Rev Left Radio - Uprisings in the Sahel: AFRICOM, Neo-Colonial Imperialism, and Pan-African Liberation

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Nicholas Richard-Thompson and Tunde Osazua from the Black Alliance for Peace join Breht to discuss AFRICOM, or The United States Africa Command - responsible for U.S. military operations and imperialism on the continent. Together they discuss the ongoing conflict in Palestine, the connections between black liberation movements and palestinian liberation, BAP's Month of Action against AFRICOM, recent coups in West Africa, developments in Burkina Faso, Mali, and Niger, the recent history of Libya, the role of French neo-colonialism on the continent, the revolutionary contributions of Patrice Lumumba and Kwame Nkrumah, and much more!      Learn more and support Black Alliance for Peace    Follow Nicholas on Twitter    Follow Tunde on Twitter   BAP Chicago's Twitter Check out Rev Left's episode on Thomas Sankara Revolution in Sahel?   Get 15% off any book from Leftwingbooks.net    outro music 'Terrorist?'  by Lowkey Support Rev Left Radio  or make a one time donation: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/revleft

Hello everyone and welcome back to Rev Left Radio. On today's episode, I have two members from the Black Alliance for Peace, Tunday and Nicholas, on to discuss the sort of coups, military coups, and the revolutionary processes happening in particular in the Sahel and in Western Africa. We talk about Niger, we talk about Mali, we talk about Burkina Faso, we talk about Afro, we talk about Afrocom, we talk about French-Ni, colonialism, and together they really help make sense of current events over the last year. They promote the Black Alliance for Peace's Month of Action against Africom and much, much more. These are two wonderful, deeply informed comrades who are really principled and they help us understand these events as they unfold, which oftentimes gets blocked out by the other things that are happening, the proxy war in Ukraine against Russia, as well as now this new war that

Israel has declared on Palestine. And so sometimes we don't hear about or don't have a good understanding about what's happening on the African continent. And lots of things are happening. And so they're here today to help us understand that it's a really crucial, really wonderful conversation. Hats off to them in Black Alliance for Peace for all the amazing work that they do. And I also wanted to remind listeners that we have a wonderful little collaboration going on with left-wing books in Chris Blebeladeb, offering all RevLeft listeners 15% off any purchase of their books. They sell wonderful, wonderful left-wing books, Marxist Revolutionary, Theory, History, history, et cetera. They have a wonderful collection. And at checkout, if you type in Rev. Left,

you get 15% off anything in the store. And if you're in North America, I believe, they wave and you spend over $50. You get the shipping cost. completely waived. So this is just a wonderful opportunity to get really important texts into the hands of my listeners at less cost. And I'm really thankful to Left Wing Books for helping us make that happen. So a link to that in the show notes. And in fact, you don't even have to go through and click type in Rev. Left or anything. I'll provide a link in the show notes that immediately puts in that discount for you so you don't even have to worry about it. But shouts out to them definitely go check them out and their their library of books is always growing so so go check

it out get informed absolutely all right without further ado here is my conversation with tunday and nicholas from the black alliance for peace enjoy my name is nicholas thompson i am the black alliance for peace midwest organizer yeah and my name is tunday assazua i am on the coordinating committee of the black alliance and peace and the outreach coordinated. Wonderful. As I was saying before we started recording, it's a pleasure and honor to have you both back on. I'm a huge fan of everything that BAP does, and I know you've both been on before.

Longtime listeners will remember a previous episode on Afri-com, probably a year ago at this point, where both of you were on discussing that. And so we're going to return to that topic, but we're also going to touch on different things, and we're going to touch on developing global events, particularly in West Africa, in the Sahel region, etc. that have really popped off in the last year or so since the last time we talked. But first and foremost, you know, I did want to discuss the escalating war on Palestine. It's the number one sort of issue in the world right now. All lies are on Palestine. And we will be talking about neo-colonialism in Africa and a bit. And I wanted to sort of try to tie these

struggles together. So as a first question, what are your thoughts on what's going on in Palestine, what are the connections between the Palestinian liberation struggle and the liberation struggles of the past and present in Africa? Yes, so, you know, first and foremost, again, thank you for having us on. This is the very historic and unprecedented moment for numerous reasons, as you mentioned, many coupons and it's a heel, anti-colonial anti-imperial anti-imperial sentiments, but also the genocide is taking place in Gaza and had the escalating situation over 75 years has been taking place, right? And I think in this moment, it is important to recall and revisit,

you know, the long historic black and Palestinian solidarity that has been very present, even in this moment, years past. And, you know, one of the things that I do want to say first is, you know, Black Lives for Peace, our national put out a statement, Black Lives for Chicago put out a statement, I'm pretty sure Atlanta did in other chapters. And what we want to make unequivocally clear is that we support Palestinian self-determination, and by any means necessary. And that part actually caught us some heat from a press and other organizations, Zionists. And what we want to make, you know, clear for a lot of folks is the history between black folks and the imperial core and the periphery and history of Palestine is deeply intertwined, not just because we exist in

federal colonies, but also the resistance to it. So you can go far back and you can look at some of the ways that black people have been criminalized and black is, you know, synonymous with criminal. In the same way, Arabs have been criminalized and synonymous with terror. You know, those strategies are very similar. But even beyond that, you know, when we look at someone like Michael Mex, who was a strong proponent of internationalism and spoke out and has a very notable piece called Zionist logic, which I, you know, encourage anybody to go read into. And it's very relevant to today, speaking about the colonial logic of Zionism and some of the escapism that folks who are in support of Israel aren't even aware of some time that the explicit

colonial logic of what Zionism actually is, right? So, you know, look at the history from Malcolm X, folks like the League of Revolutionary Black Workers, which was in Detroit, and it was, you know, black and Arab auto workers who came together and participated in wildcast strikes. When you look at, in 2014, right, I remember organized to be on the ground and hear it from Palestine or from Ferguson to Palestine occupation of the crime, right? Drawing these deep connections to the similarities, but not just in similarities in our experience, but the strategies, right? So one thing I'll highlight is this, and I've said this before, is that the struggle we

wage is global, and our enemy is organized. Our enemy, the United States, trains, and funds Israel and vice versa. Versa, the Delhi exchange program through $3 billion annually, which is a blank check that has amendments to it from the U.S. to Israel. They are in lockstep even in, you know, ideologically, politically. So, thus, I think the response needs to be for black folks and Palestinians to also be in lockstep. And, you know, that has been the case, right?

In 2014, you know, Ferguson, while, you know, protesters were fighting against, you know, militarized police tactics, body tear gas, and other, you know, a lot of, like, violent tactics that they got from Israel. Palestinians were in support talking to Black Lives Matter protesters on how to deal with that, how to respond to those different tactics because they had experienced them while they were being besiezed in Gaza at the time, right? So, you know, there is a lot of coordination just politically and strategically that is a value, but just historically, right?

Right. I think it is important to talk about all the moments of solidarity that have been exchanged between Palestinian, you know, liberation and their self-determination and black folks here, right? And the struggles are distinctly different for many purposes. We'd be irresponsible not to say that they're different. But the parallels that we can draw and understanding how our, I think our struggles are interlinked, not just in a political way, but in a way of how we get free, right, in a very serious way. So, you know, not just bonding over bond. and our shared suffering, but looking at both of our struggles at interlock, that victory for us is victory for you and vice versa. And that has been the case. And, you know, what's going on there is, it's terrible, it's tragic, it's heartbreaking. But in a lot of ways, I can't steal from the resistance of it and how it also is galvanizing, I believe. And we should see hope in it because resistance is survival. But resist breeds repression in this current arrangement. And it should to be expected. You know what I mean?

So all love and power to that movement and as it develops and, you know, we don't want to see more casualties. But again, 75 years of violent occupation and apartheid state, this is the result of that and nothing else more. The result of that and a Zionist project and, you know, the Black and Lives of Peace, we stand in solidarity with the people of Gaza and all Palestinians under occupation and that race is apartheid, settler state. and we were calling on all African and black folks all over to remember that

large tradition that I just spoke to briefly, you know, dive into it deeper and understand that, you know, our struggles are interlock. Yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. Tunday, do you have anything to add to that or anything to talk about regarding the Black Liberation Movement in the United States in particular in their relationship with the Palestinian Liberation Movement? Absolutely. And, you know, thanks, again, for having us.

I think my comrade, Nick, put it very well, very, very succinctly. But I'll just add really quickly, you know, we in the Black Lives for Peace understand ourselves as part of, you know, global anti-colonial struggle, right? And that's very much in line with, you know, the historical positions that have been articulated by forces and structures within the radical black. Lubbant, Nick mentioned Malcolm X, right, and how he articulated a consciousness of, you know, the Arabic population in historical

Palestine as being dispossessed and also as being the people under colonial occupation. I'll point also to SNCC, right? The student nonviolent coordinating committee who articulated a powerful pro-Palestinian response to the 1967 war, right?

They printed in their newsletter, a primer, on Palestine, They really articulated that war as a war of colonial occupation and identified the Palestinians as part of global anti-colonial struggle, just like we'd be, you know, in the Black Lives or peace say that Africans in the U.S., right, are part of the African nation, or part of, are connected to Africans worldwide, and Africans worldwide are part of that global anti-colonial struggle, right? And we can even look to the Black Panther Party, right, who took very pro-Palestinian position. especially with the emergence of Palme Terey also or formerly known as Stokely Carmichael who spoke out in favor of the Palestinian pahas and they did a lot in terms of, you know, uplifting Palestinian struggles,

training with Palestinian fighters, right? And, you know, really showing a material form of solidarity. The Panthers even use the image of Lela Khaled of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. They used an image of her, like an image of a woman fighter carrying a gun. So they understood the very clear connections how our struggles are intimately linked and how we can bust support each other. And I think that really encapsulates a vast position.

And Nick, I know put it well as well. Definitely. Definitely. And, you know, one of the things that stuck out to me over the last several years is I remember when the Black Lives Matter movement popped off in 2020. In 2021, if we remember, there was a. a big flare-up conflict between, of course, the Palestinians and the apartheid Israel State, bombings happened, et cetera. And I remember those two movements happening in a very quick succession,

2020 to 2021, such that I remember seeing Palestinian flags at Black Lives Matter protest. I remember when the Palestinian conflict in 2021 flared up, just on the heels of Black Lives Matter, a lot of people in the West that were participating in that or were sympathetic to the Black Lives Matter movement were being educated on the Palestinian struggle. So it's like a fascinating historical connection that goes very, very deep in the political educational process, especially over the last couple years, has seemed to really be intertwined with one another. And I think we're seeing right now in the West in particular and in the U.S. specifically, you know, unprecedented support for Palestine. People are no longer being browbeaten into, you know, this language of you support

the terrorists, you know, Israel is a right to defend itself. You're an anti-Semitism. My people are not falling for that in the way that they fell for it in the past, in part, I think, especially here in the U.S., through the Black liberation struggle and the many manifestations that it has expressed itself in. So I think that's a beautiful thing. And I just want to quickly read just a very quick quote, and we'll move on to the topic at hand today. But from Huey Newton as a representative of the Black Panther Party when he went to the Middle East, he said, this is a quote from Huey Newton. We realize that some people who happen to be Jewish and who support Israel will use the Black Panther Party's position that is against imperialism and against the agents of the imperialist as an attack of anti-Semitism. We think this is a backbiting, racist, underhanded tactic, and we will treat it as such. We have respect for all people, and we have respect for the right of any people to exist.

So we want the Palestinian people and the Jewish people to live in harmony together. We support the Palestinians just struggle for liberation 100%. We will go on doing this. and we would like for all of the progressive people of the world to join our ranks in order to make a world in which all people can live. And I think that really sort of puts the cherry on top of this brief discussion we have. And hopefully it encourages listeners to dive deeper into that beautiful, beautiful history of solidarity. But with that said, let's go ahead and move into the topic at hand today, because this October is the annual Black Alliance for Peace's Month of Action against Africom. And I know you were on last year talking about this, but, you know,

Of course, we have new listeners and young people who are just tuning in. So can you kind of remind our audience what AFRICOM is and its relationship with French imperialism and neo-colonialism in Africa in particular? Sure. I can go first. And I'm sure Nick and fill in any gaps. But, you know, we understand AFRICOM. Well, Afriacom is the U.S. Africa Command, right? Like, Afriacom is the shorthand. And really, it's one of 11 U.S. military commands, right? Like the U.S. has divided the world up into these various military command structures. There's Afrikaum in Africa. You know, there's Southcom and Latin America and the Caribbean, what we call it. And then there's also

Northcom in, you know, Europe, Western Europe. There's Sancom in the so-called Middle East or West Asia. But, you know, essentially Africa is that the instance or the representation of the U.S. military on the African continent. And we, in the black lives of peace, we understand that the purpose of Africa as being, you know, to use U.S. military power to impose U.S. control over African land, resources, and labor to service the needs of U.S. multinational corporations and the wealthy in the U.S. And, you know, it's all part of this broader structure of neocolonialism and imperialism, right?

So essentially, you know, Africa is, you know, a strategically, important region or countenant, right? And the U.S. Department of Defense decided in 2007 the Africa was necessary because of that importance, right? It's rich in resources. You know, there's a lot, it's a large landmass. There's, you know, strategic, I guess, trade routes. And, you know, it's just essentially located in an important region. So, you know, the Department of Defense decided that Afrikaans was necessary. It's not like there wasn't, you know, U.S. military presence on the continent before that,

but Afrikan kind of came together and, you know, better coordinated their forces. And it was, you know, kind of ideated in 2007 and they were preparing for it. It was officially launched in October of 2008. Under George Bush,

towards the end of his presidency, we understand that it was really under Obama, that the Afrika was able to establish partnerships or, yeah, basically partnerships with African countries all over the continent. Right now, 53 out of 54 African states or countries have military-to-military relationships with the United States and with Africa. And really, it's this whole thing is about making sure that the U.S. and its allies, right? The European forces, France, other NATO countries are able to, you know, achieve their strategic

interests, right, and their goals and objective, right? And, you know, have unfettered access to Africa's natural resources via the confrador neo-falonial partners, right? Like the, you know, forces like, you know, the heads of state, right? We understand that the leaders of countries like, you know, Rwanda and Uganda and Nigeria are our key partners for Africa. And, you know, as referenced in our principles of unity and as we're supposed, to earlier, right? We in BAP take a resolute anti-colonial and anti-careless position that links, right, the international role of the U.S. empire, which is based on war, aggression, and exploitation to the domestic war against war and working class black people here in the U.S.

And so, you know, we, we see important to connect, you know, the workings of Africa with, you know, the workings of these militarized police forces here in the United States. And, you know, through this month of action, we're, you know, emphasizing the importance of, you know, the liberation of francophone Africa and also demanding that the U.S. and NATO exit Africa. And so, you know, that's really what this left of action is about to raise the awareness and start to organize against this force to demand the African government shut down. My comrade brilliantly explained that I would add a little bit of context also. As long as that, part of our analysis is linking the international.

occupation, violence, exploitation, to the domestic, right? So in similar fashion, when we look at imperialism, it should also be seen not only as a global manner, just coming through the U.S. military occupation and their proxy wars, their economic manipulation, but also the domestic issue as a occupier communities. They use very similar tactics. And I'll give you an example, right? Some of the pretext for Afrocom is to bring stability, national security, protect U.S. interest and this idea of violent extremists. First and foremost, United States had a hand and a large in creating a lot of those violent extremists in 2011 and prior with other, you know, engagements within the region. But after 2011, most importantly, the destruction of Libya weapons, you know, flew across

the continent and many groups were vying for power. So why, they create a lot of instability. But then they create that pretext as a justification and a rationale on why they need to be in the region. their partners do this as well and you know in the same way violence in our community because of deprivation a lack of resources a lack of life-affirming policies in black communities black colonies here

then they use the same tactic to say well this is why we utilize policing to bring about public safety to decrease crime but on both fronts terrorism so-called terrorism all of it it never has decreased it has never

decreased in the region since the presence of the United States and their Western allies. But also, when we look at in our communities, a crime doesn't decrease either. So in the same way, they use similar logics, pretext of justifying why they're there, justifying while they must explore this, justifying why they must lead and manage our affairs. So that's one thing I want to link. And finally, right, like, you know, Tudy said, and I'll reiterate, this is a full spectrum, permanent world that the United States has carved up the world in these combatant, you know, And the reality of that is that anybody should be deeply concerned about that is because

United States as an empire is constantly expanding. It does weaken itself at home in many ways. We should be concerned of that. And that should be of interest to us as folks on the left who are organizing to a better and newer society is that, like, this is the opportunity to organize in different ways. When we see what's happening to Sahil, that should give us hope. I think when you see these folks from Guinea, Burkina Faso, Mali, Nizier, having these explicit, anti-imperilist, anti-colonial types of positions, it should inspire us to see that the world is changing in many ways and that the United States and its previous kind of a hegemony is weakening. It's waning. So we should, in a way, respond to that with how we've organized. So Afrikaum is something that is going to become more and more

prevalent as I think more green economies are going to emerge. Africa has the resources to facilitate that. Africa has an endowment of the world's most largest resources, and that is the reason why the U.S. is there. They can say instability. They can say whatever the case, but ultimately it is so they can protect their interests. Google, Microsoft, Tesla, Apple, pharmaceutical companies are dependent on these on these resources that are in the ground in Africa right they're dependent on it and we we shouldn't you know delude ourselves for folks who maybe are convinced sometimes about our arguments that the U.S. is wanting to just curb terrorism you know when they one created but two have political economic interest also against Russia and China you know Afrikaum is going to

become more and more important from the environmental aspect the geopolitical aspect of their you know, Cold War continued with Russia and China. And just from an aspect of like, how do we support, you know, Pan-African, you know, in unity and African and global liberation. So. Yeah, absolutely. And you alluded to this, but I just wanted to like sort of reiterate this point. You know, the continent of Africa is emerging and will continue to emerge throughout this century as an economic powerhouse. One of the reasons it has these emerging economies all throughout the continent. It has in many places on the context, a demographic that skew young, right? Lots of young people, which means lots of labor going

forward, especially in a world context in which many more developed countries are having the exact opposite problem, right? Too many old people not reproducing enough, etc. That's going to add interesting tensions to the global system overall. And of course, as you mentioned as well, these crucial resources for many things, but also, and especially for whatever green transition might occur over the next several decades, right? A lot of these core minerals that are used in the production of, you know, stuff like batteries for electric vehicles, et cetera, are often found in Africa. And so this is another huge reason why there needs to be not only a presence, but an increasing presence by the hegemonic forces of imperialism in the region going forward. And I also just wanted to touch really quickly on the term terrorism.

It's really, it's, you know, losing its steam among people that can think critically. We saw how it was deployed after 9-11. in this absurd way, we have to remember that the term terrorism is a term deployed by hegemony. It is a term that is deployed and can only be deployed by the dominant power towards a less dominant power to sort of dehumanize them, to allow any and all assaults on them, etc. And they're using it full-throatedly right now in the Israel-Palestine conflict in which they are deeming any pro-Palestinian movement, solidarity, expression, protest, as support for terrorism, right? And I think we should just completely reject that term and then

turn it around on them. No, the real terrorists are the Israeli apartheid state. The real terrorists are the American imperialist state and what it does to people around the world, how it destroys democracy, freedom, autonomy, basic human decency and dignity. These are the terrorist states and we're going to refuse to be browbeaten again by the term terrorism into withholding our support for the Palestinian Liberation Movement and the many national liberation movements that are to come in the coming years. But with all that said, let's go ahead and touch on a little bit of history before we get back into the present. Because in their article, Revolution in Sahel, the All-African People's Revolutionary Party stated, quote, of 106 coup d'etaz in Africa

since 1950, 103 have been reactionary coups orchestrated by the Portuguese, French, U.S., and other European powers. One of the first and most brutal coups was the U.S.-backed overthrow of democratically elected Congolese President Patrice Lumumba, who was detained, murdered, and dissolved in a barrel of acid. The CIA overthrew Kwame Nakruma in 1966 while he was in China consulting on a plan to end the American war on Vietnam, end quote. So can both of you kind of talk about, discuss, educate us on who Patrice Lamumba and

Kwame Nakruma were and why they were assassinated and why we should look at them as important inspirational historical figures. Absolutely. These are giants in, you know, African history and the movement for pan-Africanism and African liberation. Oh, and I also want to mention that that article that you mentioned from that All African People's Revolutionary Party is a must-read revolution in this to hell. So I recommend everyone check that out. But yeah, so, you know, start out with Patrice Lamumba, right? He was the first legally elected, right? The DRC, and you spoke to.

And, you know, he really represents the ideals of economic independence, of Pan-African solidarity, of national unity, and really, you know, the hopes of millions of Congolese people for freedom and material prosperity, not just the Congo that, you know, much of, much of Africa, much of the African world. The Congo is such a key, a key country, a key region in terms of, you know, I guess geopolitical location is right in the heart of Africa, right, in the center. And then it also has an abundance of raw materials.

And that's why really for over 100 years, over 125 years, the U.S. and Belgium have played really key roles in shaping the destiny of the Congo. Seven months actually before the Berlin Conference when, you know, Western powers came together to decide which of them would dominate which

parts of the African continent. You know, the U.S. became the first country in the world to recognize the claims of the infamous King Leopold II of the Belgian to the territories of the Congo Basin. And so, you know, obviously,

under King Leopold, there were many atrocities committed related to brutal economic exploitation in the cause of a free state that resulted in, you know, millions of death, right? And, you know, the U.S. kind of joined with other world powers to force Belgium to allow, well, to take over the country as a regular colony. And, you know, Lumuba kind of rose up out of this context, and, you know, you know, the phagos full of uranium that the U.S. is used strategically in their atomic bombs. They dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And so they also have, you know, like you were saying, the minerals that are used in so many of our laptops and bones and tablets. And so, you know, Laluva represented or demonstrated like kind of aspirations to retake control of the resources of the country for the sake or the purposes or the needs of the people. And so, you know, he represents that ideal. I'll just quickly speak on Farmy and Gruma, Dr. Pramai Grimma, who's the president, first president of Ghana, and really one of the most influential organizers

and Pan-African strategies in the 20th century for African liberation, really was under his leadership that, you know, and the cadre, right, within the Convention People's Party that Ghana achieved independence and really played a critical role as like a hub for liberation-oriented forces. They were engaged in its struggles across the continent and beyond, right? A lot of U.S. forces went to Ghana, you know, including, you know, DeVos and Shirley Graham

DeVos and so many others that, you know, I won't go into naming. But, you know, one of his main contributions was really his commitment to the unity of Africa and all African people throughout the world, really. And, you know, he was really committed to the destruction of imperialism. And really, we see it that he would have been completely against, you know, Afrikaum, the U.S. African command. He would make sure that would never existed, right? And the Africa's resources would only be used for African people. You know, no outside force would, you know, would be used to arm dismantle or disrupt Africa's political growth and unity. And so, yeah, he just represented a totally committed force and outspoken activist for the African Revolution

and really advocated for one United Socialist, you know, Africa. But yeah, I'll stop there. Absolutely. Nicholas, anything to add to that? Yeah, you know what? I think too much explained well about why those two figures are so large. in pan-African, you know, history, but general just liberatory and anti-colonial anti-imperialist, you know, history. And one thing I'll add is that the United States, its Western allies, the EU, NATO, a lot of them create this situation.

And it's very similar. And like history doesn't always repeat, but it rhymes. And when we look at what happened in the Congo after the death of Patrice Lumumba was destabilization. It was internal conflict and it led to economic decline that, you know, it still felt today. It culminated in a series of devastating conflicts, right? So, same thing happened in Libya. This sets the continent back so far when they

come in undermining African sovereignty for their own political interests. And it's something that is a constant strategy and consequence of, you know, engagement. And a lot of this was on the pretense of Trith Lama was called a communist. Now, he didn't identify the

communists, but that was utilized, as we know oftentimes throughout history, as a way to justify any actions towards them, because communism synonymous was like evil, essentially the United States, right? You're going to be a communist and you now have created the like that, the red scare error, right? So in the same way, and Krumah, who, you know, was a Marxist, was targeted as well because they were developing ties again with China and Russia. In fact, Krumah was in China when the coup took place, right? So it is really important to know. that a lot of this is always, and it's a lot, and I encourage people to go read the works of in criminal in particular, you know, neo-colonialism, the last stage of imperialism, a class

struggle in Africa, and dark days in Ghana, which, you know, I think dark days in Ghana is what he talks about, what took place, and how the CIA had a hand in is overthrowing. And ultimately, the last thing I'll say is, you know, the, on the back of the Cold War, oftentimes Africans are collateral damage and sometimes it is deliberate but a lot of the times what's happening is the United States and its allies do not want an emerging power in Africa because it against the interests of the West.

It against politically, economically, and you know, hegemonically, geostrategically, militarily for Africa to dictate, determine to decide and produce their all relationships for places like China and Russia who were just better partners in a lot of ways. There's criticism of those places, and I know the left talks about them all the time. The reality is, though,

these countries historically, from the USSR to Russia today, have played a pivotal role in assisting African countries, and that is a lot of times why the United States targets these countries as well, not just for the resources, which is the primary goal, but also the partnerships that develop because that is a threat geostrategically to the United States. They need neo-colonial

puppet leaders who will betray their people in the interest of Western interests. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Absolutely. And I'll link to that article, A Revolution in the Sahel, in the show notes so people can listen to it or go read it because I do think it's really, really well done, really important. And, you know, we've done full episodes on figures like Walter Rodney, on Thomas Sankara. And I've really, for a long time, been meaning to do a full episode, particularly on Kwame Nakrumah, but also, you know, Lumumba as well. So hopefully in the next year. So we can get full episodes on that covering their entire life, their contributions, etc. I think they are crucially important figures for the global, you know, socialist, anti-imperialist, anti-colonial movement. Okay, well, let's go ahead and move on and let's come up to the current situation, the current year, 2023, now that we have context, we understand what Afrikaum is, we understand some of the history on the African continent with regards to European and U.S. imperialism. But there's been several major flashpoints this year, and they've been occurring in the, as we've talked about, the Sahel region of Western Africa, centered around various coups in Mali, Nigeria, Burkina Faso, and Guinea. French neocolonialism and imperialism, back as always, by the United States, also plays a huge role in the region and these current conflicts. So can you discuss the current events occurring in the Western region of the Sahel and in West Africa more broadly, why it's an important region in general, and the role that the French and Afrika

playing all of this. Yeah, so the Sahel is a region in Africa. It's a really a long strip right underneath the Sahara desert. It kind of divides North Africa from the rest of the continent. I think, you know, recently we've kind of been hearing it used to refer to West Africa, but it stretches all the way to East Africa. So, yeah, it's a it's a lot of stretch. Historically, right, there's been a number of, you know, empires in that region, like, you know, the Mali Empire, Songhai, 10 Baku, et cetera. And, you know, also it's largely

Muslim for some of the reasons. But like you mentioned, right, they've been subjected to French colonialism. And, you know, the orientation of France, the U.S. and other NATO countries towards the region, hasn't really changed,

well, towards the whole continent, really. Hasn't really changed since that Burling Conference in the 1880s, on through to, you know, those forces conspiring to thwart the African independence movement to swept the continent in the 50s and 60s up until now. So, you know, we're currently seeing a new scramble for Africa to make control over that region and the continent more broadly.

And France's role in the South in particular, and West Africa and Central Africa has kind of, you know, remain relatively consistent since, you know, in 1960s and, you know, a lot of these countries has got flag independence. But there's really a lot of anti-French sensing. So, you know, two events in the past 10 years are a little more than that, right? That broke the Campbell's back in terms of the people's orientation or perception of France, right?

Their sentiment towards the French presidents, right? The NATO war in Libya led by, you know, NATO and France and the U.S., and, you know, in which Nick kind of referenced earlier. And then also in March 2011, you know, there was a French intervention to remove the elected president of Ivory Coast or Port de Bois in April 2011, right? So really for years, those events have forced the strong anti-French sentiment, especially among the young people, which you spoke to, right? There's a large young population on the continent. And really, it's not just the South that this feeling has developed, but throughout French speech. African Africa. But it's the cell where this feeling has been expressed most openly. And so, you know, there's been mass protests against the French presence, you know, across the former

French colonies. These protests haven't, you know, let's, you know, straightforward civilian transitions of power because of, you know, the strong repression and, you know, how the political apparatus in those countries has really been in a weekend and eroded, right, by longstanding longstanding French neo-colonial governments and skeptocracies, right? So, you know, what we're seeing, right, is a wave of coups, right? And so that, you know, has stretched back a number of years. But really, and I think we'll get into that more details around that in a few questions or later on the interview, but I think, you know, we understand that the U.S. and France, you know, have really been in the region in the Sahel and West Africa to, they say, to secure the region against,

you know, insurgent groups, what they call terrorism, right? But we can understand that these groups are told, you know, NATO, of the U.S., of these European forces, to destabilizing. these countries in the South, right? And so we see it as though, you know, the French, NATO and the U.S. created the crisis by, you know, you know, kind of allowing for, you know, these groups to gain access to weaponry, you know, and basically this, this dis-sabilization has led to African client states, right, to let them inviting foreign militaries into their territories to help fight violence from non-state armed groups. right, like the French. So the U.S. has, really, their basic operations on the continent is mostly Niger, right? And France has had a number of, you know, military bases, a large military presence across the Sahel. And so, you know, that's what I think a lot of, you know, that's part of, that's the big part of why I guess the people in the Sahel are rising up against the, the neo-clonial forces, the Western presidents,

in their, in their countries. So, yeah, I guess I'll stop there and, you know, pass. Sure. Yeah, thanks, Tundee. That was beautifully said. I'm going to add a little context to some of the characteristics of the coups and the movements, really the movements, what I want to see them as. And one thing that has been leveraged against these movements is this idea, one, it's

racist, but two, it's incorrect for many reasons, is that the reason these coups have taken place in Western minds is that Africans are too uncivilized to appreciate democracy. And this has been a line that you'll hear a lot throughout of this. And we want to debunk that for two reasons. One, the United States and the Western allies don't have democracies. They have democracies for the rich and the, you know, the dictatorship of capitalism and capitalists. So they can't give anybody else a democracy, nor should they be the ones that they dictate the definition of that. but two, these, I think the most democratic expression that we can see is a revolution or, you know, these types of coup, that is, these, these are popularly supported. In particular, the one, and Burkina Faso, I think, raises the most, you know, curiosity.

Ibrahim Sorori has made a great deal of decisions that the people are in great support from expelling French media. One of the first things you want to do, Malcolm Max tells us get rid of the media. You don't want your precedent be the one informing you on things, but also appointing, and this is really critical, he appointed Tambela, who was in large support of the Thomas Sankara Revolution, and he pointed him as the pride minister. And this is important because in the 80s, Tambaela was the founder of what it was called the committee for the defense of the revolution, and he supported them financially, and the revolutionary struggle waged by Sankara and the Burkina B. So Terrari knows his history. He had a political analysis. This isn't just a military coup, which they want to frame it as also in the West, that they just don't appreciate, you know, democracy, that there are just internal conflicts,

which are real. There are conflicts for sure produced by the West, I will add. But this was something that I believe is strategic, deliberate, and a growing, not only Western, like, or a French anti-sentiment, but a Western anti-sentiment. again in many of these coupes what has been seen and again this is also racist there have been flags way Russian flags raged and the idea from the west that's put positive is that the Africans are being manipulated and tricked and bamboozled and duped by Russia to to work with them and they don't really have the best interest of Africa as if many of these Western

countries have the interests of Africa first off but the reality is and when we look at Africa there's three things that I'll point out there's domestic issues where government governments are delivering because of neocolonial interest. There are regional issues where there are growing security problems and, you know, those anti-francy Western sentiments, but there's geopolitical issues largely that are, what are our partnerships, what are our alliances, and where do we go? And Burkina Faso has, you know, decided to go lean more towards Russia and the Wagner group in particular to help deal with those, you know, instability and those regional issues as, you know, they have legitimate growing security problems that were brought about

by, I argue the West, right? When you think about, I talked about earlier, when you devastate a country and there's people vying for power, now you have weapons all over the place because now they're just being, you know, shipped on the black market and things of that nature, that creates more instability. And, you know, these, these countries are losing civilians. They are, they're destroying arable land. And that sets them back. So they're intelligent enough to realize France has not been able to resolve the issue. because they don't really want to, and that the United States, through Africa, has not been able to resolve the issue of some of the extremism in the region. So they have chosen new partners, right? And a lot of this brings about that, right? The chickens coming home to roofs. The domestic, you know, you know, in the same way, the domestic violence, we talked about earlier when we talked about, you know, police occupy our communities

and, you know, Africa being occupied. Creating that desamilization leads to groups that the United States at times can't control and other times cannot control, and it leads to larger conflicts that end up in this situation leading to a anti-colonial, anti-imperialist kind of what I would say, characterization of, like, Burkina Faso, Mali, Gini.

I mean, Nijir, right? They signed a charter recently that is essentially looking at partnerships between them, and the military leaders of Mali Burkina Faso in this year have they a mutual defense pact, that anything that would

come against any of the country is going to an attack on all of them. It aims to essentially have a collective defense, mutual assistance, and for the benefits of all their population. So for me, that brings a lot of hope because you have someone in Burkina Faso, who I think is central. Burkina Faso have always been central to the Sahel and Western Africa that is making packs with other West African countries that we know less about the characteristics of the politics and what is to outplay. But if they are in solidarity with Burkina Faso, I don't imagine that Ibrahim Taurari and the prime

minister would have them be co-opted by Western external forces. I think he would stand strong and help them develop as well. So this is, you know, this developing situation should inspire us and ask us how do we organize and what do we do in the Imperial Corps

to support those movements, not criticize them because we don't like China or Russia, but how can we support those movements? Because we have a global capitalist economy. They need alliances. They need partnerships. the West is not the answer. It had never been, nor will it ever be. And China offers, you know, economic development. It offers different types of, you know, sending ammunition and, you know, Russia sending troops. Whereas when, you know, Burkina Faso was in, you know, military conflicts, they've asked for weapons because they wanted that self-determination. They wanted to self-reliance, something preached by, you know, Thomas Sankar as well. They weren't given weapons. The French said, well, we already have troops there. But your troops have been failing. They've directed us to lose civilians. They've directed us at times not to engaged in combat with some of the extremists. And that led to the deaths of our soldiers. So there's a lot to talk about in terms of what has been going on, why the anti-sentiments have

grown. It's historical. It's contemporary. And I think it's a turning point in those relationships. And that's why we see the, I think, the movement of ECOWAS because now they know the Western anti-s sentiments are too strong. The U.S. can't come invade. Even though they have, you know, Afrocom and people's stationed there, it's too, you know, it's too out in the open at this point. It's too overt. So now they have ECOWAS, which is the economic community of West African states, that they're trying to leverage to kind of, you know, curtail some of these tools and bring them in. That's what I'll add to that. Very interesting. Yeah, no, that was a great response. Thanks,

Nick. And I'll also say that, you know, we in the Black Lans of Peace, we say that we stand with the Democratic will of the Matthews, right? The people in the streets, you know, the people in the Sahel and Burkina Faso, Mali and Niger and you know we oppose any force that is

backed by the West to oppose those those will that will those interests right and we think you know anyone should be taking that position and getting involved we have to stand with the people and we see this

you know at the watch threat of intervention the ethelwalk sanctions as, you know, imperialism and blackface, right? We also refer to, you know, Kenya and Caracom, you know, signing on to intervene in Haiti as another example of imperialism in black face, right? Like cop city across the country, right? They are being black, backed rather by, you know, black faces,

black politicians in these cities as another example. But that's beside the point. We'll also say that we don't see military coups as the problem. it, right? As they laid out in that article, Revolution in the Sahel, right? It's what's behind those coups, right? Is it the coups in the interest of the people, or are they not? That's the real question, right? So we assess coups the same way we do forces within an armed struggle situation. There are situations, right, when legitimate forces, legitimate interests have no option for armed struggle. And the same goes for a coup. A coup could be a good thing, right,

depending on the alternative, right? Which could be, like, the alternative could be the continuation of neocolonialism. And so I think we have to, you know, really look at things critically and on the rusted question, right? I think the people of Burkina Faso, Molly, Nizier, they recognize that they're integrated into a global economy, right? And they don't have a choice, really, in that, right? And so for the past 500 years, that global economy has been set up to benefit people in the Western states, right, and not them. And so they want to create geostrategic alliances they can really get them out of their current situation and context, right? And so we're now seeing a world where, you know, there might be another pole emerging, right, with portions like the Briggs and others, right, trying to Russia and the rest to challenge the dominance and power of the West and of those G7 countries, right?

So African people, especially in the Sahel, are seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of moving away from the West and towards you know, more, I guess, BRICs forces, right? And just finally, just finally, I want to also say that, you know, I think this whole question of a coup, right, speaks to the situation that, you know, these people were in, right?

Like, it's like a coup is understandable because they didn't really have a choice. They've experienced decades and decades of neo-colonialism, which really manifests in the control of their economy and resources, right the expenditures of their countries go into militarism right and and so you know all of these things including the violence from the armed the non-state armed groups being caused by imperialism right and so we we see it as you know the Africans in these countries really didn't have a choice other

than a coup right and so you know i'll just finally say again that you know we support the masses and the just aspirations of the people and the streets absolutely and we here at rev left completely 100% share that sentiment. The next question, I'm going to actually kind of combine the two next questions and just give you both just more room to discuss whatever you particularly want to discuss. In particular, you know, Nicholas talked a lot about Burkina Faso and Najir and Mali as well. All three of these in particular are going through really interesting moments politically. And I just kind of wanted to open the floor for either of you to just dig a little deeper in any one of these three.

conflicts in particular and it help us understand a little bit more about the internal dynamics instead of, you know, just telling you to tell me about one, I'm letting you pick out of these three and just give us a little bit more information, dive a little bit deeper just to help us kind of fill out the picture, particularly maybe in a place like Molly, which we haven't fully talked about, help us understand exactly what's going on and maybe some of the differences in these political events between these three countries. It's a very open-ended question just to hear both of you sort of talk about this in any way that you want to. sure i'll add and i'll kind of like address molly but also kind of give kind of the what i think is really important to know and tuni reminded me that's why i love doing work with him a lot of these movements are popularly supported right and in this year in particular there were folks lined up thousands of folks lined up to want to help the the so-called military junta saying we want to help in any way and then what they decided to that you do is that we're not going to have you enlist but you have other you know talents and resources that you can lend to this movement so like first and foremost if we care about democracy which you know and when i say we you know i mean the broader left but then also if the the western powers cared about democracy that is what's taking place it's participatory these people are invigorated by the anti-colonial sentiments right so that is important to know when we think about what's happening throughout all these uh areas what what what i think

scares Western leaders is that Niger has strengthened relationships with Cuba, Venezuela. A lot of still developing there, but they are listening to the willes of people. Very similar to what's happening in Burkina Faso. As I mentioned earlier, the charter that they all signed is, I think,

something that emphasizes the fact that they are going to take shared paths forward in terms of developing. Molly Burkina Faso tried to develop a federation based on the fact that regional purposes, but also economic purposes, They have an abundance of gold, cattle, and, you know, other resources that they share that alone, if they were to just, you know, use those, you know, and export those, it wouldn't be as a large of a benefit.

But together, they can be a powerhouse for those resources, which are very beneficial to the entire globe. So, again, what I really want to, like, contextualize is the importance of how popularly supported these are the growing, general. Western anti-colonial sentiments for any broader left movement, we should be inspired by that, you know. And to say that at times that you have a military coup that is illegitimate based upon that, and, you know, Tundee spoke to this, the African people in the military are of the people too. They aren't separate from that. If they've decided to take forward a path that is, you know, in their minds, more independent, more self-determined. Based off that basis, we should respect and support that, you know, the situation.

heel, you know, at this moment, there's a lot to still unravel, but it should give us, I believe, hope and galvanize other forces who are anti-colonial, anti-imperial, Manchester Caesar says overall a very positive development, right? So, you know, again, I'll reiterate, and then I'll pass it to Tunday with the situation with Molly Burkina Faso and Nijir coming together, bringing about unity, having similar a sense of mention to anti-colonial, anti-imperalist struggle, and finding ways to integrate their economies and finding ways to, you know, support each other and supporting their alliances that they're building to take over and, you know, be able to resolve some of the security concerns,

address the needs of the masses, and also build out geopolitically stronger ties. That's how you develop nations. And from the ground, people are saying, screaming, talking about a possibility of United Africa. So the Pan-African movement has been re-avigorated by these. There are people on the ground that support these. There are folks in our member organizations, the bats that are on the ground working to build political education and support

these movements. And it's important to see this as, again, a positive development overall for anti-colonial, anti-imperial, anti-capital and anti-capitalist development. Global. Amen. Yeah. I 100% agree. And I'll just

speak to the the historical, you know, just the progression of some of these more recent coups. We know that this first coup, I mean, this most recent coup, rather, and Nizier, kind of follows a pattern, right, of takeovers, then Mali Burkina Faso and Guinea, right, of, you know, former French colonies who replaced neo-colonial regimes with military governments, right? And some of these governments have really strong anti-peerless sentiments, right? like Nick was speaking to, right? They have strong nationalist foundations.

And, you know, they're working to build, build unity. And that demand is coming from the masses, coming from the people. And so, you know, we can start out with that 2014 inter-insurrection, right, in Burkina Faso, against Blaise Kambore, who was the one who overthrew and assassinated Sankara. Right? And he was, yeah, and he was empowered for 20. seven years. He was, you know, very repressive, right? But the people in Burkina Faso still protested and resisted, right? The people declared themselves children of Sankara and rose up in massive numbers, forcing Blaiscomparter to resign, right? And so the next person who came to

Burkina Fossa wasn't, wasn't it, wasn't placed on parlor, but things didn't really change fundamentally, right? The people were still under French exploitation. You know, the military was still dominating people, dominating people. And so things there really seem to be changing, right? You know, we're putting this in like a broader context. And so I want to speak a little bit about the 2020 coup in Mali, right, with a

semi-corta who came to came to power, right? And, you know, when he came to power in the coup, he showed signs that he wasn't willing to continue with the same relationship with France. And he seemed to be responding, or it seems to be,

responding to the aspirations of the people of Mali, right? They've changed their official language from French to 13 African languages sharing the status of official language. You know, French troops have been expelled from the country. In a French media like Radio France International and France 24 were also expelled because, you know, those media forces like, like I guess, Nick you were speaking to this, right? But there, they spread misinformation about what's going on to try and confuse the people. But, you know, Mali also expelled, you know, France's ambassador in January 2022, right? And French NGOs were ordered to leave the country in November of 2022. And, you know, we know the NGOs have been used around the world, right, to destabilize countries by, you know, oftentimes leaders in the U.S. We've seen that in places like Cuba. I think that might be the more well-known example. But, you know, these were all demands and moves that came from the people and the grassroots and the leadership took them up in Mali. Even at the level of the United Nations, Molly declared that they have evident different supported arms insurgents in the Sahel.

Y'all should go and listen to that speech that they gave at that recent U.N. General Assembly. And that's really a claim that, you know, the claim that he made at the United Nations is a claim that's been being made, right, at many different levels of the government and amongst the people. Right. So, you know, we know that there's a very serious security crisis, and this is a hell that's displacing and killing people. And they have contributed to the need for these uprising, right, that the people are leading. Right. And so, you know, Burkina Faso had a coup that followed that coup in Molly. I mentioned that, you know, the person who took over in 2020, I mean, in 2014, you know, wasn't making a significant change. And so, you know, their more recent coup, uh, uh, uh, the person who took over in 2020, uh, in 2014, you know, wasn't making a significant change. And so, you know, uh, their more recent coup. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, kind of followed, you know, the Mali coup and had a lot of those, you know, same demands that were made and, you know, moves in terms of removing French forces from the ground and, you know, removing French media. But, you know, we understand this is being led by the people, and these rebel states are working to unite, right, to resist the imperialist occupation and control of the cell, which is also very rich and resources and wealth. And so obviously the imperialists are

have their eyesight on it. They're making moves to see how they can, you know, remain in a position of control and dominance of power. But, you know, we see these states and the people within these states as, you know, working hard to breathe themselves of all, you know, imperialist forces and militaries and intelligence operatives. But I just wanted to speak to that. And then I guess I'll just quickly say that, you know, that there, The coup in these air on July 26, right, occurred, you know, and that was also, you know, kind of tied to the movement of the masses, right? We know Muhammad Barzum, right, was detained. He remains, you know, detained because, you know, I think in these air, they understand, you know, the forces of reaction are active, right? And so they're trying to protect against that. But, you know, Chiani, who became the leader of the country, right? also has a strong anti-infuelist sentiment, you know, strong nationalist foundation and, you know, is on board with this idea of a federation of African states. And I think that broader Pan-African sentiment is very present on the ground. Right. But, you know, we know, New Jersey is incredibly resource rich. I don't know if, you know, you know, we're going to get into this later. But, you know, we know about how France and other European countries rely on Nigeria for so much of their, so much of their, so much of their, you know,

uranium imports that are critical to their electricity and power and nuclear energy needs, right, while the Nigerian population, like only 10%, I think, have access to electricity, right? So that speaks to, you know, the fact that the vast wealth of Niger doesn't benefit the people of Niger, right? Most of it goes to these imperialist, neuflonial, European, Western powers. And so I think the hope and the goal of the people is to reverse this situation and, you know, when I move towards liberation right through these efforts

to unite and and build you know towards self-determination about self-fit absolutely yeah I'll briefly add and I try to always do to this so that it can be understood because there's a lot of moving parts and I never want to reduce

you know these these situations but the reality is we want to also always highlight and bat the role of U.S. and NATO and the EU access domination of power is how we kind of identify it. The same powers that killed Gaddafi, the same powers that as the British were, you know, European powers are weakening. The new colonial hegem was chosen in the United States.

And, you know, Walter Ronnie eloquently puts that out in his work, you know, how Europe underdeveloped Africa. And one thing we're seeing now is, you know, NATO is also in his year. And they are fighting a system that is unified in order to, you know, fighting a way to unified, to defeat that system. So, you know, when we're thinking about our enemy, the U.S., EU, NATO access, domination, these neocolonial powers, we too must be unified, right? And the U.S. and France claim that the Sahil is a region that they wish to secure from its surging groups. But again, we've talked about it. They've created a lot of it. They have not been successful at deterring

it. And, you know, there's no secret that, you know, a lot of times they are utilizing these groups as to a means to be there and destabilize these countries further to maintain their economic control. I think we're seeing a revitalized revolution. When we looked at, when we talked about Encruma earlier, Patrice Lumumba, a lot of folks say that was the era of revolution that took off part of the shackles of colonial rule. We're in the era of neo-colonialism. And now we're seeing that this is also being shaken off. So we had to see this almost in a dialectical way and how this process has been playing out, has been continuing to play out historically. The same forces have been present, you know, and it's changed slightly, but with the same interest at hand, the larger

global capitalist, white supremacist, you know, colonial imperialist, patriarchy, power structure. And that's still present to today, but now we're seeing a reinvigorated, revitalized movement that is recognizing that and, you know, federating. One of the things in Crima says he felt like he failed is that he didn't federate soon enough. He didn't build and solidify those partnerships soon enough because you are weak alone, but together, they are strong. And the point that I'll bring up and end with is that they're looking at ECOWAS, threat needs to do military intervention into the year when they had their initial kind of a rise to power.

Folks were saying, you know, like Burkina Fossomali pledged want to defend this year, but then you had Guinea who were like, look, we're not going to get involved, but we would be against anything. And if you request us to help you, we're not getting involved. Algeria warned against the intentions of foreign military intervention. So the thing I'll say about this is that other countries are seeing this and are, That inspires them. So there are leaders who aren't neo-colonial puppets, but are, in reality, know that there's no way to combat the EU-Natal access domination.

But if you see other countries doing it, that inspires. So for another reason, again, this is bringing about Pan-African unity. And for the time to come at it unfolds, I think more and more leaders will be inspired by what is happening and wanting to rise up and have the courage to do so because they're seeing it being done in real time by a regional part. partners and other countries in the African continent. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the world is changing in big and exciting ways, and these movements need our unapologetic, full-throated support and solidarity. Absolutely.

I really appreciate your dialectical analysis. I appreciate the way that both of you seamlessly weave the history with the present to make sense of it. It's just really, really principled stuff, and I'm honored to have you both on to talk about that. Now, we've sort of gone back and forth, even with the questions, with the history and then to the present and back to history. And I want to hit on one more little piece of history, which has been brought up already in this conversation before we wrap this conversation up. And again, I'm very appreciative of the generosity both of you have with your time here.

So this last question, and then we'll plug Black Alliance for Peace and point listeners into resources to learn more. So the last question is about Libya, which we've touched on briefly throughout this conversation. And I think this is relevant because the incident in Libya illustrates U.S. and European involvement on the continent and gives us a sort of recent case study of what happens when this imperialist intervention occurs, as well as what the strategy of imperialism is in Africa more broadly. So, you know, you don't have to go into all the details of this. I'm sure most of my listeners are somewhat familiar with the basics of what happened. But can you just kind of remind us what happened in Libya and what we as anti-imperialists today can sort of learn from it going to. forward. Yeah, for sure. I think there's a couple lessons. One, something that we've both tuned to and I have been saying throughout the course of the episode is that when you have

leaders in Africa who rise up and are not in alignment that produce, you know, relationships with Western interests, they are our main targets. From Matrice Lumumba and Krumba, folks like Samira, Michelle, Samora Michelle, and the list goes on. But when we look at what happened in Libya, it was a, like a last point, and it was pivotal for the West to further solidify Afrika and their dominance. And the reality was Libya had the highest way, you know, quality of life in Africa, right? By every metric, right? Literacy was high. They benefited from health care, education, high standards of just other basic necessities that we don't and a half here in the United States, right? And, you know, gas was cheap. They controlled their oil.

One of the only countries to do so, you know, there was just guaranteed strong safety nets and, you know, a lot of welfare programs. The United States came in and bombed public infrastructure. The great man made river, right? And one of the biggest things that I think that we want to highlight is more emphasis on Africa because it actually can highlight how dangerous United States is. When Hillary's emails came out, a lot of people saw a lot of conspiracies. and talk about. But one thing that people didn't really highlight was that there was conversations between Hillary and French and other Western allies about the terrifying idea of creating an independent currency for Africa. That was real. And they were terrified that the Libyan Central Bank,

which was 100% state-owned and had reserves of tons of gold that if Gaddafi proposed a pan-Africans essentially like kind of currency exclusively, that would undermine Western interest and that would begin what they would i think is one of their biggest fear of united africa so you know from far from the just a destruction and the chief civilian infrastructure but like there are i think fear of western interests of seeing african countries be prosperous and this is why i'll say this no matter what the united states or their u.n nato access partners do i don't believe that there is a economic or political interest in a prosperous africa for them They need Africa to be under a stragglehold.

They need Africa to be occupied. They need Africa to operate in their interest. Whereas China and Russia also have the interest in Africa, but in a different way. They do benefit from a stronger Africa because they are in ways oftentimes isolated because of the other Western forces. So they see and then thus have better partnerships. That's why they have better deals, better relationships, because they operate in a very similar space, right? So when we're thinking about Africa, I think it's very central to a long. larger anti-imperilist movement if we really put, you know, the time and emphasis and

understanding of its historical or contemporary, you know, position in the history of world development, right? So one thing I'll always tell folks is if you are serious about building social in the United States, unless they're a deeply tied anti-imperilist movement to it, I don't know if it's possible, right? I don't know if we're going to be able to do this unless we also tie in the internationalism, that is oftentimes, in my estimation, for got or at least he's not as emphasized as it needs to be. We need to tie these connections deeply and look at places like the global south as markers of inspiration but also progress, right?

And as folks in the Imperial Corps, we have a responsibility to weaken it, right? We have a responsibility to ensure that the United States can't support Israel, bombing Gaza, right, to death. The United States can't, you know, unilaterally decide to put sanctions on Nigeria, destroying and hurting civilian populations that they say they care so much about and on the pretense of human rights always invading or national security

or their rights to protect. We have to demystify that and when we look at the global south it becomes very evident the United States doesn't care about democracy. They don't support dictators who support them. They don't care about human rights because they support the destruction of civilian infrastructure and the death devastation and, you know,

dismissal of human rights in other places if it's their partners. And when we look at that, it gives us a clear analysis. The United States has no benevolent bone in its body, it can't be because its political project is set of the colonialism, imperialism, and that requires exploitation from someone, from somewhere at some time. And when you look at the global south and the continent of Africa, I think it really highlights that, and it gives us a clear cut analysis that is coherent, and we can move accordingly against U.S. Western NATO-E-Axis domination of power.

Exactly correct. Tunday? Yeah. Yeah, that's very well put. I mean, I think, you know, Nick, uh, explained it very well, right? Like, you know, in 2014, NATO countries came together to overthrow Gaddafi and reverse, rather the government in Libya, which, you know, had dire consequences for millions of people not just within Libya, but outside of that country, right? There was a power vacuum in Libya that really exists, uh, as existed up through the

current day, right? And, uh, you know, people were able to eat. easily access the government's stash of arms or weapons, right? And so that's kind of why those weapons are flooded into the Sahel. Right. And so, you know, a lot of armed groups or insurgents or what I guess some call terrorists, right, are, you know, had benefited greatly from this war in Libya, as folks probably know, right? And so, you know, that has led to a very insecure situation in a lot of the Sahel. And, you know, forces like, you know, obviously the forces in the U.S. EU-Native access of domination, which includes France. You know, France and others have intervened militarily in places like Mali, right, in 2013 to try and control the forces that

they unleashed with that war in Libya two years previously. And those forces had captured half of Mali's territory by then. And in 2015, they went to, you know, assault for Keene Faso, right? And so Brent intervened, but then also sent the soldiers of the armies of these South countries to die against the force of the armed

insurgent groups that had taken over and they had backed, really, in Libya. And this created a lot of animosity among the soldiers, and that's why, you know, a lot of sections of the soldiers rebelled against the governments and overthrew them. Right? And so I think

You know, this Libya example is so key to the developments in the Sahel. And, you know, we understand that, you know, a lot of what I just explained as far as, you know, France's intervention in the Sahel is part of, you know, this operation Barcault, right, which is like basically a French military occupation of Mali up until 2021 or 2022. It was really the headquarters for the French in Africa or in the South. And in the same way, easier has been the headquarters. for the U.S. military in Africa. There are, you know, at least three military bases, U.S. military bases in

these air, and one of those being run by the CIA, right? And there are many other military installations in New Zealand, right? And, you know, one of those bases is, like, the largest U.S. drone base, or maybe the, yeah, a massive drone base, right? And Niami, it's called Air Base 101, right? And it's really been the site of massive demonstrations. And, you know, I think, you know, we could also look to other installations. But we understand that this military occupation by these U.S. EU NATO forces is part of, you know, like Nick was saying, the objective, or working towards the objective, which is neocolonial control over the South region, right?

And these air was really the last state in West Africa where a large number of Western soldiers were stationed under the U.S. for a war on terror regime, right? And so, you know, we have to understand these dynamics and understand why we have to get involved in these fights to free all that people and help all that people free themselves, rather, from these imperial forces. And so I think, you know, for us, right, we have to, you know, understand that, you know, that's why efforts like this month of action against Afghanistan are so important. They're a way to educate ourselves and show solidarity and really join the fight. And this neo-colonial reign that African countries have been experiencing for decades and the colonial situation that's been going on for Central Greece. And so, yeah, I think that that just speaks to why this month of action is so key. Yes, definitely. And hats off, full salute to Black Alliance for Peace for running this project.

It's so crucial. Hats off to both of you for coming on last year and this year, helping my audience understand what's happening on the African continent, understanding what AfriCom is, the role it plays. And these events are going to continue to unfold. It's without a shadow of a doubt that I hope to have both of you back on, hopefully sooner than a year out but definitely the next month of action for sure you'll be invited back on to continue to update us on what's going on but we're going to have to leave it there

for now today thank you again so much for coming on thank you to the black alliance for peace for all the great work that all of you do how can listeners learn more about these events and how can they support or join the black alliance for peace yeah so the black lines of peace has a lot of resources on it on our website right uh blacklatchapiece.com we actually just released an africom watch bulletin uh which you know was just was about this situation and shared a number of key resources uh that you know can help uh share share about you know what what's happening on the ground what what uh you know some of the key analysis that we should be tuning into uh uh is uh reads and and and really uh keeping us updated and

So that that bulletin comes out periodically folks to tune into that. We also have a page, blackslash of peace.com slash Africa or U.S. out of Africa. I'm sorry, blackslash of peace.com slash U.S. out of Africa, all lowercase that it has a number of resources as well to help educate us on this. Oh, yeah, Nicholas, you want to take us out? I think he dropped out. Yes.

So, yeah, I'll also add to what Tunney said that, you know, know, we have regional structures. So when you get tapped into BAP, they'll connect you to the region you're in. I'm in the Midwest, and I also organize with our Chicago chapter. So, you know, I'll send you that so you can, you know, tag that in the notes where folks are interested. And, you know, we are a radical network of black organization, but we also have a solidarity network, which are our partners that support our work, doing work everywhere from Cuba, Venezuela, Afghanistan, and, you know, keeping us, you know, unified in these anti-colonial anti-imprilish struggles all over the world. So, yeah, tap in with us.

Definitely. And I'll link to all of that in the show notes, make it as easy as possible for people to join, either the Solidarity Network or Black Alliance for Peace Proper. I'm also going to try to link the Thomas Sankara episode we did a couple years back because we mentioned Sankara many times in this episode. So if anybody wants to learn more of the details of Thomas Sankara and his struggle in Burkina Faso and that history, definitely go check that out. We lost Tune Day, but thank you so much to him for coming on and educating my audience and giving this information. And thank you again, Nick, for everything you do as well. And hopefully we can have you back on very soon. Thank you, Comrade. And we appreciate you giving us a space to discuss our work. And all the work you do outside of that, we really appreciate

what you do off in a moment. So thank you. Thank you. So we must ask ourselves, what is the dictionary definition of terrorism. The systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. But what is terror? According to the dictionary I hold in my hand, terror is violent or destructive acts,

such as bombing, committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands So what's a terrorist They calling me a terrorist Like they don't know who the terrorist When they put it on me I tell them this

I'm all about peace and love They're calling me a terrorist Like they don't know who the terrorist Insulting my intelligence Oh how these people judge It seems like the rackheads and packies are worrying your dad But your dad's favorite food It's curry and cabap

It's funny but it's sad How they make your mummy hurry with her bags Rather read the sun and study all the facts Tell me what's the bigger threat to human society VAE systems are homemade IEDs remote control drones Killing off human lives Or man with homemade bomb

Committing suicide I know you were terrified When you saw the tower's full It's all terror but some forms A more powerful it seems nuts How could there be such agony when more Israelis died from peanut allergies? It's like the definition didn't ever exist. I guess it's all just a venom for your nemesis is.

Inrelevant, how well are good the rhetoric pedlar is. They're telling fibs now tell us who the terrorists is. They're calling me a terrorist, like they don't know who the terrorist. When they put it on me, I tell them this. I'm all about peace and love. They're calling me a terrorist, like they don't know who the terrorist. Insulting my intelligence Oh how these people judge

Lumumba was democracy Mossadegh was democracy Alende was democracy hypocrisy It bothers me Call you terrorists if you don't want to be a colony Refused to bow down to a policy of robbery It's terrorism my lyrics When more Vietnam vets kill themselves after the war And dying in it this is very basic

One nation in the world has over a thousand military bases They say it's religion, when clearly it isn't. It's not just Muslims that oppose your imperialism. It's Hugo Chavez a Muslim. Nah, I didn't think so. It's Castro a Muslim. Nah, I didn't think so. It's like the definition didn't ever exist.

I guess it's all just dependent who your nemesis is. Irrelevant, how relevant the rhetoric peddler is. They're telling fibs, now tell us who the terrorists. They're calling me a terrorist, like they don't know who the terror is. When they put it on me, I tell them this. them this. I'm all about peace and love. They're calling me a terrorist. Like they don't know who the terrorist.

Insulting my intelligence. Oh, how these people judge. You think that I don't know, but I know, I know, I know. You think that we don't know, but we know. We're screwed in seven terrorism. It was nothing that I might terrorism. Diego Garcia was terrorism. was terrorism

I am conscious the crunches were terrorism phosphorus the burns that is terrorism Erdanistan gang that was terrorism what they did in Hiroshima was terrorism what they did in for lucia was terrorism Mangadela A&C that was terrorism Jerry Adams I or Ray that was terrorism

Eric Prince, black and her or was terrorism Oklahoma McVay that was terrorism Every day USA that is terrorism Every day UK That is terrorism Everyday Everyday, every day

Every day, every day, every day, every day, every day, every day. Every day Oh Yeah