Rev Left Radio - On the Situation in Syria and its Implications for the Region

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

Thuraya, Angie, Mohammad, and Edward join Breht to discuss recent events in Syria. Together they discuss what happened, Syria under the Assad government, the hope and concerns of the the Syrian people,  the role Syria plays in the axis of resistance, Syria's connections to Palestine, current conditions in Gaza, Israel's ongoing genocide and its actions in Syria, Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) and their governing promises, the history of the Syrian civil war and its continued relevance, the role of US-led imperialism in the region and its backing of HTS, Turkey and Iran, sanctions on Syria and the role they've played in destablizing the country, the uncertainty for Syrians about what comes next, and much, much more.  Recommendations and Resources: The Origins of the Syrian Crisis Lecture Decolonize The Classroom Guerrilla History's episode on Syrian Sanctions The Cradle News Gaza Funds Al Mayadeen News Educators for Palestinian Liberation   Support Rev Left and get access to bonus episodes: www.patreon.com/revleftradio Follow RLR on IG HERE Make a one-time donation to Rev Left at BuyMeACoffee.com/revleftradio  

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. So on today's episode, we finally got an episode together on the issue of Syria and current and recent events in Syria, tying it back to, you know, many, many years of turmoil going back and beyond the Syrian Civil War. We connect it with the Palestinian issue and try to make sense out of what's happening. This is an ongoing and developing situation. So, of course, a lot of these questions are still unanswered, and we're going to have to keep a close eye on it. But we get into, you know, controversial topics like how to think about Assad, how to think about Syria under Assad, what role Syria played materially in the anti-imperialist struggle and in the axis of resistance more broadly. And I think the conclusions and the insights with our wonderful guests are really enlightening on that front.

And I think really principled. So today we have on Theraya, Muhammad. Angie and my friend Ed. We got a Palestinian, a Syrian, a sociologist, anti-imperialist activists, et cetera. So we have a lot of different really informed people who are tied deeply to this issue talking about it. And so I'm really happy to release this episode. And I hope it really helps a lot of people understand what's going on. I also wanted to mention that we are now coming up on eight years of doing RevLeft.

This February will be our eighth year anniversary. So I just wanted to say, you know, we're so grateful to a. everybody who has listened and supported the show in any way over the years who has shared the show, et cetera. As always, we can support us on patreon.com forward slash rev left radio and get access to multiple bonus episodes. Sometimes I release like a two and a half, three hour bonus episode every month. It's a great way to support the show. I respond to every comment on the comment section, but we also have a new way to support the show because I've heard a lot of people over the years say that they don't want to join Patreon for various reasons. They don't

have the consistency to be able to pay something on a monthly basis. So this year we started an easy way to suage those who have asked us for this for actually a few years. We should have done it much sooner. But we started an account on buy me a coffee.com. It's buy mea coffee.com forward slash rev left radio. And you can just do any amount one-time donation. So if you just have a little extra money, you want to support the show in any way possible.

It would be really helpful for us and our families in this. time where you know everybody's struggling and we are too to keep our heads above water so if people like what we do they don't want to join patreon you can really just give us a one-time donation and show your support and help us out at buy mea coffee.com forward slash rev left radio the link will be in the show notes thank you so much to everybody who supports the show it means the world to us and it literally puts food in our children's bellies so um it's not it's not overstated to say how much we appreciate it all right without further ado here's my conversation with Soraya, Ed, Mohamed, and Angie on the issue of Syria, its connections to Palestine and the anti-imperialist struggle, and much more.

Enjoy. I'm Sireya. I am an experienced educator based in New Jersey with over a decade of teaching experience, both at the high school and college levels. My pedagogical approach is firmly grounded in principles of social justice and empathy. And as a Palestinian woman and advocate, I specialize in educating on various issues related to Palestine. Additionally, also in multiculturalism and anti-racist teaching. My name is Mohammed. I'm a sociology professor that is also very much like Thorea mentioned, teach his race and ethnicity, my pedagogy is centered around making sure that students

understand that the institution within which they exist is part of the colonial project and that they should be very critical of not just of my classes, but also all the other classes they take within these institutions. I grew up in Jordan, two Palestinian parents who taught us very early on about our history. And it is something I carry with me in my classes and in my headagogy today as well. My name's Angie Bitar. I'm a Syrian born and raised academic consultant and researcher. My academic focus is primarily in political violence, non-state armed groups, and state development. I work within the framework of critical theory, decolonial theory, and post-colonial theories, particularly focusing on looking at how

violence is a tool within the international system. Outside of my political work, I'm an educator first and foremost. I believe in the strict pedagogies of education, similar to folks have said here. I believe in dialectics. I believe in discourse. And my primary goal when it comes to speaking on Syria is just to eludicate some of the minority voices, make clear some of the ambiguities within Syria, and just bring a little bit of light to the region that I believe is largely propagandized outside of those of us who know it. And I'm going to use a pseudonym for this session, but my name is Ed. I am a lifelong anti-imperialist and organizer, and I've been trying to get to the bottom of what's happening in the region

for a very long time, and I've learned from all these fine folks here. Wonderful. Well, it's genuinely a pleasure and an honor to have all of you on the show. I really appreciate the generosity of your time and knowledge to share it with my audience. And again, this is an incredibly important issue that is playing out in real time, and it is covered underneath many layers of propaganda, especially in the Imperial Corps here in the West. People just, if you listen to the New York Times and Fox News and MSNBC and CNN, you will simply not understand what's happening. And so the job of independent media and especially anti-imperial,

anti-colonial socialist media is to demystify what our corporate media and the larger intelligence apparatuses of the state seek to mystify. And so I think it's incredibly important. And again, I'm very honored to have all of you on with me today. So the first question I would like to talk about is I think this would be an interesting way into the conversation is for you to explain to us what the Thawabet is, and perhaps I mispronounce that, I apologize up front if I did, and kind of help contextualize that because I think it helps set the table for the connections between the Palestinian resistance, Syria, et cetera, in the region. So can you kind of help us understand what that is, and then we'll get into the specific events happening

in Syria? So the term Thawabit in Adabi translates to principles, and there are some Kortho-Abit that are embedded in the Palestinian National Charter from the 1960s. And so I'll share what these are and briefly explain. The first one is liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea. This is very important because this is in accordance to 1948 borders and not to the false narrative of the 1967 border, which some folks might hear. Also, it would be self-determination and self-autonomy. This is crucial, even whether we're talking about Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and I'm sure folks can also elaborate on this later as well.

But self-determination and self-autonomy in Palestine includes self-autonomy from the current political faction that's recognized by the West, the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, and his. police. And also, this looks like self-autonomy from any other country in the Arab world and self-determination for the Palestinian people. Next would be that Al-Quds, or Jerusalem, is the capital of Palestine, the right of return. So this looks like the right of return for the 750,000 refugees that were displaced in the 1940s. And currently they're estimated, the estimate is that there are over 7 million Palestinians in the diaspora and in refugee camps. And finally, the right to resist and the right to revolution.

And so these, the Wabit originate from our ancestors who sat down in in their tents and in their camps and articulated these and documented them, they can be found through the Palestinian National Charter. And I think a question that is really important for any listener as people are well-intentioned and want to perhaps engage in advocacy or activism in this movement and for this cause is can we truly engage authentically when the Thawabit are not included. Yeah, absolutely. So for people listening, this is something that all Palestinian factions, part of the Palestinian resistance, kind of pledge fealty to. It's kind of like, yeah, core principles, you know, principles of unity, despite other differences that various factions may have. Anybody

interested in Palestinian liberation and Palestinian resistance should be familiar with these fundamental principles, as it were. So now that we have that out of the way, and I think that's an important place to start, let's move on and talk about recent events, Syria. So most listeners will have been aware that the Assad, you know, government has collapsed, but who are the forces and individuals that are attempting to replace him? And what is the current state of Syria overall in the wake of recent events? So I can speak to this a bit. Apologies in advance. My cat tends to be a little bit active in the background. In terms of actors, I would say we can go ahead and say everyone is a free Syrian today. Um,

I would argue primarily the actors that we have to focus on are Hight at the Harir Sharm, the HTS, led by Mohamed Zolani. There's still confrontation with other forces from the SDF to other Turkish groups that are continuing to, we can say, resist or experience skirmishes in different areas of the region that are just still trying to establish what law is under what area and what individuals are essentially permitted to remain. in their homes. There's still certain local militias within the Valley of the Christians that have not completely disbanded despite orders for disarmament. But the actors that we have to focus on in Syria are high at the Heidasham and everybody in the West. So I would argue this includes Turkey. This includes Israel. This includes actors like Iran and Russia. This includes France. This includes Germany. This obviously includes the United States. But the actors that we need to look at in particular are puppet masters in Syria right now. And so what we're looking at in terms of the actual events

is a performance at the moment. Yeah. And would anybody like to follow up on that? And maybe even just tell us a little bit more about exactly what happened. Because I'm sure there are perhaps even some people in our audience that are totally unaware of exactly what even has occurred. So maybe setting that up could be helpful. In terms of what happened, that's still being parsed out. The fact that the Syrian army just laid down its arms with no fight, that it kept receiving orders to retreat, and that Assad very abruptly left is still something that everybody,

every actor in the region is trying to piece together. What we know for sure is that Assad was declared the victor of the Syrian Civil War for the sheer reason that it was launched to oust him and he remained in power. However, that victory that he had was an incredibly fragile one.

He presided over a country that had been radically, dramatically, dramatically, de-developed by bombing, by foreign intervention, by the U.S. administered occupation of a third of the country, which happens to be the most lucrative

region in terms of its wheat, and oil supplies. So he presided over a very fragile Syria, whose economy had been devastated by, again, many of its major cities being decimated by its breadbasket and its oil fields being largely occupied by the U.S. proxies in the region as well as the U.S. military itself.

So that it collapsed so quickly is what I think surprised everybody because I sometimes I often think of how when the Berlin wall fell not even the CIA was prepared for it you know so that this resulted in such a stunning collapse is something that is probably going to be studied

for the immediate future and probably well past that but again anybody who wants to chime in with that with any more insight please do I just have a quick thing to add, in addition to what Edd already stated, which is that all of this has to be taken within the context of the sanctions that have been placed on Syria as well, which these sanctions, again, have had the severe impact on the Syrian population and on perceptions of Assad as well, and on the region altogether. So all of this is also not without taking into consideration the interventionist policies of the United States and other imperial forces. absolutely and we'll definitely get back to that and talk about that in more detail but angie go ahead yeah i don't want to go too far into the sanctions at the moment since i'm sure we'll circle back

but i think from that point that mohammed makes it's important to also recognize that the interventionism in syria cannot at any point be separated from syria's stance and position towards israel and palestine um prior to the fall of the asset regime if that's what we want to kind of conceptualize it as. Turkey and Syria spent the summer and the fall and the beginning of winter, essentially negotiating a reopening of their state's relationships. So Erdogan has been pursuing Assad for nearly six months at the point at which Turkey opens the borders for Hayat-Tahrir Shamm to enter Syria. And that order comes critically in the moment that Netanyahu is announcing the weak ceasefire on south of Lebanon.

and then also warning Assad to not play with fire. And I think it's really important to kind of reintegrate that tie that Netanyahu speaks and Erdogan moves when it comes to Syria. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll continue to dive deeper into that. But I do want to talk about Assad for a second. I know this is perhaps the most controversial aspect of this. Unfortunately, when the events occurred,

the first thing you'll hear, even divisions on the pro-Palestinian side of things even on some aspects of the left. There's this sort of celebration. There's this, you know, accusations of the Assad government, the Assad regime, however you want to put it, and how they behaved when they were in power. And that is something that anybody waiting into this conflict and trying to understand it will immediately be met with. So I do think it is important to address as best we can. How should we understand Assad as an individual leader? And then on top of that, how have Syrians in Syria reacted to the events? And how has the Syrian diaspora reacted to events as well?

So Vashad al-Assad is a great leader to analyze from a perspective of the individual level of analysis, because he really never wanted to be a leader, nor was he trained in any political field or any political traditions. and it shows it shows clear as day his policies are inherited from his fathers and then neoliberalized essentially at the turn of the century so the early 2000s of Syria are characterized by this slight you could call opening of the economy a new wave of you could say middle classism the idea that the everyday luxuries were available to a larger portion of the population, that wages were decent, particularly given the state of the region. And what we saw in 2008, 2010, that time period, particularly as someone who was there and had the opportunity to experience that time in Syria,

was unlike anything we had expected. For those of us who had family in the West or were living in the West, that was the moment that we were truly considering packing up and moving home, something completely unprecedented. But to talk about Ased's social policies can't be divorced from the ideas of Muhabara and the secret police and secret prisons and political prisoners and political repression, but we also can't divorce from the reality that those are the realities of the region and the realities of broader imperial politics writ large. So I would feel comfortable. on the record today saying that a large majority of the individual allegations against the Assad regime when it comes to political prisoners, torture, treatment of individuals behind bars,

or treatment of individuals suspected when it comes to the ability to speak out against the regime, those are all true. We did not have freedom of speech. There was not true political freedom. There was not real alternatives to the party in any way that mattered. But, that wasn't a unique experience for Syrians, and it is not now. So the treatment of the crimes of the Assad regime by the rest of the world, the fact that we refer to the Assad regime as the regime and not as the state, as a president, as a leader is a weaponization of language and of these concepts as we know them in order to sort of assert the primacy of his treatment of people on that front to justify other propagandizations or just integrations of Syria into geopolitics that

would not otherwise necessarily be justified. Yeah. And can you talk a little bit about the reaction from Syrians to the current events? There's been mixed reactions in the diaspora and in Syria itself. I was hoping that we could get some insight on that as well. I mean, I think that there is at minimum a small breath of relief in the heart of every Syrian. And anyone who denies that is being a little bit dishonest with themselves. There was never an idealization of our situation. I would even argue that having been able to have the fortune of going back and forth through Syria in recent years, there was never a very popular rallying behind. the regime or behind Assad as an individual, rather there was a clear and conscious awareness

of the fact that the alternative was occupation, was likely more suffering. And my family is Christian, for any listeners who need that context, for a lot of us, it was the understanding that we would be ruled by radicals who, if they did not try to displace or exterminate us and our loved ones, they would be forcing us to live under whatever dogma they desire. So the reaction is a gaping pit in the stomach of many of us, I would say, in diaspora, because we're seeing this a little bit more, I don't want to say objectively, but I think we're seeing the bigger picture and seeing the cards as they fall a little bit sooner. My family there is optimistic at the moment. They are taking it one day at a time. We are holding on to the

possibility of elections at the moment. Many of you will know that Zolani has decided that at least four years will have to be the waiting period for an initial election. So that optimism, I think, dwindles daily. And what we're seeing in Syria is the sort of boomerang of reactions from the elation of the end of one era to the scrambling of finding the new era. And I think that more Syrians than are speaking now are hoping that this is an era of secularism and of a civil government that will be at least to some extent driven by the populace. But we do have to behave within what we're seeing in reality, which is that every single new thing that comes out of the interim government, who no longer calls themselves an interim government, by the way, is increasingly less secular, less civil, less aware of the history and fundamental demographic makeup of Syria. Yeah. And that says nothing of, and we're going to get to this in a bit of U.S. and Israeli role.

and how they're taking advantage of the situation already. So, yeah, that's domestically there's that issue. And I find your analysis of Assad and people's sort of, you know, sigh of relief, but also genuine concern about what comes next to be insightful and measured. And that's the approach, I think, principle, you know, socialist, anti-imperialist, Marxist should take. It's not about an individual leader. It's about the forces arrayed.

It's about self-determination for the Syrian people, what benefits the Syrian people and what benefits people in the region more broadly. And on that front, it is a complicated picture. It's not as easy as saying, you know, it's black and white. It's good or bad. But you mentioned the alternative now is HTS run by Jolani. I'm wondering what they are saying that they'll be because Jolani until yesterday was on the terrorist list of every Western country, you know, in the Imperial Corps. But there seems to be some real, you know, PR movements to try to make him more appealing to Western audience.

is to make it seem as if this is, you know, maybe even an outright progressive leader, et cetera. And of course, you know, there's plenty of really deserved skepticism with regards to that. But as of right now, what are they claiming inside Syria that they are going to be? I can say from my contacts and my family, it really depends on where you are. Some areas, you are getting a very hard, demonstrative fall in line order. and some areas are still being told that we will be protected and that your liberties will be secure and that you just have to stand down. So the most recent call that reached to the Valley of the Christians, which is a region sort of between Homs and Hama in Syria that has been predominantly and historically inhabited by some of the oldest Christian communities in the region and in the country. have received orders to completely disarm.

So prior to this point, my understanding, based on what I've heard from the country, is that formal militias had been largely disarmed, but that individuals within their homes were permitted to keep weapons, particularly among religious minorities. That has now changed. So there is a shift. There's an understanding that you will need to be as submissive as possible. essentially. That is the party line that we're receiving. We're not getting directives. We're not

seeing direct change. I will say that my family members and homes have received longer hours of electricity. Family members in the villages have not seen any of such improvements, nor have they seen improvements in price of basic goods or food. So it's just unclear. If you asked for my analysis, which I would right now go ahead and say is largely misinformed or less informed than I would prefer it to be, I would say that they're not organized. There is not a single head of authority that is speaking to these groups every time that something does happen against a minority. So a few weeks back a couple, a Christian couple in the Valley of the Christians were robbed and then killed in their home. another a former Syrian Arab army officer was driving his sister into the city and was pulled over and killed extrajudicially so anytime one of these events happens the party line is that they are one-off events they are individuals that are not connected to any formal group and that they are just vigilantes operating individually but we're seeing shifts and policy that are pushing us towards essentially helplessness in the villages and particular and the areas that are most populated with our religious minorities.

Yeah, I think some of the things that have leaked through to Western media or social media, you saw some random videos of seemingly retributional killings, pretty brutal stuff that makes your stomach turn, but there's no real context. It's not clear. Yeah, if they are acting individually or if they're acting in tandem with bigger forces. So there is some question marks on that and perhaps clarity or more clarity will come with time, specifically with regards to how whoever does continue to rise and the forces that are arrayed, how they continue to play out this, I guess, transition

that is happening now has been foisted upon the country. So something that's definitely worth keeping an eye on. But stepping back a moment, regardless of Assad as an individual, there's a certain role that Syria played in the region under Assad when it came to, you know, Iran, the axis of resistance, broader forces of imperialism. We know that it's, you know, in the last several years and during the Syrian Civil War, it was, you know, kind of like a regional war, but also you had global players like the U.S. and Russia fighting in Syria, terrorist organizations. Turkey is always trying to, you know, influence events there as well.

So how should we understand the role of Syria in the last couple of decades when it comes to imperialism, when it comes to the axis of resistance, et cetera, and the role that they served in those broader processes? I would say that for me, it's been very clear at several points in the last six years that a contingency for the removal of the sanctions against Syria was a degree of normalization with Israel. In that regard, I would argue that Syria may be acted as a wall. I think that we'll be analyzing this for decades to come, particularly as more comes out about the particularities of the Assad regime and the Basque Party's involvement up to the final moments. But Syria acted as a wall that stood firmly against further occupation, that stood firmly against any attempts to, to expand or any attempts to intensify the occupation. How true that was, particularly in later years, debatable, very, very highly debatable. But there was a, at least in soft power, a very clear firm no from the Assad regime and the state of Syria that it would not be in any way complicit with the ongoing actions of,

the Israeli occupation or any actor that chose to engage with that occupation. That is setting aside the supply routes that it offered for Hezbollah and Hamas. It sets aside that Syria is home for several Palestinian resistance factions and just countless radical thinkers and scholars that have informed our resistance in Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine over the decades, Syria, for what it was worth, was the one area of the region that imperialism had not infiltrated. Yeah, and of course, Syria was one of those seven countries that's now become quite, you know, well known in certain circles that pay attention to this stuff, that Syria is on this list, you know, led by the U.S. of countries that have long,

you know, been in the crosshairs of imperialism. On behalf of. of Israel in the region, but on behalf of Western imperial interests more broadly. And many of those countries, you know, have in one way or another been destabilized, toppled, infiltrated, et cetera. And, of course, they have Iran in their crosshairs next, it would seem. But kind of even stepping back from that and kind of learning about this history, you mentioned the Syrian Civil War. Oh, Ed, do you have something to add to that before I move on? I apologize. no i just wanted to say that part of the thing that made syria such a prize for the imperialist powers is as you said it was one of the very few states in the region that had not been fully

infiltrated by imperialism uh it was a robust economy for most of its modern history it was under the banner of arab socialism specifically of the bathist strain which bathism is a very broad ideology that we don't have time to get into here but one of the core tenets that the Syrian state enacted was to nationalize its resources for the betterment of its people now as angie has said and I think the best way that people have described especially Syria under the Assad family is undemocratic but pluralistic with in the earlier years more robust social programs, you know, it was a mixed economic model whereby the state played a central role in planning and caring for the betterment of the people, but it wasn't waging class warfare

against the national bourgeoisie. We should be very clear that both Assad, both Hafez and Bashar were anti-communist, but at the same time, they managed to develop an incredibly sophisticated healthcare system, incredibly sophisticated education, a national education system, which, by the way, led to to Syria becoming the art capital at one point of the Arab world, as some might say. And its housing was even more accessible for us here in the United States. You could not be evicted for not paying your rent under this Ba'athist version of Arab socialism. Now, in the 1980s, in a memo I'll get more into later, the U.S. explicitly outlined, the CIA explicitly outlined that their goal was

to overthrow Assad and replace it with a, quote, Sunni regime controlled by business-oriented moderates, unquote. And with that comes the need for Western aid and investment to build Syria's private economy. And that is, frankly, exactly what we are seeing now. Jalani recently announced that he hopes to open up Syria's market towards a more liberal model. So the specifics of how Bashar had to implement these structural readjustment programs after the fall of the Soviet Union is a conversation for much later time, but I just wanted to say that Syria has been the prize for the United States for a very long time. Yeah, and there's three main ways that you get on the wrong side of U.S.-led imperialism, which is to nationalize your resources, i.e. not let them be up for grabs for multinational capital, opposing imperial interests in your reading. region or organizing your society along anti-capitalists or socialist lines. And of course, that last one wasn't present, but they don't all three need to be present. Even one of them can be

present. And you've made yourself an enemy of the U.S.-led Imperial Corps. And, yeah, nationalizing resources and opposing imperial interests, time and time again, we see any state that takes that tack is going to be put in the crosshairs. And so Syria has certainly been in the crosshairs for a very long time. We've touched on the Syrian Civil War. And of course, We know that this is crucial to understanding current events and, you know, the last 15 or so years of life in Syria has been absolutely brutal. It's perhaps one of the biggest geopolitical events in the 21st century was the Syrian Civil War and the consequences of it, you know, which are still, you know, very much present in the world. So can we talk a little bit about that Syrian Civil War, sort of its consequences and insofar as you can, how that history. is relevant to the current situation?

So I recommend this lecture any time I speak about the Syrian Civil War or I'm asked about it. Dr. Roy Casa Granada of the University of Texas, Austin, I believe, has published on YouTube. It's about two hours long a lecture titled The Origins of the Syrian Crisis. It is fantastic. It is thorough. It is an astute analysis of the Syrian Civil War. from the ancient roots of Syria to the time of recording, which I believe was 2016.

The Syrian Civil War is rooted in the larger narrative of the Arab Spring, but we could argue for a moment, for a moment, was a true attempt at revolution towards progress, revolution towards improvement. Within, I will say just to contextualize how this starts. We have the early demonstrations, early protests, Assad responding very, very violently towards them, essentially following the outline of set by Algeria prior to him, where they respond with repressive force and it all essentially quiets down. Assad gets the opposite

reaction, essentially. He receives a great deal of international backlash. He begins to see members of his army defecting, and those defectors largely form what we initially see as the Free Syrian Army or the FSA. The FSA passed about 2012 becomes this disparate group that we cannot pin down, can't really tie to individuals. It just becomes this banner for a large number of groups and militias that oppose the regime. But I would say between 2011 to 2012, we had this moment of genuine defectors speaking to the people, speaking against the political repression they were seeing the elements of stagnation in the regime and in the economy and in the progress that they wanted to see in the state.

And within the first year, I wish I had my notes in front of me. But one of the two first defectors that join and form the FSA, then defects from the FSA and goes into compulsory. complete exile from Syria, leaving a strict statement that he felt uncomfortable with the level of sway French and U.S. money had on their prerogative in Syria. So for me, the Syrian Civil War is this beautiful catastrophe, wherein we see a moment of true breakthrough, a moment wherein there is this rising in the population that can move move towards change and even a weakening in the regime that if not completely changing over,

likely would have given in to significant progressive reforms that is co-opted by imperial forces using material donations, money, weaponry, whatever it may be, in order to navigate the will of the revolutionary people in order to cast onto them a desire for their state that did not exist in their moment of revolution. So for me, going forward now, I mean almost 15, 16 years forward, it's very, very jarring to see all of those same things that we saw happen in that moment now immediately happen the moment that Assad leaves Damascus. We could have a moment. We could have a where the populace really does come into power, we're immediately given elections. There are countless, prominent, moderate, secular voices within the opposition towards the Assad regime

that could have been given positions in the interim government, that could have been given consultancies in the interim government at bare minimum. But instead, we're seeing this turn towards repressive policies within the state and the impassee. imperial agenda. So the Syrian civil war is a gorgeous cycle of imperial implantation. Yeah, and that, I mean, that follows a guidebook, you know, a blueprint for how imperial co-optation occurs. Often, you know, we broadly conceived, you can, you know, people talk about it as color revolutions, but it's basically there is genuine, often there is genuine bottom-up grievances, movement on behalf of the people, protesting certain conditions, wanting certain

reforms. And this is seen then as an opportunity by imperial forces to, as you said, infiltrate, co-opt the movement, throw money around, pick forces to emphasize, other forces to de-emphasize. So it starts off as a genuine movement for progressive reform, for genuine self-determination, for more democracy, quickly gets turned and co-opted into whatever is in the interests of imperialism, of Israel, of the U.S., of the West, in general, which is never progressive reforms, it's never more democracy, it's never more self-determination. We've seen this happen again and again and again. And this is why U.S.-led imperialism and Western imperialism more broadly is the biggest threat to peace, freedom, and democracy in the world right now. And if we want a better world than the

one that we are living in, the first and foremost thing that has to be confronted and dismantled is precisely that, because you see time and time again, even genuine movements for progressive reform are so easily co-opted by the biggest military and economy in the world, which leads the imperialist bloc of the West more broadly. And I know sanctions have been a crucial role, a crucial tool in the toolbox of Western imperialism. Before we move on to the next question, can you talk a little bit about the sanctions in Syria and what they've done to the economy I mean, this goes back to Henry Kissinger and their policy toward Chile when Henry Kissinger famously said, we want to make the economy scream.

And the idea there is that you disable the economy to such an extent that people are impoverished. People can't get food and medicine in some instances. We've seen this happen in Cuba with the embargo. We've seen it happen in Venezuela. Around the world, you destroy their economy and sanctions have been the major way in which the West has done that. recent decades. And then you create the conditions for suffering, which then creates the conditions for malubility with regards to imperial interests in the region. So can you talk a little bit about sanctions and their impact on Syria? I don't even know where to start, honestly.

In 2010, I believe the U.S. dollar converted to Syrian pound came out. to around 33 Syrian pounds to one U.S. dollar. I could be a little bit off here and there in terms of the year, exactly, but that was the childhood conversion I grew up with, right? I went to, I was in Syria in recent months, and I believe the conversion rate was sitting around 100 between, 90 and 100,000 Syrian pounds. I'm sorry, I'm laughing because I feel like we don't,

we haven't known how to get through this. The Syrian pound plummeted. The ability for the average individual, the wage did not change. The wage of Syrians in Syrian pounds did not change because we have continued to operate with the Syrian pound. We never switched to the dollar. So as the Syrian pound,

plummets due to our sanctions as we are less and less able to bring in life-saving medicine, to receive education from abroad, as students are unable to receive visas to go abroad to study, individuals are unable to go abroad to receive medical care that they're not able to receive in the country due to the sanctions. And then you add on top of it that the worker's wage has stagnated while the cost of goods rises. So individuals living on, I would say, probably 300,000 Syrian pounds are forced to stretch that out over a month that would easily cost them as an individual a million Syrian pounds. That was the kind of economy that we were working with for the layperson. I would say up until

this current moment. My family alone, my immediate families and my mother, father, siblings supports between four to six full families, members of our family in Syria at any given time through just the money that we're able to send back, the medicine that we're able to take, and the items that we're taking with us to lead for them every time we go down. so the Syrian economy doesn't exist I would say in a material sense it has been eviscerated the individual purchasing power of a Syrian is negligible when we think about their necessities and their need to just survive so I think we have to reflect on that a little bit and maybe a lot with what we see now because people have been strangled, truly strangled for water, for gas, for rice, for the most basic necessities that there's this sort of illusion, this mirage almost of seeing something improve, of it really can't get worse than this. So that I think we have to contextualize the sanctions as

almost the leverage that needed to be put on the Syrian people in order to make them complacent enough for whatever, whatever imperial agenda would carry out on their land. When you're starving, you're hungry, you're truly, like, I don't know how to describe people working three to four jobs around the clock to take care of a family of four. I've never been able to get my head around it. And the only way I can understand those sanctions that are continuing, by the way, the Europe has fully announced that it will not end the sanctions at this time and will not re-engage with the Syrian state is that these sanctions exist to completely cripple the people.

So if the goal was to empower democracy, to empower the Syrian majority to take up arms against their state, that that wasn't going to happen while they star. Yeah, we're going to, Ed, I'm going to go to you in one second. I just want to mention that an insidious aspect of this is that once, you know, imperialism gets a government that is much more open to them, you know, will abide by their, their demands, will not, you know, oppose in any way their imperial interest in the region. I know Europe hasn't lifted sanctions yet, but I think with Israel and the U.S., I think we will see an influx of investment and a short-term bump in the economy, which is, you know, the opposite

of sanctions at a way to say, okay, this government in power now is one that we like, that is willing to do our bidding, that is not willing to confront us in any way. Therefore, we'll lift the sanctions, we'll infuse it with some, you know, Western capital, and you'll get a bump in the economy as a way to sort of solidify or stabilize the regime that serves their interest. So, I mean, we have to see where that goes. I just wanted to mention it before we go to Ed really quickly. My other podcast that I co-hosted for many years, guerrilla history, has an entire episode on the history and impact of sanctions on Syria as part of their sanctions as war series where they go through many countries and talk about

how sanctions are an attack on innocent people by the Imperial West meant to undermine governments they don't like, et cetera. And they have a whole episode specifically on Syria that I'll link to in the show notes so people can educate themselves on just how brutal and just how much of a tool of war sanctions actually are they are not as is often presented to us a way to avoid war or using soft power it is an act of war and it does create a miseration in human suffering and you're leveraging human beings you know desire to care for their family against them right people are not going to if somebody has to work five jobs to take care of their kids they're going to work five jobs right and and so that's a cruel brutal reality of sanctions but let's go um ed

Or Angie, if you want to say something, then Ed as well, I want to make sure you both have a chance to comment on that. Sorry, yeah, I realized, as you were saying that, I didn't mention the impact that the sanctions had on visas for Syrians writ large. At the beginning of the war, a lot of us will remember the refugee crisis was abound. From that point and into the current year, I mean, up until 2024, many members of my family, of other, minorities, particularly Christians and Hallowites and Shia Muslims, have had difficulty receiving visas, even being able to apply for the visa at all. And that difficulty is not coming from Syria. It's coming from the external countries that are essentially being selective about who they allowed to leave the country. So I think that that also is something that should be

taken into consideration when we think about some of the voices in diaspora, particularly in the early years, who was being given that podium and who was being given the ability to speak in those early years. And even now, I would say one of the larger groups that has pioneered the sanctions, especially the continuation of the sanctions into 20, I believe 2032 was their last proposed date was the Syrian emergency task force led by the famous Selim Kassim, who is herself a Syrian woman who was left. I don't honestly know her backstory when it comes to the regime, but left Syria, I believe, early in the war, did not return and completely manufactured its suffering through these sanctions for the majority of her adult career.

So there's something very particularly insidious about how the sanctions were also leveraged to manufacture the narrative about Syria, who was given even access to their voice and given legitimacy in the geopolitical sphere was tied to who was legitimized by those sanctions and who was essentially forced to stay put and stay invisible. Yeah, crucial, crucial point. Ed, I know I stepped on your hand wave. So do you have anything to say before we move on? No, no. I just wanted to say if M had anything to add since he touched on it earlier, especially when it comes to the role that sanctions play in the region. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the sanctions, I think, are very much also about distracting and taking away resources to cause havoc so that they can not, so that basically they have less resources towards supporting Palestinian resistance. and other resistance factions in the region like Hezbollah. And also, I think a lot of this also, in a way, ties into the question that was raised earlier about the differences that we see in regards

to the reactions of people in the diaspora and folks in the homeland. And I think it's the question relevant to the diaspora, which again, I think also ties into sanctions, why the reactions are different, than people in the homeland. I don't think that's really exactly unique to Syrians. I think we see similarities when it comes to Cuban diaspora,

when we look at other diaspora as well, because here in the so-called United States, for example, when someone applies for the American citizenship, one of the questions that we still have on the citizenship application is, have you ever been a member of a Communist Party? Or have you ever affiliated with the Communist Party? And if the answer to that is yes, then you could easily disqualify from becoming a U.S. citizen. The reason I bring this up is because the so-called United States has a tendency to do moral tests indirectly and sometimes very blatantly indirectly to decide who is going to be here.

So there are demographic differences. Of course, this is not a generalization about everyone in the diaspora, but they definitely do conduct some moral tests to, to determine who will be in this region, in this area, in the so-called United States. And by doing so, you're going to have demographic differences that are going to have different reactions as well. So all of these sanctions tie into the differences in the diaspora tie into, who gets a visa,

who doesn't get a visa, based again in a lot of times based on ideological alliances that we see, whether it's in the Syrian population or in other populations as well. But really the sanctions, sanctions are, a lot of it is really just about weakening the governments that don't align themselves with the West and with the Imperial Corps and just being able to cause havoc so that they can do what they did in Syria just recently. Yeah, crucial point for sure. Now, we've been talking about, you know, the machinations of the Imperial Corps and other countries and so many other countries are involved in one way or another. in Syria and what's happening and there's so many competing interests with regards to what Syria becomes.

But specifically, I'm interested in the roles of the United States of Turkey and of Israel in the recent toppling of Assad. So can you talk a little bit about the U.S., Turkey, and Israel's role in all of this and kind of what they stand again in the region now that Assad is gone? And this certainly ties back to the Palestinian resistance as well. Yeah, sorry, collecting my thoughts a little bit on that one too. I don't know if there's an end to what they stand to gain, unfortunately. Turkey has long been on this sort of neo-Ottoman streak in terms of rhetoric, and I would say behavior. A friend of mine, a very close friend and scholar who I admire a great deal, once said that Israeli nationalism and Turkish nationalism are very often two sides of the same coin. And that's truly the pinnesty. of what I think we're seeing here. Erdogan has long sort of sought out more control over Syria, whether that meant Syria remained under Assad and he was just able to manipulate it more overtly, or it meant he was physically able to go in and insert the Turkish pound into Aleppo and rave the

Turkish flag on the citadel of Aleppo. So I think there's something in the culture of how these two actors wage their wars that should be when I say these actors I mean turkey and Israel that is really interesting the the techniques that they they manage the the rhetoric that they inspire in their supporters and in their their footmen is eerily similar and I think what both of them stand to to gain in the situation is economic power often literally just a land grab I I think Israel is seeing this as a land grab and it's not going to be resisted. It's clear that the new government, if not setting strict plans, has an idea towards normalization with the entity.

So that's a clear and huge blow to the resistance in the region just in terms of its legitimacy and its recognition by the states around. it. So if the resistance loses an ally in the Syrian state, that is an immeasurable loss. At least in the moment, my faith is fully in the resistance and I believe in its victory in every fiber of my being. But we can't then ignore the manipulations done to weaken it and to put in positions of vulnerability. And I think that that is ultimately what Syria has become in the past three weeks is a huge vulnerable sore that can be taken advantage of, again, by any of the actors around it or that are able to get a foot in. Definitely. And yeah, there's already, of course,

been reports of HTS having open conflict with aspects of the Lebanese army. You know, as you said, Israel has used this as an opportunity to grab land, to bomb parts of Syria. The U.S. is certainly interested in weakening. I mean, Iran's position, the axis of resistance more broadly, all of their enemies in the region. So all of these countries certainly stand to gain in various ways, and we can already see, are already gaining in various ways. And that's kind of a brutal reality of what's happening. But on the other end, I'll go ahead, please. Sorry, if I can add really quickly, it's also really, really important to recognize that one of the first things that the HTS, one of their first directives that they employed was that all factions of the Palestinian resistance within Syria completely disarm immediately. So that resulted in huge numbers of PFLP being, whether displaced from the regions that they're sitting in currently or seeking new safety.

these are visible entities that we're talking about. We've also seen huge populations that were associated with the Syrian Socialist Nationalist Party, the SSNP in Syria, moving to Lebanon. So these individual Syrians and individuals that were associated closely with the resistance and with parties that have been allied with and materially aiding the resistance since either its inception, or at least since October 7th, have now been slowly but surely either moving out displaced from or pushed out of Syria. And that's something that's going to have a huge impact on how our ability to defend the resistance within Syria carries on in the future. Now, on the other end of that, of that seesaw, as it were, on the other end of those forces

arrayed is Iran and Russia. Of course, Russia is tied up. And it's, you know, the U.S. as proxy war with Ukraine, using Ukraine to destabilize and weaken Russia, one of its main, if only military enemies that really have the might to take it on, in addition to China, of course. So Russia is preoccupied. Iran has dealing with its own issues internally, and for a million reasons, has kind of pulled back in ways that perhaps previously Russia and Iran would not have pulled back. But they seem to have kind of, I don't know if accepted is the way to talk about it, but they've seen to sort of be, okay, this is happening. Assad has gone to Moscow, I believe, in the wake of the toppling of his government. So as far as you can tell, and of course,

this is a developing situation and all of these countries have very specific domestic issues that they're dealing with as well. But as far as you can tell, what role do Iran and Russia play in all of this? What role have they played historically? And kind of what's the reaction from them to recent events? I can speak a little bit, I guess, about. Russia, you know, one of the, there has been some reports, first of all, that Russia is moving in military equipment from its Syrian bases to Libya, which could signal a strategic pivot. And there has also been reports that they're engaging with Syria's new leadership to basically try to retain their military bases. But they also have blamed, going back to the sanctions,

they also have blamed assets overthrow to basically all these internal issues that a lot of it were caused by the sanctions. So there's a lot to be determined and to see what's going to happen. It's probably a bit too early to figure out how is this going to play out. But a lot of this is also impacting, it is having an impact on the Russian image because it basically, a lot of this is also intended to. undermine Russia's reputation as a reliable ally for Syria and the former Assad regime as well. Yeah, and to say nothing of the, I mean, speaking of Iran, you know, is to say nothing of the fact

that having hostile forces in Syria is going to continue to be a threat to Iran. So, you know, seeing whatever way this goes, of course, this is still a developing situation. We don't know how deep the infiltration will be by, you know, imperial forces. But certainly Iran is watching developments incredibly closely. Yeah, no, I just wanted to add quickly on the note of Iran, and this is something that I think I would love Therai and M. To both comment on more specifically to what Nazarbanaat said about Iran, but there is so much demonization of the Islamic Republic, particularly when it comes to Syria. You see a lot of rhetoric that Russia and Iran were both imperialist, quote unquote, forces in Syria. This is just patently not the case.

Their involvement in Syria from the moment this crisis and this proxy war started was a purely one of a military alliance. There was never any forced hand from Moscow or Tehran to alter Iran's internal policies or open up its economy for plunder. at no point did they try to seize the means of Syria's production. It was purely a military alliance and that stems back

for decades. Just to give you an example, 90% of Syria's military equipment was Soviet age, right? Because it was primarily a buyer of military equipment from the Soviet Union when the Soviet Union fell

and Putin eventually when Putin came to power he did deepen Moscow's ties with Damascus. So at no point can we consider what Iran and Russia did in Syria as

colonialist or imperialist because I do think that that rhetoric goes by but again I want to make sure that Emmen Theraya can speak more on the intricacies of what that means especially in the region because when it comes to Palestine

there is this sometimes you can get the more well I'll just let them speak I'll just let them speak about what Zavid not said about Iran specifically and what that means for the region that's an important point Angie I wanted to insert

a Syrian perspective on Iran and Russia but I think it might make more sense if you want to let them speak first on Nizabana before we lose that point sure yeah do either of you want to speak on that before we move on Theria can go ahead if you want but I can mention briefly that Nazar Banat was very clear

about the importance of and the role of Syria and supporting the Palestinian resistance. The Palestinian resistance has a chant quite often repeated in protests that says Berad Wahde, which is also something that you would hear in the streets and protests in Jordan. you would also hear it more recently when it comes to Syria. And it translates into, if you want to take the literal translation,

one country, not two countries, or one nation, not two nations, basically in reference to the fact that the Palestinian people, the Syrian people, the Jordanian people are all really one nation. Rather, what really happened is we were divided through the Sykes-Pico agreements, which basically was the secret tree between, you know, the United Kingdom and France in 1916 that divided the Ottoman Empire. And it's just a reminder that all of these borders are just borders that have been created by imperialists that are intended to make a sting that our destinies are separate from each other. So what's happening in Syria, what Adadat has a big influence on the regions, and especially on the Palestinian resistance,

Syria has historically a lot for the passage of arms to Hezbollah, which has been a very important part of the resistance against the Zionist entity. And the mere geopolitical aspect of Syria becomes critical here to supporting Palestinian resistance. So Nizarbanaq spoke about that. And he said that anything that happens in Syria will have an impact on Palestine and on Palestinian resistance. And that's, again, why it's important for us to remind ourselves of that chant, Berid Bhajan, Bhajan, that we're all really one nation, that we're all having the same destiny, and we're fighting the same enemy over here, which is the imperialist, the Zionists.

And like Kwamey Ture once said to a borer from one of his talks, he said that, again, I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something to the effect of that resistance fighters and do not align themselves, or freedom fighters do not align themselves with the interior core. They do not align themselves with colonists. And that's unfortunately what we're seeing here when it comes to Hayat Tehrir Shamm, the HTS, which has aligned itself in a very, very blatant, very explicit way with the Zionist entity, with the so-called United States and other imperial powers. Just earlier today, with Giuliani, their leader,

was basically meaning with the German and French officials. And, you know, they made it very clear where they stand, where they align themselves. So, yeah, what Nizar Bennett said very concisely in the past is that what happens in Syria has an impact on Palestine, and he's absolutely right about that. absolutely yeah therai i know you wanted to speak next and maybe it goes into the next question well about as well about how what all this means for for Palestinians going forward so feel free to

take the floor yeah i agree with mhammed there on nizad banat and um and we honor him and and his words um i think in reference to julani and his conduct of normalization that we have been seeing. And as a Muslim, I would question, I pose the question to other Muslims who I believe in good faith, many may be, you know, in support of just seeking some sort of hope in Syria and across the region for justice or an absence of oppression or some sort of improvement moving forward. And so I think it's important to examine. this normalization, using Ahmed's example from earlier today and just what we've been seeing in the last weeks. And something also that I think is important is, you know, if truly this

organization of well-established Muslims who are working in unity exists there, would we have an occupied al-Aqsa? Would we have an occupied Palestine? And so I think that it's important to, or I think rather we can't really look at this and not look at the normalization that this group has been engaging in, you know, since their recent takeover. Yeah, absolutely. I was hoping that you could also speak a little bit because, you know, we're talking about how deeply these struggles are connected. I think it's worth kind of talking a little bit about what's continuing to happen in Palestine if you could give us your thoughts because, you know, this is. something that there's lots of coverage early on and certainly in certain parts of the internet their coverage continues people certainly care but mainstream news coverage in the west at least in the u.s where i live um it seems that there's been a noticeable decline um with

regards to talking about what's happening in palestine i know there's you know winter is is here and that's causing deep problems for you know malnourished under-resourced people who are in middle of a genocide that's still occurring um so can you kind of give us an update on what's happening in Gaza and in Palestine more broadly and what the situation's looking like. Yeah. And so the heightened genocide in Gaza, of course we say heightened because the genocide in Palestine has been ongoing, as we know, for over 76 years. The heightened genocide in Gaza has become so normalized to Western audiences. We're collectively accustomed to seeing the lives of brown and black and Muslim and poor people being brutalized and this genocide has been live

streamed. And so it's not uncommon to find that people have either a helpless or defeatist attitude and responds to the collective betrayal on a global level, really. And I would love also for Mohammed to speak to this as well. This is something we'd recently been in conversation. about actually. And so the response from mainstream news is one, of course, that is expected. It's very manipulative. And we've definitely seen that Follestine has become, you know, secondary to Syria or to really anything in the region. And so even like on El Jazeera, for instance, I know earlier Brett, you mentioned other Western news, but much of it. of the coverage that we're seeing now is decreased live streaming of what's happening in

Ghazin. And we're not seeing that there is any improvement or that there is an end to this. And as you mentioned, winter is approaching and the conditions are becoming more and more harsh. And when is the end? And what does this look like for the people that are there? And how are we responding? Yeah. Muhammad, would you like to follow up on that? Sure, sure, absolutely. Thank you, Theraya. So, yeah, I think a lot of the issues that Palestinians are facing right now, like Theroyah mentioned, aren't really just coming from Western sources or just Western governments, imperial governments. They're also coming from a class of confradors in the region, like the Egyptian government, like the Jordanian government, like the Moroccan government, like the Turkish government. You'll see a lot, even the Qatari government and Al Jazeera in those outlet, like Ray I mentioned, are all complicit in all of this. Because a lot of what's happening in this class of compradors is that they present themselves as pro-Palestinian.

So, for example, if you go to Jordan, more than half of the Jordanian population is Palestinian. A lot of them will have Jordanian passports, and you'll see that in Jordan, the support for Palestine is very explicit, and it's also explicit in terms of what you see in the media and symbolically by the government, by the Jordanian government, this seems true with the Egyptian government, Moroccan government, et cetera. So they do these things because the population is largely in support of Palestine. However, these governments aren't, and they pretend that they are aligning themselves with Palestinians.

For example, if we take the Jordanian government here as an example, you'll see that the Jordanian government has opened up a land bridge for the past year or year plus, actually, because the Yemeni government, the Houthis have managed to stop basically a lot of the ships that would be trying to make their way to the Zionist entity. And the Jordanian government has been complicit in creating, along with other governments, other Arab governments, this land bridge to make sure that the Zionist entity and the settlers there are receiving commodities and products, therefore supporting the Zionist entity and its economy.

While at the same time, the Jordanian government will put out propaganda videos of dropping humanitarian aid. So there is this imagery, this illusion of the Palestinian cause as a humanitarian cause, as opposed to a liberation cause. So there has been this imagery not only of humanitarian issue or humanitarian cause, not only in Western media, but unfortunately also in some of the Arab governments, Arab countries that are basically, that make up this class of conference wars. And we've seen this also early on after October 7th of 2023, where very, very early on also in Western media,

there was an attempt to portray Palestinians and the Palestinian man as this scary terrorist that everyone should be afraid of. But I guess what a lot of people in the West didn't anticipate is that we have access to social media, we can see live streaming of what's happening in real time, and we can see the Palestinian man digging children, digging family members, digging elderly, digging women out of the rubble.

We're seeing the resilience of the Palestinian women. where you've been seeing the resilience of the elderly and the Palestinian child, and it completely, you know, destroyed this Orientalist narrative of what a Palestinian looks like. So the only thing that the West resorted to afterwards, because they couldn't continue with this image of Palestinians or terrorists, is they resorted to the imagery of, this is a humanitarian cause. We need to help these poor people. The one narrative that's been overlooked is the narrative of Palestinians as resistance, as resistance fires, as people that are fighting for a cause for liberating their land. And because a lot of non-Western

nations that, again, the class of compradors I was talking about earlier, understood that they can't portray Palestinians as terrorists because they understand that the population does not see, in their countries, do not see Palestinians as such, then they immediately resort it to just the humanitarian narrative. And I think that has become the dominant narrative, unfortunately. And when it's a humanitarian narrative, to sum this up, when it's a humanitarian narrative, humanitarian narratives don't last very long.

Humanitarian narratives, in my opinion, are a fleeting thing that we just talk about and then it's lost. And I think that's why it's really important to bring it back to what it is. It is a liberation cause. And when we say that Palestine is the compass for the world, it is because it's truly the compass for the world. Because when we look at what Palestinians have been doing, despite all of these leaddowns that they've experienced by this class of confidors and the nations that have been just witnessing them, it's easy to understand why the fight for liberating Palestine is something that can truly liberate the world in so many ways. Yeah, I mean, beautifully said.

And there are, as you said, too, some standouts, the people of Lebanon, the people of Yemen. You know, they are, at least chunks of them are still doing what they can, sacrificing in some instances their own lives for the Palestinian cause. But yeah, they're surrounded by compradors and the brutal anti-human. West, the anti-human terrorists that are Israel in the United States. They're the, they're the, they're the evildoers in this world, as well as their henchmen. But Theriah, you wanted to add something as well? Yeah, and I really appreciate what Ahmed said there, and truly our men have been demonized for opposing the theft of their liberation and land. But, you know, to add to what you said there, but about America and the Zionist settler entity, I think what's more of a

betrayal and abandonment for the Palestinian people comes as the service of Jordan and Egypt as being the entities that support this heightened genocide against the Palestinian people. Our expectations do not lie in the West. as either regimes that will save or as ones that will in any way help the people. We see that brown and black people in this very country are brutalized by the police and across the systemic racism that exists in this white supremacist foundation in which we live. And so I think the treachery comes most from the surrounding nations that have participated actively, and including Turkey, by the way, in this genocide. And we saw just this week, including this morning, that the Palestinian Authority, which we also refer to as the arm of the Zionist entity, go into the city of Janine and murder Palestinian.

for, well, this morning it was a father and a child, but Palestinians for organizing and then calling them, quote, unquote, troublemakers when they are in fact going into cities like Tul Karam and Nablus and Janine and Tobas and serving the entity as they are put in place by the West. Yeah, so it's a crucial point that, you know, the people in the know already, this is obvious, but for those that don't know, yeah, the PA is in arm of the Israeli entity and is certainly teaming up with Israel and the U.S. to squash and prevent and be a bulwark against Palestinian resistance. So that's something that certainly needs to be noted. As we end this conversation, and again, I'm so deeply appreciative of all your time and your knowledge on this

issue and helping people understand what's actually happening. But I do want to make sure that each one of you, if you want so, can have a couple moments to say. anything else that you would like, anything we didn't cover, any last words you'd like to offer to our listeners before we wrap up with some recommendations? Yeah, I think it's just important to think about how Palestine is an all-encompassing liberation issue, and it's not a fragmented issue in the way that it's presented to us, even when people are well-intentioned and want to label it, either perhaps a feminist issue or a humanitarian issue, and the list goes on.

And this does not mean that people that identify within any marginalized community cannot perhaps create a connection or relate, but we need to call it what it is. And it's very important that we recognize the truth here when it comes to Palestine and that this is imperialism and colonialism and land theft and occupation and violence. And so there is an absence of complexity around erasure and genocide, and sometimes we unintentionally contribute that erasure when we want to perhaps appeal to those living in the West by creating fragments within the movement to try to make it more appealing when in fact it's most important that we authentically support the movement by. centering the truth and the people. Well said.

I've said this to quite a few folks in my life, so I apologize if any of you were hearing this for the second time. But I think that Syria in the past month for me and Palestine, probably for the last year and a half now, should have illuminated the complete lack of empathy that we manage to invoke in our politics and in our public discussions generally. I think that politics and in particular liberation is an act of radical empathy. And the moment that we detach it from that radical empathy is the moment that we lose any agency and any control over it.

And we relinquish that control completely to the imperial forces that are operating from the polar opposite of that empathy. So I want to call, honestly, on any Syrians that might hear this, particularly those in diaspora, to reconnect, to listen to the Syrians that are in Syria now, to hear what they've lived under for decades, for the past decade in particular, and to be vocal, even if you have never spoken about politics, even if you manage to shamefully get through the past year and a half without. a word, let this be your moment and take some responsibility and really speak up because we are watching machinations of imperial violence tear us apart. And many of us are watching our homelands, our families, our loved ones bleed out in the process. And the one thing we have the privilege of doing in diaspora, the privilege, the responsibility of doing in diaspora, that they often do not have even the right, the access to back in our homelands is the ability to speak and the ability to say what is happening to our people and to say the names of our martyrs and to hold

to our principles, to hold to our thoughabit. And that's what I can ask of the Syrian people today, we cannot accept complacency. We cannot accept our own marginal improvement for any sacrifice of the Palestinian resistance or any liberation cause. We cannot be complicit in that. Movingly said, absolutely. I guess I'll add one more thing. I think one of the things that have been heightened with the ongoing heightened genocide is the identity politics that we've seen over the last couple years. And I think what's happening in Palestine has reminded us of why it's important to let go of identity politics and to stick to a set of principles, or in this case the Thawabit, because we've seen a lot of celebrities,

glorified. We've seen a lot of characters that have been put on a pedestal instead of principles that should be put on a pedestal. I can bring you a Palestinian confrador, a Syrian confrador, a Jordanian confidore. Just because someone is Syrian or Palestinian or Jordanian doesn't necessarily make them the speaker for that group of people, rather history and the reality on the ground is what really dictates what should be happening and what we really should be believing or not believing. And history tells us that the West and the Imperial Corps have been stealing from native people, have been plundering around the world, they've been waging wars, they've been creating

propaganda to vilify the native. and that has not changed, but still ongoing. So I think we need to let go of identity politics because it is very dominant framework and especially in the so-called United States and we need to always remind ourselves of that so that we can move forward. Absolutely. Ed, final words?

Yeah, I just wanted to say to sort of wrap up everything that's been said, said here, I think it's incumbent on us, people like myself, who are outside of these communities that have been struggling against the conquest of Palestine for so long. We need to understand, as Muhammad was saying, this is not a humanitarian cause. This is a cause against the machinations of our empire. It is our government that is plundering the region. And there is a, concerted effort now, as there has been for the last 20 years, to create a new Middle East, according to Washington's designs. And Gaza is currently ground zero of that. The reason why Gaza is

being pummeled so much is specifically because it resists the strongest proxy of the United States, which is Israel. That is the reason that they are so disproportionate. targeted and we need to elevate the consciousness of those around us to recognize that this is an imperialist project that Syria has been toppled through imperialist machinations and the only way we can continue to struggle is to listen to these principled voices like those who you've had on today and take their guidance. Yeah. Amen to that. And Theriah, Angie, Muhammad, Ed, I appreciate so much you all coming on and, you know, in the principled and passionate way that you have and shared your time

and knowledge with us today. Before I let you all go, please feel free to let listeners know if you want to, where they can find you, your work online, or any recommendations or resources that you would offer to those who want to learn more about Syria, Palestine, and the region. in a principled way. I know I think it was Angie earlier who mentioned Dr. Roy from Texas's YouTube lecture. I'll make sure to include that in the show notes alongside the episode on the sanctions within Syria, the history of that on guerrilla history. But is there anything else that you would like to offer before we wrap up? Absolutely. I am available on Twitter and Instagram. on Twitter I am at

Levantine which and on Instagram I am and A-N-J-X-L-A-B I post frequently on Syria and Palestine in particular as well as Lebanon and the region more broadly on Twitter I've collected several thoughts on the

sanctions I've collected significant interviews and research from the times when I was in Syria and able to do research on the ground. And I would be happy to provide any of those as well. So thank you so much for this opportunity and the platform to speak. And thank you all so much for the work that you do in teaching and in speaking publicly on this. You guys inspire me. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'll be sure to include all of that. Anybody else have anything you would like me to include at the end?

I personally keep a low profile on social media. And I generally do that in other areas as well, but I would recommend for people to follow in Mayadine as a good news source for the region. I know a lot of people like to follow Jazeera because they do present themselves as pro-Palestinian, but some of the Jazeera's reporting is questionable as well. But I would recommend Nmei-Din news outlets as a good source for news in the region. Definitely. I also want to say the cradle is an incredible outlet. which does a lot of hard-hitting reporting from voices in the region.

So I think that's also something that people should have on their radar. Okay. I'm on Instagram at Decolonize, the classroom. And I center the voices of Palestinians who are principled on the ground and regularly suggest Palestinians living in Gaza and across Palestine, whether it be journalists or others, as well as readings and interviews. And also I suggest an Instagram page called Edfer Palib, where in the link in their bio, there are actually over 100 resources that consist of readings and articles and lesson plans for teachers and such.

And Brett, I can share both of you as both of those with you as well. And I appreciate being in community with all of you today and the space. Thank you for that. And I'll link to all of that in the show notes for sure. And genuinely from the bottom of my heart, open invite anytime any of you want to come back on to share your perspectives, update listeners about what's happening, anything like that. A huge salute to all of you for the work that you're putting in, educating people on this front and it really is invaluable especially at this moment in time and thank you to ed for putting this together ed was the contact i had and um ed made this entire conversation possible so so salute to you as well my friend um but yeah thank you all so much keep up the amazing work um keep in touch and

yeah love and solidarity thank you we appreciate and appreciate your time and thank you ed for connecting us thank you guys thank you guys my my motto in life is to surround myself a people who were smarter than me. So thank you all for being who you are. Thank you all. It was wonderful to connect with everyone today. Thank you so much. Everyone have a great night. Take me back, oh, God. To my country, a nightingale. Take me back, oh God, to my country. A nightingale. A nighting hill on the wind of a cloud

In the light of a star Turned me a lily That flutters on the bosom Of a spring and a hill Singing sunrise Singing spring Nelting in my warmth The frost

I'm not a frost Oh, I'm not a Dreamer Oh God Take me back to my country take me back to Palestine

take me back to my country take me back oh I'm not a dreamer oh God take me back oh I'm not a dreamer oh God take me back

Take me back to my country. Take me back to Palestine. Take me back to my country. Take me back to my country. Take me back.