Rev Left Radio - Imperialism Abroad, Fascism at Home: GILEE, Cop City, & 1033 Program

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Musa and Tunde from the ATL chapter of the Black Alliance for Peace join Breht to discuss the GILEE Program (Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange) and its implications, the construction of Cop City (and the plans for more), the militarization of police in an era of capitalist and liberal crisis, Israel and its connections to GILEE, the Palestinian Liberation movement, "Black Mecca" and its class contradictions, and what all this means for our near-future... Check out BAP-Atlanta HERE Check out the Groundings Podcast HERE Check out Demilitarize US to Palestine HERE Follow BAP on Twitter or on Insta Outro Song by Liberation Beats ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get 15% off any book in the Left Wing Books Library HERE   Support Rev Left Radio Follow Rev Left on IG 

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. On today's episode, I have on Tunday and Musa from the Black Alliance for Peace, the Atlanta chapter, to talk about Gilly, the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange, which is a program that the U.S. runs in this context through the Georgia State University Foundation and these other funding sources, by which domestic police forces can link up with and train with foreign forces, specifically the Israeli occupying forces, to train police tactics, suppression tactics, etc. We talk about Cop City and its connection to Gilly. We talk about the 1033 program, which is a program by which military gear can get funneled down for very, very cheap to local police departments, militarizing those police departments

in the process. society as a whole the protest movements in the past the the position that the ruling class is coming from and what their intentions are with such programs and what they think the future is what we think the future is what the black alliance for peace and other organizations are doing on the ground to counter these these attempts to basically implement you know cop city implement these various fascist formations etc so this is a really important episode that I think ties a lot of things that you hear. You hear stuff like, oh, militarized police equipment and you hear stuff like, oh, there's cop cities being built. And you hear, oh, the U.S. works with Israel to

train their forces. And sometimes those things can seem like disparate strands of political intrigue, but they are all deeply connected. And we make that very clear through this episode, couldn't ask for two better guests on to do just that. So that's what we're going to be covering today. And for those that don't know, we have a wonderful, a collaboration, with the comrades over at leftwingbooks.net and Chris Plebledeb, who are offering Rev Left listeners 15% off any book in their ever-growing library. They have wonderful, wonderful texts of theory, of proletarian and anti-colonial history, anti-imperialism, and I'm just scrolling the front page of their book section just to pull out some books that people

might be interested. I see the communist necessity by J. Malfoyd Paul. Highly recommend. We've done an episode, many, many episodes of JMP. We've done an episode on that book in particular, really good stuff. The Red Army Factions, the Urban Guerrilla Concept, looks dope. 500 years of Indigenous Resistance comic book by Gord Hill. We have the essential works of Lenin on the vanguard by Kevin Rashid Johnson, who we interviewed from prison on this show. Essays from the Minister of Defense from the Black Panther Party.

Of course, continuity and rupture. All of JMP's works, I believe, are on. on this, the Black Panthers speak, collective works of the Black Liberation Army, Ireland, colonialism, and the Unfinished Revolution, the marks and angles on colonies, industrial monopoly, and the working class movement. And I could go on all day.

There's 130 pages to tab through of books that people can check out and get a discount just for being a Rev Left listener. So it's a really cool opportunity. We're really happy to collaborate with the good folks over there, and I highly recommend you check them out. But without further ado, here's my conversation with Musa and Tunday from the Black Alliance for Peace Atlanta chapter

on Gilly, Cop City, the 1033 program, and so much more. Enjoy. Enjoy. My name is Tunday Osawa. I'm a member of the Black Alliance for Peace, Atlanta, citywide. Alliance, and also with the demilitarized Atlanta to Palestine Coalition, and just happy to be here. Hey, y'all, I'm Musa, a host of the Groundings podcast, also a member of the Black Alliance for Peace in Atlanta, also happen to be the international youth representative for the Red Barial Afro

Descendante, a cultural worker organizer here in the south, and always happy to be invited to Rev. Left. And thanks for having us. Absolutely. It's an honor and a pleasure to have you both back on. You've both been on multiple episodes, I believe, Walter Rodney episode, Kwame Nakrumah episode, Afrikan episodes, et cetera. So I know you've both been on individually, never together. It's an honor to have you back on. And of course, I love everything that the Black Alliance for Peace does. And I always am excited to give that organization, you know, airtime here on Rev. Left. But today we're going to be talking about the Gilly program. So for those who don't know, what exactly is the Gilly program and who

importantly is Robert Friedman? Yeah. So I will start us off. So Gilly stands for the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange. And it's a prominent deadly exchange program based here in Atlanta at the Georgia State University campus. They have an office on the sixth floor of the Andrew Young, I guess an institute of policy studies building and it's kind of part of that program. It's a kind of, it's built as like a research

institution, but really it's a deadly exchange program. So, you know, there are multiple instances of deadly exchange programs throughout the country, right? A lot of them are facilitated by I guess Zionist formations, but this one, right, is through the university and all of these programs, they bring together, you know, U.S. law enforcement. So, you know, U.S. police, ICE agents, you know, FBI, you know, Homeland Security, all sorts of law enforcement and bringing them

together with their counterparts in Israel. So, you know, the Israeli national police, just the Israeli occupation forces in general, right? and they work to exchange really what we would call the worst practices to promote the colonial occupation of, you know, working class and poor communities here in the U.S., and, you know, they're really occupied by the police here, right? Like, you could call the police like something like occupying armies. And so I think these deadly exchange programs, they are used to maintain. the settler-thonial state, right, like the settler colonial nature of this society. And so with Gidley, right, it's pretty prominent, you know, over 1,500 U.S. law enforcement officials across the country have participated in exchanges. It's something like 46,000, yeah, I think 46, or 43,000 public safety, homeland, security, and police, like leadership, like executives have, like, like, attended Gilly-led briefings, seminars, workshops, you know, training sessions and conferences

just to discuss issues of like Homeland Security, right, you know, public safety, law enforcement in general. And so the point of the, well, you know, the program was founded in 1992 by a Georgia State University professor Robert Friedman, who, you know, he, you know, he now serves as the founding director. I think it's his area of expertise. I believe he was a physics professor, but he's written a lot about what they, you know, what they call counterterrorism. And maybe Musa can speak more to who Robert Freeman is, but, you know, he's made all sorts of, you know, I guess anti-Aer of anti-Muslim, Islamophobic statements, right? They kind of reflect like a racist ideology. But yeah, I'll pass it to Mr. to continue. Yeah, thank you for that Sunday. So, yeah,

as you said, Gilly is the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange Program. And I think one thing that's really important for listeners to understand is that Gilly is just one of these programs that is primarily located in Georgia, but all across the nation. There are several of these programs that do exactly what Gilly does. So they facilitate training and exchange of ideas and cooperation between local pigs and Zionist pigs. This could be in the form of them quite literally bringing dozens of U.S. pigs over to occupied Palestine and have them trained directly with Zionist occupation forces. Or they come over here and so our neighborhoods to to train the pigs who oppress us.

And so it's essentially oppressor swapping notes. And the Giddly program, like Tunday said, was started by Robert Friedman in 1992. Robert Freeman is a sociologist and criminologist who is heavily, heavily invested in Zionism and the project of Israel throughout his entire career. And working at Georgia State University, in the heart of Atlanta, people need to understand the context. And when this program started in 1992 was when there was talk of Atlanta hosting the Olympics. The Olympics was an extremely watershed moment for the city because some of the things that took place were hundreds of black homeless people being put on one-way buses out of the city, being lied to and told that they were going to be receiving a bed and a warm meal and jobs where they were going.

new law enforcement agencies were actually created in Atlanta, municipal agencies. And then, of course, there is this massive, quote-unquote, counterterrorism and surveillance and militarization push underneath all of it. And so part of this was criminalizing the poor, criminalizing working class people, under the guise of claiming that they were doing, quote-unquote, counterterrorism, because the Olympics made our city allegedly vulnerable to so-called terrorism. So this is where Gilly comes from. Gilly arises out of this sentiment of criminalizing homeless people, criminalizing black people,

heightened surveillance. This is also around the time when the foundations are started to be laid for the Operation Shield, early version of that across Atlanta, which is a network of tens of thousands of security cameras across the city and other forms of surveillance. And so this program is actually housed at Georgia State, like Tunday said, in the Institute of Policy Studies. But it's basically sponsored and fully funded through groups like the Atlanta Police Foundation and the Georgia State Foundation. And so these are nonprofit private entities that allows major corporations to funnel money into this yearly program essentially. So I'm going to stop there because there's so much we could say,

but, you know, this is essentially police from the U.S. and occupying force of black and oppressed people already, going and trading notes with how to best occupy and police and dominate the people from the people who are currently committing genocide, right? The people who are oppressing Palestinians and who are live streaming a genocide right now, the local police officers patrolling your neighborhood is learning from them. So like that is really what's at the heart of all of this. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think one of the features here that has been spoken to already by both of you, but just to sort of put a fine point on it, is that this Gilly program represents the sort of international solidarity between imperialist forces, but even more specifically

settler colonial entities who have similar issues, right? You have a native population, indigenous peoples, oppressed nationalities within your borders that need to be controlled that are by their very nature, impoverished and ghettoized and set aside from mainstream culture. They're preyed upon by the state. They're policed very heavily. And so, you know, Israel being the sort of quintessential, you know, settler colonial entity in the 21st century, just like all of its 18th, 17th century brutalities and absurdities and intrinsic racisms are just given full-throated support and articulation by Israel. And so, of course, it would make sense that these two entities work together. And of course, Israel and the United States were two of the very last countries on earth to finally accept the dissolution of apartheid South Africa.

They rode for South Africa up until the very, very end when it was literally impossible to continue doing so. And, of course, supplied and supported and funded and armed and backed politically and gave cover to apartheid South Africa. So these connections are very important. And of course, everybody on this call understands the utter essential nature of international solidarity for, you know, colonial colonized people and for oppressed people and for the proletariat globally because our enemies are very international in their structures as well. So we have to at least match that, right? Well, let's go ahead and move on to this next question. I'm going to skip a couple questions ahead and just talk about funding because Musa, you were already going into that. so I figure we can kind of flesh that out a little bit more.

You talked about some of the organizations behind it, and you mentioned that there was corporate funding for these programs. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the corporations who are funding this program and why it would be in the interests of these seemingly disparate corporations to fund a program like this? Yeah, well, and I think, you know, something you said a second ago, too, that needs to be named is that there is a massive Zionist propaganda. campaign. There has been for at least 75 years now, but especially in the last 20 years of claiming that the illegitimate occupying apartheid genocidal Israeli state is, quote, unquote, the most advanced military in the world, right? And this is all predicated on them slaughtering Palestinians. And also, it's just simply not true. They're getting slaughtered on the battlefield by guerrillas at this moment. And so programs like Gilly also operate to legitimate the propaganda that Israel is some miraculously advanced revolutionary fighting force when it's just simply not true at all.

So I did just want to like, you know, add that point on to as well. And there have been, so the thing is Gilly, one of the operating, one of the ways that Gilly operates is their secrecy and very shadowy dealings. in many ways it is sort of collusion between private and public interests because everything is funneled through donations to these nonprofit entities that then distribute the money or funnel the money through the university department and or you know directly into the program and so like we've been seeing this with cop city for example uh it would be journalistic malpractice to a certain extent for me to claim that at Home Depot is directly giving money to Cop City. However, they're giving tens of millions of dollars to the Atlanta Police Foundation, which sponsors and is actually operating Cop City, right? And so in that regard, Gilly operates the same way. There is a nonprofit. It's slipping my mind, but maybe Tuneik can help me at Georgia State. I believe it's the Georgia State Foundation, if I'm not mistaken. But, you know, they're essentially the largest fundraiser for Gilly.

The other one is the Atlanta Police Foundation. So between these two organizations, we have, you know, tax records of donations from groups like local groups, especially that have a big who control essentially and dominate local economy in Atlanta like Delta, Home Depot, Coca-Cola, Starbucks, Norfolk Southern, which was recently responsible for a massive economic or ecological catastrophe. All of these organizations throughout the past have been donating millions of dollars over the years to these nonprofit foundations that funnel money back into the Gidley program. And then on top of that, Georgia State itself, the university houses and is what is fully funding the actual operation. There were individuals a few months ago who actually went to the Gilly headquarters and did an action and disrupted it. And it's quite literally housed on campus in the Andrew Young International Policy Building, right? So the one of the biggest sponsors of it who we have to put pressure on is Georgia State University. And in fact, Georgia State University has awarded Robbie Freeman over the years for this program multiple times and appraised and use this program to actually attract more donors and more donations.

and so I'll yield there and pass it over a Tunday, but I think one of the biggest money sources behind it is the university itself. Absolutely. The university is a key pressure point because, you know, a lot of the donations, as Musa mentioned, come through that Georgia State University Foundation, right, which is it's a tax-exempt nonprofit, foundation or organization, right? And so, you know, corporations, like, like Melissa mentioned,

use the Atlanta Police Foundation or APF, which is, you know, another private organization that funnels corporate money toward these types of policing initiatives to funnel money to the Gilly program. You know, some people think of APF or the Atlanta Police Foundation as kind of like a funding source, but also kind of a public relations arm of the Atlanta Police Department that helps promote, you know, anti-crime hysteria and, you know, spread the police perspective of thing, right? And most large cities actually have a police foundation. And so, you know, the, like basically every big city. And so, you know, even though Atlanta ranks in like 39th in terms of total population in the U.S. you know, the APF is actually the largest police foundation in the country, largely because the cop city is, you know, we should point it to, but, you know, they actually tripled their income in 2021 because they got something like $26 million in contributions. And, you know, the second largest police foundation, which is the New York Police Foundation, brought in just under $8 million.

But yeah, as Musa, like, there are all sorts of large corporations that have a presence here in Atlanta, like Bank of America, Chick-fil-A, Coca-Cola, AT&T, and Waffle House, and Home Depot, and more that are large donors to the Police Foundation, which, again, is behind all sorts of initiatives, like Cop City, like Operation Shield, and, you know, is a big player in this Gilly program. But a lot of corporations actually choose to donate directly to Gilly through the GSU Foundation, right? So, you know, some of them, some of those I mentioned earlier, like UPS and Equifax and Georgia Power are on the record is, you know, giving large sums of money to the Georgia State University Foundation for Gilly. There are also some Zionist non-profits here in Atlanta, like the Jewish Federation of Greater Atlanta that give a lot of money for Gilly. Right. Like they are making multiple, you know, $100,000 contributions to support the operations of the program. And then it's not just corporations, right? Like the city of Atlanta has its own ways to contribute funding to Gilly, even the state of Georgia and at the federal level, right? Like the Department of Justice has a way of contributing, right, to this program. And so I think, you know, There are so many different funding sources, but we can use the Georgia State University Foundation and Georgia State in general as a pressure point to fight back against this program. Yeah, Musa, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I just, you know, again, it's so hard to even choose what to say sometimes in these interviews because they're so, so much.

but in 2022 Gilly had its 30th anniversary celebration which was partially sponsored by Mercedes-Benz and Delta at the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta at a special lounge there co-sponsored also by the Andrew Young School of Policy Studies at Georgia State the honorary host of the event

and this is all from the Gilly website by the way was the, his name is Bernie Marcus, a.k.a. the co-founder of Hong Depot and I believe a board member as well. Our current Atlanta mayor, Andre Dickens, the police chief. So these are just some of the, a few of the people who were all in the room at this celebration of this event. And I think that gives such a glaring example of how this program is really the collusion of capital with public interest. And then on top of that, I think there's a lot of propaganda that gets pushed out in local media because the Cox Foundation, which is a massive media conglomerate and Koch corporations, they own roughly, I think the last number I saw was like 94% of all the media in the state of Georgia. And they have any significant chunk of media nationally, but I'm just talking about where I'm from. And so there were U.S. there were dual citizens between the illegitimate state of Israel and the illegitimate state of US

who in the October 7th Alaska flood operation were killed actually and these people were trained by Gilly and the the Gilly team right and essentially like Tunday said the Atlanta Police Foundation as a PR team rushed to plant stories all across local media both in print media, digital media, and on local news, mourning for these colonizer soldiers who were trained. And the whole story angle is, look, they were trained here with us in Georgia and they died over there, you know. And so even at a local level, there is this very, very big push

to legitimate the entire operation that is very insidious and just shows how these police foundations, like Tunday said, work as a PRR of the police. Yeah, and throughout that answer, Cop City was mentioned, and I'm sure most people listening to a show like this are familiar with what Cop City is, but for those who might not be fully aware, can you let us know exactly what Cop City is, what Cop Cities are? Because I think there are plans for more of these around the country, if I'm not mistaken, but the main one with the most attention is certainly based just outside of Atlanta, if I'm correct. Can you just

talk about what Cop City is, what the state says their purpose is with it, and what local activists understand their purposes to be? Yeah, I'll start on this one. So the city of Atlanta has leased 381 acres of South River Forest or Wayloni Forest to the Atlanta Police Foundation. And, you know, that foundation is working to construct a militarized police training facility that is funded by corporations as a price tag of over $100 million. And, you know,

basically, you know, while they present Cop City as like a technologically advanced environment for effective training for law enforcement, and, you know,

the cheaper bonus of the facility, like, you know, Atlanta mayor, Andre Dickens and a police foundation official, claim that it will be used to train police better. We know that that isn't, yeah, the training isn't going to have a meaningful impact for everyday people, right? Like, during the George Ford Uprising, actually, in Atlanta, there was our own instance

of, you know, high profile police terror with the assassination of Rayshar Brooks, who was a 27-year-old black restaurant worker here in southwest Atlanta by police. And the police officer who, who assassinated him, Garrett Rol, had recently been involved in, you know, deadly force and de-escalation training like earlier that year, a few months earlier. And, you know, the training that they engage in is not effective in terms of lessening or ending the role of police, you know, in our society and in Kaldonist community, right? And so we know the additional training or a training center won't help that. But if we look at really the plans for Cop City here in Atlanta, right, it, you know, reveals even more, right? It includes like a mock city to practice urban warfare.

It has tear gas and explosive testing. There are dozens of shooting ranges. There's a Black Hawk helicopter landing pad, right? Like all of these features kind of show that, you know, this is the type of. training that they used to deal with like a hostile or an enemy or captive population, right? And so like we as activists here, as organizers, we understand that like these, this cop city here in Atlanta and the ones across the country are going to be used to help police prepare to further control, colonize, incarcerate, and terrorize for working class and oppressed people. Right.

And so that's that's our understanding. And we've been referring to it as an urban warfare training center because the plans, the initial plans, are exactly that. And cop city is actually, in my view, an example of one of the, well, it's a result of the deadly exchange because the Zionist state built its own cop city in occupied Palestine, right? that that top city is officially known as the urban warfare training center so they're out in the open with it right uh the scientists say they don't they don't have to play games with the propaganda as much with with that but you know the is really the design of soldiers who run military drills there call it mini gaza or little gaza um because it literally uh uh uh uh contains a mock a mock gaza right Like, they're able to accommodate exercises for an entire brigade of 2,000 soldiers at a single time.

You know, there have been U.S. troops and police and forces who have trained there along with, you know, forces from across, you know, Europe and other parts of the world. But, you know, so it's an example of what is to come right here. They're sharing strategies, tools, and tactics, you know, utilized abroad by, you know, the Zubes. and stayed by Israel, and those are going to be mirrored here through Cop City. And the cop cities that are springing up or are being planned and proposed across the country. Yeah. And, you know, I think that part of what we have to understand is the context that we're even, how we even got to where we are to really, you know, we have had at least since around 2013, we have had pretty much consistent of rising, revolts, riots, marches, protests, direct

actions. Increasingly, you know, more and more, now we have labor getting involved with strikes, walkouts, there's union movements, protests for racial justice, protests for et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Counterinsurgency is working in real time as we're working. and so as they see as all of this unrest is there our material conditions are also in the fucking toilet right like wages are deeply exploitative and suppressed and by all measures there's hyper exploitation we have mass incarceration there's a rent and housing crisis and so the people we are reacting as organically and naturally possible in response by organizing and uprising and so in 2020 with the protest subsequent from the murder of George Floyd, we saw massive uprisings. We had over 13,000 people across the country arrested during protests during the summer of 2020.

13,000. That's in 50 states. That's a huge number in all 50 states at that. And so Cop City was something that they had already been mulling on and having sort of like the back burner. in the city of Atlanta. And then 2020 happens and you have thousands of people hitting the streets and protesting and police precincts burning and taking place. Then they use this as justification to sort of supercharge the cop city plans and rush it forward

saying we need this now more than ever. Our police need to be trained more than ever. And in fact, didn't, I couldn't. It's so fucking. offensive. It's actually like hard to even keep it straight sometimes. They, they were going to have, uh, part of it is like a Martin Luther King's civil rights sort of workshop or something at the training center. I'm sure Tune can correct me, but you know, they're trying to incorporate quote unquote racial justice into the cop city. Um, so this, the reason why I think it's

important to understand that Atlanta has, we have the most attention because we had a forest defender, Tortugita, who was assassinated here in Atlanta for trying to fight against Cop City. But these cop cities, there's over 69 proposed across the country. And I think having that context that it was the response to like our countrywide revolt and uprising. And now we're getting a coordinated national response, right, from both. And I think Sunday mentioned too, you know, Barack Obama. Obama called Atlanta a quote unquote model city for policing and praise. This is a police force that has killed ample black people that oppresses black people every day. And so they're

literally looking at Atlanta as like a vanguard of counterinsurgency, of suppressing protests, of active repression. So that is how we've gotten to this point now where there's like 61 to 62 protesters, people, some people who were just hanging up posters around town, literally, receiving RICO charges and domestic terrorism charges. This is part of like this national crackdown and really fascist violence and wave against organizers and activists. And as Tunday just reminded me, Cop City was originally called the Institute. of social justice and they were probably going to get Tyler Perry to cut the ribbon on there or something, you know. But anyway, I'll yield there because there's so much more I could

say, but I don't know, you know, what your thoughts are. I love that, Brett. Yeah, well, I certainly have thoughts. One of the thoughts that I think you were gesturing towards this and really making this argument, which is that this is a concerted and coordinated national and with international dimensions response to largely movements that have been popping off for the last several years, but specifically the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020, which really through this country, you know, into turmoil and every major city had weeks and months of uprisings. I can't help but note that Atlanta is this famously black city with this long, you know, sort of cultural epicenter of black culture, black resistance, going back and be through the

civil rights movement and passed it. And the fact that, yes, cop cities are being built and being proposed all around the country, of course, they would have to be. But the fact that Atlanta becomes this focal point, I don't think is an accident. And I do think are even going back to the funding that we were talking about a few questions back about these corporate interests who, you know, fund the Georgia State University Foundation. They probably get nice tax deductions and get to present that as philanthropy. We're supporting the community when in reality they're supporting this focus on, on, policing the opposite of defunding, you know, more funding for the police because I think our ruling class knows on some level, especially at the higher up you go that this is more conscious

that this system is in crisis, this system cannot provide for the vast majority of human beings, that their profits are really centered and are maintained by the status quo, and that we have these two roads we can go down, more or less, which is radical reform or even outright revolution, where we actually address the root problems of this country, which would deeply threaten the interests of the ruling class elite and of these corporations and their profiteering, or we're going to go down the road of maintaining the status quo through violence. The status quo can no longer truly be maintained by ideological mystification and paying off enough people, and there's a labor aristocracy in a middle class, which acts as a bulwark against

the poor. That whole system is disintegrating. And so they realized that, that police force militarized violence is going to have to be the only other option if they don't want, which they don't, radical reform or revolution. And so whether that's a conscious strategizing of CEOs in these corporations or just a sort of background, ambient, understanding amongst the ruling class, I think that plays a huge role in this. And yes, the acute moment is the Black Lives Matter protest of 2020. And then this is this response to it. But I also think that that was one of many tremors for this coming earthquake, that this system, as it currently exists, is not sustainable. And they're going to sustain it with pure violence. And what better

place to look, if that's your goal, than what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So that just makes sense. And I'm wondering if that resonates with either of you. I mean, it absolutely resonates. And this is something that the Black Alliance for Peace, Atlanta, citywide alliance. We've been very clear on this. from the from the beginning um this is why we're so adamant on making connections to the violence of a of imperialism abroad and domestically because i think a lot of people forget or or don't realize that domestically especially colonized populations here within this u.s we also are are victims of imperialist violence right and so when the panthers decades

ago, we're saying what the pigs do, you know, to our brothers in Vietnam, the pigs here due to us, they weren't just trying to make some catchy slogan. They were really providing us with the lens, the correct lens to see this shit with. Sorry for Cussin a lot. It's a Saturday. We're recorded. I'm relaxing. But, you know, another aspect, too, that I think the connects Cops city if we take the pigs at their own words right they are saying in their own words cop city will allow them to expand all of their capabilities it will allow all of their programs to have more space and more capability it will allow um police departments around the state around the region around the country and around the world that's their phrasing um to come and train here

And so, one, there's already about half a dozen to it, well, I think now a dozen departments in the state of Georgia who are trained with Israel. There is helpless police departments nationally who are trained with Israel. And so what we assume and we can expect based on their own words is that Gilly is part and parcel with Cop City, and this is going to allow them to expand Gilly even more. And like Tunday was saying, there's a quote unquote little Gaza that the IDF uses. Our Operation Shield here in Atlanta is built from the command and control center that Israel keeps in Jerusalem. When we were protesting in 2016 and 2017, they were using direct Israeli occupation tactics almost like cattling. We were occupying a lawn and they would not allow food, water, and medicine in. Several of the police who they sent out to repress the protests were wearing these fake Israeli kufias that they get and these little pins that they get when they finish the program, actually.

So we have direct, I can even personally say direct experience of seeing U.S. Atlanta police trained by Israel being sent directly. against protesters all the way back as early as like 2015, 2016. So this is really just like the development of all of those counter-surge at forces. Tundar, you have anything to add to that? I, you know, really appreciate what y'all shared. I agree. You know, I think, you know, the rationale, objective of, you know, increased imperialist violence, increase militaristic violence

is to maintain the system. And so we see this in many different forms, right? Cops City is just one manifestation, right? Like we've seen you know, uh, uh, increases in police killings, right? Like it seems like the past few years, like the, the, the,

they keep breaking records in terms of how many, um, people that, the, the pigs kill, right? There, there's an increase in surveillance and, and, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, I guess mass black incarceration, right? You know, there's this targeting of activists. I think Luce spoke to the domestic terrorism charges, I think 46 or so cop city activist face, and then there's the 61 RICO charges. But then, you know, going back to like a few years, right,

there was the targeting of black identity extremists by the FBI, right? There is this increase of repression and, you know, militarism domestically. But we also see that internationally, like y'all were speaking to, right? You know, militarism is a central element of, you know, U.S. imperialist strategy, right? And so, you know, we see these escalating and never-ending military interventions. We also see unconventional warfare in the form of economic warfare, right, with sanctions. And, you know, I think what we're seeing is, is, you know, this will continue to escalate unless we, we press on, you know, the vulnerabilities of this state, right? And I think that that's where we have to have to press, right? And that's essential part of, you know, Bab's focus. We're focused on the military, militaristic manifestations of imperialism, like the imperialism in its military form. And so, you know, that's, that's part of this, this anti-Gilly work. Like, how can we,

you know, utilize what we have at our disposal, right? How can we build, you know, people power to, and strategically think about how we can expose these, these connections, uh, and shut down programs like, like Gilly. Um, but yeah, I was just appreciating what y'all shared, uh, earlier. Sure, yeah. Another thing I was going to add, maybe you have thoughts on this as well, is, you know, we've noticed with the sort of corporate centrist Dems as well as sort of all the reactionary right of every different stripe, this increasing paranoia and hysteria about campus politics, right? Even the Zionists are targeting students and trying to ruin their lives and their futures who just go out and acknowledge Palestinian humanity. And I think a part of that hysteria

from those centers of power and those interests that are interested in maintaining the status quo is that the life that young people have lived through, right? We've lived through the Great Recession. We've lived through the war on terror. We've lived through Standing Rock and Black Lives Matter. Palestine is now, you know, deeply educating an entire generation of young people about how the dynamics of oppression and how it plays out and young people are turning against, you know, Israel, which is unthought of, unheard of, even 20 years ago, that this would be this much grassroots momentum against such an important U.S. ally as this outpost in West Asia for their imperialist and colonialist interest. And I think

there's a lot of real concern with these figures and these movements that are interested in the status quo, we're interested in going backwards, that young people, not just because they're young and starry-eyed, but because they've lived through the material conditions deteriorating rapidly. There has been multiracial, you know, sort of coming together in solidarity around things like Palestine and the Black Lives Matter movement, a lot of those white kids that in the 60s or 70s would have been safely and securely middle class and therefore might have grown out of their radicalism once they got a home and they got a nice job with a nice pension. That's no longer there, which, you know, is one of the things that the system has sort of relied on is these pitting of different classes

amongst the working class against each other, different races against each other, you know, buying out part of the proletariat and turning them against lower parts of the proletariat. That whole system of control, I think, is falling away as well. And I think one, one manifestation of that is precisely this hysteria that you'll hear from Bill Maher as well as from like, you know, the hardcore fascist right and everybody in between that, that there's a real problem with, with these campus politics and these young people are so stupid, so naive, et cetera, et cetera, trying to denigrate them in every single way. And I think underneath that, that hysteria and that hatred and that disdain is a real sense of like insecurity that that one way or another good, bad or ugly, change is coming and

they're doing everything they can to sort of, you know, cut that off at the knees. I'm wondering if you guys have any thoughts on that. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's something that we are definitely seeing the campus repression over the course of the past few months. Actually, since October 7th, there have been a number of mobilizations on, you know, various campuses here in the Atlanta area, right? And specifically Georgia State, right? Like, there have been large marches and rallies talking about Gilly in

particular, right? Like, students understand this issue and are opposed to the program for the most part, right? And we're working, we're building with students to I guess for the strength in those efforts. But there's been a lot of repression in Atlanta

in relation to those protests and, you know, general you know, pro-Palestinian sentiment on, on campus. And so that's something that we're, we're reckoning what we're dealing with, right? Because, you know, repression is meant to, I guess, scare folks from, from, you know, wanting to participate in, you know, fighting back. And so that's, that's definitely an area for us. We've even seen aspects of, you know, militarized response to these campus protests, you know, everything from, you know, police,

about bringing out militarized gear as they, you know, try to intimidate folks who were taking the streets. You know, I guess that that kind of speaks to, you know, just the wide-ranging impacts of militarism, right? Like, they're willing to bring out, you know, things like tear gas to protest. And, you know, like we've seen tanks at certain protests here in Atlanta. We've seen, you know, the usage. We've heard about skunk gas. So I think that there is that That element of, you know, the U.S. police utilizing the weapons, the tools, the, you know, just the tactics that are used abroad, really. Like, when you think about tanks, right, you think about the occupations, the coups and the wars that, you know, the empire perpetrates against colonized people around the world. And those same, those same, I guess, tools are used to terrorize folks right here in the U.S.

and to quell our uprisings, right? And so I think it speaks to, you know, what is to come. And, you know, obviously we're seeing horrific images coming out of Palestine. And so I think, you know, it's all relative. But I think, you know, like you're saying, right, like that it is an attempt to stave off what is inevitable. Yes. Yeah. And I just wanted to add, I mean, you know, we've also seen repression specifically around Gilly as well.

In fact, the only reason we even know as much as we do about Gilly now is after years of independent journalists like Anna Simonton, who did a wonderful report for Manda Weiss a few years ago, and the Atlanta Community Press Collective, who has become one of the best and only independent media sources in the city. They're doing Freedom of Information Act. They're doing FOIA requests on the city of Atlanta in order to get information. information on Gilly. So even the fact that that supposed, you know, public safety professionals are engaged in a program through which we have to literally force the hand to get information about their operation. And we have to literally do FOIA requests. And there's been FOIA requests on Gilly going back just about 20 years. And I remember reading through a recent, stack of documents that the Atlanta Community Press Collective got back and they were, I recognized

one or two people's names who had signed on to a statement and a letter against Gilly and now the police were emailing and saying, have you seen this letter? And they're literally surveilling and talking about this through social media surveillance. And this is in their email exchanges. So again, we know a sliver through these FOIA requests that there is repression, at least in emails being talked about. So we can only imagine what's happening behind those doors. And then on top of that, you know, we have the 1033 program. Yes, that's where I was going to go next because I think Tunday was really, you know, kind of gesturing towards that, this militarization of the police and the programs are.

around it. So yeah, you can definitely go into that. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, you look at the Israeli occupying forces and the line between police and a military person and civilian, all three of these things are intentionally very blurred, right? I mean, what we're seeing right now is this exact same thing has been underway for several years, but it's being crystallized inside of like the 1033 program, Gilly and these. cop cities where U.S. police forces that have now been militarized to a certain extent, the line between military occupying force and quote-unquote police officer is certainly blurred when it comes to the 1033 program. And so basically what this is, and the Black

Alliance for peace, we have been demanding an end to the 1033 program immediately. It's basically the U.S. Department of Defense. They administer this program. And it transfers excess military equipment from the U.S. military, all branches of U.S. military, to U.S. local U.S. police forces, federal, state, and local. This is the FBI. This is the Atlanta Police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and everyone in between. So far, the program has set over $6 billion in military gear to local police departments across the country. And a lot of the really most notable, Examples of the 1033 program when people really started to wake up to it and be like, wait a second, you know, what's going on is Ferguson in 2014 when the first time, at least as it was being live tweeted and shown on air, where we had militarized tanks and armored vehicles and all kinds of and sound cannons, which they've used on us here in Atlanta since 2013. Can you now remember the earliest in Baltimore in response to the uprisings around Freddie Gray, the menace, you know, all of the times where we have seen this excessive, militarized gear that the police has. Every time we've seen them use, it has been on pretty much uprising, black, and indigenous people. Because if we recall, the same thing took place in Standing Rock. It was simply with a private security firm, right?

But the same exact thing. And so the 1033 program is a federal program that is literally the whole function is just to militarize the police. Barack Obama championed this program and then Trump champion this program and Biden champions the program. There's at no federal level or state level that I'm aware of even any consideration of challenging this law. And at a local level, this essentially intertwines with programs like Gilly or even like SWAT. You know, there's, people don't realize there's actually dozens of SWAT raids that are taking place primarily in black neighborhoods every single night. The numbers, when you look at the number of SWAT raids, they're taking place who also, you know, these are sort of, these are special weapons and tactical units. I believe it's an average of 124 a night SWAT raids taking place.

And of those, the vast majority are black neighborhoods where these are taking place. So this level of militarization and occupation is, I don't want to say it's like unimaginable and be super dramatic, but it is a heightened and new development and level of counterinsurgency by this capitalist state. And then one more thing, I wanted to, actually, never mind. I'm going to stop. I'm going to yield there and see if Tundi must have anything. Yeah, no, that was a great breakdown. I think, you know, as it relates to, you know, with the 1033 program, right?

Like, it allows these police departments to acquire these military weapons, this military equipment from the Pentagon. It, like, very discounted, like, dramatically discounted prices. So, you know, police support. farmers that are like claiming to need help fighting the war on drugs or something or like the war on domestic terror or whatever right like they are you know particularly encouraged to to partake in this program uh and you know we know that those wars are really created to further control incarcerate and and colonize um foreign working class people uh you know black and indigenous

people, right? So again, the Pentagon's weapons and tactic that they developed for their occupations and coups and wars on Africans and other colonized people around the world are used domestically to terrorize and control people here in the U.S., right? Oppressed people here in the U.S., right? And so, you know, the 1033 program has really been a primary mechanism for this, you know, increased reliance on their military option to repress people here in the U.S. I think it's something like $7.4 billion of military gear have been transferred to domestic agencies since the 1990s. And so I think when we say it's $6 million or $7.4 million, right that that that those are you know uh serious serious amounts right like that that kind of money

uh could be used to pay for health care for like 2.5 million kids for a year it could it could pay for like 108 000 infrastructure jobs so this is uh serious these are serious resources they're going towards uh this militarization um and you know as mussa spoke to like the swat raise right those are those are facilitated because you know all of these police departments have access to this type of this type of equipment right like they use grenades they use tear gas assault rifles armored vehicles and helicopters to terrorize and um you know sometimes kill folks during these swat raids uh a lot of raids are have typically been for like drug possession um and they're not not like active shooter situation so it's it's it's a it's a heightened response like it's an

unnecessary, you can say, response. Like, there have even been swat raids that have taken place for, like, underage drinking and, like, running a barbershop without a license. And so these swat rays are really a weapon against, against oppressed people here in the U.S. There was actually, more recently, like, you know, we've mentioned Tortugita, right, earlier, and how Tortugita kind of propelled the Stop Cop City movement into some limelight

about like a year ago, right? Tortquita was killed during a SWAT raid, right? In the Atlanta forest, the Wailani forest. Recently, there was a few swat raids that were used to arrest protesters here in South Atlanta who have engaged in the Cop City movement, right? And so I think they're a weapon of the state to suppress protests, but also just to terrorize. in the poor and oppressed communities, right? And so I think, you know, we, we see the 1033 program

as a, as an area that we need to struggle against, a program we need to end immediately. And, you know, we understand that the more, the more militarized the police are, the more civilians that they kill, right? And that, you know, the militarization of the police, right? We've talked about it is like a function of this imperialist, this system, right? And, you know, we understand that it was popularly used to crush the black liberation movement of the 60s and the 70s, right? Like, that was one of the first instances that, you know, we can point to as, you know, showing the usefulness of this strategy, this military option domestically.

And so, you know, we're seeing kind of new forms of that. today um but yeah that that that's intimately connected to this gilly struggle and and we weird you know intent on like making those connections and uh uh you know making sure people are clear on that as we as we fight uh to um you know and this program but you know more ultimately right like fight against imperialism fight to to end imperialism absolutely yeah incredibly well said and that's the thing cop city the gilly program the 1033 program they are as both of you have made incredibly clear and with extreme clarity they are deeply deeply connected issues and the militarization of the police's armaments comes with the militarization of their psychology police have always been

racist they've always upheld a racist and classist system especially in this country with their origins um you know as a slave catchers police have always been shit but in an in an ideal society or in the idea of like white liberals minds you know cops are supposed to be and for them they often are you know these is like providers of security to serve the serve the community etc you give them weapons of war you give them vehicles of war you train them with people who are at war against their uh you know colonized subjects like in the case of israel you train with them they develop a psychology that sees people that they are paid by those people their tax dollars are paid to protect them they then start seeing them as a sort of foreign enemy and all of this brutality uh can can easily

flow from that. I mean, we've had a few years ago, I remember the story of a SWAT team going in, I think it was over some stupid drug shit, throwing a flash bang grenade into a crib with the toddler. Brianna Taylor, right, the police kicked down her door, wasn't even the right house, came in, um, fire and I think her boyfriend tried to shoot back. Um, and Brianna Taylor was murdered by these fucking pigs and not a single one of them, um, you know, faced any accountability for that whatsoever. I remember horrific images from 2020 of, you know, these ostensical. non-lethal rounds like rubber bullets, blowing people's, you know, parts of their, their entire eyes out, you know, these white, these vans, disappearing people, pulling up and grabbing protesters, throwing them in, organizers dying under mysterious circumstances. I mean, this is not going to go away. This is all, you know, one process, one thing that needs to be combated with many different arms. And to, I believe it was Tunday, who was saying earlier about like, look at all the money we spend on this shit. This could go to actually solving the causes of so much problem like homelessness and crime by giving people housing making sure that

money goes to providing health care social programs you know good jobs with good wages you know unions for every worker but guess what that's not profitable what is profitable is having low wages what is profitable is private prisons what is profitable is the military industrial complex spending literally trillions and trillions of u.s. tax dollars to you know Iraq Afghanistan with seven trillion right there. The money we've given to Ukraine and Israel alone in this latest round of conflicts is enough to solve homelessness in the United States. Hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars going to these proxy wars and these conflicts instead of going here. And the average American, you know, not even very politically sophisticated, ask the question all the time,

regular people in my life. Like, shouldn't we spend this money on our own people? And of course we should but the but the joke is we don't own this system this is not our system it is not in our interests it is in the interest of the profiteers who own this entire society and there's no profit in making sure people are housed have health care have safe streets have good infrastructure you know have action on climate change it's not profitable to these companies and so they're going to use the police as this militarized fascist force of violence specifically on black and indigenous and brown and poor communities, multiracial poor communities,

if it comes to that. And that's what they've decided is going to be the future. And I think, you know, people often say that what Israel is doing to Palestine right now is in some sense a testing, testing ground for what's coming to communities around the world. Some communities like the black community,

the indigenous community in the U.S., they've lived under that forever. But I think more and more people are now being put into, they're being proletarianized, they're being pushed down the class. ladder. They're not allowed to, you know, not able to buy homes, not able to get an education without going in a lifelong debt, have no health care. More and more people are being put into, you know, the lower classes. And that means more and more control to keep them at bay. And I think, I think

that's precisely what we're seeing. And that's why all of these things need to be connected, as both of you have done brilliantly and need to be combated. And with that point, that last point in mind. Musa, go ahead. Yeah, I just wanted before, I don't know if we're about to close out or not, but I wanted to just hit on something that you kind of mentioned that I didn't get to earlier real briefly is Atlanta is known as a quote unquote black city. And it's even called the black mecca or the black gay mecca, the black mecca of the South. It's synonymous with blackness, whatever that means nowadays, civil rights, uh, or organizing activism. They used this legacy against us by employing what we call the Black

Misleadership class. Shout out to Glenn Ford from Black Gender Report. The Black Misleadership class or the Colonial Comprador class. And they have the local politicians in Atlanta who are pushing through Cop City, who championed Gilly and who actually spoke and honored Robbie Freeman at be 30th anniversary gilly celebration mayor andre dickens we are surrounded and inundated with and dominated by black faces doing the dealings of white capital and we have an entire black misleadership class who has been leading the charge ushering in cop city who have been running cover for and protecting and promoting gilly and the 1033 program and all of these things and it's very important to name that because if you turn on the TV, all you see is real housewives

of Atlanta. All you see is rappers from Atlanta. All you see as singers like Victoria Monet from Atlanta. And you hear about Atlanta ballplayers and quote unquote culture. And T.I. is buying back the block and Killer might want a Grammy. But on the ground, those of us who, those of us who live here in the city and in the state, our reality is completely what a hundred percent. different as workers from this black misleadership class. They are literally twerking and dancing on the dick for daddy's white dollars and pushing through Cop City as if they had a contest to see who can do it the fastest. And even last week, like, sorry, yeah, last month, last month on Valentine's Day,

we had houses of Stop Cop City and Anti-Gilly organizers. their houses were raided and it was executed by the Atlanta Police Apex Unit, so that's the Atlanta Police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, so that's state level, ATF, the alcohol, what is it, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. So that's a federal agency and the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So that means our local, quote unquote, black leadership in Atlanta teamed up with the white Republican at the governor national level or sorry state level

and then with the federal state to execute this repression of activists. So there's such a strong claim of it being a black mecca and this is a black city. Meanwhile, its black leadership is colluding with state

and federal agencies to further incarcerate its organizers. So I just really want to wanted to point that part out because you mentioned earlier about it being a black city and you're right on the money because they use that against us and they will point to civil rights icons and say, well, they never burned a police precinct down. You should be more like them or things like that. And they use that legacy against us to try to get us all in suits and ties instead of marching in the streets. Yeah, incredibly well said. And that Comprador analysis, I think, is spot on.

I mean, Phenon talks about that in the wretched of the earth. And if you take seriously as we do this idea that black folks in the U.S. are a colonized, you know, occupied nationality and oppressed nationality within the U.S. borders, then it absolutely is just, it's just logical that there's also this Comptor class. And you're right, that is who, that's the face that is presented to the rest of the country that represents Atlanta, like Killer Mike, T.I. in particular. But yeah, all the other figures you said as well, they are held up as the face of Atlanta. but you're right. There's these class distinctions that are always wrinkled over and completely ignored when such a thing occurs. So I think what you said is really important. Now, as we enter the end of this conversation, I want to give both of you room to say anything else that we might not have covered. I know we didn't exactly get to every single question on the list because the conversation became organic. But any last words and then also what listeners that are listening that understand what you've been saying and one who assist in any way. Maybe they live around a cop city. Maybe they live around a cop city. Maybe they live in Atlanta, maybe they don't, how they could possibly help or assist Black Alliance for Peace in their work. Yeah, I'll just add or share that, you know, Bab has a zone of peace campaign that we're building with key partner organizations throughout the America's region.

And really, we think of the Americas as broader than, you know, like, you know, central, South America Army. The Americas, we're referring to as like a New Western America, which is, you know, a term that Revolutionary Forces here have used to assert themselves against colonialism and imperialism by claiming one contiguous landmass stretching from Canada to Chile, right, for all of the historically oppressed people of the region, right? So we're working with formations throughout the Americas to activate really the popular movements in our region in support of the 2014 CELAC or community of Latin American and Caribbean states call to make the America's region a zone of peace, right? And so for us, right, that this campaign is informed by the black radical peace tradition, which, I, well, it's a, it's a key, I guess, principle for the Black Lines or Peace. And, you know, the Black Rattel of Peace tradition for us says that, you know, peace is not the absence of conflict, but rather the achievement by popular struggle and self-defense of a world liberated from the interlocking issues of global conflict, nuclear armament, and proliferation, unjust war, and subversion, really through the defeat of, you know, global systems,

impression of oppression, including colonialism, imperialism, patriarch, and white supremacy, right? So that is what is informing this campaign. And for us, we're, you know, elevating that that call for a zone of peace that came out of, you know, that CELAC meeting in 2014 in Cuba. And, you know, is focused on the structures and interests that generate, you know, war and state violence, right? the, the clonialism, the capitalism, patriarchy in all forms of imperialism, right? So our fight for zone of peace is an attempt to expel all of these nefarious forces

from the America's region. And so, you know, that means ending Gilead all the other exchange programs, right? Ending the 33 program, right? Like really addressing settler colonialism and capitalism in meaningful ways, right? And so that's what we're working to build with a number of different partner organizations.

If you go to the Black Lines for Peace.com, the website, right? There's a list of the formations that we're building with, everything. Organizations stretching from, you know, Molagov in Haiti to, you know, the Processor de Communidades Negros in Colombia, to, you know, ATN in Nicaragua,

and so many more, right? There's so many organizations we're building with on this campaign. And so I think it, It's just relevant to this work just because we're talking about how can folks, you know, build with Bab and in terms of the fight against, you know, Gilly and all these structures of, you know, imperialism and colonialism. So I wanted to mention that. But then I also want to say that locally in Atlanta, right, informed by like the zone of peace approach, BAP, Atlanta is working with local organizations and student and student organizations. organizations to develop the demilitarized Atlanta to Palestine Coalition, which has a primary emphasis on ending Gilly, right? That is our first objective and our primary objective at the moment, right? And so, you know, we're doing a lot of educational work on the campuses and, you know, we're building out strategies. We have some, you know, clear emphasis, emphasis and focus points for right now in terms of initial strategies.

But, you know, essentially the explicit purpose is to shut down Gilly. We're working with groups like Palestinian youth movement, you know, critical resistance, Palestinian feminist collective, you know, students for justice in Palestine chapters on some of the campuses specifically in Georgia State and, you know, Spelman Morehouse, etc. Well, the AUC, I should say, you know, projects out. So we're building with a lot of organizations here to develop a really focus and strategic campaign. and folks should really, if you're in Atlanta, you should really look into building with us on that.

And, you know, also, I guess, building with that, right? We have, you know, our programs and efforts locally that we're building out. And I think, you know, just if you want to connect with us, we have a solidarity network made up of non-black or non-African members. And then we have, you know, the black. an African member base that is working to address imperialism and all its forms and specifically its militaristic forms. So yeah, just want folks to check us out, connect with us on those things. Beautiful. Yeah, Musa, do you have anything to add to that? No, I mean, you know,

Sunday laid it all out. I was part of the small group with Sunday. He had a few others. We actually traveled from Atlanta, me and Sunday from Atlanta to Cuba. Havana last April 4th and launched the Zona Peace campaign and were able to elevate the movement of Stop Cop City, including information about Gilly, to the Cubans and to some influential activists and organizers in Cuba who expressed their solidarity, strongest solidarity with us. The funny, the first response, they were like, why are y'all letting this happen? What do you mean? like what they couldn't really even fathom something like that they were like what do you it's a military base in your backyard base you know they were uh shocked to say the least and i just would hope all the listeners can offer us the same kind of solidarity our cuban comrades unwaveringly have um and i also want people to check out like i said there is a we we we live under information warfare

and psychological propaganda and the cox foundation the Cox Corporation media conglomerate owns the majority of information coming out from this city, this state that I've lived in my whole life, basically. And so I really want people to check out the Atlanta Community Press Collective. They do really phenomenal independent reporting. They are one of our very few people, groups, collectives doing that work. There's also mainline zine, mainlined. a W to RFG, a local independent radio station, one of the few 100% non-commercial radio stations left in the Southeast, actually.

Check out my podcast groundings. I did an episode about Cop City. I've done an episode about Gilly and some other things. But most importantly, join an organization and organize. If you go to Is Your Life Better.net, they have a map of over 69, cop cities either proposed or already in the works of construction all across. It's in 50 states except for two. There's two states where there's no proposed cop city that's in the Midwest. But really understand that what we're trying to do here in Atlanta has international and national

implications. And if we're able to stop cop city here, if we're able to smash gilly and abolish gilly here, then that means it can be done. done elsewhere and it will and it should be done elsewhere because the police are exchanging with these Zionist pigs all across the country. So yeah, check out BAP if you're interested if you're an African listening. Check out BAP. You can join and become a member and get involved. We have regional structures across the country and we have local structures and regional structures actually. So yeah, check out BAP, Black Alainz for Peace. For us specifically, you can go to BAP Atlanta, BAP Atlanta on Instagram,

and we try to update it pretty frequently. And, you know, I think that's all I have. Peace. Wonderful. And I promise I will link to as much of that in the show notes as possible. People can easily find the organization, the Atlanta chapter, etc. I myself have been waiting to get paid so that I can join the Solidarity Network. So I'm going to make that happen this week because I just think what the Black Alliance for Peace is

doing is really, really incredible and important work. And, you know, I think everybody should support it in whatever capacity they can. And so if you're not of African descent, if you're not black, you can join the Solidarity Network and continue to support what they're doing. And if you're in an organization, you can, you know, your organization can link up and see how you can work with and help the Black Alliance for Peace in all of their work. So I'll link to as much of that as possible in the show notes. Thank you so much, Tunei. Thank you so much, Musa, for coming on for the amazing work that both of you do. I really am so honored to be able to platform both of you and to bring more attention to your wonderful, wonderful work. And you always have

a home here at Revliff. That goes without saying. All right. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having us. Appreciate this. First, what is a revolution? Sometimes I'm inclined to believe that many of our people are using this word revolution loosely without taking careful consideration what this word actually means when you study the historic nature of revolutions the motive of a revolution the objective of a revolution and the result of a revolution and the methods used in a revolution The only revolution in which the gold is a desegregated bloodshould. If it's wrong to be violent,

defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, land is the basis of all independents. The black revolution is sweeping Asian, sweeping after. It's rearing its head in Latin America. Then is the pieces of freedom, justice, and equality. They overturned the system.