Rev Left Radio - The Congo: From Colonization Through Lumumba & Mobutu w/ Georges Nzongola-Ntalaja (Guerrilla History)

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

With this episode of Guerrilla History, were continuing our series on African Revolutions and Decolonization with an outstanding case study on the Congo, looking at the process of colonization, how decolonization unfolded, Lumumba's short time as Prime Minister, and the transition to the Mobutu regime.  We really could not ask for a much better guest than Prof. Georges Nzongola-Ntalaja, who not only is one of the foremost experts in not only this history, but also served as a diplomat for the DRC.  We're also fortunate that the professor will be rejoining us for the next installment of the series, a dispatch on what is going on in the Eastern Congo and the roots of the ongoing conflict there.  Be sure to share this series with comrades, we are still in the very early phases of the planned ~40 parts, so it is a great time for them to start listening in as well!   Also subscribe to our Substack (free!) to keep up to date with what we are doing.  With so many episodes coming in this series (and beyond), you won't want to miss anything, so get the updates straight to your inbox.  guerrillahistory.substack.com   Georges Nzongola-Ntalaja is Professor Emeritus of African and Afro-American Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and previously served as the DRC's Permanent Representative to the United Nations.  Additionally, he is the author of numerous brilliant books, including Patrice Lumumba and The Congo from Leopold to Kabila: A People's History Help support the show by signing up to our patreon, where you also will get bonus content: https://www.patreon.com/guerrillahistory 

Hello, everybody. So today we are going to put on our feed, today and tomorrow, a couple episodes from our good friends and comrades over at guerrilla history. They're doing a series on African revolutions and decolonization and extensive series that I think is really important and really interesting, historically, theoretically, and just conceptually for those of us on the left to understand revolutions and decolonization movements in Africa in particular. And they're doing this really, really cool series on African resistance revolution and decolonization that we wanted to promote on our RSS feed and give people an episode or two to listen to and hopefully we'll then migrate over, subscribe to guerrilla history and listen to the other episodes in this growing series. And they wrote a little, you know, short little article kind of promoting the African Revolution and Decolonization series that I want to read for you so you can get an idea of the the series and what they're trying to do with it. So founders of the militant podcast, guerrilla history, Henry Hakamaki, and Adnan Hussein

introduced their new series on African revolutions and decolonization. Focusing on African struggles and revolutions, they invite listeners to encounter radical perspectives from the continent and beyond, challenge their assumptions about history, and learn about the struggles of those who dared to resist depression in Africa. Hakamaki and Hussein argue for a nuanced understanding of the revolutionary movement, that define Africa's past and continue to shape its future. In a world decisively shaped by the legacies of colonialism, imperialism, and the extension of capitalism, the importance of studying African revolutions and the process of decolonization cannot be overstated.

The guerrilla history's upcoming 30-part series, African Revolutions and Decolonization on the Guerrilla History podcast, endeavors to illuminate the complexities surrounding these topics, combining case studies of revolutionary struggles, as well as thematic and theoretical explorations of political and economic processes across the continent and its place in the global system. By engaging deeply with historical examples and vital intellectual currents, guerrilla history aims to forge a rich understanding of the revolutionary dynamics that have shaped Africa and the world. The significance of this undertaking is multi-layered. First and foremost, examining African revolutions is critical for understanding the broader narratives of global resistance against colonial and imperial forces. The revolutionary movements that emerged throughout the continent from Algeria's struggle for independence in the 1950s to the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa

offer invaluable insights into the mechanisms of resistance, solidarity, and the fight for self-determination. These experiences are not confined to the annals of history. They resonate culturally and politically, in contemporary society, informing current struggles against neocolonialism and globalization. Recognizing how these historical narratives inform today's socio-political landscapes can empower current movements seeking justice and equality. In addition to highlighting the specific case studies of revolution, this series will focus on the thinkers whose ideas have been instrumental in articulating revolutionary theory and praxis. The work of figures like

Franz Fanon, Samir Amin, and Walter Rodney challenged dominant narratives and provide frameworks for understanding the complexities of colonialism, identity, and resistance. By delving into their critical writings and analyses, we uncover the philosophical underpinnings

that have guided revolutionary thought in Africa, as well as challenge Eurocentric and hegemonic narratives of the imperial core. These intellectual legacies are fundamental, as they not only critique the mechanisms of oppression, but also envision emancipatory futures, based on freedom, justice, and equality. Our engagement with these thinkers is not merely academic. It is a vital

exploration of the ideas that continue to inspire movements around the continent and world. One of the critical components of this series will be bringing guests from the African continent to contribute their voices, expertise, and lived experiences, engaging directly with scholars, historians and activists from Africa is an essential aspect of this project. This commitment arises from guerrilla history's appreciation that a usable past must incorporate narratives from those who have lived it and have a contemporary stake in changing their circumstances. Sadly, historical narratives are frequently shaped by external perspectives that can distort the realities of the people involved in revolutionary struggles. By ensuring that

guerrilla history is amplifying radical African voices throughout this series, they aim to represent the continent's revolutionary and decolonial history responsibly, while enriching our discussions with diverse perspectives that challenge Eurocentric interpretations. Moreover, hosting guests from across the continent serves to bridge the gap between theory and practice. The guests will provide firsthand accounts of revolutionary movements and the ongoing struggles against legacies of colonialism. Their contributions will help ground the discussions in experiences, which allow listeners to better grasp how these movements were not only struggles of the past, but are also relevant to the historical processes that play out in

everyday life and continue to influence contemporary political landscapes. We believe that by incorporating these voices, we can enhance our understanding of both historical contexts and the ongoing significance of revolutionary thought in navigating today's socioeconomic challenges. Furthermore, our focus on African revolutions and decolonizing aligns with our broader mission as a podcast dedicated to anti-imperialist Marxist analyses. In a current geopolitical climate characterized by increasing militarization, economic inequality, and ideological conflict, it is imperative to revisit the lessons of past revolutions. The struggles against colonial rule and oppression offer critical insights

that can inform current approaches to solidarity and resistance. This series will not only highlight the historical struggles of the past, but will facilitate critical discussions on how these lessons can guide contemporary activism within and beyond Africa, as well as linking struggles throughout the global south and between revolutionary movements in the north and the south. By exploring these themes, guerrilla history aims to foster a deeper understanding of the revolutionary spirit that has pervaded African history. In doing so, they hope to contribute meaningfully to the academic discourse on African politics and history, while also engaging a broader activist audience in the complex

complexities of revolutionary theory and practice. This series is an invitation to listeners, to rethink the narratives they have encountered, challenge their assumptions about history, and honor the struggles of those who dare to resist oppression. Through guerrilla history, they aspire to promote a nuanced understanding of the revolutionary movements that define Africa's past continue to shape its future. By engaging deeply in the complex realities of African revolutions and decolonization, guerrilla history endeavors to help listeners grasp the interconnections between historical movements

and contemporary social justice issues fostering a global community committed to supporting and learning from revolutionary thought and action. As guerrilla history presents this journey into the heart of African revolutionary history, they invite scholars, activists, and curious minds alike to engage with these critical discussions and contribute their insights to this vital field of study. So that is their introduction to the series that I think is really well said and incredibly important. Like I said, we're going to release just two of these episodes and a growing and ongoing series just to let listeners on Rev. Left know that it exists, give them a taste of the series and urge people to go over, subscribe on your preferred podcast

app to Gorilla History, and you'll continue to be able to explore this series, African History, Revolutions, Decolonization Movement. etc. And I think it's incredibly crucial. Africa is a crucial continent, historically, presently, and into the future. And it's one of those areas of revolutionary struggle that aren't covered as much as it should be. And so I think anybody who dedicates the time and energy to listening to this series, learning from African voices, you know, incorporating that history into their knowledge base, I think will benefit immensely, not only as a thinking, feeling human being on the planet, but also as a revolutionary. So go check out guerrilla history, subscribe to them on your preferred podcast app, and we will play the first episode of their series right now, and tomorrow we'll release another one. And then after that, go over to guerrilla history, subscribe, and listen to all the other ones. This is a really exciting project, and I love what Henry and Adnan are up to over there.

Enjoy. No. The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa. They didn't have anything but a rank. The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare. But they put some guerrilla action on. Hello and welcome to guerrilla history, the podcast that acts as a reconnaissance report of global proletarian history and aims to use the lessons of history to analyze the present. I'm one of your co-hosts, Henry Huckimacki, joined as usual by my co-host, Professor Adnan Hussein, historian and director of the School of Religion at Queens University in Ontario, Canada. Hello, Adnan. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, Henry. It's good to be with you. Nice to see you, as always. We have an incredible guest and topic lined up for us today. But before I introduce the guest and the topic, I want to remind the listeners that they can help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes.

like this by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. That's G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And you can keep up to date with everything that we're doing by following us on social media. We're on Twitter at gorilla underscore pod. Again, Gorilla 2Rs. We're on Instagram, Gorilla underscore History. And you can subscribe to our free substack to get updates into your email inbox by going to gorillahistory.com. So this episode, that we have today is a continuation of our African revolutions and decolonization series and is another case study episode within our series. I'm really excited for this episode, which is going to be focused on the Congo, and we have an absolutely incredible guest.

We have Professor Georges Nzongola-Telagia. Professor, it's nice to have you on the show. How are you doing today? I'm doing very well, thank you. It's wonderful to have you. The professor is an author. He's a professor. He's a diplomat. He's a professor emeritus of African and Afro-American Studies at North Carolina Chapel Hill, author of several books, including one which in my estimation is the definitive book that would cover the period and place that we're talking about today. The Congo from Leopo to Cabilla, a people's history. It's a book that if you can find it, which isn't always the easiest thing to do. I highly recommend that you do. It was also the permanent representative of the DRC to the United Nations from 2022 to 2023. So with that housekeeping out of the way, we have a lot of history to cover. And unfortunately, it's history that is not nearly as well known as it should be.

Even within left wing circles, it seems to me that many people are at least somewhat familiar with the story of Leopold. And then there's maybe this knowledge that it transitioned from. from Leopold to the Belgian state. And then, of course, they know about Lumumba. And then there's kind of gaps all around there. There's gaps in terms of what was happening under the Belgian state administration. There's gaps in terms of what happened after La Mumba was out.

Maybe they know a little bit about Mabutu. And then there's gaps in the present as well. So today I'm hoping that we can fill in many of those gaps. And I think that we should start back in that colonial period. So as I mentioned, a lot of people that are listening to this will be familiar with the fact that the Congo was under King Leopold's personal rule, basically, for enriching himself and his family. And then, as I mentioned, some will probably be familiar with that it was eventually moved over an administration to the Belgian state. But can you talk about that period? How did that colonization happen in the way in which it did?

What were the conditions of that late colonial period? And particularly in part of the discussion that is often missing, what was the political economy of that colonial period like? Well, in Leopold II, was the second monarch of Belgium, as you know, Belgium had been a colony of its neighbors for many years. The last colonial power was Holland or the Netherlands. The Belgians were able to make a revolution in 1830 to get their independence from Holland. And the first king was the Leopold I was a German.

As you know, at that time in Europe, it was a German. practice that when you have a state, you must have a monarch. And most, the best place to get monarchs was Germany. And they got there, for example, King Leopold, the first was actually the maternal alcohol of the great British monarch, Queen. The Victoria, yeah. Yes. And then his son, Leopold II, when he became 20 years old, became a member of the Senate. And in the Senate, he was always making speeches about the necessity of having a colony, that Belgium must have a colony. Without a colony, we can't be anything. And of course, as you know, at the time, Belgium was a making a great revolution in the construction of railways. And Belgium had a last, and for a small country, they had a lot of ambitions. But the government, the parliament, as you know,

Belgium was a monarchy, but in which the king did not have much power. The power was in hands of the parliament, and the parliament had no desire for colonies. They said that we are a small country, we just got our independence, we can get into fights of other countries for colonies. But they told the young prince that if he wants a colony, we can help you. We can help you get a colony of your own. But you want to be a colony of Belgium, be a colony of your own. And so King Leopold got engaged with the geographers of Europe and found out that there was a big, big place in Central Africa where no one has ever taken anything except for the Portuguese.

We're already in parts of the Congo Kingdom between Congo, Kinshasa and Angola. But other than that, there was nothing else. And so he got this Welsh-American fellow Stanley, Henry Morton Stanley, and he hired him to be his colonial agent. And Henry had already gone to Africa twice and had known the center of Africa,

especially the area which is now the Congo. And so he told the, the king that he can really get him this colony. So Stanley went to the Congo, went to talk to African chiefs, African

rulers, and made so-called treaties of them. But he's that he took back in making treaties rulers who didn't know how to write and read. And so Henry

Stanley told them that we are making an agreement with the great king of the Belgians. He's going to bring you schools and highways and hospitals

and so on. Well, in reality, the real script said that I, king, so and so, I'm now giving my land to King Leopold II. And of course, King

Leopold used all of this to convince the powers that be, you know, the United States, which was actually the first country to accept the King Leopold Claims to Central Africa, and of course the European powers, and especially the three major European powers, Germany, Great Britain, and France. They didn't want any one of them to have this big territory, which is now the Congo. And so they were happy to have a little kingdom, like Belgium, being over the king regent of the Congo, and therefore he could get that country. And so at the Berlin conference, King Leop would send a letter to Bismarck,

who was the chairperson of the Berlin conference, to say that of the old, countries sitting in Germany, in Berlin, all of them except Turkey, has now accepted King Leopold's claims to Central Africa. And so the whole number of people in this meeting stood up and uploaded King Leopold. And that was that. So he was now the owner of this huge territory, which is bigger than much of Western Europe, and which has fabulous resources and so on. So that's how King Leopold became. And of course, his claim was that he wants to do humanitarian work. He wants to fight Arab slavery and was able to do, was going to do there to do good works and to build a great country and so on. And of course, that's not what

he did. Yeah, I just had a quick follow-up. I think it's very valuable to have a sense of the geographic features and scope of the Congo for people to understand and visualize. So maybe you could describe a little bit its position and something about the main geographical feature. It's and how large a territory we're speaking of. And also something a little bit more perhaps about these groups of indigenous Congolese who made these agreements, you know, like what was the political and maybe broader ethnic kind of character of Congo on the cusp of colonization? And I guess the reason why I ask is because, you know, sometimes we start the story with the Europeans. Of course, Congo, the revolution, and to decolonize, you need those colonizers. But it's important to know and understand what was the kind of broad characteristics and condition of the people that were subjected to colonialism to really understand, you know, what happens subsequently.

So I'm wondering if you could give a little bit of that. geographic and ethnographic, you might say, characteristics of the Congo. Well, the Congo was made up of lots of people. As a matter of fact, we claim that the Congo has 450 ethnic groups, 450 ethnic groups. And we are now a country of 2,345,000. thousand and four hundred and ten square kilometers. So it's a huge, huge country. Now it has 26 provinces, 145 territories, and therefore is a country with many of people are people who are

in the kingdoms. There were kings who had authority over a large territory like the the Lubba, the Cuba, the Lunda, and many are in the Congo, which the name of our country came from the Congo Kingdom, which is part of southwestern Congo and part of northwestern Angola and part of south-east Congo Brazzaville. So it's a huge, huge kingdom, which was already in a relationship of Portugal from the 15th century, when the Portuguese explorer arrived at the place where the Congo River goes into the ocean, the ambush of the Congo River. And of course, he was there

when he asked the people, what do you call this river? They said he was Zidi. And he understood that to be Zaire. That's why Mobutu, in his fall, in his stupidity, began to say that Zaire is a better name for the country than Congo, and he changed the country's name in 1971. But what the Bacongo meant was that this is a big river. And so this relationship was very important because the Congo kingdom became the second Christian kingdom in Africa after Ethiopia, in Ethiopia, then the Congo kingdom. And as a matter of fact, one of the sons of a king went to Rome

and was made a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church. And so the church, especially the Pope sent Italian and Portuguese priests, and these are the people who were really in control of the church and so on. But when it comes to the other chiefs, these are people who were sovereigns in their own territories and were able to really protect their people against people like the Arabs who are coming to take slaves and so on. But there was no single authority for the country as a whole.

And each one of the kings was a person who would make his own decisions. And of course, Henry Morton Stanley got them all of them to fool them in signing with so-called treaties and so on. And of course, as I pointed out, the most important thing for the fact that King Leopold got the country was that the major powers did not want to have any one of them take the country. because they said that was going to give him too much. And so they were pleased to have King Leopold take over the country because they believed that he was going to fail. As a matter of fact, France made an agreement of King Leopold, but should he fail, France will be the next country to take over the Congo.

As a matter of fact, when our independence time came, we had to get the approval of France. that they are going to allow us to become independent. But of course, they never let us to really be free because they continue to work of Mobutu and then of Kabila, the son, Joseph Kabila, and so on. And we don't like the present we have now today because they think that they cannot control him.

Yeah, I just had a quick. That was fascinating. I mean, I think that's a very important point that the so-called Scramble for Africa and the Berlin Conference ended up being a success for Leopold because there were many competing European colonial interests that didn't want any of the other competing powers to gain this territory so they thought they could settle on somebody else, you know, in this. So that's interesting.

But also, it's interesting when you said earlier about how he even acquired. the capability to pursue a colonial territory of his own and not of the Belgian state because the Belgian state itself was uninterested in trying to assume such responsibilities in the language that you framed it as because they didn't, they felt that they were a small country and that it would be put them in conflict and competition with rival powers that they couldn't hope to overcome. So that's kind of an interesting, there was the fear that if we have a colonial territory will be in conflict with these other powers. But in fact, what ends up happening is that the rival powers actually settled on, you know, giving it to what they thought would be a small weak country that wouldn't pose a threat that if the territory was absorbed by one of their rivals would, you know, be a serious problem. So that was kind of an interesting contrast. But I did want to ask a little bit about something you mentioned, which was the raids by Arabs to take and capture slaves. I was wondering, were they coming mostly from what was or would be Sudan or from what is Tanzania today? which you know where were these coming from um i know that there was of course a lot of

british colonial concern about it in the sudan as well um but where where what's the history of this taking place and um you know i'm wondering also the market for for these was this was was the market for captured africans um at this point in history, was it like the Ottoman Empire, or where were they being taken to? Well, there were two sources of Arab slave seekers. One was in West Africa and the Atlantic shores of West Africa, which was a very important area of commerce between Africa and the Maghreb, the Arab North, and to Europe. As a matter

of fact, as one scholar has pointed out, West Africa was the main source of gold for Europe. As a matter of fact, all of the major of gold came from West Africa. He went up all the way to Morocco with the Morocco being the last point in Africa before we go through the Mediterranean to bring things to Portugal and Spain and so on.

During that time, the Trans-Saharian road was a major road of commerce, commerce in gold, in silver, and other goods, but also commerce in slaves. And the slaves were taken to North Africa and to Europe. And of course, the Arab Mediterranean areas. That road also went all the way to Cartier. Because as you know, you look at the map, one road would go all the way to Morocco.

another one would veer up to the east to go into Sudan and Egypt and so on. That road sometimes went up all the way to the Great Lakes region of East Africa, where our country is now in the war with Rwanda. As a matter of fact, there were slaves taken from the Great Lakes region, from parts of our country, the Pongo, that went all the way to Iraq. As a matter of fact, in the 19th century, one of his slaves who had been taught how to become a military man. He made a coup. He took away the area of the second largest city in Iraq today is in the south.

Basra, yes. He took over Basra for over something like 18 years. It was this African from the Congo who was the leader. And of course, until today, you still have black Africans in southern Iraq. And of course, that's the discrimination continues and so on. As a matter of fact, I remember hearing something last year, I think it was last year, a year before when the head of the national television had decided to have a black girl, a young black woman to be giving the national news. And everybody in that place was outraged. You know, this nigger took up giving news, but this young woman knew Arabic very, very well. she had learned that, you know, the, all kinds of Arabic and so on.

And she was very, very competent to do the job. I don't know whoever she lasted longer or not, but this is the kind of citizen we have. No, that's one A. The other one was Zanzibar, especially when the Arab

sultans, gosh, I used to talk to the ambassador from that country, Because we said that we have something in common, which is Zanzibar, because many of the people in Zanzibar came from the Congo. As a matter of fact, they are Tanzanian citizens today. As a matter of fact, one day at the University of North Carolina, we had invited the ambassador of the African Union to the United States to come and give a speech at our university. And when we took her to dinner that evening, she was sitting next to me. She said, a professor, do you know that you and I are cousins?

I said, how so? She said, well, my grandmother comes from Kindu in my Nema province. And so you have all these people in Tanzania who are Tanzanian citizens, but they are from Hong. As a matter of fact, during the Belgian colonial period, they had the Belgian passports and they could travel easily between Tanzania and the Congo. And because Mali Mnirere, the president of Tanzania, said that, you know, they are all Tanzanian citizens and there's no problem with discrimination or anything. They are citizens.

And of course, they participated in a struggle for independence in Tanzania. And even the revolution of 1963 in Zanzibar, some of the people who led that thing were people of Congolese origin. So this was the second area where one sliver known as Tipo Tip was very, very influential. And he's the one who was able to control the territory all away from the Lake Tanganyi, all the way to Kisangani, following the Congo River, going all the way from Kindu to Kisangadi. So all of these were the major sources.

And of course, King Leopold was simply hypocritical because he claimed that he wanted to go to fight. As a matter of fact, he collaborated with Tipo Tip, the Arab sliver. As a matter of fact, he even appointed him the governor of the Kisangan region, which Tipati simply laughed because he already had the control of that area. But, of course, when King Leppard was able to amass enough power, he went to war against the Arabs.

It was mostly mixed people of both Arab and African origin. I want to talk about the political economy a little bit. So you mentioned that the Congo is a fabulously rich region, but in particular, rubber was a particularly important thing at the time that we're talking about this colonial period. And if we're talking about not only the value that was extracted, but also the number of lives that were destroyed during this period, I think that this is an important point for us to talk about in terms of not only the political economy of that colonial period, but also the direct devastation on the people of the Congo under the colonial period. I mean, there's many estimates that show that at least 10 to 15 million Congolese lost their lives during just Leopold's time. That's before it was transitioned to the Belgian Congo. So perhaps you can talk a little bit about the political economy at that time, the conditions for the people within the Congo. And then in 1908, there was quite a bit of pressure in terms of trying to get a transition to happen.

to get the Congo under Belgian parliamentary control, essentially. Can you talk about that transition as well? So I guess these couple of points, political economy conditions in the Congo and that transition. Right. When King Leopold took over the Congo, they didn't know much about minerals. Our greatest wealth is minerals. But at that time, they hadn't been, I think, the first experience. of minerals took place at the beginning of the 20th century when a young expert went to the

Katanga and he said that the Congo was a scandal in a sense that almost all the minerals you can see on the chemical chart are found in the Congo just in that Lubumba, the Katanda area where he did most of his exploration, he found all

kind of minerals right there. But when Leopold was in control of the country, the most important resources were rubber and ivory and the spices. And of course,

at that time, When the Scottish doctor found a way to make a bicycle tire for his son's bicycle. And of course, there was also the discovery. I mean, the patent was gotten by Ms. Michelin in France for a tire for vehicles. all of this made it very, very important that the market for tires became extremely important. And so King Leopold took advantage of that to be able to get a lot of rock because the congl had the loss of rock bear, which was wild, which grew up in the forest and so on. And so he made it compulsory for the Congolese to collect this rubber and to present them to the king's administrators in the Congo.

As a matter of fact, each village had a quota to satisfy each day. If we don't satisfy it, we have a problem. Women were raped and children would be given no food, no food, no way. water for almost a whole day because the men have to go back into the woods and bring in the required quantity of rubber. And of course, many people died. There's lots of problems as to how many people. Some people talk about six, some people talk to 10 million. There's a whole discussion about that. But of course, the problem is that it was a genocide. because it is not the question of numbers,

the question of what was done to the people. For example, in Namibia, the people of the Herrero and Namba people who were killed by the Germans, they didn't go beyond a million. They were less than a million. But of course, it is known as the most important genocide, the first genocide of the 20th century in the world.

was the one that took place in known as South West African territory of Germany. And in the Congo, many of the people died, did not die from bullets, they died from the fact that many people ran into the forest to run away from their villages because of the problems that would face with the kings, the soldiers, and so on. But people would go into the woods and there would be victims of snakes, of animals, of bad, you know, situations like places they're doing very cold. And, of course, lack of food and so on. All of these contributed to people dying in large numbers.

And the Presbyterian missionaries in the Kasai area, for example, they documented a lot of these things. One was an African-American pastor who was one of the founders of the Presbyterian Church in the Congo, who wrote all of these things, and even was taken to court by the Kasai company. This company that was in control of rubber in the Kassai area, and the company said that this pastor did do something that this was not correct, and they didn't do what he did. Anyway, when the matter went to the courts in Kinshasa, because at that time, the Kinshasa was a place to have Malibis because it was a country, I mean, was an area at the place where the Congo River

has two major countries, Congo Brazzaville on one side and Congo, Leopoldville and the other. So Alvo, the capital, was at Boma, towards close to the Atlantic. and Kinshasa was up north. And this, the judge who held the case, Belgian, understood that the Americans, they had sent the American hassle, who was in Boma, who was in the capital of the airports, Congo.

And the deputy, who was in Kinshasa, then Leopoldville, they went to court every day. And because the Belgian king understood that the United States had the veto power and whether or not Belgium can inherit King Leopold's Congo. And so he understood that he better let these people go. So what he decided was that he said, well, look, the pastor's, uh, Ardipo did not mention the company of Kasai, the Kasai company. So why should we make them a problem?

There's no problem. So he dismissed the case. And the pastor was freed. And of course, the United States did approve that the transfer of the Congo from King Leopold to the Belgian government. So the rubber problem was a major problem, and certainly it did create lots of problems for the Congolese people, and many, many people suffered as a result of that. I think maybe it would be helped. I mean, we could talk about some of the terrible atrocities and exploitation under the regime of King Leopold, and we probably should mention some of them. These have been, you know, become rather well known that at the same time, as you called him a sort of very hypocritical person at the same time that he was presenting himself as saving, you know, the Congolese from these, you know, raids from Zanzibar, you know, enslavement raids and that he planned to, you know, build a lot of infrastructure and provide them with, you know, modern institutions and so on. he was ruthlessly exploiting the people of this of this region.

So I'm wondering if maybe you could talk a little bit, certainly talk a little bit about that in terms of the scale, the magnitude and the character of his very tyrannical and exploitative rule, but also how resistance to his rule started to begin to express itself and manifest over the course of the colonial period so that we can understand how the Congolese freed themselves from his colonial rule. Yeah. King Leopold is one Belgian scholar wrote

that King Leopold owned the Congo just as John Rockefeller owned Standard Oil. And the question was, is it profitable? And so what he did was to make it profitable, he had an international administrators. There was not only Belgians, but also Italians, Scandinavians, and other Europeans were the administrators of Leopold's kingdom in the Congo. and the soldiers and clerks and so on were taken mostly from West Africa.

There were Nigerians and Ghanaians and others that came to work for King Leopold. And he also hired soldiers from Zanzibar. The soldiers who were working for the slavers coming into his army and so on. So all of these were organizations that were really terrible. They mistreated people, they killed people easily, and so on. So this was, and of course, the European administrators were paid bonuses if they produced more and more resources to be sent to Europe. And this was the, this is the system.

of the economy that existed at a time. And so now the Congolese, in terms of working against the system, yes, it happened all over the country. There were people in the north area, Kisangani, and of course the Kivu, the people in the Kassai, the people in the west. There were people who were revolting against the horrors and against the system of exploitation, but existed. And of course, the horrible way with the military, for example, they would move. And some of these remained even after Belgian rule, that, for example, they would send soldiers.

to villages simply to say what they call a promenade that promenade wasn't a little nice straw around

villages were to give them an idea that you are under control they could go and take people's animals like goats and the place where people have a big systems of having animals and so on.

They would take their animals, and all these soldiers were from Africa or even Congolese, but who love meat, and they would go and take these people's meat and kill them and eat them and so on. And so all of these really revolted people, and they did their best to protest and to get, pick up the arms, whatever arms of the head, to fight against this system. And of course, the soldiers also went on revolts. We had revolts in the Khananga area, in the Kassai, in the lower Congo, close to the Atlantic, in Katanga, in Ketangang, we've had really lots of places where people would rise up against the system of exploitation and terror that the system presented to the people.

Yeah, I think it would be great to talk a little bit more about some of the consequences of that and the transition to Belgian rule further. But just to underline the point that the scale and the level of atrocities was so high that in that famous Roger Casement report, he reported in his findings that the population of the Congo had been reduced by about half, you know, in the course of about 15, 20 years of Leopold's governance and exploitation. So that's just a devastating effect of, you know, colonial exploitation. Yeah, the numbers are difficult to us, then, whether what Casman and others, many of his people, caseman got his information, mostly from Protestant. missionaries in Lower Congo, in the Kasai, in Ecuador, and some Scandinavians in Northeast Kisangan area and so on.

But the reality is that, yes, the system did collaborate to reducing numbers of people in the country, and the King Leopold, as a matter of fact, when King Leopold established his own, his own group of experts to go into the Congo

to see whether the Kessman's report was correct. He was really outraged to see that these people, he's American, I mean French, Belgium,

and the Italian, they came back of a report saying that yes, whatever Casman said is correct, it's true. And the king didn't know what to do. And that really gave the great powers

of the day to decide that the combo should be taken away from King Airport and given to the Belgian government. Well, I'll come in here then and then ask about what changes were seen when the transition happened to the Belgian parliamentary administration of the Congo and then

talk a bit about continued resistance and also even there's some more amorphous forms of resistance. So in particular, I would also like to hear as you get through this process talking a little bit about the Leopoldville riots of January 1959 and how that fits in within the a story of resistance, continued resistance, in the lead up to independence. Yeah, there's a British historian who wrote a book about the transfer from King Leopold to Belgian rule. They sound out that, yes, the Bergen's may have diminished the level of terror or the level of the bad things

were there to the Congolese. But nothing really had changed that the system was very much what King Leopold had left to be. And that the system, especially when it comes to the economy, was the same.

As a matter of fact, the first Belgian Minister of Colonies wrote an article saying that the major desire of Belgium is to develop the economic system of the Congo for Belgian needs. So in other words, we were there to make the Congo the country that would bring wealth to the Belgians. And of course, we did nothing to improve the lives of ordinary. people. As a matter of fact, he had a system of, for example, we take Patrice Lumumba

and people who were clerks of the colonial administration, they would be doing, for example, Lumumba was put in charge of the postal office's role of paying, with We didn't have banks. You know, the banks came out very, very late. So before banks were abandoned, the postal service was the medium through which people can send money to their stores where they buy things, the pharmacies, the other things that they buy. you pay money to the postal service and postal service transferred it to the owners. And that was a job that was reserved for Europeans.

But they put Lumomba a Congolese in charge of that office because he was very, very smart. He knew the system very well. But he was paid one-tenth of what the Belgian would earn. And the Belgian would be given a house, we'd given a vehicle, would give a vacation every two or every three years for six months in Belgium. All expenses paid for. The Congolese would have no house. They have to buy their own houses.

They didn't have no vehicles. They had to buy bicycles and so on. So it was this flagrant discrimination, and the people like Lomba could not stand it. You know, they were really sick and tired of the manner in which they were treated. And so this is what the things that made it necessary for people to start thinking about changing the situation, and which led to the 1959 revolt in Kinshasa. And, of course, that revolt came out as a result of the first Pan-African conference that took place in Accra, Ghana, in December 1958.

As a matter of fact, I was invited by the University of Ghana, the trading unions of Ghana, the socialist party of Ghana, they invited me to be the keynote speaker at the 60th anniversary of that thing. So in December of 2018, I gave the opening keynote address because they said if they wanted to honor Patiss Lumumba, because this was his first speech to Africa in my crown. And then after that speech, he went back to Kinshasa. And on the Sunday, before Christmas, he gave a speech in Kinshasa to tell people what happened in Akra and why we have to start fighting for our independence. The next Sunday, which was the 4th of January, Joseph Kasabubu, who was the first leader of the independence struggle in the Congo.

He saw Nkrumah taken over his place. I saw Lumumba taking over his place. So he said, no, no, no, I have to make my own speech. So he sent a letter to the Belgian mayor of Kinshasa, Leah Porville then, asking for permission to hold another rally on the next Sunday, January the 4th. The mayor responded in a very diplomatic language that, yes, we would agree to that thing if it meets all of the requirements of holding a nice the rally without any problems, blah, blah, blah. And Kasarvubu, having been a person working in the Belgian colonial system for years,

he understood that that was no. It was not correct. So he went to the place where the rally was to take place to tell the people that were, you better go home because they did not give us permission to organize the meeting. the people said no. And so it was a Sunday afternoon. There were people who were going to the soccer game, were coming out of them, and then they understood what happened.

They said, okay, we are going to join this revolt. And then this was a time when Belgians would be coming back from the countryside where they go for the weekend to very nice places to live. live well, and eat well, and so on. So people started sending, you know, sending all kind of things to their vehicles. You know, they send bricks and all kind of stuff they could find. And, of course, three, four days, Kinshast was nothing but a revolt.

And lots of people were killed and so on. So this was really, this is. why we have it today as the Independence Martyrs days, one of the major holidays in the Congo, the 4th of January of each year. And of course, Lumumba became the main leader of Independence struggle because he was the only one to work for a political party but is totally national, but is not tribal or ethnic, but one that is open to all Congolese and what has members in every one of the six provinces of the Congo and so on.

So just talking about that process then, you talk after this revolt that takes place in at the time Leopoldville now, Kinshasa, there's then a roundtable conference that takes place in Brussels that very month where it's decided that the Congo is going to become independent in June of that year,

in 1960. No, the roundtable took place a year later. Yes, exactly. So the roundtable took place a year after the revolt and the independence would take place the same year as the conference had been held in January of 1960. Sorry for that small confusion.

But it was then going to be scheduled that there would be elections taking place that would be leading up to the independence itself. And that is where Lumumba and his party, the MNC, you know, come to power at that point as we enter this independent phase. Can you talk about how that transition from the colonial entity ruling over the Congo to them granting so-called independence? And, you know, we're going to talk about how,

nominal independence doesn't necessarily mean that you are sovereign and independent from external influence, but that'll come up later in the conversation. But how does that transition happen with regard to going from being under colonial administration to this nominal independence? Well, basically, what the Belgian did was to place a trick. The trick was that they decided, you know, here's a country where in 1956, a Belgian professor at the Colonial University in Belgium, this is where they teach the people who are going to be sent to the Congo as administrators have to go to get courses and how to administer. territory. The professor wrote a book, a pamphlet, basically, in Dutch, then was translated to English early in 1956, which says that a 30-year plan for the emancipation of Belgian Africa, Belgian Africa, meaning Belgian Congo, Rwanda, and Urundi, now called Burundi. And many people in Belgium insulted him as a communist, as a, you know, person have no ideas.

He said, these Africans can be, you know, be given independence in 30 years. It's probably about 100 years or so. Kasavubu, the guy I mentioned. Kasavubu was the first Congolese to say no, hell no. We want that independence now. This is 1956 in July or August of 1956 where Kasabubo said, no, we did that independence now. And so he became well-known. As a leader, Alvo, he was too much interested in his own group, the Bacongo,

and he wanted to have federalism and so on, because he didn't think that other people in the Congo were ready, but he thought the Bacongo, his own ethnic group were the ones who were ready and so on. So that's why he lost out to Lumumba because Lumumba was open to everybody. After the revolution of January 4th, 1959, there was a meeting of political parties held in Kananga, then Lula Bur, where all the political parties who were there agreed with Lumumba that we want independence to arrive in two years, in 2000. I mean, 2006 this is what the

Congolese wanted independence. But the Belgians didn't like that, because when they saw the situation was getting out of the hand, they said the best thing

to do is to make this and go quickly so that the Congolese would not be ready for independence, you see? Because we had

the round table conference took place from January 20 to February 20, 1960. And then at that conference, the Belgians decide that independence is going to be given on June 30th. Everybody, you know, the Congolese were happy

and they danced that night and so on. But they didn't understand that they were being tricked by the Belgians. You see, because how can you have independence in, what, five months, less than even five months, when we have no idea what it is to govern the country, to take care of a huge country like the Congo and so on. And so it was a major mistake by the Congolese leaders to go forward and play to the trick of the Belgians to have independence. And of course, the Bergen's idea was that,

it's like if you followed, what happened in Katanga? When independence came on June 30th, Katanga declared independence on July 11 of 1960. So 11 days after independence. But in Katanga, the Congolese never ran Katanga. Katanga was run by the Belgians. You had the Belgian, a guy who was the nephew of the chief of staff of King Leopold was the person who was sent to the first to govern Katanga with a group of people.

And of course, there was soldiers and police officers sent. by Belgium to take care of the security of Katanga and Chombe and Munong and all the others, all the day to do was to sign, you know, they had no control of Katanda whatsoever. And then, of course, the United Nations guide in because Dag Hammershild was part of these people who believed that we should not change the system that all, the countries that were European colonies have to remain parts

of the European world, of the Western European world. And they should not be led to go into other spheres. And so that is best to make it possible for Lumumba to be

removed from power and of course to make it easier for him to be assassinated. So do you The United Nations owns us a lot. Until today, they haven't given us the excuses about why they did what they did. When Doug Hammersholt has the United Nations Security Council next resolutions about what should be done, for example, to remove Belgian troops and European mercenaries from Katanga, and he doesn't do it, you know. and he would send soldiers all over the Congo,

but he wouldn't want to send them into Katanga and so on. So this makes it possible for them to do whatever is possible to weekend Lumumba and to lead him to his death. Maybe you can talk a little bit about, I mean, that's a very important component of the story. And I think, you know, so many people, I mean, even today you go to New York in the vicinity of the UN and there's Dag Hammersholtz,

Square and all of this, he's held up as a hero. But the true history here that we should remember is the way in which these international institutions themselves were used to try and perpetuate forms of quasi-colonial rule and to retard the development of, you know, the free nations, you know, from colonialism. And so perhaps we could actually talk a little bit since you alluded to it about what happened in the early period of Lumumba's administration. He won the elections and was the prime minister, won the parliamentary elections. So how was his government fully undermined? And what would you say were the factors that really led to his assassination? And I guess I'm thinking partly also here about what you said contributed to the success of

his popularity in the decolonizing phase, which was that he presented a national, sovereign kind of movement for an independent Congo that didn't fit necessarily geopolitically into the plans of the former colonial. Okay, I see we're getting, you know, the story there. Yes, a famous book, important book, perhaps you can tell us what, you know, that part of the story and talk about what the scholarship you're aware of has to say about the real deep history here behind if you saw the back page where I give my endorsement to the book, I say this is a magnum opus. This is the best book ever written. about, you see, white malice, the CIA, and the covert repolonization of Africa.

This is what happened to Lumumba. Of course, this book is about only, it's about two countries only. It's about Kwame Krumah and Patrice Lumumba. Both of them, well, Corona was overthrown in a coup data. in February in 1966 and Lumumba of course was assassinated

on January 17 1961 what happened was this the United States and Belgium and of course of the support of

France and Great Britain they were determined that African countries that get independence should continue to be guided by their former colonial powers. And that this, what Susan Williams refers to recolonization, this is the idea, but still have it until today. You can hear people in France saying that we should not allow the Africans to have control of their country. We have to continue controlling them. I'm sure you've been following recently

how country after country are asking the French to remove their troops. But here's 65 years after independence, you still have a French military bases in a number of African countries. And they are there. The governments love them because they can protect.

them from good Eta. They can protect them and so they can stay on forever like this

guy in Cote de Vois right now who is now on his third term and and he really

wants to have a fourth term now for election coming up by the end of the year.

So in the case of Aquaman Krumah and Patis Lumumba here are the leaders

who say that Their objective is to have really sovereign countries that will utilize the wealth of our countries to develop the country and to improve the living conditions of our people. The West is not like that. See, he takes our country, the Congo. We have the best strategic minerals the world can find. We have the best, and yet our country is among the poorest in the world.

Now, how do you explain that, that we have all of these governments that have been there in Congo for 65 years? We are unable to face up to a little Rwanda, which is like the size of one little territory in the Congo. we have 145 territories, and this little one Rwanda is able to humiliate us as they've been humiliating us for the last 30 years. And the question is, how to explain that? It's because we have political leaders who don't really think about the future. We don't really think about doing what the Lumumba wanted to do. All of the interested in is getting rich. We have people who have billions

and people who have all kind of wealth. And as a matter of fact, from time to time, they keep losing all this way because someday someone in the United States say, okay, we're going to keep this money because it's stolen money. They never return to the Congolese people. They keep it.

Switzerland did the same thing. The French would do the same thing and so and so forth. So we keep losing our money to these so-called developed countries. And so this is the problem. And the Congress showed when independence came, what did it do? He sent his number two, Roth Dutch, the African-American, You know, guy who won the Nobel Prize for his work in the Arab-Israeli War of 1948. And his superior, the Swedish guy, was killed.

And so he was the one in charge of continuing the process of peace. And so he won the... Now, this guy went to Kinshasa before independence and was... has tried to stay after independence. And Dag Hammershaw already had a plan about sending troops, UN troops to the Congo. Before the problem arrived, he had already planned all of this. Because in collaboration of the America,

as a matter of fact, he almost all of his advisors were American and British. He had one Russian guy, as I'm the Secretary General for Political Affairs. Doug Hammers showed excluded him from Congo discussions. And the guy who was his, the assistant to the Russian guy, was an American. And he's the one who kept all of the papers, all of the documents, and the Congo. But he was told never to show his boss, the Russian,

ever to see any of his documents. That's the Gama showed. So in his thinking, the Americans and the British were white-handed people. These are the people who will do the job

because they are international civil servants. They don't work for their countries. But the Russian is going to work for Russia. But in reality, it is the Americans and British who are working for their countries. They're the one who were biased, who are already against.

I did my research before I wrote my book. In the UN archives in New York, you should see the language that that hammer shield and rough bunch use when we differed to Tunkrumah and Lumumba. It makes you sick to see that. That is how they kept them, they think of them. You know, they are impossible. They are responsible what happened because that Hamishold took into his hands the whole authority of the United Nations.

Rather than following what the Security Council asked him to do, he would do that. Of course, the Security Council knew very well that he won't follow what they did anyway. But they did it to make the people in the world accepted. But in reality, they know that Dagamishu will do the right thing. The right thing is to do whatever harm he has to do to Lumumba. Just quickly, do you have any examples? I mean, you tantalized us with saying the kind of way they were describing these UN officials, a bunch

and how... What were they saying about? As a person who's not the right, who's sick or something. I think, yeah, didn't that come out? I think that came out that they were kind of portraying and characterizing the mumba as maybe, you know, unstable mentally as someone. Yes, that's right. And they were trying to spread those rumors too, actually.

I think the CIA tried to spread those rumors to undermine support, saying, oh, he's unstable. If you see, for example, the United States, States was against Mkrumah because Mkrumah wanted to develop nuclear energy, not to make nuclear arms, but nuclear energy in terms of making sure that the country has electricity and that, you know, he did this great Dan in Ghana to be able to provide water and for and electricity, not only for Ghana, but also for neighboring countries like Benin and Burkina Faso and so on. And, but they say that, you know, they send the CIA to work on visiting and to make sure that Krumah fails in his attempt.

At the same time, they go and work with the South African apartheid regime to use. nuclear weapons, to have nuclear weapons, and so on. So in other words, for white people to do it is okay, but for blacks, you can't allow them to do it. So sheer racism and sheer lack of respect for black people and Africans. And this is what has been going on. so after we get to the point where Lumumba is killed and that's a story that I'm sure many of our listeners are quite familiar with but we come out of that period into a time of uncertainty and instability and eventually we get to the period of Mobutu and Mobutu is on the cover of your book the book which I referenced at the top of this episode and which I had a I wish I had a physical copy of I've had to utilize libraries throughout the years to read it, but it is, it's very difficult to get physical copies of professor. We're going to have to try to fix that somehow. But in any case, you have Mobutu on the cover of the book. And that is a period of time in which some will be familiar with the rampant excesses of the regime. But, you know, that there's not really a broader understanding of that period of time. And it's interesting, like even today you'll find, people from the Congo who think fondly of that period of time.

I told you before we hate Recora that I work with someone who is from the DRC and is a hardcore Mobutu fan for his own reasons. And again, we'll talk about that some other time, not now. But I'm wondering if you can take us through that period of Lumumba's assassination up through the Mobutu period because that is a period which is extremely interesting and is not nearly as well

understood as I think it should be. Yeah. Well, Mobutu, as you know, was a person that Lumumba met in Belgium. Mobutu had been a

soldier. He spent seven years in the military. At that time, in the Belgium, Congo, a person who had done two years of secondary schooling could do military service for two years only. But if he haven't done two years of secondary school, you're going to the military for seven years. Mobutu was in the second year of secondary school, but he was an unruly fellow and the Catholic a priest who were teaching him did not like him. And so they kicked him out of school and asked the military to take him. So he went in and that seven years, he learned how to use a typewriter.

So he became to read and to write, starting writing articles. and he became a sergeant in charge of paying soldiers their money and when he finished seven years he went to Kinshasa and a Belgian guy hired him in his newspaper

so he learned how to become a journalist and then he was hired by the Belgian intelligence he went to Belgium supposedly to learn social work but I know a woman

who was there at the School of Social Work he said Mobutur would come to the class once or twice a week it was never there every every day because his real work was not social work

he was there being learned to be an informer for the Belgian intelligence. And then Larry U.S. CIA man, Devlin, yeah, Larry Devlin, was sent to Brussels, after finishing his training at the CIA, was sent to Brussels with his unique task was to find out who are the next leaders of the Congo. and the Belgians introduced him to Mobutu.

They became friends. They became friends until the very end. So Mobutu became also an informal for the CIA. Now, when people told them all of these things, he just dismissed them. This is a problem, one of the great problems of great leaders that they tend to think that they have nothing to fear.

And you saw it with America Cabral. You know, he was told in Guinea, Bissau, I mean, in the Guinea Conakry, where he was the headquarter of his party was fighting the Portuguese in Guinea Bissau and Cape Verde. And they told him that one of the guys that he had put into. what is known as the Correction in the Correction Institute because he had done something

that was, I think, a collaboration of the Portuguese, and he went into the correction. When he came out to correction, Cabral appointed him as the chief of his security. People said

Mr. Cabral, he was crazy. This guy worked with the Portuguese intelligence against you. And now he said, ah, but we send him into correction. So we must believe in our system of corruption. Well, this is a guy who killed him. One evening, he and his wife are going back home to their apartment from, I think, they went to see a film or a play.

this guy pull out his revolver and killed him. And Lombo is the same way. They tell him that Mobutu is a bad guy, he's working with the Belgian intelligence in the USAIA.

So Lumumba goes to Mubu, say, Joseph. They tell me you're working on this people, it's true. I was a very past, he said, he said,

And, Patrice, I can do such a thing, you know. And, of course, this is a guy who betrayed him. This is the Judas Escariot who betrayed him. And the guy who later on, he goes to declare him the national hero. And so what? And we're supposed to upload all of that when he's a real, a killer, you know. So Mobutu was basically a person who was there to do whatever, the United States, the

Belgians, the French asked him to do. And of course, they dumped him, you know, after the, at the end of the Cold War, we didn't have any need for him. And so the, what we're discussing on Thursday, the eastern Congo, the, uh, the, uh, Rwanda and Uganda were given the green light by the United States to get rid of him. And we did. Perhaps we can get a little bit more about what it was like in the Mobutu period. I know that that would be something interesting to discuss.

Of course, everyone is also knows, you know, that he renamed the country. He had a very flamboyant kind of like public sort of presence. He was, of course, posting the rumble in the jungle, you know, which got a lot of attention. But in the West, but meanwhile, he was a very dictatorial figure, it seems, you know, inside Congo. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit about, like, you know, as you're pointing out, he was an agent, really, for the recolonization and continued subordination of Congo by the Western powers, now led more by the United States, taking over for the Belgians and the French, but really for the United States. But what other kind of important features would you want to talk about

or characterize about Congo and continued attempts at political, you know, liberation under Mobuto? Well, Mobutu was a dictatorship, and he did not allow our people to express themselves. As you know, when he founded his political party, the movement popular de la revolution, the popular movement for revolution. This was, all of us were members of the party, whether you like it or not. And we would be asked to go up in March,

in honor of Mobutu, wearing shirts of his, picture on it and so on. And many of us were professors in Lubbanshi, and we would be insulting him and laughing while we supposedly, you know, talking, I mean, honoring him in this march. He was a person who was really in the love of money that was the most important thing. And he also created this culture of corruption in our country, but he's still making it very, very difficult for our country to move forward. We don't have political leaders who was able to do what we're supposed to be doing, which is using our wealth to improve our country, to make life better for the people and so on.

They have lots of money in their bank accounts around the world, but they don't do anything to fight poverty, to improve schooling, to improve hospitals. We don't even pay the people who work for the country, like medical doctors and university professors and so. And, of course, our ordinary teachers at secondary and elementary school. All of these people paid very, very meager salaries which they can't live on, and they have to restore to finding ways to get money from the students and their parents and all kind of stuff, which is a horrible system. And that was the Mobutu system, which exists. until today. So, of course, your book that I've referenced several times throughout this episode

is titled from Lumumba to Kabila. But instead of covering Kabila and Kabila, yes, two cabillas, today I can announce to the listeners that the supplemental episode on the Congo is also going to be featuring you, Professor, talking about current events that are happening primarily in the eastern part of Congo and starting with Kabila in that episode might be a good starting point to kind of lay the groundwork for the historical background in what is happening today. So we'll save that part of the conversation for the next conversation that we have with you and instead we'll move into kind of the closing discussion for this episode with you, which is talking about the successes, the failures, the lessons.

really of this process of decolonization within the Congo. Because as I mentioned in most, if not all of these episodes within this series, even in unsuccessful movements, there are some things that happen successfully. And we can try to draw some messages out of that. And even within movements that we consider to be quite successful, there are some things that happen during that movement, which are very unsuccessful. And again, we can draw lessons from that. So the point is that there's always successes and failures in every movement. And the decolonial process of the DRC is absolutely no exception to that with some successes. They did come out in an independent country, but we have been talking about some of the failures

throughout this conversation. And perhaps we can drill down a little bit more on what you would see as primary successes and failures of this process and some of the lessons that we can draw today from how that process unfolded. Yeah. Well, there are successes. I think that we'll look at countries like Burkina Faso, Senegal, in spite of the fact that the French still had tremendous influence there. But now we have young people who have taken over and who have now asked the French to remove their troops by the end of this year. And Burkina Faso has no relationship of France whatsoever, the same of Niger and Mali. I think that these are really good examples of countries that other countries in Africa should follow,

that we need to really make sure that we have our sovereignty is very much, important for our countries. We also have to have economic independence. We have so much wealth in our country, and we don't see that wealth doing anything for the people. Why should they do that? Why should we have the Chinese taking over all our minerals and sending them to China and they're not leaving anything of value to us and not doing anything to improve the area where they dig all these minerals and so on. And now we're talking about getting into relationship with United States.

I don't think that Trump is really the good person to do anything with. But anyway, the country is in a terrible situation. right now and they are looking for whatever support they can find. But the major problem has been a lack of making necessary that we have a military that is extremely well organized, well trained, well equipped. Many of our generals are from Rwanda since Doran Kabila came of the Rwandis, came of the Rwandis and the Ugandans in 1996-97, and the Rwandis put in a lot of their soldiers

and officers in our army, and they claim, some of them claim to be Congolese, but they are not. And these people cannot really help us. How can they go and fight their own country, Rwanda? And so we haven't done anything to clean up our military, and also we have lots of generals and colonels who are corrupt and who spend all of their time getting rich and not doing the work they're supposed

to do. So this is really the failure of our governance. by the French, the French version of my book, I said, Fayette de la Governance. I said the failure of governance. That's the title of this book in French. And so as long as that continues, we're not going anywhere. All right.

Well, on that note then, Professor, again, our guest today listeners was Professor George Zongola and Tajula. And it was an absolutely terrific conversation, as I expected. I highly recommend, if you can get your hands on the Congo from Leopold to Kabila, a people's history, that you do so. Professor, in closing. I also read my Lumumba book. Yes, that's right.

You have a book from La Mumba out through Ohio State University Press about, what, 10 years ago or so at this point? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the listeners should also pick up the Patrice Lumumba book, which is titled Patrice Lumumba. So, Professor, is there anything else that you would like to direct the listeners to

or tell them how to find more of your work? Well, I've done a lot of complications. But I think that these two books, and of course I strongly recommend Susan Rice book. This is really the most important book that we have on a particular member

and I think it's a very important book to read. Yeah, absolutely. To those listeners, that is White and Alice. Yep. Yeah. So add that to your list as well. Yes, and we'll try to get in touch with Susan Williams and see if she would be willing to come on the show and talk about

that book. That would be a really great supplemental episode as well. But Professor, Thank you very much for being generous with your time today, and we're looking forward to that next conversation with you as well, which, again, listeners, is going to be picking up with Kabilla and then talking primarily about what is happening in Eastern Congo today. Adnan, I'm going to turn it to you so you can tell the listeners how they can find you and your new show. Well, you can always follow me on Twitter X at Adnan, A-Husain, H-U-S-A-I-N. And, you know, listeners might be interested to follow and watch the other project that I have going on that is on YouTube, so you can find it on YouTube, the Adnan Hussein show, at Adnan Hussein show. Very easy.

Easy peasy. As for me, listeners, you can follow me on Twitter at Huck-1995, H-U-C-K-1-9-95. I'm very sporadically online these days, almost never. So better if you want to keep up with everything that Adnan and I are both doing would be to follow Gorilla History on social media. The show is on Twitter at Gorilla underscore Pod, this G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A-U-R-I-L-A-U-R-R-R-I-L-Hstory. And you can follow. our Substack, GorillaHistory.substack.com.

And I'd like to also just remind you listeners, in closing, that you can help support the show and allow us to continue making episodes like this, both within the African Revolutions and Decolonization Series, as well as our other non-series episodes that come out interspersed every week by going to patreon.com forward slash guerrilla history. Again, G-U-E-R-R-I-L-A history. And on that note, listeners, and until next time, Solidarity. Thank you.