Rev Left Radio - On Mass: Maoism, Hip Hop, & Black Panther

Episode Date: May 8, 2018

Breht welcomes on the host of On Mass podcast Mubarik. Also known for his music under the stage name Emay.  Music Featured in this episode (in order of appearance): Lilac (feat. Kamilah and L-SPEX) | Ilah | Emay (first verse) Lilac (feat. Kamilah and L-SPEX) | Ilah | Emay (final verse) Volunteer - unreleased | Emay Israfil "angels trumpet" | Ilah | Emay You can find his music here: https://emay.bandcamp.com https://soundcloud.com/emay Podcast: https://soundcloud.com/onmasspodcast (iTunes and Stitcher as well)     Support the Show: https://www.patreon.com/RevLeftRadio Follow us on Twitter @RevLeftRadio Follow us on FB at "Revolutionary Left Radio" This podcast is officially affiliated with The Nebraska Left Coalition, the Nebraska IWW, and the Omaha GDC. Check out Nebraska IWW's new website here: https://www.nebraskaiww.org  

Hey, everybody. Before we start, I just wanted to remind everyone that we have switched our Patreon from a per creation model to a per month model. It makes it much easier. It makes it much more consistent. Some people have dropped off the Patreon being confused by what we've done in the past. So hopefully this clears everything up. If you can spare a couple bucks a month, even the cost of a cup of coffee once a month, it really helps the show. And it really helps me and Dave pay our bills. We really appreciate it. And people that do, even if you donate $1 a month, we are going to do a new thing where at the beginning of every month on our Patreon page, we'll ask, For questions, you can ask any questions, whether personal or theoretical, and we will do the research throughout that month to bring back the best answers possible and release a special episode for our patrons that answer those questions. It's just something we're trying to do to give back to the people that support the show.

The last thing I'll say before we move on to the show is that our guest, Mubarak, who goes under the hip-hop name M.A., he gave us songs that were going to play throughout the episode. So any music you hear, any hip-hop music we hear, is his, and we will link to his SoundCloud and his music in the show notes. So having said that, let's get on to the show. They say my father was energetic and outgoing, and I developed as the answer in without knowing. I'm the vocal sample drowning in the.

background. Guess I couldn't wear a pair of jeans that were passed down. The philosophy cry later and laugh now. I've implemented it incrementally, gently, gentrifying and genuine strenuous stop processes. An everlasting task is gobs stop arrest and barely open to the woman I love. I know she notices the shredder is the fate of all my notices. After I write him, I wonder, I kind of notice this. Fear of rejection won't allow me put my toes in it. My inability to express is kind of like holding my breath and I swallow a stick of dynamite incalculable emotion so I should stick to numbers

I need affection that I don't know how to give to others. Hello everyone and welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. I'm your host and Comrade Brett O'Shea and today I have an episode that I'm actually very excited about. We have Mubarak from On Mass coming on the show to talk about Maoism to talk about hip hop, talk a little bit about the movie Black Panther. Mubarak, would you like to introduce yourself and say a bit about your background?

My name is Mubarak. I run the podcast called Unmask podcast. I'm also a musician and a hip-hop artist that goes by M-A, which is E-M-A-Y. And basically, yeah, that's what I do. I grew up seeing a lot of abuse. Aking naked necks, virginal be caught in a noose, desensitized to the guys that were all in a spruce. And the jokes on folks that be hollering hoops

Against the modern astute But that's the bourgeoisie The proletariat's preparing so the bourgeoisie That survival is societal Revival is growling up and rallying They're running out of chalk to get the tallying Whether Arab or Italian Whether the weather that you've endeavored is

Difficult or effortless Remember this There's a limit to subservience A paper tiger is menacing but pervious You probably think I'm gonna end this on a lighter note Utopian opium But I might encroach On the fact that it takes blood

And blood to see a last laugh And nobody might ever get the last laugh Yeah And I've you know When your podcast first came out I immediately was sort of You know in the milieu Where it popped up

And I saw it pretty quickly on And I just listened to the first one And I was totally blown away And then as things have developed It's only gotten you know Just as good if not better You're really amassing a following For such a short

I mean you're only three episodes in so far but I already see so much coming through that I just find fascinating and I really, really respect. So let's just go ahead and talk a little bit about the podcast. Now, I know your podcast is relatively new, but already, like on the left and especially in the left-wing podcast community, it's really made a splash because, you know, it is so well-produced. You have a wonderful ability to explain complex things in a very digestible way. And I think, you know, it focuses on Maoism, which is a very underrepresented position on the U.S. left, in my opinion.

So what made you decide to start the podcast and what do you want people to know about it? Basically, I started the podcast because just like you said, there was basically a void in terms of Maoist politics being pushed online or just in general. And I mean, the people that are actually that consider themselves Maoists that are online that you can find are like, for example, there's Jason Unruh, who's basically, yeah, yeah, who is kind of basically a horrible human being. And not only that, but like basically, yeah, calls himself a Maoist. And he's kind of like Mao's third world is tendency, but that basically means for someone in the wet, I mean, that can maybe be valid for someone that's outside of like the center of imperialism. But for somebody that is, like literally that just means he does nothing, but sits at home, lives his life and then talks like shit online. And so that's all that there was. And so for somebody to Google Maoism and see that would be pretty horrible.

So that's why I chose to start on mass podcast in order to push, you know, what I thought Maoism actually is and should be. Absolutely, and I've been learning a lot more about Maoism over the past several, several months. Some of the key organizers in our organization here are Maoists and they do amazing work. And so a lot of my interest in Maoism has come through actually organizing on the ground and learning more about it. And you're absolutely right.

Like when I had never heard of Maoist rebel news and this Jason guy, but, you know, once you start looking into Maoism, it eventually pops up in your search engine, and it's just a catat. I mean, the dude is reactionary. He's like a weird careerist. I don't know. I don't want to spend any time talking about him, but that is not Maoism. And so part of the reason why I've been doing sort of a few, quite a few episodes on Maoism is precisely because I wanted to sort of correct the record on that and sort of bring forward an actually really, truly, you know, Maoist perspective on things. And so hopefully this episode contributes to that. But let's go ahead and talk about Maoism and talk about your own political development. On this show, we've taught

we had previous episodes where I do ask people like, you know, what has your political development been? Because I think a lot of people, especially that are newer to the left, we all go through, you know, many stages. Like at one point, you know, I self-identified early, my early days as a member of the DSA, card-carrying member. And then I was more of an anarchist, and then I was more of a Marxist. I even called myself a libertarian Marxist for a while. But obviously I've moved on beyond that. And now I'm kind of in this, this Maoist range, broadly, but I think it's beneficial for people to hear that people do grow and they do evolve and they do sort of, you know, create new things as they go on. So what has your political

development been? How did you get introduced to Maoism? And what is it about Maoism that ultimately made you want to commit to it as a tendency? All right. So it's kind of a long story, but basically, yeah, my political development for me, first of all, I mean, came out of my experiences growing up. I mean, I was born and raised in what we call Canada. which I like to just call Turtle Island instead of Canada. But basically, I was born and raised in Canada. My family migrated here from Ghana in the late 80s, early 90s. So I was born in Montreal in like 1991 or so, but I grew up mostly in Ontario or in Toronto.

I grew up in basically every like hood or like ghetto in Toronto as a child. And so like I come from a really poor working class family. like my mom like a lot of immigrants even when they come here sometimes they're maybe they're well off back home before they come here but that definitely wasn't the case for us my mom was just like basically like a and it comes from like a peasant family in like northern ghana and basically we're starting from scratch my father passed away when we were really young so I was raised by my mom as a son she was a single parent so in terms of political development like like my mom Even though she was, she's not like the most politically inclined person, she always had a sense of like making us understand our history and where we come from. So she used to make us watch movies about like Nelson Mandela, Malcolm X, make us watch movies about slavery in America, things like that. So that played, I think, a really big role for me. And with that said, though, even though she had those like progressive elements, my mom was also very religious. And with that, like, and my family for the most part is traditional.

additionally adherence of Sunni Islam and from that like I was able to kind of like so my whole life was kind of like struggling out of that in a sense up until I was about 18 that's when I kind of really broke away from religion and interestingly enough like one of the biggest struggles for me that led me to a more like scientific way of thinking was the contradiction in Islam between basically the text which is like called the Quran and like the way people actually like practice the religion in real life. Like, I saw a lot of contradictions in terms of, well, the book says this, but yet people practice this thing that has nothing to do with the text. And so basically I fell into what's called a Quranist. And you'll only hear this term like within like Islamic circles. But basically a Quranist is somebody that tries to like follow the Quran as opposed to like, you know, all the extra traditions that have been built over like history and over time.

and so basically out of that I was able to kind of learn about how to like critically think about something like I'm no longer religious at all but that kind of was my beginning and at around that same time I started making music when I was like well I started making music when I was like 10 years old but then when I was about 15 then I got like started actually making beats and doing production and stuff like that and I started rapping also and then eventually I was able to do performances. and shows and then once I was in those circles and be and exposed to like more progressive people and more progressive ideas and modes of thought then that's when I really got exposed to Marxism. At first I started off with like more like postmodernist circles like people that you know just kind of exists within their own bubble and are in university things like that. I never went to university so I always saw disconnect in their theories but with that said I still learned a lot about like different groups of people like like I learned about like trans oppression and queer oppression and things that I had no idea about before that. But anyways, the first like Marxist organization I was in

is called the Young Communist League, which is basically the youth wing of the Communist Party of Canada, which I consider like a revisionist party. And I mean this in a very literal sense because they literally adopt like the peaceful transition to socialism idea, which I completely reject. And while I was in the party, there were some people that were part of what's called the PCR RCP, which is like Parti, Communist Revolutionaire in French or Revolutionary Communist Party in Canada. And basically, while I was in the YCL, some people had like pressed me on certain questions in regards to the Communist Party's practices. And then eventually, due to some like internal struggles and stripes within the party, I ended

up leaving. And then after I left, I took a long break for about a year and then just like started reading more about like different tendencies and things like that. And then that's how I got exposed to Maoism. But it was mainly through those people that had criticized me before while I was still in the CPC that had actually direct, like made me think about certain questions that I hadn't thought about before. And then I also realized that the PCR RCP was also closer to what the Black Panther Party was attempting to do back in the 70s. and 60s. So for me, this was just like really eye-opening for me. So that's how I ended up being a Maoist and not Marxist-Leninist anymore or anything else, really. I also had a weird

phase when Ron Paul was running for president where I kind of thought he was cool. Yeah, yeah. But this is before I really knew anything, right? So for me, I was like, oh, well, he wants to take the troops, he wants to bring the troops back to America and not and take them out of Iraq or wherever they were so I thought I thought that was like progressive so I wanted to like support it and then but that that was like that lasted like a month there wasn't that long but anyway yeah but that that's basically what happened and another thing that was a big thing for me and move me towards Maoism was that there wasn't enough of a concrete critique I found of the USSR and why it failed and and to take things further like a lot of people even like in ML circles still talk about the

USSR as if it still exists. And that really bothered me because I'm like, well, like, how are we Marxist? And this socialist state no longer exists, but we don't have enough of a concrete critique of it, nor a concrete critique of like Cuba or North Korea or any of the remaining vestiges of that era. So anyways, that's, that was also a major thing. Yeah, it's super interesting. You know, I too, you know, when we were very young and you're just trying to get political

and you're just kind of lost in the wilderness of politics. I think I have a book on my bookshelf to this day that I bought as a Ron Paul book book called Revolution, which every time I look at it, I just laugh out loud. But, you know, we all go through those interesting little weird stages when we're trying to find our own way. Today, like, you know, I was raised Catholic and I have, you know, some of that still with me, but do you think that you have any influences from your Islamic upbringing that still influence you today in a positive way, or do you think, like, you've totally

moved on and it doesn't have any real influence? on you today? I think it inadvertently has some influence. I mean, even in Islam, right? Like, I mean, there's still a focus on kind of, I find, I find that Islamic discourse or rhetoric is a lot more politicized than is like Christian rhetoric and discourse. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but from what I've seen at least growing up, and because of that, and part of that might just have to do with like 9-11 and all of those events that that followed. But yeah, I mean, there was always this kind of political character to it. And like this idea of kind of controlling society or taking control of a state or something like that to some certain degree.

It depends. But because of that and not only that, but even just like wanting to like alleviate poverty and like basic things like that that were always emphasized. So I think those stuck with me to a certain degree for sure. For sure. Yeah. I think there's strains of that in Catholicism. you know, there has been relatively small but still fairly active, you know, workers' movements and radical red communists that have been Catholic throughout the years.

And so maybe there's little kernels in these religions that we take with us, even when we move beyond them politically and intellectually. For sure. I want to ask about Maoism a little more. What are some of the biggest misconceptions about Maoism? We talked about some of the failures of people trying to search Maoism today and finding really horrible outlets for it. But certainly there's lots of misconceptions about it.

intuited a lot. So what are some of the biggest ones in your opinion? And why are they ultimately wrong? One major one would be the conflation of Mao Zedong thought with like Maoism as as like Marxism, Leninism, Maoism. I think that that's a big one. And it even took me a long time to figure this out too because like I said, like I was exposed to like Jason Unruh and like some other people that I didn't agree with. But I knew there was something there, but I wasn't sure what it was. in terms of Maoism in general. So I think that's a big one, conflating the two. And it's like Mao Zedong thought was more so, you know, mind you, this is while like all this stuff is happening.

Like the cultural revolution is happening in the late 60s and early 70s. Black power movement is happening in the late 60s, early 70s. So you have all these crazy things and events happening that, you know, it makes sense that a lot of errors would have been made when it's like the first time you really have a thing called an anti-revision. movement on a worldwide worldwide scale so because of that it's like that's why i think a lot of these misconceptions have still lingered on and most people don't even know about the revolutionary internationalist movement or the shining path and how they contributed to our understanding of marxism leninism maoism that's also crucial um so i think yeah that's one of the big misconceptions and another common one is that Maoism constitutes everything that Mao ever said or did and this

speaks to the tendency for people to have like really dogmatic views I think and it doesn't help that we name these historical like developments after the people that led them but this is probably like one of the biggest misconceptions it's like we can still have a critical view of Mao or Marx or anybody there's no way in in the whole world that they would have been able to theorize every single thing that needed to be theorized or that they were correct on every single little thing it's just impossible. So we have to take what's correct and what was like revolutionary and remains revolutionary and run with that. And I think that that's also a big one. You can't just be like Mao said this one thing that was wrong once, therefore all of Maoism is false. And you also

have to understand that Maoism is also a thing that is not just about Mao, but it's about the masses and the people and how they were organizing and being organized at the time. and the relationship with the party. These are all things that are crucial. A third thing that is actually a big one is people kind of brushing over the cultural revolution. And this is very common among MLs, especially MLs that are like very pro-China in the modern day. And what they basically do is when they talk about the development of China, they'll be like, yeah, you know, the great leap forward happened. And then you had cultural revolution, cool, cool, whatever.

and then Mao died and then Deng took over and then now like Chinese communism or socialism is great and that's basically the line of thinking that they take but to ignore the cultural revolution I think is like really like daunting because I mean the cultural revolution was literally

Mao and his supporters and the masses reacting to the fact that the great leap forward did not work and it actually ended up kind of putting the party above the masses and that was a huge contradiction And Mao basically tried to solve that by starting the cultural revolution, and you had, you know, basically the masses were like organizing themselves into Red Guards. They were criticizing teachers and other authorities. They were criticizing communist party members. You know, they were moving beyond this kind of like monolithic party idea that I think is what we want to move closer to in a socialist transition. And the one thing that's crucial in this is that even within a market,

or a communist party, you know, revisionist or capitalist modes of thinking and capitalist modes of like enacting policies and things like that can easily insert themselves in what you're trying to do. And I think that regardless of people's intentions, that this can happen. And this is why this like aspect of history needs to be like really studied. And there's a few works. Like one is called the unknown cultural revolution written by Dong Ping Han. And it's like basically he just gives a really good account. I think he only looks at like one or a few villages in his area, but basically it's a really great piece called the Unknown Cultural Revolution,

so that's something people should look out for. Yeah, we'll try to link to that in the show notes when we post it. You know, I read JMP's book, Continuity and Rpture, and I think one of the misconceptions, which you touched on a little bit of Maoism, is that, you know, Marxism, Leninism, Maoism is simply this, just continuity, right? Like when people think about MLM, they think of it as like, oh, it's just Marxism, and then it's Lenin and the Bolsheviks, and then it's Mao and the Chinese Revolution, and that's what they're basically claiming.

But the rupture part of it often gets left out. And I think people should really, obviously you and I have both had JMP on our shows. People can go to those episodes that they want to talk more about it. But so much of what is appealing for me about Maoism is precisely this sort of ruptural process where it does talk about some of the universals that, were, you know, sort of forged through the Bolshevik Russian Revolution. And it also talks about how the Chinese Revolution tried to account for some of the failures and flaws and errors that were present in the Bolshevik Revolution and the entire USSR and try to move beyond

that. And in some ways, they did. And so this new sort of, this new set of theories comes out of the Maoist, you know, Mao and China's attempt to build socialism in their country. Do you want to touch on that a little bit of that continuity and rupture process and what's so fundamental about that? Yeah, basically, like to me, like reading this book was also a huge eye-opener for me because it like basically outlined a lot of things that I had already like known in the back of my head somewhere, but it just organized it all very succinctly, I think. So, I mean, for me, like when I think of continuity and rupture, I just, I mean, even if you just think of science in general, right, like the way you understand physics, for example, right?

you had like Newton's theories and they were very beneficial to physics and how people understand physics and then down the line eventually you had like Einstein and his theories and whatever he contributed to physics and within that like Einsteinian theory or whatever you want to call it you can see like you know there's certain things that he took from Newton or there's certain things he took from you know so there's that continuity in the sense that yeah there's certain principles that you maintain, but then there's the rupture in the sense that, yeah, you further develop something and you push it further. And in that pushing further, sometimes you have to get rid of some of the stuff that, you know, wasn't beneficial or wasn't helpful

or correct. And that's the way I conceptualize it when I think of Marxism, Leninism, Maoism. So I think that's a good way to think about it, I think. Absolutely. So if you had to make a pitch to a non-Maoist leftist in order to convince them of its merits and strengths, even if they ultimately don't commit to Maoism, but just kind of give them a little pitch. What does Maoism have to offer fundamentally for leftists, in your opinion? I would say that, I mean, in a sense, like Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, what it gives you is those three things. And basically Marxism, in the sense of, you know, you have a particular analytical lens, you understand that class struggle is the motor of history, that that's what, you know, shapes society and that's what

shapes our interactions and social relations and even shapes how technology is developed and organized and utilized as well. And so there's that Marxist aspect to it. And then when in terms of Leninism, like this is in terms of like understanding, you know, imperialism and understanding how nations and peoples relate to one another through a historical lens and looking at historically, you know, this group of people was oppressed by this group of people. Therefore, what's the solution to this contradiction and understanding all of that? And in terms of Maoism, you know, you're focusing on, you know, the relationship with the party and the masses and holding oneself accountable to the masses, teaching the masses, but also learning from them and

not just being like this thing that's always above them and always perfect and always just dominate. You know what I mean? So that it's just, you just need to have. this like anti-revisionist understanding of, in order to maintain like a revolutionary character in terms of your practice and your theory as well. So that's the way I would try to pitch it in terms of, you know, you need that analytical aspect, you know, that beginning kind of scientific understanding of social processes and how they move and how they shape the way people think and how, you know, they manifest certain events and things in society and then Leninism in terms of like,

how nations relate to one another and imperialism. And it's like all these different things are interconnected, you know what I mean? So that's, that would be my pitch to, to someone that was interested in Maoism. For sure. Yeah, and I would argue just on top of that, that, you know, Maoism speaks the language of Marxism. It speaks the language of Leninism. So for that segment of the left, I mean, I think that if you just engage with Maoism, you'll find it interesting, if not ultimately convincing, just because it's kind of in that same general vein. But I also think that anarchists generally, you know, they're quick to sort of dismiss Maoism because it's in that line of Marxism and Leninism. And in a lot of ways, obviously Maoism and anarchism are not

able to come together. They're not cohesive. And in a lot of ways, they disagree on fundamental issues. But there is some aspects of Maoism that I think anarchists might at least appreciate the mass line, the protracted peoples war. These are things that I think anarchists would benefit from engaging in. And, you know, often online, these toxic sort of sectarian things happen. And we're all guilty to some extent, but it turns people off from even learning about other tendencies. So if you're an anarchist, you might not ever want to be a Maoist. You might not ever commit to being a Maoist. But I truly honestly believe that there are things in Maoism that you, if you really kind of cleared your head and studied it objectively, that you could find valuable

and that could actually benefit you as an anarchist. So I just like to throw that out there because I think too often Maoism is ultimately quickly dismissed by anarchists as like, fuck that. But there's something there for them, I think. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I even know a lot of people that I've organized with that are Maoists, you actually used to be anarchists. So, and then actually a decent amount of them. So I think that's, I think there's something there. You know what I mean? For sure. I would say, in my experience, at least, almost every malice that I personally know has gone through, you know, some anarchist stage. So it's just worth considering. But let's, let's move on because we recently put out an episode, a controversial episode, on China,

wherein the sort of fundamental Marxist-Leninist position that China is a socialist state was expressed. Now, I thought this was important. I thought people needed to hear that position, even if they ultimately disagreed with it because I believe in critically engaging with things you don't necessarily agree with as opposed to just blocking them out

and never thinking about them. But what is the Maoist position on modern China and why is China not a socialist state, in your opinion? I'm going to go back to the work on the cultural revolution to begin kind of my argument but in this work he basically outlines like how like in this revolutionary era or during the cultural revolution how people were engaged with in relation to the party how they were critiquing the party openly and this was fine you had like big character posters where you know people in a particular village or town or whatever would basically like basically write just giant criticisms of like you know the main of their city or their teacher or whatever it is and for everyone to see and in order for something to be done about that whereas even if you think of living in capital of society right it's like you

even though you can like sure you can post whatever you want on Twitter or or maybe Facebook or what have you but it's like the second that you actually get to a point where it is dangerous for those in power and their lives or whatever it is then you're going to be clamped down upon right and this is the difference between i think china then and china now where if you like like there's no organizing against the chinese state today in a concrete manner and that i think displays their you know their capitalism in a sense you know what i mean so yeah i mentioned dongpin hands work already but there's a bunch of other works like there's for example william hinton wrote a book entitled the great reversal where he talks about the dengist policy so when dengeng took

power in China and how those policies basically destroyed a lot of what was built in the revolutionary era and charles betelheim also wrote a piece called the great leap backward that shows how the dengist reforms also reinstated capitalist social relations in the country so we have to be marxists and like really engage with these works and see you know the world for what it is whereas like pro china marxist leninists only look at the fact that the party is a communist party and name only and they just leave it at that, you know, and it's like when Denghis came into power, they got rid of all the, like basically all the communes, right? And it's like, if you really think about a commune and what it actually is, it's the attempt to basically instill communist

social relations, right? And that's really important. I mean, if we're talking about production and we're talking about workers and we're talking about all this stuff that Marxists talk about, then creating institutions wherein communist social relations can be developed. We can actually move towards communism is crucial. So you would think they would have maintained that if they wanted to maintain socialism or maintain at least what we consider to be socialism. And I think what we should consider to be socialism. And on top of that, they also began enforcing capitalist labor discipline. Like as soon as Mount died, they basically started like broadcasting. And you can read this in The Great League Backward also. They started just

broadcasting about, you know, oh, like you just go back to work, make sure you work, like making sure they're like just instilling this like worker discipline in everybody because they knew that in the, for example, during the cultural revolution that, you know, you're allowed to say whatever you wanted. You're allowed to reject working if, you know, the person that was like your manager or technician or whatever was oppressing you or treating you in a particular way in a capitalistic way. So, I mean, to take all of that away and not only that, but they also took away that what's called the Iron Rice Bowl as soon as Deng took power, which was basically all the benefits that the workers had in terms of like a guaranteed space to live, guaranteed certain amount of food to eat, like all these things were taken away. And we literally have a country that opened its labor up to the world during the birth of neoliberalism. I mean, for that to happen and for that country to consider itself socialist, I mean, I don't know where to be.

begin. I mean, even if you look at, for example, like Foxcon, where like they make, you know, iPods and iPhones and things like that, you literally have workers like committing suicide because they live in like hell in the factories. They're working like 12-hour shifts. They're not getting paid anything. They live in a room where there's like 20 different people in the room and you know what I mean? So it's like, how do you look at all of this and attempt to even suggest that China is still socialist, especially when during the cultural revolution era, these conditions did not exist in this way. So, I mean, I just think it's dangerous, even, to even suggest that.

Another thing is that, you know, people defend China by saying, well, you know, China lifted X amount of people out of poverty, but this is not unique to China. I mean, imperialist countries have already done this. And all we have to do is look at, you know, the post-World War II era in America to see that capitalism, can also capitulate to the needs of the masses in order to not completely destroy itself. And it also did this to a certain degree after the Great Depression also, where you had certain Keynesian policies that were put in in order to make the working class a situation a little bit better so that people don't revolt. And this is also at the height of the Communist Party of the USA's organizing. And it's like, it should also be added that, you know, those policies didn't benefit

like black people very much. But I mean, if you were like a white male working class worker, probably would have benefited you in some way. And it's like, would anyone argue that America was socialist in the Keynesian era for the simple fact that, you know, they, that wages might have been a little higher or that there were more jobs? I think that's ridiculous. And there's also this error that people endorsing this mode of thinking make. And the error is basically that they think, that they think that state ownership is

automatically socialism when it's not. I mean, state ownership is merely one of the first steps taking. taken after you cease power I mean the Bolshevik revolution Chinese revolution whatever revolution we're talking about yeah when you take power you're going to have state ownership of the means of production it's a first step

but just because the party is called communist and there are state enterprises it doesn't mean that the party or those enterprises are actually moving towards communist social relations and I think this error is what causes liberals and other people to suggest that Scandinavian countries

and Canada are like somehow socialist countries, and I've seen this so many times. And so therefore, we have to understand that state planning is not a fundamentally socialist activity. Capital states, in varying degrees, also engage in state planning. And it also ignores the fact that production relations in those enterprises can still be completely capitalistic in the way they function, right? Just because it's state-owned, it doesn't mean it's socialist. I mean, you have to look at the actual production relations. Are they capitalistic in nature? Is there just one guy, like, telling people what to do and, you know what I mean?

Or is it, like, actual workers engaging with what they're creating and making decisions and things like that, which is what we're trying to move towards? So I think that this is, these are the kind of critiques that these people do not want to engage with because it means you actually have to have a Marxist understanding or a concrete and critical understanding of what's happening here. Even when people claim that China is socialist, because it's leading me. the world and like developing green energy, I think they ignore that many other capitalist states are trying to do this too. Like I mean, now that capitalism has basically polluted the atmosphere to such a heinous degree, they're basically being forced to do something about it. Like this activity is not inherently socialist whatsoever. You're merely dealing with the contradictions in order to maintain whatever system you have. And I'm arguing that China is capitalist. And I think that's

clear from all the things that I've said. And if you want to look more into this, there's a lot of of work on it. So like I said, like in like America and Canada, whatever European countries even, like there's been Keynesian kind of policies or policies that benefit the working class to a certain degree. And this is usually at the expense of people in other countries. And even now, I would argue that China is a growing imperialist power that is trying to basically, you know, find spheres of influence. And we see this in their activity in Africa, for example, where, you know, some like For example, someone like Ajit, who you had on your show, would argue that, oh, they're going into Africa and they're building roads and buildings and some people are getting jobs. But, I mean, capitalism does that too, right?

I mean, that's not enough to say that a thing is socialist. Just because China gives better deals to the African countries than America gives them, it doesn't make it socialist. It just makes it like, it just makes them smart businessman or smart business people. It's not enough to just have development. It's not enough to just have technology. you need. We're talking about social relations, the way people relate to one another, how that technology is even created, things like that. So I think in terms of this question, everyone should read the essay called Rethinking Socialism by Pao Yu Ching and Danguansu. And it's actually a

really good piece in terms of how we should conceptualize socialism and how we should understand the transition from capitalism to communism. And I think that this is really crucial. And they even give examples of this in China and what and they basically argue as to why China is no longer socialist because it basically like eliminated every vestige of like socialist or communist social relations that were being developed during the cultural revolution so I know it's a long answer but it's a big question yeah it was a huge question but I think you did a wonderful job and and you know I personally I find the Maoist position on China the most convincing I think your, I think everything you laid out is, is, it sounds, it sounds correct to me based on what I

understand, based on my research. That seems, that seems the right position to take on the situation. I would ask you this, though, you know, I agree with your critiques of like just because they're doing this, doesn't make them socialist, et cetera. But something can fail to be socialist, but still in at least some arenas, be a progressive force. So on the global stage, do you think that China being a counterbalance to U.S. hegemony and U.S. imperial hegemony is a positive thing. How do you think about China as a as a counterbalance to the U.S.? All right. Then I mean somebody could have argued, for example, when Egypt was like the largest empire in the world, that when Rome was becoming one of the largest empires in the

world, that it was somehow the progressive force because it was getting rid of another force. I don't think that it automatically means that it's progressive because it's opposing to something that's currently the hegemonic force. I think we have to look at the content of that force. I mean, is China moving towards socialism? Is it doing what we needed to do in order for the world to be the place we wanted to be? And I think the answer is unequivocally no. If we look at in terms of like how they actually relate to these other countries

in a very imperialistic manner a lot of the time. So I think it's just a different mask on the same. kind of face, you know. Yeah, and we'll definitely link the rethinking socialism in our Twitter when we posted and in our show notes, because I think it's important for people to continue to investigate this issue. You know, we had an episode where somebody gave the Marxist-Leninist view of it, and now we're having a little discussion where the Maoist view is given, and I'm sure there's a unique

anarchist view, so go out and explore it all. I mean, the point is not to pick aside and do battle no matter what. It's to really critically engage with this stuff and think through the importance. implications and the idea. So thank you for that. It was a huge question and you handled it beautifully. Now, I do want to move on to the Black Panther Party. We've had episodes in the Black Panther Party. Obviously, you know, I have a very, very high opinion of the Black Panther Party. And I know Maoism, it wasn't synthesized as an actual theoretical tendency until the late 80s in the early 90s, but surely the Chinese Revolution and Mao Zedong thought influenced many radicals around the world, especially

the Black Panther Party. So in what ways did the Black Panther Party exemplify aspects? And of what would eventually become known as Marxism, Leninism, Maoism. I think that one of the main ways they did, like they embodied Maoism for me was that they directly engage with the masses on a day-to-day basis. I think many modern MLM groups have started what's called like Serve the People organizations and I'm actually part of our local one here in the city of Hamilton. And basically, you know, the Black Panther Party directly applied Mao's practice by providing the people of service, learning from them, but also teaching them.

So it's like you actually go down onto the streets. You don't just sit down at home on the computer or have your own meetings where you talk about Marxism and whatever, the Soviet Union, whatever it may be, but you actually engage with people and you're not scared of people and you talk to people, you struggle with people, even if they have reactionary or incorrect views, things like that. And I think this is how they formulated bonds with communities, not. By simply running for elections or through holding rallies, but by actually like talking to people, figuring out what their needs are and, you know, and figuring out what needs aren't being met by capitalism and linking that, linking their struggles to the fact that, yeah, it's capitalism that's, you know, the reason why you don't have a job or the reason why you can't provide for your family, things like that. And I think you'd be surprised to see, like, how many, like, so-called activists, like, actually want nothing to do.

with the people or the masses directly and simply want to advance like their own careers or their own position in society and I think this is very characteristic of like kind of a liberal identity politics too a lot of the time but I mean before this interview we kind of talked a bit about people charging people like on PayPal and stuff. Paypal me. Yeah for PayPal me for like you know their political like uh hot takes basically but yeah I think uh in this way like the Black Panther Party showed us that Maoism is possible like we can actually talk to people and actually organize with people and around people in a very direct fashion with that said though I don't think we should like idealize the Panthers I think we should go back and

actually look at their development and some of the limits of their practices also because I mean there was also a hard right like kind of opportunist line towards the end especially where you had like Bobby Seal and Huey P. Newton, like, running for mayor of Oakland and, like, just doing very kind of, like, reformist practices. And Huey P. Newton even developed this new theory called, like, intercommunalism or something that was kind of not really a practical, like, like, theory that didn't really mean anything when you really read it. Like, when everything I've read about it, I'm just like, it doesn't mean anything, like, you know, in terms of practicability. And I think that this kind of signified the collapse of the organization where you had a split

between certain people that were part of like for example the black liberation army that just wanted to like raise arms against the state right then and there and then people that wanted to like capitulate to the system a little bit more I think they were both in a sense incorrect at in the final analysis because I mean I think what needed to happen was yeah if they had a conception of for example like a protracted people's war or something like that then maybe they would have been able to better plan and I'm not saying it's that easy I mean like you know this state repression was very real, you know? Like the Cointel Pro and all this stuff that was imposed upon them was scary. Like, I mean, it was stuff that nobody would want that to happen. But now that

we know that that's what would happen, we have a sort of map or a guide to somehow figure out ways in which we cannot allow these external oppressions or whatever you want to call it to kind of feed on the internal contradictions of the party or organization. And I think this is actually another thing I wanted to point out in terms of Maoism that I forgot to say. But I think Maoism's focus on internal contradictions of like an organization, a party, a country, whatever it is, is also crucial. Because I think one thing that kind of signified like the Soviet Union in like the Stalin era or even past the Stalin era was that there was this kind of like idea that your enemy is always outside. You know what I mean? Like your, the enemy is always outside. Mind you,

Yeah, there were the great perjures. There were certain things that clearly showed that they were trying to fight capitalist modes of thinking or individualism, whatever it is, from within the party. But they didn't take it far enough, I would argue. And I think with Maoism, this idea that the internal contradictions are really what matter is really telling. Because, I mean, I think in terms of, just think of like a soccer game, right? For example, imagine you play against another team. the other team destroys you and basically all you do is analyze the other team and all you do is say well yeah they had a great player you know their striker was great and that's why we lost all

that sucks we lost next time what are we going to do i guess they're going to beat us again because you know they have such a good player instead of saying okay let's look internally like what plays did we run uh what players did we have on the field at a given time where the players in the right positions they should have been in um and looking at those internal contradictions to figure out how do we actually win the game instead of just saying, oh, well, the West invading, invaded X country, that's why they no longer have socialism. The West did this. That's why we no longer have this. You know, it's too simplistic.

We need to have a more, we need to understand the internal contradictions and then the contradictions of the thing and the things outside of it. But I think that if those two things are not interlinked and we don't understand the interplay between those, then we end up getting these errors of like, having this very simplistic the enemy is outside and i think this is what we see with mls today where the only enemy in the whole world is the u.s and the west but we don't but then we don't have like enough of a critical eye of like for example Assad or or Putin or whatever it is to the extent that i've even seen people like praising these people as if they're like communist leaders or they're not right right um and it's like we can be you can have a nuanced understanding where you can be against American intervention somewhere, but not somehow like have to praise or worship the president of

that country. And then they'll even use the argument that like, oh, the people of Syria support Assad, therefore Assad's good. It's like, no, that doesn't work. It doesn't work like that. You know what I mean? There's a lot more contradictions in the country. It's very complicated. And this is the same everywhere, North Korea too, anywhere. So it's like we have to have that understanding. I totally agree. And I think at sometimes and, you know, this isn't completely just MLs. obviously other people dabble in it, but I do see it on the ML side, and obviously I have a lot of ML comrades, all the caveats apply, but there is a sort of tendency towards upholding individual

leaders, and that reflects for me a certain sort of disgusting great man of history, sort of liberalism. If you know, if you have, if you're upholding the leader of Assad or you're upholding a leader of any country in and of itself as something worth upholding, you're kind of missing the plot because it's sort of anti-materialistic and dialectical because you're not looking at the underlying masses and the underlying people that have, you know, desires and are pushing the system forward and all the other contradictions to uphold one person is a sort of weird liberal error in my opinion. Do you agree with that? I completely agree that. I think that it's a, it's very much like a, I would call it like, yeah, liberal kind of revisionist error to have this like

great man history understanding that you know like the individual leader said this or did this and then therefore they're great and it's just so like just liberal or like just so even reactionary to a certain degree like i mean like i talked about like like when i was like more religious when i was younger and like that's what bothered me so much is just this idea that a person is like you know infallible or perfect and just like can can change the world with the single touch of a of a button or by the single stroke of a pen i think that it's just ridiculous and just dogmatic and we need to move past that and i think for me maoism creates that space where you can like i like don't get me wrong like i like i love like when i read lenin like i love the shit like oh yeah me too um and and and and that's what

it is it's like i can see what's great in it take that, you know, but I can still be a little critical. I can still see that, oh, okay, he said this would happen, but this didn't happen because maybe he misunderstood what was happening in ex-country, whatever it is, right? So I think that's the approach we need to be able to actually move forward, to actually make correct analyses in order to know how to organize. And I think it's not a surprise that, I mean, like, and I'm not trying to be like sectarian or anything, but I also think people misunderstand what it means to be sectarian because I think what sectarianism actually is is not wanting to have that concrete analysis and see how is my theory and practice correct or incorrect. It's just this, I find sectarianism is separating yourself on an unprincipled basis as opposed to if you separate yourself because you think what you're actually doing is correct and you can prove it with practice, then I don't see that as sectarianism.

And so basically what I was going to say was that I find, and this was my experience here, organizing with the ML organizations. And I was in the YCL, which is an ML, and I think revisionist organization. And basically there's just this detachment from the masses. I mean, they basically will just organize rallies every time the U.S. or Canada bombs somebody. But then I'm like, okay, but then how do we actually change that where we are is by actually organizing towards taking control of the state and actually organize, society it's not just a matter of oh i want to you know rally every it just seems like this like defeatist weird like perpetually defensive posture never going on the offensive exactly and it's like that's and we go on the offensive by actually meeting the masses figuring out what needs to be

done and doing it in a revolutionary way so that we can build support and build an actual movement instead of just sitting down rallying posting on twitter every every second or every day about what's happening in Iraq instead of actually dealing with the contradictions where you live. And I think this practice is the most necessary aspect. I mean, ideologies, they're both extremely important. But if you're not practicing it, then it makes sense that your ideology would be all wacky. Exactly. Yeah.

And I just want to say, you mentioned the Feed the People program where you live. We obviously are doing the same thing here in Omaha. We have a Feed the People program. And we're recently sort of getting off the ground this sort of physical training, communist, struggle session sort of program where we do physical training. We're eventually going to move into arms training and we also sort of work out and sort of criticize each other in a comradly way and reflect on things. And one of the things that is coming out of this organizing is like this sort of goal we have for ourselves where we want to start setting sort of like basically homework

assignments where we go out into our own communities, whether it's knocking on doors, whether it's just talking to people, your neighbors, whatever it may be, and getting used to talking to people because I think a lot of people, you know, they have introverted sort of, you know, tendencies or maybe just because we live in a neoliberal healthcape and individualism is so implanted in our brains that people feel awkward talking to other people. But I think really working on getting past that fear and really making it a point to reach out to regular people and meet them where they are is absolutely fundamental. The Black Panther Party for all of its flaws, it did do that, certain parts of its development.

And I think that's crucial. just as crucial today as it's ever been. So I encourage people to do that. Yeah, it was probably also like the main reason why they had so much support. I mean, that plus the like just the self-defense aspect, right? And that's also a service to the people, right? I mean, if you had cops going into people's neighborhoods, terrorizing people, and you knew somebody might do something about it.

If they came to your house, then, you know, you know that this is a force to be reckoned with. And that's how you gain support. And you said it was feed the people. programs where you live? Yeah, feed the people is what we call it. Just a, yeah, it's a takeoff whatever. I know people would name it different things, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, we call it serve the people. Nice. And I do want to say, you know, we do have an entire episode on the Black Panther Party and we have an entire segment in that episode where we talk about some of the failures, especially some of the failures with regards to patriarchy and sort of, you know,

heteronormantivity. So I urge people if you're more interested in that to go check that episode out because we do cover that in great detail. But let's go ahead and move on to the second part of this conversation, which is hip hop. Now, as many listeners know, I've talked about it on the show, I've been deeply inspired by hip hop. In fact, I would argue that it was, and I have argued that it's one of the primary radicalizing forces for me in my life politically. What role, and I know that you're a hip-hop artist yourself, so what role has hip-hop played in your life? And how does it connect up with the larger struggle for liberation, in your opinion? Yeah, same for me in terms of radicalization.

I mean, just listening to like, I guess I'm going to go into like some of the, the people that really influenced me uh in a bit but like in terms of just just just just hearing voices that wanted like are just against the system you know what i mean like they just were there's just this drive this understanding that the system is not there for you and trying to like continuously speak out against that is what really inspired me i think i mean even even hip hop that i've listened to growing up that was like you know certain like had certain reactionary reviews in certain ways still always had a certain kernel of like like anti-statism or like just being against police or just against you know whatever it is and and i think that that understanding is is crucial and

it makes sense given where hip-hop comes from and and for me why it resonated with me so much is because it's like yeah i grew up in in hoods too so i understand what it's like to feel hungry or just to literally have nothing and to be looking for any means necessary to be fed or to feed whoever you need to feed. So, and hip hop comes from that. That's why it understands that, you know, the system. And obviously this is not all of hip hop, you right?

There's certain contradictions. We're going to get into that. But, you know, but in a general sense, I do think, yeah, like hip hop understands that, yeah, the system is not there for you. And I think that's like a, like the general story of hip hop in a sense. But yeah, that's where it was for you. Yeah. We're pretending we're only getting younger.

Suspended, stuck in the moment between lightning and thunder. Me and life are asunder, but only for a second. And then I recognize that I am false and you're the essence, but only when we're connected. For when the thunder hits, we tend to. to live in isolation, 30 deep on a bus and no one has the time for patience, only time for emails, mythically trying to prevail, only time for consumption, and the lie is to function. I put a mask in front of suicidal ideation.

The self-helpers had told me that it was my creation, like I should have read the secret, as if my trauma would disappear as I try to read it. Like positivity's a wolf and I just have to feed it, but you're assuming that I have food including the capital to amass too. The rich are getting richer, the poorer getting poorer. Shots to the immigrants dying to get across the border. Migrant workers on Arabian sands. I have a dream that we were burning the Canadian flag,

but they don't pay me for politics, they pay me to brag. The contract said that niggas can't relate to the past. I looked at it and laughed, threw it straight in the trash, because I'm Claudia Jones, writing red on a pad. Yeah, I've talked about this, and I've talked about this, and you know, maybe there's other people that have said this, and I'm probably sure there are, but I haven't heard of them. And I kind of came up with this idea just throughout my, my research. research in my study and doing this show and just putting everything together. But I do argue that I think you can draw a very distinct line from, probably before this, but I'll just start

at Malcolm X through the Black Panther Party. Obviously, the Black Panther Party was heavily influenced by X. And then through to hip-hop. Like there's a certain swagger, a certain self-confidence, a certain self-love, a unique style, a militancy that Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party brought into the culture that I think a decade or two later, you know, helped give rise to hip hop and sort of, you know, sort of like a historical lineage. What do you think about that general idea? Yeah, I think I completely agree. I mean, in terms of just that, like, yeah, a sense of like pride, right, black power and, you know, standing up against white supremacy, standing up against capitalism on top of that. Like even like, you know, people like KRS1, for example,

and like some of his earlier work directly like, you know, wrote about like white supremacy and capitalism like by name. Like it's not just him saying something against money or things like that. But like he, at least to a certain extent, understood what he was dealing with. You know what I mean? And it's, it's just, yeah, it's just like central to it, I would argue. And, you know, for different, for developmental historical reasons like and at least in the mainstream sense a lot of that has been definitely skewed and and obstructed but i think that yeah that i but even in that stuff if you really listen to a lot of it you'll find that people still understand this to a certain degree and i think that it's telling exactly i i don't like when when people say oh i don't like i don't like

that even people that are ostensibly fans of hip like i don't like that mainstream shit well there's plenty of lines that drive through that mainstream stuff that that is still like radical and you can still draw roots like even if it's just the self love even it's just like black is beautiful sort of thing you know it's still there and you can't escape it so I don't like this the sectioning off of oh this is real hip hop and this is fake hip hop it's all hip hop and it's all beautiful in its own weird ways I agree and it's interesting you say that because I'm currently like right actually no I already wrote it but it's going to be in like one of our like the issues that the PCRCP is going to put out on it's going to be called red tide is going to be the name of the issue um and basically it's just about culture and like i think the name of it is like combat collective culture or collective culture in combat or something like that but anyway i wrote an article about um basically it's specifically about black liberalism but i talk about how yet yeah there's this basically this false idea that you know there's this thing called like underground hip hop and it's so like completely different from mainstream hip hop and I basically argue that you know I criticize some of the mainstream hip hop in this but then I basically argue that there like a lot of these currents also exist in the underground sphere too like it's not it's there's not just there's not this clear divide that people imagine I mean you listen to like a lot of underground hip hop sometimes it's like you know there's that violence or there's that uh misogyny there's certain things that are there

there and the underground stuff too. So, I mean, there's people pretend like it's so different, but I'm like, it's really not that different, you know? Exactly. Totally agree. And when you write that, I definitely want to read that and I'll share it as well. But what were some of your earliest hip-hop influences, and what are you trying to do with your music today?

In terms of influences, like, a lot of people, like, there's, like, M.F. Doom was a big one for me. Most Deaf was another one. TI actually was one DJ premiere in terms of like production and stuff like that Jay Dilla AZ Lupe Fiasco unfortunately Kanye West especially like even even some of his later like more recent stuff but like I'm now I'm probably never going to listen to the guy again but but anyways yeah so those are some of my influences and in terms of like what I want to do is that you know

at least when I started I just wanted to express myself like that's basically what it was and and part of this was kind of connected to a more like individualistic careerist building kind of thing that's kind of it's partially kind of inherent in that kind of work too and at the same time it's like we all do need to survive in certain ways and I don't think it's fundamentally wrong to make money but what but this leads to my second point which is like yeah now I basically try to, you know, obviously express myself, keep that personal aspect to the music, but also, you know, entrench myself in a very deliberate way in society and making sure that I always emphasize that, yeah, we live under capitalism, we live under white supremacist, like hegemony,

we live under all these conditions, we live under, you know, imperialist domination on a global scale. So these are all the things that I try to bring to light in my music, but I still don't want to, I try, I try not to like detach it from the personal because I think that's why, at least for me, why I listen to music, because it resonates to me as a person. And I think sometimes what happens with political hip hop is that you have someone, some guy just like yelling at you, like, you know, just saying isom this, isom that. And I find that stuff not as entertaining. So I try to at least try to keep it like experimental, try to keep it entertaining, but still, you know, make it personal and still make it political and still make it

about society at large and liberation at large and how to move forward towards that. Absolutely. Yeah, some of just really quick, some of my like earliest rap influences and the way I got into it was because obviously grew up lower middle class poor and working class as fuck, you know, coming home to lights being turned off or cars getting repossessed. And there was always a very like sort of class approach that hip hop had that spoke to me. And then through that, I was still a white guy. So through that, it opened up the door to the sort of, I mean, as a teenager,

the racial oppression in this country. And that was extremely eye-opening to me, like from Dead Prez, Goody Mob, Outcast, NWA, you know, even like Lauren Hill, Public Enemy, all that shit spoke to me on like a really deep level. And I just think it's a beautiful thing. And even today, whether it's in, I mean, even in Gaza, there's that new MC Gaza that was doing a rap song. on the front lines in this most recent conflict between Israel and Gaza. So hip hop all over the world is the language that oppressed people use. Like it is an oppressed people's music,

and it pops up all over the world wherever there are oppressed people. And I think that is beautiful and fascinating, yeah. Yeah, I agree. So approaching hip-hop from, let's say, a Marxist perspective, what are some of the ideological contradictions inside of hip-hop, both historically and currently, in your opinion, and how do you think about them? You mentioned it a little bit, your last answer, so.

Yeah, so basically, yeah, just this, so yeah, I mean, there's like all the positive things we talked about, like there's a lot of the revolutionary sentiments, I think, still embedded in hip-hop everywhere, and but this certainly, yeah, comes with these contradictions, you know, there's some of those great aspects, like this day for authority, being against police, against the state, things like that, but there still seems to be a lot of, I would argue that there's still a lot of misogyny and male supremacy that I think still exist within hip hop and I think that like a lot of work needs to be done on this I mean even if you think of popular hip hop right

like recently there was a debate about like Nikki Menal and Cardi B right and my partner pointed this out and she's like why is it that there has to be one female rapper right at all times you know it's like it's either Lil Kim or it's Foxy Brown or it's whoever, but there's always one or maybe two, three at, like at best, but then every other rapper is a man. And it's like even those rappers that are women, a lot of the time have to like sell themselves in a particular kind of way. It's like there's still a lot of the time geared towards male audiences in the way that they're supposed to present themselves and things like that. So it's very, it's telling, I think. And I think even, you know, you talked about

Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party. And I think these are some of the errors that they had also in their politics. And I think that this is a problem that needs to be resolved where people ascribe black nationalism to like black male supremacy. And I think it's easy to make, it's easy to see how that kind of would have developed. And I think that this needs to be this like really like this analyzed and critiqued and really. and we need to be able to say that I think black nationalism does not have to be like a male dominated thing and I think that that's something that still remains in hip hop you know it's like even and not only that but there's still this um for example in that piece I told you about I

talk a little bit about how for example KRS 1 and even a lot of the guys that are considered the quote unquote underground hip hop artist they still kind of support this kind of like I don't know like entrepreneurial like idea of how a person is supposed to liberate themselves killer mike yeah killer mike is a big one too um and even and if you read k rs one has a book called like i think it's got like commandments of hip-hop rules of hip something like that and basically one of like the tenets in it is like he calls it street entrepreneurialism and i found i found it telling because then it's like when you actually read what he was saying it's basically just like entrepreneurism he's just trying to put like a hood spin on it but i'm like it's basically just entrepreneurism and

i mean are these the kind of ideas we want to be instilling in people and i think it's incorrect to have this like individualist uh understanding or capitalistic understanding of what liberation is that we need to wrench out of ourselves and and i mean that this is what we're surrounded by in in society so it makes sense that hip hop itself would also absorb this right and a lot of critiques of hip-hop that come from, you know, the mainstream media are often racist because they basically try to scapegoat hip-hop and suggest that, oh, if there's like anti-LGBQ sentiment or anti-women sentiment or anti-whomen sentiment or anti-whatever sentiment in hip-hop, it's because of hip-hop as opposed to seeing how society at large is actually what shapes those views and

those understandings and having a historical understanding of why those views like exist in hip hop like i mean to not acknowledge that i think is ridiculous but this speaks to like liberalism and also reactionary understandings of history and how it functions in terms of they think that it's just ideas floating in the sky and you just pick whatever idea you want and then you know and this is how they critique communism too it's how they critique everything exactly so so this is what i think is still exist in hip hop in terms of like yeah this entrepreneur entrepreneurism black capitalism that we see with like Jay-Z and like these more rich capitalists and unsurprisingly they all endorsed Obama they all endorsed Hillary Clinton they all endorsed the Democratic Party in general uh killer Mike

I'm pretty sure he took some pictures with the NRA yeah he did a video for him I think yeah oh boy like recently and I'm just like okay like it's like I want that militancy but not that kind of militancy you know what I mean um but then yeah so it's like it's like even the best examples are like kind of crappy. So it's like we still have a lot of contradictions that need to be resolved. You know, and I think that this will come with the general class struggle and, you know, like class consciousness raising, anti-racism, anti-fascism, anti-all forms of discrimination. And I think that once we do that in practice as practitioners as Marxists, then that stuff can begin to take shape in hip-hop also in a more like robust.

bust away. Yeah, absolutely. And the killer Mike thing kind of bothers me, because I'm a fan of Killer Mike. I love him. He has songs where he's talking about blowing cops' brains through the motherfucking ceiling. And he comes out and says, I'm a libertarian or here's a video for the NRA. It's like, God, fucking damn it. The contradictions, right?

Like, I mean, majority, and that's the thing. Like, the majority of the way people even understand history, and I've seen this a lot in hip-hop is, like, you'll have, even, like, Jay-Z, like, you'll listen to a song and he's literally, like, comparing himself to, like, Fred Hampton. and then like the next two lines just gloating about how rich he is and like all the shoes he's buying and I'm just like but these are the kind of conflations that happen when people aren't educated or people don't you know aren't engaged with on the ground they have the skewed understanding of what black liberation means where it's tied up to this individualism and this capitalism that and I think this is a really big contradiction that needs to be you know dismantled and only time will tell in our practice will will tell, I think. I'm not just going to sit down and be like, oh, these rappers are saying X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah. I think that's a waste of time. We need to, you know, do our political activity and try to spread those ideas within society. And that's how it affects hip-hop.

That's how you engage with that. Absolutely. Yeah, well said. Well said. Yeah, and that leads really well into this next question, because on one of your most recent episodes or on your most recent episode, you dove into a really fascinating analysis of the new Black Panther film. You used this analysis as a jumping off point to have this really fascinating discussion about black liberalism. I was hoping you could talk about the film a little bit and just elaborate on your general critique of black liberalism with regards to the film and even more broadly. Yeah, simply put, you know, the point I was trying to get across in that episode was that the film in its contents as they pertain to the question of black liberation at large. and the film is clearly, you know, this theme is clearly like one of the central aspects of it. And I'm basically arguing that, yeah, the movie was basically just black bourgeois propaganda, point blank without question.

And the director even said that the film was influenced by Tennessee Coates, who is basically a writer who also had his own kind of rendition of the Black Panther comics. And basically Tennessee Coates is unsurprisingly, like, one of the main, like, bourgeois black interstate. intellectuals in the modern day that has endorsed Obama. He even compared Obama's legacy to that of Malcolm X's, which is pretty laughable. And Cornell West actually called him out for this, I think, very correctly in a very direct way. And I think that, yeah, the movie basically depicts the character who wants, like, revolutionary change for black people on a global scale. They basically just depict him at this bloodthirsty villain who's going out, who's going about liberation in the quote-unquote wrong way.

His name is killmonger. I know. That's what I tell people. Like, there's people, like, I've been arguing with people trying to tell me like, hey, look, well, I think they were just trying to show like a nuanced. And I'm like, no, his name was killmonger. Like, come on. Like, like, nuanced, like really.

But anyways, it's like, yeah, there's this idea that, you know, violence is just this like in any political sphere. It's just like blind rage thing where you're just going about killing everyone. And I think they made a very specific attempt, I think, to make him attack women in particular in the movie to try to like ascribe kind of this like, yeah, male supremacy idea to like all revolutionary thought. And it's and it's so deliberate, I think. And people trying to like argue that, oh, well, they're just trying to show the different views. I'm like, come on. Like really, like it's clear.

Like, you know, and it's like long story short in the movie. It's like the monarchy in the movie wins. they work with the CIA agent who doesn't care about you know and they don't care about American imperialism they work with the CIA willingly they end up killing this bloodthirsty revolutionary killmonger guy and then and then the most telling part for me was like yeah then the monarchy opens up a science research center in an Oakland ghetto as if that's going to change anything and it's like like the movie was did basically nothing more than just like fiddles and like diddles the question of black revolution and black liberation

in front of your face only to say that no this is the wrong way what we have to do is open NGOs and ghettos and that's somehow going to like solve the contradiction of of you know black oppression that has been happening for 400 plus years you know what I mean and to me and the liberal aspect to this is that the people that I know that like I would like call them liberals through and through that have supported this movie like all their arguments in support of this movie are basically that A, it's made a lot of money, and B, that, oh, there's a lot of people in it with black skin. And I'm like, this is just like peak, like, liberal identity politics where you're not actually engaging with how this relates to the actual question of how we should liberate all black people

and all oppressed people. And all you're doing is looking at the fact that you're just looking at the surface and seeing, well, there's people with black skin in it, they're the majority of the cast. Therefore, this movie is like some revolutionary thing. I'm like, come on. I'm like, this is horrible. Like, it's a monarchy. Like, so clearly there's some class oppression going on in Wakanda.

So I'm like, like, let's open our eyes. Let's really see what's happening here. And mind you, this is happening at the same time while you have, you know, the rise of so many, like, you know, black capitalists, like Oprah Winfrey. Obama was just the president of the United States. Jay-Z is like a full-blown capitalist. So, like, there's all these contradictions that. If we're not seeing our contextualizing the movie in its actual, like, historical context, then it's like we're just wasting our time, even talking about how this thing is progressive in any way. So that's what I wanted to, like, bring across.

And I talked a little bit about, like, you know, towards the end, just talked about Harry Haywood and some of, like, those questions as they pertain to, you know, black liberation. Because he did theorize what was called the Black Belt thesis, which is basically the idea that black people in the South, in the South of America, constituted. a nation that needs to be liberated. And we can question whether that's still applicable today, because I think the Black Panthers actually took this further and applied it to black people all over the country, and we saw how impactful that was. But his understanding was crucial in his kind of merging of black nationalism with Marxism and understanding that the two are very much interconnected.

And this is where Lenin is very important, too, because even in Lenin's writings, if you read I forget the name of the documents now I might have to link it to you later but there's a few documents where he explicitly considers the black people and the black people in America to be a nation that needs to be liberated and he very deliberately understood this and these were discussions happening in the CPSU at the time so I mean these are all things that are very much interlinked phenomena but anyways yeah black panthers trash well that's just a preview of that full episode you had so I really encourage people to go check out en masse listen to episode three he breaks down the entire movie and then he has this really

fascinating history of harry heywood marcus garvey and certain ideological differences in the black liberation movement throughout history which is fucking fascinating so go listen to it mabark comrade thank you so much for coming on it's been an honor to talk to you i was really looking forward to this conversation and it's been amazing i wish we could go for longer but obviously time is an issue but before i let you go can you please let listeners know where they can find you your podcast and your music online. Yeah, you can find me at, in terms of my music, you can just find me, if you just search like MA on Google, E-M-A-Y, you'll actually just find like all of my SoundCloud bank camp links or whatever. If you want to find my music, I'm also on YouTube as well.

For the podcast, you just go to on-masspodcast.com, which is O-N-M-A-S-S-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-com, and you'll find, you know, all the links. you want to find SoundCloud links, downloads for the episodes, iTunes, on the side, whatever it is. So that's where you can find me. Awesome. Well, let's keep in touch. Let's collaborate more in the future. Keep up the amazing work with your music, with your podcast, and with your organizing.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Maybe my time is my time. It's my time. And my time. It's my time. My time. It's my time.

to shine, it's my time. And you my time, it's my time. I can't remember the last time I've been productive when every step towards the treadmill is interrupted. My mother warns me of the future, but I've changed the subject. The sound is deadly but beautiful like an angel's trumpet. I'm on a search for money knowing it's a fatal substance. In order to survive, I knowingly became a puppet.

Every one of us squaring to be a Warren Buffett. As individuals squaring, we try to hoard the bucket. straight for the dunkin. Never want to pass the ball to dunkin. Sometimes I wonder if my heart is pumping. Spending time alone to see how far I've sunken. The worst toilet in Scotland. Swimming in it plus, the water's boiling as constant.

Boxing, boxing, fighting through the toxins. Need a couple dollars, I sell my labor to sharpen. Surrounded by the shark fins. Working long hours for a bit of copper. Shift is finally terminated, so get the chopper. But instead I'm riding on the transit. Dreaming of a better life. I'm coming up with antics,

waiting for the day that I can tell the man sit, like my family's hungry, go make a sandwich. So, the tone's shine, it's my time. Maybe my time is shine, it's my time. A tone is shine, it's my time. Maybe my time is shine, it's my time. My time is shine, it's my time. Maybe my time is my time to shine, it's my time.

And when my time is shine, it's my time, no... I really do it for my ancestors and sisters. My experience, the transmitter. I'm the amplifier and the transistor. Our mother had to work a lot to make our plans bigger. Your retina displays a man's picture sans filter. Was never funny in our family feuds. Wish we had a special dance to make the family feuds.

And I could barely cope. Mom was never there because we had to eat. I was on the video game levels I had to beat. It was easier because when you fail, you're at it again. again instead of having false ability that tragedy bends needed a hand to extend God has to dissent when the people are desperate trying to gather intent but he would rather invent a place of anger invent a place of hassling with no woman or man to prevent a stench rather intense and he stays beating the same fetus so don't ask

if I'm atheist or atheists so don't shine my time maybe my time shines my My time. My time is shine. It's my time. It's my time. Maybe my time is shine. It's my time. It's my time.

Maybe my time is my time. Maybe my time is shine. It's my time. And when my time is shine. It's my time. She's saying now I'm 23 and I should have a degree. The favorite, the only son. But look what happened to me.

The wrong path are closer to a multifaceted dream. I'm saying rap's the way to sway. She's saying that's a disease. She wants a master from me. to master from me. I just want to master the keys. To open any door ahead and make it passionate themed. Who doesn't want to exceed? But seeds need the right environment. All I wanted was a voice, a choir, what a choir sings. Dizzy and I'm tired in the tire swings. Trying to get in show biz, but the pocket's skinny. Trying to find a stage in rocket to launch the city.

Maybe then I'll flip a stack, but the pods are shitty. Agonizing when I'm working in a call center. If I'm to stand a prisoner to falls better Better to die a disobedient slave I'd rather live for long term and not immediate gains Do a hundred shows for nothing but a meager exchange And become the robin tussin for a feverish game I proceed the restraints Try to tap into my tapestry

What I'm portraying is havoc at full capacity Time shine, it's my time Maybe my time should shine It's my time That's my time It's my time Make me my time to shine. It's my time.

It's my time. It's my time. Me my time to shine. It's my time. It's my time. It'll never be a time. It'll never be the time to show. It'll never be the time to show.

It'll never be the time to shine. It'll never be the time to show. white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, because shame produces trauma. And trauma often produces paralysis. So when the sister said that there are days that she just can't get out of bed, lots of us experience that sense of paralysis. So that healing, I have to go back to, I'm not going to be labored, but to emotional well-being, because we've got to have some mechanisms to resist

exist.