REWILD + FREE - 44. SELF EXPRESSION, CANCEL CULTURE AND THE TROUBLE WITH THE LACK OF NUANCE IN THE ONLINE SPACE WITH LAUREN FORTUNA-FLOCH

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Have you ever stayed silent on a topic out of fear that you don't know enough? That you'll say the wrong thing? Or that you'll be cancelled from a group of people? Me too! In this episode, I'm graciously held by my friend Lauren while I share an experience that unfolded earlier this year. This conversation is important to have and also hard to navigate. During the process of creating this episode, I battled a lot of mind chatter questioning if this story is even worthy of being made public. I felt like I needed to be very careful with my words and am still holding a lot of fear around how this could be misunderstood. The good girl conditioning and people pleasing tendencies that I've been working hard to unlearn and heal from have been creeping in, and I've also been practicing deep self compassion and space holding for myself. I invite you to be open and curious as you're listening and please reach out and share any reflections or musings that come alive for you. Connect with me on IG (@nicolepasveer) Resources mentioned in this episode:My IG post Nichole Joy Podcast: Strategies For Breaking Cancel Culture Cycle with Bianca Sprague Womb Room Podcast: Nuance In Times of WarReparative Birthwork (FREE Community Calls)Starting March 7th, we will meet on the 1st + 3rd Thursday of every month at 8pm EST. The intention of this free community is to be IN circle together, co-creating a space for collective liberation, healing, justice, and repair. ALL BIRTH NERDS WILLING TO HAVE HARD CONVERSATIONS ARE WELCOME Click here for more info and link to subscribe to the calendar

It's all about replacing or with and. It's speaking my truth and having self-responsibility. It's speaking my truth and knowing that the impact might not match my intention. It's free Palestine and the innocent Israelis. The words of free Palestine on their own take away any space holding and compassion for the other side, even though that was never my intention. You're listening to Rewild and Free. This is the go-to podcast for conscious and holistic mother entrepreneurs who are ditching society's to-do list for intentional living, freedom, and abundance while creating impact and legacy in their home and business. If we haven't

met yet, I'm Nicole Pasvir, your like-hearted mom friend and biz in their home and business. If we haven't met yet, I'm Nicole Pasvir, your like-hearted mom friend and biz bestie wrapped in one. I'm an ex-nurse turned matrescence guide and business coach leading women just like you into the new paradigm where thriving in motherhood is your birthright and so is a successful and sustainable online business. Keep listening if you're ready to unsubscribe from patriarchal motherhood, bro marketing, and boss babe culture because in space, we use nature as our framework as we move towards feminine embodied business development, cyclical orientation, and slow living. Together, let's rewild and remember as we break free from survival and reconnect to

what truly matters. Okay, friend, steep your tea and take the most loving breath you've given to yourself today and let's go. Oh boy. I am sitting here with one of my best friends, Lauren. And it's weird because Lauren and I have literally never met in person. Lauren and I met through a doula training program almost two years ago now. And I was actually, I was on the toilet this morning thinking, I wonder how many times Lauren and I have like hopped on Zoom together. I wonder how many times Lauren and I have had calls. Like it's not quite weekly, but it's definitely been more than twice a month so if you count like okay twice a month

for almost the last two years that's like 48 times I don't know does that sound right to you like do you think I mean I don't know that's wild yeah it's crazy to think about I think I talk to you more than some of my like in-person friends at this point. So yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I'm so grateful for you. So for those that don't know, I'm sitting, well, not physically, but virtually I'm sitting with Lauren Fortuna Flock, who is the founder of Nested Nourish on Instagram and the host of the Well Nourished Mother podcast. Also funny, I've been on your show, but you haven't been on my podcast yet. What kind of best friends don't... It's funny because we talk about the podcast thing all the time, and we actually have finally decided to kind of do a podcast collab. So this is not technically part

of it. But moving forward, we're going to do some episodes together. So that's just a little sneak peek into that. But basically, the reason that you are sitting with me today is I have had a very intense 2024 so far. We're recording this on March 5th, I think it is, Tuesday, March 5th, 6th, no, 5th, March 5th. And I'm, I've just been sitting with a lot and you have been the person that has held me through most of it. You have been the person, I have dog hair in my mouth, that I have like come to for all the things. And you have been the person I have dog hair in my mouth um that I have like come to for all the things and you have been just this beautiful like neutral feels not like the right word in this context you have just very gracefully held space for me and really helped me to see my own blind

spots in the situations that have unfolded in the past two years two years two months um so with that like because of the neutral stance you've been able to hold it's helped me to not um just kind of like dig myself into a hole and like spiral completely out and I am so appreciative of that so anyways for this episode I really want to just share some of what's been happening and likely over explain myself because that's what I this episode I really want to just share some of what's been happening and likely over explain myself because that's what I do but I'm going to do it unapologetically not apologizing for any of this this has been a conversation that I've been wanting to have but I keep kind of talking myself out of it and I keep just attaching to stories that oh people don't care or I shouldn't let this be a big deal or

I don't even know what other narratives have come up but there's been a lot and again you have been the person that I've been able to talk about it all with and so you offered a little while ago to hold this space for me and kind of help me with this conversation, allow it to be a back and forth thing as opposed to me just talking to myself. And even that brought up so much resistance for me. And I kept thinking, no, like I should be able to do it by myself. I shouldn't need you there. Like you're not even involved. This isn't about you. And I kind of just came to the realization of, wait a minute, maybe this is an opportunity and an invitation for me to really lean into being held and supported and receiving that support that you've been offering. So yeah, thank you for being here. Yeah, you're very welcome, I'm just eager to hear the Nicole that we all love,

the vulnerable, open, honest Nicole. And I hope that this little space that we're creating here today allows you to get some of this stuff out there that I know has been really pulling at your heart and mind for a long time now. So yeah, thanks for letting me be here with you. Yeah, it's funny, like of all days, literally moments before this, meta was down. So like we couldn't log into Instagram or Facebook. And last night, I finally kind of broke my silence on Instagram. I've been kind of hermiting and, yeah, just not really sure how I want to show up in that space. And definitely feeling blocked in my throat and just witnessing a lot of insecurities in myself with using my voice and scared about how I'm going to be perceived and what people are going to think and these massive fears of being misunderstood and rejected. And as I start sharing more into this episode, all of that's going to

make sense. But what's hilarious is I broke that silence just a little bit last night and I kind of rambled on in my stories like I used to um and then this morning couldn't log into Instagram couldn't log into Facebook I thought for sure oh my goodness like I am being like whatever it's a sign yeah like whatever okay this is okay what am I gonna do and um yeah it was just kind of a funny moment of, I don't even know. I don't even know where that story is supposed to go. I'm laughing about it though. And I'm really leaning into just this feeling of like, I cannot be silenced. Like there's moments where it feels like I'm being silenced. There's moments where it feels like people have that power over me.

And I think in this whole situation, that's one of the biggest things I'm kind of taking away is that self-responsibility that I have the honor of holding and also holding the frustrations of noticing where I have given my power away and where I have felt silenced. And this morning I was thinking about how in the early days of the situation that I'm about to share when it happened, my mom said, just don't let this take your sparkle away. And I keep coming back to that of like, oh my goodness, yeah, like my sparkle, like where is it? Where did it go? And like, I know it's there, but it is so scared to shine. And we are both projectors. So we leaning, we have conversations leaning into our human design quite often. And we've talked about how human design and kind of

leaning into this projector essence, having this bird's eye view of things, how that plays out in this situation. And so I'm really excited to have you here to help me kind of stay in that path in this conversation, holding that bird's eye view. And that's something that I'm incredibly proud of in myself, this entire situation is I have done a really good job of in the really hard moments kind of detaching not in a negative way like I'm numbing out but in a you know I'm not going to take this personally I'm going to stay zoomed out in this situation and just kind of witness how things are moving through me without attaching to the story I think I did a really really good job of doing that in the first let's say like four ish weeks and I'd say it was the last the last four weeks where it's really started

to affect me and it's um yeah harder to to detach and noticing how it's definitely pressing on some really deep wounds that likely were never healed, maybe just like stabbed over and now they kind of got ripped open again. So anyways, I feel like I'm already talking too much. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to sip my tea and then I'm going to start sharing the story. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, of course, start wherever you feel called to start. But I would love to know and, you know, maybe chime in about this whenever it feels right. But like where you were at before this all unfolded and like what made you. Yeah. question because it yeah like it just allows me to zoom out even further um and so if I mean I imagine a lot of the people that are listening to this maybe do already know me and have already seen some of my own evolution in online space um but for those that don't, I mean, long story short, I guess, like when I started my online business

basically two-ish years ago and started in the birth space as a birth educator, I had a really hard time finding my voice and even knowing what my own truth was. I noticed myself flip-flopping all over the place to try to appease whoever was following me, I guess. I think looking back, I was really trying to impress definitely some of my mentors and like some of the big influencers in the birth space. And I remember just how good it would feel if like they would like reshare one of my posts. Like it was like I was getting an A plus on an assignment in school. And in those days, I was really only starting my journey of healing some of like the people pleaser, good girl conditioning tendencies. I was really only starting to get into some of the nervous

system stuff and understanding that that was like a fawn response that was going on I was basically like six months postpartum at the time and still unraveling my pregnancy and birth experience and yeah really just trying to perfect and overachieve my business. And over time and kind of in my own transition away from birth work and more generally into like the motherhood space and now into the the entrepreneur space business space um I've been able to unmask a bit more and gain my footing and lean into my own desires and my own truths a little bit more each day and so leading up to um like the beginning of this year so like towards the end of last year I just finished my mastermind recalibrate and was really on like cloud nine from that that was definitely like one of my most successful offers and not just financially but also like energetically

in the way that it made me feel and um just feeling really at peace with the direction of my business and my purpose for lack of a better word in in the online space and what I wanted to like do in this world I guess and then it was in December where uh my previous mentor had actually invited me to be a coach in her program as a mindset and nervous system coach. And that was a really, really big deal for me. Because again, if you've kind of followed my own evolution, there's been a lot of transitions, there's been a lot of pivots, there's been a lot of identity shifts um and so to be recognized as someone basically worthy of coaching 200 plus people on like mindset and nervous system stuff was

a really big deal um again as a print i remember as a projector like it it feels so good to be I remember manifesting. It just kind of felt like all the pieces were coming together and all of the little things I had been working on and the relationships I had been building, everything was making sense and everything was landing. And so that was a really, really, really cool place to be in because it was basically like two years, 18 months in the making. Um, and, uh, yeah, so I guess just to kind of get into what ended up happening, I started that, that coaching job, um, and two weeks into it, I totally indirectly from the coaching thing, I had made a post on Instagram around my stance on the conflict happening in the Middle East and some context on that up till this moment I hadn't shared anything

I obviously had my own thoughts and my own feelings every time I saw other people post I was forming my own opinions I was yeah all these things but I hadn't publicly posted anything and even more context is during COVID and during some other other big worldly events like the BLM movement like all of those times I always stayed silent um COVID specifically, I think this specifically triggered some of the stuff that was going on for me during COVID. And during COVID, I was pregnant and really trying to figure my own stuff out and really having a hard time, again, voicing my truth or even knowing my truth. I very much, again, flip-flopped from one side to the other and could could see both sides and really did take kind of like a neutral stance not because that was what I actually believed but

because that's what felt safe and so um verbally taking a stance on um my views around Israel and Palestine was almost like this pressure cooker of emotion I guess that had been building for I don't know what is that like almost four years like it wasn't just about the conflict going on in the Middle East. It was more so about using my own voice and taking a side, not being this radically neutral person that can just see both sides. And that's not to say that I can't see both sides because I can, but also allowing myself to form my own opinions. And so anyways, the post was all around being nice and white during a sorry, being nice and white during a genocide. And it was I basically I don't want to say this.

It was it was an expert excerpt from someone's sub stack. I don't remember the name. I don't actually think I follow her. But I had saw it a couple times that week and each time it really made me feel something and each time I was like oh my gosh okay like this is giving language to my experience right now um and like I said it's it's giving language not just to the genocide but to all these other events that I have basically been nice and white and people pleasing it and um I mean part of why I shared some of the the other bits and pieces of my story is because the people pleasing part is so big in this story and so that post was kind of like I don't even know like I don't want to say redemption but like it it, it felt very, very, very true for me in the moment. I remember I was also on day 28 of my cycle. And I know that like,

when I am about to start bleeding, and when I am bleeding, that veil between my conscious and subconscious is so, so, so, so thin that when stuff is coming up into my awareness, like I know it's truth. I feel it in my bones as truth. And as much as in my luteal phase, the inner critic can be really loud. I've over the past couple of cycles, I've gotten really, really good at discerning those voices and leaning into my truth. So in that moment, when it all came up and it all felt ready to be expressed, I don't think anyone could have stopped me. It wasn't even something that I talked to anyone about before posting and before sending an email out. It was just something that

was ready to be expressed. And so it was expressed. And what's interesting is the corner of the internet that I'm in I would say like literally 95% I would almost say almost 100% of the posts I see regarding this conflict are saying the same stuff I was saying so I didn't even think my post was going to be controversial. And again, just to kind of move on with the story, 24 hours later, I got an email basically explaining that due to the tone of my post and the way it made some people feel, the decision was made to let me go from that coaching position. And in the moment, I was obviously sad and disappointed. But again, that people pleaser in me and the Canadian in me blurted out an apology. Like really the first thing I said is like I'm so sorry I like I don't even remember

what I said but like I'm sorry to have just like put you in this situation to have had to make this decision um and so very quickly my nervous system went into like a fawn response and wanted to appease the people around me and wanted to make sure everyone else was comfortable. And again, I was kind of teetering between recognizing that nervous system response, holding space for it and recognizing that, okay, this makes sense. Like this is my default response in times of stress and discomfort this is just my body's way of trying to keep me safe and then also holding space for like I know I didn't do anything wrong I know that I was standing in my truth um and yeah just kind of holding all of it and then um basically the weeks to follow things got really, really intense in the birth

worker community in general online. And, um, the people that I know, um, not so much about my post being polarizing or not, but the events that happened inside the coaching community going forward and concerns about like censorship and gatekeeping and just other people not necessarily feeling safe and wondering well am I going to be silenced or cancelled if I say something on my own personal social media and some really big questions just about what's allowed to be said and like what's too political what's too much what's like just just really exploring I guess what things like autonomy and free speech and self-responsibility what those things actually

look like in real life. Because I think for many of us, we talk about those as really big values that many of us hold, but it's different when you actually are in situations and in places where it's either being embodied or it's not and so um yeah I think basically my termination was just a teeny tiny part of the story and what ended up happening was my termination shined light on a fracture within a system um that was always. It just wasn't observable yet. And yeah, I mean, as an outsider, I think what was the most kind of fascinating was just how it was all handled. Like it could have all been handled in such a different way and could have been, you know, a beautiful kind of learning experience for everyone involved. And instead it kind of crumbled into this like taking sides kind of situation. But more than that, what I thought was really interesting

about this, you know, for you, both interesting and unfortunate and beautiful all at the same time was that, you know, you expressed that there was all of this kind of fear to use your voice. And then you finally do use your voice on a very important topic. And then what happens? The absolute worst case scenario, right? Yeah. It's, it's literally like telling your nervous system, like, oh, you were scared. Well, for good reason. Because there was a bear, right? We're always joking about, oh, there's not actually a bear. And there, there was a bear in this instance. And I think that's another thing that I kind of should speak on is, yeah, like when I made that post, I know I said that like I didn't really think it was going to be that controversial. But I did know that it was one of those things that was going to put me in the position of having to hold some hard conversations.

And I was willing to do that and very open to it, actually. And I was prepared. And I did. Yes, thank you did prepared at what and I did yes thank you for saying that and I did but I was also like very prepared for the unfollows and unsubscribes like I was prepared for that level of rejection my nervous system was was ready for that um but yeah what actually ended up happening wasn't even something that I considered it wasn't even something on the table um and that was definitely hard to digest and um again kind of like the good girl conditioning that kind of sunk in is of course um kind of just like the voices in my head of like challenging me and like wondering like well did

I do something wrong what could I have done differently or what can I have done better and I think one of the things I really walked away from is like it's it's not about that like it's not about good versus bad like there isn't really that binary um way of thought in this context at least from my opinion, like, what you just shared is, yeah, like, things kind of crumbled, and there were many moments of opportunity for repair, and for things to go very differently, and unfortunately, none of those things ended up happening, and that wasn't from my own doing um it was very unfortunate to continue to be I'm just going to say like silenced and rejected in different ways because that's ultimately what it felt like um to the point of legal threats and real real fears about how my words were being articulated and so again from yeah or twist

exactly and like so yeah from that nervous system perspective like it there was a bear there were actual threats of what is going to happen to um my business and my coaching reputation and financially for my family like all of those things were very very real and again it's also interesting just to witness my own inner world and how I almost want to be so quick to dismiss all that and like oh it wasn't that bad it really wasn't that bad like people have it way way worse um and yeah there's some truth to that but there's also truth and this was really really intense this was really really. These things were still true for me. So it's been a really cool opportunity to kind of flex that space holding capability for myself, because I do it so well to other people um but I continue to kind of play small and suppress my own feelings and emotions and tell myself that like I'm not worthy of having these feelings so that's probably what

being one of the biggest um lessons in all of this is just that opportunity to hold space for from my own emotions and attempt to feel them all the way through. And I think this all kind of shines light on this larger cultural conversation around, you know, this lack of nuance, binary, choosing sides, all of these things, this place that we've found ourselves in, especially on social media where everyone feels safe behind a keyboard or a phone. Yeah, I don't know if you want to go that route or whatever else is feeling alive in your heart. just asking some hard questions around nuance versus neutrality and how they differ how they're the same how they show up in this situation and I honestly don't know if I have answers for any of that yet um there's still a lot of integration that needs to happen um and one of the other really big questions and maybe we can go in this direction is just around cancel culture and the loudness that

all of this kind of transmuted into online I never expected any of that and that's not my personality calling out and being loud are not things that I think anyone would would put as descriptors for Nicole um and so there was a lot of discomfort in my body and I definitely I know I verbalized this to you many times just about how just uncomfortable I was seeing some of the posts that were like fiercely defending me like that was the confusing thing is like these things should feel good people were defending me um but it didn't feel good it didn't feel good at all um I was very very uncomfortable with the public calling out and the online shaming towards just the other side. And the entire time, again, I verbalized some of this to you, where I kept having this desire to protect, and I guess this is kind of the people pleaser and like the phone response of like wanting to make everyone else comfortable and so that included um

yeah like just yeah I mean I'm really trying hard to keep this I guess like as neutral as possible without naming any names um but yeah you really felt for the people that were involved every yeah literally exactly literally all people that were involved and I think I continued to reorient to choosing compassion that actually came really really naturally to me um and I remember even a moment of wondering like wait am I create like there yeah there was a very specific moment where it was almost like my ego was trying to tell me like oh like you should fight like what what happened was wrong like you should you should do something you should fight um and like my own inner knowing my own inner voice just continuing to root into like no I can just choose

like love and compassion and forgiveness I guess and all of this and really seeing everyone involved simply as humans right humans that just like me like brush their teeth every morning and burn their toast and make mistakes and I think for me one of the hardest things one of the biggest emotions that quite frankly I'm still moving through is grief grieving over the loss of a mentor in a relationship that just with someone that I had looked up to for basically two years and and feeling into the disappointment of being let down with how they made decisions and how they chose to move forward with the situation and I can also recognize that like disappointment has more to do with me than it does to do with situation and I can also recognize that like disappointment has more to do with me than it does to do with them right I can hold that I can hold

that that disappointment is on me and it's not about me trying to change or fix their behaviors it's yeah it's it's all so intense anyways, coming back to like this piece around council culture, just like massive, massive discomfort around seeing some of the loudness online and verbalizing that and not necessarily putting a stop to it. were being louder than I was are allowed to use their voice and actually being reminded that there's many many ways to express our truth and for some people excuse me for some people that is like speaking and using their voice for some people it's it's like actions and so it's something that you can see and for some people it's like just the way you feel and so remembering that the whole human experience has to do with like what we hear what we see what we feel what we think and um I guess not not compartmentalizing just the loud Instagram posts because that that very easily could have been blown in like blown out of proportion when there was like other things also happening

don't even know if that made sense yeah maybe not I'm following we're not I'm not I'm not editing this out so like that can just be in there um there. I do want to share and I feel okay with naming names in this context, because there's other podcasts that I'll probably link in the show notes. Bianca Sprague from Bibomia. I actually haven't been in her corner of the internet up until this event um and it became apparent to me that she was involved in um her own situation I think a couple years ago um and has kind of done a deep dive into cancel culture and the impact it has on mental health and um has become a huge advocate for anti-cancel culture, specifically in the birth space, because she runs a very successful doula training company. And she was recently on the Nicole Joy show, Nicole Joy's podcast, who also used to be a mentor of mine. So I actually

just listened to this episode earlier this week. And again, I shared this with you, Lauren, that after I listened to it, because they were speaking about cancel culture and they spoke about this situation without using names. And I, again, felt so much discomfort about being talked about, but not being talked about. like it was this really weird um like I don't know like I feel like I should be part of this conversation like it's weird to have people that I've had communication with it's not like these people are complete strangers to me um it was weird to have them indirectly talking about me without having me at the table with them so that kind of speaks to the importance of me really wanting to have this episode and have this conversation. I feel like this is still being talked about, even if I don't know it is. And I think it's going to continue to be something that gets related back to either as a what not to do or this is how it was handled or whatever it is. Like, I feel like this is now, unfortunately, like a textbook example and I am in the center of it. And that's a really,

really weird feeling to hold, especially when it was never my intention. Yeah. And just that idea of, yeah, like you were listening to that podcast, not knowing at all that they were going to talk about you. So I can only imagine how weird that would be to all of a sudden be like, wait a minute, that's call it four weeks, things have completely quieted down to the point of me actually wondering like, oh, wait, is this still a big deal? And again, kind of like gaslighting my own emotions of like, well, I shouldn't think it's a big deal if like, people aren't talking about it anymore. So to have it reintroduced into kind of a public space was yeah I guess like a weird mix of validation and oh I don't want to be in the middle of this I hear Aubrey crying I'm gonna pause for a second hold whatever thought you're about to say okay Aubrey's hanging out with us

Aubrey's not having the best day so hey Aub do you want to say hi to Lauren no you just want to snuggle do you want some milk no I don't think Zoe's with Lauren today she's not home right now this is lauren yeah so anyways i think i just said the holding the duality of and really this speaks to the entire situation of this this really really big range of intense feelings of on one side being validated and fiercely defended and celebrated and then on the other side obviously not um and being silenced and um threatened and having my words get twisted um and so yeah kind of just re-experiencing that hearing the podcast episode in the sense of oh yeah there's that like really weird feeling again of being validated and not I don't even know what I'm trying to say like not in the sense of picking sides and you're right they're wrong but just in validation of like this experience like did happen.

And it was intense because I think that was another like thing is there was a big moment where I think I kind of held on to this. Hopefully this isn't real. Like hopefully this is all just going to like fix itself. Hopefully there's going to be repair. Hopefully this can all be put behind us. And I don't remember exactly when, but there was a moment where it was like okay no like this is real this is what happened um there is no opportunity for repair there is no opportunity

to build back trust um the damage has been done and like having zero control over it like that was the hardest part is even though I was available for conversation and I was the entire time willing to hold that space it wasn't reciprocated um and people could see that so then there was the validation of like oh Nicole like what you're going through sucks like I'm sorry this is happening to you I'm celebrating your like bravery and courage but then also all of the feelings that I was feeling it I don't even like it doesn't make sense in my mind so I imagine it probably doesn't make sense if you're listening to this either but it just kind of paints the picture of how intense and messy all of this got. Yeah. And, you know,

as you're, as you're speaking to this, all I can think about is like, that's not how you work. Like you don't work in, in this space of black and white and you create spaces that allow people to come to you in their full expression. And, you know, you get into the nuance and you have conversations and you ask good questions. And, you know, even if you don't agree with someone, you can come to this, this place of understanding the other and having compassion for the other. And it's, it's your deep compassion that I think is what made you want to post about this terrible thing happening in this other place to begin with, right? It's your compassion. It's your, you know, the heartbreak that you feel when you read about it and see about it. And no, you don't have to know everything about it to be able

to be like, hey, wait a minute, something about this doesn't feel right. And I think it's that kind of compassion for other humans that brought you to this to begin with. Totally. Which makes it all ironic. Yeah. To then be met with such a lack of compassion and no room for discussion, like literally being shot down and not being able to have a conversation at all. It's just not the space that you have built. It's not the way that you work in the world. And it's so sad that

we live in a culture. And again, especially in online culture, where that's just normalized, like, oh, you said something I don't like, I now don't like you. And there's no room for nuance. There's no room for conversation. It's just, oh, I didn't like what you said. You're not taking the right side. So you're wrong. It's either right or wrong, black or white. And it's really unfortunate that we are still in this place, especially after all of the COVID and, you know, all of that mess too. Yeah. it's even more um not okay in the birth space right as birth workers as doulas as um people that are in that heart-led values aligned business development kind of space like and what's also ironic is

the months leading up to this I had already been kind of sniffing out incongruence in what I kind of call like the heart-led business spaces and um yeah again it's just it's just so interesting to see how this all unfolded um and the blind spots that have now been revealed to a lot of people um and I guess I also want to comment just in case people were asking because I didn't give a lot of details around what happened in kind of the the week after my termination and um yeah so I just want to make it clear that there were no opportunities for me to really have a conversation there were no opportunities for me to repair and build trust back with the people that voiced discomfort or disappointment in my posts. And the community got loud in defending me,

which I think actually put more friction and fuel onto the fire. And I think some of the mishandling from a more like business community perspective that happened was as a result of the pushback. So again, it wasn't necessarily even due to me and my post anymore. And that's why I kind of said that there's like my termination was just one part of it but then kind of everything that unfolded after is really what's what's big in this situation and um what ended up happening is the story started to change when there was more people questioning my termination and that's when there was um I'm trying to be really careful with my words and I I hate that I have to be um I hate that I'm at this place where I'm yeah literally um just being very very careful with how I try to explain this but basically like my coaching reputation was challenged and there was like false accusations about my actions and so I think that's the hardest part if it could have just been as simple as

being let go from a really cool position because there was a disagreement in views like that's it's not okay but it's something that I think would have been easier to get over and kind of we can just agree to disagree um but it wasn't that it became bigger and it became um yeah just I'm having a really hard time finding words to explain kind of what ended up happening but what if we kind of zoom out a bit more like and and like talk about this idea of self-responsibility like you can like take responsibility for your actions and you're within this birth world culture that's all about self-responsibility and then to be kind of shunned for that I don't know if any of this is kind of helping you here um yes and no I mean everything you're saying is accurate but what was coming to mind as I was hearing you is informed choice and that was a really big piece to the people that were, I guess, quote unquote, defending me or on my side,

even though like, I don't want there to be sides in this situation at all. But one of the biggest things that people were trying to bring attention to is, hey, we need we we teach our clients all about informed choice there needs to be that opportunity here too and that wasn't happening that transparency was not still is not, which I think makes it even harder for me to find my words because so much has been covered up and kind of pushed under the rug that I do kind of start feeling crazy. Like maybe I'm not supposed to be talking about this. Maybe this is wrong. Maybe this is going to get me in trouble again. It doesn't feel safe. And I think one of the bigger things, and maybe we can just kind of move on. One of the biggest things that I've been sitting with over the past couple weeks is just I guess some feelings of frustration about how much power I've let this situation have over me

and my voice and my actions because I did spend like I kind of just shared like two years kind of building up to be able to be in this place where I felt safe enough to self-express and voice my truth online and then like we said kind of the worst case scenario happened and it got even more muddy and complex and some really big hard conversations were brought to the surface and just as quickly shut down um and I feel like the Nicole way the projector in me wants to continue shining light on some of those big things and I I mean, we've brought in threads of that in this conversation around nuance versus neutrality and cancel culture. And one of the biggest questions that I've been sitting with is like, what's our role in holding people accountable, specifically for things that they

fiercely promote as values but aren't embodying um what no more you want more this is my tea do you want more milk no do you want to go see grandpa more milk so yeah that accountability piece and I think answer, at least that I've come to in this moment, and it could change is that we can't hold someone accountable if they don't want to be held accountable. And that comes back to the self responsibility piece, right? So we do each have to hold our own accountability, we have to be self-responsible. We have to be self-accountable. We have to be willing to look ourselves in the mirror. And when things are triggering, for lack of a better word, or confronting or activating in some way, it's our responsibility

to look within and figure out, okay, why is this making me feel some kind of way, instead of being so quick to react. And so because none of that happened in this entire situation, I think just the importance of that is weighted even more than it already was. And I think there's some collective disappointment that that wasn't modeled to us by someone that has been an influence and an inspiration and that's for me one of the hardest things is recognizing that the entire situation and the person did end up having power over my feelings and kind of like a like a parent um and when a parent is when a parent disappoints you I mean I don't know if other people have this experience but like I feel like if my parent disappoints me I can sit with that disappointment but I almost want to make sure that nobody else experiences that and I almost want to cover it up and not let

anyone else see that side of them and I was experiencing a lot of that and that was really confusing yeah and I'm imagining that other people have experienced some of that too and I think that it's messy and it's confusing and I think it goes into maybe the category of grief and I think grief is probably one of the most confusing emotions to understand and maybe it's not something we're supposed to understand maybe it's just something we're supposed to feel right I mean that's what all of those emotions are and as a society we're not that great at doing that. Aubrey you can't touch my keyboard sweetheart. I feel like I'm kind of all over the place right now. And I knew this would happen. I knew this conversation would not be linear in any way.

And I don't think it should be. But I think, yeah, I guess kind of bringing it back to me for a second. Where I'm at right now is just trying to figure out my place in all of this and how to find the courage to use my voice again now that and it's almost funny to think about because logically I almost want to say to myself oh well like the worst case scenario already happened so like what are you scared of like nothing worse can happen but that's not actually how things like this work right this this totally opened up a wound and so now there's a lot of vulnerability and that fear feels even more real because it was validated. Yeah. And it's like now really all you can do is take the lessons

from the experience and bring that into how you'll show up moving forward while taking responsibility for your actions, for your words, for your, um, for what you do understand for what you don't yet understand. Um, I think this idea of impact and intention is important as well. Like we talked about that early on you and I, Yeah. Like the intention of your words versus the impact and how they're received. And on one hand, you know, there's self-responsibility and people need to, you know, take responsibility for how that they are receiving things, but there's also a portion of it on you as the person sharing your words. And I think another piece that just keeps like swirling through my head is just

like, I can hold so much compassion for how emotionally charged this topic is to begin with. So this topic of, you know, what's happening in the Middle East, and then also these topics of cancel culture and being let down by a mentor, like all of these things compassion for how charged people are. Like when I'm reading comment sections on posts like yours and seeing all of the intense emotion flying around, it's like I get it. People are feeling heavy for a million different reasons and it's coming out as this like us versus them

when I don't know, at least my opinion it's it's us and us yeah no it is us and us and if it's going to be an us versus them it's us versus the system that has kind of created these um just ways of responding. Like it's almost like at one point there was permission slips granted of like, for some reason, it's okay to do this to someone when you feel this way. And like, I don't know when that was ever okay. Cause it's not okay.

But I think these feel like some really big words, but like there was some major white supremacy vibes happening in this whole situation. people aren't willing to put up with that. And I appreciate that. I appreciate the passion and just desire to move towards collective liberation and social justice. And again, these really, really big themes. And and of course when I made my post while those are values of mine it was never the intention to make waves that were bringing those things to the surface in this specific community and it did and I think the other really important thing to name here is that I think people and even myself, like I have done this where like it just feels safer to room for any of this friction and that is true but also I think as birth workers and change makers and visionaries and people that want to see a change in this world like if if you are feeling the dysfunction and the heaviness and all of this

these conversations do have to be had they don't have to be public you don't have to be loud on social media you don't have to be taking a stance in your social media stories but I do really really believe that the conversations need to be had so even if you are just soundboarding to yourself in a voice note or talking to your dog I don't care that you need to be expressing some of these feelings because these things are really really big um and like I had kind of described like for me it was this almost like pressure cooker of like COVID and this and like all of the other political events that have happened that I stayed silent in um I kind of went on a tangent here but I just come back to the importance of we want to keep politics out of it because it feels safer.

But if we continue to keep politics out of it, we're never going to see the change that we want to see in the world. And we're all just kind of staying silent out of fear, right? But we're in this culture that demands action and demands that you say something but also if you say the wrong thing according to certain people then you're going to be shunned and canceled so it's like the snake eating its tail kind of situation when I guess that's where I'm frustrated with the system I'm frustrated the system that has given permission for cancel culture and like online shaming to even be a thing i'm frustrated with a system that has yeah allowed and again permiss is that a permissified is that a word

permiss i don't even know what the appropriate word is but like it's been normalized that you can act a certain way behind your computer screen um and unfortunately that's taught to us like as kids right there's cyber bullies and there's whatever like we all feel safer behind a screen and i understand why but it doesn't mean it's okay um and we can't anyways i oh go ahead i was just gonna say I want to I want to make sure that I link the podcast episode with Bianca and Nicole because it is a really good conversation just around the impact of online shaming on mental health and why we shouldn't do it and like yeah there it's one thing to be calling people in and calling people out but we don't

have to do it publicly and I think that's just again an important narrative in the context of all of this that all of this could have been so different had things been less public and if the hard conversations were actually held and given space for instead of just doors being closed and eyes being turned because that's what ended up happening. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I just wanted to say that we can't talk about embodiment without talking about we have to voice our feelings about these things both about this situation and cancel culture but also about the atrocities that are happening in our world and it's like this delicate balance between kind of like you said like no you don't have to publicly

voice your opinion and for me I was more of that person that you know was staying silent out of fear probably my own little bit of trauma post-COVID world because I'm one of those people that was fired for being unvaccinated. So, you know, I was on the wrong side there. Wrong in quotations. So what was really inspiring for me from you was just your ability to take a stand and say something. And like you said, for me, I'm not somebody that's going to go and kind of plaster it all over my social media. That's just not who I am. But am I having these conversations in person with the people I love? Yeah, I am. And am I learning and growing and not letting, like not letting myself just put my head in the

sand and not think about it and not look at it and not feel the emotions that are coming up. No. So that's what's, I think, you know, witnessing you gracefully, as gracefully as you could kind of navigate this situation has really helped me realize that, yeah, there is a difference between nuance and neutrality. There's a difference between being silent and just, you know, taking my, my action and my advocacy elsewhere off social media and that's okay. Yeah. So I've loved all of the really deep conversations that we've had to had that we've got to have because of all of of this yeah I have too because you've like I said from the beginning like you've neutral doesn't feel like the right word because um it's I don't know I get it you've just held space um and and you've held space so perfectly for me to kind of like squirm around a bit right like I've been able to maybe say the wrong thing or practice saying things differently or um

I don't know you've just constantly inspired me to remain curious and to see all sides and to continue looking at this kind of from that bird's eye view that we as projectors do naturally and that's been really empowering for me um every time I can reorient to that um there was something else I was gonna say when you were sharing um this wasn't it but I do want to speak on just the importance of not just protecting your heart but protecting your own nervous system and noticing what's dysregulating for you um right and if if talking about this stuff publicly on and online i mean it's it's likely dysregulating to a point for all of us but just feeling in the the duality of like it being completely dysregulating to the point of jacking up your nervous system or it also being on the other side kind of like empowering and this this way to actually stand in your truth and embody that because I

think like you said so many of us and this was my story up until two months ago I was silent because of the fear and so every time I was choosing silence, I was suppressing my own truth. And that's exactly what like people pleasers do, right? You suppress your own truth. You are self-abandoning yourself to appease other people, to make the people around you comfortable. And so as much as I want to say oh well don't publicly post stuff online because it's dysregulating and it's just going to create opportunity for people to take sides I also want to say that it's also empowering as fuck and it's a way to stand in your truth and so put yourself in spaces that you feel safe to express is maybe my message

here um and it's funny because I thought I had that oh that's a different story I'm trying to remember there was something else I wanted to speak on um and I literally was like oh I want to touch on this otherwise I'm not going to feel complete until I do and I've lost it for a second um what if we pause for a sec I wanted to check in on your energy because I noticed a big shift about probably about halfway through um where it you know from my perspective it seemed like you were getting a little maybe losing some of the excitement and like the the kind of jittery energy that you had at the beginning so I'm just wondering where are you at right now how are you feeling after kind of

getting all of this out so far checking in with your body with your heart yeah my body and my heart is actually feeling a lot of fear I'm already kind of rewinding the tape and worried that I've said the wrong thing that I've said too much um or maybe that I've said too little and I haven't explained myself well enough um which makes sense like I knew that was gonna come up and that's something that I will get to hold and tend to share some of this um and I'm really hopeful that some of this opens conversation whether it's directly with me or even just in the inner circles of whoever is listening like I that would make my day to know that some of these hard conversations are actually being had

because I think that's one of the hardest things that I've been sitting with in all of this is just um worried I guess disappointed again I know those are kind of my own things to hold but some disappointment if this all just gets shoved under the rug because I think all of this does bring up a lot of lesson for the collective but we have to be willing to face it and we have to be willing to sit with each other and be curious and non-judgmental and open um yeah and to hold all these big emotions for each other with each other yeah this wasn't what I wanted to share but I do want to make sure it's said in this episode. And that's that there have been kind want to act and how we want to collectively use our energy with purpose and in a productive way. to begin hosting um bi-weekly community calls for um birth workers that are I don't even know how to I don't love putting people in boxes but like that are they're willing to have these hard conversations that are wanting to uh use birth work and their role as doulas or childbirth educators or postpartum, whatever,

whatever you are in that industry, for lack of a better word, we are creating a space that we can all sit together with curiosity and open hearts and to move towards collective healing and collective liberation and it's funny because I am not known to do things without kind of a bigger picture and like almost like an outcome which is funny because obviously in the birth space and even in my own coaching like I say not to attach to outcomes but what feels funny about all of this is it feels like there is no outcome it feels like the the purpose is just to see where it takes us to open the doors to open our eyes to open our hearts um and create that space that hasn't existed at least that I know of I don't know of any other spaces that are holding um rooms like this so yeah twice a month we're gonna meet we're gonna hold space we're gonna have hard

conversations um and I'm really excited to be a part of that, because I kind of dipped my toes out of the birth world, and then I dipped my toes back in, and then I kind of got shunned, for lack of a better word, and this feels really aligned, and really purposeful, and productive, so I'm excited for that, I will link details to that in the show notes of this episode. And yeah, I don't remember what it was. There was something else. And it's probably going to come to me at like 3 a.m. in the morning. I'm totally like retracing the conversation because there was something that one of us said that kind of triggered that oh I want to talk

about this I really want to pull it back nervous system generational trauma self-responsibility autonomy embodiment without voicing our feelings these are such juicy, important themes. I know. And this is the irony of it all, right, Lauren? And you already kind of reflected this back, just the irony of it all, that this is the stuff that I live and breathe. Even the about page on my website is all about how much I love liminality and that in-between space and the nuance of life. And so the irony of how black and white this got is hilarious and I can step back and laugh about it and also hold space for the intensity. And I think you have the ability, and this isn't meant to like call you out either,

but I think this kind of highlights where I have been kind of that neutral maybe not neutral again that word yeah that word doesn't fit yeah I'm not not unbiased either because I am biased um you're my friend but I think you also have the ability to have that self-responsibility that some of the words that maybe you chose in that original post were black and white and did elicit some of that lack of nuance. At least I'm putting myself in the place of some of the people that probably had an issue with it because I have that ability to do that. I can like put myself in their shoes for a sec and be like, okay, I heard it this way. So

it means this. And is that to say that that's right or correct or good? No. Cause again, everybody's coming at these things from their own place of generational experiences and hurts and, and emotionally charged nervous systems and histories and all of that stuff. So what I'm hearing is like this certain side or these certain people going, yeah, you're talking all about nuance, but you chose words that were very black and white. And it's unfortunate that again, that's where we're at, where it's like, you say one thing, it means you're against this other thing. And I know you, and I know that that's not the case, but I know that you can take responsibility for how maybe your words came across without apologizing for them either. Cause there's that too. Like you said, you said things, you stated your stance, you shared what was on your heart and that is all good.

And it's, it's unfortunate unfortunate that that everything is received in such a binary way so i don't know if that kind of made sense but just trying to like play a little bit and i think it really speaks to the complexity of neutrality versus nuance yeah right because I feel like if we are specifically online specifically just like in content creation because that's ultimately what this like that's what we're referring to is an Instagram graphic right and that's already part of the issue is there's only like the whole point of English language is to be specific and um yeah like articulate things that like the English language doesn't have enough words to hold the nuance that we might be feeling inside so yes yes, I can, I can hold that responsibility that my words were black and white, but that doesn't negate the openness and nuance that my heart

still holds. And I'm trying to think of like a lighter example to make that make sense, because I think this really does explain nuance versus neutrality. If I was neutral, then you would never use that black and white language, right? Because the black and white language takes away that neutrality. But in the case of one static Instagram post or one email, like when it's not a back and forth conversation, unless I had like 12 disclaimers after that post, you can't articulate that nuance. So that nuance is only there for people willing to engage in conversation with me, which I was more than willing to do. Right. And so that's where it gets so messy is yeah I mean it is just messy I think the other thing that I want to speak on and this is totally me over explaining this is not really that important but I think from my understanding part of what made this specific post stand out is because I had been completely silent to this point so

it wasn't expected of me it was a surprise um and I think the fact that it was the first post and it was a very direct post that made it feel even more black and white the con like there wasn't enough context around it to hold the nuance that was behind it yeah and the nuance followed like I mean all these posts are still on my Instagram page so like if anyone is completely new here and has no idea what we're talking about it's all there I haven't even like deleted any of the comments it's all there um I was just gonna say if I was listening to this I'd be like oh my god I need to find this post yeah I mean I'll link them in the show notes too because what the heck um it's the can of worms that I opened up. So yeah, I don't know. I think it is just the online space is a really interesting place. We know that. And I think like in my line of work as like a conscious business coach who really has a passion for like nervous system shit um again the irony is just even bigger with all of that but I think it's interesting how so many of us speaking to kind of the community of people in my world are working towards deeper embodiment

and safety with self-expression and this whole neutrality versus nuance and black and white language um it gets really really complex and it makes it almost feel impossible to express yourself like I made it we've talked about this already in this conversation and I made a post that like you're damned if you speak you're damned if you don't so you might as well just say whatever is true to you and that's the thing as long as if it it's true to you in that moment that's the other thing too is you're allowed to change your mind um but if what you are expressing in that moment feels true that like that's the end of it that period end of story like it can be that simple but then this also weaves in the intent versus impact and obviously we have responsibility over our intent and the intentions with whatever language we're using

whatever actions we're taking um and we can hold compassion for the impact that it might have but ultimately we can't take responsibility at least in my opinion and maybe this is a whole other can of worms but i don't think we can take responsibility for the impact because the impact is subjective based on the recipient's nervous system. And that's where these distortions happen. That's where things get perceived differently than whatever the intention was. That's where people feel triggered and confronted, right? That's it. It's so complex. Yeah.

And I think this is, it's all about replacing or with and. So it's, it's not just, you know, having, it's not just speaking my truth or having self-responsibility i don't know if that's the right example but it's it's speaking my truth and having self-responsibility it's speaking my truth and knowing that the impact might not match my intention it's free palestine and the innocent israelis i just have to throw that in there. Right. But like, I can understand how the words of free Palestine on their own.

Take away any space holding and compassion for the other side, even though that was never my intention right yeah I'm glad you're saying those words because I feel like we both kind of danced around them so far and I was getting to this like point of like okay this is silly why aren't we just saying what we're talking about here if I was listening to this I'd be like what is going on yeah maybe maybe I'll use that clip as the beginning so people know exactly what they're walking into I also want to I feel like I really don't want to walk away from this feeling incomplete and having all these like spin-offs of oh I wish I said that and I'm already gonna

have this big one that I've lost but but pause because again you can't you're not going to be able to cover every single thing in one conversation because there's but I really do want this to be kind of complete at this point right this is a big thing over the past eight weeks as I feel like I've already been drawing it out and I actually thank you for saying this because I wanted to name this that part of the significance and the importance of even having this episode was feeling incongruence I guess feeling like continuing on with just normal Nicole content would be out of integrity it felt inauthentic to just start talking about like conscious creation and like cycle syncing and nervous system regulation and business creation. Like it didn't feel right to just jump into that stuff without opening this conversation up because it's been so big for me. And I feel like I've already shared like little bits of it online,

but because it hasn't felt completely safe to share it all I've wanted to have this time in place to put it all on the table so I'm really glad it's here um and yes absolutely as much as this is a bit of closure for me it's also um an invitation to continue these hard conversations with me right like I I am inviting these conversations so um totally lost my train of thought again, because I was going to say something. Sorry. That's so funny. I think this one was partially my fault. Oh, I know what I was going to say. There's been some really incredible episodes that I've listened to from Kiddist from the womb room I don't know

if you listen to her podcast at all they weaved in some really important language around these conversations around some specific parts that stand out and again I'll link this in the show notes but around how we all hold bits of the oppressed and the oppressor in us and I think that's really profound to sit with and just recognize that it like yeah there there's the duality of both within all of us and really leaning into the generational lineage behind each of us and how that is playing a part in our nervous systems and how we're perceiving some of these conversations and then the other thing they talk about is shoot I'm blanking on what they called it, something along the lines of kind of like right action and what is the right action. And part of discerning and finding out what the right action for you really, really involves getting quiet and kind of like moving past all of the projections that might be on you and

the good girl conditioning of like well I'm just doing this because of this like binary good and bad thinking the people pleasing shit about like well I'm just doing this to appease someone else and really really really coming back to your own heart and your own center and I think that's really important in this case and I think it's a incredible exercise for all of us to practice a little more often in maybe like less charged situations to really start playing with okay what is true for me in this moment and what feels right um yeah anyways I will link that episode because it was really good and then the other thing I think just around how all of this has really maybe this is what I wanted to speak on is just the light that has been shined shown

shone shown light the light that has been shined isn't the right word. I don't think that's right. The light that has illuminated. There you go. Some of, and I've talked to you about this in one of our previous conversations, how some of these things are really big values of mine and I haven't been expressing them right around just like social justice and um like collective liberation feels fluffy but it still feels true to me. And those things aren't things that I express frequently on my social media page. And I think that's part of what made this specific post so big is it was unexpected, which created space for people to be disappointed because they

weren't expecting it from me. They thought differently of me, but now it's kind of opened up this beautiful can of worms for me to be more mindful about weaving these things into my own expression, because they're things that have been suppressed. They're things that haven't felt safe to talk about. And so I'm really grateful for that. But I'm also insanely uncomfortable with it because of course the thoughts of, oh, well, am I going to be misunderstood? Am I going to be rejected? Are people going to be disappointed in me? Are people going to, whatever it is, right? Those are all still so real. And the answer is yes. know yeah I know like yeah you will and that's okay and and yeah learning to be okay with that is really hard um yeah I hope that this gives I hope this can give start over word vomit I'm not editing that out I hope that this experience and this episode this experience of finally you know kind of

using your voice I hope it allows you to give yourself permission to move forward and not in a way where you're just you know that's the end of that moving on but in this way that you get to continue your big and valuable work in this world with these new lessons and these new perspectives and that you really get to sink into those values that you now know are so important to you, but you haven't been kind of weaving into your work and your world and your online space. I hope this gives you permission to start doing that, even though it's scary and standing in your integrity even more than you already do. And I hope that this allows you to start using your voice again and sinking into that self-resourced safety in whatever ways that you can.

Because this was a big deal for you. It is a big deal in general. Like we've talked about, it's brought up so many other themes and topics and big conversations in our culture right now. And it makes sense that it has affected you so much. And it makes sense that you've needed a way to kind of almost complete it, but still leaving the door open for conversation. And I think, you know, the biggest lesson I've had from witnessing this experience and witnessing you is that it's kind of, again, shone a mirror, shined a mirror. Oh, man.

Illuminated. I swear we're smart. It's illuminated or it's turned a mirror back on myself. There we go. And my own actions and how I am quick to make conclusions about other people, especially online, because of one statement or because of a lack of a statement or staying silent or the opposite. You know what I mean? and my own lack of compassion and my own lack of understanding and curiosity. And, you know, if I'm confused about something, someone's saying, why can't I start a conversation about it and get curious? And so that's what I'm taking away from this. So thank you for that. But yeah, like I

said, I hope this, this gives you permission to move forward and continue your work because it's so needed. Yeah. I am receiving all of that, letting it land. Thank you. I also want to add the permission slip of continuing to take messy action. I think one of the side effects of all of this very easily could be me falling back into my perfectionist tendencies and not wanting to show up until things are perfectly curated and perfectly orchestrated. And that's not me. That's not my brand. That's not me that's not my brand it's not my mission so um yeah permission for myself to find safety again in the messy action um and even just allowing this podcast episode to be what it is I was really worried about um recording it and not having value, not having these beautifully and tangibly

curated lessons to send home with whoever's listening. And I think we were talking about this before we started recording that that's not Nicole like I don't I don't teach that way I very rarely come on and tell you okay these are the five things that you're going to take away today this is how to do this this is blah blah blah like I I really lean into my own experience and storytelling and allowing the receiver or the listener to this to take what lands and leave the rest. So maybe I'll just finish this episode by saying, take what lands and leave the rest and really listen to all of this. I mean, it's too late now because we're about to wrap up, but if you're feeling confronted in some kind of way just an invitation

to get curious with your own um inner world right now and hold space and compassion for whatever it is that you're experiencing those emotions aren't wrong those emotions are simply communication and they are dying to be heard and held and seen by you. So yeah, thank you to you, Lauren. Thank you to whoever is listening. I wish I could say I was feeling more complete, but this still feels like a release of the pressure cooker. It feels really good to have spoken some of this out loud. And I'm really hopeful that it does

turn into some really beautiful conversations. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but whenever it comes up is exactly perfect. Okay, before you go, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. If you were thinking of anyone while listening, please send it their way. And if anything resonated with you or you love these conversations, please subscribe and leave a review. This really helps the podcast algorithms put my show in front of more people just like you. And the last thing, I would love nothing more than hearing from you. So say hi, DM me on Instagram and give me a follow at NicolePasvir.

Until next time.