're told so many lies about the rest of the world. And even if you're anti-imperialist and the leftist, that narrative sinks in, that war propaganda. That's what it is. it all sinks in so it's very important to see for yourself it's important to be active with organizations like black alliance for peace as i mentioned like unact to have these opportunities to learn uh the truth about um other uh countries so um so yes that is important it's important to seek out independent media obviously from black agenda report is a good

resource, but there are others as well. You cannot depend on corporate media to know anything important about the world. And to see the possibilities, we're told that the world we live in here is the only possibility. There are no other options. And when you go other places, you say to yourself, aha, Nicaragua, a country with, I believe it's 7 million people. I know New York City has a bigger population than the city of 8 million people is bigger. than the population of Nicaragua, that you can have a socialist government. People can have free education and free health care. All the things that we're told are off the table are actually being done all over the world.

And this is something we need to work for here, to organize and mobilize, to have a humane system where our rights are respected in the United States. So those are my thoughts about why it's important to know about these countries, especially important to know about countries that we're told our adversaries or enemies or something very bad. Yeah, absolutely. And I wish people had less precarity in their lives so that they could do stuff like travel internationally and see the world because it,

It does dismantle so much of the propaganda. And, you know, I know that Iran is not, by any means, a socialist state, and I would love to visit all the socialist states that you mentioned. But Iran in particular is such a fascinating, beautiful history and culture so unique in the world that it's a real shame how much their, you know, societies are demonized in particular. And I've never been there myself, obviously, and I'm sure it would be fairly difficult to go there. But there are some YouTube channels where you can see Westerners go over there with no preconceived notions in order to actively humanize the populations of countries that Western countries, and particularly the U.S. deem as enemies. And it's just an absolutely gorgeous country. And the people there are so generous. And it just horrifies me and breaks my heart to think that the U.S. and the Israel, two of the most rogue terrorist states on earth, would descend.

upon and destroy and bomb and obliterate Iran, if they had the chance, if they had the slightest chance. And in fact, the Trump administration seems kind of closer than ever to being willing to do this, especially after that latest meeting. We'll see how it actually plays out. But just heartbreaking to think that that would be the thing. But at the same time, the Iranians aren't pushovers. They might be the brick wall that the U.S. Empire slams into if it thinks it can go in there and do to it what it did to Libya or even what it did to Iraq and Afghanistan. So it remains to be seen. But yes, I totally agree with your point.

It's really, really crucial. And the Black Agenda Report and the Black Alliance for Peace, two crucial formations on the anti-imperialist left that I think have some of the, I mean, the Black Agenda Report as a media apparatus and Black Alliance for Peace as an organization have some of the most hopeful seeds for growing real. resistance in this country and I would love nothing more than to see those formations continue to grow and of course I'll link to them in the show notes people can go listen to black agenda report immediately support black alliance for peace or even join them in various ways and again those will be in the show notes for people but I do have a couple more questions for you Margaret and I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom as well as your time and being so generous with both but a couple more questions here as we wrap up this conversation for working class Americans

especially black and brown communities, conditions are obviously worsening. What's your sort of near-term outlook for the U.S. under current economic trends? And what can people expect in terms of austerity, repression, and resistance in the coming years? Well, you know, we can expect more repression. It's interesting that you point out this poll that shows most Americans now have a negative view of Israel. That's why we're seeing so much repression. That's why they're trying to stamp out anyone who utters even the most mundane criticism of Israel. We have seen it with the cop cities, you know, starting in Atlanta, but all over the country.

The goal is actual physical repression should people rise up. So we can expect more of it. but also we have a history of fighting against that repression. You have to identify it. You have to know that it's there. You know, the few good things we have in the United States, the nice things that we unfortunately are deprived of, but what we do have, it's all because of popular mobilization. There'd be no Medicare.

There'd be no Medicaid. There'd be nothing that helps millions of people now, were it not for the civil rights, movement, the liberation movement. So, and we cannot, I mentioned this before, but we cannot rely on the electoral system. You can, I'm not telling people not to vote, but I am saying that is not going to be the road to change. It is not going to be in the ballot box. It's actually the other way around.

The electoral system responds to popular movements. So we have to organize. We have to think about. history, what did work, what didn't work, recognize the repression that's already happened. How can we minimize that impact on our lives? But that is not going to change. As we already discussed, neoliberalism has taken hold and it's, you know, life is more precarious by design. So, but all of that we have to think about how to work together. We have to think about mutual aid.

We have to think about ways to cooperate together because times are tough and they are going to get tougher. Yeah, I truly believe that in the short term, especially things are going to get much, much worse before they get better. And the only hope of them getting better is, as you say, bottom up mass movements, high levels of organization and a united front. Like now is not the time to be nitpicking with one another and tearing down other organizations and well-intentioned people on the real revolutionary left that we're already sort of beleaguered. We're up against brutal enemies with huge amounts of money and power and a repressive state apparatus that is, you know, bolstered by technology like AI and the surveillance state and that's only going to get worse. So we need to be really principled with how we move and we have to come together and have each other's backs. as repression dials up. But as repression dials up, so too does resistance.

As a miseration ramps up, so too does resistance. And so as things get worse, it's not a cause for despair. It's hard times. But it is also a sign of the system's weakness. The system has been able to survive for so long without resorting, in many cases at least, for huge swaths of the mainstream population, without resorting to overt forms of fascist violence in the street. There's been many times where it has done that, but that's going to be more and more common.

And we've already seen tremors of that over the last 10 to 10 to 20 years, 15 years in particular. You mentioned that you are part of the Green Party, and I know electoralism itself is not the solution, and I think we all understand that. And as you said very correctly, that actually it's responsive to mass movements, that that's actually going to move the dial on the electoral front more than just electoral energy in and of itself. But the electoral terrain is a terrain in which, at least for now, most Americans experience politics. Do you have hopes that the Green Party can kind of turn into a fighting multiracial working class anti-imperialist party that can actually throw its weight around on that

stage? Or is that maybe we don't have enough time to build that? We can build it. We are building it. I do want to say this criticism from Democrats about the Green Party doesn't organize. They just try. tried out a candidate to hurt us every four years. First of all, that is such a self-owned. You're a party that can raise a billion dollars and still lose, and it's because of a tiny party with no money. I mean, that just tells you how bankrupt you are. And I wanted to say Democrats go out of their way to kick Greens off the ballot, to stop any kind of Green Party organizing, so that's just a lie. But that also tells you there is power.

in turning away from them people must ditch the democrats and that can take any form it can take be the green party it can be another party it can be any number of things but to keep hanging on to this bankrupt party morally bankrupt party corrupt party and think that you're going to have the change you need that is being on a fool's errand and people need to stop thinking that way but that is what we need to build. We need to build a political party and other formations to oppose this, this repression. It is possible, but it's going to mean a lot of hard work. Absolutely. And it's every single person listening right now. If you have this knowledge, you have this understanding. It is our responsibility, not to do everything, but to do what we

can, to play our role. And the first step is to get organized in some way, build community, build those connections, build those networks, and those are the things that are going to get us through the hard times that are almost inevitable. And I would love to see the real revolutionary working class, anti-imperialists left in this country. You know, not that electoralism is the only or should be the sole focus, but to just like collapse our support behind one party. And if that was the Green Party, you know, imperfect, plenty of disputes and disagreements amongst us, but just to have some more coherent, organized force on the electoral stage, if nothing else, to get our narrative out and to critique that the two-party system as such, there's obvious desire

in the broad population for pro-working-class economic policies, anti-war, international policies, and some sort of formation that is organized enough to take on the corruption in both the major parties. There's obvious desire for that, widespread desire amongst the U.S. population. And so I hope we can do something with that. And, of course, political education is going to continue to be incredibly important. And that's what we try to do here at Rev Left and what you try to do with the Black Agenda Report and so many other voices rising on YouTube and in the podcast world trying to do the same thing. Artists use your artistic ability and put it in service of revolution.

Everybody has a responsibility to organize and educate themselves and others. really hope people take that to heart. So final question for you, Margaret, we don't want to end on a dark note. We know that we are in already hard times and more hard times are likely to come, but, you know, I want to end this on a sort of positive note, and not in a deluded way or in a, you know, in a blindly optimistic way, but in a real way. Like, what gives you hope at this moment? And what are some of the most important steps that people can take right now, concrete steps to kind of move in the direction that we've been talking about? Well, the people give me hope. You know, this crackdown on the college campuses tells you how powerful that student movement was. The need to try to crush it, it tells you how important the people are. The fact that they are coming up with these cop cities tells you how important movements are. The fact that they crushed Occupy Wall Street and the rebellions after George Floyd.

was killed tells you that we have power and my hope is in the people not giving up and realizing that these efforts are repression of repression are proof that we can do so much more so that's where my hope lies yeah you are an incredibly important in principled voice and have been for many many many years and i encourage people to check out the black agenda report check out black Alliance for Peace. Is there any other organization or anything else that you would like to plug or promote as we wrap this conversation up? Yeah, the Black Alliance for Peace has a a black-led membership, but we also have a solidarity network for people who are not of African descent, and you can find out about that, about all of that on the website, Black Alliance

for Peace.com. And of course, read Blackagenda Report.com. We have articles on Wednesday and on Fridays, we have Black Agenda Radio. Perfect. And like I said, I'll link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Margaret. Hopefully we can speak again and keep up the amazing work. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. RevLeft Radio is 100% listener funded.

If you like what we do here, you can support us at patreon.com forward slash revleft radio or make a one-time donation at buy me a coffee.com forward slash rev left radio. Links will be in the show notes. You know,