Revisionist History - A Dollop Crossover | Ben Naddaff-Hafrey on Staten Island and the Revolutionary War

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

After Ben's Staten Island summer, he sat down with The Dollop hosts, comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds, to examine Staten Island during the Revolutionary War. Ben, Dave, and Gareth dive into an extremely niche topic in history.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Pre-order the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm.fm. or wherever audiobooks are sold. Pushkin.

Hey, hey, it's Malcolm Gladwell. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let you know about my new book, The American Way of Killing. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to hear a preview and get the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm. slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hey, revisionist history listeners. This is Ben Natt of Haffrey.

A little while ago, as part of my Staten Island summer, I went on a history show called The Dullop. It's hosted by the comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds, who, it turns out, have both done sets on Staten Island that turned out poorly. This episode was a comeback special, about an extremely niche topic. When I was reporting the Staten Island problem, I spent a day on the island with the Revolutionary War,

historian named Phil Pappas, learning about how Staten Islanders really did not want the American Revolution to happen. Sadly, that got cut from the show. But the guys of the dollop did a deep, deep dive on the topic and came up with an even crazier story. And that's the episode you're about to hear today. You can listen to more from the dollop over on their show page. And here's our episode.

My father's dead. You killed him. They think that I'm shiny. I am a pie man. I'm Pete Rose, and I only go to Gold's Gym, this one specifically. Rumor is that his penis is broke. And show up where the Taco Bar was. His brain just fucking exploded.

River of cheese. You've been drinking any gnome juice? No, officer. My dad had a fart chair. Hey, cover me. You're listening to the dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. This is an American History podcast where each week I, Dave Anthony, read a story from American history to a guy who grabbed a drink at the wrong time. spilling.

Gerith Reynolds do is no idea what the topic is going to be about. Good Lord. But before we jump into the dollop, which we're also calling the revisionist history dollop, because we have a guest. We're doing a crossover, like when Batman and Robin used to do a Scooby-Doo. Everyone remembers that?

Who's Scooby-Doo? We're definitely Scooby-Doo. 100%. 100%. Without questions. We have Ben Nadafafi joining us. And thank you. Thank you for joining us, Ben.

This has been like in the works for a minute. I'm honestly surprised this happened. I'm shocked. I'm shocked that. I'm not only shocked that this happened, but I was shocked in the first place that you guys immediately gravitated towards this story because it is a deep cut.

Well, it is a deep, but I like deep cut. And it's also our buddy did it. And then Dave was like, this is crazy. So Dave's been working on it. in some capacity as well. But this is because you did a series on Staten Island. Yes. And then this was kind of one that there was just kind of the leftover stuff.

And we were like, well, let's do it together. So what is the, what is the Staten Island series called and where can people listen to it? So it's called the Staten Island problem. And you can listen to it on the revisionist history podcast. That's what Colin Jost and Pete Davidson suffered from. Yeah, when their, when their ferry boat is, you know, they bought that. Staten Island ferry and they've for like a decade tried to figure out what to do with it. Just like a month ago, a state official was like, I've got a great idea. You should sink it.

And we can make an artificial coral leaf. I know. I think there's that it's obviously been a terrible investment, but there's got to be something about being like officially sinking. It must be a tough one. But anyway, so the Staten Island problem and it's it's about Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City for those who who don't know, Staten Island is one of the five boroughs in New York. And the reason you may not know that, you know, it's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, Manhattan, Staten Island is Staten Island calls itself the forgotten borough as in like the unloved, unloved borough, the one that like no one ever pays attention to.

It's true. It's totally true. That's like why I did this story. I was like, they're kind of right to want to leave. They're being pouty though, right? Oh, it's the chip on the show. is like core to the identity. That's just like you got to...

Should they secede? When I... Yes. Yes, absolutely. When I lived in New York, I went there to do stand-up once. And it was like going to another country. And they hated you. I would arguably say the craziest, like, when I was first starting,

the craziest set I'd ever gone through was in Staten Island, where everyone just yelled at you during your... set and every comedian went through it. So you were kind of like, it's not me, but you would just be up there just fighting. I was like, what is this? Was it a grandpa? I don't remember if it was a grandpas. Yeah, there's a comedy club called Grandpa's. It was like,

you're like, notionally, I'm in New York, but this is not playing to New York audience. But that's, it's different. It didn't work. Like, the train got me half the way. You can't, yeah, you got to take a ship the rest of the way, like a half hour out to sea. But yeah, which is just never good. No, but I think that's where the reason the story that you guys have actually done,

and I know very little about ultimately, but it's about how, what I, why I gravitate towards the story is because it shows that Staten Island is like eternally not part of New York City. They're just, they are always on the other side. Oh, yeah. So I'm happy that you guys are doing this. When I was going through this, I was like, oh, it's exactly the same. It's 200 years later and it's exactly the same. 20 years later.

I don't understand what it. 200. I will not allow that last celebration for the 250 to be real. I want to redo. I want to do a 255 once we maybe get through some of this, which we want. Anyway, well, welcome to the listeners from yours, and we encourage our listeners to go check out the Staten Island problem and weigh in. And now let's do whatever the hell this is.

Mm. Mm-hmm. 1738. Dave yells the date on their show. Yeah, I've heard enough that I know that. Okay. I don't like the way you put that to be on. I've heard enough.

That's how a lot of people describe our show. I've heard enough. Yeah, I've heard enough. I saw one comment on the one I listened to that was like when they get, it's like usually in a dollop episode, when they're 25 minutes in and like you have the main characters like four years old and he's lived in three brothels. Like that's far for the course. But when you're like 25 minutes in and he's,

He's like middle-aged. You know some crazy stuff. That's right. Yeah, that is very true. Yes. Yeah, the quicker they age, the more you know it's a crazy story. Yeah, yeah. Like, not a lot known about his boyhood.

You're like, there's going to be bad. Oh, boy. Christopher Billup. He has two peas on the end of his name, which really throws me off. I want to go Billop. It's like Verrazano with the ends. That's right. Was born on Staten Island, New York.

He would be the oldest of eight alive kids born to Thomas and Sarah Farmer Billup. Now we always say alive kids because they had a lot more. Like if you had, if you had eight alives, there were some that didn't make it. We don't count the dead ones here. I don't know about you, Ben, on yours,

but we don't know what the, yeah, the formal, the first world. There's so many that passed, you know what I mean? They were eight living descendants in this family? Eight living. Yeah, he had eight. That's remarkable. He had seven brothers and sisters.

That's what's more affordable on Staten Island. Eight, that is numbers, too. That really has to be. You're banning above average. You've got to be putting out 20 to get eight. There's also a robust mosquito population on Staten Island in that era. You know, a lot of disease from mosquitoes. So they're really crushing it.

Mosquitoes have really hung in there with their disease. They really don't like them. I was driving here. There's one of my car. I'm like, what's happening right now? I'm leaving down. Keep going. Keep going.

That's going to see a lot. me out of here. Get me to Staten Island. You live for half a day. Okay, so Christopher's dad, Major Thomas Billip, was the son of Anne Billop who married a colonel, and Anne was the daughter of a Royal Navy officer,

another Christopher Billop, who was awarded 932 acres of land on the southern tip of Staten Island. And he builds a big stone manor house. The land is named a Bentley Manor. So they got there They're loving it It's pretty sweet

Yeah It's a lot of land Yeah 930 acres on Staten Island is two Uh on regular One two bedroom apartment Yeah It's a studio with a stove

So So young Chris is destined to be in the military He's just He's from a military family And eventually he does And he becomes a colonel Which is what everyone on Staten Island eventually starts to call him.

So by the 1770s, he's known as colonel. By the powers of a deduction, you would say there were not a lot of colonels from Staten Island. Otherwise, remember, we're the Scooby-Doo part. So I just want to be very clear, we're the Scooby half. Does that mean I have to like growl Batman voice this?

No, you could be what Dave's kid called the Wacky Batman. Yeah, right? Yeah, I'll be a wacky Batman. I'll be 1960. he's like Capao, bazinga, Batman. Yeah, yeah. So Bentley Manor have been built up over the years,

and now this Christopher Billup owns it. So there's the stone house on the water. There's Grandfrew built. There's four more houses that he would rent out. And a neighbor remembers him. He's a very tall, slim man. Sure. Staten Island at this point, mostly farms.

Okay. If you can believe that. I can't. Everything else is agriculture. So there's wheat and orchards. What is a statin? Oh, well. It's a Dutch term.

Is it? For what? I think so. I don't know. Wow, look at you asking questions. It can't be answered. What is the statin? There's a place called the Staten on Staten Island that's very famous.

Staten. Oh, interesting. It was probably at the time called, like, it's Richmond for a while, too. Oh. There's Richmond town in this. A weird change. Okay. Staten Island by Dutch Explorers.

Staten. Name honored the Staten General, which was the Parliament of the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. I thought it had something to do with the Seven United States. You should have known that, yeah. Yeah. That's his special. Brank you, Brick out of Ben.

Okay, so there's wheat orchards, cattle, salt hay off the marshes, oysters and clams. Big player back then. Out of the shallows. They sell those and sell everything in the New York City mostly, but they also would sell it to the British. Have you ever read about the oysters in New York, Ben? The whole oyster situation?

I knew about the oysters on Staten Island, but I didn't know about the rest of New York. There is an amazing book, which I wish I knew the title of right now, about oysters in New York. It's incredible. Oh, you also wanted to mention the book that you based a lot of your stuff on quickly.

Yeah. Who is that? Well, so yeah, this, all of everything we know about Staten Island in the American Revolution comes from this historian named Phil Pappas, who is himself a Staten Islander, born and and bred, and wrote this amazing book called That Ever Loyal Island. Wow. And he's condescending. Well, you'll see why when you get further into the story.

But it's like, it's a fantastic book. The oysters in the Hudson were insane, right? Yeah, I mean, we Americans just lived on oysters for a long time and ended up just decimating that oyster population. It's like everything else that we get where you're like, if you just did it a little slower, it could be forever. We're like, no, we will eat it all and then no one will have anything. But I'm hungry now. I'm hungry to eat all the oysters now and make money. Yeah, it was really.

My only complaint, no indigenous people have died on this venture. We did two episodes on it. It's really crazy. Okay, so they're selling in New York City. And then in the years leading up to the revolution, a lot of what they're producing is sold to the Royal Navy. A warship anchoring there. That means hundreds of men who need bread and beef and fresh water.

And the Navy pays in silver. So it's a good deal. Okay. And when the king's ship needs water, it fills its casks at a spring on the island's northeast shore, a spot that is called the watering place. Very good title. You know what you're getting into.

Yes. I thought this was a brothel. It's very much like a surfer. Any surf spot is named after what the restaurants. Big Rock. Like it's all what you see from the surfboard. Colonel Billup, he's been in charge of,

of the Islands Militia now for about three years, which is called Billups Corps of Staten Island Militia. Okay. Once again, we're just naming things extremely aptly. Exactly. Well, it's also how book titles were, you know, what it would just be like. He actually wrote a book about it called The Endless Forests

in the area where I lived for five years and eventually left because my wife had tuberculosis. I don't need to read the book now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's a peacetime appointment. Obviously there's no war when he gets appointed. Now on the island, there's five churches. The biggest is St. Andrews, which is the Angelican church at Richmond Town.

Nice. Yeah, that's what we're just talking about. Yeah, you don't need to yell about it. I'm going to. Out of the, out a new Dorp. Oh, come on. Yeah, there's a place called New Dorp. Stop.

I don't want to even know where Dorp came from. Dorp? Could not sound more of like The Carlos Mencia sound he made When he was calling Dorp You stub your toe Dorp It was the alt to Homer's dough

It's either Dough or Dorp That's with you What's that there's like What is the alternate universe Simpsons thing This just like triggered some deep Simpsons knowledge It's like the Shelbyville Simpsons or something Right?

Oh no no When he's like replaced by like Russians there's like a film version of the Simpsons that they're trying to pass off as the real Simpsons family. Oh, I kind of remember that. That just takes me to when the Flanders have a family reunion. Sure, yeah. But yeah, I can't remember.

There's like the fake Homer goes, duh, oh, or something like that. I know the English Flanders goes, oh, great googly. Mugly. Moogli. move. So I had a new Dorp, there is a

Moravian church and the minister lives beside it with his family. His name is Hector Gambold. And Gamboldt writes a lot of letters. And so that's a lot of those survived and that's a lot of what we know. Okay. That's helpful.

Yeah, so write letters, people. Yeah. Didn't help Comey, but... No. Comey was like, but my journal. They were like, Yeah, get out of here. My diary.

Definitely diary. Unless you name's Fauci, then don't doubt. Don't keep. I met Barbara Streisand. On the island, there's five. Oh, I already did that. So the trouble starts, right, over taxes, the colonies are paying to the crown. Sure.

Right. This is a big shopping boycott, as we'll call it. The British Parliament closed the port of Boston because of the Boston Tea Party. Continental Congress answers by agreeing that no colony will buy British. goods until parliament backs down. And so, of course, Richmond County on Staten Island wants nothing to do with this. They're not going to change anything. They're like, but can't we still buy just maybe just a little?

Like, we're so nice to sell to the British. That's what happens. That's the problem. It's a big market guys. And Colin Jost are like, now's our time. Anyone want to buy this? So Staten Island refuses to join this. and the colonel does that personally.

He sits in the New York Assembly and votes down every measure that favors the Congress. And when the Assembly refuses to see... You gotta love it. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. No. That one...

No. No. Oh, that's it. No. When the Assembly refuses to send delegates to Philadelphia, somebody proposes going around it and putting the question straight to the people of Richmond County. But the colonel goes to that meeting

and beats it there too by a large majority. So it's clear Staten Island wants nothing to do with any of this business. They just want to be able to sell their stuff. Yep, they're happy. And they're happy with the British. They're like, this is not so bad. Yeah, it's pretty good.

I'm making money over there. You guys keep doing that. That's helping. then in April of 1775 the shooting starts outside Boston at Lexington and the first thing the colonel does after Lexington is to write to the British Army and ask them not to come. Okay. And he signs a letter to General Gage, who is the British Army's commander,

requesting that no troops be sent into New York. And his explanation given nine years later said he was, quote, hoping the flame would blow over. Let's just ride this one out. Look, there's some guys got shot, some other guys got shot. I don't see this lasting very long. It's going to blow over.

I don't think this is going to go on for too much longer. If you could give us a week, that would be really helpful. So he spent a year, in his words, quote, keeping the inhabitants of the island quiet until the arrival of British troops. Meanwhile, Staten Island will not stop selling to the British Navy.

Oh, God. They're the king's ships, right? And as far as Staten Island is concerned, this is the King's Island. The king would request more oysters. It's called Peckish again. We just leave all these oysters in the water? Yeah. Come on.

Secret oyster handoffs. There's also like, don't they, somewhere in here, they're also like, they propose like a truce. They're like, can't we just like make friends with the British again? It might be just a way to work this out. We made a side truce.

We are an island. I want to remind everyone to that. So, of course, the colonies are now pissed that Staten Island won't join the boycott. So they start another boycott. New Jersey stops buying Staten Island's produce until the island appoints an enforcement committee. So the island appoints an enforcement committee. committee, but then just ignores it. This committee, when I went around the island with Phil, the guy who wrote the book that

with all this, he took me on like a tour of all these sites. It was amazing. Like every single one of them is like next to like a no fault divorce like lawsuit clinic. But there's, we went to the place for this. It's final form. We went to the place where this committee met, which is still preserved. And I was like, what did they do here? And he's like, you know, just kind of.

He just kind of like threw a ball against the wall. Sort of like just like just like, it was just kind of like met to meet. They were just sort of like, yeah, we're not going to look into that report of disloyalty. That's awesome. So just pure, yeah, just purely just like, yeah, we're working on it. That's like most of our LA government committees. I was going to say, it reminds you very much of like the parliamentarian role or something like that where you're like, here's what I think. And I was like, cool, go fuck yourself.

Here's the point. It's just like letting it die in committee. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Is this the first let it dying committee? Oh, man. Oh.

I love that this just all under the framework of let it blow over. Let it just let this cool down. Two, three weeks. Two, two, two, probably two, maybe three. It's called an excursion. Right. So they're ignoring it. They're just trading with the crown still.

and in February 1776, the Continental Congress writes the county into its minutes for, quote, enmity and opposition to the system and measures adopted for preserving the liberties of America. That's not good. You don't want to be written in for that. No, it's pretty targeted, obviously.

Hey, traitors. So they put us in the minutes. Boys, bad news. Never great. We are officially in the minutes. All right. I can still sell oysters, though, right? I mean, yeah, but we're on notice.

I mean, we're in the minutes, and that's never good. So we've got to get these oysters going quick. It's not, I think you're taking away different. Get them out the door. It's not, again, I'm sort of saying we're in a dark spot. But yeah, let's sell them. Yeah, get the oysters out there. At this point, the rebels, as we'll call the us, the Americans.

Sure. The mainlanders. The rebels hold near. city. So that April, continental soldiers take up posts at the watering place, standing with rifles between the Royal Navy and the island's drinking water. That's got to, I mean, you don't want to parched, you know, the Royal Navy, you don't want them parched. You don't have the King Thursday. You can't even get to the no-fault-divorce place anymore. No. Well, we're going to have to be heather. But what the islanders do is just row out to the war.

to do business with them anyway. When you watch that, you're like, what are they, what the hell are they doing? It's just like a tiny sailboat inching on the horizon. Load it up with a cartoon level of oysters. You're going to go bad.

They're fucking eating the oysters. Are they shucking? By June, Washington, that's George. Washington is demanding an investigation into reports that his own riflemen are taking bribes to row the islanders out. I just... This is actually the first fairy. I can't.

Yeah, it's not a bad idea. I'm often, I would say, Ben, the thing I've learned on this show more than anything, which is why we say that history repeats itself or at least rhymes. I can never get over that it always has existed. that it's just like, it's just always been thus. Bribes find a way, you know, no matter what. Yeah. It's just so funny.

You're going to give me 10 bucks? Okay, I'll row you out there. Yeah, I have no principles. Let me take up a new country. Sounds nice, but I mean, really. But also, my country sounds really good too. That'd be great. So Washington is pissed.

He's just across the water in New York, and he writes that the people of Staten Island, quote, after the fairest professions have shown themselves our inveterate enemies. Wow. Now this is, yeah.

That's bad. It's in the minutes again. Yeah, is that bad what George Washington calls your island enemy? Rowing out oysters. Man, we've really put our chips down now, now, guys. Look, are we in or are we out, guys?

I don't know. How far do we want to take this shit? I am amazed that Satin Island ever became part of New York City It is crazy It is geologically a part of New Jersey It's like spiritually and geologically It is New Jersey

It's much closer It's way closer to New Jersey I understand fighting that though I understand fighting that Yeah There's an annexation movement Oh to join New Jersey In 2025 I think it's still a foot

Maybe the Republicans in New Jersey Are like it would be helpful To have that island Oh yeah I bet it would At some point they'll blow up the Verasano Bridge. That was floated during the secession movement. They were like, when this happens, we'll blow up the Verasano.

It's kind of awesome. In 2025, to be like, we would like it. Let's blow it up. Is that crazy? On July 3rd, 9,000 British soldiers begin landing on Staten Island. Unbelievable. Led by General William Howe, commander of the British Army in America. On July 4th, 1776, now that's a big day.

Is it? You know what happened then? Oh, that was when the, who wrote the song that I got to stand for. That's right. In Philadelphia, the continental Congress declared the colonies independent. And on July 6, 1776, in Richmond Town, Staten Island, 500 men gather in the road. Richmond Town is right in the middle of the island. there's a courthouse, two churches, a tavern,

a few dozen houses, so not a big place. A divorce. Dwarce. Divorce. That was at fault divorce. At fault divorce. Governor William, Tryan watches them. Trian is the royal governor in New York,

and he has been running the king's government off the deck of a ship in the harbor for a better part of a year because the rebels hold the city. He's trying his best. Yeah, he is. Yeah. And next to him there is General Howe. in front of them, the 500 Staten Island farmers

are sworn into the service of the king. They are from Billups Island militia. This feels traitorous. It does very much so. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say, but there are still a lot of loyalists around. So, but this is just a giant group of them in one place. But there's a ton of loyalists hoping to bring up.

In New York at large, but like Staten Island is. is like remarkably so. Yeah. Remarkably. Honey, I think we're Britain again. I'm not sure. They're taking some kind of oath out there. My favorite thing that Phil told me is that the islanders burn the Patriot leaders in effigy

after word of the Declaration of Independence comes out. And also that there's like all of these letters from the British soldiers when they arrived there where they're writing home and they're like, this island is amazing. and they're greeting us as like saviors from the rebel mom. And it's like they can't get over how happy they are that we're here. They're like, this is awesome. They got effigies of their government. This is a real vibe.

This is awesome. They really like us. This is really going good. Babe, I'm famous here. So out of the 500 men are out of a total population of 2,840. And that includes children and slaves. Well, who... If memory serves, are not considered people.

Yeah, correct. So that's a pretty big chunk of the population. It's a good hunk. For the colonel and his men, a job very easy at first. They watch 15 miles of shoreline facing New Jersey. Okay. You're going to keep an eye on New Jersey. Sure.

It's still the same. It's a... Yeah. Still the same. They arm and assemble every time an alarm goes up with the colonel at the front. They dig dirt walls into the hills for the British to put cannons behind. Really? They got the, yeah, then I got the good job.

They are like, is it, is it an island or a pirate ship now? It's taking out that vibe. Column A, column B. Yeah. Like, if you're watching that, be like, says, Christ, they're putting cannons in the dirt. There's the skull and crossbones flag. Oh, my God.

Look at that. They got parents. They got parents. They round up several hundred of their neighbors to drive wagons and haul artillery. The island's moving with this. There's a sail move in the goddamn island. It's getting farther from New Jersey. I think they're going to Britain.

The haul artillery for the British Army and the horses and wagons go with them. They find the army. It's forage and it's firewood. So they're doing everything. They're the suppliers of the British Army. Okay. So the Colonel's Mansion sits at the southern tip of the, the island right on the water facing that says a lot facing perth amboy the the the colonel's mansion really just

sort of justify a lot of this if you think about it back then all colonels had mansions yeah that's cool so they're right across this narrow channel from new jersey you can row across in a few minutes okay and new jersey is rebel ground so the colonel's house is visible from new jersey as is the colonel when he just stands outside like you can see him It's like how Sarah Palin describes Russia. I can see Russia from my house. I can see New Jersey from my house. Like, but do you able to see him like, what is he doing?

He's in a robe. He's having some hot beverage. He's really stretching. Oh, he's waving. He's enjoying himself. Years from now, we'll call it yoga. He's counting gold again. Across the water in New Jersey is a rebel named Nathaniel

Fitz Randolph. Everyone calls him Captain. I'm going to call him Fitz. Okay. He's about 30 years old. He spends the war rowing over to Staten Island in the dark. And he does it often enough that papers on both sides are writing about how

he's famous to the rebels and infamous to the loyalists. So we really, everyone knows who this guy. We have like a rowing Batman. Yes. It was a slow news period. Nothing big was happening in world historic events. Who is Roman?

But even the people who hated him conceded that he was decent to the many captured and did not let his people rob houses. Sorry, who is he capturing? Yeah, I missed that. So he is rebel American going over and grabbing

whatever a soldier or whatever or an important person from Staten Island. Okay, so he's anti-Staten Island, obviously. So he's... He's anti-British and therefore anti-Staten Island. because Staten Island's part of Britain. He rose over and he does a comedy set. Yeah.

He comes back. They boo them. That did not go well. So he's rowing over there and he's grabbing like someone of note and then he's bringing them back to the mainland and people are like, yeah, it's good. That's right. And they're like, what the hell are you doing? He's like, it's a vibe. Staten Island is cap hoppin.

This is how bad comedy is in Staten Island. David Tell went before me and he got off stage. was like, oh, God, get me out of here. It is bad. I do. I got honestly, I want to hear more about these Staten Island since you guys did. I didn't even realize it was a comedy circuit that went through there. I one time did, I think I did stand up on the ferry to Staten Island.

And it was a death sentence. They're just slamming on the accelerator. It was the first trip that took 10 minutes. Yeah, it was like, just a lot of smoke. You're really cooking. That was, oh, God, I know who books that gig. Or did. The guy who booked it for me was a guy named Pudge, I believe.

Oh, okay, that's different. Yeah, and it was horrible. I bombed and then could hear people talking about how I bombed. I literally at one point said to someone, I go, I can hear you. She was like, oh, sorry. I was like, yeah, it's okay, but keep your voice down. Yeah, so grandpa's, was in New Dorp,

Grandpa's Comedy Club. And Grandpa was Al Lewis from the Munsters. That's who owned it. That's why it was called Grandpa's. Dave's 80. Dave, Dave fought for the British. I did.

A little bit. I still am. This is going to happen. Dave took an oath after his set. Should we reconsider? They pay him an oyster. You know, 250 years, it's been long enough. It's not a bad idea.

The rogue guy grabs him. Oh, come on. You're going back to the mainland. So the colonel puts a hundred pound bounty on Fitz's head. Okay. So then Fitz, in response, put a hundred pound bounty on the colonel's head. He's not allowed to do that. And he won up sit and said he was going to have to go get the colonel himself.

Wow. So I guess he gets his own bounty. Yeah. Do you pay yourself for taxes? Self-dealing. That doesn't happen until 250 years later in America history. You got to be president to do that kind of thing. Insider rowing.

he then gets a tip that the colonel will be attending a ball on Staten Island. Who's the tip from? This guy keeps looking over there and he can see everything. With bald eyes, he can just... How do I know? Because there's actually a ball going on right now and the colonel's at it. So it's several miles inland from his estate. So Fitz heads to Staten Island.

And he goes to the house where the ball is happening. This guy's wife, by the way, definitely was like, he's cheating. He's 100%. Oh, you're going to Staten Island again? You can just tell me if you're... Okay. What's her name? I'm going to Staten Island again and try to get the key.

Uh-huh. And he, so he goes to the ball, he peeks inside so he can get a look at the colonel and see what he's wearing, worried that he might grab the wrong guy in the dark. So he wants to see... Poorly wet ball. What a setup. I'm going to have to go by feels. Did we immediately option this to be a movie?

A major motion picture? This is like a Marvel plot, Roman. So, so Fitz, Fitz, Fitz Rant, Fitz Rant up. He's a wanted rebel. He has a price on his head, 100, 100 bucks or pounds. And he goes into a ball of a room full of loyalists

on an island held by the British Army. Did he dress up? I don't know how he pulled it off, but some people did recognize him, acquaintances, but they didn't say anything. He just, but he must have been playing the part a little bit. I don't, I don't you imagine he's just winking in a lot of people? How good are the British, huh?

Look at all these oysters. This is awesome. This is living. This is great, huh? I hope the mainland rower never comes this way. Colonel, nice outfit. How do we know that some people recognize him? It's like after the fact to feel like,

Oh yeah, I saw that guy. I knew who that was. You don't get invited back. It's got in the letters. Yeah, I don't know how else you know. That's all we got. That is a weird thing to put in your letter, though. Some people knew him.

Others didn't. Definitely people wrote about it years later, so maybe that's why. Okay. The next morning, the colonel is riding home from the ball. He's tired. He's half of sleep. He's probably hungover. He didn't all nighter at the ball.

Yeah. Yeah. And when Fitz steps into the road, right in front of him and seizes him. And the details have been lost to history. But for some reason, by July 27th, he's back on Staten Island. The colonel? Yeah. They caught him.

He caught him, which is to be trying to do for a while. And then all of a sudden, he's free. And we don't know why. What is the time difference between when he caught him to when he was back on the island on the 27th? Wait, the colonel never. wrote like a extremely self-aggrandizing book about all this? He tweeted a bit. He assumed history would.

No, he didn't. He assumed the history books would be like. And he never, he never anticipated this. No, he never was like, this won't work? He was probably exchanged because he was kidnapped for the sole purpose of trading in a prisoner exchange. Okay. So he's probably traded.

Okay. But this is not close to. I would hold on to that one. Yeah. Yeah. This is not close to over. In February of 1779, a raiding party from Staten Island

comes for Fitz in Jersey. Okay. At 3 o'clock in the morning, a party of loyalist troops crossed from the island. They land, they walk into town. Nobody sees them, because it's 3 a.m.

Nobody's up. And they go straight to the house where Fitz lives. This is going to be very validating for the cheating thing, though, for him. He'll be like, see? I've been wrong. I'm telling you.

They're coming to get me. unbeknownst to the rating party, a rebel scout from a nearby post has stopped to spend the night at the house. Okay. So there are 12 rebel soldiers inside with fits. Tough. That is brutal.

It's not what it looks like. No, no. Yeah, he's like Jason boarding the room. He's like, there's only candles. So the century does not see the loyalists until they have nearly surrounded the building. Okay. And then he fires a musket once and runs away.

Wait, who does fits? No, the sentry. Oh, that guy. I love that guy. That's me. That's what I'm done. I'm shooting once and I'm taking off. Well, to be fair, I mean, he's like, it's going to take 20 to reload.

Yeah, absolutely. Words out. I'm going to get a coffee. So when the gun goes off, the Loyalists storm the house and they just take fits and the other 12 guys easily with that incident. They're just like, ah. They're probably all laying on the floor. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. On the way out, they steal the buckles of the shoes of the women in the house. Smart. You got to get your stuff. That's just economics, obviously. I'm like, kind of, like, how is everyone arranged? There's, like, one room with, like, 12 guys on the floor,

and then there's, like, bedrooms with the women of the house. When I picture these times, I always just imagine the three stooges. Sleeping caps, one of them's like, whoopo, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo. There's definitely a couple. If there's a bed, there's definitely three or four soldiers. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They had to tell, yeah, they do the 69 sleep.

When up until, I don't know when, the fire department's in the late 1800s, it was just always two dudes in a bed. That's just the way it was. Which is what I say we should do. Moving in fast motion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah. So, he's put in a provost prison in New York, and then the British put him in irons. Oh, dear. Now, the rebels keep coming for the colonel. And in March, the New York Gazette reports that two or three different parties have lately been at his house, quote, in order to captivate him once more with a view to get him for an exchange. So they're trying to get him to swap for fits. They just think he's valuable. They're not like this guy is quarterbacking the whole thing.

They don't think he's like the lynchpin of the British effort. They just think they'll do anything to get him back. Yeah. Why don't they take him? Why don't they? The colonel? Yeah. They can't.

They just can't have been able to steal on it. It seems like it couldn't be that. It's hard to grab a guy. What is? Especially if you got to grab him from New Jersey. Yeah. I mean, I was hard to grab him. He's right there in front of his house.

I could go get him. How can we not this get this guy? He's doing yoga every morning at 9 a.m. We can see him. So they do, they do a couple of raids. They both fail, but then a third on June 23rd, 1779, does not. As previously mentioned, the colonel's house can be seen across the water. So the rebels stationed men in the steeple of the town church and give them orders to watch for the colonel to come home.

This is a Trojan church? They literally like, you guys, I got a great plan. Hear me out. How did this take years? We watch his house. All right. So someone on the mainland invented hiding. and this is going to be this is a huge technology a huge breakthrough what this is is

not revealing where you are right away it works better in summer when there are leaves you guys remember surprise parties it's that but for kidnapping okay this is going to change all war this is big Peter Thiel has the copyright so he comes home the rebels head across so they wait for him it's not like they're waiting in Staten Island hiding. They're still across in Jersey just watching the house. The rebels. How did nobody, how was nobody like,

we could do this over there? Also, like, to be visible from New Jersey, you have to be at, like, the most extreme, like outer edge of Staten Island.

Like, he must have been the farthest south point of New York. He is at this point. He is at this point. He is taunting at this point. Yeah. You really, I mean,

Obviously, if there's only like a little bit you can see. And you're like, I choose to live there. You would think he would just be going out, dropping his pants and slapping his buttches. He's spreading. He's doing the spread thing again. He's spreading. So they head across in a boat in silence, muffling the sound of the oars, as you do. Sure.

They land? I don't think you'd, it's probably quite ineffective, but you maybe just have to lay it flat. Yeah. It's really, it's really taking a long time to get there. They land, they walk up to the house. We let him. We're back on the mainland. In a single file, they walk up to the house.

They give the counter sign and go inside without anybody raising the alarm and the colonel's in bed. Yeah. He's sleeping. Sure. So they just grab him. And when they're taking him out of the home, he asked for time to grab his hat. Well, I mean, look. It was really different back then.

There are rules of engagement. and there are war crimes and obviously you've got to let the guy get his hat. We do, there's a lot of hat stuff on. Yeah, well, we've got through a lot of the hat respect. There's all, like if someone is in disarray, the papers are always like, he was without a hat.

Like that's to describe how messed up things were. No, if you think taking your hat off for the National Anthem is a pain in the ass, you have no idea how lucky you are. They don't allow him to grab his hat. What the actual fuck? Oh man, things have changed. Well, that's not good.

Well, that is just, I mean, that is not gentlemanly. Death. His own guard is posted a short distance away but never noticed a thing. They got comfy. One rebel goes into the stable and takes the colonel's horse, a beautiful animal, takes it down on the water. But the horse, because he's a jerk, will not get in the boat. So the man shoots the horse.

Jesus. I don't know why. I don't think we need that detail. What else are you going to do with the horse? I mean, look. If it's not going to get in the boat, you got, what other options are there? So I just killed it. What?

Yeah, yeah. Just let the thing go. It's a beautiful. Nice horse. Yeah. I should have. I should have. What are you doing?

It's all happening so fast. Yeah, but there's so many moving pieces. It's not happening, fat. This is the slowest thing ever. I know. Hiding. I'd kind of turned my mind around. And I did, I did stomach.

So it's a slow one. Yeah. Why would you shoot him in this? I just completely, no, we walked through a lot of versions of this. We never talked about that horse. Well, you're not supposed to take a horse. What is with a horse not getting on a boat? Doesn't it understand?

Who takes some horse will get on a rowboat? I completely agree. Completely agree. Can you do stealth mode rowing when you have a horse passenger? Trying to get a horse. The doors are quiet, but the naying is very loud. Trying to get a horse on a rowboat. It's making it harder to row.

Horse was definitely behaving rationally. It's like, A, you don't need me. B, absolutely not. I'm not going to go. Yeah. No. No. So the gunshot alerts the British that something's going on.

But by the time... The idea that you could have just left the horse, not only for ethical reasons, but to sneak off better. Yeah. Well, I shot the horse. The British, no. I buckled. He looked mean. He looked mean.

He was not going to be weird. What do I'm going to do? I bow. Like a lady's shoe out there. I shot the horse twice. But it's too late because Jersey's so close that by the time the British organizing Get down there. We're ready.

They're back on the mainline. Yeah, they're in Jersey already. So Colonel's now a prisoner. But it's not so bad. Basically, he promises the continental army. He will not escape and will not take up arms. In exchange, they let him do his thing in New Jersey. So he's basically just cruising around in New Jersey now.

and he promises not to do anything bad. That's the prisoner situation. I don't understand. That's how it works with officers. It's the gentlemanly agreement. But then why not let him take his hat? Exactly where I was going. Well, here we go.

Exactly. He's going to hold a grudge, isn't he? As you should. Just walking around all that time. I mean, he can see it from where he's being. You can see it for he's right there on the hat rack. It's right there. I can grab it.

Right next to the yoga mat. Yeah. So as long as he keeps his word, he stays out of a cell, right? So for four months, that is Colonel Christopher Billups' sentence. Exile in New Jersey. Yeah. May I go into jail now? But then in October, New York State blows that agreement up.

The legislature convicts him of loyalty to the king. Yeah. We knew this. Yeah. We all knew this. Yeah. We knew. What are we doing?

We knew that. The four months is the issue. He's in the legislature being like, we should all. Yeah. And you are sentenced to no hat. Well, guys. Guys. So the colonel is banished, and everything he owns is taken by the state.

You're going to Staten Island. So they take his 1,078 acres. The Stone House, his grandfather built. the dead horse they take, they take everything. The hat. Jesus. In New York, the British are holding... Put it on in front of him.

No! In New York, the British are holding two American prisoners and irons. One is Nathaniel Fitz Randolph. So New Jersey decides to answer that by doing the same thing to a loyalist. And that's Colonel Billup. Okay. So the governor in New Jersey wrote a letter.

letter saying the state had no personal resentment against the colonel, quote, it is his particular misfortune to be in our position at this melancholy juncture. Hate to do it. We got to put this guy in prison. The amount of things that were emotionally written back then and the amount of things that weren't, and this is one where he's like, it's melancholy. We're down. I'm really sad I got to put this guy in a prison.

It's tough. And he was just like bopping around New Jersey and then they were like, things have changed. events are such that now you must be in manacles That was tough But it is where he wrote bored and to run So on November 6th the colonel is actually sent to prison There are two letters that are sent with him The first is for the jailer quote

You are hereby commanded to receive an ear custody The body of Colonel Christopher Billip Prisoner of War Herewith delivered to you and having put irons on his hands and feet, you are to chain him down to the floor in a close room in the said jail and there so detain him, giving him bread and water only for food.

Comma with melancholy. That feels very standard as far as... Doesn't it? Yeah. It's like, they're like, okay, yeah, so he's a prisoner, got it. It's like the hiding thing. They're like, we got to really spell this one out. Don't get him wet.

Don't feed him after midnight. Comma, New Jersey, comma, earth. Yeah. The second letter is for the colonel. By the way, bread and water, you give me that for three days. I'm not upset. Really?

That sounds pretty good. I think it was longer than three days. Yeah. No, eventually I'd be like, can I get some butter? But for the first few days, I'm carving and loving it. So the other letters to the colonel,

the official who signed the first one, says he is sorry. He writes, quote, to be under the disagreeable necessity of treating him this way, but retaliation is directed, and the colonel can end it any time he likes by writing to New York and arranging better treatment for the two American prisoners.

So they're saying, they just want him, they just want fits in the other guy, out of irons. Right, and he can do that. Yeah, he's like, you, yeah, how about you get involved? Wow, what a... We can unmanical the right hand or the left if you're a lefty. That is right.

such a strange situation to be in. So he is chained to a jail floor eating bread and water in order to improve the living conditions of the guy who kidnapped him in the first place. So weeks go by

and a message comes to the colonel from George Washington. George tells him to resign his command of the militia and he can go home. Nobody will touch you of your property during the war or after it. So that's a pretty good deal. That is the perfect deal. take it. Yeah, he says no.

He likes being in charge of the militia. Men have never been sane. He's like the king. Rather than go to therapy. Yes, exactly. This is just like, dude, look, just say you miss your dad. No! No! Chain me tighter!

He says no. It's psychotic. But regardless in December, the two sides workout out of trade and the colonel gets to go home on the 26th. 19 days later, the water freezes. Now, the winter of 1779 into 1780 was the hardest of the century. Water rays around New York froze solid enough to carry infantry, artillery, and Calvary across. Calvary across the... Roman was like, this is tough. Just on foot. I've been made redundant.

Yeah. So, on the night of January 14th, 1780, Washington... They thought everyone was Jesus. And now they're Jesus. So on the night of January 14th, 1780, Washington sent 2,500 men across the ice into Staten Island on 300 sleds borrowed from New Jersey farmers. Wee. Wee. This is fun. Yay.

The whole British force on the island was 1,800 men, so not enough to. Yeah. So Washington's done fucking around. Yeah. So the British Army asked. the colonel to call out his militia. In town, the militia is mostly, up until now, they've been mostly just doing the grunt work, right?

Right. Building stuff and bringing the supplies. We're digging. So, yeah, digging. Mainly digging. A lot of holes. What are we digging for? Not sure.

Keep going. So combat like this is something new. So the colonel goes to his militia, and he asked them to come into the fort at Richmond, and then he begs them. He tells them that what the American Americans will do to this island if they take it, which is hang some of them, right? And ruin the rest.

Sure. Hang some. And then do a set. Burn some. Yeah. Another set. May I be hanged? And then he walks into the garrison, like, let's go.

And then nobody follows. Not one man would join the garrison. They then go to the public houses and say, instead. to drink and hear the news or they just went home to see about their cattle or their land and these are not secret rebels. They were

men the American government had marked many of them refugees out of New Jersey. Some read every reason. That is just remarkable. Some New Jersey refugees. That's what they call them in New York City. We've been through so much. Aren't you just doing this to make money on oysters?

Yeah. Our home is gone. It's there. So some of them have every reason to expect to be hanged if the Americans win and lose everything they had, right? But they're still not going to step up and fight. Wow. The truth is, the British had overstayed their welcome and it abused the island and its people badly. Yeah.

So a man named Blake interviewed years later said, quote, The soldiers in general behaved at first very well, paying for everything. everything that they took. But when they came back from Jersey, they stole everything they could lay their hands on. They started with fences. They started with stealing fences. That's right.

What are you going to take? They fenced fences? Wow. You guys are being too literal. All right. Now this is how you fence, right? No. If we put this up on the battlefield, they'll never get us.

Look at all these posts. You idiot. Fences are very important for a farm community like Staten Island They keep the livestock from eating the crops But the British soldiers needed firewood So we just used the fences So wait My cows over there

It's chaos Oh my God So yeah we got all this wood for our fences And we're quite cold Is that possible local Isaac Simonson quote the fences were all destroyed not a rail being left in three months

at that time things were very cheap after the British came prices more than doubled can I say like in the in the eternal Staten Island this of this story this is like 18th century Nimbusom literally not in my back you're like you took away what demarcated my backyard that was the taxes

also it's You think NIMBY's bad now. Yeah. I mean, the British were, so the thing my mind always goes back to is when they took Philadelphia, you know, they just took over houses. And instead of using an outhouse, they would just, they just cut holes in the floor. Oh, my God. And we'd just use that as their toilets.

Oh, my God. So they're not great. Like, not good guess. That's tough. There's an outhouse. There's also an in-house. Christ. And that's how bathrooms are invented. We call it the Lou.

Yeah. By the way, the pitch was good. The pitch eventually. Directionally, yes. Yeah, eventually we got there. There's nothing worse than the long hike. Dad's pooping. He's taking that long walk of shame. The first time the Army went to New Jersey, a proclamation went out.

Or if there was no toilet paper in the outhouse, weird walk back to the main house? That is a rough one. Dad, are you, were you shot? No, we're out of TP. They just used their jacket and throw it away behind. It's tough. It's a good conversation, though.

The first time the Army went to New Jersey, a proclamation went out telling everyone to put their fences back up. What? We found the issue that really gets them going. It's just like how we get an amber alert. I've got it to fence alert. Then the army came home and destroyed the fences again. Damn it.

What did the British use for firewood once they used up all the fences, you ask? Well, the churches, of course. Oh, my God. They're, like, literally the stuff that's most important. Like, let's do that first. What about the trees? Is there a church here? There was a...

There was a reformed Dutch church at Richmond Town. A frame building finished right about when the war started. A minister named Van Pell. quote, the British used it gradually up for firewoods. They just used up the whole church. Wow. Well, now take the priest. A Presbyterian meeting house became a hospital and was then destroyed.

This might be how they started burning people at the stake. Seriously. We need more firewood. What about that lady? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't use a good steak for that. Yeah, all right, not the steak. We'll burn them on her.

The two women, tape them together. Delores. Stand as long as you can. Do you understand? You've had tape this whole time? Yeah. You guys don't have tape? And yoga?

Yeah, you guys don't do it. You don't have tape in yoga? The Dutch church at Port Richmond had a balcony, a steeple with a bell on it, and shingles from the ground up. Those are gone. Soldiers lived in it, lived in it until eventually it blew over in a storm. No one is inside, but it blew over at New Dorp, which is, a name I'll never get over and no one should. And when it blew over, they all said,

Dorp! A chorus of voices rose up. Oh, Dorp! Soldiers set fire to Gambold's Moravian Church, then came into the parsonage one evening, frightening his family, destroying their furniture, and carried off the congregation's records,

probably to burn. Gamble wrote that a complaint by civilians to British officers commonly makes bad worse. One islander said he obeyed the two officers quartered in his house without ever objecting because there was no use in it. Quote, if I'd done so, we should have been requited with a curse and a blow of their swords. It's just amazing that they're treating the people that they're helping them like this.

Yeah, right, and that the people are taking it like, well, okay. So civil government is... There's an outhouse, guys. No. No. the civil government has stopped existing at this point. The courts were closed. The courthouse was burned. Jesus.

Can we get that gavel? And yeah, these are their allies. So by this point, the militia members aren't really feeling particularly inclined to lay down their lives for the crown. You guys don't seem to have that. You're not excited anymore. Am I crazy? What's going on? So when the American rebels arrive, nobody is there to stop them.

Uh-huh. But the garrison held. The British spies had warned the Americans were coming and they were ready. And the soldiers stood on a frozen island in a blizzard for a day and a half and went home without incident. But after the army came hundreds of American civilians with sleds. They were dead set on looting the hell out of Staten Island. This is how it happens. Stop saying we.

Not an invading army. No. Way better. Getting stuff. They emptied a man's store while he stood in it And burned another man's two sloops His two sloops? Sloops ships

Ships, some kind of ship Small ships They took cattle, horses, carriages, bedding, and furniture They took people Long after the war, a man named Pompei Prawl Remembered that night He said ice was so strong that, quote, The Americans come over and steal colored people

And sell them for slaves Oh, sweet. God, never, never good. Gotta make a buck, right? Never good. At all costs. Wait, the first part of that is ice was so strong. Yeah, so they could just run across.

Their funding was in the Homeland Security Bill. You're thinking, yeah, I get the, today's environment. I was not what I was just trying to parse what was being claimed about the climate. This is, imagine a time when Tom Homan had teeth. That's what was happening in this area. No such time. The Colonel's house. was looted to, of course.

Quote, the severe frost at last gave the rebels an easy access to his farm on the ice when they carried off a black man, his cattle, horses, carriages, bedding, and other furniture to a large amount.

Not the betting. No! Magistrates valued the lot at 944 pounds. It also, he said, compelled them to move his family out of so exposed a situation. He's like, well, I got to go.

He's lost it all. I think it's the full repossession. I also. Yeah. Go ahead. This house, I believe, in, I think it is Billups house where the attempt at a truce conference in the beginning of the revolution is held. Like after the British launch, the big battle in New York City from Staten Island, on September 11th, I think 1776, there, like, all right, now you've seen what we can do. Do you want to make nice? And they invite,

I think it's Ben Franklin and maybe Adams over to Billups House on Staten Island. And they're like, we can make this all disappear. You just like agree that nothing happened and you love the king and it can all go back to as it was. And that's like, that's the moment when we all, we could have just remained part of Great Britain and we chose not to. Oh my God. That's so great. They were probably like, this is the most important thing that'll ever happen on 9-11.

Exactly. This is huge. History will remember this. They will never forget what happened in here and day. Phil Pappas remembers this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah.

So the colonel moves. After he comes back from prison, he stopped sleeping in his house. Every night he walked up from Bentley to his father-in-laws to sleep. And every night, somebody sat up to watch over him while he slept because the colonel was a very hard snorer and he was worried he would sleep through another kidnapping attempt.

Oh my God. Come on. That's R.E.M. I've never experienced. That's amazing. You're stressed enough that you're worried that you're going to be kidnapped at any point, but you're still sleeping deeply enough that you need someone to watch you. It's like, I would be up all night. I get 12 hours.

Yeah, all night. I mean, once I'm out, I'm out. Yeah. God. Snoring. Also, the logic of that makes no sense. It's like he's snoring deep loudly enough that he can't hear the. That's probably what he thinks, yeah.

This is a different time. They didn't know a lot of sleep apnea back then. He still got a Casper mattress. Actually, it's where Helix is actually the mattress he probably had. Not to jump on your sponsors then, but even back then, if you want a mattress. you could be kidnapped off. You know what? If he's sleeping that deeply,

it's probably a helix. I was like in the California Duxlux, which is quite up in. The Staten Island Duxux use promo code Staten Island or promo code Billups. It's filled with wooden fences. Yes, nice and comfy. The new Helix horse meat mattress.

Filled with a whole horse. It's one of a kind. Listen, why did we shoot it? We don't know, but we stuffed it in some felt. Now you're going to, felt a good night's leave. So Staten Islanders are now

refusing to serve in the loyalist militia and they go further. What's their problem? Some are passing the Americans' information about the strength and condition of British troops. A private complained that the residents were spying for the enemy, ambushing patrols, and taking

every opportunity to shoot at the soldiers of the garrison. You're not on the same side anymore. It's pretty clear. It feels like it's turned. It feels like when they're actually shooting at you. I'm starting to understand how Staten Island became a part of New York. The British had had enough,

and they evacuated Staten Island on December 3rd, 1783. We've all done it. Residents came down to the shore to watch the fleet go. One wrote, quote, We are very boisterous in our demonstrations of joy. We clapped our hands. We waved our. our hats, we sprang into the air, and some few

who had brought muskets with them fired a foetijoi, fidgoy, fidgoy, a few others in the exuberance of their gladness indulged in gestures which, though very expressive, were neither polite nor judicious. Wow.

The old finger. One guy from Philly ate horse poop to celebrate, and everyone felt pretty weird about it. That is so funny to listen to how they wrote about euphoria. Boisterous demonstrations of boisterous joy.

There were demonstrations of boisterous joy. We were waving our hats. A few gentlemen shot muskets. Hey, hey! Remember, we have nothing. Some people left some sleds on the island, but other than that. Some people didn't realize

it was the spring and tried to sled to the island. This was great. I shot a horse. Why? What do we have? Woo! Nobody knows. how many loyalists left with the fleet, but the island came out of the war

with more people than when it started. 2008-847, and it was now 3,835. So they gained 1,000 people. And Colonel Christopher Billup left, and in September

1783, he filed his claim in London. His claim? For losses from incursions of war. One hat. Three good night sleeps. My mommy gave me that hat. One yoga mat and block. Wow.

Horse, obviously. That was a tough one. That hurt. Okay, so losses from the incursions of the enemy, 1,500 pounds, losses. Wait, I thought they would say it was valued at 944 pounds. Did you say? Where is that inflation?

losses of the ice of losses of the ice in one night 944 pounds so that's when all the people came after when all the people just ran over and stole everything losses to the British yeah loss to the British military 1,441 pounds

for living away from his family for seven years 1500 pounds that was very tough you could have just stopped Yeah, that was a tough time. For the forced sale of his land, 4,752 pounds, to prove it all, he brings deeds going all the way back to 1687. He's got orders from three generals about him having to stay there, and an American newspaper reporting on his spirited conduct in the only battle he was in.

So he brings, that's his records. Sure. Two generals swear for him, his claim for loss of property entered in the commissioner's ledger is 5,171 pounds and 10 shillings. That's like the rest of your life, right? Yeah. You're set. That's a nice chunk. Well, then they just give him 400 pounds.

Huh? What? And they offer him 80 pounds a year, I guess, in a pension or whatever. The British are not looking good in this. No, they're not. Maybe the revolution was a good idea. For the first time ever, the British are coming out a little scape. That is crazy.

All that, they're like, we'll give you $490 a year. As that's terrible. It's a bad deal. It's a bad deal. I gave my life up for what you were doing. Yeah, anyway, get out. One sentence was added to the decision, quote, at the time we think it is necessary to say that on his going to Nova Scotia,

we mean the said allowance shall cease. So he goes to Nova Scotia, the 80 pounds is over because they know his plan is to move to Nova Scotia. And when he does, he gets no more money. He does move? Yeah. It's a lot of crisscrossing.

It's like, why go to London from Staten Island just to ping pong right back again? Right? Yeah. That's how you don't make small talk with the decision makers. I think of Nova Scotia's pretty nice. They're like, got it.

New Tim. I mean, I hate flying to the East Coast, I can't imagine. Oh, it's your life. My life's been pretty much three boat rides. It's been pretty much it. And a couple months in New Jersey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Billup does very well in Nova Scotia.

He sat in the first New Brunswick Assembly and then on the province's council by appointee to the king. And he died at St. John in 1827. age 90 worth at least $75,000. That's a lot of money. That's a real. 92. Are those Canadian dollars? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. There's a difference. Yeah, never mind. So it's $7. He was a bumper. Living to 90 with all that. That's really impressive. 90 and those, that's like, that's crazy.

Those are solid stats. His headstone says that his uncompromising loyalty. His headstone at the end says turnover for more. Second episode. to follow. His headstone says that his uncompromising loyalty during the American rebellion obliged him at the termination of that contest

to abandon without compensation his hereditary property on Staten Island. So what you're saying about book titles? The headstone is still just like bitter. It's a bitter headstone. Also just like you're like, wait, what? He was as a traitor. Staten Island was under occupation

for seven years and five months longer than any community in America during the revolution. Wow, that is crazy. Yeah, but at what point did I start calling it an occupation? I know, right? Yeah, like three years in.

All right, wait, fuck this. No, no, no, no. You know what, this is bad for me. All right, wait a minute. Wow, that is so... You know, that's what's so funny about this sort of stuff, at least for me, is I never think about these little wrinkles

of how difficult this was to actually get done. Like, I feel like it's just like, yeah, one day it was done. And then instead you're like, no, no, no, no. Staten Island was a traitorous island. Well, and they had like, obviously it was the right position. They were just like, we have access to the British Empire. Totally. The rocking the boat is going to mean there's going to be guys on sleds coming over and kidnapping.

Like, let's just. I mean, it's like a mini-hormoos. Exactly. Well, it's almost like, like, almost. It was like medieval or before. Like you just think of all of a sudden the river's frozen and then all these people are just running across the grab. Sledding.

It was actually the invention of the ice luge. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was the Bob Slutters. Sources, Philip Poppuss, that ever loyal island, Staten Island in the American Revolution. Charles Anthon, who dropped, pull the Y off there. Dave Anthony, so he's obviously taking issue with that. It's personal.

It's personal now. Completely personal. The why is the whole thing. Interview notebook, Staten Island, history of Richmond County. Richard Bales, history of Richmond County, J.J. Clute, Annals of Staten Island, and William Davis, the conference or Billup House, Staten Island, New York. Yeah.

Wow. That was great. That's wild. Amazing. Now, you didn't really know anything. of that, which also surprises me. I didn't know anything about the Billup story. I knew about

Staten Island's preferences during the American Revolution, but Billop is really an amazing. He's a, as they say in story terms, he's a great donkey. Yeah, he really is. He really is. Well, Ben, thank you

so much for joining us. I mean, this was great. Yeah, this was a blast. Thank you, guys. So just remind everyone again where they can go if we've wet the palate of Staten Island. What I need is more Staten Island stories. If you want to hear this happen in 1989 to 1993 and think about it as a parable for what's going on in the country now,

then you should come listen to the Staten Island problem on revisionist history. I mean, all I was thinking reading this is like, oh, so you supported a king-like sort of thing, and then you cut shit all over. And now you're mad? And how does it? Interesting. How did that go over time?

Interesting. How did that go in the log run? Layers. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ben. And yeah, enjoy what Ben does. And your Ben listeners, enjoy what we do. Yeah, this was great.

Thank you, guys. This was really, really fun. Thank you. Part one. Dishonest Conversations. I want the wheels of time to jump the track. I won't leave all my troubles and I look bad. Chapter 1. A Shooting Lesson

40 minutes outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, deep in the piney woods, there is an outdoor shooting range. Nothing fancy. A winding gravel driveway. A little shed where you sign in. A series of long shooting alleys hollowed out of the side of a hill. A man named Greg Wallace. drove me there one day in his SUV. A big bag of guns and equipment in the back.

Wallace is a law professor and a competitive shooter, gray hair, thoughtful, friendly. We set up cardboard targets in the shape of a man's head and torso and put on ear protection. All right, we're going to start off with this one right here. This is a custom-built AR-15. It has the adjustable stock. It has a 14.5 inch barrel.

He handed me the gun. It was much smaller than I thought it would be and much heavier, a solid block of metal. All right. You want to shoot it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's get you comfortable on this here. So see if that works.

Now what you need to do is to hold it up here. He adjusted the rifle so it fit snugly against my shoulder. All right. And then you need to lean your head over a little bit where you can see with your, you keep looking with your right eye. You want to see that you want to find the red dot in there. Oh, I see the red dot. You see it? Yep. Yep. I want you to bring your left foot forward, get in that kind of boxing stance. There you go. There you go. All right. Bend forward just a little bit. All right. Now, I'm going to take it off of safety. Now once you touch that trigger, once the safety goes off, it will fire. Okay. I fired once and then twice. I missed the target badly. Wallace stepped in and made some adjustments. My feet were in the wrong place. I had taken my eye off the target. I hadn't been prepared for the way the rifle moved after I pulled the trigger. Then I fired again, much better. Wallace gestured towards the cardboard cutout of a human torso at the end of the range, now with a neat bullet hole to the chest. He seemed pleased with my progress. He told me,

would have put him down. Guns are the great distinctive feature of American life. No other country has such a wide variety of firearms owned by such an enormous share of its population. For generations, Americans have struggled to make sense of this fact. If you've ever seen a bumper sticker on a gun enthusiast car saying something like, guns don't kill people, people do, you'll have a sense of what the argument is about. Are guns the cause of America's ills or the symptom? In this book, we will come to a consideration of those questions in due course.

But in this, the first section of the American Way of Killing, I want to focus on how dishonest this argument has become. By dishonest, I don't mean that one or both sides in the fight over guns are deliberately lying. Dishonesty comes in many more subtle flavors, Annette. A conversation that starts with the best of intentions can become dishonest for any number of reasons. When either side pretends that something is consequential, when it is not. When either side avoids the right conclusion because it is too difficult. Or when either side blinds itself to the truth through laziness or indifference.

The American conversation about guns is rife with these kinds of dishonesties. Malcolm Gladwell here. my new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly.

Pre-order the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm. or wherever audiobooks are sold.