Rev Left Radio - On Alcoholism: Addiction, Relapse, & Recovery

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

David Icenogle joins Breht to discuss his long struggle with alcoholism as well as his long and rocky road to sobriety and recovery. Together, they touch on many different aspects of addiction, the specific struggle with alcoholism, the difficulties of getting and staying sober, the psychology of addiction, the nuances of AA, how relapses happen and how to avoid them, the brutal impact of addiction on family and friends, and so, so much more. David is an incredibly - and darkly - funny, down to earth, and insightful human being, and his experiences will no doubt resonate deeply with anyone who has struggled with addictions of any type. Check out and subscribe to "NO CHASER" with David Icenogle here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrmDFdoZQU0CgAZm67Do4BQ Outro Music: "Pour Me Another" by Atmosphere ----- Support Rev Left Radio: https://www.patreon.com/RevLeftRadio or make a one time donation: PayPal.me/revleft LEARN MORE ABOUT REV LEFT RADIO: www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. On today's episode, I have my longtime friend David Isanagel on the show to discuss his struggles with trials and tribulations regarding his own struggle with alcoholism and addiction more broadly. We cover so much ground with regards to addiction in this episode. We really try to cover as many aspects of addiction. of addiction and alcoholism as possible, as well as learn David's personal story, which is daunting, to say the least. But, you know, even though this is a very serious topic and a very difficult, challenging topic, and it hits so close to many of us and our lives, Dave is also a hilarious dude, and he always has been. And so throughout this very serious conversation,

he infuses it with his uniquely dark humor. So although this episode, is very serious and you know even heartbreaking at certain points there's also this this comedic relief that he weaves into this episode that just makes it really fucking good really engaging and makes him incredibly endearing and he also has a youtube channel called no chaser in which he explores these these different elements of addiction and alcoholism even more closely and even in more depth and i'll link to that in the show notes as well so this is my conversation with a long time friend. We met when we were freshmen. The beginning of this episode is sort of us reflecting on some of the crazy times that we had together as teenagers. And then it moves into this broader

discussion of alcoholism and addiction and everything that goes with it. So this is a timely and important episode with a very good friend and somebody who's been through the shit in every imaginable way. So without further ado, here is my conversation with my longtime friend, David I snuggle on alcoholism and addiction. I'm David Isknoggle. I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I do some freelance writing. I've written for Passenger's Journal, Asylum Magazine, as being ungainfully employed in that respect.

I'm painfully employed at a boring office job, that's soul-crushing. But I just want to talk about what the experience is and what goes on in the mind of an alcoholic and addict. Absolutely. Well, welcome to the show, and you and I go way the fuck back. I think we go back further than me and any other guests that I've ever had on the show. Do you remember when or how we met? Yeah, so I don't remember the exact moment. I hope that doesn't offend you. It does. We're going. Okay. No, I remember it was just through a couple of friends, and we just played like basketball. It started out on, and then, you know, we're like... Be pantsing each other a lot? Yeah, yeah. It was... I could talk.

I totally see how your intellectual, political discourse started with us making fun of each other for not being able to grow beards and having important conversations of what Super Smash Brother character we were. I really see how it informed what you became today. I'm a Luigi. Yeah, that's, yeah. You tag a lot of your podcast with that line. Every time, yeah. Excellent, cool. That's super professional.

Yeah, you know, one thing real quick, I don't know if you remember this. It's actually related to this. one of the, and we'll probably get into discussing it, but like one of my first, like, big moments where I'd say like the point where I got addicted, like a lot of alcoholics and addicts would describe a sort of aha moment. Now, you would probably think the aha moment is realizing, oh, my life is terrible. I'm addicted. It's actually the, the aha moment is kind of the psychological shift from that first real high or drunk. Like in the sense of, you know, you hear people talking about chasing the dragon, like, that first high, I really had that experience, I don't know if you remember it, at your house. I had, um, because I, I had drank and like smoked weed and stuff, you know, from like 13, but they were, you know, that's the thing too about that aha moment. It's not necessarily the first time you get drunk or get high. There's just a certain point where something goes off in your head. And so I had done

that before, but I had really started out with, um, you know, alcohol. Hall was the main thing I did, but I really started out with, you know, pain pills. And I mean, you could say that when it comes to chemical dependency, I have dual citizenship, you know, but I remember I, it was a, you know, it started as like the, the classic American love story, boy meets doctor, doctor overprescribes opiates, boy falls in love with them and lives unhappily ever after. I had just picked up a bottle of Vicodin from this like the mouth surgery. I mean, it was really, I thought it was my wisdom teeth,

but actually my teeth were so young, it was just other teeth. It was like, I don't remember that when your face, you came over and your face was all swollen? Exactly. Here's what, I don't know if you, remember, it was so stupid. I don't know if I thought it was being funny. I had the notepad because I couldn't talk. And I was almost like, maybe I should still play basketball,

but I knew like one of her friends would, like, elbow me in the face, just, like, teeth would fall out. But I remember that moment, I had just popped some, and I, on the, driving on the way there, you know, because it doesn't say don't operate heavy machinery. but they're talking about like forklifts and stuff right you know not like your car um but i got over there and i was just like you know i was in a time in my life too where things were externally great but i i had um you know i'd suffered from depression since i was in sixth grade

and i just got into one of those big funks and i you know some of that depression was of course being friends with you but um i i i i popped them on the way there and i got there and i was just sitting i remember it so clearly i was sitting and just watching you guys play basketball and I had my little notepad and I remember almost wanting to write I feel happy it was this huge and you know if I had the the capability for self-awareness that no 15 year old would have or a lot of people don't I would I should have seen this as a problem that aha moment was I want to feel like this for the rest of my life I want to do this every day and that's

I mean that should be scary the fact that like a lot of people have that naturally where they start doing something they find their passion or they find a community that they feel like accepted in finally and it just it's a huge change in your life it should be scary for the fact that I just ingested a chemical and this is how I feel about my life now and I remember I felt that there was the first time really got high and I was just totally enjoying myself and that's where like it was a real this is not normal or good you shouldn't ingest a chemical and be like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life like it was this tectonic shift in my priorities and everything I had and what I wanted to do just completely

took a back seat to this new thing. I mean, they were still kind of important, but at the end of the day, it's like, man, if I could, I could feel, like, it's very depressing to think that I thought this is the first time I've been happy in a long time. And it's not based on meeting someone that I fell in love with having a child, you know, getting this job, finally getting, you know, connected with people that, you know, know who I am and accept me. No, it was just in. gesting a chemical and I was like this is a game changer yeah wow I do remember that that day and then we know we're all joking about it and stuff and you were in a good mood even though your face was all swollen exactly it's like the at a moment where you think I'd be extra like

crabby or not feeling well I fell happy so basically what I'm really trying to say is the destruction of the last 15 years of my life is your fault just I don't know if you were getting that yet I had no clue I'm so fucking sorry it is funny in a sense that's really that's So interesting. Yeah, I had that quote-unquote aha moment. So me and you, I do remember specifically, I think we met in Ms. Stein's Spanish class freshman year of high school. I think that's when I met you and Jones. Laughing.

And then the next several years of our life was us doing drugs, doing other crazy shit, playing a lot of basketball, de-pantsing each other a lot. Yes. And what else did we do? Oh, we made music. Yeah, I didn't know you were going to bring that out. We used to rap when we were teenagers. I think we had one fan on MySpace, which we still remember and love. Yeah, it shouts out to Russian bot 442.

Yeah, no, see, the good thing is that I became a drug and an alcoholic, so I had reasons to do those things. You did those mainly soberly, which is very... Just somehow worse. Yeah, very upsetting that. You accepted those things with a natural mind. There is one thing that the audience on Rev left, most of them, especially longtime listeners, are aware of, which is this mushroom experience I had. My first one ever at 16, remember Joe and me got a quarter of mushrooms,

and he kind of wussied out at the last moment. So I took a full quarter. I remember when I fell in the grass and the parking lot of that movie theater? Yes, yeah. Well, and remember, you know what's funny is that you, if you remember, we did it before because me and you did it together. But that one was I probably wouldn't think it would be the most enlightening experience being that we got into a car accident during it.

And the funny thing is... Total both cars. Which is... You were driving one, I was driving the other. I was not driving one. Jones was driving your car. I had a designated driver. I did this smart thing to do, and he was just like...

Crashed into you. I'm just like... Dude. And what was so funny, though, again, was the... Like, you... I think you really took it as like, let's, you know, expand my mind, a new experience. At that point, I, like, it was hard to get pills, and I was just like, I'm... I feel depressed, hopefully.

I literally, I thought it was like... Mushrooms just is like more weed, right? I had no idea it had like psychedelic effects or anything like that. Like I don't want to get too much of the story, but I remember that night just for the fact of like everything was. And you know what's funny? I actually can use a sort of comparison to that moment of what I felt like on mushrooms in terms of craving. Like when you feel like craving to drink or use like in new sobriety or something. I'm sorry if this is going on.

all over the place, but it's kind of apropos. I remember, you know, when I was, when I was high on mushrooms, one of the big things that was, like, made it into a bad trip, besides the car accident. Totally of both our vehicles. Yeah, that's... The cops coming, and our parents haven't... A lot of hippies don't recommend totaling your cars in public with police coming.

But, no, I remember this feeling of, oh, no, I think I broke my brain. Like, I was getting, you know, an altered state and not even hallucinating, but just having that difference of reality. And it was interesting. But then my stupid mind chimed in and said, oh, no, what if it's going to be like this forever? What if you broke your brain? And basically it was this feeling of, based on nothing, but that I'm just going to feel like this forever. And it was just like, this won't go away.

And I use that as an example to liken to craving sometimes, where it's just this very intense moment of obsession and compulsion. And in that time frame, you, your mind. you're like this this is what I want to do and I you have such a strong urge and it's this is not going to go away it's going to be like this I'm not going to get out of this craving until I do something and it's so funny sometimes when you when you surpass it when you when you get past that you look back maybe three hours later and you're like oh my god I would have just totally fucked everything up if I did that like how crazy it is that I thought I need to do that and the even crazier thing is that you know maybe a day later you're like no no no it was right

to do it. I do need to drink again. Like, your mind just, it is an unreliable narrator to the things you want to do. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I don't want to linger on this too much. We should have you back and just do like a Patreon episode where we just talk about all the shit we did. I think so. Because it is so fun to talk about. But I just, I just have to mention that, well, in the movie theater, mystical experience where I had the subject, object, collapse, which I didn't even have the language at the time to talk about. But I've told the story many times, And I always say, you know, after a few moments of, like, ecstasy laying in the grass, feeling the stars rain into me, my friends ripped me up out of the grass because I was making a scene, took me back to the van. And you were one of the friends that ripped my ass up out of the grass and said, hey, we got to get in here.

The cops are going to come because you're, like, having an orgasm in the grass. Families are walking by you to their movie theater. You literally look like, well, you know what's funny, too. I have to get, like, too, in deep about this. But it's funny if you compare and contrast that experience that you have, which with, with, the one I was having to where my mindset changed when I got like that opiate

high that first time and felt like everything was like with true happiness and you guys were just around me. I was like oh that's cool. David's in a better mood which would eventually be just a a shift in the mind that would plague me for years and years and basically the rest of my life and you were having a

positive one and we were like no you got to stop that shit. Cut that shit out whatever. I think we're both of it. You are at my fault for my chemical dependency issues and I'm at your fault for not transcending into self-actually so. And I just have to say we're even. I just have to say we're even. I just have to say

up front, Dave is joking about me being the cause of his addiction. I cannot bear that burden. I refuse to carry that particular cross. It seriously his fault. Okay. Last thing I want to say about these goddamn drugs we used to do together. Yeah. The car crash situation

where high on mushrooms, both our cars are utterly totaled. Two of our friends take off, quickly apprehended by the police. But we also had uh we had the ingredients to make napalm in the car because a dude was beefing with me about a girl and so part of this trip was we do mushrooms we're 16 do mushrooms get in the car drive to this guy's house set his car on fire with napalm and then come back then have the rest the night i guess is having fun um but we got in the car accident before we got a napalm this kid's car in a way it might have saved us from god knows what we probably be in jail

right now for arson the napalm would have caught the nearest house on fire it was truly a choose your own adventure of utter craziness like wild shit but okay that's for a patreon episode for those interested in uh our reminuses i'm almost more about that suffice it to say you and i go way back we've had crucial fundamental life experiences together good bad and ugly fights together like on the same side always uh meeting dudes up in parking lots where they're ripping our shirts Donnie and you Get the napalm We would vandalize houses and shit

Really bad unfortunately But you know we apologize for all that Allegedly Just crazy teen shit But anyway we've been very good friends For a very long time There were periods in our 20s Where I think we drifted apart

And I was actually not You know fully aware of how deep You know your struggles with alcohol were Because I think during a lot of that depth You know we were kind of doing our own things In our own lives You know how it is with friends As you sort of grow older

you ebb and flow with your relationship. But recently, we've gotten sort of more and more back into contact. We've been fishing together. We've talked together. And, you know, you went through a brutal process with your alcoholism. And, you know, I just lost my dad a few months ago to alcoholism. I have multiple alcoholics in my family to this day. And I know a lot of people out there listening, either themselves struggle with alcohol

or some other substance abuse disorder or certainly have somebody in their family. their family or friend circles who do as well. So I really want to, you know, talk about your experiences, gain some insight from what you went through. And hopefully some of this can resonate with and perhaps even help somebody listening. So I guess let's just go ahead and get into it with the first question, which is, you know, how and why did you get into drinking originally? We talked a little bit about that first opiate high and you're like, oh, wow, chemicals are my thing. But how did the drinking in particular start? And when did you start to realize? it was a problem right so it's it's interesting that like it started with um you know pain

pills and then just as it always happens you know move up to like morphine ox condolata and stuff like that they you know honestly not anything on me but i just glad i wasn't really in the fentanyl era that we are now like truly i i had multiple friends that or at least acquaintances people in my circle that had died from that and you know it's just crazy to think about but we had a mutual friend that died from opiate overdose oh yeah yeah like yeah and that's just us like there was the other you know the little cast of nairdwells that i was a part of too that you know many it's it's crazy but um you know i i started with that and i was really so what happened was that you know i was with other friends that or had the same pursuit i had

you know to get pills but the thing was is that they were very expensive and it was hard to get somebody reliable to to get them from on a regular basis without being crazily overpriced every once in a while we'd find a connect like that so what was kind of happening was we had like our little drug side of things but we'd also drink but that was like kind of considered normal and a lot of times drinking was like plan B and so it was just seen as kind of like more partying stuff and I did really like drinking I just kind of like preferred you know the the high of opiates at the time And the way things kind of, you know, went about was that with drinking in there as well, it was so funny that just the societal perspective on drugs compared to alcohol, like drugs, that was a real problem.

Like, that was what was I doing with my life, you know? Again, what's hilarious is that really the, like, when I was, when I, you know, was doing pills, I basically just like smoke cigarettes and watch. reruns of the office. But when I was drinking, like I was, you know, starting stuff or getting into fights or just driving, you know, or like trying to, you know, meet with girls and like all this actual dangerous behavior. But that was actually the better one in my mind. It was truly the opiates I had to worry about. And the first time I went to treatment, it was just, it was for opiates. Like, I didn't even talk about alcohol, even though literally every time I drank, I got drunk and I did something. A lot of times it was opiates, but I was always, again, the importance was

the altered stick. Were you mixing alcohol in opiates? Yes. I was doing that too because again, like it's just, it's a, it's just this process of just getting what you need purely. So I was like with money and what I was able to afford what we were able to get, like it wouldn't be enough of a high. So I would drink with that too.

And then where it was really crazy is that I started going to a methadone clinic. And I was like, I'm going to get off. off opiates and then I was what age were you just to be clear at this time roughly when oh yeah at this time I was um I was like 18 um going to the methadone clinic yeah I was just able to you know and I I also knew that I had problems with drinking just from the the way I drank and I really didn't uh something that was seen as a blessing but actually a curse is is that I got along with with people well when I was drinking I was never like an angry drunk it was like fun to be around so like I didn't really cause any problems really

and so it wasn't seen as bad but it was really I had to stop the drugs but like I knew I drank a lot but again when compared to the drugs didn't seem as bad as a problem so I was going to a methadone clinic and I was doing that to get off you know the I mean

to be honest though I really didn't have a plan like I was just like this is cheap and it will just kind of sustain me and just the whole drug world and everything, I need to get away from that. And I need to do something just to appease people around me and have some sort of like semblance of like normalcy in my life. And then I just kind of, you know, you're on with your tolerance and everything,

just on methadone, it was just truly normal, like feeling. So I just was drinking. And I almost forgot that it's like, dude, you're taking like 80 milligrams of methadone a day and you're trying to drink more and more. And I would just totally like, forget that methadone is in my system constantly. it was like taking a multivitamin and I started like it was a wild time because I started having like this almost sort of like chemical narcolepsy where I would just be drinking and you know it would just be like lights out sometimes like you would black out or you'd pass out I would I would straight up pass out like I it wasn't you know I every every tolerance was going up you know with the with the alcohol as well so I was just drinking a little bit more and more and you know it's point the body's like, dude, we got too much in our system. It's time to, and it wasn't like daily or anything, but it would just happen. There was one time I remember I, I just, I got off

work from my sad little job and I went to my sad little apartment and I just had a, a sad little meal, the saddest of all meals, the stofer's for one lasagna. And I just was eating it. This was at like eight o'clock at night. I wasn't tired at all. And I, a moment later, I just woke up. like choking on lasagna because I just almost comically face planted into it and I got up and it was I would been there so long into the lasagna to just again the lasagna that it actually like the tomato sauce crusted on my face and eyebrows I looked in the mirror and I was just like this is your life day picking these pieces out and it was just kind of like hey like you just passed out you fell face first into the lasagna mid bite and

And, you know, which I don't know if that's a promotion for Stoufers or not, but we'll certainly get at me if you want. They're not going to do that. Like literally, if the, I could have, like, died from it. It's seen as, like, super silly, which it is, but it was that level of passing out. And, like, if the coroner came by, he could have ruled it, like, death by lasagna. Like, that's where my life was that. But so in this sense, I, what happened was, is that I, I actually, I had a suicide attempt.

and this is something I want to be, to touch on to be candid about. You know, I would call it a coin flip suicide attempt. I was still a little bit scared of death, but I just, you know, my life was just in ruins. I was more so about the damage you would do to other people, but I just didn't know what to do. So I had saved up a bunch of the methadone over a couple of days, and I got really drunk and I took it all at once. And I was actually in my car outside my apartment because I was sharing it with my girlfriend at the time and I didn't want to find my body.

But I still knew that there was a chance that I'd survive. It was this weird. I call it a coin flip because I knew for sure what could kill me for sure. And I just still wasn't. And the reason I bring that up is because I think a lot of, not even alcoholics, a lot of people do that. And there's this phrase, you know, a cry for help. And it's very interesting that it's the sense of,

of a, when people call it that, it's a kind of a demeaning thing at times, you know. It's like, oh, it sounds like it was a cry for help. You tried to kill yourself like seven times to cry for help. And, you know, I take that on as why isn't that scene as serious as it is? You know, like some people almost kind of roll their eyes at it, but it's like this idea that if you're willing to put yourself in bodily harm because you are so, you're in so much turmoil inside and you don't know how to express it and you don't want what to do, that should be taken just as seriously. I mean, it should, and the reason I bring that up is because a lot of times it's like, yeah, I tried to kill myself.

But I was just like being, if I'm being totally honest, I was like, I don't know if I would kill myself. But in my mind, I was just like, maybe that doesn't have the gravitas of seriousness. And I'm just in my mind, I'm like, fuck that. It should be taken seriously. I used to, you know, I used to think those things too. I was just like, what, you tried to overdose eight times? Like, you didn't take the whole bottle. What were you saving him for someone else?

Why not just take the whole bottle? and I almost had this very mean, callous idea of it where all of a sudden I didn't take it as seriously because it wasn't to the fullest extent because it wasn't a gun to their head and the gun jammed. It was like, you know, but... So that was like a side point I wanted to make.

But at that point, I had, you know, when the cops found me and resuscitated when I woke up, they... Well, they weren't too bad. They did end up giving me a DUI. Very nice to them. It was because this was before I had... had now you're in the car though in a parking lot yeah yeah and here's what's funny i didn't have a

smartphone um and at the believe me smartphones were around at the time i think it was like um i was 22 at the time this was back in like 2013 um and so i just had like the radio and it was just like uh you know just like art bell or something yeah yeah something like that or maybe yes man whatever but um it was just to listen to something so my car my keys were just clicked in just to the level to listen to something. And so, yeah, that was a DUI. But anyways, when that when I was in the hospital, they were like, we're going

to get you off. You're not going to take methadone. So I had to go through alcohol and opiate withdrawals. At the same time. Which, I'm not recommended. But from that point, though, it was seen as like a total clean slate, like a

purge myself of all this stuff. Because you've detoxed, you've withdrawn, you're beyond that. And it's it was like a, you know, my family became more aware of where I was at for how dire the situation was. And I had a jump start with the court system because now I was going to be on probation and everything like that. And the opiates were basically done from that point. But, you know, it's funny if I'd go back to myself and be like, all right, the drugs are done, you know, and that was a bad part of my life. In future day, we'd be like, no, no, no, no.

We're just getting started, man. This is the prelude. Dude, because this is, this is 2022, right? Yeah, I've been sober for just over a year. Yeah, we should say that. We should say you've been sober now for over a year. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it was just, it was only just buckle up. And so from that point on, I had, I was in this sense of like, yeah, I need to, I need to quit and stay off this.

But eventually it just started back up drinking. And the way, like, in terms of like when I knew it was a problem, you know, it was infused with drugs. So it was kind of like, those are the real problem. But it was like, I'm also now I'm just, I'm taking methanol. I'm just, I'm an alcoholic too. Like this is no longer hiding in the ball. Like, it doesn't matter. You have to quit any sort of substance or anything.

And the thing was is that with like progression of your drinking habits and how things happen, it's not you know it's funny there's not like these conscious decisions that you make where you just go oh man okay I'm doing this now I'm crossing this line I'm gonna start drinking in the morning or I'm gonna day drink or drink alone or I'm gonna drink you know break at work or at work like it's not like I'm doing this now

it's kind of this way you get like inoculated into these sort of habits just from these like spur of the moment things you do to where like I remember the first time I was like I drank a loan I drank a loan and I didn't think anything of it was because I was actually going to go out with my friends later

but I was like the bar is too expensive and you know I don't know like I saved some money and whatever and so I just started pre-gaming as one would call it and they were like oh we're not going or it's too late or I'm just you know too I'm probably I can't drive now

and no one's picking me up but I'll just keep drinking and I was just like oh this is a kind of relaxing night that's totally fine and so there's no reason to not do that again and then you know as far as like drinking the morning i you know woke up one day and i was just super hungover and i was just like well last night was crazy and adville i don't think it's going to take care of this but i have a few nips in the bottle left over here just i'll take a couple of those it wasn't like no what am i doing

it was just like kind of do that and then same thing like drinking like break at work i was just like dude the day is just i'm just let me grab a couple of shooters i've seen how people do it before like this is you know where it like really like started to come upon me of like things are going bad was actually some of the more moral failings I was doing in terms of what you'd say outside interference so like when I had to like start lying or hiding stuff I mean this might just be my experience but at the time I didn't I didn't think it was that bad that I was doing some of these alcoholic habits like drinking alone or or, you know, drinking on break from work or just the amount. Like, I knew it wasn't great, but I didn't think of it as that bad if I just, if it was no consequence to, to others. It was when I had to start, like, lying. And you have these quiet moments to yourself when you're doing something sneaky

or, like, for me, like, you know, taking what's left in the vodka bottle and putting it into a water bottle and then, like, hiding it before your girlfriend comes home. And you put it all the way at the bottom of the trash, because God forbid she digs through like the sappy cans of soup and the salad you threw in there and the pizza box. God forbid. So you got to put it all way at the bottom. Only to lift it up, you could see the bottle hanging from the bottom

and clanking against the counter. But, you know, those quiet moments of yourself when you're like sneaking and doing stuff, that's when you become, at least that's when I became a little bit more self-reflective. I'm like, oh, this isn't great. Like, and just having to start doing these lies or having to, having to lie. about like when I'm going to be able to come over

or hang out because I just got off work but I need to get my drinks in and stuff. It was a lot of those things. I think maybe it was like less of a self, less of, I don't know, self interest in my own health and well-being. I was just fine. I didn't think it was too bad of a problem even though they were like clearly alcoholic behaviors.

It was more so I was like man, I was an honest person. I'm like lying literally all the time now. And it was funny too because in my mind at some point too, I had like two sets of categories. of lies. I had like bad lies. Like I'm being a dishonest person. Then I had like

to keep things up lies. Like the lie like maintenance lies. Right, right. It's not bad to lie that I was you know, I had to do this because I have to drink and I don't, it's not nothing against them. I just got to do what I got to do. It's bad if I like lie about, you know, what I feel about a person or what I did or what I was doing

last night or something like that. But like these are just to keep up the alcoholism thing. I mean, it's your fault that you'd be mad at me for this. So now you've created this burden upon me to start lying and stuff. but there was a little bit of that but also again like the hiding in it and it it all escalates to where again it's not these like very pinpoint choices you make to to escalate your life you just you make them in accordance to where you know it's taking you and it doesn't you know it's kind of in a way it's like when people get like radicalized on like YouTube or something where maybe someone doesn't like go forth and seek out you know maybe white nationalism good or maybe, you know, the government is turning the frogs gay. They don't search that video, but like the algorithm gets it to it.

In a way, it's kind of like that where you start out with one thing, and then just the momentum kind of carries it to you. And the thing I think I could say pretty confidently with like addiction and alcoholism is that once you fly first class, you don't go back to coach. In a sense, reverse that, though, because by going to first class, I mean, doing shittier and shittier things. Once you get in the garbage can, you don't get back out. Exactly.

Like once you start drinking like in the morning, you don't do it like immediately after that. But it set a new paradigm in your mind of like this is maybe not acceptable to do, but I got to start doing this now. Like these, there is these moments of escalation and they don't come back. Like the addiction toothpaste is out of the tube. You don't put it back in at a certain point. Like it will, you can in times of even if you've had a good amount of like sobriety, You can pick off, pick back up with me. I'll just have a couple of beers or something like that.

Pretty quickly you just go back to what you're doing and then the progression continues. Like you're swept up in a river that has a momentum of its own. Right, right. Or you're just drinking a river of vodka and your life sucks. We've done too many metaphors and analogies. I know, this is crazy. Just speak normally. But so, yeah.

All right. Well, now that we have an idea. Well, I guess before I'm moving into this, that question, just to be very clear, I think people can use the context clues to get this. But they're different types of drunk. Some people would drink wine. My dad would drink, you know, high-powered beers all day and all night. So what exactly were you drinking? Oh, man.

It was straight, like vodka, cheap vodka. Like, there was no pretense to me. I can't remember the last time I drank vodka that came in a glass bottle. Oh, shit. To put it in perspective. You're talking McCormick. Oh, yeah, yeah. The classics, man.

The stuff where, you know, it's funny. It'll say shatterproof on it. should say shatterproof but not your life this shit specifically justice model it's so fun which you will inevitably draw multiple times it's hilarious that they'll have like a thing like drink responsibly it's like dude it's a nine dollar like handle

of vodka like the only thing you should have is like the suicide hotline never on it like drink responsibly nothing is responsible about any of this like look at this thing it's in like Russian but it's made in China and it's sold in like a Hispanic gas station like this is

yeah and And so it was, it was really, like, in a sense, there was no, like, I had my college days of partying, but some people, the way they drink is really from maybe a culture it's infected by, or the people. Mine was, it was really, I drank like a crack addict in the sense that it had no real connection to, to things around me. Like, if I could drink with, like, other people, there was some sort of event for that, that'd be fine, but, like, it was all about just doing that. And eventually it became isolating enough where that's all it was. It was so many times it was on my way to work, just have the bottle, pour something into the water bottle and get a diet mountain do something as a chaser and be upon your day. It wasn't even, you know, it was just this clear liquid that was just infused in my life. And, you know, in terms of talking like types of drinkers, I would almost say like there is, the types of drinkers, I think can be more predicate.

on the the habits of drinking so like I know that there is a lot of alcoholics to where they would never drink in the day and never drink at work but they they come home after work and they they get blasted mine my experience it wasn't like that it was more of like a morphine drip where I would just take nips of the the Desani water bottle like every day or not every so at moments throughout the whole entire day Like I said, at work, just chock full of, you know, breathmints and spray and stuff like, just this crazy system to keep it going. But it was just, it wasn't about like getting, you know, wasted, which for a lot of alcoholics, that's, that is the thing.

It's the fun of like going from zero to a hundred. Mine was more about just keeping that buzz feeling throughout the day. All day long. And, yeah, it's funny. Alcoholics can, they can, you know, their trajectory of their drinking can vary a lot too. there's a lot of there's a lot of these wine drugs like you mentioned wine like a lot of women that just in later in life they really start their their alcoholic career if you want to call it that um there's people that you know in that they never drank in high school or anything like that they for some crazy reason waited for the legal age of drinking um and then they start in college and it goes out from there or some people you know drinking's always been a big part of their life and then when they get a little bit more isolated in what they're doing, even if they have like their own family or something,

but they're just, they're not so much surrounded by people like maybe that they were when they were younger, the drinking will start to kick off more than that. But there's different habits of people. Some people, you know, it blurs the line between the idea of like a problem drinker or an alcoholic

where they don't really, they don't have a lot of that same sort of the habits or behaviors of some alcoholics or what you would, you consider alcoholism. Like, maybe they drink three times a week, which is, you know, above normal. But they, they always, always get very, very drunk. I see. And they, and the thing is, too, they will continue drinking even in the face of, like, consequences. So they may not be doing it every day, you know.

A lot of people, you know, there's like the idea of, like, Skid Row drunks. That's what a drunk looks like. and there's a crazy amount of, you know, what do you want to call functional alcoholics or, or, excuse me, or things like that, you know, it's, it's really dark, but there's times, you know, I've been to treatment with a lot of people. And for some ungodly reason, there's always friend requests. I'm like, hey, we met when our lives sucked. Let's be friends on Facebook. And it's sad. Again, this is kind of dark, but there's a, I've acquired, I've been to treatment.

five times and I've acquired a lot of friends um from that and I know unfortunately a lot of them are back in active addiction or drinking just like I was and it's so funny I can know that because I still correspond with some of them and you see their lives because Facebook you know it's kind of bullshit anyway like it's the highlight reel of your life no one's just like hey I'm going through a really tough divorce also here's pasta I made like you know but it's it's even crazier to see the the life of someone who you know is like acting Not maybe an alcoholic, like actively struggling or actively a meth addict. And they're just going about their life, posting about taking their kids to soccer games, you know,

meeting the people for Thanksgiving. Like, what do you think about, you know, what are teams doing this week? Or, hey, should I get into, what would you recommend for like this dog groomer place or just this normal life? But you know, you see past like the pictures and the profile pictures. And from, you know, talking with them or knowing about their lives, you know, kind of through other people, are worried that they're like dying straight up there's one person i knew that it was just almost eerie where he was posting this stuff with his three kids and it just life looked like it was going great and everything like that and he was dying of liver failure at like 32 and he could not

stop drinking and so like the the types of alcoholics the idea of like what an alcoholic look like you know it is a it is something that is not easily seen in unless you are like at least have some sort of like deeper connection in their life unless you can see truly the day to day things like you can't look at like resumes and be like well that person was clear that an alcoholic or an addict like a lot of times it's totally you can be like you can see like the lapses and work or something but you could see a bunch of sterling resumes resumes or like they're doing all this stuff in their life and it's like yeah but their life is a mis miserable slog in between all of it. Right. And so, you know, it's really just about what it does to your life, then about the modes of how you partake in it. I see. I see.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and resonates with my experience, with alcoholics and my family as well. They all are very different in what they drink, in their patterns of drinking, and their levels of functionality with regards to their drinking. But, yeah, all of them are more or less equally fully immersed in a hardcore alcohol addiction. well I know you've talked about some of this stuff but maybe you can just talk kind of about the summary of your experiences over the next several years like we're in our early 30s right now you're talking about some of this stuff happening in your early 20s and intensifying through your mid 20s so kind of talk about how long this whole thing happened and mention some of your your lowest points or even your relapses you've mentioned that you went to rehab five times and I assume four of those times were failures so yeah all five are failures but I can have

I can be, I can, go ahead. It's like they have the little punch cards, though. Like, you know, the fifth one's free if you fucking destroy your life again. But so the thing was, was that, again, it was the perspective of it was just weird because it was first start out with, like, drugs. And then there is like these crazier moments or these real lows or, you know, something like that, like times where I got like DUIs. And, you know, I have this idea about, you know, hitting, like, rock bottom. and there's this sense that rock bottom is when your life has come crashing down like it's all falling apart now it's all like this is it came to this and to me at least in my perspective is that

rock bottom isn't about this this event that happens it's really just something that reveals what your life is like you're i didn't need to get a DUI and go to jail to know that my life sucked ass. Like, my life was already terrible. I just happened to have a headlight out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't, like, when I, you know, someone left me, because they just

couldn't put up with it anymore. It wasn't because that day I got drunk and, like, you know, erased the DVR of the shows they wanted to watch or something. It was just the grind of it over time. Like, these things, these kind of consequences that occur, they can, certainly they can be jumping off points and they can be, like,

they're more of like the big milestones of bad things that have, you know, that have happened. And it's like, now this is a push to really do something about it. But, you know, whenever I talk about like rock bottoms or these low points or, you know, I would say that there is a lot of reasons, you know, people say, you know, think about like not getting DUIs or in legal trouble for possession and think about not going to jail or losing your kids or think about, you know, not getting divorced. And think about all these horrible things. You know, you don't want those to happen anymore, but sometimes what's forgotten about it is the just misery of your life as it is just in the day to day. Like, to really

describe what the years were like was just every day my life was just a Jenga tower with a bunch of pieces out of it. And I was just kind of going through it and there was always that sense. I mean, of course, there was hangovers and some health problems. and stuff but like it was so there was just this very thin veneer of keeping things up and things are all right but just this this anxiety inducing reality that at any moment it could come crashing out like I talked about like the headlight thing yeah like because of where my life's that you know I'm because I drink like you know all day all the time there was legitimately honestly I think there was about a two year period I mean yeah probably at least a

two-year period, where honestly, I don't think I've ever would have blown double zeros on a breathalyzer. Wow. Like, I just always had it in my system. Like, even if to me, I didn't feel drunk, I was probably driving over the legal limit on my, just on my way to work. And it was always that sense where I'm just, do, do, do, I'm just living my life. You know, I feel really crummy on the inside and things are not going well and whatever.

I'm just kind of carrying along. And I go to this job I hate and I'm having a relationship problems and all this stuff. But maybe I don't know. It's just, oh, wait. there's a cop behind me and they can just totally because of that I get pulled over I get another DUI I go to jail work is going to let me go now you know maybe this is a good time for her to leave I could be homeless now literally just because there was a happen to be a cop behind me or just like for instance every time somebody bumped the table of the Jenga tower right right exactly and then every time you know that anxiety just falls you it's really funny because you have also like a lot of irrational fears that are based on rational things to be afraid about. So, like, for instance, I would, at work, I remember, I wouldn't have screwed anything up. Things were going totally great.

And the manager would be like, hey, Dave, let me talk to you real quick. And I'd just be like, I'm getting fired, I'm getting fired, I'm getting fired. Because you know, in your mind, you're not living well. And things are a disaster. And so anytime there's like any hint that the curtains are going to open and they're going to show your life is going to be revealed, it's all going to come crumbling out. Again, it's just horrible to live with the lying or the hiding and then the physical thing, you know, waking up. Literally just every day hangover is how you wake up.

There's no more hangovers anymore. This is waking up. Like, there's all these things that come with it. You know, and for some people, you know, the waking up with a bunch of text messages and you're like, oh, my God, what I do last night. I remember, thank God for the thing that they did with phones where you can, like, scroll a little bit and you can see at least the preview of the text messages. How bad is this fucking going to be? Because if it, if I had a bunch of them and I scrolled it down and I saw my name in all caps, I'd be like, you know what? I'm going to turn my phone off.

You know, if it just said, OMG, as one of the many texts that it's starting out with, I'd be like, eh. David, please call me. And, yeah, especially if one has a picture attachment, you're like, oh, God. But, but again, you could have a- 17 attachments on this text message. Yeah. fuck um that looks like a police office number um no but like again you could just get a bunch of texts from like a text chain or someone you know for any other reason but if you wake up in the morning and

you see that you're like i did something horrible or it's all coming crashing down it would always be like that and there would always be this anxiety that came with it and everything progresses too so you talk about like what my life was like over the years where it was kind of funny i could see this like graduation program of my life like literally in a physical embodiment so i went to like the same gas station because you know maybe some alcoholics there are people they try to like they do like routes where they go i don't want this person to see me buying boo at the same place yeah yeah i will i need to uphold my character to this gas station who doesn't give a fuck about my life so i'm gonna now drive to this one and this one on monday and this one on tuesday and

i for a while i was like that but i was just like fuck it i'm going to put all my shame upon this one attendant. This one 19 year old lady at the fucking guest. They will know my life's a disaster and that will be it. Like almost like in a Christ-like fashion we will put upon all our sins onto this person. So that way I don't have to

drive all over the place. Right. Yeah, there was like no joke. I would I remember I wanted to talk to her after like this year and be like, hey, did you ever care or anything? She felt like, you're an idiot. Do you know how many alcoholics coming? This is a mega saver, sir. We sell

cell phones here too well i worked at a gas station uh and i did have not a lot but you know two or three people who would come in to get their shooters at nine in the morning you're like what and the fuck is going on you know oh yeah yeah well you're never going to say hey do you want to talk like you just cash them out right of course of course like i actually there was one person i saw that was at this like liquor shop near me and we would have good conversations and he was like fun guy but it was so weird because it was just like he's selling me this this poison that's destroying my life but it's just like i like this guy and it's not on him or anything of course Of course.

But, no, I was going to say that attendant came to the point. So I talked about this graduation program where it started with I was, I don't need to get a handle, dude. Like a handle if you don't know is like almost what it's like, it's like it's the big bottle, like the gallon or whatever it may be. Literally has a handle on it because it's so big. Yes, exactly. That's how you know it's drinking in moderation. You cannot hold it in a way without help. But I was like, I'm not getting a handle, dude.

I'll just grab a pint, you know, on my way home. And then it's just like, you know what? just need to, like, it's cheaper to get the fifth. It's like, am I really? This is like Tuesday in the morning. Am I really going to get a fifth? And it's just like, yeah, dude, who cares? And then it's just like, literally the levels went up to where on the top there was the

handle. It's just like, am I going to start really getting handles now? Like, I'm just what? I'm just going to buy like four of them to start my week. And this is what I'm going to do. And eventually, it's like, yeah, I just graduated. So the gas attendant, when she seen me come in, she was, she was smaller so she

when she saw me come in she would already grab the stool to get ready to get on it to reach for the handle and it was funny there was one time where I was in a small term of sobriety she was she did it and I was just like nope not for me

I have turned my life around and how dare you assume I was going to buy that thing I've bought 94 times everybody in the gas station applaud no no they're just like he'll be back and I was and um but it's one thing really quick before you move on

that I kind of want to linger on just a tad. Yeah, yeah. Because you've alluded to it, and I definitely, now, I have nowhere near that level of experience. I've done lots of drugs in my life. Thankfully, actually, my one vice or the one addictive pattern

that I got into was with marijuana, the least harmful of all the substances. But the mind games of any level of addiction where literally you'll tell yourself, convince yourself, put the fucking hammer down, I'm not going to do this or only after this time or only this amount. and then literally seconds later

you completely construct a justification for throwing what you just committed to out of the window and then you feel shame about that but it's always this push and pull and there's always this little or multiple voices in your head shifting from moment to moment there's no way to have a long-term game plan

because when you're lost in addiction it is a moment by moment fight for getting the willpower to say no and then the next moment is just as hard and eventually four moments later you're like fuck it actually I do need it this time

this has been a particularly rough day I'll start next week right oh right yeah you always are making amendments to your constitution I swear you never read that's how you put it that's a great yeah and it's actually

it's a good so this is a funny story yes because totally it was what I was like saying before about you you don't go back to coach like these when you do these things especially in terms of like moral failings too like I was like stealing change from people like there was these crazy times where i actually whether it was my mom or my

girlfriend they just to see i was on the right path they would want i had like a shared account and they want receipts like a make account if i if yes so if i went to a gas station or if i went to any place that sell alcohol they would want me to text them of a receipt of it and in my mind i was like all right i'll i'll keep to this but eventually i was like you know what let me look into Adobe Photoshopping I started Oh my God I started

I got really good at that And I started adjusting the receipts To make it look like I would do these things Where I'd buy a certain amount of gas That match the price And just it's crazy But you start kind of doing these things

And you These moral failings are talking about Where you make these snap decisions They actually start building A sort of proof that it's like Well I've already done this Doesn't matter if I push this level again it's that like incremental nature where you swear you'd never do this thing and then

you do because you've done all these things before and it's just like you know so going back to that i that moment to moment or that one moment you're like no no no no and then you go and do it that craziness like there is i'll give one example that's so stupid but i think it highlights it perfectly of what your mind can do to convince you because it is not uh you know there's delusions that you can create, but your desire makes you buy into them. You're not like stupid. You're not like all of a sudden this became convincing to do this. It's just like your want to do it overrides any sort of rationale or logic.

And so at that point, there was one time where I was on an alcohol monitoring bracelet. And I, so there was times intermittently when I did drugs just, and it could have been anything. It could have been pills or like Adderall or even weed a couple of times. but weed never never did it for me I'm like the biggest like pro weed advocate who absolutely hates weed

but there is the time but I just I had to drink I was like I can't I have to drink but I have this alcohol So you're trying to use other substances but you're just gonna mix them you end up just mixing them yeah well I just use other substances

because I just had this bracelet on so I just couldn't drink alcohol but there was just like dude I just I want to drink dude and I can't like literally it just came to that so there was

this time where I looked at and just good old Google and you just Google weighs around like an alcohol monitoring bracelet and one of the ways that came up was you know they talked about like they even give you when they attach it

and they go you can't pull your sock over where it's in case you don't know just a little in depth the alcohol monitoring bracelet is something that's attached to you that every like 30 minutes will go and it'll like vibrate and it just reads your skin for the level of alcohol so if there's any amount like people are worried about putting on like cologne or something because it's so sensitive to it but it's on your ankle yeah it's on your ankle so it looks like an ankle monitoring bracelet like there's like why does someone have two ankle monitoring bracelets it's like no they're not in like double jeopardy or something they have the house arrest one and the alcohol one just for those people out there being too judgmental about us you know near do else but um no so there was i looked this up and i saw this um this is so stupid i saw this thing where it just

said, like, lunchmeat that you would put in between the bracelet, because there was a little bit of room, and you could put the lunch meet in between the bracelet monitor. You're already laughing. The bracelet monitor. What are the socks smell like? And your skin, right? Because in a way, in this weird way, the supposedly, according to the trusted people of the internet, it could, it kind of simulates the skin reading so it could pass it.

And I was just like, I remember when I looked that up, I was like, ha, ha. Oh my God, that's so stupid, like lunch meat. Like, what are you going to do? Like, I, if I drink once, I'm going to want to keep drinking. I have this thing on for like three more ones. What am I just going to keep packing in the lunch meat, literally, to, like, get away with this? And what if I, like, get drunk and forget to, like, replace my lunchmeat? I don't even know if this works.

And what if I get, like, wasted and I'm super hungry? I'm like, hey, I can't, you know, maybe I'll just scrape a piece of this lunchme off. Now the poor lady at the gas station has to ring in. your handle as well as a package of bologna? So here's the thing. Yeah. So I'm like, that's so stupid. Almost laughing to myself, right?

So you talk about what your mind can do in a short amount of time. Like, laughing at that. Literally 20 minutes later, I'm in like a grocery store in the luncheon. I'm just like, I'm like, hmm, I wonder if the consistency of ham is better than turkey. Bologna, because that's another phrase for bullshit. That seems a little too on the nose. What about roast beef? I don't know.

It's weird. It doesn't match my skin color. Should it match my skin color? Like, literally, from a moment of seeing how ridiculous and laughing at it is to that urge driving, I'm just like, you know what? Let me look more into this. There it is. Or literally, if you are on your way to do the thing, but still as you're on the way to do the thing, you're rationalizing to yourself. Well, I might go there, but I'm not actually going to buy this.

Yes, yeah. You do this. There's a lot of times where you do kind of a psychological Trojan horse where you create this thing where you're like, I'm doing this. because of this but inside there's the real thing where it's just like this will get me somehow to drink or use and just pack that in so you digest it and be like okay i'm doing this but secretly on the inside the trojans come out and like no we're drinking tonight and there's this you know it's so funny because there's so many it it happens in so many different ways to where it goes back to the thing i said about like the the mushrooms and that feeling that it won't go

away there's like this sense of like permanence it has because it's so intense the the obsession and the want to do it is so intense that it's weird like time can like slow down or your you're you have this mindset that can't be interrupted by anything else so it literally just kind of like bludgeon's you to doing it like it just the it's just the erosion of it you know like you can fight it off for a time but it's just so relentless right and like a big thing about recovery is like finding you know people say you try to find your ways to to get out of that set but the real thing is is to try to try to stop them in the beginning or to try to try nip it at the button because at a certain point when it becomes when you're in that that deep and you have no defenses for it you're going to like there's times where I had been like you know maybe a few months sober and I was just like dude this you can't drink and it was almost like an out of body experience me walking to the gas station like almost as if I couldn't stop myself like literally for almost the third person

perspective I'm just like what are you doing what are you doing and I'm just like I'm going to do this. I literally like almost could feel myself put up walls for any sort of any sort of like thought of of why I can't do this. I was like I just almost seriously like mentally and emotionally plugging my ears and going la la la la I don't we're going to just drink. I don't I don't think I'm it's going to be different this time around. I don't think I'm going to drink normally. I don't think it's going to end well. I don't want to hear it right now. Like one one funny thing is is that a big idea in recovery is like live for the day. you know like live you know carp a dm for a lot of self-help stuff like you know live for the day

live each day just for today and in a very weird way alcoholism and drug addiction is the in a way it is truly living for the day the dark version of that yes the dark version of that because you are not thinking about the future a lot i mean you are truly living for that moment for that buzz and there is like truly in a way sometimes i think about it now there is something very comfortable about that it's there's something nice about having just the top tier thing that it's like everything's okay if i just get that one thing my pursuit is that one thing then i'll deal with the the rest of the crap like it's like when you're living just a normal um life you're just like i have to figure out like the finances and how is this relationship going and what are you know what

am i going to be in five years where's this career going yeah it's so come to me like dude my only like my only game plan is just to get this thing it's a very like in a sense like comforting way to to kind of like go about your life because it makes it like it's a not only a familiar misery that a lot of people experience when it comes to like going back

to drinking or using that familiar misery of how your system in your life is but it's also it's for it complicates your life immensely but it's a very uncomplicated system of living and it's very attractive I think to people at least like me that can overthink things and just go drive themselves

crazy with worries and stuff and you'll have plenty of other worries and stuff because of what you're doing but the main goal of just doing that is is um it's very tempting you know i just as a quick like segue i i would say that when we're talking about progression of you know drinking and like how you go how things get worse how things you know escalate you know when it comes to drugs and alcohol like you can think of the think of like the math Masloves, like, Maslow. Pararchy of needs? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you think about that, and at the bottom, like, you know, it goes down from like self-actualization and self-esteem and, like, a cheap cell phone plan. And then, like, I don't remember the rest of them. But at the bottom, you have a great, great summary of a class. Have a degree in sociology. Thank you very much. But you at the bottom, you have that, like, the base thing, right? Yeah.

Now, with an alcoholic and addict, imagine you add another thicker, heavier base and it's alcohol and drugs right so when you're in active addiction it's almost like you flip the pyramid upside down so now that that big base is is top heavy and it's alcohol drugs and it starts as you go on it starts to crush these things underneath it so like the self-actylization gives a shit about that off the board yeah self-esteem yeah i've already bought you know vodka at six in the morning with nickels enough i don't need that that is only holding me back. So that gets crushed. And then the other things like, you know, love, self-love or love from others, it's just over time, just imagine that that base is just crushing all the things under

the pyramid to the point where if it goes on long enough, security, I think, was one of them, that your biological needs, like sleep and eating, even that begins crushing until the goal is at the end, it's just that base thing that's left alone. And that is how, that is how kind of the progression goes in terms of what you're willing to do, what your mind wants to do, it's just it's learned that like sole focus behavior which again you wish you could just have for anything else like a passion that you're having your life like that single-minded dedication to something people you know a lot of times people are like you need to be as dedicated to recovery as you were to getting drugs and alcohol and I'm like okay that's not

happening as long as you understand dude if I have like 30% of that dedication I think of good because dude I was willing to like walk through the snow and and and and and and wait and freezing cold temperatures outside at six in the morning, do things that morally disgusted me, just crawl through with like withdrawals to the nearest gas station, lie, like, stay up late at night, do these schemes. Like, I was willing to, I don't think I've been more willing to do anything in my life beyond that. So let's just, maybe not all of it, maybe a 30% of that determination, I think will help

me a lot. Sufficient, yeah. You know, really quick before we move on, I wanted to touch on. something you said when you were talking about carpe diem and seizing the day and well it's like a dark version of that yeah um you're very much living in the moment and there's something almost comforting about knowing that there's a single-mindedness to what you got to accomplish today even if that is about drugs and alcohol but there's something with with all addictions that i that i find even with some of my struggles around like my uses of marijuana which is the grounding effect

of certain rituals that surround the substance so marijuana it's obvious you're grinding up the weed you're knocking out you're smelling it it's very aromatic and it's very aromatic you're loading the pipe or the bong or whatever it may be the joint and i i think with every addiction even you know with gambling with sex addiction these rituals surround the object of desire and rituals just broadly speaking are a sort of grounding deeply human thing that we do and specifically in times of chaos or uncertainty or anxiety we might turn to certain rituals that bring us comfort you know even just going into the room opening up my weed box smelling it you know grinding it up that is a grounding thing that brings me into the moment now you know with marijuana it's certainly

not as bad as opiates or alcohol or anything like that but it's just this this ritual surrounding the object of one's addictive desire um does does that ring true to you with alcohol and if so what were the sort of rituals surrounding your alcohol use yeah so i would say a lot of my friends that i know that were still in opiates when I had moved on to alcohol or whatever you want to call it, you know, unfortunately, some of the ones that had died, they would

talk about how the best moment of their drug-going experience was, especially when they were shooting up, was the preparing of it. Like, I remember, too, when I'd get drugs because they were harder to get than out, like, finally buying it and having the pills and like whatever thing, like a

filmcaster or just a cigarette cellophane or something, holding it and be like yes I have it like that was there is my I think there that certainly comes with with alcohol in a sense of you have you get to have this like carrot ahead of you where it's not just the ritual of it but you get this relaxed sense of if you especially if you get off work and you're going to the gas station the familiarity even if it's the person that's like this person's like he's literally buying bologna and handles vodka a day what is happening no but the the effect because it's not just the rituals

because the rituals you could say at least in my case were not particularly like weed sounds way better like the smell and like the ambiance or whatever but it is doing these things knowing it's coming to the effect so they become more likable or they become enjoyable because you know it's building up to it's almost like if you're listening to a song where you really love the chorus

and you just have that verse and you're like kind of getting through and even think the verse is kind of stupid but you're like here comes that banger chorus and you're just like that building up to it like I remember I loved one thing I loved about alcohol when I was when I was working I could be dealing with somebody like in person like handling accounts and the person would actually come in and it was like really confrontational yeah yeah really confrontational and in I could seem like dude totally serene like I could handle it totally fine and people like wow you and that doesn't bug you or anything the whole time this person was like yelling at me and or it's this really intense conversation like above his head I can see the water bottle I had in my car

filled with vodka floating above his head and the whole time I was thinking this is okay because I know after this I'll get that next drink so this is totally doable and then literally just like the for it to be done and then to have the lunch break

like people like their lunch breaks is because the break from work mine had this extra thing of like I get to go back sit in my car pop that glove compartment man, and has that familiar little, I should really change the sonic bottle. I've been using it for a lot.

Waterballs aren't that expensive. But that familiar bottle just pops out and I have my little, like, my little chaser with it too. And the sense of not just the ritual of it. Like, I think it goes, at least for me, it goes to something deeper that drugs and alcohol did for me that I was so deep in my core. Something I still feel is that,

you know, I feel like a lot, and this could have been due to my experiences with, you know, suffering from depression, I couldn't count on anything to give me contentment or enjoyment for sure. There was a lot of things that usually would, but I couldn't, you know, there's a lot of things in life, too, where even a great vacation you have planned, that's going to be awesome, things come up and it becomes a nightmare sometimes, or especially on a broader level. like you thought that getting this career or finally getting this job or doing this thing is finally going to bring you the happiness that you want or like working towards this goal or just these little things in your life where you're looking for happiness or you're looking for fulfillment or something and there's no guarantee of it there's no guarantee you'll find it even when you get the things that you want and the biggest thing for me was that the drinking this putting this liquid in my body had a guaranteed feeling

feeling every time. So, like, it was so nice. It gave me this sense of control on what my happiness was, where it was like, I, before, I was depressed and I didn't know why. I was, I was just struggling. I was like, things are, I have a pretty good life. Things are going pretty good. Like, what's, what is going on? You know, this, why isn't, you know, this is kind of selfish. Like, why isn't I, I'm enjoying these things? I should. And then with alcohol, like, it gives me, you know, even if it decreases, like the value of it depreciates, is that a word? Yeah. Okay.

Even if that happens over time because of your tolerance and, you know, we talked about like chasing the dragon, chasing that first sight, it still has this guarantee, like you know what to expect and you know how you're going to feel. And there's such comfort in that to when then you put all your enjoyment in life on this thing, it can cause all this horrible crap, but at least that thing keeps giving you what you want, or at least a semblance, you know, over time of what you want. at least it's giving you that so even the rituals or things around it bring some sense of comfort because you know internally what the outcome is going to be in fact to that point there's a lot of people um i think it's very true and it kind of sounds selfish or awful but there's a lot of people

despite all the consequences that happened their life or all the hurt they've done to others they said one of the main reasons that they were able to really quit and stay sober was they just didn't enjoy it anymore like it was like i'm doing all this stuff and man i'm not even getting that enjoyment like this is bullshit i mean i should at least get some something that i want on this return of this huge investment i'm blowing so to speak and you know like that when that enjoyment's still in there you know when it still brings you that relief it's it's it's hard to to pass up because it's like it will it's going to produce what you want like every time like nothing else in life does that for me yeah that's that's incredibly deep and i think a lot of

people out there, regardless of what they struggle with, share that. And I think one of the biggest things that I've learned in my life, specifically through my practices within Buddhism, which maybe we can talk about a little bit later, is that human beings in general feel as if there's something missing. We're not fully worthy. We're not fully fulfilled. We need to fill something within ourselves to get a sense of happiness or contentment or peace or whatever you think life has the offer on the positive side. So there's an externalization of our search for happiness, our search for ourselves, our search for that anchoring,

that happiness, that contentment, et cetera. But when it's externalized, it always leads to suffering. So when you, you know, you say, I will be happy when I get the partner that I've always wanted, when I get the job I've always wanted, or, you know, at lower levels, when I can, you know, have sex or when I can get that drug or that alcohol or that substance, you know, whatever it may be.

it's always something outside of myself that I need to go out in the world and obtain and then by going and getting that maybe I'll be able to find that happiness or whatever it is. But then you find when you get the thing that that happiness is very elusive and even if you have a few brief moments of happiness, you find

that you're still stuck with the same old desiring and the same old sense of I'm not enough and I need something more, blah, blah, blah. And I think with our society in particular, fame and wealth and status are the things that is the carrot dangling, out in front of all of us in a general sense, you want to be happy, you want to feel like you're worthy, get money and fame and status in this capitalist society, and you will

be able to have that respect and that happiness that you so desperately want, right? And then a lot of people, the few people that actually can get those things, they get there and they realize, oh, wow, that feeling that I'm still not happy is still here. And then that can either lead to psychosis or you can just sort of numb it out with drugs and alcohol, or you can distract yourself from it, or some people eventually start trying to look inward. And that is a whole journey in and of itself, but I am a firm believer that any sort of happiness or contentment must come by going inward, not by searching for things externally. But we have nothing in our culture that that tells us that or that implies that. Everything in our culture says, everything is outward. Do, do, do, be productive, accomplish things, show your bank account, how rich you are, how good a clothes you can wear, how nice of a car you can drive. and that is how you get respect and happiness in this world.

And I think that's a real problem. So does any of that resonate with you? Do you feel like that has some truth to it? I would ask, have you ever heard about the sacred word of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ? No. Actually, I have. The reason I say that is because that is usually what's used a lot for that inward nature of stuff.

You know, especially with people in recovery, when they need to fill that, that's kind of the thing they replace it with. which, by the way, I'm not against any of any of that. But what you're talking about that inward journey, you know, a lot of it about addiction and alcoholism is a sense of you're replacing something that is missing. And some people have a, you know, I would say everyone at some point in their life or for most their life struggles with that, you know, and whatever remedy, that inward journey people are so afraid of taking. frankly, as you put, don't even know where to begin to take it, or don't know to take it.

Yes. You know, and that's why I brought up the joke about the Lord and Savior, because a lot of people think that's, like, the hack to doing that. Right. All right. This is the inward journey. And the thing is, is that, like, alcohol and drugs is such a, no pun intended, mainline way to dispel with that journey. easily and other people who you know most people in the world i guess that that don't have drug and alcohol addiction they flail in other ways to find that thing totally um but they don't have

the consequences that drug and out drug addicts and alcoholics have and so if i'm trying to find i'm normally a very cynical person i thought alcohol and addiction made me that way it turns out i just am but if i'm to look at a silver lining in some respect i wouldn't wish the affliction of drug addiction and alcoholism on anyone, but one silver lining of it is that when you get sober and you don't have that thing and you realize you were replacing that with someone, it helps you actually push you to that journey a lot quicker. Some people believe me, they totally replace it with, all right, now I'm going to follow what the normal people are chasing. I'm doing CrossFit every day. Yeah, I'm going to work from putting in works. I'm a

workaholic now and, you know, all that stuff. But I think for some people, it's, It makes that, like what you just described, it makes that realization quicker because they know that a lot of those things are just as hollow as the, as drugs and alcohols and that they chase. And I don't think it's coincidence that the people that have all the things you were talking about usually go right to drugs and alcohol. The rich and famous people, that's like, and sex. You know what? That crack addict on the street, he had it right.

I'm now a man of the people. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Well, that actually leads really well into this next question. And this is the one that we've talked about offline, and you have a really, I think, interesting perspective on this. So many times people drink to cover up unpleasant feelings or, you know, any sort of addictive behavior.

You know, often it's the alcoholics in my life all share a low self-sense of self-worth, low self-esteem, that they try to hide and cover. But if you know somebody at their deepest levels, a very close family member, you know that's what's going on. Other people use it to deal with trauma, with shame, depression. grief, etc. And certainly the people in my life or even my forays into various forms of possible addictions were kind of centered around internal suffering and trying to get rid of it. Is that true for you? Is that true broadly?

You can take this in any direction you want. But what do you think about that idea that with alcoholism, let's just say, specifically more times than not, it is using that substance to escape unpleasant feelings that you don't have the tools to face sober. I think it brings up a very, you know, an endless but interesting discussion that usually happens with a lot of these things of the idea of nature versus nurture, you know, there are some people that, unfortunately, you know, what you've known in your life, that alcoholism passes down like the family name.

Like, and there is an idea, like people have argued like, is there's things genetic and people even, you know, some people, and I totally understand the sentiment, like, when it's called the disease of alcoholism. Some people are kind of off put by that just because, like, no, like, cancer's disease. And, you know, there's stuff like that. So it goes into this idea, though, that I think about a lot where it's like, okay,

there are things that can certainly push you toward addiction and alcoholism. And there's things that can exacerbate it. And there's things that are, like, especially those psychological problems, or trauma or your environment that can make it harder to do the things you need to do to recover.

You know, one could argue, well, look, it passes down like the family name, you know, in people. So that's got to be a hint towards, like, genetics of alcoholism. And it's like, well, I don't know, have you ever grown up an alcoholic home? Like, it's stressful. And unfortunately, you have not great role models at times

where you learn a lot of bad ideas about the nature of life. Or it's just fucking stress. and like that can push you in that sense and you kind of have these learned behaviors maybe it's not genetic at all maybe it's just being born into that like and seeing having that upbringing that pushes you towards it you know there is like there's certainly so many things that can be these sort of gateways to alcoholism and addiction and the main point i think that i i'd like to make about this right i like to be considered is that these things can can can do all these things to foster it, to push it, to make it harder to stop. But I think there, it's important to recognize that

it is, once it is started, or once you're initiated to it, it is a, it's its own thing. And by that, I mean, like, so I try not to sound like an asshole at all for

like saying something like this, but like there was a lot of people I hear before where they go. I, I, I drank. because this and it could be incredibly like convincing stuff and totally justifiable stuff like I drank because

of the trauma I experienced or I drank because I'm depressed I couldn't like it like there's these things I drank because this horrible event happened in my life and I think that that could have that could start it

and that could again exacerbate it but in terms of like trying to get sober I don't think it's productive to think in that term because, like I said, when I say it's become its own thing, once it starts, like, you know, you, when you, like, day after day were, like, you know, drinking before work, was that because of the trauma you had faced in your life? You know, like, was that, and again, that I should stop using trauma because I know it's, like, but I'm, like, let's say depression. And so there's this, you know, that was one thing I totally had as like a narrative in my mind where I was like, I drank because I couldn't find happiness because I was totally depressed. And that was certainly a huge part of it. But at a certain point, it wasn't about my depression because I would get sober for a little bit and things would be going better.

And I would just still be, dude, I have to drink. Like it would still be there. And to place it on the idea of that was the reason, it could be a reason to start it. But at that certain point, you've created a. new mechanism within you that's going to it's it doesn't hold bounds to like if i cut this thing out of my life therefore it will be gone there are some outliers out there i i hate to make so many caveats during this stuff but i i think they they deserve a touchy subject and people are i mean this is a very touchy subject for people and they have radically different experiences so you

want to be right and there's even and you know i won't say but you know a person in my family who's a total outlier in the sense that they had this experience with meth and then no recovery they just dropped it and they were cold turkey It was totally like a bad period of their life. And usually it's like, no, man, it's, it may been a, it's not just a bad period of your life. It's now something that's inside of you. It's like, no, it wasn't. There's plenty of people like that.

I see, yeah, exactly. I'm just talking in generalities when it comes to this. And so the idea that this is what caused it. So once this is removed, this is what will stop it is, is not always the best way to go about it because you might be, you might become very disappointed in the reality of it. You know what caused it? say it even is the reason why it started. Once it's begun, once you've carried on the life of an alcoholic and addict and you've got dispersed the behaviors and rituals and all the things, once you've trained your mind to do that, once you become addicted to the instant gratification, like that rarely, rarely will go away. And it doesn't matter if you've attended to these things and found great progress in the ails of your life.

That is still there. Now it's like, okay, this was the reason that happened. But now it's a whole other thing. Like this is, and so I think also to one other trap, I think I've talked to you about this before, is that there is something too when you consider what you've done as an alcoholic or addict, you know,

the shameful, embarrassing, or even just morally wrong things where I got to a point where I just, I came to the acceptance of, I drank because I liked the way it made me feel. Like that's, that is why I did it. There was a reason to put on it.

That's why I did it. However, especially like in treatment centers or, you know, there's always this drive, like the almost movie-like drive to find, like in the movies with psychology and stuff, to find that one thing, the holy grail of what started all of this. Your mom never loved you. That's why your life is that way. Right. You know, it's not your fault thing in goodwill hunting where you finally break down and you find the reason.

And it's just almost religious experience of understanding this is the root of all my problems. Revelation. Yes. There's such a drive for that. And it can seem like, you know, a profound thing to do to be like, if I excise this out of my life, this is where I'll be. And it's much, you know, again, you think about the things you did. And it looks like in a much more negative life and much more selfish. If I were to tell my family and the people I hurt, I did it because I like the way drinking makes me feel.

Right. Because then I look like a fucking asshole. So there's a natural inclination to look backwards in retro. retroactively put on a narrative was like, no, no, no, I drank because of the the crushing depression and the unhappiness that was in my life. That's more palatable. But it doesn't matter.

The same outcomes had happened. The same actions were partaking in. But to you for your own esteem, like, it's easier to kind of swallow that. And if it's easier to swallow that, it's easier to kind of believe that. And it's harder. And it feels worse to say, it's like, I did those things because

I liked the way it made me feel, and I needed to feel that way. I needed did that. And if I were to, believe me, I did try this for many years. I come at it where I was like, if I can take care of this depression problem, the low self-esteem and self-worth that I had in my life, which by the way, a lot of it was just caused by what I did when I was drinking. So it's like a chicken or the egg thing. But if I, not if, I did approach it that way. And that became fruitless because it's like, okay, you know, I'm attending to this depression. I'm in therapy. I'm focusing on that. But it's like, no, dude, it doesn't, you still want to do this. This is

still inside of you as like something that you've trained your life to like all the things we've discussed about the the the simple and attractive nature of that one goal pursuit in your mind or the idea you can have control on your contentment and happiness or that all that stuff is involved in it now even if it wasn't there before it just shifts your mind into this new this new brain you almost have of how things work and i would say that that that's probably literally true and the way that i would frame what your point that you're making which i agree with is while there may be like mental or emotional variables that pushed you in the direction of the substance use disorder, at some point it literally neurochemically hijacks your brain.

And so even if you were to deal with those prior emotional mental trauma related issues, which is worth doing of its own accord, the momentum, the neurochemical hijacking has already so thoroughly taken place that now that is, as you said, its own thing. Now you need to deal with the actual chemistry, the neurochemistry of addiction to break that addiction as well as perhaps addressing some of those other emotional problems. But over emphasizing, overstating the emotional and mental parts and saying if I can just address that, then this whole thing will just sort of evaporate because the foundation for it is now gone. But then you try to address it and it's not evaporating. then you can get it into an even more like sort of desperate fearful situation of like oh I tried to do this thing and I thought I really did it but yet the problem is still here what is wrong I'm missing something so if you go into it or if you're an addiction you realize there is that component but you also have to take seriously the brutal hijacking of your neurochemistry and at that point it's a scientific issue right and that's absolutely right and that's the thing I go back to the idea of like the Trojan horse of where it, you know, a lot of people talk about those things.

Like, you know, drinking made me, made me feel the way I didn't feel before where I felt accepted or powerful or confident or, you know, all those things. Or, you know, drinking away emotions. It helped me cover up these feelings I had. It helped me cover up my past. It helped me. And it's like, yeah, that, it totally works for that. Like, if drugs and alcohol are, we, people are addicted to them

because they are very effective in certain things. That's the problem is they work. You don't see anybody, there's no commercials. for let's do meth like if anything there's only anti-commercial and yet that shit still sells gangbusters and it's because dude they get the job done right

but so it could very well do those things but think of it as a scale of like this where you have those negative feelings where you're trying to cover them you're trying to cover up the fact that you just don't feel valuable in your own life and then drugs and alcohol

they make you feel that way and it's just like that's when it starts well the thing is is now you've now that hijacking you've now learned that it does it for a lot of other things it does it for stress it does it for just how to have a good time enjoyment you've now applied that to everything so now it's become more than just a multifaceted problem

to where the point I guess I'm trying to make with this sort of topic is that it is totally especially when it comes to deeper issues like actual psychological issues or or trauma or what your environment is it is totally right and necessary to address those things when you're trying to get sober and to get better in your life but they you have to acknowledge that these are just fixing these things won't won't do it like this this isn't the root cause and you cut it off at the head you have to be able to

address like a just address how it's it's infected every part of every front on every front on every front used into every social relation you have every day to day habit you have everything you do. So even if there was a single cause that was the impetus to all this, it's now taken on a life of its own and it must be combated on every front. And one of those fronts that I think gets overlooked, particularly in this society, is the social conditions. So we talked about genetics certainly plays a role, but it's not everything.

Mental and emotional trauma and issues plays a role, but it can't be everything. The neurochemical aspect of it plays a role, but it can't be everything. And you'll actually often hear this line. and broader society colloquially, oh, you're, addiction aside, oh, you're oppressed, it's a neurochemical imbalance, right? And people are like, oh, yeah, if I just get the neurochemical balance right,

then I'll be happy again. Well, that obliterates all the other variables. One of the variables specifically with me that I can relate to and part of my struggles, not only just with addictive issues, but with like depression and anxiety and stuff, is like the meaninglessness of wage labor. Right?

The day-to-day grind of going into a job, you fucking hate that offers you nothing like fulfillment that is just a grinding away of your alive and awake time in the cosmos that to me was always something that really brought me fucking down and then there's this dynamic that begins to arise when you know specifically people that don't drink or use their substance during the work day but you know there's that little carrot you dangle for the end of the day i have to get through this shitty fucking job that i fucking hate that I have to have or else I'll be homeless, but I know that the

moment I get off, I can go to my car, I can light up that joint, I can take a swig of that bottle, I can, you know, do that line or whatever it is, and for the few hours after work, I can escape, you know, these brutal, and that's also proven true by the pandemic

in quarantine. We've seen health issues and addiction skyrocket after two years of quarantine, the isolation, the uncertainty, the anxiety. That is a prime example. of social conditions impacting people's mental health. And then that mental health can take the form of, you know, addiction, but it can also take a million other form.

So all those variables, including, I think, social conditions, which almost always gets left out of these discussions. Right, right, because that seems it's like, you know what, I can't worry about the world right now. I just need to not drink right now. So it's very easy to not discuss that stuff. And one thing I wanted to point out upon, which I always think is hilarious,

is you talk about that if we could get the neuro, chemistry right or if we could do that thing like it's so funny to me because it's like dude you're falling back into the same problem you're like you're waiting for the chemicals to change how you feel it's just like like at least the at least the meth addict is like supporting local business like you know what are we talking about we're going to let Pfizer help us like support your local business man at the very least like they're way better than those drugs so like so yeah by the way this episode is brought to you by Yeah, shouts out to Pfizer.

Ad break. But yeah, like that idea, too, again, part of it is a paradigm, like, thing where it's just totally, you know, you hear, well, in recovery circles you can hear about, like, cross addiction or the things that you're still kind of doing the same things. You're just doing it in more socially acceptable mode or at least a least less, like, damaging mode of doing it. but it's still chasing that carrot or it's still chasing that thing. You could do it at minuscule levels and what happens is that eventually, and I've been through this,

I just go, why I just do the real thing? I'm still doing the same shit. Like, I'm still looking for the next time I can eat that thing or I can jerk off or I can like fucking smoke like a cigarette or like hit the energy drink

and get that nice little buzz at like 6 in the morning when I'm waiting. I'm still chasing the chemical things. Dude, just do the real thing now, David. You're still not even doing it the right way absolutely yeah it's it's really macab it's it's tough for sure um all right well let me let's actually move into the next question about getting sober but perhaps before we talk about how you actually got sober maybe we talked a little bit about like your summary and i know you have

some experiences golden gate bridge south dakota if you just want to say like oh yeah yeah one of those particular low points that people out there that are struggling with you know people out there that have struggled with it or are struggling or have somebody that struggling these low points are important. Taking everything you said about Rock Bottom into account, which I think you're 100% correct on, maybe you can touch on some of the more particular lowest points that you personally reach and then we can get into how you got sober. Yeah.

So the way that my trajectory of my life was, is in terms of alcohol, it was kind of interesting. So like for the last three years before I had this run of sobriety, I was, I would say most of the time I was sober. It was just, I'd have a month here, two months there, three months, usually that game, never really went over three months, variety. And I wasn't drinking that often. If I did relapse, it would be for like a couple of days. Like, so I'm sorry, before it was, maybe I would try to get sober and it would just be like,

nope, two years of straight drinking or just the only interruptions. Like, I mean, you know how much I love, like, I continue to drink when I had the flu. Like, usually I don't know anything. Even if I have the flu, I'm dragging my ass to that mega saver. But, you know, it was just this, the drinking just kind of persisted as that daily grind I was talking about, you know, before. And that was probably about, I would say about the, like a seven-year period of my life. And then maybe eight, whatever. But then there was like this three-year period where I wouldn't, I was really earnestly like trying to stay sober.

And I'd say I did before, but I just wasn't even capable. But I was earnestly trying to stay sober and found some success. But what happened was that the relapses that I'd have were much more acute. And I mean, like normally before, after just a long stretch of just drinking, I would like physically break down. And I'd start to psychologically break down. And just like, you know, you don't get any real. sleep. I got no sleep when I was drinking. The sleep

I got was dog shit anyways. I wasn't going to bed. I was passing out. So I would just like psychologically become, you know, unhinged at times. You're not getting that deep restorative sleep. Right. And I was just having like these mental breakdowns. I mean, there was many times I went to the psych work because I'm just like

I'm going to kill myself. I'm not even like I just I can't do this. My mind was just like broken by the erosion. And then I'd have a little bit of sober time and I'd go back to it and it would kind of persist on as the daily drinking thing. Like in the last three years, it was very, very strange, but when I drink, it would be back to full bore.

Again, I didn't have any delusions that I'm going to drink like a normal person. It was like, literally my relapses were just an exercise of my apathy. Like, I just, I don't care. I don't think I'm getting, it's hopeless. For you, it's a light switch. It's either on or it's off. There's no dimmer. No, yeah.

Oh, yeah. And, but I would immediately go into this, like, fatalistic at it. I'm like, I would call it like an angry apathy. Like, I would just be like, just fucking kill yourself, man. Like, this is, it would just go off the rails quickly. And I, like, when you reference, like, the South Dakota, the Golden Gate Bridge, I remember I would, I'd relapse and I would be drinking, just going about my life, the life I recreated and rebuilt, like back its new job and things were going well.

I would go about that for two days and then realize it was unstable, like people, already start notice okay he's drinking again and there I just I don't know why I didn't know where I was going I just drove and I just I had no reason to be

in South Dakota I had I just drove and it was literally like I thought in my mind if I keep driving I won't if I stop somewhere I'm probably just gonna like

stop and find a way to drink more or kill myself or usual Are you drinking as you're leaving yes I'm drinking the whole time too So you relapse you say fuck it the people around you starting to notice out of pure desperation

and just the fact that you're fully now indulging again you just take the fuck off. Yeah and the funny thing is is that the with these relapses I had the more success I had the harder the relapse was because the more hopeless I became because after I saw I

had success and then it failed I'm like oh I'm never getting out of this shit like things were getting better like I actually you know I talked with my girlfriend and she she actually talked about the most disheartening moments, the hardest moments to stay there or to not just like mentally or emotionally

like walk away or physically, you know, walk away was after I things were going good and then I just went back to drinking because it was like before you were just straight drinking but I mean you weren't trying or you were just incapable of getting sober but once you did once you got on track then then things at least had a chance to turn around

you've turned around and you've gone back things were going so good at a point now I can't even trust it anytime there's even good or success success in the future I can't there's always doubt because you've done this before there were so many times it was torturous

people would ask like you've been sober like what's different this time around and I would just be like I don't want to tell them the truth but I want to go I don't know I've been here before that's like this horrible sense of deja vu

like I would be enjoying some success in sobriety and it would just be like I've been here before though man Like every time When I'd go back When I'd have like You know

Three months of sobriety Where I want to tell people out there You can make huge changes In your life After three months After a month Um I would have that

And I'd go back to drinking And my mind would almost taught me You'd be like You thought that sober life was you Don't oh no That was just a dream man You this is this life This is who you were meant to be

There's no escaping that Like that little sober break You had in that It was just an interruption Of what your life actually is You're gonna die in alcohol Like, that's the way. Some people get better, not you, though.

It's okay. Like, I would literally think those thoughts, and I just be like, you know, it's, I'm done. I was going to drive to the Golden Gate Bridge, which, by the way, I had to be drunk because it's just like, David, this is so cliche. Like, I'm going with a better way to, you know. Also, we live in Nebraska. That's a goddamn two-day drive, dude. It is.

There's a time where I was drinking at, like, Google. And I was like, Google Maps is like 23 hours. Like, South Dakota is more reasonable. Yeah, instead of leaving Las Vegas, it's like leaving, like, council bluffs. Instead of, like, at the, at the, at Caesars, it's like,

maybe I'll just go to, like, the satellite motel. But it was... There's some local-ass references. The satellite and CV? Yeah, if you want to imagine what it is, just imagine a general award is a hotel. And, um... Yeah, Google the satellite motel

over there. It would be like, you'd ask, is their bedbugs? Like, you're asking that now? Like, you come here to die, man. But, like, in all honesty, those relapses, those low points. Like, there was times where I had to get, like, you know, going through both those withdrawals or going through withdrawals in jail. I mean, it's weird to conceptualize these low points. I would say the last final relapses were, I guess, the biggest low points is because, like, I mentioned the coin flip suicide.

before and I kind of while I was just unsure I was like totally convinced I was like I'm going to do this and there was a part of me that was when I was in this hotel in South Dakota I was like I'm just going to keep drinking because I don't maybe I won't I won't do it if I'm just keeping drinking I don't know even know what my plan is for the next three hours I don't know what I'm going to do but maybe I'll get a drink enough so my mind can be oblivious to where I can I can I found this um grain silo that was like close to the the the hotel and I was like I'll I'll just jump off that um but i'll just keep i'll just keep drinking out and i don't know where i'm going with it like i i remember i left and i i left my cell phone at home i just i bought like a burner phone

at some gas station just so i could i don't know google things or just like try to distract myself i wanted i just wanted to disappear and it was kind of this thing where it was just like i can't bring myself to do this but everything wants me to do this and i started and we talked about a little bit off this you know about the ideas of of suicide and I just, my life is not, it was so hopeless. I'm like, it's not getting any better. And I thought things were hopeless before where I was like, man, I'm not getting getting any better.

I'm just going to have to keep living like this. And then I got to another level of hopelessness. I was just like, killing yourself is the better option. And I really believe that. And that was, that was those real low moments. But here's the crazy thing, honestly. That wasn't enough to get me to stop in the sense where I drank after. those moments because those those things they don't they don't hold you the way you wish they would

like they don't there's certain things for people to be like this low point i don't ever want to feel that anymore and then time has this funny way up just like you get past a little bit and you're just like that's not as crystalline in my mind anymore like i don't want to feel that anymore well i'm not i'm in a different place and i'm going to drink again like there it has to be it can't be in my mind it can't be just because i don't want to go back to that place like truly one thing that is helping me, you know, stay sober in this stretch is that I

can't even, I used to have my, my fantasies of my life were so pathetic where I was like, I hope to just be a functional alcoholic. Like I hope to just... That was your highest aspiration. At a certain point I was like, all right, this is all that's on the table.

So I hope that I live in some trailer with like 14 dogs and I'm going to die alone because, you know, no one wants to be around me, but I can attain to that. And it got to a certain point where once I, every time I'd relapsed, it was like in this, it's like, you took my brain out and replaced it with a different brain. It was just like, all right, no, the real plan here, dude, is we're going to kill ourselves. And it literally became like, I, you know, before I'd relapse out of that apathy, it was just like, I don't know where this is going to go, but it's going to go somewhere awful.

It's like now it's like, no, literally if I, next time you make the decision to relapse, you have to be ready to die. Like, really truly, like, some people say that, but it's hard to quantify because, like, I know if I drink I'll die. It's like, well, if you drink, will you really die? I mean, you'll drink, and then you'll drink again, and I mean, you might get in a car accident or something, or your liver is really bad, and then you might have to go to the hospital. But you're not, like, going to die, right? It would be nice in a weird way, if that was on the table, because then it could be a very binary decision of, like, drink, die. And I can't.

But there's usually leeway, so to speak, with that because you can relapse and then kind of it will go from there. At this point, I literally had gone so crazy. right away that I just truly don't know if I were to drink again what would happen and I think if I were to drink again it would be because I'm soberly suicidal and maybe that would be

enough to give me to do it and that's at the point I'm very cognizant of that and for the low points that it would be a tool of I usually don't like to anthropomorphize like addiction in some way like people like to put it as like it wants me to do this it's a thing that has a will it wants me

to do this it's trying to you know it's just like no it's just buzz buzz chemical thing like it's not doing you know or a psychological thing it's not a thing but if i if i were to do it a little bit i'd be like it all the drinking is now about from this point on is to to to eventually be able to like kill myself to die it's to that level and i know it isn't a lot for maybe most people it's not at that level but at least in my just in my experience for this subject that's that's where it was it was at yeah that's that's incredibly intense stuff. You know, there is something that you said there

that I think is interesting and we don't want to spend too much time on this because it's not the focus of this episode, but you're talking about talking to yourself. Like, you know, you even said the phrase like talking to yourself, we're going to kill ourselves. And I think that speaks to something that, you know, through Buddhism specifically that I've come to really understand

is like how the psyche is split against itself and how all day long we're talking to ourselves and listening to ourselves as if there are at least two people in there. There's the talker and there's the listener. There's the harsh critic, you know, the super ego, you fucking worthless piece of shit. And there's the you that coweres your head and like, yeah, I am a worthless piece of shit. And, you know, one thing that I think ultimately meditation and Buddhism can offer is is the reunification of that sense of a split psyche that takes the form of incessant inner chattering to yourself all day.

long. Neither here nor there, but it just is true that anybody dealing with addiction, I think like there's already a split psyche in the healthiest average person, and then like these addictions and these mental and emotional struggles can even widen that gap, can make that split psyche into several different selves or the conflict that is between the self and the self can intensify and exacerbate. But I just find that to be interesting. And there's also this element with my dad, specifically, you know, that's the closest example I have of these relapses of, you know, my entire life.

My dad would go to a rehab after a suicide attempt at one time, right? Or in legal trouble, he would go to a rehab to get sober. And there's this, all the family, especially the first time or two, very hopeful. Oh, my God, he's finally doing it. And then when they, when they fall back, that heartbreak is worse than it was before. And I have to assume on the other side of that, the shame is worse than it even was before. When you do that relapse and you see that the people in your life have been let down, does that resonate with your experience at all?

Absolutely. And it drives one of the most powerful drivers of addiction is hopelessness. Like one of the most powerful, in the same way that I feel like, at least for me, one of the more powerful drivers towards suicide is not just sadness, but it's apathy. like there are plenty of people who are super struggling and they just can't handle their life and especially with alcohol and addiction but in a weird sense they're not hopeless they're just they're on like this this track and they can't seem to get off and they're just trying to deal with these problems but they're they're not actually hopeless like they think there is a way

they're maybe just not partaking in it or they just they're in delusion or denial they're like pushing it off but weirdly enough they're not actually like truly hopeless they're just just doing some, like, you know, mental gymnastics to keep drinking or to, um, or to, you know, push away the hope that you'll change or something like, I'll get sober next year or next month. Right, right, right. The tomorrow always looks way easier. I always, I have this idea where like there's, there's future David where like, I have so much confidence in future David.

Like future David is going to understand what's causing this drinking problem. He's going to take care of that shit. I'm going to drink now, but there is a David in the future, the near future, hopefully, who he's going to take over this shit. I also fuck over future David a lot Because there's times where I'd be like Oh my God, David, you have to get to work At 8 in the morning, dude, it is one

And you're like starting drinking now And I'd be like, well, that sounds like a future David problem Even though future David is only like seven hours away It's like seven hours away David's gonna have to deal with that And seven hour day away David comes And he's just like, well, you should drink some more or you're not It's like that sounds like really bad when David gets to work at 9.30 You know, that's a 9.30 in the morning, David, problem.

And I think that, you know, that happened a lot with the delusion. Like, some people have delusions that they're not alcoholic. And some people have delusions that I used to think that, I used to almost have this, like, stupid pride where I was like, I'm not as dumb enough to believe I'm not an alcoholic. I just don't care. And, you know, the sense of, like, I hate my life and I'm just partaking this thing. But I'm not, I'm not confused about who I am. And so, like, no, you're still delusional because you.

Don't think in this weird way, you don't think that you're going to keep being this way. You think you'll eventually get better or something. Somehow it's going to happen. Not now, but it will happen. That's just as delusional. It's like you're not, it's like play it out. Like, is this going to any place good? All your history has proven that this only escalates and gets worse.

So it, like, why you should just stop right now? Like it doesn't show you're ever going to be more ready to quit than you are now. you're never going to that future david's not coming where i'm ready to quit like at least for me and i know for most people that never comes that this this nice idealized version of yourself that's ready to stop because what because something happens like my daughter got married and i saw the beauty of life and now i'm ready to put it down like no that doesn't happen man like you just imagine this future version of yourself that's that's going to be ready to and i did that like future david seriously will take care of this as much as i fuck him over he's going to know what to do man it's like as much as

past and present Dave have no fucking clue what to do. The future Dave will take good. And a massive amount of empirical evidence that shows the future David does not exist. Yeah, but he's going to get it. Yeah. Well, all of that in mind, then I guess

the next question is, how did you eventually come to get sober and how difficult has that process been looking back over a year? Yeah. So a big thing for me was that there was so many times, like iterations of me trying to get sober.

There was times where I had just the heat on me and I quote unquote had to get sober, but I didn't really want to. And then there was times where I wanted to get sober, but there was no real external thing pushing me towards it. And then there was times where it was like a good way to illustrate this is that there was times I was going to AA when I was on a court card,

you know, when like probation says you have to go to this many weeks, meetings a week. There was times where I have to, had to go there and I did not want to go there or I did not want to really get sober. There was times where I was on a court card and I really did want to get sober. Like regardless of the law consequences, I really did want me to get sober. And then there was times where I wasn't on a court card and I wanted to get sober and they still didn't work out.

And what was happening was that through this miserable process of trial and error, I was just at least trying to pick up things that I knew were helping me and drop things that weren't. And what really impeded this process was delusions even in sobriety about what was going to help me get sober. Like, you know, I talked about before about like if I fixed this depression issue, you know, that so much of that was just, I guess trial and error because you learned something from it, but it just seemed like a waste of time because it was just like you're just, you're trying to solve this with the wrong tools and the wrong reasoning.

and so you're back to where you're at and in your mind you go I tried everything and it's like apparently you didn't like um I remember this in a truly masterful um event of self pity I went to treatment and I had done everything that I thought I was supposed to to like stay sober like I was going to meetings and had a sponsor and was doing these other like well-being activities and everything and I remember I got there I was just like dude I don't fucking understand this man I was like everything you're about to suggest to me in this treatment center. I've been here before.

My problem is not a lack of knowledge. Like, I was doing everything I was supposed to. I don't know how I'm here. I don't know what is even going to stop me. It's like, one of the counters was like, well, apparently you weren't doing everything you needed to because here you are. And I was like, fuck you, man. But it was,

and it was truly you can learn lessons. If you're a chronic, like relapser like I was, you can you can learn and relapse is kind of a relative term you know when i i say that the i have like you know um like a year and over a year and two months like my longest stint of sobriety was three months and that was with the help of an ankle bracelet and i eventually would cut off and after some um oscar mire health that did not work by the way okay i'm going to ask

yeah for all those listening out there put down the ham it's not working but um but i i this the thing is is that what was important for me was i really like honesty was so key because i had to be like okay there are things that you don't think you are going to work for you and there are things that you think won't work for you because you also you kind don't want to do them and what is true like there are plenty of things that are suggested by a lot of people i'm sure we'll cover this in the upcoming topic there are plenty of things that are suggested of you that just don't work for people but there are things that might but people say they won't work because they just kind of don't want to do them and and this in a sense is this is not

a person saying like well I don't want to get sober that much like I don't I'm not willing to do that like in their mind they really are just like there's another way I can go about this or even something as simple as like being able to reach out for help like I'm not going to do that I can I'm fine I don't want to burden anybody or I don't want to bug it or you know what I know if I call them they're not going to say anything that even helps me at all like kind of just doing those things you're not saying like I don't want recovery or I don't want to be sober you're just saying no but it's like you haven't even tried it yet there's no harm in literally trying it and so I became kind of like the yes man to like every suggestion and then with like real honesty assessing if it was helpful or if I didn't want to do it or anything and it was a lot of it was a trial and error process. to where, you know, I don't think I have it perfectly, and I've struggled a lot, but I've learned a lot of, like, pitfalls of things that I kind of want to do or things that put me at risk or being even just very cognizant of being able to know how relapses, like, started.

Like, one thing is it's not even, you know, I talked about, like, chasing that instant gratification in the same way. They're just more, like, acceptable or less harmful things. another thing that I had learned was just in terms of pure behavior not anything to do with substances or that reward thing was

if I start lying I'm pushing more towards relapse if I just start like lying it has nothing to do with David how many energy drinks did you have or how much have you whacked off or you know anything like that if I just start

lying because I don't want to do something I was supposed to if I just do that stuff that's, I can recall and that's how like relapses start because I just started getting into this behavior that is in this way like acquiescing to the other things

that make me go back to it and just things like you really have to again it takes a lot of honesty to yourself it's like I think it's like isolation I'm a person that like really values time by myself and it's just in whatever context it is it can be something that's really enjoyable

and things I need to do, like writing or meditation or just, you know, whatever. And then there's things where it's really dangerous for me. And I can easily conflate those things. You know, I can easily be like, well, I spend time. Like, there's, you know, I'm not, I just don't want to talk to that person. I don't want to do that thing. I'm going to write or I'm going to do something. And I end up not actually doing those things.

I just don't want to be away from people. And it's totally fine. Obviously, you don't have to be around people or you don't have to do everything that's asked of you. But really investigating like, all right, all right, you know what? all right you can just have this time to yourself kind of veg out cool let's not make this a habit so the next time you do this thing we're going to need to i guess i'm breaking the thing you just talked about the inner monologue but it's also just an easy way to say this stuff of course shut up and um it's it's like really having that thing of like all right man you're i don't know you you did this before and this could be a start or something and like really pinpointing it there but just like kind of learning it's really interesting yeah just learning these things about yourself something is simple i know it sounds crazy and believe me to be sober you don't have to carry this hypervigilance with you all the time but just something is as simple as like man dude

i'm tired i like i got off work i'm gonna have a nap and it's like all right cool the next day i don't have a nap it's like how about this how about you you don't have a nap for like a couple days from now let's just be wary of that and it's something as simple as that but that i think that also goes into like things like of mental health for me too like they can be naps are totally cool not anti nap right but with my predilection towards like depression you know sometimes that can be something that at least flexes the muscles to start engaging that starts priming the pump and just think like I said you don't need to have this crazy to begin to even do a nap every day yes to get into the flow of I'm depending on this thing now every day to get into the flow too

of just like in you know being kind of tired and not to If not examining, are you just actually tired or just like, I didn't feel like crap. I want to just do a quick time travel here, just time travel an hour and a half. Starting to do these little behaviors, again, that have nothing to do with alcohol or drugs, but they, they move towards that. And really just being, having that awareness that you have to, I mean, God, hope for all you guys out there that suffer, like, hope you don't have to do the trial and error I did. But I was also really still wanting to do drugs and alcohol, so I was able to, like, let a lot of these things lapse.

too. Yeah. That's incredibly subtle, and I think it does speak to a forced depth of introspection that you've had to go through in this process of addiction and fighting it to the point where you can get, where you can start to know your own mechanics so well that even the nap, or the one, you know, the nap is such a natural thing. Animals do it. It's so obvious.

People say it's healthy for you, et cetera, but you can see, like, what I'm really trying to do is escape. Yes. Yep. And so I want to black out for an hour and a half because I feel like shit. Right. And then even that can be the snowball. That's incredibly subtle.

And it feels like that level of self-knowledge can only come through a very protracted struggle that is forcing you to become minutely aware of the mechanics that, you know, once they start grinding those gears are sort of building up that momentum that can then push you back into the substance itself. Right. And, you know, the thing is, too, is that you, You also, I think, you'll just get a sense of yourself, and you, I don't know, there's like a, at least for me, there was like moods I'd be in where, like, I would just kind of, it would just anything that, that had a whiff that smelled of like some of those negative behaviors that would, that were just a part of my addictive behaviors, just kind of doing things to step away from those. And it may seem like this is a lot of like psychological examination, but I think naturally you come to understand like you know when you're being a little bit lazy or you know, like, oh, I'm going to be selfish. And there's nothing like against those things.

But at least when you start in recovery, I would say at least within the first year, you kind of have to be hypervigilant of those things. Just because of what you, what your disability is in this function, you know, for self-betterment, that's great to do those things. but for what's on the line for alcoholics and addicts you might want to incorporate that at least when you're very vulnerable. Like that crazy amount of high pro

introspection would go into especially if I was like in my first month, second month, third month, four month, or like I remember around seven months I started into the mode of what they psychologically called the fuckets and I could

I could there was just these little traces of just like I I know what this is And I tried myself It's like this has nothing to do With wanting to do drugs or alcohol You're just in this mood It's like all right

Well you know what You know it's kind of bad Anyway so just not do it Even if it has nothing to do with drugs and alcohol Just don't do it It's just like People are allowed to do It's like

Dude you are in a different realm right now You You did this shit for like 15 years And if you think you've completely changed In seven months You're an idiot This is a great deal You may think this is unfair

But Jesus Christ is Christ, if I had to, like, work as hard to, like, get some sense of normally for the amount of time I did this shit, that would be unfair. I'd be like, I'm giving up, man. Like, the same thing with the amount of effort you had to put in to, like, keep up your addiction or the drinking, like, no way I could put that much effort into being sober. It's like, luckily, I don't have to. Yeah.

Wow. That's incredibly, yeah, fascinating stuff. I do want to finish or close the loop on just, we've talked about how you've gotten sober and how you've been able to maintain it on that south dakota thing we never fully figured out how you get were pulled back from that particular ledge talking about being in the hotel looking at the grain elevator drinking not having a plan how eventually did you get roped back in by family to come back home and and not fucking kill yourself um and so actually i i i ran out of money and i i ran out of alcohol and it's just like all right man are we are we really going to do this and i start

I started walking around. And to be honest, I would love to give some big inside I had or big moment where I could change. But I don't know, man. I literally, I was like walking around, shoeless. I don't know where my shoes went. It's a tiny fucking hotel. I don't know how I lost them anywhere.

It's like they don't even have underneath the bed in this one. It's just like a cement block, but I lost them. I was just walking around. I didn't have any money to pay for the hotel. And I just started like walking around. And I was like, am I going to go do this? and I just noticed people saw me and then I saw a cop was driving,

but I was like, I don't know, I'm like, shoeless in Seattle here. Like, I'm, and I probably don't look very great. Like, and I was just like, I wanted to just sit down and this was right in the beginning of when shit shut down in the pandemic. Oh, shit.

And so I walked his hotel, which was somehow open and there was just lady in this mask, like, sitting there. And I literally, I probably looked like I was being a dick, but I literally just was like, I pulled my shirt over my head and tried to, like, tie it because I didn't have a mask. And I was like, I was looking at it. Maybe I'll use a sock. Seriously.

I was like, and I just sat there. And this lady was just like, do you need help? What can I help you with? And I was just, I don't know, can I just sit down? And she's like, are you all right? And she's like, she was nice enough to be like, I might call the police if you're not right. And I go, okay. And then eventually they just, they came by and they talked to me, asked me what was going on.

and it was at that point I was like, you were drunk at this? Are you drunk there? I was still an aviated, yes. What's crazy is, again, the way tolerance works is that for some people, the level I was at, I, like,

they would be absolutely shmammered. I mean, you hear all the time, people get to opiates or alcohol where they are drunk at levels when they get pulled over driving. Pretty alert, too, at a limit of like 0.39 or at a limit that would kill another person.

So I would say I was like incredibly drunk to normal standards. But I was still pretty cognizant of stuff at the very least. And when the cop came, I basically was like, all right, well, I'm not, now it's too late to kill myself. And I don't really, there was still just a me just kind of meandering around where there was these moments where I was like, do it, do it. And I was ready to do it. And I just didn't, I just didn't quite do it yet. There's something in one of the questions I'll address that that helped me in terms of that respect.

yeah all right but then you eventually that cop got in contact with your family got you back home your family is obviously worried about you yeah they couldn't contact you they didn't have no fucking clue where you were yeah no one knew where i was well um so i guess we can talk about a little bit i talked about what you've learned to maybe you want to touch on this not skip this question what you've learned about yourself and your addiction you touched on a lot of that but is there anything else you want to say before we move on about stuff you've learned about yourself um i would say for people that are trying to get sober

be ready to someone sounds so stupid be ready to learn who you are because if you've been doing this for a long time like even down to simple stuff where I was like I like doing this thing

like there was one guy like me and you went fishing and I did that drunk and I did that sober but there was one guy who's like I'm a big fisher guy I love fishing and then he started doing it sober was like it's fucking It sucks, man. Look, that guy's fun. I was drinking at work, and I was in sales, and I was just like, this is fine. Like, I can do this.

And then when I had to start doing it sober, I was like, uh-uh. I can't. Like, there's things like that where you just learn, oh, it was only drinking, unfortunately, with relationships a lot, too. There's like, oh, no, I actually can't put up with this person. Like, there's things you learn. And then there's also, like, remember I talked about the Masloff, like, inverted pyramid thing. There's, when that flips upside down and then you take out that lower level and

you start to go have a lot of these things like what do I actually want to do like some people are always set in their lives they're working a job they have family and things like that but they're just like I don't know what I'm interested in I don't know what I want to pursue

maybe should I start going to church should I start working out like Jesus Christ man I'm like 48 and I don't even know who I am like that that's okay but you know that a lot of that comes with it especially if this has been something that you've done like for a very long time

And in the sense of, like, learning about myself, I, you know, I've learned more about my, more about myself in what my potential is and what, like, negative parts are about me, too. Like, one weird thing is that since being sober, I'm more angry than I am when I was drunk. But at least it's an anger because I give a fuck about things. You know, like there's, I was like, wow, actually, I really don't, don't like this. And, wow, that actually, I think, hold on, let me scrounge around in there. I think I have values. Like, what the fuck is this? dude these things are lame i have ideals no like so there's i don't know just as a broader thing

people trying to get sober be be ready for that and and one thing is embrace that you can use that to a positive way you can be like you know what let's let's start over and let's there's there's things out there i don't even know that would make me incredibly like fulfilled and i you may surprise yourself what you're capable of when you're not drinking all the time Like, actually, you can be pretty capable of shit. Imagine what you've done now. Imagine what you can accomplish if, you know, you don't have to, like, pound a handle of vodka a day.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll talk a little bit more about advice and a question or two. If you have anything else to say to people out there struggling, we'll get to that in a second. I do want to touch on AA because we've had a few guests over, I've actually had a guest a few years ago who struggled with drinking. I don't, not nearly to the extent that you went through. but they personally found AA unhelpful for various reasons

and I think your experience might differ some people responding to that episode obviously disagreed with it and said that AA was incredibly essential for them personally and of course when it comes to something as messy as addiction there's going to be as many different ways to solve it as there are people who are undergoing it just as there are just as many ways of engaging in alcoholism

as there are alcoholics right everybody has their own little way of doing it um so you know with with all of that in mind what are your personal thoughts and experiences with alcoholics anonymous and it has it helped you do you find it to be even as somebody who i'm pretty sure you're an atheist uh do you find it to be helpful yeah well it's confusing at first i thought it was atheist anonymous and i was like oh no no it's about this wait what i was a fucking stupid joke oh i lost it you claim me to be an atheist and i thought no we're not even going to don't leave that out they edit that out let the awkward to sit in for that.

So, A.A., as I mentioned, I have a ton of experience with it. It was a, you know, sometimes, I remember there's this one asshole of me. He was like, you know, no one's fortunate you to be here. I picked up my court card and held in the air. I go, hey, what's this? I legally have to be here, man.

Like, I have to be here more than you do. Yeah. But to the larger point, you will find plenty of personalities like that in A.A., you'll find plenty of meetings. that are like, dude, I can't express to you. There are meetings I've gone to where I was like, I desperately need to get sober.

But if I need to do this to get sober, I'm not getting sober because I hate this shit. Like, the thing is, A.A. is incredibly valuable to me. But the thing about it is that it's not about the program of it. The funny thing is, for me, what is more important rather than the program, is just the venue of it. See, the thing is it, what's incredibly important is to be able to have social interaction

with others that suffer from these experiences because, I mean, the, the catharsis of it is invaluable, being able to talk about these things and getting, you know, some people need, you know, especially when they start hitting years of sobriety, maybe they say they need reminders of what they could go back to and things like that, that, those things of interacting with other people and addressing your life in accordance to addiction or alcoholism

or struggles that you face now that's so important and to be honest for the most part AA is like the only game in town for that and the thing is that I mean there are some other programs out there so like I'm you know I live in Omaha

which isn't like a massive city I mean it's in Nebraska but it's got like half a million in population there's like a week there's like over 400 AA meetings for like things like smart recovery or I forgot what even the other one was called

like a different way of doing it there was two I think now one of them is now defunct like there's just no it it is hard to establish like one thing too is and this sounds like actually a cheap joke but it's true

it's free like there's no and there's not like appointments or co-pays or shit you got to do like that's really important so it's hard to establish so rare in the society it's hard to establish other you know other programs for this stuff with with what like with what funding with with what way can you establish that so the thing is is that and I feel I have like incredible sympathy for people who live in smaller populated areas and they have like three A meetings a week and they run by the same people and they don't like those people that then you

totally just to be like dude AA fucking blows because that's what you know of it and there is a lot of meetings I would go to and this is what I talked about again about like the idea

of willingness I had done some AA meetings like dude I hate this stuff and it's just like have you tried others you're like no it's like are you sure they're all like that

yeah it's like which ones did you go to the ones closest to my house it's like okay man again honestly here what are you actually willing to do so I would go to other ones and just the difference is the people there and just how the meet like some people a lot of a

meetings are really supposedly topic driven like what the topics brought out to like discuss and usually it's not usually it goes off the rails pretty quickly people just talk about what they want to talk about um i would go to meetings and i would absolutely hate them because they were just like repetition of like cliches and platitudes and some people truly like that And I'm not saying that in condescending way. Some people truly enjoy that experience. Some were in a church basement, and they acted like they were in a church basement. Like they were very, you know, I know a lot of people, me included, had struggled with such a long time for the God part of it.

And it's like, no, we call it a higher power. It's like, okay, but we all know what you mean, man. Like, let's not hide the ball here. And, you know, that, like, I would let that, I'd be like, now this is, this is bullshit. Because of that one thing. And yet there were so many meetings I went to where it was. never even brought up but I like I let that annoy me enough um but the trying different meetings and if you try meetings in different areas they they reflect kind of like they reflect a couple

of things one will reflect the culture of the community around it like truly with like the church basement ones and you can imagine in certain parts of Nebraska or um in certain more like in other areas the people surrounding can actually reflect in the meetings of themselves so you can get a totally different experience. The other is, it's just the types of meetings that are set up. The people that just, like I joked about, like, it's close to my house, just through random coincidence of people, some get off work around this time, and it's close to them. So just types of people go to this meeting, and that may change the whole dynamic of

meeting, and it could be a great one. Again, it hasn't really, like, there's other things in the program about, like, reading the big book, which I don't like too much because it's like, okay, it's not a Bible, folks. And then, you know, there's things like. sponsorship some people hate the idea of but a lot of it is what you make it like there's some people who had idea of sponsorship i was like that no um and then there was that was your original feeling yes because of the way it was portrayed to me but then you're like you'll have a lot of people like no no it's not like that at all that person's a fucking idiot and then you just have

these there's a lot of different ways that you can can exercise and there's some people you can go to meetings where they make it something like this is what it's about and then it's so funny if you go to a different one with different people you can be like Oh, no, they're full of shit. Like, there's plenty of people are like, I hate those meetings over there. I hate those people. I hope they drink again.

You know, and the thing is, is that, you know, to a broader level, what I was talking about before, about the venue, if you could do it on your own in a different way, Godspeed and higher power blessed, you know. But for the most part, honestly, if you would have been able to do that,

you probably would have been able to do that by now. Most of us love doing stuff on our own terms. So if you were able to get sober on your own terms, again, whatever. But, and I just think it's important. Like, it's great in my life to interacting with people in that way. And, like, so I wouldn't say that, to put it, to kind of explain it, A.A. is not this huge part of my life and what has helped my sobriety. The meetings I go to, those meetings are the huge part.

Those people are the sense of community. Right. Right, and I mean the particular meetings, too. I don't even mean like the... Particular communities. Right. I mean those, like, I go to three A meetings a week now. After like a lot of searching, I found three ones that I totally love.

And it's those people there. Like, some people like bigger meetings. I don't like those. Like, I don't... I like the smaller meetings I go to. And again, this is my preference. Other things certainly help other people. But in my preference, I like these because they're more like a support group and you get to carry the story.

You get to check in on how people are doing in their lives. it creates like some sense of accountability to them because people want to see you there though some people actually call you if they haven't seen you in three weeks and they haven't heard from you would be like everything cool you know it's the same people too it's the same people and unfortunately it's okay it's it's like a roster of about the same starters and then you get a lot of people that jump on it off and that's what i was too i go to one meet one of i go to one meeting now where it was it's nice in this weird way i was constantly back and forth would go for like a month and then was out for like two years And I'd see these people

And they always welcomed me back Like there was a sense of belonging I'd go to another one that I now chair And this is interesting It was it was like advertised as like a free thinker's meeting Like secular thought or different thought You can even talk about like Buddha if you want I know

One of those weird brown gods You can talk about you know I mean we all know the one that's white with the beard is correct But you could even entertain us with your weird folklore the white blue-eyed guy is the real guy yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean you can you can talk about your incorrect gods and it was advertised by like that

and I loved that meaning but it wasn't like we have like a different like there's a literature you can do to like discuss the topic we have a book that's completely different like it will just have like passages from like you know Nietzsche or Bruce Lee or Jung or just even one of those stinky brown god

like buddhist guys but um the funny the meeting isn't good because we discuss those things most of the time we don't even discuss what we just read about it was it's been good

because the free thinkers thing or the one that's kind of different and less orthodox the type of people it attracts people that are looking for a different way attracts like a group of people that you happen you know like I said unfortunately

there's a super high turnover rate you'll see people you'll get really close, you know, learn their story, and then they'll be gone. And, you know, there's a lot of people where I, you know, they're on because of a court card and they're like, no, I'm really, really, you know, alcoholic and I need this in my life. And then when they get off it, they're gone. And the moment there's no more force. Yeah, which is, you know, dude, totally fine. I'm not like, you traitor or, you let me. No. But the, the idea, again, it wasn't even about like the program of it just the type of people it attracted to it made it like into

this great meeting it wasn't even about from the book we read from or what it's about it was just it attracted these types of people so that's what's made it a great meeting and any like there's so many variables that can that can do that and so the thing about a a is that you can find a lot that do that of stuff you really don't like and you can have experiences that are really negative because of that. If you can find like, my biggest suggestion would be like, man, if you can replicate that social interaction,

the therapeutic nature of discussing with people about your life in terms of, you know, alcoholism and addiction, if you can find that anywhere else, dude, totally go for it. Because that's what it's about. That's what it's about. That community, that support. There's like step work you can do. Like, I

work the steps, I guess you could say, but really it's just like meeting with a person and just talking about the subject. And that's not to say, There's, like, good principles and ideas in, like, the 12-step program, of course. But, like, you know, it's more about it's just bringing people to at least have the conversation, so to speak. Like, it's not even about, like, going through this doctrine of stuff. It's just, like, the fact that it's a venue for people to be able to do that. Like, honestly, I wish there was, like, an AA type of thing for, like, mental health stuff.

Yeah, fuck you. Like, you know what, fuck it. Let's just call it, like, a 12-step program for depression, or we had merely, we were powerless over, depression and just just so it's something accessible that you could have people come and talk about i would fucking love that and again it wouldn't even you could literally just replace alcohol with depression have your big book and whatever it wouldn't make any fucking sense and it would be stupid but it would get the job done of it would be available to people and it would bring people together to do that dude that would be that would be so helpful there's periods of my life as you might

know where I've had extended periods of extreme mental health suffering of anxiety and depression, daily crippling, and literally I wanted help, not even medicine necessarily, but therapy, to talk to a professional. I could not afford it. So, you know, all through my 20s and even now I don't have health care, if I go through mental health crisis, the idea that I could go get help is not even on the table. No, you cannot afford medicine. You can't afford weekly therapy sessions. You've got to grind this out yourself. And just having a community of people to go to, in a society in particular where nothing is fucking free and all sense of community has been systematically disbanded, you know, and privatized and everybody is a neoliberal individual subject now. Having a place

where you can go for free and get a sense of community is anathema. I mean, that in of itself is sort of countercultural in its own right. And I think a lot of the confusion about do you support A. Do you not support A.A. comes down to treating it like a monolith, you know, like it's one thing. But what you're saying here is it's as different as the community and the individual meeting is. And that's what really shapes, you know, what you can get out of it. You can go to terrible ass AA meetings, terrible, you know, communities or certain people that have an emphasis of something that does not resonate with you. But that's not A.A. family, you just got to go find the right thing. So if somebody's out there that has been to an

a meeting or two has found it not helpful or alienating or off-putting, your suggestion might be keep poking around, keep trying to find a meeting that might speak to you specifically. Right. And like the funny thing is I'm being pro-AA without being pro-AA in a sense of like, to me it's like it's truly beautiful to see something in society where people that are getting off work where you have like white collar people, blue collar dudes. You put like if you want even, put a dollar in a bucket thing and that's all you got to do and you don't even have to do that and they yet they weirdly enough all have same issues with something weirdly there's no sense of class or race or demographic it doesn't affect and it's actually accessible so now we're

not separated from this with like private meetings we have to pay for we can all talk about this and i think it actually destroys that when some meetings and this is my own opinion but when some a meetings are so structured in a sense like that it's like destroying the sense of what makes it great and beautiful and it's just like but no this was written in the doctrine i was like fuck your doctrine dude like this is about helping people and just it's nowhere else like it's you know what if you really don't like it then i don't know join a like a facebook group or something or try to find you can meet with people because of covid there was like so many um zoom meetings and that that's interesting because some people that does not resonate with them all

they're like i don't like this one bit and i don't blame them like if there's like one there's something with like 80 people on and your screens off. It's just like, you're just hearing ramblings into the night. Like, I don't know. It wouldn't seem like that for me. But if you wouldn't create like a smaller one that you could talk with people or one that's like themed, I haven't looked too much into it because I didn't need to for a while. And I just, I like so much the interaction in person just to be able to see someone,

like be in the same room with them, you know. But like you could certainly, it would break down to stuff. Like, especially if you, there was like, you wanted to share. some of the same demographics of people like, you know, LGBTQ people that like have that same problem, they find community and that. And the other thing

about A, the one last thing I'll say too is you also have to recognize that some reasons are shaped like that is actually through an inconsequential or an indirect filtration system of a lot of people that get sober or that go to them a lot or just like

older people. And you know, if there's things that like, that's why I think it's also hard for a lot of younger people too when they're trying to get sober they don't, there's such a disconnect between some like 65 year old dude who has like 20 years and a young fellow who's like 23

and all his friends are like still out partying and drinking and he's trying to be sober it's just like I don't know man your words are nice and it sounds good but dude I need to I always felt way like even right now I feel more connected to the person who's still out there just

drinking away and wants to get sober than I do with a person who I was like 20 years of pride because you're closer to that side of the I would in a weird way I would much rather want to talk with that for as long as they weren't like slosh which I've been on like help lines where people call me and like I need help man I'm like here I'm here listening's like you got me to Taco Bell I'm like nope but um but you know what I mean like that there's also weird ways I guess I'll go back it's just the idea of the community that it's around even to you know I liked later night meetings because you get just certain types of people that would go to them i there's a while um i went to like some of the n a meetings just because i liked kind of the type of of people in that particular

location around that community that went to them so you know a lot of people don't they don't have that like i said when i sympathy for the person in like the smaller town they just they don't have that option because there's just not that much variety of where to go and you know i did a video about this where i talk about you know how to maybe remedy that but also what issues can cause or be attributed to just not having this election. Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Are you a sponsor of somebody?

No, no. You have to be a certain time, you have to be sober for a certain amount of time to become eligible to be a sponsor? How does that work? Again, this is what's beautiful. A lot of people will be like, absolutely. And some people are like, no. You know, it's, um, no, I, even that's dependent on which.

At least on, like, with one group on, I had to be sober for a year to, like, chair the meeting and there was that but I don't think I had a year before where I started doing it um I just you know what's funny I had some people when I was like earlier they would be like hey man would kind of like what you said would you be my sponsor and I'd be like how many months do you have I was like

well I have about four months I was like well you have more than me so probably not you know I would I would happily like I would happily like take on a sponsor but again the meetings I go to because they work for me there's, you know, some influx of people, but there's not a lot either. So I may not have a lot of what you'd say opportunities, but there are the meetings I like to go to.

It's what helpful, so I'm not going to, like, you know, make sense. I draw away from that. Absolutely. So I know you touched on this a little bit, but is there any more advice that, or any specific advice that you would give to anyone out there listening right now who is struggling with alcohol themselves? And then we'll talk about advice for people who have family members struggling. like a third person perspective. But for somebody out there who's struggling with an addiction or alcoholism themselves right now, what advice would you give to somebody?

As hard as that question is. No, it's all right. This is going to seem very weirdly, like, singular. But it's, I mentioned earlier, I'd reference this. If the one thing, there's a lot of things I won't say super, like, concretely because of how much variables there is in this shit. but honestly if you're really struggling with alcohol in particular um if you have a firearm in your house like if you if you aren't depressed you're just really struggling with it if you're if you're like i my life sucks or this is really hard but i'm not suicidal or anything like that you know um

and you may you could totally have justifiable reasons that you want to have one or that you like to have one um or that you need to have one um and this is no stance on any gun i don't anything about guns at all but if if you are really struggling again you may not feel suicidal at all but i would just seriously recommend you get the firearm at airhouse because it's too easy that's split second you and there's these weird things that can happen in your mind with drinking where you can get into this very dark and fatalistic place out of like nowhere and you know there's i mean there's also things just too more practically like if you do get pretty blotto and you can do

stupid things or there's accidents like stuff like that you know just like fucking around with it or not knowing you know like it's in with drugs too you know I'm not saying it so much because like you're going to think the mailman is a CIA JJ and start shooting at them but you know

something could happen I say this specifically more with alcoholics at least in my experience that those weird shifts or those very irrational impulsive things it's a threat to doing something irreversional irreversible and what I was saying when I was like talking about South Dakota

I truly honestly believe that if I had a if I was just a firearm owner for whatever reason or if I was a hunter or something I would not be alive so sorry I wasn't like you know what start working out start doing the keto diet or something

mine is more like don't blow your brain that absolutely but I think that that is important because because it's it just becomes so fucking easy in a moment of insanity or desperation or just, you know, those moments when you're just, you want to crawl the fuck out of your skin. Or as you said earlier,

I want to fucking disappear. And if it's just right there and it's so totalizing and its ability to wipe you out, yeah, that's obviously. And remember we talked about those like crazy ways we get talked into things from seeming out of nowhere. Like, you know, in a jokey way about like the laughing at, you know the lunch meat thing and then 20 minutes later in the grocery store you know that's a funny

version of it there's also very that i've experienced a lot very not funny versions of that too absolutely and that you can't the problem is is that you may say to yourself again nothing against like gun ownership but you may say to yourself well i'm not i'm not going to do that it's like you're saying that you're you're going to have like a pattern of something you won't do and something that has made you cross everything you said you wouldn't yeah great point uh any anything else yeah okay less fucking dark um i i would i would i would i recommend And there is people that, this is going to sound crazy, but there's people that may be like listening that are really struggling with alcoholism but have no plans on quitting. And that may seem weird.

It's like, why would you listen to something like this? And I totally understand it because I did that too. Like there's almost a weird like self-flagellation I think some people do. Well, they'll watch like intervention or something like that. Maybe it's because it's like I, it's comforting to see someone struggling with what I'm doing. I'm not alone in all the crazy, embarrassing, shameful things. or honestly just because we're humans like at least that person's worse

or just listening to stuff about recovery when I had no plans of doing it if there's anybody out there that's that is you know that's like that and you don't have really any plans of quitting at all but you know it's just destroying you you know I would

hope the best for you and I hope that at the very least in your mind you don't have to wait for a rock bottom and you don't have to wait for something to go wrong like it in the most part if you if you're an alcoholic like I am just keep in mind it will get to that point and I if I was listening right now I'd be like fuck this guy I hate this now more with the jokes and stuff like but it's just it's something I feel like I'm I have I have to say and if you know if not

like I said just at least do the very precautions it may seem simple but like you know Just be careful. If you're going to keep, you know, drinking, just be careful with anything that you reasonably can. You know, something like the firearm or not, like, volunteering for things where you put other people, you know, in risk. Like, if it was just, like, driving, you know,

your friends' kids somewhere, just because you want to keep up appearances, you offer to do it. Like, don't do that. And I've done those, like, horrible things where I just, I wanted to, like, look like I was appearing normal. Like, at least cut those out of your life.

Like, if you're going to keep drinking, that's fine. But just watch. out for that type of stuff. And I only say that because I know I've done that too. Because I'm trying to prove myself that I can be a functional alcoholic. For people that are really trying to quit or find recovery,

I would say one of the, one of the, some people offer this suggestion of like try to sabotage yourself. So try to you know, go out and tell people you're struggling with it. So now they know it. So now like if you start trying to do it, you know, are kind of

sabotaging yourself. Problem is. A little harder. You're, you're, you're, you're, setting yourself up to have a little more pressure on you yeah and that can sometimes only just lead to like there's totally been times where i did that and like five minutes i'm like fuck i'm an idiot yeah god damn there's been time where i showed my girlfriend where my bottle was and like literally three hours later that night i was like damn it but i would say one thing is beyond all the stuff that you normally hear try to positively satisfy yourself so try to involve yourself in

things where you're around people like one to try to get rid of like isolation and it doesn't have to anything recovery related try to just involve yourself where you have some thing that it makes you a part of other people and people expect you to be there so it can seriously be anything like a a a book club or it could be something where a project at with some friends you have with work or it can you know if you have just some sort of social interactions that like have have you you like I got to go to that like even you know even you may just blow that off and you're like, all right, I'm not going to do that anymore. Just try at least those things.

This is just advice I'm giving that wouldn't be like what you'd normally here. Like the bear, like, you know, try A, A, try this stuff, you know, all that stuff. Exercise, get sleep. Yeah. And also one other thing, there is not a book or a video series or instructional thing that is going to save you. So there's a lot of those things

that are offered to alcoholics and addicts and it's not going to save you. There's things that can open your mind, but if there's anything that says this is going to save you, leave them a bad comment and move on because that's bullshit. Now, anyway, subscribe to my video series. Well, yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit

because I think, well, it is true, though, but that in moments of it, let's say even when I'm struggling with, I'm a deep in an anxiety episode or I'm deep in a depressive episode, one of the things that helps the most is literally, and it doesn't even make that much sense, is just, as you said earlier,

to tap into other people struggling with that, so I'll often find myself, like, on forums with anxiety. yeah and just as i'm anxious i'm reading about other people's anxiousness and that alone they're not offering me solutions but just to know that you're not alone in what you're struggling can just give you that little bit of breathing space that little sense of like okay maybe this you know it's not just me and i'm personally fucked up but this is actually a human thing other humans are going through this and there's just some comfort some genuine comfort in just engaging with those voices and on your on your YouTube channel that you started recently

No Chaser, which we'll link to in the episode, and we can talk a little bit more as we wrap this up about that. It's one of those options, somebody who's been through the shit and particularly desperate, dark, and intense forms of addiction, opiate, and then an extended alcohol

there's wisdom that is gained through that suffering. And just engaging with that and listening to that can be comforting, can be also instructive, and can sometimes be that little light, at the end of the tunnel that can help you start getting your own shit together and moving towards sobriety yourself so i think that those things are very helpful oh yeah absolutely yeah the joke i was

kind of making about like the people like something that says it will it will save you like if if there's things that give you more information or give you an idea of the experience or just like you know things like that's that's totally cool what i mean is there's unfortunately a lot of things out there that'll be like this is what they don't want you to know about like that you should already be able to spot it i don't mean to insult any of your guys as intelligence you should anything, the problem is it's so appealing to be like, oh, this is something I can incorporate and this will, if it

advertised that, it will change everything. I mean, you're totally right. Like, even something is silly as like, especially with mental illness, stuff, like a meme group about it. Yeah, for real. Even there's a weird amount of comfort in that, that's totally right, but like, understand the biggest point I wanted to make with that is that a lot about getting better is, it's

an inside job. It's something you're going to have to do a lot by yourself. And I would just say you get the help from others. So, back to the suggestion of, like, positively advertising yourself. Give yourself like, you know, social commitments. Yeah. Very, very helpful. Now, somebody who has somebody in their life, they themselves are not struggling with addiction or alcoholism, but somebody very close to them, who they love deeply is. And that is a very rot territory, especially if you yourself have never gone through it, because a lot of people

turn to like, if I just shame them enough. If I give them ultimatums, then, you know, either you stop or you're out of my life sort of thing, then that, that's, that's tough love. And that's what the addict needs. Personally, maybe that's work for some people. I've found that is not at all conducive in the people in my life that have alcoholism. That has never been particularly helpful. I could be wrong. I mean, you might disagree with me.

But what would you say to somebody who has an addict in their life that they really want to help? All right. So, yeah, I'll break this down in, because I think it varies a little bit because you could be talking about, like, you know, people that are within your life and people that you are dependent on in your life, too. I mean, that's really important. I would say, you know, actually my, my mom's approach was really good. And she didn't like consciously, like, constructed. I think it's just kind of the way she was that she was like, you know, because the other side of like the ultimatum stuff is like being an enabler, right?

Right, right, sure. Letting it, like, continue. And her, the way she kind of did things was that, like, as long as you are trying, even if you fail, as long as you're trying, as long as, like, if I come up to you and you can verbalize what you're at least like what you plan to do. As long as like I talk to you and there's like evidence of things

you're at least attempting. Like as long as you're making efforts, I will support you. If you keep failing, you know, but you're still trying to do something. If you're just isolating and you're still just drinking, then no. If I, you know,

if I talk to you about what your game plan is and you have no idea and you haven't thought about it, then you're out. If you are lying about something like that, actually, if I ask you to do something and you admit that you just hadn't been working on it and you actually sound remorseful, that is actually a form of trying because you're being honest when it's hard to be. Doing that, like, the idea I think is really good to you, I will support you if you are trying.

But the moment that you just stop, then we're done. Like, if you have to be harsh. Because a lot of people, it's just like, that tough love is like, they don't have any sort of recourse. It's like, what am I going to do? I think that kind of idea to it is, it's, it's, it's. if you're trying and you see someone support you, it can be very helpful because you don't feel as alone. And it's someone that's encouraging you to keep you honest as well.

And without saying you need to do this and without saying you're out if you do this. One of the worst things I would say honestly is that, yeah, ultimatums can be not helpful. The only thing worse than like an ultimatum is an ultimatum you back away from. Like one of the worst problems is that people, I have known I've talked to people where they've made ultimatums and again I think we mentioned this earlier about like

the way that alcoholics and addicts can kind of not only in their mind but like give excuses or give reasons they can be super convincing and it can almost appear convincing but if you set down an ultimatum no matter what they tell you you can't back out of it you have to be like you can't allow them to make an amendment to the ultimatum retroactively

and they will try every which way believe me like alcoholics and addicts are like fucking octopi like you know the way that they can get through a hole as long as it's as big as their beak we'll fucking squirm through that keyhole just making sure we fit our beak in

which is the alcohol just making sure we can fit that in and to give any reasoning so if you set one literally again this goes back to let's say you're dependent on someone if you set someone and you say you're going to be out

when you do it already have the plan of how you're going to get out and even better verbalize that to them be like I'm going to do this and this is I'm taking the kids and I'm going to my mom's where I'm leaving you

I've already looked at other apartments I'm going to move in with my sister for a little bit and then get to a part. Like, tell them, and be ready to do it. When you are creating it, be as ready to do it as you are when you say it. As far as, like, someone that you know that's in your, like, you know, maybe some unfortunately people that have known that you work with or a good friend of yours. You know, honestly, I think one thing that can be helpful in a non-judgmental stance, tell them, really make an assessment

and this sounds kind of weird but really make an assessment if telling them and it will make things worse if you're willing to do that like some people like honestly I got away with it at work I thought I was being so sneaky

as long as I was keeping up like using breath mints and sprint as long as I was keeping up the appearance I was at least trying to hide it I think they were happy with that but like it was like as far as things were going it was fine with them

and there wasn't a reason to. I think, honestly, with a weird sense, people, alcoholics and addicts have like a weird pride that they are very clever and they're pulling the wool of everyone's wise. I had that too. Let's be real. I was not doing it through like clever techniques.

I was basically bludgeoning them with the reality of like, it's going to be shittier for you if you come at me with this. Literally it was just a lot of my relationship was a staring contest of like who is going to blink first. Like I was told afterwards and long conversations I've had when I was sober, it was just like, there were so many times where I was just like, it's a good night. I like this movie, like, I'm not, you're fucking drunk,

but I'm not going to bring it up. Like, I don't want to ruin my night. You're not getting away with shit for the most part. Like, so if you, if there's a person like, I don't know, I suggest, you know, if you really care about them, if you're going to let them know, let them know the full extent.

Because there's some people that honestly will think, like, oh, they caught me because I was like too drunk this night and be like, no, no, no. I've known the full way. Give them at least some perspective, Maybe that too will be like, if I'm not tricking them, I'm probably also not tricking a lot of people. Because a lot of people are under that delusion. Just because they're not saying it to you does not mean they don't know.

And especially in families, there is a lot of that, hear no evil, see no evil. Just because it's the only way you can keep up appearances. Like, what? You have like a knife through your face that you can't take out. And would you keep complaining about the knife in your face? Like in that, that's a horrible analogy. But like, in the sense that why bring it up if you don't think anyone's going to stop? And in the reality is, is it.

that you just have to be you have to with your relationship to that person you have to be willing and imagine the consequences every single time imagine what if they don't do it and be prepared that if you do express to them how you feel and what you know about what they've been doing or how you wish them something you have to be prepared that it will be a fruitless endeavor which is really harsh but that is the truth and it's not because they hate you either believe me life fucking sucks they would stop if they could too yes and just i think have those realities in mind what if you're going to approach someone or if you're thinking about it just go okay am i going to be mad if it doesn't come to anything am i going to be like do i want an apology what do i want for doing

this do i just want them to get better really examine those things and think of the outcome either way think about if they stop and then what you want from it and think about if they totally don't and by the way almost put your money on the fact that they won't and you know how it will affect your relationship from that point yeah really really good advice i think you know the parent-child relationship is a particularly difficult one either way. So for me, like looking up at my dad, who has now passed away, due primarily to his alcoholism, there was a sense my entire life that there was nothing I could really do, that my only choice regarding his addiction was whether or not

I was going to kick him out of my life or accept him in my life given the fact that he's an addict. There's no ultimatum. I knew I was not going to be able to talk my dad out of drinking. I was not, I had no power over what my dad did. Nothing that I was going to do was going to affect that at all. So then the only choice I had is how do I respond? Do I exclude him or do

I embrace him fully with love and compassion even though I goddamn well know that he's not going to fucking stop? I chose the ladder, you know, just to love him until the very last second, I told him you know, when he would feel shame and he would try to hide the drinking

Don't even worry about that. I love you no matter what. My love is unconditional for you. And, you know, maybe you could call that enabling, but I just felt like I didn't have the power to enable or not enable. He was going to do what the fuck he was going to do 100%. And the only thing I had to control over is my relationship to him. Now, that's a son looking up to a father.

So there's a certain dynamic there. And I think that gets very even more complicated when it's reversed. Oh, yeah. When it's your own child. Right, because there's still, and there's a lot of people, I know in AA particularly where we talked about

before the nature of the systematic like you know family tree of drinkers that become drinkers it's funny they almost break down to like it's people that become like alcoholics themselves

or they absolutely don't touch the stuff and it's like who's ever guessed to what's going to happen but yeah that's particularly hard but a lot of them deal with that and basically when they become adults like you talked about enabling and I think you know

you know I totally appreciate you your choice of what you've done I can also appreciate the other side of which I can't have them in my life because it's too painful to watch then if that's what's best for you you you've got to that's what you have to do too the other point that I I wanted to get to was the idea that enabling in the senses I would say enabling is only if they they find a means to continue their addiction through you like your your dad was going to like you weren't enabling by allowing him to drink out in the open because he was going to do it anyways. Now that

enabling idea is really actual territory of trickiness when it comes to the parent, to the child that has it. Because you actually do have means over them, which normal people do apply to their child anyways, but you're their means of like providing them financial support or, you know, just a place to be or just stuff like that doing them errands or helping them out with something. That's what normal parents do for children but in a nice awful world of alcoholism addiction we can always use that

shit for our means and so it's it blurs the lines too of like what the fuck can i i do for him like he needed that money for books right like so when it's your kid too there's an extra layer of there's no option i'm giving up like i'm not excluding my kid for my life like you know i'll exclude my parents or my friend or even my spouse i'll divorce them and walk away from them right uh because their their impacts are so brutal on my life, I cannot take it. But with a kid, it's almost like, if you're a parent of a child, no way. That is not an option for me to like, okay, you're on your own. Fuck you.

I need you out of my life because it's too hard. I think a lot of parents just become enablers through the brute force of not being able to tell their own kid to fuck off. Oh, yeah. It's truly cruel. Like, I would say one of the, again, I'm normally a cynical person, but one of the more beautiful things I had found and through my struggles was. the amount of love that my mom had and she had said something that was incredibly some people could have absolutely taken the wrong way but it was incredibly meaningful to me where i remember when i was coming up on a year we were just talking and i was like hey it'll be it'll be she asked

like it's going to be like a year soon i was like yeah in like two weeks it'll be a year she was like wow and i was like did you did you ever think i would i would make it and she was like no honestly no And immediately, the brain could just be like, what, she didn't believe in me? You know, like, uh, and it's like, no, that actually makes what she did for me more beautiful. Because in spite of the fact that it looked absolutely hopeless, she continued to offer those efforts. That's actually more loving to me than not quote unquote believing in me because even though it was going to be for not, she still exercised it without, without any hope. Like, that was probably one of the, like, most meaningful things I ever heard because it was, like, even in the sense, like, this is a failed project, it's done, you know. You're right to give up, even if she expected no better result.

She still did it because she just had to. God, damn. Yeah. Yeah, your mom is a real hero based on what little I know about her staying in your corner during all this. Yeah. She likes you. She always liked you, too. even though she had to come drive me home

after the mushroom car accident. It's all right, you know. Yeah, so I think that those are the the questions for today. And, you know, there's so much, you know, detours we could take or other things we could talk about. Let me sort of, last question before we talk about your YouTube channel is like,

you mentioned earlier, you referred to this recent stretch of sobriety as this stretch, right? Yes. And there's a sense of, an alcoholic like I'll never not be an alcoholic yeah um how confident this is kind of a tough question how confident are you in the here and now with your ability to maintain and continue the sobriety that you've worked so hard for yeah well you know the thing remember i was talking before

where the the absolute disheartening nature of having some sobriety and then losing it and i was talking about the deja vu of like what's different now i don't know i've been here before what has made me hopeful is that it is not through things that I've been able to accomplish or things that I have. Like, it's nice to have, like, I've gotten a better job and I've made my relationship better and I've been able to do this activity and go on this. Like, it's not through those things. It's that when we were talking about earlier, those deeply ingrained mechanisms of your mind

and, you know, how those things are, what the actual difference I felt from this length of time and over this time is that I actually am like seeing things in a different light. And when we talked about even those things, like catching myself maybe napping too much or those things, I found an ability to not only spot them, but to actually be able to take action to them. And, you know, there were so many times I was sober and I was just totally white-knuckling it.

I was more miserable than I was when I was drinking, honestly. And there was times where I had real hope just because things around me, changing and I was getting positive results but I I feel confident at least just for now that I actually feel like shifts in my mind about how I perceive the way that I'll find the happiness about how I'll find fulfillment in my life like you know the attraction I talked about to that single goal mindset or to be able to control what makes you feel a certain way or to do all these things I've eroded away at those notions and have been open to pursuing other things and that

You know, I know if you talked about before, a huge part is that due to, like, you know, other things that I've been able to pursue with being sober, like, meditation, you know, things like that. It's opened up different avenues to make, like, real internal changes that I was simply not capable of making before. And to put it bluntly, like, I think in different ways now than I had before. That's still a lot of it similar. Like, almost, like, 90% similar, but there's, like, a 10% percent. difference that's like incredibly important that's the best way I can put it I don't know I could drink tomorrow but every day that you know as your sobriety gets longer and longer does it become easier and easier so there is what's funny is is that there's things that become easier like

you talk about your bare like moving from ground zero things like you talk about dealing with cravings or you talk about like the obsession and compulsion some people that it's weird Some people that apparently just drops away quickly. Sometimes it doesn't do at all. But you get hit with certain things. And when I talked about the habits that you have, you've become vulnerable in certain spots. So it comes upon you in a way where you're not thinking about drinking.

You're not doing stuff. But you've become vulnerable in a way to where you eventually do it. And for some people, the years in that respect don't matter as much sometimes. Like it certainly helps to have that established amount of years. But they can become complacent and then they're just kind of hanging on. Like, one of the, I did a video about this. And one of the scariest things in recovery is when people that have multiple years go back out. And this happened a lot during COVID.

And it was frightening because there's a part of you where like, no, I get it. I'm once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. But in your brain is like, this shit ends sometime, right? Like, I can, dude, I'm going to be in the clear like some, 10 years? I'm not in the clear? What the fuck? man like well I'm sticky I'll be good right dude like um you know

one of the scary most frightening things was like Philip Seymour Hoffman died after after like half a year of using after a 23 year sobriety chain you're just like does it ever end and when you listen those are the people I'm always the most fascinated

like people in treatment that I went with that had eight years I wanted to talk to them out of like a curious morbid nature but also I don't know just what what and what it comes down to is the as far as like confidence level you know you get a certain buffering of defenses you know before you would relapse or go back out a certain a buffering of security because of the stuff that you've built up but the problem is that that can wear

away but it doesn't wear away so explicitly like it doesn't wear away because you're thinking about drinking or you're like you're starting to fantasize more certainly that can come but the erosion can happen under not like not completely unconscious but it can happen under what you'd expect it to be where you can be in a rut and then it can come back out and i guess the whole point is anyway you're just supposed to focus where you're at right now so you're not supposed to like mind yourself to things of that that nature like how long like well what you're not supposed to think about those things but it's you can i think it's important to think about those things as terms of like being able to um recognize self-awareness that you need and self-awareness that you need and

self-awareness that you need to carry about yourself. Totally. Just, it's good to ask yourself in my, in my inner rut, like, well, I'd be able to keep going. How long will I do this? And it just depends, well, I feel like this now. I think I'm pretty confident. What if I feel differently in the future? Will I be able to recognize that?

Yeah, very subtle stuff, very complex stuff. And that goes back to, you know, the naps and the lying and, like, being very hyper-conscious of that slippery slope, the very first step on that slope, you know, and trying to learn how that can then avalanche into this other thing. uh yeah it's fascinating talk about your channel the no chaser youtube channel what do you do on it why did you start it what do you want to accomplish with it yeah so basically there was a there was a lot of times where i just honestly i i i kept thinking i wish there was a channel for like someone like me i don't even know who me was like but and this is like totally no offense to any other channels or

things of this nature but they seem to fall into like two categories of one being very like scientific or medicinal or educational, which is great. I mean, you know, the information is awesome. And then other ones went into this category of like super just promotional and rah, rah, rah, cheerleading, which is also important. And people love that and they'll probably love it way more than my shit, which is totally great. But with this channel, it's for people that are still drinking or are an active addiction,

people that are new to recovery, people that aren't, people that are family members or friends, and people that are just curious to get into the. like get into the mind to like you just see from the outside or even from yourself these the crazy things that happen or the choices you make or how do you fall along this how does this path even continue how does this stuff even happen like and it tries to provide at least to some explanation of how you get to that point like you know i i made some videos about you know one like about particularly about a a but then there was another one about how like relapses begin and how a lot of it deals with delusional things that you know And I actually, I tried to like break that down where it's just like, you know, there's so many times we're just like, you weren't doing the things that I were working and you just took your foot off the accelerator and it's just like, no, it's so much deeper than that. And I basically, I try to go through these topics regarding, and I'll try to expand more just in different areas, but I try to go through these topics to give like an in-depth idea of like, this is how it works and it makes sense to. us at this time and this is why or this is like a something that I've done and I try more and you know the videos I'm working now to inject a lot of my experience and do it some funny some not you know some things to just illustrate how the mind works as well too and I I try to make it

you know something where it offers a perspective that maybe someone has been yearning for because it's not simply just a a motivational one and it's not simply just like your scientific educational one even kind of like that free thinker meeting that you found it it has a certain approach for a specific sort of addict and that's what you're trying to provide it and it's

it's just unorthodox in nature it's not even about like the literature that's in it or anything like that it's just from a way of without giving the without telling people this is how addiction is or this is how it works

you know this is like this is how it works scientifically or this is what you need to do. I try to go out a complete non-judgmental approach. It's like, this is how stuff worked in my mind and with people I've known and all the testimony I've heard of others and people just in my life and through the communities that I've been a part of. Like, these are the similarities I've picked up. And when you explore them a little bit deeper, you can see why they are, why they create

alcoholics and addicts, why they manifest and why they continue it. And again, I say it's for like other people that know someone that's suffering is that you can be told, you know, alcoholism and a day. is just a harrowing affliction that's hard to break up. But for some people, they're like, no, he cheated on me again, or he's not taking care of my kids. I don't care about that term. Why?

And I try to answer some of those questions. Like, this is why, again, in an insane way, the crazy makes sense. All right. Yeah, no chaser on YouTube. I will link to it in the show notes. Dave, you're a long, long-time friend. We grew up together. We went through the most formative years of our lives.

As best budge, you'll always be a best friend of mine brother of mine until we both fall into our grave. But I really appreciate you coming on. Your authenticity, your humor, it shines through, and it makes this conversation a difficult one easier to engage with when you can have that sort of, that dark humor that has always been a character trait of you. It really comes into wonderful work when it comes to this very difficult topic and this whole chunk of human existence, the human condition itself.

So thank you so much for coming on ReveLeft and helping my audience just get some insight into your personal struggles and the wisdom that has come out of that. We're obviously all pulling for you. You're welcome back anytime. But yeah, man, congratulations on over a year sober. And I just love you, man. I love knowing that you're okay and that you're turning around and trying to help other people. It's a beautiful thing. I appreciate it.

I truly appreciate. All jokes aside, let me be on here and speak to your audience. It means a lot, man. Absolutely. Well, we'll do it again sometime. We have to do that Patreon episode. you just talk shit. Enough with the sentimental shit.

Let's get weird with it. You know, maybe they'll listen to that episode. I was like, I ain't taken advice from this motherfucker. Yeah. Listen to this one first. Then listen. All right. All right.

All she wanted was a little bit of solid. Feels like love. It doesn't matter what you call it. He'll those cuts. I hide them underneath the polish. Break another promise and take me as a hostage. Hold your job down and let the zombies crowd around thinking mommy's got that it's a cop's town. Keep it safe for me.

Chase a fantasy Swerving through the galaxy Searching for a family Happily surrounded by planets and stars She was stuck uptown You was landing on Mars It's all fucked up now Caught your hand in the jar

Another small step back Put that man in the bar Spill a little bit of blood On the street for love It goes to those that know That they drink too much And hold your on glass Up to the heavens

Take a little time And try to count the seconds it goes Pour me another So I can forget you now Pour me another Spock and come let you down Pour me enough Spock and remember how true

that I enter this addiction of you now Pour me enough So I can prevent you now Pour me another So I can come let you down Pour me enough So I can remember how true That I enter this addiction of you

Drink it all away Numb it down to none Stay awake tonight and wait for the sun You say you hate your life You ain't the only one Let your frustration up the gate And watch the pony run One double for the hunger and the struggle

Two for the fool trying to pull apart the puzzle Three now I smile while I wait for your rebuttal By the fourth shot I missed another child in a bubble Trying to play with the passion and the placement Just to see what these people let them get away with Still trying to climb a mountain for you Hammer in my hands still pounding on a screw She don't listen so he don't spit no more

Nobody's winning because neither is keeping score Don't want to think no more Just let me drink some more Pour me another Cause I can still see the floor Pour me another So I can forget you now Pour me another

So I can prevent you down Pour me another So I can remember How true that I am To this addiction of you now Pour me another So I can forget you now Pour me another

So I can come let you down Pour me another So I can remember How true that I am to this addiction of you Live Life tipsy Stiff It don't fit right with me kiss my whiskey lift my lips rest to my angel swallow it and leave an empty bottle on the table let the past fall make the faces at that clock on the back wall countdown the last call ask all of these people that make sounds how long does it take for the pace to break down another lonely little throat if only i can walk a straight line i'd make it home free and everybody in this far thinks they know me in my story like for me I can count the days till you come back or I can follow them some race

Down to the train tracks, I can stumble drunk over hope and love Or I can just keep drinking until I sober up now Pour me another, so I can forget you now Pour me another, swap and promote you down Pour me another, swap it's remember how true that I am to this addiction of you now Pour me enough, swamble for get you now Pour me another, so I can come back you down Pour me a nothing

So I can remember How true that I answer this Addiction of you You Bottles and minds and chants and chants Couches and floors And drunk as friends Bottles and whores

And tacks and cans Cans cities and secrets And cats and fans Blintowns, laugh and fan musicians strippers and actors and average musicians morning's after and walks to shame the bartender knows me by my real name

singing Evo Ego Ego Ego Oh, who Who, who Who who

We go Ego Ego Enjoy Oh Yeah Go Yeah

Oh too We're Oh Oh Yeah Oh Yeah Oh

Oh Oh too Thank you.