Rev Left Radio - Springs of Revolution: The Revolutionary Left of the DSA Struggles to Shape the Organization

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

In this episode, Breht sits down with Ahmed and Luisa - two members of the Democratic Socialists of America’s National Political Committee and leaders within the Springs of Revolution Platform. With the August 2025 DSA Convention approaching, this episode dives into the growing struggle between the organization’s revolutionary left and its more moderate, staff-driven tendencies. Representing a strategic coalition of rank-and-file organizers from across the country -including Red Star, Liberation Caucus, MUG, and Emerge - Springs of Revolution is fighting to remake DSA into a bottom-up, anti-imperialist, and internationally rooted revolutionary organization. From prioritizing local chapters and doubling their funding, to instituting anti-Zionist political commitments and unified electoral strategies, their platform directly challenges the right-wing of the organization and sets out a more radical vision for this evolving organization. We discuss what it means to build DSA into a revolutionary mass force, why Palestine is the “moral compass” of the left, the material lessons of recent uprisings like the George Floyd rebellion and Pro-Palestine Campus Uprisings, and how deep organizing is key to seizing future ruptures. If you’re a delegate heading into convention, a DSA member on the fence, or an outsider wondering what the internal political battles of the U.S. left really look like, this episode is essential listening. Learn more about the platform here: https://sordsa.org/ ---------------------------------------------------- Support Rev Left and get access to bonus episodes: www.patreon.com/revleftradio Make a one-time donation to Rev Left at BuyMeACoffee.com/revleftradio Follow, Subscribe, & Learn more about Rev Left Radio: https://revleftradio.com/ Outro Beat Prod. by flip da hood

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. Okay, on today's episode, I have on Ahmed Hussein and Louisa Martinez from the DSA to talk about basically not only the political situation more broadly, Palestine, mass deportations, we touch on all of that, but also in a sort of in the internal dynamics of DSA and their spring of revolution. platform that they are advancing in this August's DSA convention happening next month. They're coming on to talk a little bit about that platform and their attempts to improve the DSA, increase its sort of anti-imperialism and the principled politics on that front, oriented towards the current ongoing brutal ICE mass deportation raids and the Palestine issue, find ways of making the DSA more of a bottom-up organization instead of a top-down organization

and to push an anti-imperialist and internationalist politic to the forefront and center of the DSA as a national organization and to do so they have formed a coalition of left caucuses in the DSA to fight for this new platform and so we talk about some of the weaknesses of the DSA the fact that the DSA is in a constant state of evolution and how people can get involved and help push it in the proper direction that we would like to see the largest socialist organization in the United States be, which is more internationalist, more principled, more anti-imperialist, more anti-colonialist, more pro-Palestine, without any reservations, et cetera.

So I think this is a really important fight within the DSA, not just within the DSA, but within the broader socialist movement in the country. And we also, of course, in the process of discussing that those things we touch on major political issues happening now. And they, you know, at parts of this episode it gets downright inspiring. These are two organizers born in the different countries, born in the global south. They're informed by that. They've organized in many different contexts and around many different issues over time. And so not only do they have this specific fight that they want to bring attention to, but they have a lot of wisdom and experience in the socialist, internationalist movement that we can all learn from and gain a lot of insight from.

So I'm really excited to present this conversation to all of you today. And if you're in DSA, I think this is incredibly important to listen to. And if you're outside of DSA, I also think it's very important to listen to if you're interested at all in bolstering the socialist movement in the United States. DSA is absolutely a crucial part of that broader socialist ecosystem. And as I say at the end, and as they, you know, kind of allude to, it is much easier to sit on the sidelines and sit on social media all day, not doing anything, not organizing anything, and launching theoretical critiques at different organizations that don't 100% align with your ideology. It's a much different and more productive thing to get involved and make those organizations better. And that's not even to say that you need to get involved in DSA specifically, but to get involved in organizing and instead of launching critiques from the sidelines, put in the work as best you can in your community to make organizing more efficient and better and more principled in whatever ways you can. And for many comrades that I've known personally, they've decided that the best route for them to do that is to enter the DSA and push it in a more principled direction as much as they can.

and I find that an incredibly honorable and worthwhile thing to do. This is an organization that is in motion, right? This is not the same organization it was 10 years ago, certainly not the same organization it was 20 years ago. And the organization it will be in four, five, six years from now is going to be wholly dependent on the comrades who are fighting within it to make it the sort of organization that we would like to see become the predominant organization in the United States.

you know struggle within struggle without but organize and struggle and that's exactly what these comrades are doing um and also of course if you like what we do here at rev left radio you can support us directly on patreon patreon patreon.com forward slash rev left radio you get access to bonus monthly episodes a back catalog of bonus patreon exclusives that are i think hundreds and hundreds at this point as well as a new rev left situation room where whenever big news breaks around the world or domestically. We have a big Zoom call with our patrons where we all kind of work through

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But of course, if you're going through tough times, you don't have the money, totally understand. You can share these episodes. You can leave positive reviews on those things help as well. All right. Without further ado, here's my discussion with Ahmed and Louisa on springs of revolution, the DSA, immigration, mass deportations, Palestine as the moral compass of the socialist left, and so much more. Enjoy.

My name is Ahmed Hussain. I serve on DSA's National Political Committee, and I've been organizing in the U.S. since I immigrated here about over a decade ago. I'm currently based in New York, but I've also organized in Colorado. I'm just a regular engineer my day job, but at night I do a lot of organizing. Primarily in the Palestine movement, it is the thing that connects me most to my organizing back home. I used to organize in the Arab Spring before I came to America, and this is really the salient issue. advance both the fight back home and the fight here. I think it's really where everything comes together. Defeating support for Designist entity here is really what allows people back home

to fight for liberation. This is how we can help on our front. They will always be able to fight there, but we can do our part to help the fight from here. My name is Louisa Martinez. I am also serve on the MPC with Ahmed. For those of you who don't know what the MPC is, it's kind of like the executive board of DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America.

I have been an activist for 15 years. I've lived in two states Florida, where I was actually undocumented for 16 years. And I currently live in the Pacific Northwest and am part of the Portland, Oregon chapter.

And my organizing background It has been in immigrant justice, labor. I'm a full-time labor, a full-time union organizer. I've organized many strikes. And, of course, international solidarity movements, both with respect to anti-imperalists and but also solidarity movements with other socialist movements and parties around the world. Wonderful. Well, it's an honor and a pleasure to have both of you on today.

And we're going to focus on this, what we'll talk about very quickly, the Springs of Revolution platform within the DSA. There'll be some people that are listening to this that will be familiar with the internal dynamics of the DSA, some less so, but it'll be accessible to people across the board here. And then we'll also talk about other things like Palestine, like the mass deportation situation that we're facing, lessons from the global south, et cetera, as we go throughout this conversation. But the focal point is the Springs of Revolution platform and the sort of, I believe it's a conference coming up in August where this is going to be. be advanced and I think we could start there. So what is the springs of revolution platform and why are you advancing it at this moment? The springs of revolution platform came together pretty organically. A few of us, many of us who have been organizing together in DSA for years, just

kind of coalesced into this body. And, you know, a lot of our organizing intersects very heavily and where they intersect is where we're trying to intervene in DSA. You know, with Palestine organizing in DSA. You know, there's a long history. It used to be kind of an after thought, a third rail issue, and we fought to make it a priority. Similarly, with immigrant justice, you know, when the Muslim ban first happened in 2017, DSA didn't really respond. Similarly, you know, if like George Floyd uprising happen, we were organizing on the ground in our chapters. All of us are chapter leaders and, you know, we really oriented towards our community. What are the needs of our community? What are people asking us to do? So, you know,

we fight with abolitionist organizations and we do a lot of abolitionist organizing on the ground. But, you know, time and time again, DSA nationally is, you know, it's a collection of tendencies and chapters, and it hasn't always been prioritized. Anti-imperialist organizing hasn't always been prioritized, nor has been the abolitionist organizing or immigrant organizing that we've been doing. So what the platform really puts forward is these two big campaigns, one an abolish ICE campaign that serves to build chapters into humble, willing partners to local coalitions working in this fight against ICE, and also to endorse and organize multiple long-term BDS initiatives. really like the thing the platform tries to get at is we don't really want a DSA that's top down and telling chapters what to do. We think the best organizing, the most consistent organizing, the thing that really changes America and its left is this very bottom up approach where we organize our coworkers, our neighbors, talk to people in our neighborhoods, and fight for the thing. they care about. There are these key issues that matter for different communities,

and we should really make them a priority in our fight nationally. So we are reorienting DSA to be more bottom-up. We're giving more resources to the chapters. We're doubling douche. And we are establishing these basemanum standards that are binding to all chapters to say, hey across all of our most visible projects these are the lines we go across

like this is our national agreement now these are our lines that we stick by other than that here's more resources fight for the communities root in those communities and fight with the people because that's what's going to really

change the conditions we're in you know we got to activate more people we've got to get people more angry we got to get people fighting for their own lives. So that was the motivation for it. What we landed on was five resolutions, to establish these two big campaigns

for abolish ICE and Palestine organizing and establish some standards, electoral standards around BDS. And then the rest are really reforming how DSA works internally. So we can be more bottom up. So we can be this national body, national organization that can coordinate across chapters, chapter to chapter, and have these experiments when they go well, be transmitted across the country, across all of our chapters. We want to start talking in more of a single voice, you know, as one BSA, rather than, you know, 200 different chapters.

Lillisa, do you have anything to add? Yeah, I would just add, you know, kind of in summary, that the point. platform for sense of vision for the organization that's grounded in the struggle for liberation of Palestine, of course, but also, you more broadly the struggle for, of colonized people to reject racial capitalism domestically and abroad. That's why we mentioned abolishing ICE and the abolitionist movement, abolitionist movement, and why we are so deeply committed to these things and that we don't really have the luxury anymore of ignoring these movements. And I think that's part of, you know, such a weak U.S. left is part of what's, you know, led to the current genocide, right?

That's happening in Palestine. We don't have that luxury anymore. We can't ignore these anymore. And so bringing these issues to the forefront and making sure that people understand it, these are domestic issues as well. Again, we don't have the luxury of ignoring them. That was really the heart of this. Yeah, I think it's really important. It basically represents a struggle within the DSA to make it more bottom up, more revolutionary, more anti-imperiod.

And these are all, I think, necessary and incredibly important things to do within DSA to make the still largest socialist organization in the United States, you know, more principled in a bunch of different ways. And in order to advance this springs of revolution platform, you've formed a coalition with other, I believe they're caucuses within the DSA. And that's one of the things that I've always found interesting about the DSA is they do have these, you know, caucuses within the DSA that represent basically different tendencies. I think is good for a mass organization to create room for and allow sort of line struggles between. So can you talk about this coalition that you're in with groups like Red Star, Liberation Caucus, who, you know, Black Redguard, who's been on the show several times as a part of, Mug and Emerge and others like that? What is your collective strategic orientation toward the right wing of the DSA? Like, how do you understand the nature of that internal contradiction within the broader order? organization between your coalition and the right wing of the DSA? And then also what kinds of

like internal disagreements might you have to navigate within this coalition? I know you have some basic points of unity, but I was wondering if there is any points of tension as well. So like I said, Springs of Revolution, the core team came together pretty organically. And it is cross tendency. We have people across all of what, you know, people know as the left caucuses of the ESA represented. Because really what we've been doing is holding the line on Palestine and anti-imperials organizing. It's not really the focus of many of the other left caucuses. So internally, that work fell to us across tendencies. But it's also been a useful body, right? You said, you know, there's caucuses, they advance certain visions, but the synthesis part

has always been difficult. When people are working, in caucuses. They're a bit siloed. The internal discussion doesn't really interface with an external discussion in a fluid way or in a kind of full form way. So internally to us, we help synthesize the points of disagreement and the points of agreement and bring people together. And really, that's our work over the last two years, me and Louisa. We've done a lot of work to keep together what is traditionally known as the left block and make sure anti-imperialist politics and Palestine does not get sidelined again, does not get third railed again within the organization. So, you know, I think DSA is in a good position right now with all of the

caucuses represented. We've been having some of the more productive political discussions and conflict in recent years, you know, it hasn't been as destructive as previous conflicts. And, you know, as it relates to the writing of DSA, we still share an organization. We still work together. Not everything is contentious, you know. I think a lot of people in DSA view DSA as a marriage of circumstance across. Multiple left tendencies. I think there's an element of truth there. You know, I think separately we cannot really,

the U.S. left is still too weak. It is still too small to really contend on its own. And we need to grow up fast. And it's better to pull together in an internal coalition, just as we emphasize external coalition building. internal coalition building is extremely important. So where there are points of unity across left tendencies, where they are to help synthesize them,

but also where there are shared visions with what's traditionally center tendencies or right tendencies, we've always been willing to work together. I think people forget that in the conflict. Things get very heated and people take things personally. But at the end of the day, these are political arguments, political disagreements, and we're trying to advance a political organization so we can win a political vision. So, of course, there's going to be political conflict. Louisa is a much more adept at negotiations than me. So I'll leave Louisa to explain more.

Well, I don't think that's true. I actually think you're much by right. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting you bring up caucuses. you know a couple things for one part of what we agree on right is that we need to have some way to hold endorsed politicians accountable right we need to have some standards let's have some standards you guys and i think people are pretty on board with that particularly when it comes to palisine because again it's not anything that we can ignore anymore i remember reading once i don't know if it was on a twitter on a slack or something like that but in in dsa we don't

discipline politicians uh politicians discipline us And I think it's been very much the case for many years in DSA, you know, there are comrades in our organization that feel like, you know, we should play a more supporting role, right, for electives, that that's kind of our job. And there's, you know, other side of membership of comrades who feel that we should have some sort of accountability, right, once we've endorsed these people. And so, you know, the pushback sometimes we feel is that, you know, DSA, for one thing, needs to be a stronger force when it comes to lobbying and just the role in the lives of these elected politicians. And so that's why, you know, it's so important to invest in our local chapters to help them build the infrastructure so that we can support politicians, right, when they choose to be brave, right? And they choose to make unpopular decisions or they vote against things that they know. that they're going to get shit for from right-wing lobbying groups. Part of all of that was part of the thinking here.

You know, it's not just about discipline. It's building the organization so that we can have a class of elected that can, you know, be brave, right? That's the whole point. Another thing I just want to say about caucuses. So, you know, there's a lot of, I think there's broad support for Morena, the, you know, Mexico's party, the party of Quaterte, of the Four Transpination of Amlo or Seimbabom. And what's funny is that they outrout banned caucuses.

So I think we can have, you know, I think it's fun to have kind of a conversation about the role of caucuses. I think traditionally, like, it makes sense to have like a black caucus or a women's caucus for obvious reasons. I think perhaps with tendencies that's a little bit different. These tendencies are always going to exist within an organization. The question is whether or not you want to recognize them, right? to what extent do we, do we tacitly, you know,

endorse these kinds of things happening. I actually am anti, I'm part of a caucus myself. I have helped started one, but it was really out of political necessity, honestly. And that at the end of the day, like I said, I think we could have a debate about the role of caucuses within an organization. Personally, I feel like they enshrine these old,

crusty kind of fights, kind of what Ahmed was alluding to. It's like people are still holding on to, things from like some caucus fight that happened five or six years ago or whatever. And so I think that Morena was able to see that, you know, caucus is really just enshrine bad leadership and these fights that never seemed to die. That's my personal opinion. But, you know, I understand people disagree with me. Yeah, no, I want to follow up on that. I think that's really interesting. I think, you know, the DSA has gone through an evolutionary process over the last 10 to 20 years. years, especially post-2016. And the DSA, before that, you know, was more maybe conservative,

was maybe less dynamic. It was older for sure. I remember getting involved in the DSA in my early 20s ended being, you know, it was an older organization. It hadn't had this infusion of young socialists like we've seen post-2016. And so perhaps the development of the caucuses were and are a necessary part of this developmental process that at some point in the organization's evolution, it can kind of do what

Moreno does and move away from caucuses altogether. I mean, you know, in the Marxist idea of democratic centralism moving towards higher structures, but that might come at a point in time as the organization as a whole develops and

rises to the challenge more and more. And so perhaps caucuses are just this aspect of an organization that's still evolving and that, you know, at some point it can leave it behind. What do you think of, what do you think about that idea? Well, Burslam, like I said, if it were up to me, we would not have caucuses in the organization. But there was a friend of mine who made a point. I was a friend of mine who lives in Chile. And so they asked like, how, you know, how long have you guys had like, for instance, like coaches, national coaches. I was like, well, two years. Like, okay, then how long have you guys?

had, you know, membership more than like 10,000 people. And I said, well, I guess Bernie, he's like, okay, well, then you guys have really only been an organization for a couple of years, like a real organization, a real member, you know, member led within the, you know, having these kinds of fights with real elected leadership, you know, they co-chairs, part of them serve as kind of the voices of the organization. And so by those standards, we're actually very, very new, right? with respect to political parties around the world, we're just born yesterday. But, you know, those are things that you have to keep in mind,

that DSA is still very, very young. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I want to see it continue to grow and develop because I do think it is incredibly promising and seeing, you know, really good organizers and comrades, principled comrades that I know, join DSA and try to make it better has been one of the, I think, the better

developments of the past 10 or so years on the American left. I do want to follow up one more thing on the electoral front. And one thing I do respect about the DSA is that they take the struggle of the electoral terrain seriously. It is not something to merely be dismissed. It is the terrain for better or worse through which the majority of Americans engage with national politics. And so if socialists want to be taken seriously as a national force, we're going to

to have to battle on the electoral terrain, but with that does come one of the core weaknesses of the DSA, which I know you're trying to address, which is this wishy-washy candidate endorsement where a candidate like an AOC could run as a member of the DSA, and then there's no mechanism by which to hold them accountable going forward. And to the extent that they still claim the title of a DSA or of a Democratic socialist can sometimes do harm. harm to the, you know, to the organization itself where they're taking these really unpopular, certainly not socialist, certainly not anti-imperialist votes and people are associating that with the DSA.

And I know one DSA proposes a unified electoral endorsement process. And Louisa, you were just talking about advancing standards that, you know, electives would have to abide by in order to stay in good, in the good graces. of the organization as a whole. So I'm really interested in your thoughts on that and how this platform and the broader movement behind it are kind of pushing in this direction. And do you agree with me that that is a problem that the DSA has faced over the last several years? Yeah. I mean, absolutely. This is a central conflict that we need to address. We've needed to address it for years. You know, the electoral project itself, many different people in DSA have many

different ideas about. To us, it's a tactic. The things that agitate people, that expand their political imagination, differ from person to person, you know? Like, I think the George Floyd uprising opened a lot of people's eyes to what's really happening in America, the role of policing in America. And it activated people for the first time in their lives. The Palestine struggle in 2021 and in starting in 2023 really brought millions of people into the struggle were now activated organizers. And, you know, DSA historically, its biggest agitation points that has led people to expand their political imagination was the Bernie 2016 and 2020 runs. It was AOC winning. It's now Zohran winning, you know. These are all moments where people feel like,

they can change the trajectory of the future. Now, can they through the electoral arm of the government actually do that? That's a different debate. But does it activate people? Does it bring people into the struggle? Yes. So for us, it's like a tactic amongst many that we have to employ to, like, bring people into the fight. That said, we do think members are asking.

people are asking the organization to take hard stances. They want to know what the DSA endorsed elected stands for. What are the lines they won't back away from? People are very angry. They're not really willing to accept a Wichu-a-Shi candidate anymore. They're not really willing to accept Wichu-A-A-indorced elected. If you are going to carry the DSA name, there is a very large current of membership, a likely a majority of membership that wants these hard standards set. So when somebody goes out there and says, I'm a DSA candidate, people know what we stand for and what the things are that we'll fight for and not back away from.

So, you know, it's an ongoing conversation even today with the AOC comments. DSA nationally revoked her endorsement last year over her inability to abide by standards for Palestine, yet the local chapter of New York City DSA retained its endorsement. And everyone else outside of the organizations like, wait, what does that even mean? And the distinction really only matters to DSA members to everyone else. It kind of, it's really, it's not a real difference. So we're trying to resolve that contradiction. We think, you know, we need a mechanism, an accountability mechanism, chapter to chapter, national to chapter, on how to address these questions. And right now there isn't one. So that's what one DSA is trying to do. It elevates what a local

endorsement is. You know, we have 200 plus chapters. Some of these, you know, are not in big cities like New York. They are in Tennessee. They are in Omaha. They are in Oklahoma. And their races do not get much attention, but there are real socialist running for public office in those cities and states that we need to support. And it would benefit the overall project for those to be nationally endorsed candidates that we can talk about, that we can share and have a unified standard on which we push these candidates. In my own personal kind of evolution, as a as a socialist and a Marxist Lenin is that, you know, I wasn't ever particularly interested in, in electoralism,

at least not in the beginning. Part of it was me, you know, in my role as a union organizer and seeing the union's relationship to electeds and kind of being sick of it. And so I said, well, you know, I devote practically all my free time to DSA. And I, that's not really anything that interests me, right? But I understand now, of course, I was actually going to, Venezuela that in electoral politics absolutely can be a site for a working class political struggle. It's just not the only thing, right? So that's what makes the SA so successful is that,

you know, you have a lot of comrades who that's what their interest is, right? And they're devoted to that. But that's not all, right? We do, you know, queer liberation. There's millions of labor struggles. You know, we do do immigrant justice, particularly. now, right? That's certainly been revived in the last couple of months. And so we're not, the trick is, of course, not only being just basically a free labor source for elected politicians that, you know, maybe talk a good game in the beginning, but then when Bush comes to shove, they, you know, they do sometimes make decisions that membership does not agree with, right? And so, of course, that's the internal struggle. How do we deal with us, right? And so that's what the platform helps present. an answer to him. Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully it also builds out the future capacity to, I mean, you've, you've retracted an endorsement, but yeah, it's like perhaps recall candidates at some point or just to abandon them totally. Like, this is not what it is. And I think it's important because on the national stage, when you're presenting a socialist politic, we have to be very clear on just found on fundamentals. We can disagree on on details. And trust me, socialists do. But to have a candidate that's saying, we are from the DSA. That means we are socialists. You know, there are some minimal standards that is important that we convey to the rest of the country and the rest of the world.

Like, we stand for this and we stand against Zionism. We stand, you know, 100% against the military industrial complex, against colonialism and imperialism. And that is the basis of any functional internationalism, which is the, you know, foreign policy outlook, if you will, of socialism, proletarian internationalism. So I think it's really important, and I want to see that process within the DSA, you know, make headway and really, really, you know, happen. So a salute to you and all the comrades working on just that. I think it really is a core issue, the DSA has to solve, and as you've made very clear, is actively aware of and trying to solve. I do want to talk about Palestine a little bit. You've described Palestine as the moral compass of the socialist movement, and I could not agree more.

And in fact, the most recent, you know, AOC policy controversy was around, you know, supporting more funding to the Iron Dome, which is one of the main things that can protect Israel from any sort of backlash so that it can carry out not only the genocide in Palestine, but the belligerence, it's broader belligerence throughout the region. So what does that mean in practice for the DSA? How is the Springs of Revolution kind of trying to? to advance this idea? And what obligations would an anti-Zionist resolution place on perhaps candidates, chapters, and members in your vision of it? So how sign is the moral compass of the world of all liberation movements? Because it's really the forefront of imperialism, the battle against imperialism. And we do not have the luxury of sitting this out since we are in the belly of the peace. So Palestine really strips away all pretences about what America is and what the fight is here. When you're fighting against the police, you know, the police train with

Israel. The NYPD has a police station over in Israel and a lot of the tactics we fight against here with the police when they are corraling people in the streets are trained from the IDF. When you are looking at who controls spending locally in local governments, you have economic boards in New York pushing investment into Israel. You have some in New Jersey that's set up just to facilitate investment in Israel. And You know, when people here ask the question, why is my money going to Israel? Why are all of these politicians lining up to send our tax dollars over there or to invest over there? There really is no good answers. It's just imperialism. And I think that's really what it forces people to confront. America is not just a country isolated from the world. America is an empire. And Israel, it's the forward most colonial outpost. It needs to keep down the rest of the world to extract resources from the rest of the world

for there to be wealth here in the center of the empire. So in every struggle, we always see people who want to take a shortcut, the easy way out. The very first thing they're willing to throw away is, Palestine, solidarity with Palestine. And it's not just, you know, like, electorally. In labor, in even like on school board issues, the IHRA is a very salient issue in a lot of school boards today. Everyone who is kind of trying to shy away from taking a principled stand rather than just a progressive opportunistic approach to winning power shies away from fighting for Palestine because it's a harder fight. It's

something that is really targeting the core pillar of the American Empire. America itself, you cannot really remove Israel from its core without really shaking things up without really changing what the empire

looks like. So a lot of people who might say the right things and act the right way unless they're willing to fight for Palestine you can't really say if they're fighting on principle for the working class or are they're fighting for power, for access, for positions.

It's easy to fake it, but fighting for the real thing is how we know. People are who they say they are. As for the anti-science resolution, it really just entrenches these standards across all visible projects in DSA, these are electoral standards you cannot cross the BDS picket line you cannot attack the Palestine liberation movement you cannot work against this core pillar of our movement against imperialism without there being consequences we are trying to establish an material counterweight the Zionist lobby in America the Zionist lobby has infinite amounts of money to throw around

in small races all across the country. We can withhold our labor from candidates who refuse to take it on. In the process, you know, candidates shift their positions to align with us just so they get our labor when they see how strong the DSA machine is in winning these races. So really establishing these standards establishes a counterweight. candidates either choose to champion these principles we put forward or they lose out on our endorsement and likely lose out on the race where we are kingmaker. And yeah, I mean, that's really the goal with it.

Louisa, do you have anything to add? No, I heard a Vijay Prashad gave an interview a couple recently and he said, you know, we give Netanyahu too much credit. you know, he's just a thug. It's really, it takes the United States, right, to prop up Israel for them to commit the war crimes, crimes against Humay, they've committed. And so I think, you know, understanding Palestine as the moral compass for the socialist movement is really forcing us to have some sort of internal reflection as an organization about how much our perspective on the rest of the world is grounded on US chauvinism, right? And that's very difficult to

escape, especially if you were born here. You know, Ahmed and I weren't. And so I think we don't, you know, we can't help, you know, but think about the rest of the world because of our proximity to it. But, you know, it's very difficult, this idea of, of rejecting this kind of psychic burden of chauvinism it's really really difficult to get the man out of your head you know it's a constant struggle and even for i mean it's for everybody in the rest of the world as part of our our kind of individual evolutions of socialists right um but so much of sionism is like uh you know kind of u.s identity that it's based on on settler colonial project it's very european very first world perspective but that ultimately um you know bravery starts with the self of course and

So this is kind of our version of DSA looking at itself, right? What choice are we going to make? Yeah, I love that. I think it's important. And not only is it the moral compass, not only is Palestine the front lines of the global fight against imperialism and colonialism, which is also the fight against capitalism, as these are all different aspects of a singular process.

It shouldn't be the Palestinians' responsibilities to be on that front line. It's been imposed on them. And I never want to, like, over-romanticize as if they want to be in that. this horrific position that they're in, but they are in it, and they are the moral compass and the leading light for all of us interested in a better world. And what they also are is a dividing line, because it's not only chauvinism in the U.S. and the Imperial Corps, although that's obviously a huge part of it, it's also careerism. When you take a firm stand on Palestine, whether you're an elected official or even just

somebody with a platform at all, or you just have a regular job in some instances, when you take a firm stand for four Palestinians, you are risking your own personal advancement, which is careerism. And that's why a lot of these elected officials will always waffle on this issue and try to take a few steps back and accommodate the bad faith attacks on them from Zionist and play into Zionist narratives. But it also, you make enemies. When you take a firm stance on a controversial issue, it's sad that it is controversial, but unfortunately we live in an evil world and so saying that Palestine should be free

that is the imperial core it is a controversial statement you make enemies and I think for all socialists whether we're running as elected officials or we're organizers we have a platform we have to be utterly willing to make those enemies

and take them head on and actually that's what brings people over to our side people don't want to see another person in a suit get up and waffle on some issue they want somebody even if they don't totally agree with them to take a firm, unwavering, unapologetic stand on something. And, like, you know, Bernie on Palestine is a whole mess. But Bernie on economics, he earns the respect of the right wing.

Like people, like, even like Joe Rogan will always say this, you know. You know, love him or hate him, he's sincere in what he believes. Well, on economic issues, because Bernie has, other things aside, has always stood on very core an economic vision. And that actually garners respect even from people who don't like him or disagree with his politics. And so I think for us, yes, it's a moral compass. It's the front line of a global struggle for a better world. And it's also just a personal dividing line. Like, are you willing to set aside your careerist ambitions and put personal risk on the line and make plenty of enemies to do what's right?

And I think, you know, you are pushing that line. And I try to push it on this show. And I think it is one of the core values. And I think not only is it the right thing to do, it is what makes any person come off to others as genuine, sincere, and authentic. And in a world of careerist opportunists who are just advancing their own personal wealth and legacy and status, that is always will be a breath of fresh air, you know. Absolutely. You know, and of course it's our obligation, right, by virtue of living in the largest area. a nation in the world, the United States, that, you know, ultimately we do benefit, right, from

imperialism. It's certainly taken a walk back. But for the most part, you know, the wealthy United States is built off of the global south. And so we're obligated. Even somebody like me who is undocumented, I'm from Latin America. I still feel the obligation, of course, to kind of pay my rent, so to speak, by virtue of living in this country, which is ultimately, you know, on 39, like that's my choice right um but also i want to say just kind of as an aside in terms of just the story about my own personal understanding Palestine understanding uh again this this this this kind of the psychic burden of chauvinism that you know Palestine will be liberated by the Palestinians right and so that's something that people also in the first world particularly the united states need to

learn is that i remember 15 years ago talking with an elder of the movement who said I forgot what we were talking about, but they said kind of, also as inside, she's like, well, you know, I believe that we stopped the Vietnam War, right? And she was, of course, referring to protests, the protests that happened in the United States. And I believe that when I first heard, I was like, oh, wow, yeah. And then I realized, no, the Vietnamese liberated themselves. The United States lost that war, right? And so, but, and I I think there's, there's very good analogies that, you know, the, the genocide is currently being live streamed practically. And so that's, that's really what, you know, they're called what, the Vietnam, the televised war, that at this point, it's, it's impossible not to see the images, right, if you're on any kind of social media. And so, you know, I think there's a lot of great analogies. And it took me, again, being, you know, trying to be a good ML. It took me, you know, some time to realize that for sure absolutely yeah and i do think that ultimately and this kind of gets back

to what you were saying before louisa that socialism differs itself from social democracy especially in the imperial core by this anti-imperialist and anti-colonial you know principled stance and social democracy in the imperial core historically attempts to wrinkle out that contradiction to basically ignore that And I think those contradictions explode in a figure like Bernie Sanders, who is a perfect representation of social democracy, which is certainly an advance on liberalism and neoliberalism and, you know, the major two-party ideological mainstays. But he has this huge, you know, problem to his politics, which is the problem of social democracy, which is this inability to take anti-imperialist politics fully into and actually see it as inseparable. from your ostensible economic vision, that these struggles are not disrelated, that you cannot have economic justice in one part of the world that is premised on brutal exploitation in another part of the world.

And this is a global vision that we have. It's not a national vision, right? As socialist in the imperial core or in any state, your vision of socialism is not contained within your national borders. It is a global fight for a better world for all living beings. And I think that that is what differentiates. social democrat from a from an actual socialist um so uh yeah i appreciate your your points on that and i do want to move in this direction because we just talked about palestine another one of the

resolutions was this abolish ice campaign and i know um luisa you you have you know lots of experience and immigrant defense and organizing around immigration rights and you have lots of lessons from um global south movements in particular and we're living right now not only during the palestinian genocide but we're living through the mad the brutal disgusting mass deportation wave unleashed by the the Trump administration, which I also want to point out was also happening under Biden. And they called Obama the deporter in chief. Like this is not a uniquely Trump phenomenon, but it is more aggressive. It is more obviously cruel. And that's kind of the point. And there is a concerted effort to make a point of increasing the funding for ICE agents

to go out and terrorize our community. So I'm wondering about that part of the resolution, your organizing background and anything else you want to say on that point. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you brought the deporter in chief. So I think, because I am old enough to have organized Senator Obama

and saw what happened, which, you know, he deported three to four million people. I think part of the reason why, part of the crackdown is obviously or the targeting of immigrants is just part of this part of fascist, the political platform that Trump has.

and the people around him. But also part of it, honestly, I think, is that on Sambola makes him mad, right? That he can't. I mean, it's yet to be seen if he's going to deport as many people as Obama deported, right? So I think there's a part of it. It's just kind of like the ego of politicians

to kind of one up for this to be part of his legacy, right? Why does Obama get to be the reporter of chief? You know, that's my thing. But yeah, I mean, I've had, like I said, I've been around long enough to see, you know, what the, what the differences are when it comes to a deep precedent or an art precedent. I will say, like, the first time that Trump got deported, I was in, or I'm sorry, the first time Trump got elected. That'd be cool. Yeah. That would be awesome. Yeah, yeah. Take him to jail and I'll sell. The first time that he got

elected was one thing I immediately saw was the fear in the community. right? Because the first time Trump won, of course, it was a surprise. And so what I saw was, you know, just days there would be some rumor on WhatsApp or whatever. And then you would have like, you know, 20% of kids not go to school because there was some rumor that ICE was going to be there. And so you see a rise, of course, in hate crimes and huge organizations, right? So that is the most kind of salient in terms of the community. That is a clear difference that I see between somebody like Obama, who had much softer kind of messaging, right, as a son of an immigrant, blah, blah, blah, versus somebody like Trump who has built his political platform on targeting immigrants, on scapegoating immigrants. But in terms of the resolution, you know, it's kind of a grassroots approach. It makes immigrant defense an organizational priority through a national abolished ICE campaign. You know, this is not to finger wag or anything like that. again, the first Trump, DSA was not as much in a place to be kind of a national player

on this front. And so we really want DSA to be a national voice, right, when it comes to immigrant justice. Second is, of course, supporting chapters and building local level campaigns, state level campaigns around abolitionist demands. And then, of course, building an infrastructure, kind of a security infrastructure, support comrades facing repression. You, of course, we've seen that under Trump, right? The targeting of activists who have vocalized support, just tend editorials, right? Immigrant activists were targeted because of that. And so, you know, we really wanted to speak to that and we really wanted to offer kind of a strategy for, for having those fights.

Yeah. That's wonderful and so important. And it is just so out there in the open that the Palestine issue and the immigration issue have been completely, you know, shown to be deeply intertwined with this Trump administration using this mass deportation apparatus to go after people who have spoken up about Palestine. The most famous case was Mahmoud Khalil, but there are many, many others. where those two issues, which are on the face of them and in the mainstream American imagination, perhaps totally separate issues, actually a singular process and a singular issue where both sides are weaponized by this fascist state to go after people who speak up for Palestine or who are here illegally. And I always say like the idea of working class people and families who contribute to this society, who go to work every day, but they just don't have the right papers. and they are called illegal by the most criminal, terrorist, violent nation states since Nazi Germany, the United States of America.

It is an affront to our moral reality and our intelligence as thinking human beings to think that this criminal state, actively engaged as we speak in a genocide, can point its finger at regular working people and call them illegal while it commits every unimaginable and unfathomable crime you can come up with around the planet. it and it does so daily and it does so with our money in our name. So that's always a disgusting, grotesque irony at the heart of this mass deportation campaign that we should always emphasize. But, Ahmed, I do want to move forward with another question, but I wanted to give you a chance to respond to anything we put on the table so far. Yeah, I was just going to respond to the immigrant question. You know, I immigrated to the country as an adult.

And I've always seen in our community a feeling that we are being doubly extorted. You know, whenever we do fight in our own home countries to improve things, you know, and the Arab Spring is a good example of this. When people came out into the streets, the majority of people came out in the streets demanding change, it was the American Empire that came and crushed the revolutions. It was imperialism that came and crushed people's aspirations. It was not like an internal, like the internal powers could not hold back the people. American Empire had to intervene.

So a lot of those people who were made refugees by the destruction of their countries were promised a good life if they just immigrated to Europe or America and just, you know, state focus on their life and became productive, contributing numbers of those economies. Don't build up your own countries. Come build up hours. To come here and then again be extorted into the second-class citizen, not even a citizen, second-class status in the country that you immigrated to, leaves you deeply, deeply, not only betrayed if you had believed in those lies, but angry. Like, you are put in an impossible bind. You can't live in your home country without facing imperialist violence, and you can't live in this country without facing imperialist violence domestically for your status of simply being born in the wrong place, according to the whims of this empire. So I see, like, the reason we focus so much on immigrant communities and organizing within the immigrant communities is because it is inescapable. you cannot ignore the contradiction there. There is nowhere in the world that you can escape, really, the violence of empire.

It's going to chase you down, whether you're here domestically or you're back home overseas. Like, it's the same people. It's the same people who are fighting against you. So it's really the people who are most, willing to come out and fight. Well said. Louisa? Yeah.

Ackman makes a very important point that you cannot talk about immigration, particularly from the global south, without mentioning empire, without mentioning imperialism, without mentioning racial capitalism. They are, you know, there's some people, you know, liberals try to, right? This whole U.S. American dream bullshit, right? But it is a dream, right? It is bullshit that ultimately, like I said, the wealth in the United States is built. of the rest of the world, right? It's stolen. And so, you know, that's why we marry abolition

with immigrants' rights, that ultimately this idea of throwing people into cages, right, black and brown people, it comes from this idea, well, the history of U.S. imperialism, but also from this agenda that a small group of very wealthy people have in the United States of throwing human beings into cages, right? So with the right, so with the right, of immigrant detention centers, which are just prisons, they're immigrant prisons, right? The conditions are punitive that they're basically prisons. It happened in the mid-90s when these rich people saw, oh, the prison population is actually going down. So we need to make up a bunch of bullshit excuses to throw people in jail. So it's created a really strong anti-immigrant narrative about

so-called illegals. Let's, you know, let's create three strikes. Let's, let's, uh, mandatory minimums, taking away prosecutorial discretion, all of that. It is abolition of movement and the immigrants rights movement are two sides of the same point. And at the end of the day, it is inseparable from the movement of anti-imperialism. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, as Marxists, as dialecticians, dialectical materialists, one of our main ideological and political education responsibilities, obligations to people more broadly, is to do exactly what you just said and what both of you actually said in your own different ways, which is showing that these are not disparate problems, that the issue of immigration, the issue of the prison

industrial complex, the issue of the military industrial complex and imperialism, and the issues of low wages and health care and shitty working conditions, and the 500 years of colonialism, that these are actually not separable in any meaningful way, that they are all part of a single apparatus of domination and exploitation with its roots fundamentally in European colonialism. And this is 500 years of that rotten, toxic criminal process that was European settler colonialism and colonialism more broadly being played out over 500 years in developing, this grotesque beast developing through colonialism, through slavery, into capitalism, into imperialism. And, you know, I think when you can start to make those connections,

to regular working people, they start to see that this is not just something that a one issue vote or this one candidate or we can vote our way out of this. They start to see like, oh, you know, to critique this thing also means that I have to critique this other thing because they're inexorably tied together. And I think that's how you raise people's consciousness. That's how you educate people, show them. These things are deeply connected.

And if you hate this one thing, this one issue that you're really concerned about, You have to zoom out and see the broader system that allows that problem to take root and flourish in the first place. And then you can see that its roots are entangled with all these other problems that you at first maybe thought, you know, weren't part of what you were interested in. But, you know, you have to confront. So both of you are doing that seamlessly. And I just wanted to make that point. And I really appreciate both of you for doing that. I do want to move forward a little bit here.

And, you know, Ahmed, you've brought up, I think you brought up both the Arab Spring and the Jordan. George Floyd uprising of 2020. And what these represent and other things, like you can think of standing rock, you can think of Occupy, you can think of obviously the Palestine issue. These are inflection points. These are points where people start to see the system for what it really is. People get radicalized. People get activated.

And although that, you know, they often tend to, or at least without enough organization, they tend to fizzle out over time they still represent evolutions of many people's consciousness and they bring in young people to the political movement they educate people on these issues and they form the basis

of future action and future organizing so I'm just curious and this is for both of you of course what lessons that you draw from such ruptures and how you think DSA and organizers more broadly can prepare for future ones

Because, you know, if we could bet money on anything, we could bet that more crises and more horrific things that we have to respond to and fight back against are coming down the pipeline more and more, especially with the climate crisis and just a decaying capitalist imperialist world order. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of that. The very name of our platform comes from the springs of revolution. There are these revolutionary springs that represent these ruptures that expanded our platform. imagination. We called them the epochs of working class mass consciousness. You know, my formative spring of revolution was the Arab Spring. And, you know, I grew up in a country with a very rich history of struggle, many uprisings and revolutions over the course of the past century. And I still remember the night before having seen Tunis, having seen Egypt toppled

dictators. I still thought it was impossible. And up until it hit midnight of that day, I still thought it was impossible. And then you take the square. And then your entire world opens up. The future opens up. You feel like you can control your future for the first time in your life. You can say whatever you want. You can dream of whatever you want. You can control your life. I think this happens to people more often than people can imagine. There are these moments all around us. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as a revolution. These ruptures happen.

Even on a shop floor, you know, the first time you tell your manager, no, I will not sacrifice my health just so you can make a few extra dollars. I think that can be that rupture. I take a lot of lessons away from the airspring. Like I said, it's my first formative experience, and I spent most of a decade trying to grapple with what could we have done differently. And I think, you know, it's different conditions. And I'm talking about Bahrain here. It's a small country that very few people know about, but our Arab Spring did happen.

and I think I hope people look it up and learn about it. You can have a majority of people take to the streets. You can have mass political consciousness across the majority of the working class. Just know that the rules will always change. The rules are for you. They're not for empire. It's not for the ruling class. You can take control of the structures.

You can play the game. Ultimately, it's about power. I think, you know, there's a hope in peaceful revolution. There's a hope in democratic roads to change, to reform. You know, I think people have cited the carnation revolution recently in DSA. I think people forget that there was violent struggle in the colonies that made that position on Tenable or Portugal. It was a coup

for that reason. The situation was, the Portugal itself Canuck sustain that level of violence against the colonies. So it had to descend into an old colonial empire the way many other European nations

did. But it's that, you know, like before the revolution, I thought I could just live my life, get rich, and use my, like, whatever money I make to help people. Then I realized it really doesn't matter how much wealth you make as an individual. Unless you're organizing collectively as a majority of the country, nothing really will change.

And power only understands power, the rules, you know, they will change them from underneath you. So you've got to be ready for the long run. You know, we are struggling in this terrain right now, in the United States, on the electoral terrain, we are fighting to this mantle, like these policing structures, but ultimately we have to be ready to take control of our neighborhoods, to fight for our neighbors. These things don't happen overnight, and you cannot expect things to proceed in a linear way. Things go through ebbs and flows, and things will change. But at the heart of it is you must rely on your neighbors, your coworkers, your community, to fight with you if you want to change the world to be a better place. There's no substitute. You have to stand your ground because the people in power will use everything to stop you.

They will not let you take over gently or democratically. And the coming rupture is coming. I think ICE, you know, like there's been organizing around ICE for most of a decade. It is that sort of that we know ICE that we have highlighted as an issue before it even became an issue this year. again in the spotlight shows that like these things don't just emerge like revolutions don't happen spontaneously there is always an undercurrent of organizing that people who have made that issue salient and once the conditions are right it takes off like wildfire but people have put in the work to make these issues apparent and they have put in the work to push people to

the forefront of the contradiction there. Can we get rid of this by legislating it away or do we need to do something more? And I think that's the rupture that we're looking to fight next with the Abolish ICE campaign. I'll just add, you know, when I do a lot of know your rights trainings for for the immigrant community. And so when we do train the trainers, one of the things that we start with is that, you know, you have to lead these, these workshops with confidence. You have to believe, right, that at the end of the day, people have rights, right? Because they're already there. They're scared. And so, but it's up to you to kind of show that it's, it's possible to fight back. And so I'm glad you brought up a, like, George Floyd, Derek Chauvin,

becoming the first white police officer to be convicted of murdering a black person in the state of Minnesota. That is because, it is not because of a legal challenge, right? Not that legal challenges are bad, right? But I think it's kind of the default for liberals. It's like, oh, we need to take, it's very, it's very US, right? I'm going to sue you. And that's fine. We should have legal challenges. But of course, just like electoralism, it shouldn't be the only thing. And so with with children being convicted, that was not because of the system. It is because as a population, we scared the shit out of that judge, right? And we scared the shit out of that judge. And we scared the shit out that jury and so that is what ultimately led to that conviction right and so of course for for us the

the the question because would is would we have had that same conviction had there not been millions of people in the streets and of course the answer is no right a liberal might believe that because they have faith in the system but of course as a socialist is as Ahmed was saying that's not how power works and so you know broadly in the United States you need one to five percent of the population in order to really push for political change. And so that's what good strong research has shown is that's what it takes in this Godforsaken country. And so one to five percent actively working for transformation. And so at Occupy, at its peak, you had about 350,000 people, about maybe 0.1% of the population. By the end of June during the summer of George Floyd Rebellion, you had an estimate of 15 million to

26 million total people in the streets, right? So the U.S. population of 340, that's about 17 million people. And so when we talk about meeting the mark, that's what we mean. And so, you know, that was not that long ago. That was a couple years ago. You know, we're not talking about 1968. And so it's certainly possible, right? And it's, it's up to us to, of course, believe in that. And so even recently, you know, the hands-off protests in April, that was three to five million people. So all of this is certainly possible. But again, it's us, we believe, because we are members and leaders, that it will take DSA. And of course, DSA is part of a greater left to make these demands, to do it in an organized way. Absolutely. Beautifully said on both of your parts. And I think

there's a lot of wisdom in what both of you put on the table there. And it's downright, you know, inspiring to hear that. And that's something that I always try to convey to people, across the board to people just getting involved, but especially to young people. And I think this speaks to Ahmed's original idea before the Arab Spring. Like, I could just make money and then I could use my money to help other people. And that's even a pretty altruistic framing compared to the mainstream American capitalist vision, which is just, you know, get mine at all costs, get my bag. Like, I want to have so much money that I don't have to care about these issues, that I can live above these issues because I'll create a little cocoon of comfort with my money. And we live

in a hyper individualist culture that tells people, especially young people, like the way towards happiness and meaning and purpose is to gain status and recognition and fame and wealth. And I always try to convey to people as somebody in my late 30s, you know, that has lived through, you know, a good portion of my life. I'm not as wise as maybe a 70 year old would be. But I do know this. that is actually not a life that is meaningful and purposeful at the end of the day. You can sit in your mansion if you're even one of the very few who could get that far, right? Already we're talking 99% of people don't achieve it even if they try it. But even if you succeed, you can sit in your mansion with your cars and your bag of money

and they're still going to be a screaming void in the center of your soul because those things do not fill an existential or relationship-oriented life of meaning and purpose. So how do you actually build meaning and purpose in this, as Louisa said, Godforsaken country? At this point in history, this crucial crossroads in history where it seems our species can go off the goddamn cliff or through radical change, we can move into a more mature phase of our species' existence. The most purposeful and meaningful life you can do in that context is to join with other good-hearted people who share your values, join in this long tradition of human beings stretching back all throughout human history. that have fought and died and sacrificed for a better world and put in your contribution working with other people to build a better world for you for your community for people in this world today and for everybody who comes after us and when you lay down in your grave

hopefully at the old old age of a hundred years old you will look back on your life and say I dedicated my life to trying to make the world better for other people and in that process. I met and worked with and collaborated with countless beautiful human beings who also shared that value set. And that is actually how you live a purposeful and meaningful life. And what that requires is completely rejecting the life path that capitalism offers as the most meaningful. I don't care about money. I don't care about fame. I don't care about status. I don't care about my career and my personal ambitions. I care about working with other good-hearted human beings to create a better world.

And I promise young people that that is a healthier and better path for you to dedicate your life to and pursue. And I think both of you are speaking to that. This has been a great conversation. And I do want to kind of circle back around to the Springs of Revolution platform. And I just want you to maybe let listeners know how they can help, how they can learn more, how they can get involved, both for those that are already in DSA, like, you know, how can people within DSA help bolster and back up?

this platform. And then to listeners more broadly outside of DSA, how they might learn more about this platform in particular and how they might get involved in organizing with the DSA more broadly. Yeah. So I think the key thing is people, members have agency. They can change how the organization does things. They can change what DSA does and stands for. But this is, extends beyond DSA. You can, you have agency over life. You have agency over your workplace where you love the things in your community. And I think, you know, it's easy to retreat and say there are all these reasons I can't do this or I can't, uh, these things can't happen. But you can't change things. You have to talk to people. You can change things. You can convince people of different. positions. Everyone can change. Nobody's born with their positions. DSA is the same. It's a wide open sphere for people to come in. If they have good ideas that are willing to put in the labor, they can, you know, pass a resolution, push a campaign, organize a campaign, bring thousands of

members along and win it. You know, that's usually how people first radicalize in DSA. They vote on something. They work on it. And then, by some miracle, they win that reform or that change that changes the course of their life. They have access to child care. They have access to legal resources if they're getting evicted. These things are possible. And you can build it in DSA. You can build it elsewhere. But whatever you do, start building, you know. You control your life. You control how things will develop in the future. So take that responsibility seriously. As for our platform in the essay,

if you are a delegate, please vote for our resolutions. If you are a member, there will be a lot of organizing ahead of us. The next two years are shaping up to be some of the most impactful years of our lives if we do everything that we're supposed to do. If we deliver on our responsibilities,

we can change the course of this country and the world. So take that responsibility seriously. Get active. Plug into your local chapters and start pushing. So we have a website. Ahmed has made it. I barely use my phone, but you made this whole website. It's very important.

Yeah, it's very impressive. S-O-R-D-S-A-D-S-A-D-S-A-D-S-A. there it explains our platform we are also you know we're running for mpc which is like i said the national executive board of dsa and so we're running on a slate um with other people there's myself there's achmed there's um andrew from from the denver chapter andrew t you have nell from a the dc chapter uh you have francesca m from connecticut and so you know if you are a delegate please vote for us. It's so weird to say that out loud, but please vote for us. If you are a member of a chapter, say that you're not a delegate, please, and you are sympathetic,

you believe in this platform, please talk to your delegates. If you're not a member of DSA, you know, I will kind of exercise my obligation as a leader. Please join DSA. We need people who are anti-imperialists who understand why the struggle for Palestinian and liberation is so so important we need more people within the organization pushing these kinds of narratives so please consider joining and please uh definitely consider being active as well yeah i totally agree with that in a way to synthesize both of your points is you know you can sit on the sideline and critique an organization that gets nobody anywhere it might make you feel good about yourself but it does nothing to help other people dsa is an organization in evolution

and there are many good principled comrades that I personally know who have gotten in DSA and are fighting to make it better and I think both Ahmed and Louisa are examples of precisely that if you would like to see the largest socialist organization in the United States become more anti-imperialist more principled then get involved and help push it in that direction don't just sit on the sidelines and throw out your critiques they are meaningless if you are not actively getting organized

and fighting to make things better in this world. So my hats off to both of you and to all the comrades working on this. And, yeah, I will link to everything in the show notes, including the SORDSA.org, so people can quickly go to it, find it, learn more about it, and support it. And yeah, thank you both so much for your amazing work, both historically and presently within the DSA. And Rev Left is here for you any time if you want to come back on

and update listeners about. the struggle and progress that you've made so so best of luck to both of you and thank you so much for sharing your time with me today thank you this was a pleasure yeah thank you so much I'm going to be able to be. Thank you.