Rev Left Radio - Proletarian Feminism and its Discontents

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Tai Lee joins Breht to discuss the recent split from AF3IRM, radical feminism, critique as a form of solidarity, the necessity of struggle within organizations, sexual harrassment and abuse in the labor movement, liberal opportunism, the targeting and intimidation of women who speak up, how to prevent abuse and harrassment within orgs, and more! Here is the letter that they discuss in the episode with a full breakdown of events: https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/our-split-from-af3irm-shedding-light-on-our-issues-to-encourage-our-growth-towards-a-real-76cd1bcae395 Check out more of Tai's work: https://linktr.ee/chairmantailee Check out more of Esperanza's work here: https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/ Contact the Interim Revolutionary Feminist Committee: [e-mail]

Hello everybody, welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. On today's episode, we have back on the show, Ty Lee, to have a very important discussion that is relevant to, I think everybody listening, anybody interested at all in left-wing organizing, interested in proletarian feminism, interested in how to weed out abusers within our organizations, etc. It's a very important and very timely topic. Many of you might know Ty from earlier episodes of RevLeft, but Ty, for those who don't know, can you just kind of introduce yourself and let people know who you are?

Yeah, hi, Brett, and hello to all the listeners of RevLeft. My name is Ty Lee. I am a communist and a feminist and an organizer and also an artist. And it's always such an honor to be on this platform. And Reveft was such a huge part of my own political development. So I'm excited to be back on and to talk about something that I think is really, really, really important and relevance for anyone who is in, you know, the struggle for a classless society. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you for those kind words. And the honor is all mine. It's absolutely a pleasure to talk to you every single time. I know today, I mean, every time you come on, we discuss very serious issues. But today is no exception to that. So let's just go ahead and get right into it. First and foremost, I mean, a lot of people, some people might know some of what's happening. I would assume that a lot of people listening probably have no clue.

So just to kind of set the table for the rest of this discussion, can you catch people up on the organizational events that have occurred recently that this conversation will use as a sort of jumping off point to discuss other important issues and whatnot? Just kind of catch us up on what has been happening. Yeah. So there was a split in an organization called Affirm. Um, a firm is a mass organization, a mass feminist organization that historically was an offshoot of that came out of the national democratic movement in the Philippines. So it has roots in the communist struggle, affirmed us. And essentially what had happened was there was a line struggle going on in the organization between, uh, the more revolutionary line. explicitly revolutionary line and the more reformist liberal line. And this had been going on for

months and months. And then it reached basically a full-blown antagonism that caused over half of the membership to split. This was not something that was taken lightly. It was something that was discussed and thought over rigorously for quite a while. And it became, the contradictions became too glaring to continue to try to just struggle, struggle interorganizational. So basically, the antagonism stemmed from holding a principled line against imperialism and connections to one of the most high-profile me-to events in the labor movement where Martine Manteca was allegedly

sexually harassing many, many, many women within the labor movement itself. And obviously, as feminists and as Marxists, we have to take both of those things very seriously because they sit at the center of everything that we are fighting against. So nobody wants to split up a massive organization for no reason. You know, it was coming from a place of needing to be very, very, very serious in our approach to what revolutionary feminism

actually is. And so with that being said, I think that this instance and this split can be universalized across all of our struggles and all of our organizations. And there's so much for all of us to learn from this because there's a general idea and I don't think that this idea is totally wrong that women need our own, women and gender oppressed people need our own organizations because of sexual misconduct.

I think that that is not a totally wrong idea and I don't think it's something that is totally wrongheaded or anything like that. But what's interesting here is that those instances of sexual misconduct can appear in organizations where there are no men present, right? And this actually proves how deeply rooted this patriarchal violences that even amongst, in seemingly safe spaces that are only women and only gender oppressed minorities, this issue and this contradiction is so, pervasive that it will still appear. And to me, this is just obviously in certain ways it's obvious, but also in certain ways it's, it's astounding. You know what I'm saying.

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Do you want to talk about, well, one question is, can you just clarify what Martine Menteca's relationship to affirm is? Right. So, Martin Manteca is the long-term partner of the national chair of a firm. And the national chair is basically the main leader of the organization. So this isn't just, you know, a core member. And even if it was, it would still be an issue, right? But it's compounded by the fact that this is the leader, you know, and I want to say here as well that you never want to blame women for what men do. And that is not the critique that's being made. The critique that's being made has to do with the fact that this man, who is notorious in the labor movement, has such close ties to the leadership of a militant feminist organization, and he was brought around women who are members of the organization. And a big part of what made a firm so powerful was that the membership was made up of women who are survivors of sexual abuse. So these are women that have already experienced a lot of sexual trauma.

And most women have, right? Most women, you know, I can say with confidence that most of the women that you and I know have had to deal with at least sexual harassment at the very least. Without a doubt, yes. But when you take affirm into account, these are women who are survivors of some of the most horrendous sexual violence that you could ever imagine. So to bring somebody who has these allegations against them around membership is a massively unsafe and irresponsible thing to do. So, you know, not only is he tied in through. leadership, but was also literally physically brought around members of this organization. And there's a, there's been a lot of public reporting on Martin Manteca and on his Me Too scandal. And

a lot of this was done through the publication payday report, which is an amazing pro-labor leftist outlet and we can link to the original reporting that was done and I believe it came out in 2016 so he was

he was outed publicly at the same time as the massive Me Too uprising was happening you know this was all a part of that moment in terms of a mass movement now of course this was buried

because it was happening inside the labor movement. So it was distinctly proletarian. And so, you know, it wasn't as high profile and scandalous as the Harvey Weinstein stuff because that was dealing with bourgeois women and with the bourgeois class. So unfortunately, a lot of people don't know about this. But I think that now is the best time to learn about it and to learn about the bravery of all these people, these working class people who came forward in search of justice, you know, and we should we should revitalize me too, you know, in a proletarian register.

And I think that that's something that can come out of this. Yeah, and we'll talk a bit more about this important split that's happened and the new organizations that's spun off of it. But before we do, now that people have some basic context of, you know, basically what's caused the split, the ongoing turmoil that it is still causing. Can you just talk a little bit about what we want to accomplish here today with this episode? because, you know, there may be some people listening that just, this is the first they're hearing of any of this. I'm not quite sure how to orient themselves to this conversation and the point of it. So can you just kind of talk about what we want to accomplish here today and then we'll get more into the detail? Yeah. So I think we should start out by saying that particularly when women, and especially if you are a racialized women and a working class woman, if you come forward with feminist grievances, if you come forward and you speak about sexual misconduct, you speak about sexual abuse, if you speak about all those things, the first thing that you're told is that you are disruptive and you are divisive for speaking about those things.

And I'm sure that any woman and any gender oppressed person who is listening to this has heard this before, you know, you come out with the grievance of, hey, I've been mistreated by man, I have been raped, I have been assaulted, I have been X, Y, and Z. And the first thing that you're going to be told is, one, that you're a liar, and two, that your criticisms are being made in bad faith to try to disrupt and wreck whatever organization that you are in. This is just common. And so, I want to start this off by saying that I believe that feminist critique is absolutely essential. And not only is it essential for the health of our movements and for revolution period, but also that feminist dissent and feminist critique is a form of true

solidarity. And so in the process of all of these critiques being made in the split and X, Y, and Z, we have constantly heard that we are the problem. for saying something. And so, you know, I want everyone and especially the women that are listening to this to know that you are never the problem for speaking about these things. You are the future. You know, anyone who has the courage to speak out about this stuff is the future of revolution, not the wrecker and not the problem.

So before we even get into it, I want to start with that. And with that being said, I offer these criticisms as, uh, you know, not only a form of solidarity to people that are listening now, but also as a document, a recorded document for the future generations of organizers and militants to come. You know, women have always been here speaking out against this stuff, and we have been speaking out against it through history, and this is just another instance of that kind of bravery. And, you know, anyone that has, that is enduring any of this kind of shit,

my my DMs are open my email is open please reach out to me and I would love to build build something based off of those things also too I don't want to get into any kind of pettiness of like infighting amongst interpersonal you know interpersonal dramas I want to take what has happened here and what we have learned from this split and offer it as a universal critique for the entire revolutionary movement. And again, you know, in this way, these criticisms are not a wall

that is being built to separate us off, but rather, you know, the building blocks for a path forward so that we can actually have a strong revolutionary movement that has solidarity amongst many, and women and that isn't going to continue to succumb to these things that are fatal, truly. You know, I think that there's been a, there was an amazing piece of writing that was written maybe 10 years ago called misogynists make great informants. And it talks about the history of leftist organizing, particularly in the United States, and that the biggest issue that has destroyed our organizations from the

inside out is misogyny. It is systemic sexism. And that continues till this moment right now. And it also happens inside feminist organizations. So, you know, that's kind of the foundation of why I think that this conversation is important to be having. Right. So even though this is a specific issue with a specific organization and a specific split, the lessons and the ideas that are going to be discussed about it are universalizable. They're very common. They're issues that plague organizations in general, left-wing organizations in particular and have for a very, very long time and how to deal with these things in a way that is conducive and healthy to the furthering of this class struggle and the feminist struggle. I mean, this is essential stuff, so it can't just be dismissed. So while, again,

we're talking about a specific case, we're also talking about it in the context of realizing that much of this is common and thus universalizable. But one more thing I did want to touch on before we move forward is in the face of these allegations and in the face of this split, comrades of ours have been attacked for speaking out and taking a firm stand on this front. Can you talk a little bit about who's being attacked and maybe how people can help them if they so desire? Yeah.

So, you know, I'm coming here as my own, my own entity. coming to talk about this stuff, but I'm sure that anyone who is involved in any kind of proletarian feminist circles online has seen the public statement that was made by Esperanza Fonseca about a potential, a cease and desist was sent to her from Martin Menteca's lawyers and from the union's representatives, the union's lawyers. So right now Esperanza has has a crowd fund going for legal

legal fees that she might be raking up. So if anyone is interested in donating to her that all of that information is on her

Instagram which is at proletarian feminist. She's no longer on Twitter but she has a huge presence on IG so there's more

information for that there that people can find. Perfect. Yeah. And, you know, again, Rev Love listeners will have know who Esperanza is. She's been on a few times. I think when this episode comes out, the episode right before, it will be an episode with me and Esperanza talking about like just health and fitness and trying to give people basic tips and kind of inspire people on the left to just live more healthy, et cetera. So that episode will be followed by this one. And that was not necessarily planned. We had planned that episode far in advance. And then everything happened and we knew we had to get on to come and talk about this issue, but, you know, Esperanza is a genuine friend and a truly solid comrade, and it makes me sick to see what she's going through and to see what happens when people with resources leverage those resources allegedly to shut down critiques of certain people and to use litigation as the tool of intimidation and silencing in the midst

of stuff like this. So if anybody is so inclined, if they value what Esperanza does, definitely go to at proletarian feminist on Instagram and on her post and her stories. It'll be very clear how you can pitch in and try to help out because it's a very scary thing to be singled out and have these legal documents being sent to you, threatening lawsuits and litigation and, you know, who knows how much money you're going to have to spend to defend yourself. it's a very scary thing and it isolates people from their communities and their organizations makes them feel like they are very much alone in this fight. So insofar as we can kind of provide community and support and financial aid to a comrade industry as fighting the good fight.

And I think it's incredibly important. So if anybody out there is so inclined and has the disposable income to do so, absolutely do that. And I will link to it in the show notes to make it even easier for people. But with that said, let's go ahead and move forward a little bit because one of the issues here, kind of zooming out and talking about bigger issues that are relevant here, is the, you know, longstanding sort of divisions between forms of radical feminism and forms of proletarian feminism. So can you kind of talk about the necessity of class struggle for feminism and the limitations of a radical feminism, which is not overly communist and focused on class struggle? Right. So I want to start off here by saying that

I think that what we consider the second wave, you know, there's obviously a lot of discussions we can have about whether thinking in waves of feminism is useful at all, but for this conversation, you know, when we think of the second wave, which was kind of the birth of radical feminism, I think that so much of what was discovered there is absolutely essential. I think it was one of the most important political movements of the 20th century. And so when we're leveraging these critiques, I don't, I think we should stay away from falling into a kind of vulgar anti-feminism, which you can come across from certain chauvinist, male chauvinist tendencies amongst leftists. Definitely. But so, you know, we can look at radical feminism, we can look at the second. way we can look at the women's liberation movements and we can take what was discovered there and definitely integrate a lot of that into our own practice and we absolutely should because what was found about the personal and the political and the gendered division of

labor and the specific violence that women face because we are women and you know all of these things are essential and so fruitful and I encourage Marxists to engage with that literature and study what those women discovered because there's so much good stuff there. But with that being said, radical feminism tends to mystify the contradictions that exist between women. So in its radical critique of the antagonisms between men and women, it is a radical critique, it mystified the fact that amongst women there's all of these different contradictions, right? You have racial contradictions between women and you also have class contradictions between women. And we cannot afford to ignore. And I think that also too, I want to say that a lot of the, you know, a lot of the white

feminism has been critiqued at length from radical feminism as it should. and those critiques are absolutely essential for anyone who is taking seriously the question of women's liberation at all. And I also think that we need to have an even sharper critique of class collaborationism in terms of the Marxist

definition of economic class. Because I think that when that contradiction is mystified, you go down all of these routes of opportunities, And it leads to a thoroughly liberalized version of feminism that has you buddying up with the state, that has you buddying up with the police, that has you thinking that the carcarsal state is going to do much of anything to free women, right? Because, you know, bourgeois women have less issues with the police. Why is that? Because the police protect their class interests, right? So when you have, when you have this kind of. of leaking in of this bourgeois tendency within feminism, then all of the sudden you have some really dangerous shit that can go on

where bourgeois women can take the lead and kind of steer us into a direction that makes us class collaborationists and sells out the vast majority of the most destitute colonized and oppressed women on the planet. So these contradictions are fucking serious, And this isn't necessarily news to a lot of people, but the reason that I bring it up here in this context is I consider a firm to be kind of the end of the radical feminist sequence because within a firm, you have an organization that is all women of color. The terminology that they would use is transnational women of color. So they're trying to deal with the kind of white feminism that was latent in a lot of radical feminism, and they tried to weed that out, but they did not weed out the class collaborationist aspect. And a lot of the contradictions that we came up against in our split had very much to do with this, the leaking in of bourgeois feminism into this space. And that, those concessions that were made actually put. put people into situations that were unsafe, you know, so that, if feminism is to be

actually feminism, and what I mean by that is if feminism is going to be a revolutionary tool that's going to liberate people, it must put, you know, the Marxist communist class struggle at the center of it. And this does not mean that we ditch certain radical feminists understandings of how pervasive patriarchy is because in a lot of sense a lot of senses they were correct that bourgeois women are still subject to patriarchal violence right i mean look at look at most of the me too movement uh the high profile cases what was revealed to us is that even the richest women are still being raped in their workplace i mean that's insane so if you if you can see that about these very rich women imagine how much worse it gets if you have

less access to resources, right? So, you know, we don't have to throw out the understanding of the pervasiveness of patriarchy, but what we do have to do is understand that patriarchy upholds imperialism and it upholds capitalism and that the only way to fully get rid of patriarchy is through a feminism that comes from proletarian women. And I'm laying this out in very obvious terms right now, but the kind of bourgeois tendencies can sneak in. They aren't necessarily obvious all the time. And you can fall into class collaborationism pretty easily. And I'll be the first person to admit that maybe for some of my younger years in organizing, I was a little bit more idealist in this way where I thought

that maybe in certain respects we could make those kinds of class collaborationist concessions. You know, maybe there were certain times when that was acceptable. And now coming out on the other side of this, I think that we have to be so disciplined and principled about that, about that not being the case. We cannot give an inch on that front because bourgeois women and bourgeois liberalism, they are going to sell out the most destitute women in the most vile, anti-feminist ways that you can imagine.

it is cruel and it is damaging to the women on an individual level and also to our movement for liberation and I really just can't stress this enough and I want any feminists who are listening to this who are maybe a little softer on this line to just trust me when I say that I am not coming at this from anti-feminism I'm critiquing this stuff from inside the feminist movement from a from a deep profound commitment to feminism that's why I'm saying this because I think that there is a kind of trauma response and a protectionism that comes from the very real historical reality that women's struggle has constantly been subordinated to all of this other shit and women's in the very serious the serious and pervasive problem of you know patriarchal violence

has been totally, you know, pushed to the side. And so I'm sympathetic to women who hear these critiques and think, oh, well, here's just another anti-feminist saying that, you know, Whitman should shut the fuck up or whatever. That's not what I'm doing at all. And I want to just make that so clear that these critiques are coming from inside feminism and coming from a place of understanding the necessity of feminism. That was such a long rant there, but I hope I got my point across.

No, you absolutely got it across, and it was incredibly well said, and I think anybody that knows you absolutely knows that this is not coming from anything other than a robustly and principled feminist position. It does make me think, you know, this sort of contradiction between forms of radical feminism and a more class-based proletarian feminism, which really centers the class struggle. it makes me think that of Angles's origin of the family private property in the state, which we're covering on Red Menace. So by the time this episode comes out, probably a week or so around the time this episode comes out will come out our Red Menace episode covering that text and why it's important and revel it into this conversation is because Engels using deep anthropological science traces the history of patriarchy and shows that, you know, patriarchy is not human nature. Patriarchy is not instantiated in all social forms of organization among human beings, but patriarchy historically arose during the rise of class society and the attendant rise of private property. And he lays this out with obviously deep historical materialist analysis, showing how patriarchy existed during slave societies, feudal societies, and capitalist societies did not exist in primitive communist societies. And therefore, the takeaway is, If we can do a proletarian revolution to change the underlying material conditions to one in which the means of production are owned collectively and is egalitarian, that you can wipe out over time, of course, and through struggle, the underlying material basis out of which patriarchy emerges and solidifies itself. And one of the takeaways from that text and why it's an important work in proletarian feminist and Marxist feminist theory is that it makes very clear that proletarian feminism is required. that proletarian feminism must center class struggle as a way to change the material basis of reality that, you know, patriarchy is rooted in, but also that class struggle must center the liberation of women. And so it's both, it's coming from both sides of that, of that equation showing the essential nature that if women want to be free from patriarchy, they have to attack class society. And if communists and people that are interested in socialism and communism want to achieve their goals, they need to center women's liberation.

And I think that's something that you and I totally agree on, and that's something that you're basically echoing. Yes, totally. And some of my favorite texts from the radical feminist canon engaged with Engels' work critically and in a lot of ways used the Marxist dialectical and historical materialists, you know, the science of dialectical and historical materialism to build off of those critiques that Engels was making. And you have thinkers like Monique Whittig, who is going to also understand the way that heterosexuality is a part of this kind of overarching naturalization of women's oppression. And you have all of these fascinating criticisms that are so important that are building off of that exact idea, that patriarchy isn't human nature. And I think this just came out the other day. Sikai, and I have my problems with them, I don't think he's perfect. But he posts, someone was posting a bunch of his writing on Twitter, and I was just reading snippets of it, but he makes this amazing point that, like, in order to realize the things

that we're talking about right now, similarly to certain strands of black separatism and certain strands of, you know, all these different types of separatisms, there hadn't to be a moment of separatism for the women's movement so that all of these things that we are talking about could be approached with the total seriousness that they needed to be approached with and thoroughly investigated on their own grounds and that needed to have it and that was progressive and I back that shit so hard and now I think that it's our task to take all of these lessons that were learned and reintegrate them into this robust class struggle that that understands the intricacies of heterosexuality, that understands trans liberation,

that understands, you know, how do we really denaturalized gender? And it's building off of Marxist methodology. And honestly, this stuff should excite us. Unfortunately, it's so difficult that a lot of people can get scared and don't want to approach it with the courage that it needs to be approached with. But, you know, I can hear the excitement in your voice when you talk about angles and origin of the family. And this stuff is exciting. It's riveting. It makes our struggle more robust, more radical. You know, we're trying to change, abolish the entire present order of things. This is a tall order. But that's exciting. You know, know, and so yeah, you know, from Engels to

Monique Whittig to certain strands of what Christine Delphi was trying to say, through Audrey Lord, you know, all of these incredible thinkers have touched on this stuff. And we have to take all those things seriously and integrate them into the communist line. You know, we cannot abandon class struggle. And yeah, I'm now just going on a rant, but you know me. I'm so excited about talking about that kind of stuff because I think it's just so important. Yeah, no, absolutely. And of course, you know, Rosa Luxembourg, Collentai, they all come to mind.

Claudia Jones, it goes down the list as far as women within the Marxist tradition, you know, I mean, and this takes different forms depending on the thinker, but yeah, I mean, within Marxism, the criticism is built in, the self-criticism is built in, just like Franz Fanon took Marxism and, you know, extended it to make sense of the colonial situation. situation, which Marx and Angles didn't necessarily do as well as they could have because of their biases and limitations. The same thing happens in the proletarian feminist sort of, you know, tradition as well, where Angles inaugurates a certain way of looking at history through a text like this, but then feminists within the Marxist tradition, then wrestle with, critique, develop,

taking new directions, the basics of what was offered by Anglos. And that's the beautiful thing about, I think, the Marxist methodology in general is that we make it up, we center it, as a part of our tradition, that it's an open-ended, experimental and constantly updated science of revolution that is going to require from two white guys in Europe is going to require some development from women and from people in the colonial situations and in the global south, etc. That's the beauty of the equation. Exactly. And you have, you bring up Phenon. I love Phenon. And Wittig actually makes a lot of similar points to him. And then you can kind of stemming from the Marxist tradition, then you can think of, oh, here are our, you know, here are our thinkers that

are coming from the colonized world. And then you can blend that critique with what is going on with, you know, radical lesbian criticisms of patriarchal heterosexual heterosexual sexuality. And, you know, there's so much, it's just such a robust tradition that we need to cover all of those bases, you know. That's so, so important. Yeah, it's the dialectic. And I think you even start to see the development of, you know, trans theorizing within the Marxist tradition, trans Marxism, these attempts to apply historical and dialectical materialism to, you know, the issue of trans equality and trans rights. And that's a beautiful, exciting development that needs to be pursued and allowed to, you know, open up and develop at its own pace. But let's go ahead and get back to kind of

the focus of this episode. And you did mention a lot of this. So you can, you can take this in whatever direction you can. And you can be brief if you want to or you can go deep if you want to. And, of course, as you said earlier, we'll link to the letter that kind of announced the split and all of the details. So those that really want to get into it and get the full breakdown can absolutely do it in the words of the people involved. But with that in mind, can you kind of just discuss the split from a firm a little bit more, the details, perhaps, of the publicly reported allegations and this kind of how all of this relates to what you've been saying this whole conversation which is you know the importance of proletarian feminist struggle right

so I would encourage people to read our entire document that we collaboratively wrote um that touches on um the real ins and outs of the split it gets into the way that mothers are treated in the movement um the way that trans women are treated in the movement that there's so many just instances of injustice there but also big learning lessons that I think anyone can learn from and so definitely I encourage everyone to read that document. It's also well written and worth your time. One thing I want to touch on in the intricacies here is the allegations against. against Martin Menteca.

Anyone who's in the labor movement has heard of this person's name. When I came forward with the Affirm letter and posted it publicly, I had six or seven women that day that it came out. Six or seven women approach me in my DMs,

send me emails and text messages about their own experiences with this person. He is still very much involved in the labor movement. This is not a thing of the past. He is in the labor movement now. So this is relevant. So in 2016, there's a another document that we will link to.

It's called Me Too, SEIU. And it's a monster expose that talks about one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine different organizers in the labor movement who have. a lot of sexual harassment allegations against them. One of them is Martin Menteca. And I'm reading straight from this document now, over 60 staffers signed a petition requesting the SEIU look into sexual harassment allegations against Manteca. One staffer described Manteca as an absolute sociopath. If he was on the floor of your office, you hid at your desk. You didn't want to see him. It was such a terror. He was toxic. Absolutely. toxic. I mean, that's the beginning of this document. It goes on to say that there were 17

written testimonies against Manteca, and they were not only just sexual harassment in the workplace, but he was also physically confrontational. There was a lawsuit filed against him that accuses him of harassing and discriminating against an employee with a disability. I mean, This stuff is monstrous, and this is happening inside the labor movement. So something that has revealed itself in this split, and the reason why this split is so relevant, is it shows the kind of the way that the struggles that proletarian women endure are at the center of everything that we do. On the first episode I did with Rev Left, I critiqued Me Too for being too focused on bourgeois women. I remember we touched on that. And that's not to say that I wasn't always a champion of Me Too.

Of course I was a champion of Me Too. I thought that it was a mass moment of feminist consciousness raising. I think it was one of the most important moments of my entire life. but even I who was at that time I was organizing with you know malice and with communists

and those shockwaves were not necessarily felt in the organizing that I was doing and that's not because women weren't being abused on the left right it's just that the movement

didn't go radical it was not radical enough and it didn't touch the women at the bottom. And so, you know, to dig up this document and to know that brave women did speak out against this stuff and they faced repercussions for their actions in their bravery and speaking out against these injustices. And nobody listened because you have to understand that the women that were coming forward with these allegations are not rich women.

These are not women with, you know, unlimited access to resources. These are women at the bottom. And if Me Too is going to do what it needs to do, if Me Too wants to speak in a revolutionary register, the first thing that we should get our hands on and the first thing that we should study and understand is something like the allegations against Martin Mendeca. Um, I, I really believe that this is so important. And, you know, the labor movement has to answer to this. Um, and this isn't, again, this isn't an attack similarly to the point that I was making about how my critiques of feminism are coming from inside feminism. My critiques of the labor movement, harboring abusers, and this is not the first time in history, right? You know, we know that this is a historical reality that, that we have had to come up with, come up with,

gets again and again and again. So when I'm coming at the labor movement and critiquing the labor movement for shuffling this shit to the side, it's not from outside, it's from inside the proletarian struggle, you know, that if we really care, if we really, really care about, you know, liberating the working class, if we really care about what we say we care about, we cannot continue to brush shit like this under the rug. I mean, 17 written testimonies. 60 saffers signed a petition requesting the SEIU to look into sexual harassment allegations against this guy. I mean, it's astounding. It's as bad as anything that you would read about any high-profile Me Too person. You know what I'm saying?

Because these women are destitute, because the women that he was allegedly harassing are women with nothing. They were brushed to the side. And that's a failure of both the labor movement, and that's a failure of feminists as well. Even proletarian feminists, even anti-imperialist

feminists like the feminist in a firm who knew that this shit was going on. Everyone failed here. You know, no one's hands are clean. Everyone failed in both the labor movement and the wider women's liberation movement. And that, a light needs

to be shined on that. And we need to face that with courage and understand that if we don't correct errors like this, it will be to the detriment of the entire communist project. It's that serious. And, you know, I'm speaking so passionately because I want people to understand the gravity of something like this. And that the fact that six different women who I don't even know, came forward and we're like, hey, I can, you know, I have my own stories of dealing with this person. That's huge. I mean, it's, uh, I'm, I'm at a loss for words, honestly. Yeah. Well, I would say that, you know, far from, you know, operating outside of the labor movement trying to weaken it, this is an essential aspect. And I think what you're getting at

of strengthening it, because whether it's the labor movement, whether it's a feminist organization, whether it's a communist and socialist organization, or any other form of organization, it takes place within capitalism and it takes place within a patriarchal system that will be reflected at times within those movements. And to be quiet about it or to sweep it under the rug and you're telling yourself, I'm sweeping it under the rug for the betterment of the movement. You're actually weakening the movement. You're making it more hostile to the very people that we need on our side.

and we need fully engaged and to be fully engaged, you need to feel as if you're among comrades who have your best interests at heart, not among people who are trying to hide whatever the negative behavioral actions may be. That's what actually weakens these movements is ignoring these problems, not tackling them, refusing to speak up, to step up, and to say this is wrong. And sometimes a split is required. Sometimes the contradictions are antagonistic. The split needs to happen to make a line very clear, and in this case, or a situation like this, to draw a very firm line between, you know, what we stand for and what is being allowed over here. And so far from weakening these movements, I think actions like this and developments like this, are

consciously and in practice actually have the effect of over the long term strengthening these movements. Yes, absolutely. I totally agree. You know, this is now, it's said so much, but, you know, dare to struggle, do not be afraid. Like, if the, that handling these things head on is not a, not a, not a, it's not indicative of a weakness on our part. It's indicative of our progression. And it shows that, uh, we are more conscious and we are more, we are seeing these contradictions for what they are and these antagonisms for what they are. And, um, you know, in the, in the case of an organization like a firm, um, there was such, a fear around dealing with these kinds of antagonisms in that literally ate the organization

alive from the inside out. The fear of struggle, the fear of rocking the boat, it literally it's like a cancer that will eat away at something, you know, and being able to approach those things head on is so important. And it's out of love for our movement. not out of, you know, any kind of desire to just bindlessly destroy shit. You know, it's because we want to build something. But another great example of this and something that I really want to touch on here is that a firm out of its own fear of dealing with its own shit, it found itself in positions where it was working with people like Megan Murphy. and this was stuff that was hidden from certain members.

It was, you know. Who is that? Just so people that don't know. Sorry, my apologies. Macon Murphy is a prominent trans-exclusionary radical feminist. And they were working with her and allegedly, you know, there was disagreement about, you know, her trans-exclusionary line. But when this was something that wanted to be struggled not only with people in the, in terms of membership, but also people on the outside that were like, hey, what the hell?

You know, this woman is trans misogynistic. She's antagonistic to trans people. And now I would argue that she's gotten so extreme that she's a trans eliminationist. I mean, it's bad. And because the firm was so scared of dealing with its own contradictions and dealing with its own mistakes, it just refused to look that in the eye. And now you're at a point in history where trans people are. being so viciously the rick has become exterminationist

because of mysterious with its unto death on the very real issue of you know trans liberation and this is a monstrosity you know given our moment in history and that as revolutionaries it's our responsibility to rise to the occasion of our time and do what needs to be done

you know that fear of struggle and that fear of admitting that, hey, there was wrongdoing here and we're going to correct that error, you know, them not being able to do that led them to, you know, a position that is on the side of the enemy. And this is, you know, that's horrific. And so, you know, I bring up this example because I want everyone to know that it is absolutely essential and important for us to deal with, deal with these antagonisms with courage and with one another and strumble them out. Because if not, you know, you will fall down a path of revisionism, really, and of liberal opportunism that, and it's easy to just say those words, but those words end up with real life ramifications that affect the lives of real life people. And so, you know, we have to be so courageous in our approach to dealing with these antagonisms. Yeah.

I think that's well said. And, you know, affirm is not unique. And that's the point I think that you're making here, too. You know, the specifics of the situation is what we're going to be focusing on and have been focusing on this conversation. But it's not unique. And also the inability to have internal critique and to, you know, foster an organization, intra-organization communities that are able to voice critique open. and in good faith and have those critiques met with open ears, that's something that even if it's not sexual harassment, it could be a million other issues. I just personally seen

hit sync organizations, brutally weaken them to the point of utter impotence, because a lot of it is just like, whether it's individuals being conflict diverse or certain, you know, fairy tales that we tell ourselves about the organization we're in. I mean, these things get through, they weaken the entire organization. And because nobody wants to stand up and make an awkward sometimes, you know, speaking up or saying something or calling somebody out or whatever, that can be a problem. It can also be a problem when non-antagonistic contradictions are fought as if they're antagonistic, right? We've seen organizations also get destroyed by that other error, but as the Buddha would say, it's the middle path. You don't want to commit either error, you know? Right. Exactly right. And, you know, this is also, too, where a strong leadership is so important and making sure our organizations practice democratic centralism is so important so that we have a healthy a healthy space where we can struggle these things out in a way that isn't anti-agonistic you know that isn't always going to just be destroying ourselves from the inside out right like but that also is tied into leadership and the organizational structure and and making sure that you know, whatever issues are being dealt with can be dealt with in a way that is, is fruitful and healthy within the organization itself. And also that is fruitful and healthy in

our dealings with the masses. You know, a big problem with a firm is that a firm refused to be held accountable to the masses of people. And this comes from a kind of protectionist line that you see in radical feminism. That again, I don't think is totally unfounded. I think that It comes from the very real problem that women aren't taken seriously and that we're considered unreliable narrators of our own life and therefore unreliable leaders of our own movements. You know, and that is a real issue. And I'm not saying that it's not. But when you go so far into that place, you can become very protectionist and you're so concerned

about protecting all of your critiques because you're scared that you're not taken seriously to such a degree that you then become not accountable to the masses of people who are expecting you to be leaders. And that's very tricky because it's like, yeah, as women, especially, we have to be so strong because constantly we are told that we are not qualified to liberate ourselves, right? But that doesn't mean that we're not accountable to the masses. Of course not. we must be and I think that that was also a really big issue with the firm and it led to a lot of really chauvinistic attitudes and they're dealing with people people particularly women and trans people who are not in the organization itself and so that's something that especially

you know to women that are listening you know that's something to be very conscientious of it's because I think it's something that sticks to women in particular because of our particular oppression as well. Yeah. Yeah, well said, you know, leaders and organizations that can successfully build within themselves the capacity to allow for self-criticism and to adjust based on proper criticism and be able to be able to parse out what is good, meaningful, important criticism from what is just hyper-individualistic, actually record sort of stuff. Like, the organizations that can do that successfully are the ones. that level up and can continue to struggle that are the healthiest and are the most effective.

And so I think that's incredibly important to keep in mind when we're discussing this. But we are kind of coming to the end of our time today. I just want to give you one more question, and then we'll go into last words and appointing listeners in certain directions. But the split has occurred. I'm under the impression that the organization is still developing. It's not a formal organization yet. It's called right now the interim revolutionary feminist committee. Can you maybe touch on that?

And then also just give us your thoughts on where proletarian feminist and their movements, proletarian feminist movements, go from here. Yeah. So we are in, you know, we are trying to figure out our, you know, organizational identity and hold our first Congress and get our, you know, all of our ducks in a row. and obviously there is there has been all of this upheaval with specifically with Martin Menteca and X, Y, and Z and so there's a lot

going on on our end, but we are we're lifers, we are totally committed to the struggle, we are getting ourselves to get in there and we are building a new organization and as more information can be shared with the public about

that, we will continue to share and put it forward and we are very excited about our new work and and building a need of organization and a lot of us that are a part of building this new organization are you know younger women younger people of oppressed genders and we have so much vitality and we are you know we have so much to offer in terms of what we've learned not only through this split but through all of the different organizing that we've done. So we are excited that something new is going to come of this that we think is fruitful and worthwhile. And there's a lot of badass organizers who, you know, we're excited. And, you know, we're still, we're cooking. We're cooking over here. But if anyone

wants to reach out and wants to be involved, we do have an email where we are, you know, taking inquiries, et cetera, and we will link to that email in the show notes as well. And with that being said, in terms of proletarian revolutionary feminism, I think that one, you know, we should be unafraid to call ourselves feminists. I think it's the honor of a life. time to say that I'm a feminist. I think that all women should take this on. It is the most rewarding thing to be. And also, too, similarly to when I think about how innovative and radical the Black Panther Party were and the young lords were and how inventive those organizations were, I think that proletarian revolutionary feminists,

have the capacity to be just as inventive and just as radical in our critique and just as in experimental and inventive in our organizational structures you know we have the capacity to do that and so even though this split and everything that I've just talked about was maybe not the most lighthearted shit or or the most it doesn't necessarily fill one with warm and fuzzy feelings or whatever It also just shows that it's my reading of this, that when these kind of antagonisms appear, it's because we are, our consciousness is advancing. And so, you know, struggle, do not be afraid. Take on these struggles. It is right to rebel against reactionaries. And reactionaries also manifest themselves in the form of sex pests in our spaces and sex pests in our movements. and it's up to proletarian revolutionary feminists to struggle against that and know that you have a bunch of women who are fighting this fight alongside you

and we're not going anywhere. Amen, powerfully said, my heart goes out to all of you wish this new organization the absolute best and again we'll link to the email. If anybody wants to reach out to the organization, we'll link to the letter for people that want to find all the details of what's actually going on. And we will highly encourage you once again to go over to Esperanza's Instagram at Proletarian Feminist and donate to the legal fund that she has created to try to fight back against this. What amounts to a slap suit, in my opinion, as just an attempt to silence and to quiet down criticisms. And, you know, people need help.

So step up and help if you can. I think, you know, if you listen to the earlier episodes with Esperanza, especially the first one we did, Her experiences in the sex trade industry, she has been through so fucking much. And once again, because of her bravery and her courage and her willingness to organize and actually struggle and practice, not just in words, she's once again, you know, having to deal with shit that she shouldn't have to fucking deal with. So anybody out there that can help, please do. And Ty, thank you so much.

Every time you come on, it's an absolute honor and a pleasure. You're doing really important work. You speak with genuine passion and knowledge that is inspirational, and you always have a place here at Revelaf to come back anytime, my friend. Thank you, Brett. And I really enjoyed that conversation, as usual, as much as certain parts of it were sucked. You know, I think ultimately it was fruitful, and I hope everyone gets something out of it. Absolutely. Well, love and solidarity, keep up the fight, and Rebel F listeners will be back soon with another episode. Thank you so much.