Rev Left Radio - Toward Abolition: Building a World Without Police or Prisons

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

Josh Briond -- from "Millennials Are Killing Capitalism" and "Black Alliance for Peace" -- joins Breht to discuss prison and police abolitionism. Follow Josh on Twitter Follow Radical Theory Check out Josh's writings at the Hampton Institute Outro music 'End of Daze' (feat. Jurdan Bryant, Mereba, and Hollywood JB) by Spillage Village, EARTHGANG, and JID LEARN MORE ABOUT REV LEFT RADIO: www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Hello everybody and welcome back to Revolutionary Left Radio. On today's episode we have on Josh from Millennials Are Killing Capitalism, also at Queer Socialism on Twitter, one of my favorite Twitter accounts to follow. And today we're just going to be talking and thinking through the implications and nuances of abolitionism. You know, police and prison abolition has been a hot topic recently. It's being picked up by corporate media and simultaneously watered down. It's being co-opted by certain liberal forces. And so we thought at this moment in time, it would be helpful for us to provide something for people to grasp on to and try to think through the implications of abolitionism.

And I think that every principle, you know, Marxist, socialist, communist, needs to also be an abolitionist. And sometimes it's hard to know exactly what that means, starting where we are in this hellhole dystopian. known as American capitalism in 2020. So we hope this conversation is helpful. And at the end, there's a bunch of recommendations and resources for people to check out if they want to learn more. So without further ado, let's get into this conversation with Josh on the implications, nuances, and complexities of abolitionism.

Enjoy. I'm Josh, or otherwise, queer socialism on Twitter. I co-hosts a podcast. Millions are killing capitalism. I also am involved with black folks for peace and anti-imperilist group and organization. I also do a lot of political education work. That's actually the bulk of the work that I do offline and online as well, something I emphasize and everything that I do.

And I also run an account, a Twitter account. It's called Radical Theory where we, I try to dissect and provide excerpts for different different academic texts and whatnot in a way that's digestible for most folks. And yeah, I think that's me. Wonderful. Well, it's an absolute honor to have you on the show. Finally, we've had your co-host for Millennials Are Killing Capitalism on for our Move episode. And it's worth saying that Delbert Africa has actually just recently passed after just, I mean, a few months ago in 2019 being led out of prison after 40 years from that move. accident back in the 70s. So it's a tragedy. At least he got to spend the last few months of his

life out of prison, but still, it's just a tragic. It's a tragic way to do a life, yeah. Yeah, Western Power to him, that broke me up a little bit. It was something that was, that hit me kind of hard. But yeah, for sure, that was, it had to have his life taken away that way that he did. But again, like you mentioned, I'm very glad that he spent his last good months free, you know? Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I mean, today we're going to talk about abolition and that's a huge concept so we're going to cover as much as we can hopefully introduce some people who don't know anything about it as well as provide some content for people who do have a fair grasp on it but want to dive a little deeper but before we get into that i kind of want to

ask you like i asked all my guests recently basically how you're doing personally during this pandemic this economic crisis and this world historical uprising and how sort of all of this has affected you as someone who's deeply engaged in political theory and organizing i would say that i am okay. I think I'm feeling a lot of different emotions at the moment, but I'm in a much more comfortable position than a lot of people, so I try not to complain. But I'm excited. I'm hopeful. I'm inspired, and I love so much of what I'm seeing. But I'm also very angry and sad that like the world is what it is. And America, what it is, of course. And we're in the middle of like a fucking pandemic. And our government isn't taking it seriously, and therefore the citizens aren't

taking it seriously. So the next wave, I know, and something I've been talking about recently is how the next wave of the uptick in the positive cases, when it hits, it will be blamed on protests. We blame on Black Last Matter. We blamed on overwhelmingly black people, of course. And that's just unfortunate, I think. But again, I'm feeling a bunch of different emotions. I think everyone is kind of everywhere. There's a lot going on. A lot to be sad about, a lot to be angry about, a lot to be inspired by. And there's just a lot. I think entirely. Yeah, absolutely.

It's hard to sort of see everything in perspective while you're living through it. You know, some hindsight's necessary for clarity. So right now there is this hodgepodge of just intense emotions all along the spectrum. Speaking about the possible COVID increase and the inevitable blame game that will be pushed against Black Lives Matter in these protests, for every protest that I've been in, every rally in the last few weeks that I've been at, people are taking masks incredibly seriously and so much of it is happening outdoors so I'm hoping that that will put a lid on some of the some of the spikes if there is spikes we're two weeks out from the beginning and we haven't seen huge spikes yet so I am staying hopeful Trump on the other hand is having

an indoor rally in Tulsa coming up I think next week or in a few days actually and they're making everybody that walks because this is indoors and you know a lot of them are not going to be wearing masks They're making everybody sign waivers that says the Trump campaign and the venue are not liable for any, you know, COVID upticks because of this rally. But the people that will be liable are the frontline health care workers. So, yeah, this is going to be a disaster overall. Oh, my, yeah. I didn't actually even think about the point about like it being outside so that it may help out. That's a brilliant point, actually.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. For sure. All right, well, let's go ahead and get into this conversation. And to start this conversation off, I was hoping that you could give us sort of a general. general 101 definition of what revolutionaries mean by the term abolition to give people a good starting point for the rest of the conversation for sure yeah so um if i had to define abolitionism um i would say it's a historical process right where uh and that scientific method towards revolutionarily transforming the world as we know of it right and as a historical framework in a

movement it is constantly being advanced constantly being pushed forward um and that's something that we've seen even today we're seeing so many young and people in their 20s, 30s who are advancing the theory and continuing to build upon it. And I think it's super, super important. But something specifically that Fred Moten is Stefan Harney, who I'm about to interview after this conversation actually talks about

is how abolition is not just about the elimination or the abolition of prisons, but the elimination, or again, rather the abolition of a society whose material conditions produce not only the need but the desired of prisons, policing, slavery, genocide, et cetera. So, yeah, so, and as they know, like, abolition is the founding of an entirely new, entirely new society than the one that we see today. I also think of it as a direct descendant from the abolitionist struggle around slavery, right?

In a lot of ways, yeah, in a lot of ways after slavery was abolished, it was pushed on to policing and the carceral state. So it really is a descendant directly from the abolitionists of old. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. It's a perfect comparison and how why we talk about how, like, prisons and policing, as we know of it, their forms are reform, right? Like, we talked about how abolition is, how much of its roots, as we know of it today has started, was rooted in slavery, like anti-slavery symptoms and whatnot. And that continue on. We talk about how prisons are an extinction of slavery, you know, and just like, so yeah, absolutely.

It's just a continuation of such a thing. Who are some of the major abolitionist thinkers that you learn and draw inspiration from? And what have some of their major contributions been to the overall strain of thought we know as abolitionists today? Oh, my. It's a big question. Sorry. Very fun. No, there's been so many that have helped form my understanding of the theory, of the framework.

And I think there are many of the ones who help frame mine don't even identify specifically as abolitionists, but more as a comment. and things like that. But I would say first the first folks that come into mind when it comes to help frame my analysis of the framework for Angela Davis, she was like my, she was my intro, literally, my introduction to it, as she was for many people. Ruth Wilson Gilmore was a really big one for me as well. And George Jackson, who I don't know if he actually identifies abolition specifically, but he was a Marxist, he was a communist. He was a huge, when it comes to the way he theorized around while being in a prison, the way he theorized around like the prison and policing has was influential to my understanding of the way that we cannot reform this system

as we know of this. Absolutely. Angela Davis is a giant in this field and was far ahead of her time with regards to this issue. Absolutely. I'm glad that she's alive still to sort of see the blossoming of this thought and being picked up by so many young radicals in this generation. It has to be a sort of heartening thing, especially after living through the 70s, 80s, and 90s and seeing a real lull in this sort of activity, you know?

Absolutely. And a big thing about her is that, like, it's something I see the last couple days where she has. She's been in a couple of interviews that we've watched. And she's been brilliant. And she's, she's, you can see the light in her eyes. You can see the passion, her voice where she's still talking about it and advancing it today as she was decades ago. You know, and it's like, it's so inspiring to see, actually. And it's like, and she herself, she says she was excited about this moment. That's great. And I'm glad that she noted that because it is. It's like, it's not. It's like, it's not. moaning but it's also a very very fucking scary moment as well and um but yeah it's just i'm i'm glad to be breathing the same time as it's to be breathing and we should all be glad to be living in the wrong at the same time as she is yeah absolutely at the same time that this is a revolutionary moment it's also inherently a moment of counter-revolution of backlash and we're starting to see that as well um that's inseparable from the revolutionary moment you know of course so as always yeah exactly a lot of people I think there are some misunderstanding especially for people that aren't on the the hardcore political left and haven't engaged with this topic before a lot of people when they hear the word you know abolish the police or even defund the police there can be just sort of confusion around what exactly is meant even by well-intentioned sort of people whether they're young or just new to the left overall so what are some of the most common misunderstandings of the abolitionist position in your opinion that you've you've come across and how do you sort of respond to them so we We can give listeners maybe a couple tools that they can use when they're having these

conversations in their own lives. One thing I would say for sure, and I see this on honestly both sides, where it's people who are abolitionists, and I see these from people who are kind of skeptical of it. I see this from people who are just in total rejection of it. But this disbelief that abolition is simply just a merely destruction and chaos, and it is a mere absence of a thing in this institution, which Ruth Wilson Gilmart ties to taught us. It couldn't be further from the truth, right? And I mentioned the other day that I considered abolition to be a scientific method, a scientific process, right? Much like martial

Leninist, much like Pan-Africanist, much like other scientific socialists, see socialism as a scientific first step towards full long communism. Abolition allows us to put our, put on our brain your act caps and imagine a world radically different than the one we find ourselves, pretty if not captive to as we speak. But we have to build the material conditions to achieve that. And as many abolitionists before me have noted, it can't. can't truly ever be done on a white supremacist's patriarchal capitalism. And what a lot of people don't understand is that prisons, again, as I mentioned earlier, prisons are reform, policing is reform, and it's reformed and rebranded from slave patrolling.

It's reformed and rebranded from other forms of oppressive institutions, of course. And we have tried every single possible reform. And it hasn't worked. And so when I and many other discuss abolition, I'm thinking about the abolishing of the current oppressive order. in its entirety. And that means combating and dismantling capitalism and whiteness and patriarchy and all the societal creations and masculinity, manhood, the colonial gender order at large. Because combating these institutions is how we combat the social reactions or, in other

words, violence and crime and whatnot. And that means that it can't be chaos. It can't be just destruction, you know, because there's things we have to answer to. There's societal material conditions we have to answer to, and that's a big thing that we have to think about. Yeah. I love this idea of approaching it scientifically and thinking about it, as you've said, as a historical process instead of an immediate set of demands that are just about tearing anything down without offering that positive vision. And so for people out there who call themselves communist at this moment, it's really a helpful analogy like we're socialist and we're communist, right? We're socialist because we're communist. That's the process by which we get to that. So we're abolitionists in the same sense that we're communist knowing it's a protracted historical process. that we can take steps right now to work toward but knowing that it's not going to come overnight and it's rooted in the material conditions of the society at large. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the big thing. And we see that today. We see so many socialists who are anti-comities. Prenti talked about this, right? We see a lot of people who think, and it's like that is the anti-what Marx and Lennon were theorizing on that. That's not Lennon, but also Engels and other folks. Like when they talk about socialism, it's just a, like, That's just one step, right? It's just a crucial step towards a full advancement to a society where none of these

oppressions exist, right? We don't need prisons or we don't need police. We don't need states. We don't need money. We don't need these things that were created by capital or capitalism needs. Yeah, and extraction plundering the colonial situation, the entire sort of apparatus. And so trying to understand abolitionism outside of a revolutionary critique of all the structures that surround the carceral state in policing

is a common mistake that you'll find, especially among liberals who don't think of things structurally, but maybe think of them in more individualistic or policy-centered terms that take for granted the system as it already is. Right, and the thing is something that I've been seeing more critiques of lately, but how people talk about systemic racism. But they talk about that systemic racism, which I think they're like,

racism is inherently systemic to me, like even like individual cases of it. Like that is systemic. to me. But the point of matter is a lot of people they don't conceptualize the systemic systemic crisis, right? Where how like the system is, like, it's not just saying

that it is just a product of the system, but it's saying that it is inherent to the functionality of set system. And then there's something we don't see often when we talk, especially liberals and radical liberals or whatnot, they talk about the functioning of our order, right? The current world order or whatnot, where

we talk about imperialism and things like that and neo-colonialism and all these different extinctions of capitalism as we see fit. We have to connect that. We had to connect the military to to the former policing. We have to connect these institutions to one another and see that they're all

in one way or another connected. And now a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people think that like you know what I'm saying? There are people even leftists who think that the military is a more positive force than the police are, domestic police are. You're saying that's evidence by the way that like the even domestic police

We have, like, the public opinion of, like, the police here is low, very low. But our opinion of, almost collectively, our opinion of the military is almost overwhelmingly positive. You know what I'm saying? Because their variances aren't indirectly, quote unquote, affecting us, right? It's affecting people, black and brown people in Latin America and the Middle East and in Asia and Africa, right? So it's like, but again, we have to connect all these monists. to one another and understand that this is racialized violence, this is structural violence and these things on one way or another come back together.

There are rooted in capitalism. There are rooted in whiteness, of course. Incredibly well said. And, you know, Engels is famous text, socialism, utopian, and scientific, he makes a point about the bourgeois worldview and how the bourgeois way of viewing and engaging with the world is to view things as sort of isolated, static, discrete objects that you can pick up one at a time and imagine in the dialectical Marxist confrontation. with that bourgeois worldview is to see things structurally, interdependently, interconnectedly.

That's the core basis of dialectics. And so at the core of the Marxist versus the bourgeois world, just the way that you go about envisioning these problems is a huge part, a huge hurdle that you have to get over when you're trying to talk to somebody and lead them down this deeper path. Absolutely. I completely agree. So let's go ahead and move on. And I just want to ask maybe a little strategic question or just how this whole conversation

happens on the corporate media platform. So, you know, as these historical protests and uprisings around the country play out and as demands for serious police reform become more widespread, conversation around abolition has increased in a remarkable way. The downside of this is that it often falls into the hands of liberals in the corporate media, as I said, who watered down its content and even so more confusion around the topic. So how do you view the mainstream conversations surrounding abolition right now? And even if the idea gets watered down in the process. Do you think it's still a positive, in your opinion, to have this idea taken up and wrestled with by so many people who even a few months ago wouldn't even be

capable of uttering the word abolition? So yes, I think it totally can be a positive. But I would say two things. I would say that mainstream political discourse is constantly stagnated. And it is where radicalism goes to die. We've seen this historically speaking. We saw this with Bernie Sanders these last couple years and what he and he and his quote-unquote political revolution did to socialism and his principles, right? He fucking obliterated it, right? And it's like miseducated millions to think his socialism

is just merely free health care and education. But in some ways I was positive. You know, there's some ways I was like of course, like we have to like, again, quote-unquote re-educate some people. But like the point of the matter is it interests of many of us to socialism. And even myself included where

I say all the time, Bernie Sanders didn't radicalize me, but he was my introduction to socialism. He was in 2015 when I first learned about him. Like one of my, I wrote a piece on it, like, last year or something like that, where like, I talk about how someone that was like, oh, why are you voting for him? He's a socialist. And like, I didn't know. At the time, I didn't know what social system meant.

And I googled it. And like, it made, you know what I'm saying? It clicked for me, right? It clicked for me and everything. And it was like, uh, and it was something that I agree with almost instantly. But again, I've talked to plenty of, but ordinary racialized and colonized working class people and folks are desperately seeking it out to this current system, right? That's something I'm seeing constantly, even if they don't realize it yet, ordinary folks now more than ever are open to something radically new, something different, because they know these bullshit reforms are simply just not working, right?

And so as great as it is, it's also, like, liberalism is still, has constantly been, consistently been, consistently been the greatest neutralized to every radical moment or movement, historically speaking. And then we have to realize how it fluctuates and materializes in moments like these. I would say, again, how we started in the first day or two of the protests, specifically in Minneapolis, where it kicked off and re-energized the rest of us. People were getting, people were getting fucking after it, right? People were doing what needed to be done. It was inspiring as hell, and it may have looked chaos in some ways as many uprisings do, but it was organized. It was strategic, and which is Angela Davis's noted, it was separates rebellions from riots or whatnot. But as the media loves to paint these as.

But like, these were due to rebellions, right? These were organized rebellions. But then we saw a lot of display the way the media distorted the imagery and the messaging of the rebellion, right? And it forced a bad protest versus good protesters the economy, this nonviolent versus violent economy, this good cop versus bad cop economy. And it shifted the conversation where instead of folks talking about structural racialized violences that black people face, so many people were debating the morality of violence versus non-violence.

And then there was a shift, again. It was a shift in the not, and many, and not all the action that we were seeing. But we legit, a day or two later after, like, the media did this, we saw cops. We saw, like, legit counterinsurgency tactics being wielded, right? We saw kneeling cops. We saw cops giving him passionate speeches. We saw protesters giving them applause for these speeches. We saw protesters and people on social media snitching and on agitators and stuff, like,

viral tweets, like hundreds of thousands. in the retweets of people snitching on someone like burning something or throwing a brick or like it was that was like odd to me but like yeah and protests is chanting like a big thing I saw that really blew my mind I was on FaceTime with a friend who lives in New York and they

told like they were at a protest and the protests started like chanting peaceful protest like like what the fuck does that have to do with like the with anti-black death you know what does it have to do with like why are you here today you know what I'm saying is though but so much of the energy was again co-opted by

liberalism, as we've seen time and time again, we saw that was Black Last Matter. I can talk about extensively with amongst comrades and friends the last couple of days, how, last couple weeks, about how, like, we have to move past Black Last Matter. We have to move past arguing with people about the semantics of Black Last Matter, and we have to move to something that cannot be denied, you know, Black liberation can't be denied. Black power can be denied. Pan-Africanism cannot be denied, you know, and those things that we can't argue with, you know what I'm saying, but people have stuck on, again, as I mentioned earlier, stagnated on the semantics of quote, Black Last Matter, even though it's a very, very simple, very simple word, like

terminology or whatnot. But again, obviously, there are so many great and positive takeaways and so much to be helpful about, of course. But the fact that many cities, the fact that many cities are still protesting and living class is frightening. They're frightened, right? And we've seen this, we've never seen this just quickly the reaction by politician, police departments, and other forces of capital push out reform as quickly as they have the past couple weeks. Like, we haven't seen, we've never seen politicians and corporations get so quickly to push out like statements and declare their solidarity to the movement, despite the fact, obviously, is a co-op act of course, but like, still, it's a sign of that, that's used as a means

of demobilizing people, right? But again, they're just afraid of that. Inevitable, of course, and we got to make sure we have sustained this energy and turn his moment into a movement. But yeah, it's, so I think it's a little of both. Maybe it's a little positive. Not a little positive, but there's a lot of positives and also like a lot of things that we should be weary about. A lot of things we should be making sure that we're countering. The radicals are countering when it comes to liberalism and whatnot. Yeah, I could not agree more.

And, you know, we should always expect there to be contradictions when class struggle and like the black liberation struggle advances. That's always going to be a part of it. And speaking to your Black Lives Matter, I think they said it's on an other episode recently. I don't know which podcast that was on, but Blake from a hella black pod recently just basically, echoed your sentiment as like, you know, Black Lives Matter is sort of, it's easily co-opted because

you see corporations now being, like, using that rhetoric and stuff. And he's like, it's also sort of weak in that it's asking your oppressor to realize your humanity. And he's like, we need to shift something closer to black power, something that demands and asserts our self-determination, not that asks for our lives just to matter. And of course, all of the shit behind Black Lives Matter is obviously deeply well-intentioned and trying their hardest to absolutely to move the ball forward but you can see when things are so easily co-opted that maybe there is a strategic move away from that rhetoric needs to happen right it reminds me actually of uh i don't know this is a little bit off topic but it reminds me i think i think it's it's the term

it's strategic essentialism i think it was but basically what i'm saying is that like like it was like it was strategic it was a strategic essentialism and whatnot but i think but i think at this point that like it's trying to move beyond it and it's something that a lot of us i know like as well. I love him and he's a dope-ass. He does dope-ass, dope-ass work. We've all, a lot of us has been reiterating the sentiment about us needing to move beyond and can continue to evolve politically. And it's true. I have a lot of critiques for Black Glass Minor. Black Glass-Mondon raised me, was eradicized me, pluticized me in a lot of different ways. And like, I always have love for it. But at the same time, it's like, this moment is different than four or five years ago, I think.

And I think it's more radical. I think it's more, I think people are, I think more people are open to revolutionary games and aims and whatnot. And I think that, but the difference between blackless matter, there was a lot of liberalism that went unchecked, you know. And our requirements, many of us were kids. You know, when I first got involved, I was still a teenager. You know, I was still a kid. And, like, and many of us were.

Many of us were fucking kids. And so, like, we were bombarded with establishment, reformism, just like that. And it's like, but at this point, like, we have to evolve. we have to move forward and we have to move past a simple passivity of simply of telling the ruling class of telling cops of killing, telling agents of the state that like our lives matter, like no more telling them, you know, we have to demand it, we have to demand it and not just demand that they know, but demand that we have power, we have liberation. Absolutely, well said. And yeah, whatever the limits of Black Lives Matter might be, at least over my lifetime, I can't think of, you know, a more sense. successful left wing sort of movement in organization that's really advanced the ball for black liberation or any sort of even like anything on the left broadly like it's one of the most effective movements so far and the fact that that needs to evolve is not a disregarding of

its of its power it's just it's just a hitting its ceiling and now it's time to evolve right right absolutely completely agree um one more thing before i move on to the eight to abolition campaign i just wanted to make this point really quick um talking about you know the the idea of abolition getting watered down in mainstream conversations and the corporate media. You know, whenever there's a radical shift in the Overton window, even on a specific topic like abolition, there's always going to be that sort of attempt at co-option and the watering down of it, et cetera. But it is an advancement.

And so when that Overton window shifts, what happens is new contradictions arise and then there needs to be a clarifying struggle, right? You clarify what socialism means by struggling and reacting to Bernie Sanders is watering down of it. You clarify what abolition means by reacting to and clarifying, you know, how the mainstream media might use it. So while it is very frustrating to see these ideas get watered down the way they are, it's also indicative of the fact that they are just spreading around the country so quickly and that it's our job as educators and radicals to struggle and clarify what those things mean and demarcate those lines. And so it's a positive way of looking at it. For sure. Absolutely

completely agree with that. Cool. So I just kind of want to get your thoughts and you just had a recent episode on millennials are killing capitalism with some of the founders of the eight to abolition campaign which arose as a radical response to the very liberal reformist eight can't wait campaign i was just wondering what your thoughts are on that entire sort of point counterpoint and what your thoughts are on the efficacy or the legitimacy of the eight to abolition campaign specifically so yeah j j and i did interview the organizers and think he's behind the eight to abolition campaign last week um and i honestly i quite I love it.

Like, I absolutely love it. I think it's needed. And, of course, there has been some, some criticism of it because they kind of, like, I've seen people claim it that as reductionists or something like that. And, like, some of the criticism are valid and some are not, but the format of, like, simply defunding, demilitarizing, removing police from schools, freeing people from jails and prisons and repealing laws that criminalize survival and invest in community and self-governance and provide housing and invest in care, not cops.

And that provides a simple and simplistic outlook for what organizers and activists can demand now, right? Like, these are fairly feasible first steps, right? These are like, and these, a lot of people, they would say that these are reformist steps. And in some ways, they maybe are, you know what I'm saying? But we can think about it, again, as a scientific method, like on the road towards, you know what I'm saying,

building towards full abolition, of course. And, like, these are things what we're able to achieve, like we can achieve that now that's what I mean and again it's ways that we can focus on and again building not just the material conditions but the consciousness of people where we can truly begin to imagine

a world beyond pre-leasing prisons and so I personally enjoyed it and I think it allowed a lot of people to visualize what that, like what it could look like today and what it could look like tomorrow what it could look like in a couple months where it like next year you know and it's like it was again

You can argue that is a little too simplistic or whatever, but it's just a lot to take away from it. I saw a lot of people reposting it on social media. People who would not otherwise open to abolition as openly as they are now, like, people were agreeing with that. People were like, even saying because it provides a framework for moving forward. Yeah, it's incredibly, it's incredibly clarifying. And again, it's one of these situations where you're drawing the line. So there's this immediate attempt to, you know, by the liberals to sort of co-opt this movement into the eight can't wait. And then there has to be a response by the radical left to say, we see what you put on the table and here's what we're responding with.

And that for all the people in the middle or all the people still trying to figure out what side they're on, it's an incredibly clarifying experience. And the quickness with which the eight to abolition campaign responded to eight can't wait, right? So whatever minor little details you might want to change or criticisms is so easy to make, the fact that it was so quickly created, in such a principled way by really engaged, you know, on-the-ground organizers is a beautiful thing. And I'm just like you, 100% in support of it. If at the very least, what it does is expand people's political imagination and gives the abolitionist response to the reformist attempt at co-option. Absolutely. And I think that because even like I have my own personal issues with Durei, of course.

But like, but beyond that, I think that. what he was doing was specifically harmful, just in general, like, this is something, and the fact that he, like, it was shown that he, like, he changed his website to say that this, like, the eight can't wait proposals were, like, a first step towards abolition, which was like, he was liberally co-opting, literally co-opping. And, like, his organization, I won't say the name, but his organization is, like, backed and funded by Obama, if I'm not mistaken. And, and a lot of a lot of unliberal elites and such like that. And that whole techno, tech fascist bullshit that they do, where they do like data-backed policing or somebody. I don't know. Just like, it's really weird and like really counterproductive and I'm not a fan of it at all.

But it's like, again, it's a co-opting tactic. And we have to recognize that for this. We have to like call it what it is. And we have to like make sure that. And so I'm still glad that they did it and the fashion that they did it. And I think they did it maybe like a day or two after his came out. And yeah, so it was needed. it was like it was a great way to counterate because like if they didn't do it who would have

so i'm i'm supporting it of course yeah exactly and you know you said it's harmful and it's specifically harmful in that it says that the eight can't wait campaign is the step toward abolition uh when it is in a lot of ways reifying the very obstacles to abolition that we're trying to tear down you know right and and another thing too is that like again as many people first of all they like misused sociological statistics like as someone who who graduated with a sociology, like, sociology degree. Like, I saw that from the beginning, but, like, a lot of people, it noted how, like, the, like, the, like, this, I think it was, like, was, like, 72, the crease state,

by, like, it was, like, police violence or police murders by, like, 72% like that. It was really weird. That was a really weird number. And then how they come into that number, I can't really go into detail right now, but, like, how they went into the number, it was really, like, in bad faith. And it was, like, a terrible. It was a misuse of stats. And, like, it was, like, it was awful.

But, like, yeah, it's, it's a mess. And I think that we have to see this. Again, we have to recognize liberalism when we see it and make sure we counter it. And that's exactly what the A to Appalachian campaign does. Absolutely. That's the duty of radicals now more than ever. Right. So assuming that the road to abolition will be a long one, you know, and the Ate to Abolition campaign gets at this in a lot of ways too, but maybe you can maybe dive a little deeper in some of your favorite ones, you know, what are some practical first steps that revolutionary organizations or even society as a whole can take that you.

you would support as movement in the generally correct direction towards abolition, knowing full well that it is a protracted historical process. So, first of all, like, one thing that I mentioned with like the abolition campaign is that how they provide a framework that allows people to be eased into abolition. You know what I'm saying? We can be eased into envisioning a world without police, right? And like, so with that, I think we need political education. Right? That's a huge thing to me. That's a big thing that I focus on. But with that, we need revolutionary organizations to be staples in our communities so that folks are just coming into our communities and throwing a communist manifesto book at them and leaving back to their gentrified neighborhoods, of course. But being and leaving those community members to continue struggling or whatnot. But like we need to be providing material mutual aid, food, housing, child care, clothing, health care, et cetera, as well as the revolutionary political education. Those things go hand in hand. That's something that the black panel.

There's stressed so, so much, right? Was that those things are inextricable from one another. And, again, build infrastructure so that we can be an alternative so many of capitalism, most oppressive institutions. And we had to show folks that something different and radical and far better than our current situation is possible. And I think that, again, going back to the abolition, that that's what allows, I mean, that's what I think it can help

in so many different ways providing that framework. And I think this moment showed that we can mobilize a people and people who are willing to show up. millions of ordinary people were donating to bail funds and mutual aid funds. So why couldn't we can't sustain that energy? Why can't we put our resources together and even keep the pressure on celebrities as we have to even doing and to open up their purses and their wallets and it can't just be a one-time, but a reoccurring thing, like and have folks as a community donating

$5 to $10 a month to an organization that that is our feeding and housing and clothing or helping pay bills for the for the house list or whatnot or what of the case is right and it's like of course it'll take a lot of effort but i think we can do that now these are things we can do now i think and um another thing i would say is uh is people always think the only way to get and be involved is to be on the ground or to be at the front lines and i truly don't believe that i think everyone has a place and not everyone's places to be on the front lines and um that was something i had to realize a couple years ago and it helped me find my purpose right where it's like where we where we need revolutionary mechanics and revolutionary electricians and nurses and cooks and doctors and paramedics

and engineers and artists and teachers and whatever any like any really career or driven or any job really we're like that that's what we need we need folks who want to dedicate their lives to the movement and people willing to even if it's for a handful of hours a week being in service of community and another movement at large and beyond that I think that the funding the demilitarizing and disarming de-legitimizing the police are things that we can aspire to right now As, again, as the abolition campaign noted, those are things if you ask me we can achieve tomorrow if we really, if we really wanted to. If we really wanted to keep our foot on the necks of these politicians and these police departments and whatnot, we can kick these peaks out of our communities. We can we can keep them out of our schools and we're seeing it now. Right now we're seeing the reaction.

We're seeing the fact that last night, APD, 50% of the department were going on quote strike or not. like we're seeing these reactions across the country and like things are possible anything can be possible at this point absolutely i love those responses the idea of all of us having a role is so essential it's something i push constantly because i struggle with it in my own head and i think a lot of left a lot of left organizers do where no matter how much they're doing and they're doing more than 99.9% of people in the country they still feel like they have more to do they're not doing enough and that could really lead to, you know, sort of burnout and just self-doubt and a bunch of different bad things. So, you know, telling people you don't have to do everything, you don't have to be good at every aspect of organizing, you've got to find how you can contribute and double down on that.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. And the dual power aspect of continuing to ramp up our organizing, solving problems in our communities ourselves, really prefiguring the sort of world we want to see through our activism on the ground is an essential aspect of this. And then just one more aspect, and this is a tiny piece and a huge puzzle, but it's something for one reason or another I've started thinking about a lot in the last week or so, is any sort of reforms that take traffic stops out of the hands of police because time and time and time again with Philando Castile, Sandra Bland, you can go down the list of people where innocuous traffic stops were the point of contact with the police officer that ended in brutality, murder, etc. if we could wipe out police from having to deal with minor traffic infractions and never having to create those moments of contact with the pigs, I think that, again, just a tiny piece in a big puzzle, but a one that is reasonable that people could get behind even on a reformist level and it could take us in the correct direction, right?

Completely agree. Absolutely agree. And I was thinking back to your earlier point, like one thing that Jay stresses actually my comrade and friend and co-host when he talks about how like just about anything you do can be revolutionary if it's done the right way when it's done the right circumstances right where it's done the right the right conditions and for the right people right and like um and like what he mentioned I think just yesterday he talked about like how making sandwiches can be revolutionary right if it's done correctly but it's done if it's done for the people right and I think that um that's a huge thing

we have to continue stressing and continue emphasizing um the need for more people to be um engaged it's a revolutionary struggle. And at the end, going back to what I said earlier about revolutionary organizations is that I think a lot of what we're seeing now in the streets were not. Like people thought, like there were people who thought like the Minneapolis protests

were unorganized. Again, like I mentioned, they thought it was like just chaotic. It was, I'm saying, but Minneapolis is the one of the most organized places in the country, right? It is one of the most, and that's why they were able to do what they did so strategically, so meticulously,

so meticulously the way they did it and so quickly as, right? And it's like, They were able to do that because they were organized. And I think they had their organizations, their groups had or a staple in those communities where they got a response, direct response from said community, right? And I think a lot of organizations were seeing in different places, different cities across the country. They don't have that, right? We're like, we're seeing a lot of liberalism flourish.

We're seeing these big, these large protests, but they're reformists, but they're marching with cops, but they're kneeling with cops. but they're even saying they're allowing cops to have a positive, quote, positive presence there and whatnot. And I think that if we have these organizations, the organizations can stress the political demands can stress, the political aims for whatever movement, for whatever protest, for whatever demonstration, we would see less of this liberalism that is unfettered and unchecked or whatnot.

Yeah, great, great point, you know, like that already existing organization on the ground in Minneapolis allowed not only. the protests to pop off, be directed, but to literally chase the pigs out of their own precinct, invade it, burn it to the ground, and then still demand that they meet their reforms. And now, you know, for whatever its limitations, the Minneapolis City Council is talking about some version of like, you know, stripping down their police force. They called abolishing the police. It's never going to be that. But, you know, just look what Minneapolis did and what their city council is doing versus

what the cities or towns that did the more peaceful. Let's dance and kneel with cops. and absolutely nothing coming to them from their local government, you know? Right, and it reminds me, I think it was, I'm pretty sure I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was Phoenix, I think it was. And it was, it was some guy that was like,

he was a gentrifier. Like he was sitting, he wasn't from the city, but he came in and he, like, he was like shouting out his pro, like, shouting out his Instagram name. Oh my God, I did say that. And like, yeah, it was just like a mess.

It's like, some like that, I think that, like, we have more organizational structure. We have, we have people, we have this organization, that's connected with the people and they're like the way you be connected with people as I mentioned earlier is that you have to serve the people and one way or another do something for the people and so they know you and you're a staple in there the community and whatnot you can't just be showing up

when something when something tragic happens and just thinking that you're going to lead if you're not you're not a partner's but they're not going to follow you you know what I'm saying they're not just to follow you if you're not a staple already in those communities people are not idiots yeah i i think it was your tweet that you dunked on the opportunist clown and i think i retweeted it because it was a it was a good dump but yeah that idea of just reifying individualism like i'm taking over this march so that i can get my follower account i was like shut the fuck up you know and that the the opportunist infiltration of protest whether consciously or unconsciously is happening in every city this attempt by people who aren't in these struggles aren't in these organizations but want to be the hero at the time of

of the cameras on you know absolutely another thing too i think i think i think some of these people like some people can be me well-meaning too i think some people can be like like they can be newly politicized by an action, right? And we're like, it's reactive, of course, which there's limits to that. But like, some people, like, again, they are new to struggle to, like, protesting. And those people that you have to bring in, too, those people you should be recruiting to your organization. Those people you should be trying to radicalize and stuff. And I think there means to be more emphasis on that as well.

Yeah, I think most of it is actually out of naivete and innocence and not just like some cynical, you know, scheming and plotting necessarily. I saw at a Black Lives Matter protest I think last week that I was at here in Omaha just a younger man, you know, a black guy probably late teens, early 20s at the absolute oldest and you could tell the rage

and the feelings that he was emoting were deeply sincere and rooted in personal experience but you could also tell that he didn't have the political education so he started chastising other people at the protest for you know being like saying fuck 12 and he would stop and he said no no stop saying fuck 12 we need these police and stuff and so

you can see that his heart's in the right place and his experiential sort of portfolio knows what's going on, but given the lack of education, he's actually actively derailing and de-radicalizing out of his own control and unconsciously the overall movement at that moment. And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. He just needs education, you know. Yeah, of course, absolutely. All right, so one more question, then we'll get to recommendations, and this is a tough question, but I like to ask it. So in an ideal future society where policing and prisons have been abolished, what forms of justice and rehabilitation might exist? And I know, as I said, this is highly speculative and perhaps

impossible to answer, but I also think it's important to bolster our critique with a positive vision of what the world could look like. So what are some of your initial thoughts on what transformative justice might be in the future? Okay. Yeah, actually, actually we love this question. Honestly, and a lot of abolitionists don't like answering these types of questions. They understandably slow because they're often acts in bad faith, of course, but because none of us really have a truly perfect answer for this, right? Like, we don't know the future. We don't know everything.

We just have to study the conditions. We have to study history. And that's how we figure out what we know so far. And for me, I just know just about anything would be better than its current system, right? But to quote myself, and I wrote this in an article that I just released where, like, justice is under racial capitalists in a possibility. It is an ideological and liberal mystification, the scarcity in the realm of political imagination

that neoliberalism champions leads to reality in which many people's analysis to understanding of justice is merely individualized imprisonment or indoor tippet at best, be liberal reforms. So I think that's what we're seeing now and that's what we're dealing with now. People's understanding of justice looks an awful lot like calling on the imprisonment or the indictment

of a killer cops, which is a natural reaction, That's a natural thing, specifically under the system ideologically where we are ingrained into the system ideologically, of course. But that sentiment legitimizes the system, right? Like, we can all collectively admit and agree that this system is fundamentally violent and awful while we try to further legitimize it and calling it a win if and when we do so. So again, we have to imagine something truly beyond it, right? We have to imagine something much better than this. And this is why I say, I love this question, because it allows us to truly think about the endless. possibilities of what the world can look like.

So to me, justice is a world without constant violence, right? Like, it's a world where we don't have to, or we don't have police violence, we don't have property, we don't have sexual assault, we don't have rape, we don't have other forms of racialized, gendered, or sexual violences. And I think that's what matters to me, far more than any individual, individual, quote, sentiment of justice. Often when we talk about rehabilitation and transforming justice, what we're doing, we're talking about systemically re-educating people and providing folks with resources

in preventing harm, as best as we can. And again, that means a lot more than even assuming and accepting that X form of bonuses is inevitable and it's going to happen, which, of course, it isn't. And formatting how we're going to deal with it after it already happens. So, again, I think to me, it's more so preventative measures. Yeah. And one thing I think we can all agree on is that the radical abolitionist approach to crime is to, you know, solve the underlying social conditions, the material conditions that give rise to

most crime, you know, lack of housing, lack of life opportunity, lack of investment in the community and the community's investment in you, a million different things that contribute to the desperation that fuels most crime. And then I also think that when we're talking about restorative or transformative justice, however you like to put it, I think a big defining line and one that's at least helped me conceptualize a lot of this is the difference between accountability and punishment, because you can be punished without any real accountability. And you can be accountable to a community without necessarily being punished in the ways we think of currently. But in any context, sort of expanding your political imagination beyond the realm of prisons and police

and trying your hardest to think deeply about what could exist instead is an important sort of procedure that we all need to be undertaking as much as we possibly can at this moment. Absolutely. Completely agree. So, yeah, a very difficult question, but I hope people are thinking through the implications. Well, Josh, thank you so much for coming on. As I said, I'm a big fan of your work overall. You're one of my probably top three people to follow on Twitter for those who haven't followed you.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. And before I let you go, just maybe a recommendation or two that you'd offer to any listeners who maybe want to dive deeper into this whole concept and the abolitionist theory, and then where listeners can find you and your work online. Of course. I would say recommendation-wise, anything by Ruth Wilson-Gilmore,

Andrew Davis, Mary M. Kappa, George Jackson, et cetera. I would just recommend people read Blacker, Black Revolutionaries, Black Abolitionists, start with Angela Davis, our president is absolutely abolition of democracy. If they come in the morning, et cetera, and those are perfect, I think, the perfect introduction text that would feed your mind and help you develop the analysis you need to actually engage in this struggle. But folks can find me at queer socialism or in my podcast, Millons killing capitalism or M-A-K capitalism, that's the ad name.

And I also run, again, as I mentioned earlier, I also run a Twitter account where I post-radical theory and educational stuff, excerpts from all types of books and academic texts in a way that I'm hoping is digestible to folks at radical theory. And I also recommend just tapping in with your local radical, emphasis on radical, by the way, organizing your city or nearby city,

form of community, struggle and build, because there's so much possible here and we're so much helpful about and this system as we're seeing is vulnerable and waiting to collapse is almost inevitable but what's not inevitable is what it will look like afterwards

so we got to make sure it's whatever it's come next it's for us and it's for the people of course yeah amen well thank you so much Josh for coming on I look forward to working with you again keep up the amazing work

you too thank you thank you It's the end of days In the time My oh my In the blaze You can hide Why are the kids afraid

Mama cries God packed this bag And said bye bye bye Got packed the bags And said bye bye bye Wow wow wow For it's all said and done I'm gonna spend this money

For it's all said and done I'm gonna fuck these holes and I ain't pull it Now shit, but the chopper, though. I end the week like Domingo and Sabado. No petty shit when you can see. It's bigger problems, bro. But I'm a nigga. I kid you.

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It if you're bad, you never smash, for y'all both die. Let the smoke rise. Take the bodies to the crips. And when the poor people run out of food, they can eat the rich. Plea for fifth Brot one Zombies on the block See I come with a shot

Like Siak of my pop I got this block For my pops It makes the parking lot stop We on the clock in time Tock and have you Forgotten that it's You're in the days

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You said bye Bye bye Got back the past and said bye-bye Wow It's been like apocalypse since I was on the teat Making work for saying how he prayed upon the meek Ask too many questions Do you work for the police

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that we can save me with his bravery we need better defense who is my safety in the field when people kill family to make a player I had 26 years on earth I made a way from the other side from where they pop and willies to the sun go down

it's always love when I come around there's nothing up seen it coming since the ultrasound a man of the cloth cold criminal minded carpet on the move I bill a cool cut force fair all of the rules paid all of the dudes I need the receipts I need the recouped like the Lord left the room Dead bodies rising from the tomb

Damn Daniels we're fin to meet our MF do Mask on mask all face the future like high news The news keep on saying we'll die soon Sit back and roll up to my tunes And if I'm gone before the end of the song Just tell my mom I ain't get rich yet But I tried to Shit I need a new planet to fly to

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Got back the bags and say bye-bye Bye-bye Bye-bye Hey, yeah. Hey, yeah, yeah. heavens in the sky start to cry as we look for love dying deep inside only kisses and empty us why do we live on the surface when our hearts search for the deep please forgive me babe I'm nervous scared to go to sleep perfection is the goal these days but I want something pure

All the life throws our eyes A love that will endure