Rev Left Radio - Reflections on Afghanistan: History, Culture, & the Struggle for Self Determination

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Mina Sharif and Shamayel Shalizi join Breht to discuss and reflect on Afghan culture, history, political struggles, the diaspora, common misconceptions, the Afghanistan War and withdraw, and much more!  Decolonial therapy parts 1- 4:  https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3OTAxNjc1NzM2ODk4Njc5?story_media_id=2560750183107113600&utm_medium=copy_link  https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3OTAxNjc1NzM2ODk4Njc5?story_media_id=2560750183107113600&utm_medium=copy_link https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3ODU2ODM1Mjk1NTMyODM5?story_media_id=2571540248469085864&utm_medium=copy_link https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3OTA0Mzc4OTI5MDg5OTA5?story_media_id=2636629777432125413&utm_medium=copy_link   Diaspora Passing links: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CU-Yjl5jX4m/?utm_medium=copy_link https://www.instagram.com/tv/CUxh7yZjnny/?utm_medium=copy_link https://www.instagram.com/tv/CUN1I7HDeYd/?utm_medium=copy_link Their 2 current fundraisers:  https://chuffed.org/project/durkhanum https://aseel.xyz/us/fundraiser-afghans-kunar-ghazni.html Outro Music: "I Am" by AK13 ft. Saher ----- Support Rev Left Radio: https://www.patreon.com/RevLeftRadio or make a one time donation: PayPal.me/revleft LEARN MORE ABOUT REV LEFT RADIO: www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev. Left Radio. On today's episode, I have Mina Sharif and Shamayal Shalizi on to talk about Afghanistan, their lived experiences inside the country, its culture, its political history, the U.S. invasion and withdrawal, etc. I, you know, I wanted to do a flyover first approach to this topic before diving deeper. So I threw some big questions in their direction. And unfortunately, because of that, we couldn't dive down into the nitty gritty details of, you know, let's say the Soviet Union era in Afghanistan, for example, or the left-wing political movements that have, you know, marked the history of Afghanistan.

And so I think in the future in the next few months, I would love to have. one or both of them back on to dive deeper into those particular topics. But this is a really, I think, important and interesting perspective on Afghanistan from actual women who were part of the diaspora and then went back and lived in Afghanistan and have some really unique experiences and insights because of that. So I couldn't have asked for better guests for this episode, and I really hope people enjoy it. I know Americans do not know nearly as much about Afghanistan. Afghanistan as they should, and hopefully this is, you know, one step in correcting that,

not just for Americans, but for people outside of Afghanistan all over the world. So I love this episode, love the guests, I'm sure you will too. And as always, if you like what we do here on RevLeft Radio, you can support us directly. We are 100% listener funded at patreon.com forward slash RevLeft Radio. And in exchange for your support, you get access to monthly bonus content. Without further ado, here is my interview with Mina and Shamayal on Afghanistan from the perspective of Afghans. Enjoy. My name is Mina Sharif.

I was a product of the Afghan war in the 80s. My parents immigrated to Canada, and that's where I grew up. In 2005, I returned to Afghanistan and stayed for about 15 years. This was where I rediscovered who I was what the immigrant experience meant to me. And now after the fall of Afghanistan, I have to face what it means all over again. Hi there. I'm Shamael Shalise. I have a little business called Blingestan, where I make jewelry and clothes based off of my time living in Afghanistan. I grew up between Russia and the U.S. And then when I was about 14, I moved to Kabul with my dad, where I went to high school and stayed on.

And I mostly work in art, but in the past couple of months, I've been really focused alongside with Ms. Mina on helping Afonistan as much as we can. Wonderful. Yeah, well, it's an honor to have both of you on to talk about not only the history and like the current political topics, but, you know, a deeper investigation. into the culture of Afghanistan, and I think there's a lot of ignorance and blind spots for average Americans when it comes to that culture and that society, and as so often happens with American wars, Americans learn about geography and other countries through their government's destruction of those countries, and even then it's a very one-sided, infantile understanding. So hopefully we can have some depth here. So thank you both so

much for coming on. And both of you mentioned your personal connections to Afghanistan. So maybe we can start there. Can each of you kind of talk a little bit more about that, about Afghanistan's culture, its history, and just kind of let our listeners know what you hope to accomplish with this episode today? For me, I was limited to the lens that the rest of North America was limited to. Because I grew up in Canada, I had headlines. I had old photos from that National Geographic to look at. I did have my parents' stories, but they were quite outdated decades old and obviously very pained. And so they didn't necessarily want me to have a connection to a country that for most of my life wasn't an option to visit. So for me, I was so limited in my

scope and it means a lot to me that what I experienced when I got to Afghanistan is something I pay forward because that lens that I grew up with was so limited and so misleading as far as what Afghanistan really is, how deep and rich history is, and how little we know about the damage we've done from the rest of the world onto Afghanistan. Similarly to Mina, I have. I had, I had spent most of my childhood either hearing headlines or hearing things for my family, which gave me a kind of, I would say, surface level understanding of my identity as well as my country. And only with coming back, did I really, I mean, immediately on entering the country, I fell in love and decided that I would never leave it.

It not only fixed something personal within me, within my own identity and how I, I saw myself and how I saw my people in my country, but I also ended up learning so much more. And the biggest thing that I try and do with whatever kind of art or activism or anything that I'm doing is to change the narrative that's just so skewed and so it's so brainwashing in the West, and it's not limited to the U.S. or Canada. It's all over the world, to be honest, because the war and the war machine takes up so much of the space that our culture could be instead learned about or our people and what values we hold and who we are as a nation. So it's very important to me to kind of change, however I can,

change the narrative of Afghanistan with my lived experiences because I saw something very different than what is spoken about, very, very different. Yeah, absolutely. And for each of you personally, what aspects of Afghanistan's culture, music, aesthetics, religion, anything, do you have a particular love for, like anything that you wanted to sort of highlight? And if you want to talk a little bit more about what people who live outside the country get wrong or misunderstand about the country, that would be interesting as well. I think for me, what it was, what I had to grapple with is my own misconception. Again, based on my limited exposure to Afghanistan.

in a way that was deeper than the war stories and really feeling like I may too have given the identity of war to where I was from. So when I lived in Afghanistan and I experienced it, I think the values, the values that are so ingrained in Afghan culture from education to arts to film and all of it and how long this has been a part of who we are

was it took me some while to absorb because I had grown up thinking that, you know, that's just something Afghanistan didn't have a chance to do. Sure, I excused it. But at the same time, coming in when the West was now sort of present in Afghanistan and coming in with that group in general, we all entered with this mentality that we were giving Afghanistan something that it didn't already have. I'll use the example of the value of education. You know, we didn't, we arrived there thinking, and I'm guilty of it. I know that I had that air about me as well, which I regret, but I forgive myself for,

that we are showing Afghanistan the value of education and sending girls to school and what that means. But when I arrived, I realized that that had nothing to do with anything and that Afghan women have been encouraged and have excelled not only just in education, but in positions, in leadership, in Afghan society, in arts, in culture, in writing, in so many positions that women don't hold in countries like where I live now in Canada or in the U.S. And to really see that from up close and understand that the entire narrative of what we think we're doing, is false. We were not there to help anything. We were there. We, I say we as in all of these

countries that suddenly were able to enter and access Afghanistan. It was a completely false narrative that was sold to everybody. It was damage control. It was political. It was war-based. It was greed-based. And it was not at all to teach Afghanistan something that they already knew and had known for thousands of years. So I think I had a, the way that I was raised in my family, for example, with spirituality, there was people of different faiths in my family. And I grew up thinking, really believing in the indigenous folkloric Afghan spirituality

and thinking that that was something that having an abstract vision of it, not knowing if it was just something within my family, or within a bigger community or what. And one thing that I definitely see is gotten wrong about Avon as the fact that we are a very spiritual people. We're kind of labeled as, you know, the Islamophobic lens of very 99.9% Muslims when that's not quite exactly what's going on. Not only do we have other faiths,

but we have our own specific type of indigenous faiths, whether that's interpreting Islam or interpreting Judaism or Zoroastrianism. So seeing that on a bigger level, seeing things that I saw in my family being something that was all over the country was very beautiful. It's very deep and it's very, it's within every person and it's not very widely spoken about. I think on the subject of culture, one of the things that me and Mina talk about sometimes, too, is that there is an inherent punkness to Afghans. There's something rebellious and very brave.

Whether you want to say it has been learned because of the kind of history that we've had or what have you, that doesn't matter. There's a spirit within every Afghan that is infectious, that's very punk and very has a lot of lust for life. And I found that. incredibly beautiful and something that is not often spoken about. But we are a very artful people and from our music to our clothing to our poetry, all of it is just hundreds of years old and

so filled with things. I often talk about how, I mean, I didn't know what intersectional feminism was in the West. I learned it from a group of Afghan men headed by my brown Afghan father when I lived in Kabul, and that completely blew my mind. I learned proper intersectional feminism within the borders of Abouna San, which is not something that people would often believe and often don't believe when I tell them that this is what happened. So we just have a very, we have a very big culture, a very big history. People have been living on the land of Abounaissance for thousands and thousands of years.

And with that, you have all that comes with it. And I'm going to just add because I love what Shemail said, the rebellion just is ingrained in everything. And when I went to Afghanistan, you know, I went with the attention to quote unquote respect the culture. So it meant, you know, not pushing certain boundaries and what did it mean for women to not wear a headscarf or to drive? Well, it was always Afghan women not necessarily linked in any way to like donor programs or funding or the Americans showed them this or the Italians showed them this. It was Afghan women, always Afghan women working in Afghan fields with their own Afghan businesses. They're the ones who I would see

driving themselves to and from work, opening their own company. And I have plenty of examples, not a dime from anywhere else, but just that space of safety, because that's all we ever needed to support Afghanistan with as far as the ability to thrive. That was it. And that rebellion is already existing within Afghanistan. That's nothing we had to show anybody. Yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful point.

And just emphasizing the fact that, you know, this civilization really goes back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years and has had, you know, explosions of culture, has intermingled countless religions and different ways of, you know, world views and I mean there's even parts of its political history which were very progressive for the time even more progressive than Europe and the US particularly around the question of women which maybe we can get into when we talk about the British Empire's invasions and whatnot but before we move on to the invasions and the resistance that comes from those invasions I do want to touch on one more thing which is about the diversity of people within the borders of what we call

Afghanistan. Obviously, the majority is Pashtun, but there's also Tajik, Uzbeks, you know, Turkmen and countless others. So can each of you maybe say something just about the diversity of people that are included under the umbrella term of, you know, the people of Afghanistan? Well, I just wanted to step in that, that technically we don't, our censuses have always been skewed. The very few that have been taken and some of our areas are so remote that you can't even, people wouldn't even be able to access it so easily that I don't think it's accurate to say that we are a majority Pashtun country. We, all of our ethnicities are, there are minorities.

There's none that is a majority. And we have, we have dozens all within the land of Avonasan. And if we can go into it right now, we have been headed our heads of state, whether they were monarchs or they were presidents or what happened to you for the past 300 years since Avanosan's formation have been Pashtun and they have been the ruling ethnic group and that in that way they are dominant but in numbers they are not I just agree with Shemail it's it's visual and I think that that from a North American or let's say Western standpoint you can look at Afghanistan and it just looks like wow this country

kind of represents all different kinds of backgrounds, but that's not necessarily what it is. Because it's visual and you see different eye colors and different hair colors and different skin colors, I think people get the idea that we are little different blocks of ancestry, and that's actually not the case. It all merges together. You'll have light and dark skin throughout the country. You'll have light and dark hair. You'll have tall and short and whatever. and yeah we are we are a um sort of a harmony of a lot of different maybe ethnic uh backgrounds but at the end of the day there the rules are not there the way your eye wants to believe the way you the way you you think it might be yeah yeah absolutely and that's and i appreciate the

the correction on that it's and especially the way that it's often talked about in the context of military invasions is like this military idea of playing different ethnic groups off one another, etc. And that can lead to a misleading idea that it's really a bunch of separate, divisive, you know, cultures within a broader culture. So I appreciate the correction on that. Is there anything else you want to say about the people, the culture, anything else before we move on and talk about, particularly, obviously, the American invasion, but other invasions as well? Anything you want to say before we move on to the next topic?

I think our ethnic groups would actually be a really great one. way of looking at how deep our history goes because we really are such a mix of everyone who's been in and out of the land, right? All of the ethnic groups that are, um, can be found in Aubonistan are remnants of people who have come through in all of the years that people have been living on that land. And within, if there was a, a big, robust check of everyone's DNA, we're all mixed, you know, we're very mixed. personally, I'm a mix of three ethnic groups. And that's, I think, really part of our beauty. We do, I hope we do get into this, that we do have a very, we really did get played by the British divide and conquer strategy. But we have shown that at different points in our history, we can come together as many different tribes, as many different ethnic groups and either fight wars or, you know, have children together. So there's, there's both happen. also too that ethnic divide never in our history has caused an internal explosive war it's caused

tension but there has not been an Afghan internal ethnic divide war the ethnic divide has often come as a result of you know different presences different different situations caused by outside presence but you know all the fighting that happens in Afghanistan essentially Essentially, all of it is coming from outside its own borders. Great point, yeah. Yeah, so let's go ahead and move on. And I recently had on a guest from Iraq, my friend and, you know, well-known left-wing YouTuber, Hakeem, to talk about the Iraq war, and specifically what it was like from the

perspective of those living in Iraq when the American military imperialist apparatus invaded. So I was hoping we could do a similar thing with this situation, because I think it's crucially important. And one of the things about American war making and imperialism is that even after the dust settles, as it were, the story is told, at least from an American perspective, still from the perspective of American. In like Vietnam, for example, we talk about the Vietnam in terms of the anti-war movement and very rarely from the perspective of the Vietnamese themselves. And that's obviously a huge blind spot and a product of empire. But can each of you maybe talk about the invasion and 20-year occupation of your country by the American military and just sort of how

it impacted the people and the society at large on the ground. If I can just really quickly jump in before Ms. Mina can go, I would say that what is told to the world is that the invasion was the past 20 years, but the U.S. has been meddling in upon us on since the 1950s and even earlier than that. Okay, so I'm going to really give you more of my grassroots. experience, again, going in as Afghan diaspora and assuming, you know, we're here to fix and heal and mend, I saw that Afghans themselves, we were responding to this American presence really carefully and treading very lightly as far as how they responded. You're talking to a country

that has, you know, talking about a country that has a massive level of PTSD at this point. And now they're suddenly being approached by these Americans who, or Americans and international presence that has essentially ignored that Taliban presence for a very, very long time, but that is now saying they're here to liberate the Afghan people from that. And really everyone went in thinking they expected a lot of gratitude and thank yous. And Afghans know that. Afghans know that some of that has to be said to keep the, you know, to potentially create this safe space that they're craving.

So there was this, I feel like it was almost a pretend conversation that was happening all the time where everyone was grateful and said, thank you for kind of showing us this and this is great. Now women can work and yes, we'll be in your pamphlets and on your website. and at the same time there was always this underlayer of we don't we we know that that's not why they're here but maybe this serves their purpose as well maybe they too need the Taliban to always be you know to be out of Afghanistan so that's where that little smid of trust came in so when we say American invasion yes that is what all Afghans were feeling they that's

what they felt it was, that's what they knew it was. But there was always this false air of let's pretend that this is all because people love us and want us to have a better life. Everyone knew, but a lot of language was used to create this, I don't know, warm and fuzzy feeling that women and everyone were going to be okay because we were here to be, because they were being saved. All right. Yeah, and we'll definitely dive into the question. of the women in Afghanistan here in a big, because I think that deserves its own focus because it's so hyped up here in the U.S.

But Shaamayal, did you have anything else to say about the invasion itself and its impact on the people in the society? So I hope I can actually be quite leftist with my answer because I would say, living, you know, going to school and having an everyday life in Afan one thing I really quickly noticed was how most Most people, regardless of their age, were pretty politically savvy of the past 30, 40, 50 years of what had been happening in Afghanistan, much more so than Afghans living abroad and obviously much more so than non-Afghans anywhere else in the world.

And it was not strange to find a person that was the same age as me, you know, 15-year-old who could tell you that the Taliban were created with American and their allies funding in Pakistan. that was very normal and that was a very normal conversation to be able to have anywhere at any point. So I think that this not fully trusting bit that Mina was saying is true. There was there, Afghans knew that there was some kind of political game being played because they knew the backstory that came with that, with all of this, right? And even though the Taliban were only in power for five years in the 90s to 2001, that kind of clouds everyone's judgment. People forget that that was literally five years. But prior to that, we had internal fighting. And prior to that, we had the, I don't like to call it the Soviet-Afghan War because that makes it, that's misleading.

It was the Soviets and Afghans versus other Afghans. That's what the war was. So those years before that and all of the turmoil that had been building up and building up to the early 90s where it was absolute chaos. And then the Taliban came and it was even worse and more traumatic and different than anything that had ever been in Afghanistan. What happens is there's also a – and this is something that's been said at many different time periods of Afghans saying this in our history is that there's like a relief when something new happens. maybe this will change something, even with their understanding of politics and the political games being played and things like that, there is still a little bit of hope that maybe this will stop some of the fighting because we just want the fighting to stop or we just want the suffering to stop.

And I think that shows the kind of terrible years that had come before it, that they were, that Afghans were willing to even see what the Americans were doing. doing just off the back of not wanting to have the same shit that they had kept having. Yeah, maybe we could drill down a little bit on what you just mentioned about the Taliban, only being in power since I think 1996 and then losing it at the dawn of the invasion itself. Can you just like, what are the perspectives of the Taliban by Afghans on the ground? And if you want to maybe talk a little bit about how the Taliban came to be at all. Well, I think Shamao will be good at talking about where they came from,

but I do want to make a point that is lost even in current day on discussions of Afghanistan. I think we are under this impression that they disappeared for 20 years with the international presence, and that it couldn't be farther from the truth. Afghanistan was never liberated from the Taliban. So although they were in full power for a short time, they have been present the entire time from my personal. experience having gone in 2005 right up until my return to Canada in 2019, there were always areas and it was growing areas that were under Taliban rule and therefore were not safe

for Afghans to travel to, areas that were completely isolated, cut off from supplies and living in that same misery that we're seeing spread out throughout the entire country now. It's not new. It was never paused. Their control was never gone. It was just a matter of pockets versus the entire country now. So Taliban has been around. Taliban has, we've always known where they were coming from, but nothing had been done to fully liberate Afghanistan from them at any point, including the 20 years. Really important point. Yeah. Shamael, you want to talk a little bit about where they came from? So the Taliban were, hopefully, I don't need to do too much history with this, but the Taliban were created in the 80s when the U.S. and its allies were fighting the Cold War

and realized that Afghan fighters who were against the Soviet army that was supporting the Afghan communist government, that those fighters were very good at fighting. So when the U.S. and its allies realized that they could be used these fighters to not just win what was going on in Abuasan, but also win the entire Cold War completely. What they decided to do was work on this narrative that Islam is inherently antithetical to socialism and communism and any leftist beliefs. When anyone who has opened the Quran will see that actually Islam is the closest religion to believing in anything anti-capitalist whatsoever. But they really made this work to create fighters who would fight on an ideology.

There is something very different between a soldier who is fighting for an ideology that they're willing to die for as opposed to someone fighting for other reasons. So when they spread this within Afghanistan, well, most specifically in Pakistan, they took the border towns, which is a contentious border that we've already had problems with since partition, which is the Duran line, the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, they took that strip of land that they are allies with Pakistan and started sending funds and books. The University of Nebraska made books, textbooks for these kids who were already very colonized and very oppressed Pashtuns living on the border towns who had been separated by this colonial

border and giving them everything they needed to get completely brainwashed into fighting for Islam because that is apparently against leftist beliefs. And once they started training them in the 80s, they got what they wanted. They trained these boys to fight on behalf of Islam. And this kind of ideology spread all over the world. You have Chechen's fighting in our home. You have Uzbek's fighting, Uzbek from the country of Uzbekistan, not our naturally occurring Uzbek ethnic group. You have people from all over the Muslim world coming and perpetuating that ideology that was just a game that the U.S. and its allies played to make sure that they toppled the Soviet Union. And after nine years, the Soviet Union withdrew

from Afghanistan, but it also collapsed. their economy collapsed off the back of the war that they had been trying to win in at one asan and so that is how the Taliban were created and then it just kept going right so those chickens came home to roost or however the saying goes and that's that's where the Taliban were born from yeah absolutely crucial fascinating point to to really make sure that people pay attention to and internalize is like these this is a creation of of west imperialism in their proxy war against the Soviet Union during the Cold War. And then it's those very forces that were trained and funded under the Reagan

administration and subsequent ones that come back and are the bad guys, quote unquote, that the U.S. has to, you know, keep in check or make sure they don't take over the country, et cetera. And so there's layers of irony there. And, you know, I live in Omaha. I got a bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska. It's a little known thing that the University of Nebraska in particular played that role that you mentioned in propagandizing and spreading that certain sort of reactionary strain of Islamism and to contrast and fight socialism, communism, another leftist idea. So, yeah, really, really fascinating.

It's crazy that you went to the University of Nebraska. That's such a coincidence. because now it's actually you're able to find these things on the internet and search about them more openly. You know, I'm sure we don't have access to everything, but the boys that were trained in these border towns had never been to school. They actually, it's a, it's been known in that area to not trust the madrasas, these schools that are built by the Pakistani government by these pastunes. They don't trust them because they, they live under oppression in this. in this country, right? They don't belong to Pakistan and they never wanted to be a part of Pakistan.

But the thing that's very sad is when you look at these now available textbooks that were given to five-year-old, six-year-old, seven-year-old kids who had never been up until that point allowed to go to school in Pakistan because they were Pashtuns. You see that the way they taught them math was one grenade, two grenade, makes three grenade. And what do you do with a grenade? you blow up coffees, non-Muslims, how could you do that to children? How could you, how did people feel comfortable?

Even the people who sat and typed up these books, how did they live with themselves afterwards? Yeah, it's a crime against humanity in and of itself, without a doubt, disgusting. Let's move forward to the recent withdrawal because it's obviously very topical and it's in the news. And many people across the political spectrum, you know, opportunistically turned the chaotic event into a political football for their already existing commitments, but very few genuinely focused on the people of Afghanistan and their perspective. So, you know, just an open question, what do regular Afghans feel and think about the withdrawal in particular and the subsequent, you know, sort of re-takeover, if you will, of the country by the Taliban? In the time that I was in Afghanistan, I think there was a lot of apprehension. I was saying earlier that the trust and the excitement was always apprehensive because of the history. But of course, you know, a decade passes and 15 years passes and 18 years passes.

And you have a younger generation that's obviously a little more hopeful and hasn't necessarily experienced intense violence in their own lives. And so it may be different for different people. There was always people that I knew who kept a low profile, were careful not to necessarily be involved in anything too Western or to American. And I thought that at the time that these are just people who were more comfortable being more conservative. But, you know, in hindsight, they were obviously weary of exactly what ended up happening. So some people weren't necessarily shocked just because they had eyes and ears to the ground and knew that no one was really doing anything to stop the Taliban. No one was really playing a key role in making this go away. And, you know, two decades is quite long enough to do something about such a small group, but that it wasn't being done not only by the international presence, but by the corrupt Afghan government as well.

so it wasn't necessarily a shock for everyone but for a lot of people it was and I think that as a western population looks at it and just thinks that everyone is going to be relieved when they're out and all the refugees are the lucky ones and you know afghans really love Afghanistan afghans love it no matter how hard it is no matter how painful it is to to be there Afghans want to live in Afghanistan, and the devastation, I don't think, has hit any single one of us yet. So how Afghans are feeling, some lack the shock that others have, but I don't know a single Afghan who isn't shattered by the fact that we're really all stateless right now. Shalmael, anything to add? It was interesting. I was talking to one of my brothers earlier who lives.

in the province of Ghazni in a small village. And he was talking about how, and Rezni has been, this is where my father is from, this has been a province that has been one of those provinces that has had Taliban in and out of it for the past, you know, 20 plus years. It was never 100% quote unquote liberated from them. And my brother was saying how in passing,

he mentioned how at least there's no fighting right now, no fighting at all, because usually it would be the Talibs against the international forces, and at least that's stopped right now. But at the same time, in the same conversation, he later said, but the government isn't going anywhere. I'd say it feels like we're on a bus with no bus driver right now. We don't know what's happening with the government, and it's completely in chaos. I think what's difficult to kind of describe to non-Aver or even Afghans who have not lived in Afghanistan is that people don't see the Taliban or don't see the corrupt Afghan governments that have existed in the past 20 years that were

American puppets. They don't see them with the hyper kind of lenses that the Western media puts on them. So what that ends up doing is you can see it more for for person, you can see more personally like there are people i know who are also sad that their life has to change they can't do what they were doing four months ago and that i think that's also part of it you know it's not just like oh evil brown men with turbans have now taken over no the taliban had been in apon asan it's more also about the fact that everyday agents who were you know participating in their own self-actualization have now been thrown for a loop and now people are going hungry and there's a crisis of money and all of these other things that are going on are taking away from that.

And whether or not the past 20 years were bliss, at least people had something that felt like they were going towards what they would want to live with their life, that there was that kind of stability. But without going all over the place, it is different in different parts of the country. Yeah, absolutely. The complexities here are really important to wade through, and I appreciate that nuance. And, you know, always saying that there are different perspectives here. There is no monolithic opinion. One thing I definitely wanted to touch on, and we talked about this a little bit in the emails, is the question of women in Afghanistan, because there is this, in my opinion, very cynical, opportunistic attempt by even like reactionaries here in the U.S.

who don't even believe in a woman's bodily autonomy to frame their interventionism or their want to dominate and control other countries in progressive language. Like, you know, we're doing this for the women of Afghanistan. We're actually, you know, a feminist movement or whatever it may be. So I know that's a very complicated question. You can take it in whatever direction you want, but what is your perspective on that entire line of reasoning and what is the on the ground truth as compared to the you know american sort of sandcastle imagination version of what's going on so the the truth is that

um afghan women didn't need to be liberated um and that that was all the lie it it's it was safety and when at times of war um the most vulnerable are the women and children and that's just that's just how it is and so when women were less likely to be enrolled in school or less likely to be able to join you know society and and take on certain roles that wasn't all because um this horrible religion and these backwards people didn't want their women faces shown it that that's all a falsehood they they needed a safe space and that took some time to to like with hesitation trust but you saw the numbers the numbers of women involved in the number of women in in for example parliament or

in um in playing getting taking on the role of minister which again is not new to afghanistan but was re-emerging in afghanistan because of that safe space so i will credit you know that presence for having created at least a little tiny window of some resemblance of a of a safe space for that to happen and that's what was I would say appreciated which is really usually using that term but which was um but which had an impact now as far as what the feelings within households were that's where we were really um letting it look like a savior had come in and I think that a lot of times when Afghans are being approached with, we just need you to say thank you, and then we can move on to continuing to support Afghanistan, and then they will say thank you. And so a lot of that gratitude makes it look like, yeah, that's what we needed. We just needed you to tell us that girls should go to school and women should work. And so thank you. That happens because Afghans wanted to continue in this peaceful direction. It doesn't happen because we were, you know,

suddenly taught something brand new. And you will see that within Afghan households across the board. Nobody's ever said in any of the time I was there, wow, what a novel concept, women having rights. It was never novel. And if you look at Afghanistan's thousands of year old history, you'll see for yourself. I don't think that that's anything that people take the time to do. But if they did, they could come to learn something about Afghan women that goes far beyond this sad little, we're not allowed to do anything story that they've sold themselves. If you look at Akin women right now, abandoned by the entire world, they're the one staring the barrel of the gun in the face and protesting despite not only direct threats, but a complete complacency

by the rest of the world to let it happen. They don't care. They'd rather die than live in this way that people have pretended they liked to live all along. Well said. Shamaiel, if you want to touch on that and maybe also mention maybe feminist history, because as both of you have alluded to, this is nothing new. There's a long tradition of feminism from Afghan women. So if you want to touch on that as well, that'd be awesome. Well, to give you a couple of different angles of that, I used to be told by my father that there was women in parliament in Avonassan before women could be even the headmaster, headmistress of an elementary school in the West and that I should never forget that.

But also in all of our wars, this is a little bit intense, but the women have been known as being so strong and so ruthless and so land defending and so much for their people that the men during the British, during the Soviets, would bring the prisoners of wars for the women to torture. That's the kind of bravery and honor. And yes, I understand people can be pacifists as well, maybe listening to this. But that shows that they were a part of society as well as very well known for their strength and their bravery and their code of conduct and honor that they lived by for their people and their country.

I think the difficulty with Afghan women talking about Afghan women against the grain of mainstream media is that the West doesn't quite understand feminism in general at all. White feminism is not feminism. And the issue there is that things like when Laura Bush went on talk shows immediately after 9-11 and begged and pleaded that we must save Abby. Afghan women, because God forbid they're wearing burqas, when really is, do we focus liberation on what a person is wearing? And if we can't see beyond that, then we can't really have a conversation about feminism in general. There are people who are saying, oh, the Americans help liberate Afghan women who think that

someone's liberation is decided by the hemline of their miniskirt, which that's not what is the definition of liberation. Sure, there is, there is a part of it that's attached to liberation rights and being able to dress how you want and wear what you want and things like that. But I've spent time in the West. I can't wear what I want in general and not, not be faced with harassment and cat calling and things like that. So the difficulty of talking about Afghan women and feminism in general is the fact that people don't see feminism in the correct lens to begin with. They don't have that foundation. And Afghan women have really been through it all and somehow are still so, so incredibly strong. Just like Mina said, who are leading

the protests, who are visibly showing their faces, they can be named and pointed out and staring right back at the Taliban and demanding their rights. I mean, if that's not strength, I don't really know what is. And if that's not intersectional feminism, I don't really know what is. Yeah. Incredibly well said, I think we all agree that regardless of the complexities of this general question, the idea that the U.S. and its allies are going into Afghanistan, first and foremost, to care about the people of Afghanistan, much less liberate the women of Afghanistan,

is always this lie, this absurd notion that the U.S. is not motivated by geopolitics and economic interests, but rather by these interests in human rights and liberating other people everywhere the U.S. goes, that's never the case. So at the very least, we can dispense with that lie. And also, at a time of war, especially the kind of instability that we had also with war in the early 90s and mid-90s in Afghanistan is that things can get very patriarchal very quickly. Now, does that mean that our culture was inherently toxic masculinity from the jump? No, that's not what it means. But when things become a little bit more dog-eat-dog world, like Nina said, the first people

who get attacked are the most vulnerable, the women, the children, and the minorityized people, whether they're different religions or different ethnic groups. or however, right? So when the difficulty here as well is we could show you all of the progress, quote unquote progress that we had as a society in Afghanistan prior to the Taliban with what our women were capable of doing who were only able to do those things because they work together with the men of their society. Women went to school because their fathers encouraged it.

women fought alongside men because they respected each other as soldiers. Those things happened within our country at a time where we could actually digest that and process that. But when you have years and years of instability, hunger, famine, drought, all the things that happened in the 90s, switching of government, we've had every single government that has been written about and theorized in Afghanistan in the past 50 years, that it makes it very difficult to kind of step back and everyone processing. their trauma and heal together and then move forward in the way that we were. So I think also that has been used to kind of manipulate the story from the Western angle is to be like, well, look, Afghan women wore burqas. You know, you can go to parts of Abouna San, and I have, and I've asked people, women there, do you wear burqa in my own province of Rezni? And they would say, why the hell would I wear a burqa I have to farm how would I move around in that and that's an

Afghan woman saying that whether the Taliban put that burqa on her or not is a different question but that that's the that's the real nuance here is we can't even get to the discussion of why certain things happened and were allowed to stack on each other because the whole lens is so corrupted and you know if you can't if you can't even give the women of your own country their rights. How are you going to do it for some other country? Right. Exactly right. Yeah, well said. We've mentioned the invasion by the British Empire. You've mentioned that the Soviet Union intervention on behalf of a segment of Afghanistan versus another segment. And before the U.S. invasion and these other ones, I mean, Afghanistan being strategically located as it is has been in

conflict with other nations and fought off invasions by forces for centuries. I mean, far back it was invaded by the likes of Alexander the Great in Genghis Khan, but in the modern era, it's been invaded by the British Empire, I think, three times, obviously the U.S. and its NATO allies and the Soviet Union as well, all for very different reasons often. Can you talk about any of this history and just basically how these, you know, waves of invasions have shaped the culture and the people and how they differ from one another? Oh, Shemail is our history above, so I think he needs to do that. I will give you, um, I will give you, um, I will will give you how, you know, it has my impact in my experience and my, my relationship with

Afghanistan is very much based on, on what, what these wars have meant in my family and what it's meant for us as far as the opportunity to live where we're from, right? So I think in, in past, let's say the Soviet presence and what was going on in the 80s, That's what caused my family to have to leave, and it's created this space of we're so grateful to the West because there wasn't enough information about, you know, how and where did we really get here? And I think the Afghan identity really, as far as the diaspora, got so lost in this gratitude that no one paused to say, wait, but how did we get here? Why are we here? Why are we fleeing our country? And what role did different countries play in that? So just really, really lost in the, oh, but thank goodness, we're safe and alive. And what's happening now, again, is absolutely, I'm worried, a repeat of that where we are just celebrating every evacuation and celebrating how wonderful it is that these, that Airbnb gave these guys a room. And that's all great, but I can't help but. see that, you know, there's a risk of once again, you know, letting the why and how we got here

slip away and having this whole thing repeat itself, where everyone is just in such survival mode of thank goodness we're okay and thank goodness for alive that that we lose another and another and another generation to the identity that belongs to them and just keeps getting ripped away. So I know that doesn't exactly answer what you were talking about, but, But to me, that history just constantly repeats because we don't stop and look at who was involved. We weren't just in Afghanistan, in this tiny little country, just constantly killing each other. And that's just such a false story. And it can't keep going.

Yeah, important for sure. Shalmael. And to kind of piggyback off what Mina is saying, these stories of refugees, whether they're coming now, where they came in the 80s, are directly used to perpetuate the myths of capitalism in the West. And I think that's incredibly dangerous, not just because of Afghanistan's very strong connection to leftist politics, but also because you then get, you then get mouthpieces that are constantly perpetuating the narrative of, you know, American dream style things. There's a similarity between Afghans and, for example, Cuban immigrants to, let's take the U.S.

And the stories get used to perpetuate the war machine and also perpetuate that, hey, it's okay to work 15 hours a day and come home and not even have time to rest and just get up and do it again tomorrow and barely be able to feed yourself because at least you're not in Afghanistan dying, which is completely false. You know, that whole thing is false. So then you have Afghans or Cubans who came and fled saying the same thing and perpetuating that story and being these quote-unquote success stories that just makes capitalism run harder. And oftentimes they take the worst jobs. They have the shittiest experiences. But all at the same time, they have to keep this gratitude. And this is the danger of not knowing history, your own history, as well as world history. I always say that if people knew a little bit more about the Afghan history, you don't even have to go back thousands of years, just the past 100 years, you would see all the superpowers of the world's flaws.

Everything has played out in Afghanistan, and we can't keep repeating that as I have this thing that I do with a friend on my Blingistan, my business's Instagram, where we walked. people through the entire 300 years since when it's son has become a nation state, the entire history from the everyday perspective of people. Because that's one thing that was incredibly shocking to me when I got to the country was not only seeing how politically savvy everyone was no matter what age they were, but also realizing that so much of what I learned,

not from my parents necessarily, not at all from them, more from what I heard and how I heard the Afghan story being manipulated in the West was a complete lie. Like how I said earlier, why is it called the Soviet invasion of Avonistan when if you just speak to a person who lives through it, we're a community-based culture

where we speak to our elders and we learn from them. Or you can open a book. The Soviets came into the country because the Afghan communist, one faction of the Afghan communist government was being ruthless and crazy. And I'm not saying I am not whitewashing the Soviet Union and I'm not saying that their communism was perfect, not at all. And I will never say that.

But the Soviets were so distraught by how the Afghan government was just leading a massacre that they came in to help that situation. And it was an invitation on the Afghan government's part. And then, et cetera, et cetera, it turned into one. Afghan group fighting another Afghan group, the Soviet Union, the Afghan army and the Afghan government versus different factions of guerrilla fighters, whether they were the people that would become the Taliban, or there were actual Afghan socialists who didn't believe in Soviet expansionism fighting against these people. Who talks about that? The only thing that talked about with the Afghan, quote, war with the Soviet Union is that it was Afghans versus.

the Soviets and we didn't want leftist politics in the borders of Afghanistan because we were Muslim and but that's not the truth at all and it would just it would it would serve every person on earth something if they looked into the history of Avan asan because so much of contemporary politics have been affected by what happened in Avaan and it's rippled across across the globe completely. Yeah. Yeah, crucially important points. And I really, you know, I for a long time wanted to do a full episode on that period of history in particular and just dive into the details there. This is more of a survey and we can't get into the specifics of any one historical event, but we'd love to perhaps have you back on to go deeper into that, those events at some

point because there's so much to learn there and it's really crucial. But let's go ahead and kind of bouncing off that last question, I'm interested if we can talk a little bit about the left-wing movements and the communist or socialist political formations or parties within Afghanistan, particularly over the past half a century or so. And, you know, what the left in Afghanistan today in so far as it exists, what their political vision is or their structures are for the country overall. And you can take that question in any direction you want. I always say in a land that is so predominantly agrarian and farmer-based, agricultural-based, you know, 80% of the country almost, why would they be a group of capitalists? They haven't been and they never will be. So leftist politics has been really deep and has been long winding in Afghanistan. There are tribes of Afghans that turned red in the early 1900s. And there are.

there have been movements led by Afghans for either socialism mixed with a kind of Islamic understanding or just straight communism. I couldn't name you the amount of the different parties that believed in leftist politics in Afghanistan starting in the early 1900s all the way till now. But I think there was obviously differences between these groups and it started to pick up more steam in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, a lot of the countryside was turning red, as well as the youth. And they didn't believe that the monarchy was sufficient enough. There was too much instability. The poor was very poor. There was outside of Kabul, things were, needs were not being met. So it was very simple for the country to become very leftist

leaning but there was obviously divisions of different parties that wanted different things a lot of the ones that had some of the greatest ideas than the greatest visions for alfon asan were not the ones who got into power and a lot of them were you know the leaders were snuffed out and the kind of usual things that happened like that assassinations people disappearing in the middle of the night from their homes but one thing that i think was very beautiful was a lot of these groups were founded off of things that were very Afghan, you know, Afghan values, education for everyone. Everyone should be able to get education, not just men and women who live in Kabul. There was a lot of, there was classism was very much addressed, feudalism, you know, lords and

how there was lords of lands. That was very addressed, which is something that we have a problem with in our country. But they also spoke. so much about this divide and conquer stuff that had been brought to us by the British and trying to ease the tensions of different ethnic groups. And those are things that we still need right now. And it would be lovely to have. It would be lovely to reopen those conversations. But the unfortunate thing is that some of the, quote, communist groups that took power in the 80s, they were so, some of them were so bloodthirsty that, you know, the Soviets had to come and tell them stop. You know, that's how the Soviets entered. So with that kind of a bloodthirsty, power hungry

vacuum that was created when the country was slowly trying to transition from Democratic Republic of Afghanistan to a complete communist government, it left huge holes in our society. So many leftist activists, leftist thinkers were killed. They were slaughtered and not off of the back of their ideology just because they were from a different faction than the communist government that was in power. And again, there's so much to dive into there. And I would really love to have you back on to discuss that more in detail because that could be a five-hour episode on its own.

But, you know, this is a first pass over these topics that I would love to get deeper into through the show eventually. But sort of winding down here and wrapping up the conversation, I'm just wondering if both of you can just sort of articulate your personal vision for the future that you would want to see in Afghanistan, that the people of Afghanistan would most be, you know, benefited by and sort of what that vision is from each of you personally? Well, I mean, mine is, so it's a little idealistic, but, you know, what else can we be for Afghanistan at this point? Because everything else has failed. But to really hope for the opportunity on an individual basis, on a community basis,

and on just like our people, they need to heal. They need a little buffer of time where there is just some relative presence of peace, of a lack of violence. And then we need to be left to our own devices. I know that Afghanistan is a country that can rebuild its own economy. We have plenty of great resources. We have so much that the rest of the world wants and continues to steal. If we were to be left to our own devices, we could build our own economy. I know that with that healing that I referred to, we could try something that hasn't been tried before, which is a real sense of unity amongst Afghans and building our own leadership in our own way. And it's so crazy that I'm saying this. But you know what? That's the only thing that hasn't been tried in Afghanistan,

letting Afghans lead their own country, leaving them alone to lead their own country. That's the only thing that hasn't been given a shot. And I think that if it were to, I mean, that would, that's the final answer. And as far as the state that we're in now, how far it's crumbled. When I say that Afghanistan needs aid, I say it because it is owed, not because I think that everyone needs to give handouts to Afghanistan. No, countries need to repay the damage that they've done and with maybe that minimal aid, that minimal support. And again, support is very different from interference support means be there to alleviate some of the massive damage you've done to this country and then kind of back off back off and allow Afghanistan a chance to live and breathe

in its own land and that's the only thing we haven't tried yet absolutely how am i yeah yeah i couldn't agree more if we were just left alone and and left in peace with some kind of stability and we had a government for the people, you know, we, I am hesitant to say this because of the audience that you may have, but it's something that we as Afghans need to think about that because of the stress of the past few decades, there has been a lot of Afghans who live in this mindset of the dog-e-dog world and are ready to sell out their nation and their people in a way that has allowed certain things to happen in the past 20, 30 years. If that hadn't happened,

if those people hadn't been focused in a selfish way that even though I may not forgive them in this lifetime, I can empathize why it happened. You know, you want to feed your family. You are worried about what will happen tomorrow. If those things, if we could heal that group of people as well as healing the entire community, then maybe we could get somewhere where the humanity

is restored in our people. And I'm not saying that Afghans lack humanity on a general level. No, I'm saying there are a few people that have had such bad PTSD and have exploited the situation that they have been easily manipulated by outside forces to sell out their people. And that kind of stuff can't happen anymore because it's antithetical to the way that we have been for the past hundreds and hundreds of years, one of the staples of our. identity is loving our nation, loving our motherland, and loving our people. And if we could be left alone, just as Mina said, to heal together with a little bit of stability, I do also believe

that we could get ourselves to a place where we were on a road to this years ago. We could get ourselves back to that road and go further. Yeah. Beautifully said by both of you, I think ultimately, as you both alluded to, it boils down to true self-determination. of the people of Afghanistan to choose and forge their own future free from the intervention of other countries and their particular political interests. And I think that is absolutely essential. One more question that just popped to my mind before we wrap this up. And I don't know if either of you have studied this particular topic in any depth, but I'm just interested in climate change and its impacts on that region in particular because of its already

existing sort of intense temperature spectrum that even in a normal climate it has. I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on how climate change will affect Afghanistan in particular. I think we're in trouble right now. We were headed down a path in the recent years where there was some attention finally being paid to Afghanistan and it's kind of importance regionally and how, I mean, it's important regionally in every sense, but also in climate. And there were steps being taken as far as certain provinces being on the reserve of forestry and all kinds of steps are being taken. And now what we have is China at our door wanting to mine and wanting to kind of take that

over. So let's see how that goes. Shall I have any words on climate change? Yeah, I mean, we know that climate change will, has affected and will continue. to affect the global south worse than anywhere else because of the infrastructure is in place and how the world works under American imperialism and global capitalism. What is detrimental to have when Assad is the fact that we are a country, like I mentioned, incredibly relying on farming.

And if the everyday person's livelihood is being affected by climate change, then we have a problem, especially with the fact that the government is so unstable right now. Yeah, absolutely. Something to keep an eye on in that entire region in particular. And it's going, I think that the impacts that climate has on the world's political, economic and social systems is going to be a huge thing that our civilization, our species is going to have to navigate in the coming decades for sure. Well, I'm going to end it there, although I love this conversation. I really appreciate both of you coming on. And I would love to go deeper on some of these topics that we could just do a first flyover on today.

But before I let you go, if you have any last words you want to say, any resources you'd recommend anybody wanting to deepen their knowledge of the country and its culture, and then finally where listeners can find each of you online. Can I just quickly say that there was a question about people on the ground right now with, with how they're reacting to the new Taliban government? I just wanted to also, I didn't mention it. but I just thought of it that there are people living under the current situation right now who also lived under it in the 1990s and there is a PTSD that comes with that that I don't think

you know we forget about the humanitarian effects or the human effects of things like this right that there are people who see Talib soldiers and are reminded of something that they had passed themselves 20 years ago and what kind of flashes that brings to them. And that was just something that I wanted to make sure to add. Yeah. Mina, we didn't even speak about how we are a team. Me and Mina do diaspora passing Instagram live, a weekly Instagram live, where we speak for about an hour every week on different subjects where we call ourselves diaspora passing because we can pass as Afghan diaspora who grew up outside of Avonasan, but we have all of this lived experience from inside the country. And we just try and bridge the gap between Afghans all over

the world and Afghans back home. And we take on, you know, we take on topics such as music and light subjects like that to kind of educate people if they, they don't have that access of living in Afghanistan. But we also take on deeper things like we had a conversation about foreigners a couple of weeks ago or love and romance in Afghan culture and so that's that's available for you guys to find us through Instagram I'm on Instagram as Blingestan and miss Nina is miss Mina Kabul on Instagram right yeah I'm I'm miss Mina Kabul and see I went overnight from a producer of children's media um I do girls mentorship programs in Afghanistan, generally under the media scope, to what has to be

called an activist. And I hate that word because every Afghan on the planet right now who wants peace in their country has become an overnight activist simply for what's going on in their hearts right now. What I try to do is take my 15 years in Afghanistan and sort of like that whole seeing the unveiling of the truth versus what I had been provided growing up and pay that forward to those who are in the West and had that same limited exposure, particularly, of course, to Afghans because I feel like it's a duty to create that bond because we continue. And of course, now after August 15th, we continue more to be forcefully disconnect.

from who we are in our identity. So I do dedicate a lot of time to articles and photo sharing and messages that help people better understand the human side of Afghanistan, better understand the day-to-day life, the true really essence of love in Afghanistan and the love that people have for their country. And so you can definitely follow me there. I'm always happy to answer questions through my lens because it is. is a particular one. It is one that changed when I got there. It is one that was limited and opened up. So I am at Miss Mina Cable on Instagram. And at Miss, at Mina Sharif on Twitter, where

I'm less lovey-dovey on Twitter. I'm a little more impressive. As we all are. Yeah, well, thank you both so much for coming on. I'll link to all of that in the show notes so people can follow up on those recommendations and connect with you if they have questions or want to learn more. And again, thank you both so much for coming on and keep up the amazing work. Thank you. Thank you so much. on a different of social, tachsyr too

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