Rev Left Radio - Socialism & The System: Interview w/ NY State Senator Julia Salazar

Episode Date: May 24, 2020

New York State Senator and Democratic Socialist Julia Salazar joins Breht to discuss her path to socialism, her position within the electoral apparatus, the Democratic Party, Lenin, Anti-Imperialism, and much more!  Follow Julia on Twitter HERE and HERE Donate to Julia's campaign HERE Outro music 'Can I Sit Next to You' by Spoon LEARN MORE ABOUT REV LEFT RADIO: www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Hello everybody and welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. So on today's episode, we have a pretty unique episode, which is to have an interview with a sitting state senator. Today we have on Julia Salazar from New York. She is a representative of Brooklyn. So we have a wonderful conversation just sort of thinking through the implications of electoralism, talking about, you know, what it is that a Marxist can do from the inside. We critique the Democratic Party and outline a possible future for socialist movements that don't need to use or be engaged with a formation like the Democratic Party.

So all in all, we're very honored to have Julia come on the show and have this discussion and tackle some really big, complicated questions that politicians don't often get asked. So this was awesome. It was a first for us to interview somebody. of this sort of political standing, and we're really excited to share this with our listeners today. So without further ado, let's get into our interview with New York State Senator Julius Salazar. Enjoy. First of all, thanks so much for having me. I'm honored to be joining you today. My name is

Julia Salazar, and I am the first term state senator for New York's 18th district, which is in Brooklyn. I represent the communities of Cypress Hills, where I live, East New York, Bushwick, Williamsburg, and Greenpoint in the state Senate. I'm a Democratic socialist and the first socialist who have served in the state Senate in a long time, nearly, you know, since like the early 1900s. And I'm the youngest woman to be elected to the state Senate in the state's history. So I am I'm very honored to be in this position and excited to talk about policy as well as being a socialist in the legislature. Absolutely. And yeah, we're beyond honored to have you on.

Never really thought we'd have a state senator on this show. So this is really cool and new for us. And we're really excited. So, yeah, thank you so much for taking time out to come on this show. I know that you said that you were a socialist. Maybe you could dive a little deeper into how you would describe yourself politically if there's any specific. strain of socialism that you identify with, and then maybe you can talk about some historical figures or movements that you personally draw inspiration from politically?

Sure. As far as people who I draw inspiration from, historical figures, living, no longer living, I really admire and have learned tremendously from Sylvia Federici as a feminist, Marxist. I consider myself to be a Marxist. Angela Davis, people who both identified as socialist at some point and maybe no longer do, but who I think I share a common worldview with and have been fortunate to learn from, you know, both their activism and their academic work. Also, labor figures like Roe Schneiderman, women especially who have been, working class leaders and really fought to organize in the context that they found themselves in order to win material changes for people. And I think, you know, on that note, that is what

I see as the most compelling way for us to win social change is for people who are directly impacted by the oppressive forces in society first and foremost capitalism to be in solidarity with each other to be edifying each other and and building networks and communities that can collectively resist the the powers that are oppressing us right i consider myself as socialist feminist so or or feminist socialist however you want to look at it meaning that I not only prescribe to Marxist worldview and theory about how society is structured and sort of theory of change to borrow a term that a lot of non-Marxists probably use, but additionally, the lens that I sort of apply to that is that of not just my lived experience

as a Colombian American woman, a woman of color in New York, but from the understanding that capitalism is fueled by patriarchy and the oppression of women and the exploitation of feminine labor. Absolutely, yeah, it's a wonderful answer. Marxist feminism is awesome. It's an important strain of socialism and certainly a huge influence on us. We've had Sylvia Federici on this show, actually, and it was one of our, or my personally sort of favorite interviews thus far, she's a real wonderful thinker,

and she's also contributed it a lot to my understanding as well. Before we get into more questions about your political development, I guess I also, because you are in New York, I just want to take a moment to just sort of check in, like, how are you doing with the pandemic? How are things going for you personally getting through this very strange time that we're all sort of struggling through? Well, personally, I am deeply fortunate that I have been minimally affected, both You know, I have been fortunate to be healthy.

I haven't been sick. I, you know, had company during quarantine. I adopted a puppy recently, which has been really, really radically changed my quarantine experience. And most of my family lives outside of New York. Most of my family lives outside of the U.S., and they're very fortunate to be in places that are unlike New York, not the epicenter, of the public health crisis, but aside from all of that, personally, my day to day is definitely revolving around the impacts of the crisis because my community and the communities I represent have been disproportionately hit by this. Like, we're sort of the epicenter

of the, of the epicenter in Brooklyn. Yeah, absolutely. That is definitely the epicenter. low-income people, black and brown people have been hit disproportionately hard while far right white people are out protesting to open up hair salons and restaurants again. So it just sort of exposes those already existing riffs in our society for sure. But as far as getting a puppy through quarantine, that has to be something that at least sort of keeps your spirits up, gives you something to focus on it, and gives you something to do hour by hour that other people might not have. So that's actually a great time to get a puppy is right now. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I wasn't, you know, I had decided to adopt him before this really became a public health crisis, but the timing is perfect.

It's a good time to be raising a little puppy. For sure. All right, let's go on and move on. And I want to talk about political development a little bit. Many of us go through different political phases as we develop and mature intellectually. I've personally talked about my rather cringy new atheist phase in my early 20s. And I know many others who have had libertarian or conservative phases, and I think that's true of you as well. Can you talk about your political development a little bit and what sort of pushed you away from more right-wing understandings of the world and further and further left over a few decades?

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up mostly in South Florida. My father immigrated to U.S. from Colombia, where most of my family still lives. My mom, they actually met in New York. My mom's American. and they started to raise my brother and I in South Florida. We grew up in West Palm, and my mom ended up raising my brother and I mostly as a single mother. And my father actually passed away when I was a teenager.

But when I was growing up, my family wasn't really, really political, but Fox News was always on, like, in our kitchen on this little TV. The politics that I was exposed to, if at all, were, you know, more conservative, right-wing kind of the family values, or at least what they describe as family values. And when I turned 18, when I was, when I was finishing high school, I like registered as a Republican because that's just what we do. you know, is what I thought. And I was really fortunate to get to go to Columbia, Columbia University in New York, right after graduating high school.

And that was, you know, from additional context, my family's economic status kind of fluctuated between working class and middle class throughout my childhood. And when I was 14, when my mom was raising my brother. and I, my dad was not only was my mom raising us on her own, but my father was, he became chronically ill. He became disabled, wasn't able to work. And so we were like relying on public benefits. I started working when I was 14 at a grocery store and that really shaped my, my development. And eventually as a young adult, it really shaped my, my politics, simply the experience of having to work from a young age and seeing the contrast with a lot of my peers

who were fortunate to not have to work, be able to just focus on studying. And that was true in my hometown where I attended public school, but it also was even more of a stark contrast when I went to Columbia, where, of course, you know, it's pretty diverse. It's not like only rich white people go to Columbia, I think, among. elite institutions it's like more more diverse than most but nonetheless of course they were like I mean I went to school with the children of world leaders you know I went to school with kids who had gone to prep school their whole lives and and had from birth been given these resources and advantages that I suddenly realized that I hadn't had and additionally most of

them didn't have to work, whereas I worked as a nanny through college in the summers when the family that I worked for, when the kids would go up to summer camp in the Berkshires, I would clean apartments or work at clubs, do service industry stuff. And that whole experience, even though I had sort of taken for granted the very conservative political influence, that I had up until college, as soon as I got to New York and also as soon as I had a little bit more independence to develop my own political ideas. So, you know, it was both my formal political education in the classroom, but even more so the sort of development of class consciousness through that experience of just being a worker in college surrounded by people who didn't have to

work. And that had a big impact on me. It took definitely a couple years in young adulthood for my political ideology to evolve from thinking that, you know, that Fox News was right about the world to, you know, to, I think, I think initially just accepting a more liberal worldview, right? Like, I know Obama was, I didn't actually get to, vote for Obama in 2008 because I was too young, but, you know, I was becoming a young adult during Obama's first term. And that was actually sort of a big influence. Not that I wasn't involved in Obama's campaign and actually wasn't involved at all in electoral politics yet then. But a lot of people around me were. And to see someone who really, while I don't

identify, you know, as liberal or really with President Obama, nonetheless, was someone who departed from, who, you know, was historically able to become president in the United States as a black man, as someone who was more progressive. And that was probably how I would describe my ideology initially. But through a combination of political education and also my experience is organizing with other workers, with domestic workers, in solidarity with adjunct faculty, in solidarity with some of the local service industry workers, and then even eventually leading a rent strike in my building, those experiences, I think, more than anything, are what kind of radicalized me. And I started to, you know, recognize, I read, you know, red marks, but

I actually read Marx in the classroom, right? But it resonated deeply for me. And I also was learning from my classmates, you know, who, a lot of whom had much more of a developed political analysis than I did when I was 18, 19, 20. And by the time I was maybe 22, I was starting to identify as a socialist. and a little bit after that, like in 2016, I became actively involved through Jacobin reading groups, actually in Brooklyn, became actively involved in the DSA. Nice. Yeah.

Yeah, that's incredibly interesting. And track some interesting similarities to my own development as well. I think I might just be like a year older than you. So I was just old enough to vote for Obama. And I remember I actually had my first child at age 19. So I was sitting in the doctor. office like you know on one of those like six month checkups before the baby was born watching Obama give his inauguration speech and that is like a deep memory for me as well and then because

we're so similar in age we're also coming out of our teen years when the great recession hits and that was also a huge sort of you know wake up call for for me and people of similar age too when we're just entering the the job market in a lot of ways and to have everything go you know completely to shit was also eye-opening as well. But you mentioned that you start moving towards the DSA, towards socialism. How did you come to get involved explicitly with socialist politics and socialist organizing in your community? Well, I was living in Harlem for most of the time after I moved to New York in 2009.

And then in 2013, I organized a rent strike in my apartment in Harlem. And even though we were able to win some concessions from the landlord, naturally, they did not renew our lease afterward. And so I was basically, you know, forced to move and ended up in Brooklyn and away from the community where I had received political education and was sort of surrounded by academics and activists. And so finding myself in Bushwick, I searched for ways to stay connected to that. And that's how I found Jacobin reading groups. And that entailed, you know, a lot of us getting together at the Brooklyn Free School in Clinton Hill and just talking about socialist authors and articles and ideas. and that really began to define, I think, my analysis and political development more. At the same time, a lot of people there were involved in DSA,

and I actually became involved in DSA through electoral politics because a Democratic socialist named Debbie Medina, who was also a Latina tenant organizer from South Williamsburg, who ran against my predecessor, Senator DeLan in both in 2014 and in 2016. And she had the support from DSA. However, before DSA had really exponentially grown because it was before the presidential election of 2016.

But I became involved in her campaign living here and wanting to finally get involved in local politics a little bit, especially hearing that a socialist was running. and after that campaign, which was, you know, she didn't win, but it was a really inspiring campaign, I ended up joining the DSA. And funny enough, a lot of people joined the DSA in 2016, but I joined just before the general presidential election rather than in the big boost that came after. But yeah, but in that big wave that came from the presidential election, I became active. not just in electoral politics.

In fact, for a long time, or at least for a couple of years, that was not my main way of being involved in socialist organizing. I was involved in the DSA, but I was like in the leadership of the socialist feminist working group. I participated in local labor campaigns, that kind of thing. But that was really how I became more actively involved. Wonderful. Yeah. incredibly interesting and so jumping from that your political development towards the left your reading group which gave you an analysis and sort of theoretical outlook on the world turning into

actual organizing um you know tenant organizing and whatnot how did you ultimately get to the point where you decided to run for new york state senate which is a big leap for a lot of on the ground community organizers and what has that experience sort of been like for you not only as a woman of color but as someone well to the left of the political mainstream Yeah. If you had told me two, even just a little more than two years ago that I would have run for office, let alone that I would be an elected state senator, I would have just laughed. Like it was not, you know, it was not on my agenda at all. It not only was it just not in my plans, but I am naturally sort of introverted. It's, not, you know, I am a community organizer and was at the time, but I am just, I don't really have the personality that typically lends itself to running for office and, and being a politician and campaigning and telling people to vote for me. But it was, it was early 2018 and after,

I had been involved in some, just as a volunteer, in local, social, campaigns for city council like Hara El Yatim in Palestinian-American who ran as Democratic Socialist in South Brooklyn with Jabari Bristport's city council campaign. So now he's running for state senate, but ran in 2017 for council. And then of course, Debbie, who would have been my local state center if she had been elected. And I had some friends who I'd organized within that capacity who reached out in in early 2018, one of them, I remember he texted me when I was on the subway platform on my way to work. And at the time, I was a community organizer for a nonprofit. My day to day was typically organizing New Yorkers, especially people who had been impacted in some way, families who had been impacted by police brutality in the city to hold NYPD accountable and doing legislative advocacy for like criminal legal reform. So that was the context.

And my friend sent me a text message and he said, someone needs to run against Dilan, you know, the state center at the time. And I just said, yeah, someone needs to run against Dilan. And he said, you're not getting it. You know, like you're really not picking up when I'm putting down. We'll talk later. And he ended up coming to my house and I was like doing laundry the following weekend, came over to hang out and he made the pitch for the race.

And I said, yeah, like this seems. this seems right. You know, North Brooklyn had been, still is disproportionately impacted by the affordable housing crisis. A lot of people, you know, they associate gentrification with North Brooklyn because black and brown communities that have been here for generations are being displaced. And, you know, we're really at the forefront of a crisis. And at the same time, people are very civically engaged in North Brooklyn. It's why they rallied around a democratic socialist. There's actually a legacy of radical politics here. It really defies the stereotypes that people who aren't intimately familiar with these contemporary movements in

communities of color, it really defies the stereotype that like socialists are white people and they're actually affluent, you know, or like upper middle class or something, that's like not, that really doesn't describe this, this district at all. But that was, that was the context and he was talking me about it. And I said, yeah, like, let's do it. And then he said, you're the candidate. And I said, hell no, you know. And I did. I was a hard no at first. But I was, I did, I did recognize how important it was. And what really struck me and has continued to be really important to me is that the rent laws were going to expire in 2019, all the laws that determine, that basically protect

tenants who are rent regulated across the state, but especially in our neighborhoods. And it was an opportunity, you know, the political dynamics were changing in Albany at the same time and presenting this opportunity for us to have someone in there the following year who would actually advocate for tenants instead of being behold into the real estate industry, which has had such a stronghold in New York state politics for, you know, decades, at least. And so I said, I'm going to look for a candidate. The more people I asked, the more they would just hold a mirror up to me and say, like, come on, you know, you can do this, you can run.

And I had every excuse, you know, I, not only did I love my job, but I couldn't afford to just lose my job in order to run for office, et cetera, but the material reasons and logistical reasons that I had were resolved over a couple months. And by March of 2018, after being asked a few times by the same, you know, network of friends. I very hesitantly committed to running knowing that there was this movement behind us that would drive the campaign. And we really had to hit the ground running because the election, the primary election, which is, you know, the vast majority, like 95 percent or something of registered voters in our district are registered Democrats. And so the Democratic primary is like

the only election that's really consequential. And that primary was coming up in September. So we really had to hit the ground running in April in order to run a viable campaign against a 16-year incumbent who, yeah, yeah, who was notoriously beholden to the real estate industry, like took more for-profit real estate money than any other member of the Democratic Conference in the state Senate. Damn. Yeah. And you won. Yeah, that was wild, too. what did it feel like when it came out then and I mean were you confident that when going into the election that you had a good chance or were you sort of pessimistic but you know going to write it out how did you sort of feel going up to it and then when you got the news that you actually won yeah well um in in starting the campaign I given given that it was you know it's a big life decision and required me to take a leave from my my job and stuff um I didn't do it as just like a protest campaign

campaign. We looked at the demographics of the district and how it was changing and like how it was changing politically that people were becoming more politically engaged based on the previous primaries and how Debbie had had performed when she ran against the lawn. And I, we mobilized, you know, more than 1800 volunteers, a lot of Democratic socialists, but also we built. this diverse coalition because long before DSA was really active in Brooklyn and really had a lot of members, there was this, there were these communities who were organizing for their survival, you know, and so we had this, this eclectic mix of folks working to win this campaign. And by summer, the campaign was really taking off and getting really unexpected

attention for a, you know, little state Senate race. Still, to this day, it's surprising by, you know, how much, like, press coverage there was and also how intense the political opposition became. And I definitely attribute it to being a socialist, you know. But we had one thing that I think was the biggest strength of the campaign was just a really strong field operation. because we didn't have a lot of money, we certainly didn't have, you know, corporate pack money or anything and wouldn't want it, we relied on, you know, canvassing and having face-to-face door-to-door conversations with our neighbors about politics and the changes that we wanted to see. And that was really impactful. And so, anyway, by the time we got to the election, we had been very honest with ourselves about. out the data, like our, of our field operation. And because of that, it was actually clear to

me, shocking, but clear to me that we had a very good chance of winning. And then come election day, you know, simply because of the positive voter IDs, I'll say, right? But then on election day, I'll never forget being with my partner and sort of hearing from all all over the district. People say, you know, just anecdotally, people are outside of poll sites. And my partner said to me, he's like, it's not even going to be close. And I just was like, whoa, right? This was eight hours or something before the polls were even going to close.

And then that night, sure enough, we won by, you know, we've got nearly 59% of the vote, which here is, that's a huge deal. So I continue to be shocked by that. And more than anything, I attribute it to the increase in voter turnout because we saw people came out on average across our district, 280% increase. So nearly three times as much. And that was just on average. There were parts of the district that have been like historically disenfranchised, like in my own neighborhood, where turnout increased by 500%. So, yeah, it's like it's remarkable what happens when people actually show up and have a voice.

who have never had a voice in politics before. I mean, that's a product of you speaking meaningfully to people's actual material conditions and people having faith that maybe with this sort of candidate we could get our interest finally met after decades and decades of having really no say in the political process and no voice in any administration left or right. So that's wonderful. And yeah, to win by that big of a margin is certainly nothing to shake a stick. That's pretty impressive.

But now that we sort of have an idea of where you're coming from, sort of how you grew up, what your political and theoretical outlook is, now I want to sort of shift into just more reflection and analysis on the system and what's happening in it and maybe even just a defense of where you're coming from as somebody who is a Marxist, but also thinks there's important work to do on the inside. And we'll get to that question in a second. But I first want to ask you, what tensions, if any, exist between your socialist politics, your, socialist politics, your. Marxism and feminism and then your work within the system and specifically within the Democratic Party. What would have been some of those riffs? Yeah. Well, for one, in my political development and just as a young adult, I have been generally really disillusioned with electoral politics. I had a really hard time voting. I partly because even though I've been in New York for now about 12 years, I moved a lot within the city, mostly due to financial insecurity.

And for that reason, it was really hard for me to be able to successfully vote. I would show up and just try to vote in local elections and be turned away or have to submit an affidavit ballot, whatever. Didn't even, despite trying every time, I never even successfully voted until 2017 in a city council election. So needless to say, I was as disillusioned as a lot of people rightfully are with electoral politics and with the Democratic Party, especially after, you know, I supported Bernie Sanders in 2016 and seeing how he was treated by the DNC and recognizing that he was the more viable candidate and that the party rejected him. I definitely and still now where we're seeing similar things play out in this president in this Democratic primary I don't place hope in the Democratic Party so I you know I ran as a Democrat frankly because the two-party system sort of forces us of course they're you know third parties are really important and engaging. in electoral politics, you know, as a non-affiliated voter is admirable. It's not something that I,

that I deride like some, like some in our political establishment do. But for me, you know, the more viable thing was to run as a Democrat. And I conference with Democrats in the state Senate, frankly, because it's, it's like the most strategic and practical thing to do. and naturally, even though I consider the Democratic Party to be purely capitalist as a national party holds a lot of policy stances that I disagree with, including being imperialist. You know, that's, you know, that's another thing, actually, that I didn't mention in my political development was that I studied Middle Eastern history in college and spent a lot of time in Palestine. and it, like, really radically impacted my worldview and my understanding of foreign policy.

And so that aside, I'm not fond of the Democratic Party, but I see it as, you know, in the current political climate, a way for working class people to engage in electoral politics. And I don't, you know, one thing that the tension, I think, is in my belief that the party is not going to lead us to revolution or transformative social change. I don't, you know, I don't believe that at all. I think some in the party, you know, they have a very different theory of change, you know, liberals who do see the party as like the institution that represents their political ideology. And so that's that's a big tension that I actually think we need a, we need a labor party essentially. And if electoral politics is even the mechanism that we want to focus on for social change. But yeah, the tension really is that right now I am working within this system, even as our current reality is so far from the ideal that as a as a democratic socialist the state should be a mechanism for regulation in society

for preventing us from sort of descending into barbarism and distributing resources that aren't naturally distributed equitably among people but our current reality is far from that and so that's really that's really the tension and the way that I deal with it is is by recognizing that it's it's strategic right now for me as a as a socialist um to be working with in this system to win material changes in people's lives, which I have been fortunate to see in the last year and a half that I've been the legislature. Yeah, and we'll get to that in the next question. I just do want to say just sort of backing and reiterating your point about strategically running in the Democratic Party as opposed to a third party candidacy. And that really is the most

pragmatic way to do this because there has been a bipartisan effort for many, many decades to basically make it very, very challenging, if not outright impossible for a third party to be viable in you know u.s elections broadly and that has been you know through the legal framework through laws passed and just through the sort of media infrastructure that talks about third parties in certain ways so to run on that level would be very very difficult and you wouldn't be able to get nearly as far as you as you have by doing that so i i totally agree and understand that perspective i do want to talk a little bit more about the other side of this coin which is the good things that can possibly come from pursuing a strategy like you're pursuing. So what is the best

argument for supporting insurgent left-wing candidates like yourself and the idea that having socialists on the inside can lend genuine material support to those organizations and movements who are putting pressure or organizing from outside the system? So like, another way of putting it is what would be a good argument for supporting the exact strategy you're pursuing? What do you think you can or are accomplishing by pursuing the strategy you are? Yeah, well, for one, you know, if I were not conferencing with the Democrats, which are the majority conference in the state Senate, then I really would have absolutely no voice in how policy is made at the state level.

And that's huge. People don't always recognize. I think they are now more, more than that. than ever, especially in New York since 2018, people are recognizing that state policy has a profound impact on their everyday lives. And for me to be able to influence that as a socialist, as someone who believes in transparency and accountability, who believes in empowering people who are directly impacted by issues in order to lead the solutions to those issues, someone who believes in fully investing in public housing and developing more

social housing. That's not part of the for-profit housing market in 2019, because, sure enough, you know, as we had anticipated in me running in the first place, being in the room, so to speak, being part of negotiating new rent laws was, was really meaningful for me as a socialist. But even in the way that I operate as a Democratic socialist, not because I am, you know, a unique individual, but because of the ideology I prescribed to, the way that I operate as a legislator is to seek to be led by and always constantly informed by the social movements that are working to change things. And so this Housing Justice Coalition, the statewide housing justice coalition, the Housing

Justice for All, they were really working with me constantly to make sure that the final rent laws that we would pass in 2019 and that we're still working toward to be, You know, to be clear, like, things are quite obviously far from perfect. We have way more work to do. But what we were able to achieve in 2019 was passing rent regulations that have kept thousands or hundreds of thousands of people in their homes and allowed, you know, the impact of that in turn is that working class people of color who have been organizing for social change are able to stay here. and continue that work instead of being replaced by people who don't have the class consciousness that they have and the lived experience that they have. And so that's been really meaningful for me.

I think one other, you know, example that I'll mention because of the crisis we're facing right now when we know that for low-income communities of color, we were already facing a crisis before COVID-19. But many of our issues have been exacerbated by it. And so in response, these local mutual aid networks have assembled. And they've developed locally here. And it's really this dynamic where my office, as a Democratic Socialist elected, is working with these people to deliver, you know, meals and actually build solidarity with people and empower people in a material.

way and in a meaningful way. So that's just what we've seen in the past year and a half, but, you know, I think that we can imagine even greater things. It's not the, you know, I don't see electoral politics as the only mechanism by any means of social change, but I'm seeing the real impacts that it can have. Absolutely. And like perhaps the distinction to be made here is that, you know, you are an agent of the grassroots social movements out of which you naturally arose working within the system but still

for those interests as opposed to an agent of the system or of a political machine or of the Democratic Party more broadly. And so I totally believe and agree that we need folks like you on the inside helping those movements on the outside, breaking down or weakening some of the barriers to grassroots organizing and to have somebody looking out for those same interest and having that same vision working on both sides of that particular fence. So I think what you're doing is really important work. I know that last question you talked about some of your criticism of the Democratic Party. And, you know, it's not going to be any surprise to our listeners that we all have critiques of the Democratic Party. Maybe we can dive a little deeper into that.

Many on the left are seeing increasingly the Democratic Party as not simply an insufficient vehicle for our politics, but increasingly as a primary obstacle to them. The 2016 election and certainly this last one with Biden and how Bernie was treated has really solidified that sentiment and a lot of folks on the left. So just maybe dive a little deeper in how you think about the Democratic Party, given your understanding of it from both the inside and from the outside. Yeah. You know, I think that I think that the two major parties in the U.S. are much more similar to each other than either party wants to admit. And I don't mean that in a like nice unity way.

I mean it in that both of these parties are are like bourgeois parties and agents for perpetuating capitalism and and the oppression that results from it. I do think that there are legislators, not just myself, but even at the federal level, some of my colleagues as well in the state Senate and in the Assembly who, despite being part of the Democratic Party, at least ostensibly, our existence and participation in this party as socialists or radicals or progressives is, is definitely changing the party, even if it's, if it's primarily by changing who is motivated to participate in electoral politics, that a lot of people who have supported me and become civically engaged in New York since 2018 are people

who, like me, didn't previously vote or and weren't interested in. being involved in electoral politics, right? And so I do think that that's changing the party. I think that when I envision us transitioning to a socialist society or like working toward a real revolution, I don't think it will come through the Democratic Party. But I do think that in the interim and in the process leading there, it is meaningful to have a party, even if it's at, you know, a little. local level, state level, whatever, that is more representative of the working class, right?

And so campaigns like mine, like Bernie Sanders, that bring in more working class people and people who have been marginalized, that's where I see the power and the meaning of even participating in electoral politics. You know, if I also think the ideal, there are places, other places in the country. Like, I really am inspired by Shama Swant in Seattle. You know, she's been able to, she is not, you know, involved in the Democratic Party and the way that their elections are, the way that their legislature and their council really is, is established. there are um it's more practical for it it's like it allows for a socialist to just run as a socialist and i i do think that that's ideal so i i don't know if that really answers your question but

basically i i think like i don't put a lot of hope in the democratic party as as a means for for social change in and of itself for sure absolutely and you know i think the the presence of you and other socialists or, you know, left-wing progressives, etc., acts as a sort of critique of the party sort of inherently in that your presence in the party and what our presence generally outside of it, putting pressure on it, sort of heightens the contradictions inherent in the Democratic Party.

This party that pretends to be for the oppressed and the working class, but has a donor base that it ultimately answers to and has this such a big tent that you have regular, you know, poor people of color in it, you know, ostensibly, and you have multimillionaires or billionaires in Silicon Valley in that party. And in such a political formation, especially coming from a critique of class society, is not tenable. So just having, you know, critics of the Democratic Party, using it just as a strategic vehicle in the here and now,

but having a vision by which the Democratic Party is either radically changed or discarded altogether, I think, you know, contributes to heightening that. contradiction and exposing the party for just, you know, what it is. So I think there's something to be said about that. Let's move on and talk about this pandemic a little bit because this recent pandemic has really exposed the U.S. government and the ruling class who controls it as incompetent, indifferent to human suffering, fanatical in its adherence to the neoliberal market paradigm, and unwilling to change in the face of crisis after crisis. So how do you think about the U.S. state and its reaction to this pandemic?

right now? And where do you think things are sort of headed over the next decade or two with regards to the legitimacy of the state generally? Yeah. Gosh, I think that people are increasingly disillusioned with how the state has acted, mostly at the federal level, but we're also seeing it in New York, people recognizing even in just the short time since we've been collectively facing this crisis. in New York, I'm seeing people, my colleagues included, who previously were either lukewarm or like indifferent, maybe even like oppositional to the idea of taxing the rich and of redistributing wealth that we so desperately need to do in New York state or the state

with the highest number of billionaires, I think, of any state in the country. And they're just, you know, we have a totally inequitable tax system and a governor who has been committed to austerity throughout his entire tenure. And a lot of the problems that we're seeing right now, such as, you know, people waiting, there are people who applied day one of this crisis back in early March for unemployment who are still waiting to receive benefits. And that's because the Department of Labor has been defunded. right and the agencies that are supposed to provide these essential services and supports to people have been have been deprioritized and meanwhile we've been as a state prioritizing giving tax breaks to the very wealthy and like corporate welfare instead but anyway what I'm saying is that since this crisis began I'm seeing colleagues and people who who didn't see things this way before

speaking out and saying, no, we really do need this. So I think it's radicalizing some people. And I don't, you know, I do want to be very careful not to minimize the harm that's been done. We've lost almost 5,000 people in Brooklyn alone, similarly in Queens to coronavirus. Like people are dying and we're really, you know, it's bleak. But we are surrounded by death and destruction right now in New York. We hear ambulances all day. Everyone knows someone who's been impacted by this.

And so I don't mean to just say, like, oh, this crisis is useful for our, you know, political project because it's devastating. At the same time, regardless, it is exposing these contradictions and it's radicalizing people. And we have a choice. We either can try to pretend that things were okay before and sort of. you know, just try to go back to business as usual, or we can use this opportunity to fundamentally change and to become a more, a more just and small de-democratic, like, you know, socialist, equitable society instead. And in order to make sure that this death and destruction, this barbarism really, you know, does not continue. No, yeah. I mean, I'd certainly agree with.

and echo your sentiments. And we see right now the U.S. ruling class in the form of Donald Trump on the Republican side and Joe Biden on the Democratic side, sort of shifting towards a blame China strategy. Joe Biden came out with an ad recently talking about how Trump is not hard enough on China. And meanwhile, you know, Trump to distract from his own utter failures on every single level when it comes to preparing for this pandemic and managing it and helping people through it is obviously going for a hard strategy. of xenophobia and pointing to China as the problem, which of course creates blowback in the form of just everyday racism on the streets of places like New York City against really any Asian American at all. So we're really seeing the ruling class in the face of its own incompetence

and inability to meet the challenge turn to racialize scapegoating, which is a classic sort of move that the U.S. government does. So I'm not exactly sure where things are headed, but that's certainly worth thinking about and critiquing, especially when you see Democrats running ads, talking about Trump not being hard enough on China. It's just completely, you know, it makes me incredulous to think about that stuff. But then also just viewing this pandemic as a dress rehearsal for future pandemics, but also of the climate crisis generally. This really is a huge warning sign. Like, get your shit together or the crises coming in the next decades will absolutely flatten your society, deepen the already existing riffs, etc.

So I don't know. There's a lot going on here, and I'm not exactly sure how this will all play out, but it absolutely, a return to normal is impossible. An attempt to do it will just recreate the very conditions that gave rise to the crisis in the first place. And we're talking 80,000 dead Americans. That's more than the Vietnam War and several 9-11s combined. And I don't think a lot of Americans, especially on the right in the sort of Trump cult, really think about it in those terms, and they're downplaying the,

devastation this is causing. And of course, it's because it's often hitting poor communities, communities of color, communities that suburbanite white reactionaries aren't necessarily living in and having to deal with. So I don't know. There's just a lot going on overall. Yeah. No, it's spot on. So I know earlier we touched on anti-imperialism. And a huge focus for the, for the principled left is anti-imperialism. And it seems to be a bipartisan reality that regardless of which party is in power, the bombs never stopped dropping, the crippling sanction. never ease up and the blood never stops being spilled. Even in a global pandemic, the U.S. is doubling down on its sanctions,

sort of de facto outsourcing its coup attempts to these weird private firms, and like I said, blaming racialized scapegoats, particularly China and Asian people broadly, for the U.S.'s failures. So, I mean, I guess just sort of dive deeper on your thoughts on anti-imperialism, what role it should play in our movement, regardless of what strategy we're pursuing and sort of what can be done from within or without the system to effectively combat it, because it seems at times that there's no vehicle at all for a real robust anti-imperialist politics. Yeah, I mean, I think about this sort of in the context of political education.

And I think the reason that I go there first is because even as the U.S., like U.S. foreign policy is basically purely imperialist, and even so, And even as we are in well over, you know, 100 countries around the world by we, I mean the U.S. military and the violence that our military is perpetuated, even so most Americans are totally unaffected by it, at least not in any conscious way. And so I, you know, my mind goes to political education because I think it's the most compelling way. for Americans and, you know, American voters and people who participate in politics here to become involved in resisting it, right? We need to learn and to be teaching others as socialists, as Marxists, you know, sharing with fellow working class people in the U.S. about all of society and not just our class struggles here, but about the impact that our capitalist government is having on other parts

of the world. And so I guess I see the first step, or at least the basis for us changing U.S. foreign policy as political education. But then in turn, you know, budgets the way that we use our resources is always about priorities. And as we build political consciousness and do that rigorous education, the goal should be for us to divest from violence, to divest from the military industrial complex, because that's, of course, you know, the machine that really drives U.S. foreign policy and imperialism around the world. I mean, it's easier. It's obviously easier said than done.

and it's not something that I'm as focused on as a state senator and a local politician, but I think it is nonetheless extremely important, just as important as the work we're doing in Brooklyn. Definitely. And to your point about political education, which I completely agree with, that has to be the starting point. One interesting thing that I think about with regards to that is the distinction between like militarism and forever wars versus imperialism. There's like a liberal critique of American imperialism that doesn't understand it as imperialism that sees it as, you know, America trying to be the cop of the world or, you know, just these, the military industrial complex, just needing a profit motive or whatever. And there's, that's partially true. But to reframe it as not just a question of militarism, but a question of imperialism and explaining how imperialism is a natural outgrowth of capitalism and colonialism, I think can do a lot in shifting people's perspective as like, Like, you know, we're in Afghanistan and Iraq and all these other countries and helping Saudi Arabia destroy Yemen, not because we want to be the cop of the world or whatever, or not because simply because of forever wars or an ingrained ideology about going and being spreading democracy around the world. But precisely because it is a mechanism by which we dominate other countries, their political systems, their economic systems, and extract wealth and resources to funnel to the global north.

And, you know, laying that out and helping people understand that, I think is a first step and a main pillar in what I agree with your point about political education. So take that for what it's worth. And I know that was a huge question, but I appreciate you giving me your response. Because I do think when we have people on the socialist left, whether you're inside or outside of the system, a focus on imperialism and combating it needs to at least be put forward when our critiques of the overall capitalist system come into play. yeah absolutely i agree so one more question and then we'll get to a book recommendation and we'll let you we'll let you go we're very appreciative of your time um basically what is your general vision for a socialist future it's it's easy to to critique the world and the left is great at critiquing but sometimes we we don't always offer a productive and positive vision of what a future could look like which i think is important when we're trying to bring people over to our side so just generally what's your vision of a socialist future and quote quoting someone for whom I think we both have a lot of respect, what is to be done in order

to move meaningfully in that direction? Yeah, Lenin, who recently had a birthday, rest in power. Well, you know, it's actually interesting that you cite what is to be done because, you know, at least from what I remember in my understanding of it, Lenin was really making the case that that workers are not just going to naturally become Marxist. Not, you know, maybe some of them, but, but in general, the working class is not just going to become Marxist or socialist just by, you know, through class war with their bosses, right? Marxists, those of us who, who, I'll say socialist, right, really need to form a party or maybe not a political party in the U.S. sense because our political parties are uniquely bad. But we need to form, I'll say, a movement that drives political education and ideas and pairs that with, you know, organizing around,

class struggle and for material changes in people's lives. And to me, it's twofold. Like, basically, it's about using the campaigns, not just electoral campaigns, which should, you know, as socialist, any electoral work we do, the only value in it comes from educating and strengthening and organizing the working class around these ideas. issues and at the same time seeking to win material changes in people's lives because if people can't afford to eat if they you know if they can't afford to continue to stay in Brooklyn and they're just going to be replaced by people who who aren't working class right who don't have any stakes in changing the system and resisting capitalism,

then we're not going to be able to build a movement that is driven by, you know, the underclass and the working class. I think that is, you know, I'm speaking kind of like at the macro level here, but the way to change anything, whether it is to, fight for climate justice by divest, you know, pushing your local government or institutions to divest from the fossil fuel industry, right? That's like, that is a campaign to movement that will only succeed and that, or at least is only worth doing if it is led by indigenous people, by people of color, by people who have been, who have really beared the brunt of

climate change, right? And, you know, so-called environmental justice, communities. And in turn, like, at a macro level, it really is why we believe that our social movements need to be led by people of color, by the working class who have been, who have bared the brunt of, of the harms of capitalism. It is because we're so far from, in my opinion, and I wish this weren't true, but because I think we're so far from like an ideal revolution right now, I have, I think the only realistic way for me to talk about it is in these macro terms, but that is like the way that I see the change happening. I also think, you know, all politics are local. We, it begins at, at the level of, you know, forming a community

land trust so that, you know, people have collective ownership over, over their property, and their destiny, right? And then it expands to these national level movements like that of the Bernie Sanders campaign, you know? Yeah, no, I second that. I think that I think we can take some inspiration from a movement in the past, like the Black Panther Party. You had a situation in which they strategically ran for local offices. They didn't obviously always get them, but there was an attempt to run in campaigns under the Black Panther Party leadership, to expand people's political imagination, get their ideas out into the community, et cetera. But as they were doing that,

they're also organizing social movements. They're serving the people through their breakfast programs. They have volunteer health clinics to make sure people that don't have enough money to get health care can have treatment anyway in their own communities. And then they also had more militant formations, underground formations, like the Black Liberation Army. So on every level, the Black Panther Party

at least gestures toward what we mean when we say a socialist party in the sense that it's not just an electoral American sense party, but formation that we can fight on these different levels in a cohesive, coherent, focused way. And then I also want to reiterate your point about colonized people, sort of being the most

intrinsically revolutionary, having the most to gain from revolutionary changes to this system. And sometimes, you know, well-off white folks, you know, even if they have ostensibly radical politics, they also are sometimes undermined by their own inherent chauvinism,

the fact that they are a little more well-off, financially. A lot of people, you know, tend to have safety nets in their own personal lives, you know, families that have generational wealth they can fall back on, et cetera, that often leads to a sort of blunting of the revolutionary edge there. So on all those points, I think I agree and just want to reiterate your general vision because it's impossible to predict where things are going to go, but we certainly need more organization and organization operating in all these different levels, I think, to be effective. And one level is to have people at least running in campaigns to expand people's political imagination and have some allies on the inside,

kicking down doors and dismantling legal barriers for that more grassroots energy to burst through. So yeah, I really appreciate your answer there. Thank you so much, Julia, for coming on. This has been a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate all the work you're doing, and I really loved hearing your point of view on all of these questions. And I know I threw a lot of questions at you. But before I let you go, are there any possible readings that you're, I know it's kind of busy, but also we're in quarantine. So are you reading any interesting books at the moment or do you maybe have a recommendation that you've read before for our listeners to pick up that you found particularly inspiring? So yeah, as far as what I'm reading

right now, not sure how much it'll appeal listeners, but I'm reading a novel called The Idiot, not the Steyevsky one, but but by Aleph Botumen that my friend Sophia gave me. it's it's just like a really clever novel not anything i guess particularly like revolutionary but uh i also have recently been reading um micha utrecht and and megan day's book um it's called bigger than bernie uh and it's really about lessons learned as socialist from from the sanders campaign um and and definitely definitely recommend it to to folks whether they whether they um identify i guess as as a democratic socialist or not, it's really, it's accessible, but also, I think, like, really compelling and insightful talking about the relationship between the movement, in social

movements, and electoral politics. Wonderful. I'll definitely have to check that out. Well, yeah, thank you so much. I'll let you go. Get on with your day, but I really appreciate you coming on Rev. Left. And, yeah, keep up the great work. We stand with you, and we really appreciate everything you're doing to help your community. Thank you so much, Brett. It's been a pleasure and keep up the great work. Stay safe.

Yeah, you too. Can I sit next to you? Can you sit next to me? Get the stars at your eyes. Come and bring them to me. I bet that's so long. all look down yet it's just it

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I know you would all the kicks from my sticks All the kicks are renewed I put all that side Concentrate on you All the kicks from the sticks All the hits are we'll turn All the stitches we got

All our brains so could Oh Someday I'm gonna get Where you're I Then dance along Then dance along Then dab allow

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