Rev Left Radio - History of the IWW: Militant Unionism, Wobblie Internationalism, & Class War

Episode Date: March 19, 2020

Prof. Peter Cole joins Breht to talk about the history and internationalism of the IWW: Industrial Workers of the World (aka the Wobblies), as well as to draw out lessons from that history for our current moment. Become a member of the IWW: https://www.iww.org/ Find Peter on Twitter: @ProfPeterCole   Wobblies on the Waterfront: https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/34fnp6ps9780252031861.html   Wobblies of the World: https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745399591/wobblies-of-the-world/   Dockworker Power: https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/48ydk2be9780252042072.html   NLC Mutual Aid Fundraiser: https://chuffed.org/project/spring-fundraiser   Outro music 'Joe Hill' by Paul Robeson ------- LEARN MORE ABOUT REV LEFT RADIO: www.revolutionaryleftradio.com SUPPORT REV LEFT RADIO: www.patreon.com/revleftradio Our logo was made by BARB, a communist graphic design collective: @Barbaradical Intro music by DJ Captain Planet. --------------- This podcast is affiliated with: The Nebraska Left Coalition, Omaha Tenants United, FORGE, Socialist Rifle Association (SRA), Feed The People - Omaha, and the Marxist Center.

Hello everybody and welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. Today we have an episode that's long overdue. We have Peter Cole on to talk about the IWW, the international workers of the world, aka the Woblies. You know, Rev Left's been on the air for three years, and we still haven't done an episode on this, so this is very overdue, but I'm glad we could finally get to it. We cover so much fascinating history about the IWBLEFs. This episode could have been 10 times longer, and I'll definitely have Peter Cole back on or other contributors to this anthology back on the show to talk about different angles, different historical figures, et cetera.

But this is a good first flyover of the history of the IWW. And as I say in the episode, you know, the IWW has played a huge role in my political development. I've often on throughout the years been dues paying members of both the IWW and the GDC, the General Defense Committee, associated with the IWWW. So it's just played a huge role in my life. I know it's played a lot of, and it's played a huge role in a lot of my comrades' life. I've been in gel cells after protests with wobblies. So this shit is deep for me.

And I hope people get as much out of this as I did because this is a wonderful conversation. But really quick, before we get into the episode, I just want to let everybody know that our local organization here in Omaha, the Nebraska Left Coalition, is currently conducting our spring fundraising effort. The money goes to pay for, our mutual aid programs, our financial assistance programs, food autonomy programs, and

especially in the face of this viral outbreak, these sorts of programs are becoming increasingly necessary as more and more vulnerable people, sort of get left behind by the state. So if you have a few dollars laying around and you'd like to contribute to real on-the-ground organizing, we'd really appreciate it. I'll put the link to that fundraiser in the show notes. So definitely toss a few dollars our way, if you have it. Thank you very much. So without further ado, let's get into this conversation with Peter Cole on the history of the IWW. Enjoy. Hi there, my name is Peter Cole, a professor of history. I work at a place called Western Illinois

University, that's in Macomb, a small town between St. Louis and Chicago. And, well, I've been writing about issues about labor in the United States, labor unions, and a lot on the history of race relations for I guess a few decades now and yeah I've written books on the industrial workers of the world whose members are often nicknamed the Woblies and I've also written a lot on dock workers people who load and unload ships in various ports around the world and I'm very happy to come on your program so thank you for the invitation yeah absolutely we're honored to have you I love this this book that we're going to talk about with regards to the IWW, but first and foremost, you know, although the topic of today's episode is the history

of the IWW, you have just released a brand new book, specifically on Doc Workers, as you mentioned. We hope to have an episode on that book at a later date, later this year maybe, but before we get into today's topic, can you just talk a little bit about that new book and let people know where they can find it? Oh, of course. My pleasure. Well, the book is called Doc Worker Power, Race and Activism in Durbin and the San Francisco Bay Area.

and the title sort of gives away what the book is about. But basically, I talk about in the 20th century in ports both in the United States, one of the biggest, and in South Africa, in Durbin being one of the largest ports sexually in the southern hemisphere, how dock workers historically have had tremendous power despite the fact that they are so-called unskilled workers and how they've not just used their collective strength to improve their own, say, lives, like, say, through. wages, hours, conditions, and the like. But actually, a lot of my book examines how workers, dock workers specifically have used their power to fight for other social just movements. For instance, the fight for racial equality in the United States and in South Africa. And I also write about how workers have used their power, potential power, even to fight on behalf of liberation struggles in other countries for people on behalf of people that they don't actually know. And I also write a lot about technological change in that book, how basically a new technological

process called containerization was introduced in the 1960s and 70s, which revolutionized global trade resulted in a huge increase in global trade, but also how that impacted the workers in that field of shipping, well, nowadays, if there's an issue bigger than automation in workplaces, I'm not really sure what it is. So my book explores a number of themes related to this pivotal industry in the history of the world and in the history of capitalism and also in our times. And the last thing I'll say is that the motto of the union, both unions that I study in the U.S. and South Africa is an injury to one, is an injury to all. And the motto that they take, which is in some ways the single sentence that most accurately explains why working people should work together

and why they often do is actually a motto that was first created by the industrial workers of the world. Beautiful. Yeah, and I will link to that book in the show notes for people who are interested. And as I said, we plan on coming back and having an episode solely dedicated to that because that's a crucial part of labor history. So moving on to the topic today, there's a lot to cover. But the first question I'd like to ask when it comes to stuff like this is the sort of how you came personally to be initially interested in the IWW. And maybe you can talk a little bit about your work and your research over the years pertaining to the IWW. Of course. So if you're an ordinary human being in the United States or any other country, probably you've never heard of

the industrial workers of the world. And I'll often say the IWW like you have, but again, a lot of the time members are called Wobbies, which is a term of affection. It's not an insulting term. So I didn't know the first thing about the Woblies when I was a young graduate student in the early in mid-1990s, but I knew that I was interested in social movements, which is basically how people, ordinary people, combine in order to basically have more power. Maybe that's to fight for civil rights. Maybe that's to fight for women's equality. Maybe it's to fight for, you know, gay rights. But also, really, it's been the largest of these social movements is labor, because all of us work. And maybe even where we have more power than even the ballot box

is maybe on the job. And so I was interested in social movements. I was interested in the labor movement, but I was also interested, as many of us are, in the struggle for black equality in the United States. It seemed like such a contradiction that America constantly is boasting about being a sort of a country of equality and freedom when in fact our history and even our present tells us otherwise. And so I was really interested in exploring how unions might have used their power to fight for racial equality, both on the job and off the job. And so in my explorations as a young graduate student, I came across a union in the early 20th century of dock workers in Philadelphia who were multiracial, multi-ethnic, included immigrants and Native-born Americans, included African

Americans, and Irish Americans, included Jews and Protestants and Catholics. And arguably, they were the single most radically inclusive union of their era, of their generation. And they happened to be in the IWW. And so I ended up writing my dissertation and then first book on that group of people. But I learned that of course it was no coincidence that they were in the IWW. It was because they were in the IWW that in fact it was the most radically inclusive union of their era. And so that really sort of interest continues to this day. And so for instance, I co-edited a book called Wobbies of the World, which we'll talk about. But my interest really was random and sort of I stumbled across it. And I think that's the case even more so nowadays with the

internet, where people have ideas about what they believe or what they think should exist and wonder and start basically exploring metaphorically and literally for institutions, unions and others that in fact are fighting the causes that we believe should be fought. And for me, I wanted to basically use an example of, there's plenty, plenty of examples of racism and unions and sexism and xenophobia in America. We should understand that. But to me, I also wanted to investigate a subject that really might provide inspiration as opposed to simply depression about the way the humans often get along. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And just, you know, from my perspective really quick, my interactions with the IW. sort of what you're saying is like, you know, when I was sort of looking for political alternatives to mainstream liberalism as a young person moving leftward, the IWW played a huge role in my transition. I was a, you know, a dues-paying member for a long time. It really helped me get into the left-wing politics at different times throughout my political development. I was a member of the IWW and the GDC. I even have a pretty prominent arm tattoo of the Sabo Cat pinning down the Don't Tread on Me Snake that I got, you know, years. and years ago. So the IWW has certainly played a huge role in my political development. And I think a lot of

other people as well that I know and that I organize with. So that's wonderful. And, you know, we've been on the air for three years and we still have not done an IWW episode. So I'm really happy that we can finally tackle this today. Well, it's been too long. Yeah, for sure. Way too long. So let's go ahead and dive into the, to the history of the wobblies. You know, how did they initially form and really out of what economic and political conditions did they arise? Yeah, so the history of the IWW, including its early years, which are sometimes maybe thought of as the glory years because they were the most powerful and numerically significant in the early decades, although the IWW is still alive and well,

as you know, better than me. You know, we can relate, right? Imagine a time where tremendous economic inequality exists. Imagine a time where there are a handful of people who are. billionaires, but there are many millions who actually are struggling simply to make enough money to survive, to pay the rent, and support themselves or their families. Imagine a time when mainstream unions, in fact, exist, but are largely focused upon the short-term economic interests of their members, and some of whom, but perhaps many of whom are also, have some

combination of racist, sexist, and xenophobic tendencies. That's 1905, right? And so in the United States in 1905, America was producing tremendous wealth, but many people were seeing none of those gains or benefits. And the mainstream labor movement, which was represented by unions that belonged to the American Federation of Labor, really didn't see that as a problem. Their members were doing relatively well, if not actually great, and they didn't see themselves as obligated to fight on behalf of others, or even to try to drastically or radically expand their numbers. Of course, they would have wanted to, but they didn't really make much effort. They actively excluded people, African Americans and women being the most obvious, but also

even many European immigrants and Americans who were seen as the enemy as opposed to potential allies. And so in Chicago, Illinois, which then was the greatest industrial city in the United States. And in some ways, the world, right, is where the IWW was formed, right? It sort of revealed the contradictions that existed in America, but more broadly in an industrial capitalist society. And so several hundred people who came from many different parts of the country, and in fact even some came from Canada and other countries, men and though some women met in Chicago on the near north side, not far from the Louvre, and wanted to form and did form a radical alternative to the American Federation of Labor. So even their name tells us right away, right? They envision themselves not as a U.S. institution, even though it was started in the U.S. and it was largest in terms of numbers in the U.S., but they call themselves the industrial workers of the world.

They actually had a debate about that at their founding convention. Some people suggested the industrial workers of America as an alternative, but clearly a riff off the American Federation of Labor. But others, including some of the non-Americans, including some who were anarchists, who already were more internationally minded than many others, basically said, no, we have a larger vision, but also, crucially, capitalism. It's not an American institution. It's a global institution. And capitalism knows no country loyalty, really. So why should workers? And so ultimately, at that convention, they decided on a much more expansive name, right,

because they saw themselves as not simply wanting to do what the AFAVL does and other unions do, which is sort of, say, fight for better wages, safer work, places, et cetera. But also, you know, very clearly, they put. sort of class analysis into the center of their institution from the get-go, most famously in their preamble to the Constitution, which it says something, I'm paraphrasing, employers and workers share nothing in common, right? And so they didn't want to reform the system. They wanted to revolutionize it, right? Not to get rid of industrialization, but to get rid of capitalism, right? And so that was from their inception, they were an anti-capitalist union or you might, the term often has been used

a revolutionary union in contrast to a union that might be militant, but which primary end is simply a bit more money, a bit more safety, a bit more, say, security. Yeah. Absolutely. And your point that you open that answer with about the conditions out of which they arose was well taken because those conditions are absolutely being replicated again in the current age, and we're seeing that explode all around us. So definitely food for thought. You know, capitalism sort of operates in these cycles. And, you know, to break out of this spiral that capitalism has us locked in,

we really have to, you know, overthrow or transcend class society and its entirety. And I love the internationalism, you know, rooted from the very beginning in this organization's outlook, which is really wonderful. And it was a huge advantage when they, you know, when they went on strikes and they, organized and they engaged in the class struggle, having that internationalist outlook was essential to making them stand out from those other unions, as you said. Now, who are some of the most prominent members of the IW? And maybe you can talk about some of their contributions. I know there's a lot of members you could talk about, so you can kind of take that in any direction

you want. Sure. Well, it's exciting to think about sort of a lot of the lions and lionesses of the IWW and there. Just think about who was there in Chicago in 1905, right? So Eugene Debs, is there. You know, I know now that he's the darling of the DSA, which is nothing, I mean, I'm pro DSA, but like, you know, a democratic socialist, right? And so, Debs, of course, was a labor leader who had led the greatest strike in the 1890s, the Pullman strike. In Chicago was the center of that strike, which basically shut down the railroad industry, until the federal government crushed the strike through its U.S. Army and through the courts, and through Debs into prison. And out of prison, he comes, and he helps form the Socialist Party of America.

and then runs for president repeatedly, but he also never abandoned his working class in union roots. And so some socialist, self-identified capital S, who wanted to use electoral politics, very much saw the IWW as they hoped for a, you might say, a trade union arm, right, of the socialist movement. There was Mother Jones, who was a legendary labor leader, whose age might have been unknown, but who, who, who was definitely one of the greatest union organizers in the 1800s and early 1900s, which is why Teddy Roosevelt, the president, called her the most dangerous woman in America when she was in her 80s, right? There was, you know, Lucy Parsons, right, the widow of Albert Parsons, who was one of the Haymarket Martyrs from 1886, executed by the state of Illinois in 1887 for a crime he didn't commit, which was, to this day, We still don't know who threw the bomb in Chicago in 1886 on May 3rd that resulted in the crushing of the Knights of Labor, as well as the anarchist movement at that time, right?

Lucy Parsons was Chicagoan who was a fiery radical until her death in the late 30s. There was Big Bill Haywood, right, who came out of the Western Federation of Miners. He had been a minor in, well, as a teen, he had lost an eye along the way. and had become a leader among silver, gold, and hard rock miners across the Rocky Mountain West. He was actually chaired the founding convention of the IWW, which he called famously the Continental Congress of the Working Class. A reference back to the continental congresses that had resulted in the decoration of independence and the formation of, well, the first democracy in the modern world, right? Like a list of people goes on, but really those four alone gives you a sense of the sort of the radicals who gathered, some of whom were representing unions, some other institutions and some just as individuals, but who believed that there was a desperate need for and that then was the time for a revolutionary union to be born. Yeah, that's an absolute, I mean, just that lineup right there alone is an absolute powerhouse of.

of left labor history in the U.S. You know, you've mentioned anarchism. I was hoping you could talk, and you know, to this day, I think, I'm not quite sure if this is correct, but I think that if I remember correctly, the IWW says, you know, we don't actually officially formally say that we're any one tendency or another,

but can you talk about the ideology of the wobblies and its relationship maybe to other prominent revolutionary and radical left-wing movements? Of course, that's very important. I agree. So, you know, the IWD, was often sort of long on radicalism and weak on ideology and consistency, which in a way might be very human, right? So the IWW, I mean, famously again, Big Bill Haywood said on some

occasion, I've never read Marx, as in Karl Marx, but I've got the marks of capitalism all over me. So they're like, okay, they aren't the sorts who get together in a reading groups, right, and study capital, volume one, two, and three. Although that doesn't mean to say that a lot of these men and women aren't educated or intelligent or well-read. But they often sort of downplayed developing an ideological framework, although what we could say, there's a number of things that we can definitely say. So first of all, they at first were distant from and over time became much more clear about rejecting electoral politics as a means to their end, right? They essentially saw elections as reformist, but also that, you know, the electoral system

is never going to result in radical change, right? Now, one could debate that endlessly, but that's what Wobwees believed, right? And so in that way, they are very much in line with more anarchist thinking, right, that reject electoral politics and political parties. Now, we always have to keep in mind that the Communist Party does not exist yet. It wouldn't be until for another 12 years that the Russian Revolution happens. And the first, you know, self-identified communist nation is born. And so there are Marxists around, and I consider actually all anti-capitalists to be Marxists of a sort,

because they see sort of the economic conditions of capitalism to be, inherently problematic and unable to be reformed. Instead, you need more radical change. And so, you know, in 1908, famously, the IWW had a split. They had more than one, in which those who believed in sort of keeping one foot in electoral politics and one foot in anarchistic. Sometimes this was also called syndicalist ideology, so that those who were still thinking about electoral politics, including a group who were led by a man named Daniel De Leon, who was one of the founders, basically left or were kicked out.

Now, there were still some who played in both camps. The IWW didn't really care. Like, you could take out a red card if you wanted, but you could also be a member of a political party if you wanted. But in 1912, 1913, the Socialist Party also expelled all the wobbles, at least from leadership ranks, because Big Bill Haywood had been on the executive board of the Socialist Party until like 1912, 1913, for example.

And so when we use the term syndicalist, I think it's also important to sort of figure that out. And so that generally means that people who believe in that worker power is on the job as opposed to in the ballot box, in a social movement, say, on the streets, right? Instead, it's on the job. That's where workers have power, and that's therefore where workers and union should concentrate their energy, right? And so, although vague, the idea was that when workers were organized well enough, they would declare a general strike, not just in a city, but industry,

country, and worldwide, and then would basically take over, right? And so the idea that you would achieve revolution through workplace action, as opposed to political action, right? That's why sometimes, even though the term is sort of lengthy anarcho-syndical, list is also a part of it because, as you know, many anarchists actually don't play much with unions or think about working class matters at all. They really just think about individualism, and that's why you might also call anarchists left libertarians. And so, you know, of course, anarchists, there's many different sorts of anarchists, but not all anarchists who are interested in focusing their energies on working class organization. In fact, there are many anarchists who are

not working class, who might in fact even be capitalist of a sort. And so, you know, there's like disagreements, obviously, but the wobbles were pretty consistent in sort of not advocating for political change because political matters were basically controlled entirely by and for the ruling class, which was the capitalist class. And so the IWWC, is therefore that it's a waste, right, to sort of fixate on who's running for office as well as even trusting the court system because that system is basically controlled and really in a way organized by and for the rich. Yeah, absolutely. Well said. I mean, that's a lot of nuance that you parsed through expertly, and I appreciate that. Now, when we open this conversation,

you mentioned this and, you know, the wobblies were known to be well ahead of their time with regards to their approach to racism and sexism, even compared to other socialist movements like the Socialist Party. Can you talk about the efforts of the Wobbleys to unite the working class across racial and gendered lines, its engagement with the Black freedom struggle, and even possibly the role they played specifically in the American South at that time? Well, of course, I'm happy to give that a go. So, you know, the Socialist Party, the official Socialist Party, was actually pretty good compared to the two main parties in the United States when it came to, you know, understanding that people regardless of their ethnicity, race, sex, et cetera, should all be part of the same movement. Yeah.

However, there were a good number of socialists in some of their chapters that were exclusionary in the south towards African Americans, in the west, towards Chinese and maybe other Asian people. And so everything is relative. I think Debs in particular actually was pretty clearly committed to anti-racism. But he didn't hit that again and again and again. And he tolerated basically some fellow socialists who might not have held his views. By contrast, the IWW was more consistent in terms of trying to time and time again get over the prejudices that we have. been sort of acculturated to accept in the United States, white supremacy and patriarchy being two, so that the IWW immediately was saying, okay, it doesn't really matter if you're black, if you're

white, if you're a woman or a man, you should be in this union. Now, we should be appreciative that they're not the first institution in America to say such things. The nights of labor, albeit imperfectly, was also advocating for this in the 1870s and 1880s. And even the IWW motto, is sort of a modified version of the Knights who said an injury to one is a concern of all as opposed to an injury to one isn't an injury to all. And so the IWW doesn't come out of nowhere. They also build upon previous radical unions.

But the IWW basically took that, you might say, to the next level and operationalize that better. I always like to use the example of, although I actually personally like the idea of calling fellow workers in the labor movement brothers and sisters. Some people take exception to that in our times. But the IWW were the ones who coined this phrase fellow worker, right, which is a gender neutral way to refer to other people

who are part of the working class. I was drawn to the IWW, as I said earlier, because I was interested in anti-racist unions. But the truth of the matter is before the 1930s, when a bunch of unions are formed who are part of the Congress of Industrial Organizations, the CIA, that really the IWW was the first powerful union to say, we are organizing it regardless of race. And in Philadelphia, the place that I have studied the most extensively in terms of the IWW, you know, in 1913 when this union was born on the waterfront there, approximately one-third of the members were African-American, one-third of the members were Irish immigrant. and Irish Americans, and one-third of the members were other forms of European immigrants.

Now, in that sort of workforce, which employers we should note love, employers are not necessarily anti-racist, but they like diversity because our own racist, xenophobic, and other prejudices might weaken us, right? And so the IWW brought the ideology that was necessary to organize such a diverse workforce, led not insignificantly by an African-American named Ben Fletcher, who was born in Philadelphia, who was also at that time a socialist, although he was much more wobbly, who was the leader of this institution that came to be known as Local 8, the branch of the IWW in Philadelphia on the waterfront. And so for almost a decade, there was anywhere from 3 to 5,000 dock workers, also called Longshore Men.

And at that time, there were no women in the workplace. So longshore men was the term widely used, still used by some. So that if you look around America at that time, there was no institution, no union, that basically was doing that sort of thing. Now, they also organized in other places, and African Americans and other places joined the IWW also, but not in the numbers, that not in the thousands, with the exception, for a few years in the early 19 teens around the same time, just before World War I, when timber workers in Louisiana, Texas, and other parts of the American South, who were affiliated with the Brotherhood of Timberworkers, affiliated with the IW, and then the IWW pushed it to become even more anti-racists, so there were black and white members of this

BTW. But it was Haywood famously who had a convention of the Brotherhood said, if we're going to be working together, how come the blacks are in one place and the whites are in another? We need to integrate. That was also illegal, literally, in the state of Louisiana, but nevertheless, they did it, right? And so those are the two best examples of African-American organizing in the Wobwees. It's also worth noting the Wobwees organized Asian and Asian-American farm workers as well as Mexican and Mexican-American miners and other workers across the West. When it came to women, well, we should be aware that far fewer women earned wages outside of the home in that era. compared to now. But women were far underrepresented in the labor movement. They also were underrepresented in the IWWW. The Wobbies did organize many thousands of women workers,

especially in industries like Texel manufacturing in the Northeast and the Mid-Atlantic. They even attempted to organize actually female domestic workers in various places. And there were a number of prominent female members of the I-W-W. The most well-known was Elizabeth Gurley-L-E-L-E-Y, it was her mother's maiden name. But Elizabeth Gurley-Flynn, who was nicknamed by Joe Hill, the songwriter, the Rebel Girl. She was young when she joined the Socialists and then the Wobbies. And so there were a significant number of women in the IWW, although it was a a largely male institution in many, many places, right, which represented in a way the demographics

of work in early 20th century in America. Sure. So you mentioned that it was, you know, sort of, it's all relative, as you said. I was wondering, could you talk about maybe some unions that existed at that time that were, you know, racist or like maybe explicitly white supremacists just so people can have some sort of context of just how progressive the wobblies were here? Sure. Well, actually, pick any.

But like, you know, some unions actually had racial bars in their constitution or bylaws that simply said no African Americans, right? And so, for instance, the International Association of Machinists, which is still around in a powerful union and is a better union now than it was then. But the IAM, for instance, didn't let in black folks, right? Another example is that the American Federation of Labor, which is like an umbrella, which is in the same way the IW. is, right? It has a number of different industries and branches in different places. The AFAVL would tolerate segregated unions in its member unions. So most unions that included African Americans, including, for instance, on the waterfront. So there was an AFAvel union called the International Longshore Men's Association, ILA, which still exists and represents workers

in the Gulf and the Atlantic coasts. The ILA segregated. members. So there would have been a black local in the port of New Orleans and a white local, right? Now, that's segregation and inequality, no question. The ILA was actually better than most unions, because also if you look at the numbers of blacks in unions, most unions had very, very few, right? That's why famously Booker T. Washington, who was the most well-known African-American in the early 20th century, basically told black workers, We have no problem if black workers scab, right? Because in fact, most white unions didn't include or treat black people equally, which while is a form of class traitor, is also quite understandable given the desire to eat.

And so, you know, the AFAVL generally was known as racist. The IWW who had all sorts of wonderful nicknames often called it the American separation of labor. Damn. You mentioned Joe Hill really quick and this sort of a side question because I just thought of this. What was Joe Hill's connection to the IW? Was he like a formal member or just somebody that was a prominent voice that advocated for them? What was the connection there? Yeah. So not to plug the book too much, but we've got a great chapter. That's the last chapter in our book, Wobbies of the World, which is an anthology. So about 20 different contributors to that book. But by Bucky Hawker, who's a professional musician as well as a professional historian about the music of Joe Hill. So Joe Hill was a Swedish immigrant to the United States. He moved to the U.S. in around 1910 and already was a musician and wrote songs, but quickly picked up English, which is no easy task, because he wrote all sorts of songs. He was a formal member of the IWW. He wrote many songs, some of which are still sung. There's also a famous song written about him, obviously, by someone else called I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night.

Paul Robeson legendaryly sang in the mid-20th century Joan Baez sang it I think at Woodstock but many times etc. So Joe Hill was basically a brilliant songwriter and I don't think there's any recorded

music by him singing but Hill traveled a lot and famously was in the state of Utah in 1914, 1915 and might have been having an affair with a married woman, we actually are not sure, but a murder was committed or a killing was committed in the state of Utah, despite actually some evidence

that wasn't Joe Hill, found Joe Hill guilty of murder and then executed him in 1915, right? Which is why, you know, the joke is that when Joe Hill was buried, he wants to be buried anywhere but Utah, right, and why, of course, he was cremated and his ashes were actually distributed by IWW networks across the country and world. And so Joe Hale wrote a number of songs, he wrote the song, The River Girl, he wrote The Preacher and the Slave, he wrote Where the Fraser River flows, Casey Jones, you know, the union scab. he's uh many of his songs were part of a small book that was called the little red song book

which the iww printed uh it still prints this there's been many additions um but basically um for a quarter right or two bits yeah you could buy this book which we could fit in your back pocket right um and like many folk singers he would basically take a tune that was familiar to many people and then change the lyrics that way you could learn a song more easily because you already know the tune, right? And so he might write all sorts of songs and a number of songs are still in more recent editions of the Little Reds songbook. Wow. Fascinating. Do you know how old he was when he died? I don't, but I would guess he was around 30 or something maybe. Yeah, tragic. Man. Incredible story. But then the story of how a communist later wrote a song in the 30s

right about Joe Hill, that then Paul Robeson, who was a legendary African-American artist and activist who I always tell people, if you've not heard of Paul Robeson, it's because his crew was destroyed because of his politics by the U.S. federal government destroyed. But he was the greatest singer. He was the most well-known black person in the world in the 1930s and 40s and 50s, right? And he was a fierce critic of racism at home and abroad. He was a fierce supporter of anti-colonial struggles in Africa he was also a outspoken supporter of the soviet union and of labor unions and so robeson is the person who I was just literally this week writing an article about paul robeson and that's why I'm on a robeson kick but in the 1940s

he said in this one article I just read yesterday he was saying Joe Hill at every single performance wow amazing yeah we need a whole episode on robeson for sure but i never i never knew that connection was so strong that's beautiful so moving on to to the next question you know although the iw was created in the united states you know it quickly broke beyond its borders seeping first into canada and mexico but then to the rest of the world in fact a central focus of the text that you helped edit is precisely the wobbly's international and transnational reach i know you can't possibly cover all of it and i urge listeners who want to learn more about this to get the book. But can you talk about its international dimensions and sort of how it arose

in different parts of the world? Of course, yeah. You know, it is fascinating. And getting the name industrial workers the world tells us a lot. And so as I mentioned, there were members of the IWW who were not U.S. nationals or lived in the U.S. And like you said, it quickly spread across North America. But, you know, the industry that I've also studied a lot is shipping, maritime. time. Mostly people who work in port cities, but also those who work on ships. So the IWW idea, the IWW words, the IW ideology, as well as IWW publications. And as you know, they were also genius artists, right? And so, you know, the black cat, right, is the sort of classic example. Who was spreading this? Right. It was wobbly sailors, right? Like, I mean,

So, you know, a wobbly in the port of New York or the port of San Francisco or the port of New Orleans boards a ship. And that ship isn't only delivering goods around the coast of America. It's doing it around the world. And again, remember, America even then was actually at the start of its sort of power as a world economy. And so, you know, we don't know always or even most of the time at how specifically, like that it was person A in time B, in Port C. But we know that the IWW idea and members traveled all over the world and that chapters were being formed, right, in UK, in Germany, in France, in Spain, right, in Sweden, in Denmark, etc. We know that the IW spread to Australia and New Zealand and Japan. We know that the IJW was in

South Africa. We know that the IWW and its members were in Cuba and Chile and Argentina. Argentina and other parts of Latin America, right? And so this book that I helped create and edit really has different chapters that explore the IWW in many places. But bringing this into America, we also know, as sort of we all know it, is that, you know, America is that, you know, America is a country of immigrants. Even in the United States, yeah, the majority of the publications of the IWW were not printed in English, right? the majority of IWW newspapers were printed in languages other than English, Spanish, Polish, German, et cetera, right, Finnish. And so for many people, myself included, who don't read foreign languages, languages other than English, were missing a huge part of the story. So, in fact, many historians of the IWW in the U.S. for decades were basically not telling the true story, the complete story of the IWWW because they were ignorant of foreign languages, right?

So we also, of course, in this book, have people from foreign countries, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Spain, et cetera, writing these, right? And so it's not just Americans who read these other languages, although we have some of those, right, in our book, right? But the IWW was really the first union in the world. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think I am, right? That was intentionally trying to. Now, it was very decentralized. and that might be the good and the bad of anarchism, right? Like, is that there's no coordination, right? They're in communication with each other, right? They really operate sort of as separate entities, which is good and bad, probably. Also, if repression happens in one place, well, it doesn't necessarily destroy the other places, right? But, you know, through print as well as people traveling, as well as through even telegrams and the like, it was quite simple and possible for for people to exchange ideas and information across long distances

but it like I said it was especially sailors so that I always I love the story right about how the fact that in the South Atlantic right Cape Town is the most maybe well-known city in South Africa outside of South Africa even though it's the second largest city but that it was through Cape Town that that wobbly ideas must have been transmitted probably by British sailors, although, again, we're not sure, so that the motto starts to get picked up and also adopted by other institutions at working class institutions, black working class institutions that have nothing to do with the IWW, right? But nevertheless, that motto is the tell that in fact, clearly the IW is around because

where did this injury to one, is an injury to all things come from? Even today in South Africa, the largest labor federation, which is called Kosatu, the Congress of South African Trade Unions. that's their motto. An injury to one is an injury to all. I've got a hat, right, of the dock workers union with that motto on it from Durbin. And so the internationalism of the IWW suggests that, well, they were putting their vision into practice of a sort, right? Transnationalism is another term. We use much more now than in the past. And that's often means that, you know, people are connecting and movements are connecting across national borders as opposed to, you know, government to government, right, or corporation to corporation, although corporations also act transnationally across nations. And so the IWW was both, as you said, international and transnational. I think that's important for us to sort of keep in mind, but also that even in our continent, wobblies were going back and forth between the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, as would have

other non-wobbly workers, right, simply for job opportunities and whatnot. Yeah. And so that was very much the case in the 19-teens and 1920s. Yeah, absolutely fascinating. But, you know, with this level of organization and class consciousness and international influence, you're going to make some enemies. So what forces came ultimately to oppose the wobblies? What sort of repression and opposition did they face? And maybe can you talk about some specific examples?

Yeah, of course. Well, you know and any listener could predict, right, employers and governments. Right. Exactly. Short. Right. Like, but I'll use the example of, again, the sort of the folks who I studied the closest, these Philadelphia dock workers, right?

So you've got the strongest black-led, multiracial, multinational union in the country, right? In a port city, which was among the five busiest ports in America, and what then was the third biggest city in the United States, right? And just to complicate matters, and, you know, the IWW, imperfect is every, one of us and things are. Woblies were loading weapons for the U.S. war effort for the allies, right, in France and Britain, right, like during World War I. In fact, a lot of the jobs that these guys were doing was loading cargo supplies, military, et cetera, aboard these ships that were manufactured in, you know, Philadelphia and other factories for fighting the Germans in France,

right so the iww never took an official stance against the war even though many wobblies were anti-war because it's german workers killing french workers killing american workers killing british workers when the true enemy might be the employer right so like we're mindful of that and local eight in particular sometimes is criticized after the fact and maybe during the time for you know do you strike against the war well very very very very very very very very people did, but they didn't either. So nevertheless, their power is clear. And so during and after the war, especially after the war, and say employers and the government work together along with the AFL's union, the ILA, to try to destroy the IWW, along with a new player, the Communist Party.

And so it's very complicated, right? But basically what you've got is in 1920, Local 8 pulls off its biggest strike ever. About 10,000 workers shut down the port of Philadelphia. Employers, of course, want the IWWW out. I should also note, as you may know, the IWW didn't sign contracts, right? And so they refused to give up the power of the strike. Almost all contracts in the United States having no strike clause in them, meaning that the only time unions have the legal rights of strike is in between contracts, right? And so, like, the IWW didn't want to give up the strike power, and so they always had these oral agreements that generally lasted, say, a year. So the IWW once an eight-hour day. Well, we all would have at that time wanted that.

Rather than negotiate it, because the employers wouldn't go for it, they basically go on strike 48-hour day. Employers want to work their workers longer. Yeah, employers don't like the radicalism and the multiracialism of the IW. Employers have the support of the city and the national governments. The federal government has spies within the IWW from the U.S. shipping board, the Department of Navy Intelligence, and the Bureau of Investigation, which later became known as the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Companies have their own private spy networks. Everyone's heard of the Pinkertons for some reason, but there's actually a lot of other detective agencies out there, including one called the Baldwin Deltz organization, right? The city government is providing the

police, which are crocking heads and occasionally killing strikers, right? And the federal government literally moves one of his chips into the harbor on the port in order to allow companies to rent free house their strike breakers, right? And of course, as usual, employers are happy to pay strike breakers the wages that the workers want, right? And so all these forces come together. I should also note that racism is very much alive and well, right? And actually on the rise after World War I. And so some workers have racist tendencies, right? And a lot of these new workers, because during the war, there was an increase in the number of rural southern blacks who moved into industrial cities like Philadelphia, have little experience with industrialization and unions, let alone the loblis.

And the birth of a new nation in Eurasia, the Soviet Union, the Soviets want to, if you might say capture the IWW, which is not surprising. They want to get basically, it would have been the most left-wing anti-capitalist union in America and other countries if they could re-affiliate with the communist international, the common

term, right? So all these forces are in play, most of which are weakening or ripping the IWW and Local 8 in particular apart. And so actually Local 8 survives 1920, but in 22 they're locked out again,

and locked out, meaning employers basically just shut them away. They do so on the eve of winter when workers need more money in order to do things like buy coal to heat their apartments, as well as work declines in the winter in shipping. And so you need to save money to basically live out the winter. And the ILA is happy to sort of basically provide strike breakers too so that all this together comes to sort of weaken and then ultimately destroy local aid's power on the waterfront.

Now, I should have also said, and the last thing I'll say is that the federal government during and after War I, as you know, is arresting wobbly leaders around the country, raiding IWW offices and confiscating records. And in World War I, in 1918, then in Chicago, the largest trial in the history of the country at that time was about approximately 100 IWW leaders who were put on trial in a federal court, including six people from Philadelphia and four from local eight. And all of them found guilty after four months on trial in under an hour by a jury, right, and sentenced to federal prison sentences in Bavon, North Kansas.

And Ben Fletcher and the other Wobbly leaders in Philly are part of that, 10 to 20 year terms plus, you know, 10 to $20,000 fines, which is still a lot of money, but then would be like $200,000 fines, right? And so if you adjust for inflation. And so the repression of the federal government, but also in collusion with employers, as well as with mainstream unions, was tremendous. And ultimately, the IWW was dramatically weakened, if not entirely destroyed by the mid-1920s in the U.S. Yeah, yeah, this ongoing repression. Yeah, culminated with all this stuff. Woodrow Wilson administration, the rise of World War I, espionage and seditions act. You can tell at this period of time, they're really beaten down. What were the ultimate effects for like the next several decades, maybe the 40s, 50s, 60s? What were the lasting effects of this really culmination of repression on the IWW? Right. And so in terms of numbers, the IWW by the mid-20s, they still have actually tens of thousands of members in the U.S. And I should also know that WW still exist in many other countries, right?

But also sort of suffering somewhat similarly, especially in countries like Australia and in many European places. But like, you know, by the 30s, the number of IWW members are in the thousands, not in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. In many places, there are members, but they don't have the strength to command basically power in a workplace, right? they can't really represent where her interests, say, to improve wages, to sort of get rid of racist bosses, et cetera, right? And so they're still members, but their ability to really sort of shape workplace relations, which is, in a way, the most immediate reason that people join unions, is minuscule, right? Like, the influence, however, well, one might say that it's tremendous. I mentioned earlier how in the 1930s a bunch of unions

and formed the CIO in auto in meatpacking and steel, West Coast Longshore, and other industries. A lot of former wobblies as well as wobbly ideas are clearly a part of the conversation and part of the reason that these unions are much more anti-racist and anti- xenophobic than they had been before.

So you can't quantify that. But nevertheless, literally, and the AFOVL also becomes somewhat better over time, right? And so, say, by the early 1940s, there's 10 million workers in unions, right? Like, whereas, say, in 1930, there would have been fewer than a million, right? And so in the 30s and into the first half of the 40s, there's an explosion in union membership. But also that many of these unions are much more overtly inclusive and militant. And in some cases, more left. The Communist Party, actually, by the 30s also is an important force.

And the communists and the wobbies don't get along, but, you know, actually the wobbies, I would say, somewhat shape CPUSA ideas. And so as well as, for that matter, in South Africa and maybe some other countries, right? And so longer term, I would say the IWW has tremendous influence. And as you know, in recent years, actually, there's been a spike in IWW membership, which is significant. But, you know, in terms of like how many people are in the IW and where are they actually agitating in specific cities and industries, the answer is from the 30s onward, it's very, very little. So would it be fair to say that after the, you know, basically that huge culmination and crackdown, although the IWW formally was radically, was radically, weekend, a lot of its key members or a lot of its workers and a lot of the ideas that were really, you know, formed inside the IWW went on to have positive influences on the broader

union movement over the next several decades. Yeah, I would say undeniably. But, you know, like this is where like history and what we call qualitative method become, you know, a bit fuzzier, right? I'm okay with that, right? Like, but I mean, sometimes you can draw lines. So I'll give you one example. My most recent book, right, is about the West Coast dock workers, especially in San Francisco, who are part of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, ILWU, Local 10 is there, San Francisco Bay Area, a branch. So Harry Bridges is the most famous member. He passed away about 30 years ago.

So he was a young Australian immigrant who ended up in San Francisco in the 20s. But then he moved around some, and it was in New Orleans that he joined the IWW. you later he moved back to San Francisco in the 20s and helped then form in 1934 the ILW out of the big strike which shut down the West Coast ports for the entire summer of 1934 pretty much Bridges was a wobbly for a short while

officially a paper member, right? But of course after you stop paying dues does that mean it doesn't continue to shape how you think? Of course not. And so, you know, is it only because of bridges that the ILW motto is an injury to one is an injury to all? No, there are actually other wobblies. And up and down the West Coast, including in port cities who had been wobbles also. But, you know, that the first president,

who was president for 40 years of the OWU, was, you know, had been a wobbly for a while. That clearly is something. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess the way to maybe zoom in towards a close of this wonderful conversation, I mean, there's so much more we could talk about, of course. And, you know, I'd love to have you back on and talk about this stuff more because we could go down a million different rabbit holes here. But ultimately, like, sort of what do you think the legacy of the IWW has been sort of on the international left? And importantly, what do you think radicals and revolutionaries and, you know, unionists today sitting as we are at the crossroads for not only our class, but our species, should learn from the IWW, in your opinion? I'm a historian, right? Like I spent all my time, so much of my time thinking about these matters.

And so for me, it's sort of obvious, right, that the past shapes the present. We are who we are as individuals, but also as a society in a world because of what's come before. Now, most people sort of accept that if you just say it like that. But, you know, I think that actually in America in particular, we're sort of often a historical, Meaning we don't really sort of think about history and often sort of think it doesn't matter, right? And we give it lip service, right? But for me, not surprisingly, I just sort of see it as tremendously influential. Now, that's both sort of in good and bad ways, right?

Lessons to learn, I think that's crucial, right? So, you know, any institution that wants to represent working class people and wants to fight against capitalism has to understand. the forces are right against it, right? Because you will be naive if you don't. And guess what? Capitalists have been winning, right? Like they've been winning for several centuries, right? Like, although anti-capitalists might have morality as well as maybe the future on our

sides, it's far from queer, right? And so, you know, as exciting as now is, because, I mean, as horrible as there may be people in the world, racist, nationalist, sexist, fascists, right? And there's also actually a great many people who are embracing radical, revolutionary ideas, right? Like, if you don't think repression is on the plate, then you've already sort of lost, right? So we have to be prepared for this. I don't know exactly what that means in practice, but I know that a couple of months ago I met with some people who were in the Tech Workers Coalition in the San Francisco Bay Area. These are people who get paid well sometimes, even if their contracts are precarious.

but if you're trying to organize Google, but you're using Google Docs, you've already lost, right? So I don't have the answers. I wish I did for all these questions, but we have to be aware that repression is going to happen, not just from the Donald Trump's, but also from, you know, so-called liberals who actually don't see the economic system as the root cause of many of our problems, right? And so one is, watch out. The other is, of course, we have to be better, right? Like, we have to sort of fight against our worst selves, you know, whether that is racism,

whether that's sexism, whether that's nativism, which is the term in America historically for what now is more, I think, better referred to as xenophobia, right? Like, because, you know, our prejudices are going to divide us. Ultimately, that wobbly motto is, I think, it comes back to that for me. That's the genius, right? Like, also, of course, they widely use this term that many of us use, not just IWW folks, solidarity, right? Like, we have to sort of appreciate that our strength is our numbers, right? And for the Wabwees, but also many others, that our strength isn't just in numbers, but our number is at work, right? Like, that I am

personally, not anti-electoral politics. I don't think personally, if I have some limited power to sort of elect person A instead of person B, and I think person is much better, I don't see a problem with using that power, right? Like, is that power going to result in revolution? Probably not. But, like, does that mean that my little world or my part of the world couldn't be better? I think it could be, right? And so, like, I think that being sort of really sort of self-aware of,

abandoning how prejudices can sort of divide and therefore weaken us. Yeah, like we can't learn that lesson enough right now that's related to repression, but it's also on us, right? Like it's too easy to blame the bosses for everything, right? Like too many of us, in fact, breathe the air of white supremacy, right? Breathe the air of us versus them, whether it's a Mexican or a Honduran. And so I think those lessons, the IWW actually has some brilliant, things to say and they were thinking these thoughts for the last hundred plus years absolutely yeah

well said and you know as we pointed out a few times in this conversation the iww the gdc they still exist if you're looking for an organization to get active um to prepare for what's coming because things aren't going to get better in the next few decades things are only sort of going to enter more periods of crisis contradictions are becoming more obvious the masks are falling off you know that's one org that you can absolutely do great work in and we can look at just today like the Nevada caucus was yesterday. Look at how even the neoliberal centrist Democrats lose their mind over the slightest small baby step toward European-style social democracy, literally pulling their hair out on air,

freaking out about this. Imagine, you know, what their reaction is going to be when we really take this class struggle to new unforeseen levels, or at least for a long time, unforeseen levels the last 40 years of this neoliberal dystopia. You know, the enemies, the masks are coming off. The enemies are making clear which side they see. stand on these false dichotomies between liberal and conservative democrat republican they're falling the center of american politics and really global politics is falling out we're entering this new

period and i think we can look back on these legacies and this historical epochs and eras and an organization and movement like the wobblies and learn so much so thank you peter for coming on and helping teach these lessons and teach us this wonderful beautiful history but before i let you go can you please let listeners know where they can find you and your work online? Well, sure. You know, I've got a simple name, but like there's a lot of people who share it. And so like, but if you, you know, type in my name and sort of the name of IW or doc workers, you'll find my stuff. I always tell people, you know, of course, I'd be honored to have people purchase my books. Go to your public library or your university library or your school library and ask them to purchase those books, right?

That way, more than one person has the access to them, that actually is really important, I think, for people to be able to gain information. Woblies were great readers. They weren't often college graduates, but they often were actually reading a lot. They just look at all the things they publish, right? Like, you know, of course, a lot of us don't read books. I could talk a long time about that. But, like, fortunately, I also write shorter pieces and including online. you know, whether it's at in these times or whether it's at shaping SF, which is a wonderful

sort of SF-based wiki, whether it's at Jacobin, whether it's at other places. And so if one really wants to read something by me, well, thank you very much. And you'll be able to find it soon enough. You know, the last thing I say about that is if you want to buy a book, if you can buy it directly from the publisher instead of through Amazon, that also is sort of a good thing. So the University of Illinois Press, which is a small nonprofit publisher, scholarly publisher. We're asking your independent bookstore to order a book. That is preferable to the Amazon, which is, of course, another word for the devil, right? Exactly.

Exactly. Well, thank you again for coming on. It's been wonderful. I'll link to as much of that as I possibly can in the show notes, including a link to the IWW's website so people can easily find that and join, you know, because we encourage people to do so. Thank you again, Peter, for coming on. I really do want to have you back to specifically talk about your book on dock workers and other stuff because this has been a wonderful conversation and your profound historical knowledge is really thrilling and exciting and a wonderful thing to engage with. So thank you so much for coming on. Well, thank you for having me.

Thanks to all the people who listen to your podcast. I only hope my students feel the same as you. I dreamed I saw joyless night alive as you. and me says I but Joe here ten years dead I never died says he never died says he in Salt Lake City Joe says I am standing by my bed they framed you on a murder charge says Joe, but I'm dead. Says Joe, but I'm dead. The copper bosses killed you, Joe, they shot you, Joe, says I. Takes more than guns to kill a man, says Joe, I didn't die.

Says Joe, I didn't die. And standing there as big as life, and smiling with his eyes, Says Joe, what they can never kill, Went on to organize. Went on to organize. From San Diego up to Maine in every mine and mill Where workers strike and organize

It's there you'll find Joe Hill It's there you'll find Jew Hill I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night live as you and me, says I, but Joe, you're ten years dead, I never died, says he. I never died, says he. I never died, says he. I never died, says he. I never died. says he me Thank you.