Rev Left Radio - Palestine Action: Direct Action Against the Death Machine

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

In this powerful episode, we sit down with a frontline activist from Palestine Action, the UK-based direct action network targeting Elbit Systems—the Israeli weapons manufacturer responsible for arming and enabling genocide in Palestine and beyond. We dig into the strategy of physically dismantling the military-industrial complex, the stakes of this fight, and the growing number of political prisoners facing terror charges for their resistance. Max, from Palestine Action, joins Breht to discuss the organization, the moral responsibility those in the imperial core have toward the victims of imperialism, Palestine Action's tactics and strategy, why they focus on Elbit Systems in particular, the role weapons manufacturers play in the ongoing genocide of Palestinians as well as perpetuating imperialism and colonialism around the planet, The Filton 18 and other political prisoners, the deafening silence and lack of solidarity shown by liberal and mainstream pro-Palestine movements, and much more. Learn more, support, and donate to PalAction HERE ------------------------------------------------------------- Support 3 families in Gaza HERE Support Rev Left and get access to bonus episodes: www.patreon.com/revleftradio Make a one-time donation to Rev Left at BuyMeACoffee.com/revleftradio Follow, Subscribe, & Learn more about Rev Left Radio HERE Outro Beat Prod. by flip da hood  

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. On today's episode, we have Max, a representative from Palestine Action, UK, on to talk about the organization. Palestine Action, as many of you may have known or heard, is a direct action-oriented group that specifically targets weapons, manufacturers that are used in the Israeli genocide of Palestinians and in the broader movements of imperialism and colonialism around the world. We talk about Elbit Systems, we talk about the strategy of direct action, we talk about the international and global nature of imperialism and colonialism and how weapons manufacturers like Raytheon, like Elbit Systems,

produce the raw material, the raw weaponry that are used to mass murder, innocent people all over the world in the entrance of capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism. I do have to say up front to give us legal protection that we are not advocating here at RefLeft, that anybody go out and do any illegal activity whatsoever. All we are doing are highlighting an organization of people who are willing themselves to take on that responsibility and to face whatever consequences they have to face and to still decide that they want to take part in direct action to try to do everything they can to stop this death machine in a material way.

And because they are willing to do that, They also face severe consequences from the state. And something I say in this episode and that I want to also reiterate up front, always remember that what Palestine action and other organizations like them are doing is trying to stop the mass murder of innocent civilians. Right. It's not a crime in the UK or the United States to commit a fucking genocide. It's not a crime to bomb hospitals to murder children by the tens of thousands

so that a settler colonial entity can get more land or it can put down the resistance that the victims of its settler colonialism and occupation have towards it. Right? That's all legal. That's all fine. Nobody's going to jail for the mass murder of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, including tens of thousands of fucking babies, children, right? 50% of people in Gaza are under the age of 18. This is a unique genocide in human history

and that it is hyper-focused on murdering children. that's not illegal but if you dare to step up and to do property destruction to stop the manufacturing of the weapons that go to murder babies that's a crime

that's seen as terrorism by the states engaged in genocide so that's the system we're working with that is that is the moral background to this discussion and I never want to people to lose sight of that. Even hosting this episode could bring some blowback on me, somebody

that has myself been visited by the FBI on numerous occasions. Even though I commit no crime, I do free speech and I highlight organizations, I talk about history and philosophy, and I create a vision for a world liberated from these disgusting death machines of imperialism, colonialism, and capitalism, and fascism. So the state will always see people like Palestine action as criminals. They'll even try to intimidate people like me for even hosting them or talking about them.

But the real criminals are those engaged in mass murder. The real criminals are those aiding, abetting, arming, and funding a fucking genocide that's ongoing as we speak. The real criminals are those who are willing to destroy massive amounts of human lives and futures in the

process of extracting as much wealth and power for those at the very top as they possibly physically can, that will destroy the biosphere, that will destroy babies in their cribs to get more land, money, raw materials, and geopolitical hegemonic power over other people. So just frame all discussions with that in the background. And for the FBI agents that are assigned to listen to every Rev Left episode, just think whose side you're on. That you would be, you would be given a task to come and spend hours of your life

to listen to a show like this on the pretense that we are dangerous or scary or somehow criminal while defending a system that as we speak is mass murdering children and you go home and you look yourself in the mirror and be like I did good today I served my country today well you have to live with you I have to live with me so here's my discussion with Max from Palestine Action

and I hope people find it illuminating at least. Enjoy. yes well welcome max um it's an honor to have you on i've been meaning to have somebody on from palestine action for quite some time um so so it's a pleasure and i got to give a shout out to our mutual friend musa who set us up from the black alliance for peace um originally intended to join us but um i believe he's going to cuba so he's unable to to join us this time but he's been on in the past and he'll be on in the future but in any case it's a pleasure to have you on and yes today we're going to be talking about your organization, Palestine Action. So just to set the stage a little bit, for listeners who may be unfamiliar, what is Palestine Action and how did it originally

emerge as an organization? Yeah, I mean, Palestine Action emerged in response to demands of liberation. It's an organization that is committed to making a material difference in the war on Palestine and to end British complicity in Zionism, which is, a 100-year-long sorted history. Palestine action was founded five years ago. It started when a few friends and committed organizers who were sick of sort of campaigning as usual took the fight directly to Elbit systems,

Israel's largest weapons producer. Elbit Systems makes over 85% of Israel's drone fleet. And beginning in July of 2020, Palestine and Action has engaged in a relentless, years-long direct action campaign, where over 1,000 people have taken direct action against the Israeli. military industry, both in the U.K. and around the world. Now, Palestine Action was originally born in the U.K., but it spread. Is it all over the world? I know it's in the U.S. Are there chapters in more countries than that?

Yeah, we have actions that have happened in the last few months, everywhere from across Europe. We have an extremely robust campaign, both in Ireland, Scotland, the Netherlands, even in Denmark, and as far south as Australia. Beautiful. We've also seen direct action tactics taking off in places like Tunisia. There are, but really the Elbit campaign in the UK has been a sort of beacon of hope to many people. We have forcibly shut down two Elbit weapons factories that we're operating here in the U.K.

And we've caused millions and millions of pounds of damage to the other ones. We are a consistent and relentless presence anywhere that Israeli weapons are being manufactured here in the U.K. Yeah, and we'll definitely get into the direct action. strategy but let's talk a little bit more about elbit systems because palestine action has over the past year and a half and in the face of the ongoing genocide in palestine come to focus on physically shutting down elbit systems starting in the UK but then expanding beyond that and this is obviously a strategy that is much more confrontational and direct action oriented than merely protesting or other forms of more milk toast forms of resistance organizing not that they don't

matter, but they're just, you know, somewhat less directly confronting the death machine itself. But before we get into the actions and the strategies, can you just tell us a little bit more about Elbit Systems and why they are such a core target of Palestine action in the U.S. and the U.S. and the U.K. and beyond. Elbit Systems is Israel's largest weapons manufacturer. They make, as I said before, 85% of Israel's drone fleet, and drone weaponry is Israel's number one export. Elbit is brags about its weaponry being battle tested on Palestinians, and they sell their battle tested weapons to repressive regimes around the world. Every moment that we can disrupt Elbit is a victory. Halting production at one site interrupts their entire supply chain.

So we're really interested in halting the flow of weapons that are being. targeted to that target Palestinians, and Elbit is an obvious target based on their sort of central role they play in the Israeli military. They brag on their website about being a parastatal organization that has operational support, provides operational support to Israeli military mission. Yeah, can you discuss the direct action strategy against Elbit? What does it involve? What's the strategic goal behind it? And honestly, what are the stakes for the activists involved? Yeah, I mean, this is a great question. We usually break our strategy down to five major components. And I love to go over them with you. Yeah. Number one, our strategy revolves around disruption. In order for our campaign to be successful, we disrupt our targets.

Our targets run as businesses who need to be able to operate consistently in order to fulfill orders, build revenue, and make profits. Ultimately, they are designed to make monies, and every time we disrupt our targets, we inhibit their ability to run their deadly business. I personally took action. I locked myself to the gates of a weapons factory that operates in Kent in the UK. Now, we're able, based on Elbit's profit reports, to know that by shutting down business, just by shutting down operations at one day, how much profit loss we can cause one factory. But that's not our only goal. It's not just to prevent workers from showing up. We also try and gain access to the buildings and break the things inside or break the physical building. And we don't just do it once.

Another primary tenet of our strategy is that they are sustained. I think throughout history, all social movements are sustained. We're not doing one-offs here. And the thing that we really want to do with our sustained disruptions are to create a dilemma. Basically, that dilemma for our primary targets like Elbit is having to figure out if they want to continue operating here in the UK. Now, in a few communities, already Elbit has turntail, run, and shuttered their factories. And this is an incredible victory, not just for campaigners in the UK, but around the world. For example, Elbit's Tamworth factory was forced to sell to another company, which stopped using the site.

to manufacture is Rivilly tank parts. They had to sell this factory at a loss and their margin drops 75% due to the constant disruption we were causing. For secondary targets, basically, if you work with Elbit, we are going to target you. And for those targets, whether they are insurers or logistics companies or internet providers,

Our basic goal is to make working with Elbit more expensive than their contracts are profitable. So if you work with Elbit, you can expect Palestine action and have to start to factor that into whether or not taking that contract from Elbit is worth it. And we are extremely focused. I mean, there's plenty of awful companies out there, and there's plenty of businesses that are complicit. But Palestine action targets Elbit systems whose business model is reliant on the destruction of Palestine. And they're the manifestation not only of the Zionist regime in Britain, but Zionism and Zionism's role in repression worldwide. The final sort of component to our strategy, and this is, I think, the most important one, is that they involve a component of sacrifice.

We are taking on the U.S. war machine and their chief lieutenant, the Zionist entity. The U.S. is a death machine, and as we've seen over the last 18 years, the brutality of this genocide is unlike anything. I, you know, it's out of a nightmare. And we're trying to win. We're trying to stop the genocide. We're trying to make a material impact on the war on Palestine. And to do that, it's going to have some costs.

We have a lot of people who are in prison right now. And it's pivotal to understand that Palestine action doesn't seek to glorify arrest as the means to create change. We're not, we don't think a certain number of arrests are going to do the trick, but we do think that in order to actually win, and we're actually actually be effective, in order to actually make a material difference and cause empire to question itself, there is going to involve sacrifices.

One of the ways we know were effective, is that the state is really targeting us. Oh, absolutely. And when you compare the sacrifice and the Imperial Court compared to what the Palestinian sacrifice every day, there's no comparison. And so it's really honorable to be prepared to take on that amount of sacrifice. Now, just to be incredibly clear for people that don't know about Palestine action, as far as I'm aware that this is focused on property destruction primarily at Elbit Systems,

manufacturing plants, headquarters. and it's not obviously involving harming human beings. It's property destruction, but it's also using specific tools. Can you kind of clarify if I'm right about the property aspect and then talk about what tools you use? Because in videos I've seen, there's been like certain chemical sprays, but it's unclear what those sprays are and why they're being used, et cetera. Oh, sure. I mean, we do a lot of painting of Elbit and companies complicit with Elbit. red paint. But I think the spraying you're talking about is ways of damaging Elbit's communication

systems, damaging the wires that they use to connect to the internet, for instance. We are trying to make the factories not operational. And to do that, we are physically dismantling them with our own hands. And sometimes we use sludge hammers. There have been some incredible Palestine action operations that have had vans drive through the walls of these factories. We've had actionists climb up onto the roof with sledgehammers and smashed big holes in the rooftops of these factories. And there's just some incredible images of Palestine actionists in the rain opening up enormous holes on the rooftops of these Israeli weapons factories and ruining everything inside. Yeah, absolutely.

And the thing is, and we're going to shift into a conversation about the sacrifice, which is facing repression, facing jail time, et cetera. But I just want to say something up front is that when the mainstream media talks about these actions and Palestine action as an organization and shows these videos, they're going to frame it as, this is extreme, this is, this is violent, this is property destruction. Surely you could get you. demands heard by doing more peaceful things but what we always have to keep in mind is that this is a direct assault on a machine engaged in genocide so compared to the immiseration death and

destruction of tens of thousands of innocent human lives the lives that are being taken as we record this episode the the property destruction that palestine action does is nothing in comparison to the real human devastation that the Israeli and U.S. Imperial and Colonial Death Machine does every single day. And those death machines couldn't operate. They couldn't kill people at the rates that they do if it weren't for weapons manufacturers like Elbit, who not only supply the weapons, but brag about it as you made very clear. So whenever you hear the media or anybody else, the state, demonizing these activists and demonizing direct action, Think just immediately about the death and destruction that these states and these death machines are inflicting on innocent people all around the world.

And then you can see that in comparison, this is nothing. And it's actually quite heroic that people are willing to sacrifice their own personal freedom to try to put themselves in the machinery, in the gears of this death machine and bring it to a screeching halt. And hitting these companies where it hurts, which is their profit margins. That's the only language they speak is power, violence, and money. And if you're not speaking that language, you will be ignored, as we've seen time and time again. There are 19 comrades that are currently in prison, and I believe 18 held without trial under terror charges. Here in the United States, we had the case of the Merrimack 3, who, as a part of the U.S. branch of Palestine action, engaged in direct action against Elbit Systems in the Northeast, and were convicted and sent to prison as well.

One of them is a comrade that I've spoken to when we've had on guerrilla history, Kala, who is a, a really dedicated comrade and organizer and activist who I have nothing but, you know, love and admiration for. So with all of that in mind, like, how are these charges being framed by the state? And what do they reveal about the political climate in the UK and the U.S. in relation to the ongoing Israeli genocide? Listen, I really want to spend some good time getting clear on the case of the Filton 18. But I just want to start off by saying, I visited one of the Filton 18 yesterday and HMP Wandsworth in the UK, which is one of the most notorious prisons in all of England. And the Palestine action activist who I spoke with had a message for your listeners that I really want to share.

And I think this is a nice way to frame the entire conversation. He said, and this is Shibi, Comrade Shibby, he said, listen, I would much rather be sitting in HMP1s where it's standing accused of causing over 2 million pounds worth of damage to an Israeli drone factory, than I would being at home standing accused by myself of not doing enough to stop this genocide. These are the 18 people that we're talking about here are some of the most courageous, most lovely people that I just want to make clear that everyone understands

what we're talking about here. We're not talking about loners or people who don't love life. We're talking about people who are intrigal to their communities. We're talking about people who are their favorite member of their friend groups. We're talking about the most vivacious, delightful, and full of life people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. These are truly the best of the best. And they are all sitting in jail right now, standing accused of trying to stop this. genocide with their own hands. In August 2024, a Palestine action group broke into the newly built

secret site of Elbit. And the site in Filton, which is in the city of Bristol, was marketed as a research and development site. Yet the six activists who were inside managed to outmaneuver They're the well-paid and incredibly large security guards that are employed by Elbit. And what they uncovered were dozens and dozens of boxes of quad-cocter drones, the very drones that Israel uses in Gaza to fire at the survivors of their bombing. The six who were arrested were brought into cells and then re-arrested under the Terrorism Act. They were held incommunicado for days and have now been in prison without trial for over six months. Since then, a further 12 people have been arrested in connection to this action.

They were captured in armed raids on their homes by mobs of counterterrorism police. Sometimes 75 armed police would enter this single resident of a Palestine accident. The 18 are now on remand for this action that, that according to the, government filings disrupted the supply of military apparatuses to be used against Palestinians. I think it's important to discuss these terrorism charges and get really clear on them. The Filton 18 have not been charged with terrorism, yet the Home Office continues to, quote unquote, investigate all 18 under the counterterrorism legislation. This basically means that they enter prison as a category

a high risk stripping them of the few rights prisoners have. The treatment and use of counterterrorism to hold these actions in communicato and

strip them of their prisoner's rights, the United Nations has now officially declared that the original six being held unlawfully incommunicado by the counterterrorism unit possibly amounts to forced disappearance or special uh rapid tours on forced disappearance have condemned the use of the the quote unjustified use of u.k. counterterror laws against palisina action um why is the state trying to use counterterrorism

against us I think this is like the important question right yeah um it's because we're effective. And one thing it hasn't done, and this is a real testament to the prisoners movement we have built, is it hasn't deterred us. Since the arrest of the Filton 18, Palestine action has had multiple high-level operations against Israeli factories causing millions of pounds of damage and not including counterterrorism charges. So it does seem, at least temporarily that though the 18 continue to be held for under the Terrorism Act, the state has not charged any subsequent actsiness with counterterrorism. So it does feel like the incredible movement that we've built to free the filth in 18 has

at least temporarily dissuaded the state from trying to misuse its counterterrorism laws against Palestine and action again. Well, before we even move on, I just want to, and we'll probably revisit this at the end, but what are some ways why we're on this subject that people listening can immediately reach out and help the Filton 18 in particular? Number one is material support. The amount of money and resources we have to pour in for legal visits and support for both the actionists and their family while inside has been just sort of staggering. The state really makes

it expensive to look after prisoners. And we're doing an incredible job of it, but it's being completely powered through grassroots funding. And so we would love for people who have a little extra money to throw it at the Filton 18 support, which you can find on our website at the donation page. But aside from that, we're having, we've had wonderful experiences from people around the world writing letters. I mean, we've had murals dedicated to the 15, the Filton 18 showing up in Gaza. We've had, we've seen Filton 18 banners being carried in Yemen and across the Imperial Corps. People have been supporting these people because they, I think they see them as the very best that the movement has to offer. And they would love to hear from all of your

listeners. So please write to the prisoners, support them financially, and make them the center of, or at least one of the centers of our movement in the same way that Palestinian make their prisoners a pillar of their national identity, it is really important that we build a movement that takes care of the people who are facing the most state repression. Yes, absolutely. I just got finished with an interview with the directors of the encampments, and we talked at length about Mahmoud Khalil and other student encampment activists who have been, you know, jailed threatened for deportation are sitting in Louisiana detention centers right now. And I think it's crucial to understand that the Filton 18 and others like them are part of our political prisoners

as well. And the only way that we're going to survive the coming years is if we have each other's backs. We cannot forget about one another. We cannot turn our backs. We cannot ignore. We cannot move on with the media cycle until every single one of our political prisoners are free. And if you're in the US. That's where you can focus, but you can also help out the UK. And if you're in the UK and you're listening, and I know we have a large audience in the UK, there are ways that you can, you know, immediately get involved in helping the Filton 18, letter writing, donating material support. Not everybody is cut out to do direct action. And I think we all understand that. That's a that's a rarefied skill set and talent and willingness to sacrifice that not everybody has for various different reasons. There's nothing wrong with that. But everybody can play a role in supporting and being a part. of the broader movement that doesn't turn our back on our political prisoners. And I also want to make one more comment really quickly. Shibi has been on the show before many, many years ago. And we've had a long time behind the scenes personal relationship that has at times been tumultuous.

But I just want you to send him a message, if you can, that I let bygones be bygones. All of that is in the past. that I have nothing but love, admiration, and respect for him and his comrades and for the sacrifices they're making for the Palestinian people. And at the end of the day, despite any disagreements we may have had personally, we're on the same side politically. And I'm always here for him, for the Filton 18, and for anybody that is willing to put their own freedom on the line for the benefit of Palestinian. So I send that out to him with my whole heart, and I hope you pass that message along to him. Yeah, I'd also just say that, I mean, I think one thing that we've all learned in the last

18 months, right, is that we're not really out of place. I wish we're in a position right now that we could boycott our way out of, but I don't think boycotts are enough. I don't think marches are enough. I don't think that I think we all need to sort of take stock of what the, of what 18 months of genocide means for our movement, right? It's been extremely painful to not be able to stop. It's been sort of crushing, right? Every day waking up and looking at our phones and seeing just the most horrific things anyone has ever even dreamed of witnessing.

And then to go out and march or sign a petition. petition feels so disempowering. And I just want to tell your listeners that taking direct action for me was one of the most empowering feelings I've ever had in my

entire life. I did not, like the day that I prevented workers from building weapons that were going to be used on Palestinians was one of the greatest days of my entire life. And Palestine action is

offering crash courses in direct action that anyone around the world can sign up for and at least gauge your own personal interest and what sort of targets the Israeli military industry relies on that are near you and that are actionable by you. These are direct action has earned its hearing And now is, I believe, the time for it. I can't personally survive another 18 months of this. And I know a lot of people feel the same way. It can't, we can't try the same things over and over again. We can't afford to fail to stop the genocide for another 18 months.

I can't, I know this is sort of obvious to everyone listening that we, like, we have to try something new. And Palestine action has had successes over the last 18 months. Um, ones that I don't think are, uh, would be, would have been achievable, uh, through just sort of,

um, tried and true BDS methods. Yeah. Or tried and tired BDS method. Yeah. I agree. It's, that is one tool in the tool set, but it is not sufficient. And we've seen that, um, we've seen that be revealed. And so the direct action taken by the comrades and Palestine action is genuinely heroic and is the sort of escalation that is needed because the death machine is escalating their murder as we speak, is escalating their genocide, not only in Palestine, but around the world, bombing Yemen, bombing Yemenese water sources because the people of Yemen are the only ones willing to step up and put something on the line to try to prevent or stop the genocide in Palestine. And so they're being punished.

the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stuff, and you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all. I do have a question to ask about the org as a whole. You talk about individual members, who've obviously been brutally cracked down on by the state, how is the state relating to Palestine action as an organization? And does it differ between different states? Like, is the

UK different in how it relates to the organization as a whole than the U.S. or Ireland? I'm just kind of curious about that. It's an interesting question. Obviously, every country has their own laws in their own way of dealing with the movement. But I think the important thing to understand is Palestine action is seen as a, the most radical, perhaps the most radical sector of the movement, and certainly it's most effective one. And I think that's why, like the combination of our ability to actually generate a sustained direct action campaign that has produced real results is threatening to the state. And anytime the state feels threatened, you can see a crackdown. And that's

why groups like Palestine Action, like Sammy Dune, like journalists from the electronic intofada, face the first weather balloons of state repression. But if If we tolerate it against us, it'll come for all of us. Absolutely. And we can't tire of pointing out this brutal fact that for the U.S., the U.K., and these other countries, mass murdering tens of thousands of children and innocent human beings is not against the law. But trying to stop machines from creating or factories from creating weapons that go to kill 10,000 children and innocent civilians, that's a crime. They'll hold you without trial.

They'll call you a terrorist. They'll bring the entire state apparatus down on you to stop you. That's the disgusting system that we are all dealing with and that we're up against, where you can do a genocide for imperialism and colonialism. But to try to stop that genocide, that's the crime. That's terrorism. That's the system that we're up against. So I just, again, just need to really bring that forward in people's minds how absurd this fucking system is.

But I want to move on to the next question. And there's been a striking silence. from mainstream and liberal sectors of even the Palestinian Solidarity Movement, including the BDS-aligned organizations regarding Palestine action and their political prisoners. And why do you think this silent persists? And what are the political implications of that silence? I mean, we're just talking about what happens when we're silent when they come for the most radical sectors, when they come for the most effective sectors of the movement.

what's to stop them from then coming for the marchers. Indeed, in the UK, after, you know, years of silence by the Palestine Solidary Committee about Palestine action and just sort of, you know, they pretend our, we don't really exist and they don't really acknowledge us. We haven't been platformed at any of their rallies for instance. But now Palestine Solidarity Committee themselves are being repressed. And this is a direct consequence of them not standing with the more radical sectors. We're experiencing universal repression right now.

And it starts with the most radical sectors, but it creeps towards the more liberal elements that you were talking about. I think there's like a really nice illustration of our, are two different approaches. Last year, Palestine action began a direct action campaign against Barclays Bank. Barclays Bank is an imperialist bank. It is beyond the type of institution

that it doesn't make any sense to make a moral appeal to. They were holding millions of pounds, of Elbit stock. And Palestine action began a relentless direct action campaign. In the middle of the night, dozens and dozens of Barclays bank branches were smashed up with hammers and paint. There were numerous attacks on bank branches in the city of Manchester, so much so that for about a month, if you wanted to say,

close your account or have a meeting with a bank employee about their investments in Elbit, you would be unable to because the bank was unable to open. Even though Elbit's stock has been increasing in value since the genocide began, we forced Barclays to sell all of their stock in Elbit because it was more profitable to sell it and not have to deal with our direct action campaign. than it was to hang on to it. This is a real and replicable result that you don't have to be in the UK to undertake. And the option that BDS has sort of been offering is a moral appeal-reliant close-your-account campaign

that has been going on for three years now. Way before the genocide even started, PSC was asking its members to close their accounts. It hasn't worked, and it's too slow, especially in a time of collected genocide. I think there are lessons to pull out here, and one of them really has to be, what are the tactics that we're going to be deploying right now?

And will they make a difference in the world we live in? We live in a world in which marches month after month after month in the UK, sometimes totally featuring a million people failed to stop the genocide, failed to make a meaningful difference in capital's approach to Israel and the war. But four months of smashing up bank branches made a major difference. And I think that needs to be considered right now, especially as the violence in Gaza returns with such an unparalleled vengeance.

I think you make a really important point about these so-called mainstream or more liberal sectors of the Palestinian Solidarity Movement, actually shooting themselves in the foot by disconnecting themselves or trying to distance themselves from the more direct action-oriented radical elements of the movement because, as you said, that creeping authoritarianism and fascist crackdown doesn't stop at the most extreme. It seeps in to even these more liberal or mild-mannered forms of protest as well. And they start with the more extreme. They start with people that they can attack more easily. Then they continue moving forward. It's never going to be enough. And so when you

try to alienate and distance yourself from these sectors you fail to create a united front that you really only end up harming your own organization and your own movement in the long run and the tactics that are used against the quote unquote extreme elements are eventually inevitably turned against you as well so i think at the very least these organizations need to make room for a diversity of tactics like what what are you fighting against you're fighting against a fucking genocide so to say that hey we should only be doing these super non-offensive, you know, tried and true sort of milk toast things and we can't do anything more extreme. Well, you're not just protesting a corporation who dumped a pollutant into a

lake. You're protesting a genocide. The mass extermination of human beings that is ongoing. And so if you're not willing to at least make room for the fact that other people and other organizations are willing to take it a step further and to put their lives and their freedom on the line for Palestinian liberation from genocide, then what do you really stand for and believe in in the first place? So I would make that appeal absolutely to these organizations. Open up space. We need a united front. We need a diversity of tactics. You may not be interested in doing this sort of direct action, but how dare you condemn or distance or ignore those who are willing to do that and then to think that you're actually in solidarity with Palestine because

the Palestinians are facing all manner of brutality and torture and destruction. And so the people willing to try to do something more direct to stop that, I think should absolutely be embraced by every single element of the Palestinian solidarity movement. Let's go ahead and move to this next question. We've talked about a little bit about Elbit systems and Elbit weapons and their war crimes but, and you kind of alluded to this earlier, it's not just in Palestine. It's all over the place. And it's also in places like Rwanda and the DRC. So can you kind of elaborate a little bit more on Elbit's role in these conflicts and what this tells us about the transnational nature of the military industrial complex? Totally. This is one of my favorite topics to talk about. I really think through, if we can understand the flow of Zionist weapons, we really can understand how. American Empire reproduces itself. This is not a new thing either.

The Israeli military's role in Africa from creating the South African nuclear weapons program in the 80s to the murder of Moroccan communists in the 90s. Like, this is a decades-long, nasty, sordid relationship. Elbit, for instance, I mean, like, to understand what, I think, like, let's take a good, hard look at the DRC. The mineral deposits in the DRC are being exploited by U.S. companies. And those, in order to better exploit the Congo's resources, the U.S. benefits from a destabilized Congo. And in order to destabilize Congo, the U.S. has facilitated Rwandan soldiers firing Elbit weapons to destabilize the north of the country. This isn't the first or an isolated thing.

Modi is the world's biggest purchaser. He's Elbit's number one customer. Elbit drones, as we speak right now, are flying over Kashmir. The Elbit rocket launchers that were used last year by Azerbaijan in their ethnic cleansing campaign against Armenia. The thing that brings all these repressive regimes, the one thing they all have in common is their relationship to Elbit systems. If they are of service to U.S. Empire, you can bet that Elbit will sell them the weapons needed to carry out atrocities, whether they are in Palestine, in Congo, in Haiti, or in Armenia. There are numerous ways that we can see the way imperialism works. But one really good one, I think, is understanding the flow of elbit weapons. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the nature of

capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism. It is a global system of domination. And so that is why the resistance to it has to be globalized, has to be internationalism. and scope and has to constantly draw these connections between seemingly disparate movements and forms of oppression and show how they are all connected to the underlying system that we oppose and that we are trying to militate against in any and all means necessary to end this death machine of just destruction and brutality and genocide and exploitation and extraction at all cost to human life for the profit and and enrichment of a few a relative few in the global elite. Like that's this entire global system

operates to siphon money and wealth and power to a small handful of global capitalist elites. And all this death and destruction of the biosphere and of other human beings is done in service of that. And so that's the nature of the machine. And so I think it's really important to point out how these things are connected and that this is a global phenomenon. But bringing it down a little bit, I want to talk about Palestine actions sort of relationship to its growing like prisoner support network to, you know, prisoner movements and organizing within prisons. So can you talk about Palestine actions like sort of organically developed prisoner support network and, and what ongoing solidarity

looks like both inside and outside prison walls? I really do to believe that there was a scenario. And this is a scenario that the state had hoped for where after the terrorism charges against some of our members, there would be no more Palestine action. There would be no future actions. There would be no way to recruit. And that's sort of counterintuitively. The exact opposite has been been the case. Like, we're able to really continue

our campaign with dramatic and high-level operations against the Israeli weapons trade in the UK. And it's mainly because people know that even if they have to go to prison for what they've done, they will never stop being supported. This is enormously important to our longevity as an organization. People know that from the very beginning to the very beginning to the very, To the day that they become a member of Palestine action,

to the day that Palestine is free, we will be supporting every member as best we possibly can. There have been enormously moving moments. We've had cultural workers and rap stars performing concerts outside, like in the parking lots of prisons here in the UK. We've had sitting members of MP being compelled to act by overwhelming phone and letter writing campaigns, demanding that they visit constituents who are in prison. Never before have sitting MPs visited Palestine campaigners who are in prison.

And it's happening. and it's making a material impact because the state has, though they've had the opportunity to charge subsequent Palestinian actionists who have smashed up Israeli weapons factories with sledgehammers, as terrorists, they have declined to do so.

I really am proud of not just the families who are missing their loved ones, but the people, people who have made the Filton 18 and all of our people who have gone in and out of jails, the focus of their own personal activism. We wouldn't be able to have politicians visiting our prisoners if there wasn't a, if there wasn't grassroots demand for them to do so. We wouldn't have the UN chiming in on their detention if there wasn't grassroots momentum demanding that they do so.

The prisoner's support movement is, in a way, our most clear example of our effectiveness, because not only has the state resorted to sort of unprecedented misuses of the Terrorism Act legislation, but it's also generated unprecedented levels of resistance to it. 100%. And I really want to urge, well, I want to say that, again, it's so important to show solidarity and to have support. And the more people that are coming out, that are, you know, visiting, that are writing letters, that are showing the system that these people are not alone, that they're not isolated from movements and organizations and communities, the safer those political prisoners are. So if you're in an organization, I've had organizations on,

you know, Jewish Voices for Peace, various pro-Palestine organizations, various prisoner organizations. But if you're in any sort of organization whatsoever and you're looking for something to do, no matter where you are in the world, right, reaching out to like an organization like Palestine action, showing that you have solidarity with them, either donating to them or doing letter writing to their prisoners, showing up at their actions, These are ways in which disparate organizations can come together and strengthen one another. Because for every organization that joins up, that's a little bit more protection that these political prisoners have. It's a little more amplification that is brought to this issue.

And that's a little more letting the state know. These people are not alone. They're not easy pickings. They don't come without resistance. You can't just brutalize them or keep them in prison forever without having people make noise about it at the very least. and so I think that is so crucial and to know that they go after certain political prisoners as I said before but that all of us are on the chopping block eventually and imagine if you were in their shoes imagine if you did something for Palestine or in the case of like Mahmoud Khalil you were just standing up for your people you didn't even commit a crime but now you find yourself in prison in a cage what would you want would you want for the people on the outside who you've talked to and who you've been organized with and who you've met over the years to just be silent and move on to the next news cycle or would you want them to show up to make noise, to keep boasting about you, to write letters to you, to show up in the parking lot of the prison, and just let you know that you're not alone? So there's organizations out there's individuals out there looking for something to do, looking to get involved in a meaningful way.

Here's a beautiful and immediate way you can get involved. Reach out, write letters, show support, show up in prison parking lots, make noise, and let people know that we are not alone and that we have each other's backs. And that does more good than you can imagine. Go ahead. No, sorry. Thank you so much for saying that. I just want to augment that by saying, if you're a member of a organization that considers itself part of the Palestine movement writ large, make an organizational demand of your own organization to start a Palestinian action prisoner's campaign. It is truly shocking and disappointed to me that we've had such radio silence

from people like Jewish Voice for Peace, from people like the Palestine Solidary Committee about our prisoners. If it doesn't come from our own movement, where is the support going to come from? And if we don't take care of our own, who's going to take care of us when the repression comes for us, too.

Yeah. Exactly. Well, let's go ahead and move. And I'm going to ask this question, but I don't ask it because I think this is true. In fact, I deeply disagree with it, and I could launch my own argument against it. But I'm just interested in hearing how you would argue against it because it's a line that you do here. Unfortunately, it's not just from liberals, but even some on the so-called radical left launched these sorts of accusations. And I can take my turn refuting it as well.

done so publicly many times, but just kind of interested in your thoughts on this. What do you say to those who would argue that disruptive or confrontational tactics like this alienate potential allies or are an example of quote unquote adventurism? I mean, it's not adventureism if what we're doing works. And I really, really, I think the answer to your question needs to begin and end right there, right? We have forced the closure, the permanent closure of two Israeli weapons factories

here in the UK. We have caused millions of pounds of damage and disrupted the supply chain of Israeli weapons to Palestine. There is no question that direct action

is effective. We have forced Barclays to divest all of its Elbit stock. it's not adventurism if what we're doing is effective. And I also just would say to people that 15 years ago, people said that people weren't ready for the BDS movement. So don't tell me what people are ready for. You know what I mean?

I think we have seen the effectiveness of the movement, both in our results and in the state's willing, to repress us. They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't effective. It's not adventurism if it works. And I'll throw in my two cents. On the first point about this confrontational tactic, alienating potential allies, I would just say, shut the hell up.

They're doing a fucking genocide. Anybody willing to step up and to do anything to stop that and by real material disruption of the machinery that commits that genocide is doing more than anybody who's made uncomfortable by that. so that's much more of an easy liberal dismissive thing but as for the case of adventurism to add to your argument the problem with adventurism and why it's critiqued on the marxist left is if and when it brings unnecessary blowback to innocent communities right so if you're involved in like a ds a thing and you're at a protest with a bunch of community members then you bring a goddamn pipe bomb and you throw it and kill a cop and then the cop you know cracks down on the crowd and like brutalizes some like single mom who's just coming out and to be a part of a demo like that's adventureism that hurts people but this is not adventureism because this is a specific organization made up completely of a cadre who have been looking into the eyes

of the possible sacrifices have accepted that are getting nobody else in danger are not bringing any other innocent community community members into danger at all they separate themselves from other organizations and the community and they go and they take direct action and they accept personal consequences for it so the blowback comes on them and that does not hit any innocent person so this doesn't even meet the definition of adventurism and if you're launching accusations like that against organizations that are willing to do this direct action in such a principled way you either don't know what adventurism is or you're just operating in a way that actually helps the machinery of genocide to continue on and you're alienating not them from the movement you're

alienating yourself from the movement. It's a really bad faith accusation. I've seen it tossed around once or twice, and I just thought it was worth dismantling that idea just up front and explicitly. Totally. And I mean, to your point, right, we're not, we don't bring back, blowback onto the community. Instead, we empower and activate communities. The permanent shutdown of the Elbit factory in Oldham in the UK would not have been possible without community buy-in. We had these, once we started our rooftop occupations of the Oldham factory, thousands of community members would come out because we would let everyone know that not only

were these weapons being tested out on Palestinians, but they were being used on Kashmiris. And when the thousands and thousands of Kashmiris who live and work in Oldham got wind of our actions and got wind of our analysis that linked what was happening in Gaza to what's happening in Kashmir. They came out in droves and forced that factory to permanently shut down. Not only was this not a case of adventurism that causes harm to a community, but rather it was effective actions that activated the community and galvanize them into forcing the closure of this death factory. Yeah. And even on top of that, it's it's also very precise, right? Like, you could imagine

some like, I don't know, some organization, even like the weather underground who did like these bombing campaigns. And you're just like, you're just really crude instrument, you're bombing things, innocent people could get heard, blah, blah, blah. This is like specific people going in with a, with, with very like scalpel like tools and doing something very surgical that doesn't cause any harm to any innocent person and that literally just materially damages property such that it makes it very hard for these these factories to continue pumping out weapons that murder innocent people so so by every definition of adventurism this is not it and you made a great point as well of like you're not only not

bringing blowback on communities you're getting people involved you're waking people up people come out to support these political prisoners and that's the exact opposite of adventures and that's building solidarity and that is escalating a movement in protection of victims of genocide and doing everything you can within your power to stop that death machinery. So, yeah, I appreciate you taking time to address that. Let's go ahead and move forward here. We have one or two more questions as we wrap up this important conversation. Looking ahead, you've mentioned the number of political prisoners could double within a year.

What are the most urgent needs right now, legal, financial, and political to support those facing repression? And can you talk about your concern about the number of political prisoners rising? I mean, I think all U.K. activists and I think all people in the Palestine movement around the world should be concerned primarily with the state's application of counterterrorism in political cases. If terrorism association stands in the case against Palestine action, it will lower the threshold for what actions can fall under this abuse of power in the future. These, like, what happens in this case will definitely affect everybody who's committed to Palestine liberation, whether it's in the near term or the longer term. And like the, we have up to 100 people who are going to be on trial in the next, over the next 12 months. And every single one of these trials is an opportunity. to inch a little bit closer to permanently quitting the U.K.

About 15 years ago in the U.K., Raytheon, the evil weapons producer that's based, it's headquartered in the northeast of the U.S. near where I grew up, was forced to permanently shudder its weapons factory in the north of Ireland. This came after a very similar, inspirational, even, direct action campaign in which activists would routinely enter the factory and smash up whatever they could before being arrested. And what was even better about these campaigns in the north of Ireland against Raytheon is eventually juries stopped convicting the actinists. They just wouldn't people in the north of Ireland were politicized enough during the Iraqi war to know that they were not going to convict anyone accused of damaging the Raytheon factory. And eventually Raytheon got the message and said, well, if the juries in this city will not consider what these people are doing to us a crime, that we're just going to leave. And they did. And what a victory for not just the people in Ireland, but the people around the world.

Every time we beat Elbit in court, we get closer to the final victory of Elbert leaving the UK completely. And once that finally happens and it will definitely happen, think about the inspiration that groups around the world can draw and what our tactics and strategy and how it can be applied to other. their situation. I mean, I'm very eager once we kick Elbit out of the U.K. to try and shut down some of the migrant concentration camps that operate here in the U.K. And as ICE increases its kidnapping of our people off the streets in the U.S., I really think it's time to look at Palestine action, look at our strategy of targeting people complicit in the operation of these facilities and start targeting them with direct action. Who knows if it'll work, but it certainly will do more than just marching and petitioning against these places. We really have to start

applying these strategies, not just to weapons factories, but to creeping fascism, writ large. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the core math equation is this. As the state desperately turns up the dial on repression, we have to match that by turning up the dial on our resistance

to it. We have to, every time they attack one of us, our movement has to grow bigger. We have to come out and show support. We have to find new ways of resistance, new ways of attacking the death machine. And if they can crank up the dial on repression, and we don't meet that with cranking up

our dial of resistance, then that is how repression succeeds, right? It squashes, it terrifies, it beats everybody into submission, it destroys lives, and it makes everybody vulnerable and weaker going forward. And so this is a real time where the whole system is destabilized, where it is desperate, where it is getting weak, and it's not out of strength that they do these repressive mechanisms. It is out of weakness that they do these repressive mechanisms. And that's precisely the moment when we have to turn up the dial on our resistance to. it. And we have to show that we might not have all the money and all the power and all the weapons, but we have a lot of human beings willing to come together and fight back

against this disgusting criminal death machine that's destroying our planet and destroying human life. And I think Palestine Action is one of those organizations, especially operating out of the Imperial Corps that are on the front lines of that battle. So I tip my hat to all of you, and I urge everybody listening to do what you can to show solidarity, write letters. If you have disposable income, send some their way, and support them, and all of our political prisoners that, and they're going to continue, right? There's going to be more and more, and there already is. So we can't turn our backs on our own, especially in this really critical moment. So, Max, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you to Palestine Action. But before I let you go,

can you just let listeners know any last words you may have, any specific things you want to plug or promote or make sure people are aware of, and then just remind us one more time the most meaningful way that we can show solidarity with the filth in 18 and any future political prisoners. The moment right now calls for direct action. And every week, Palestine action offers a crash course in direct action theory and tactics for free for anyone who's interested. These crash courses can be applied to your own context. It's a type of thing that you can take as an individual or get your cadre group or your organization to all do one together. It'll be a wonderful opportunity for you guys to sit around together with members of Palestine Action who can brainstorm about your

own contacts and see what you can do to make a material difference in the war on Palestine. I really encourage people to follow us on social media, check out our brand new website and sign up for one of our trainings, write a letter to one of our prisoners. Wherever you are, you can engage with the work we are doing and make it your own work. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk with your audience. It's been such a pleasure. And I really want to let everyone know that we're up against, as you said, a death machine and anything we can do to stop it is what's required of us in this moment.

And I really think that we have an example here of people who can use their own skills, their own hands even, to make a material impact. And it's the lesson to be the lesson to be. derived from this is one that we can all apply to our lives. Thank you so much, Max, for coming on. And anytime you want to come back on, you have my email. Just let me know, and you have an open invite to come back on RevLeft anytime. Thank you so much.

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