REWILD + FREE - How Society is Failing Us in New Motherhood, with Nikki Matthews

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

You aren't failing mama, but society might be failing you. In this episode, I'm joined by Nikki Matthews who shares her experience preparing for pregnancy/birth and navigating postnatal depression and anxiety after becoming a mom. She discusses the societal taboo surrounding maternal mental health and the struggle to seek support.  This is part 3 of a 3 part series on Matrescence (tune into episodes 12 and 13 to hear other matrescence stories) In this episode, Nikki and I also discuss: The differences in healthcare, parental leave, and childcare in the UK, Canada, and the US How society is failing in preparing mothers for the emotional changes and identity shift that come with motherhoodThe importance of exploring personal values and why self-discovery should be prioritized instead of fitting into traditional metricsThe pressure to bounce back and return to pre-baby life and how this adds to the struggle of understanding one's new identity as a motherNavigating feelings of isolation and inadequacy in new motherhoodNikki shares the importance of understanding matrescence and normalizes some of the hardships so many of us face in early motherhood.  Tune in and join the conversation as we dissect the need for societal change to better support mothers.A note from Nikki: "I'm a Brit, currently living in the USA away from friends and family. I'm married to my wonderful husband James, I have a rambunctious 2 year old little boy, and I also have a non-stop 4 year old pup called Dora. Our house is loud, high energy and messy (just to keep things in perspective!) I used to work in the corporate HR space for 14+ years, but recently took a career break to spend time with my son & explore some of my creative passions... Which brings me on to the.maternally .... an idea that I had when in the throes of postnatal depression and anxiety, and realised so much more needed to be done to support mums as they transition into and throughout motherhood. When I first stepped into the role of mum, I really needed an ally in my corner ... hence the.maternally was born!  I'm a motherhood ally, a matrescence educator, a fierce supporter of maternal mental health, a recovering people pleaser and perfectionist and a HUGE croissant lover! I'm just getting the.maternally off the ground and very much learning as I go, but I'd love for you to join my community!"Connect with Nikki on IG (@the.maternally)Connect with Nicole (@nicolepasveer) Apply to be a guest on the show hereSupport the showConnect with Nicole on IG (@nicolepasveer) Want to be a guest on the podcast? Fill out this form

I was so focused on doing all the things that society expects you to do of like preparing for birth, preparing for, you know, baby to arrive and getting the nursery ready and thinking about all the things that baby might need. I hadn't it hadn't even factored into my mind that I needed to think through the change that I would go through as a person becoming mum and I was so focused on the physical aspects of birth, labour etc. I just didn't even think about the impact that it would have on my sense of self, my identity, how I felt like as from a mental well-being perspective. Welcome to the Not Just a Mom show where we have open and honest conversations about the vulnerabilities and the victories within entrepreneurship and new motherhood. If we haven't met yet I'm Nicole Pazier and I'm going to be your host. Here on the show, we don't subscribe to perfection. In fact, being present is the new perfect and showing up messy is the new norm. My hope is that this podcast serves as a

safe space for me and inspiration for you to stop living life watered down. Together, we will uncover versions of our most potent selves where we show up unapologetically, intentionally, and without filter. We are worthy, just as we are, as all that we are, not just the label we put on ourselves. We are more bit of a crazy week in my world. If you follow me on Instagram, you know that my daughter has been sick. It has not been fun. I'm also in the middle of launching Recalibrate. So if you're listening to this at the time that the episode airs, today is actually the last day for enrollment. So if you've been curious or maybe you're hearing about it for the first time, it's not too late to sign

up. All the details can be found in the show notes. We also celebrated Father's Day over the weekend and I had my 29th birthday. So that's exciting um I hear that the 29th year has something to do with Saturn returning and I have no idea what any of that means but I've slowly been learning more about astrology as I've been dipping my toes into that kind of stuff and human design and things like that so I'm excited to gain some more understanding in terms of what that actually means and what this year ahead of me might look like and just kind of making sense of like this crazy life that I'm living because the more I learn and the more I connect kind of my existence to nature things keep making more and more sense for me and I feel like it's giving me more clarity in terms of

how I want my life to unfold and also having trust in the unfolding of my life and almost giving me permission to feel like I need as much control because I just have this trust that I'm on the right path. Anyways, enough about me. I want to get right into this episode. This is actually part three of a bit of an unintentional series on matrescence. If you're new here and wondering what the hell matrescence is, to put it most simply, it's a term used to describe the process of becoming and being a mother. And it basically encompasses all of the changes that happen physically, emotionally, psychologically within your identity shift of becoming a mother and for many, myself included, learning about

matrescence has really been like a breath of fresh air in terms of my own motherhood journey and feeling alone and overwhelmed and not recognizing myself. Understanding matrescence has really helped to normalize the things I've been going through. Don't mind the dog drinking water in the background. I'm at my kitchen counter recording this because I'm too lazy to go upstairs to my office. But anyways, if you haven't listened to the previous two episodes, make sure to tune in to episode 12 and 13. In this episode, I'm joined by Nikki Matthews. Nikki is a fellow student in the Seasons of Matrescence training program that I'm currently in. She's also a mom to a rambunctious two-year-old son and used to be in the corporate HR space for 14 years

but has since left her career in order to pursue motherhood and her creative passions including starting up and founding The Maternally which you can find on Instagram at the dot maternally. Nikki shares her story with us and we have a beautifully nuanced conversation about maternal mental health, about societal norms and constructs, generational change, and just like the lack of space that society is giving us to evolve and grow as mothers and kind of the pressures that we experience in terms of getting back to our old self. So yeah, Nikki is a motherhood ally, a matrescence educator, and a fierce supporter of maternal mental health. She's also a recovering people pleaser and recovering perfectionist just like me. She's also a lover of croissants. I mean, who isn't? And speaking of croissants, I just had

the best ham and cheese croissant from the French bakery in my neighborhood, where I also get my favorite lavender linen fogs. Not sure why I'm sharing that with you right now. Sorry if I'm making you drool, but maybe this is your sign to go pour yourself a cup of tea and get ready to listen to this episode. But before you do, I invite you to pause whatever it is you're doing right now and just soften your brow relax your jaw and drop your shoulders and then take the most loving breath you've given yourself yet today okay and here we go this is Nikki Matthews I think or I at least hope that other moms will kind of um understand the journey that I've been on, or perhaps relate to it. I, as you can tell from accent, I'm British, but I'm actually living in

the States, away from kind of friends and family. So it's just my husband, myself, our little, almost two year old, little boy and our dog um and we've been together myself and my husband we've been together uh five years we've been married for three years and we have a really um I guess a fun or unique story uh from Covid so um given the fact that I am British, I am on an American visa. And so during COVID, I had to fly back to the UK to renew my visa and get it extended. Long story short, when I was in the UK to get my visa extended, the US decided to shut its borders and I couldn't get back. And I ended up being stuck in the UK for four months whilst my husband was in the US um and at this point we weren't married we were engaged but we weren't married um

and I think that made us realize that screw the fancy big ceremony we wanted initially to celebrate with everybody we just wanted to be together and kind of celebrate our love and so um ironically I landed back in the US on Independence Day which we think is hilarious um being that I'm British and um basically put things into motion and we got married within six weeks of me being back in the US. So fun story. I feel everyone has their stories from COVID for sure. But I think the kind of soon after that, we basically fell pregnant. I think that episode had basically brought into priority kind of what was most important to us and kind of starting a family was most important. So we fell pregnant pretty quickly after our legal wedding ceremony. And honestly, the whole pregnancy is a bit of a blur um and I think some of that is related to me being away from kind of friends and family and nobody really seeing me be pregnant um

almost made it feel like it wasn't real uh And it was kind of, you know, things were just happening and things were moving along. And I think I was in almost like a bit of a bubble of disbelief that I was actually going to become a mum. I was so focused on doing all the things that society expects you to do of like preparing for birth preparing for you know baby to arrive and getting the nursery ready and thinking about all the things that baby might need I hadn't it hadn't even factored into my mind that I needed to think through the change that I would go through as a person becoming mum and I was so focused on the physical aspects um of birth labor etc I just didn't even think about the impact that it would have on my sense of self my identity um

how I felt like as from a mental well-being perspective um and so I guess um in around that way that was like looking back on the journey that was probably a bit of a red flag at that time um and but you kind of you know you just ignore it you kind of go full pelt just focus on baby um and our little boy was born in june and unfortunately at that time the travel ban um between the uk and the us was still in place and so our original plan of having kind of my mom there for birth um it didn't necessarily materialize and i think that that hit me harder than i ever thought possible because i thought it was just a given that my mom would be kind of there when we brought baby home etc um and so um little boy was born in June and I think I think every new parent has that moment when you bring baby when you're finally released from hospital when you bring baby home um you have a moment of like oh excuse the French like what

what am I meant to do like what have I just done how am I meant to keep this thing alive I have no idea what I'm doing everything I've read everything I've listened to has not prepared me for this moment there's just like an overwhelming sense of responsibility that just rains down upon you and I think reality that's it um and so I remember that overwhelming feeling on kind of like day one or day two and I think I think it must have been um the first night at home very little sleep was had um I remember kind of I say waking up in the morning I'm not sure I I slept at all but I remember kind of getting up in the morning looking at my husband and thinking and I said out loud what the hell have we just done um like is this what are we doing um and

you know I think also at that point in time the milk had come in my hormones were all over the place there was a lot going on etc and I think in the moment in time you don't necessarily um you don't process it until you're kind of past that moment and you look back on it uh but i think again that was another almost like warning sign or a red flag for me that there was potentially something um kind of going on deeper beneath the surface where i needed a little bit of extra help or support um and so um we also had some issues. So our little boy was born with a tongue tie, pretty common these days. But unfortunately, that impacted our breastfeeding journey for one reason or another.

And we or I decided to go down the route of exclusively pumping, which hats off to anybody that exclusively pumps. It's, I mean, however you feed your child, it's hard work with kind of new baby, but I think exclusively pumping, there's like an emotional pull, there's a lot of work involved, timing, et cetera. So I exclusively pumped our little boy for about six months um and then started weaning before I went back to work um and I think again red flag there for me I didn't necessarily process all of the emotions

about how I felt our breastfeeding journey didn't necessarily work out um and I think you're just caught up in the moment of you you do what's best for baby you kind of run along with it and you don't necessarily kind of sit down and think about how you're feeling or ask your feeling um but again I think that was another red flag um that kind of contributed um to my own mental kind of health and my mental well-being as well on my journey um to becoming mum um and so uh I went back to work uh roughly the six month um postpartum mark which I think to those who are listening from outside of the US are probably going to think that's crazy because I know other countries get a lot longer on maternity leave. And that's a whole different conversation. I think you could have a whole podcast episode just to talk about the social infrastructure and lack of support.

But I went back to work at six months and I wasn't ready. I knew I wasn't ready going back to work at that point um and that was really the mark when my postnatal depression and anxiety really um made itself known and I think it was really around that mark that I admitted out loud for the first time that I think I needed to speak to somebody and kind of I needed help because I was having thoughts and feelings that weren't necessarily they were more than just the baby blues um and I think the I was very fortunate enough to have um a good support circle around me both from my own OBGYN um our little boy's pediatrician my husband his family etc um that it was kind of picked up you know there was kind of help there ready to go um but that doesn't remove the fact that

maternal mental health is still such a taboo topic um in this day and age and it's almost a a failure if you or it's seen as a failure if you have suffered from postnatal depression anxiety um and i think there are so many societal expectations um born down upon kind of new mums mums to-to-be, um, or even mums that are like years in on their journey, that this is such an area that I am super passionate about. And there is so much more that we need to, and should be doing for mums, um, as they transition into motherhood, but also as they transition into motherhood but also as they continue to transition throughout motherhood because um you know the the whole concept of matrescence is an ongoing cycle it doesn't just stop after that six week mark yeah wow so many parts of your story. Like there's, there's common threads to so many parts that I can resonate with, even though we've definitely walked different paths. I want to go back to when

you were saying when you were pregnant, you almost don't remember aspects of it and much like you I was pregnant in the middle of COVID and even though I was in my home city with like all of my friends and family the fact is is it was COVID and we weren't participating in the usual gatherings and stuff and so a lot of the people that I was closest with didn't see me pregnant either. And if they did, it wasn't often. It was kind of like way later on, it's like, oh, whoa, Nicole, like you are super pregnant now. Like when's baby coming? They didn't like see the transition. And that definitely had an impact on my identity and how I viewed myself. And so I imagine you had that same experience too. Like if nobody's even recognizing this physical transition you're going through, how are you supposed to recognize it within yourself? And then the other aspect of that is you talked about how postpartum and preparing for baby and all those things, like you had prepared physically, you prepared for the things that were going to physically

change and evolve. And obviously the presence of baby and the changes that come with that, but you didn't really prepare for like the emotional changes and the identity shift and all of those things. And I completely agree with that because I didn't either. And I don't think it was from a lack of apathy. It wasn't me thinking, oh, I'm not going to do that because I don't need to, or that's not going to happen to me. It was because it was never presented to me. Like society doesn't give us any space to actually prepare and work through the changes that are about to come.

Like that conversation doesn't exist. Because if it did, I would have been a part of it. Like I was so hungry to learn and absorb all the things I could to prepare for motherhood. But that part is missed. Like all that's talked about is, okay, well, this is how you want to prepare your home. This is how you want to make sure like the nursery is safe for baby. This is what you need to do to maybe have like an impact on your own

physical healing, right? Your postpartum. And maybe there's talk about like nutrition and mineral repletion and what to do if you're breastfeeding. But yeah, there's no talk about the psychological standpoint of things. And if there is, it's always on this very wide and extreme spectrum of postnatal depression and anxiety on one side or the other side being like motherhood comes naturally to you and it's just blissful. And yeah, there's just no reverence for the nuance in between. And that conversation never existed in any of the things I was preparing for. So all this to say is that I completely relate to you when you were speaking about only being prepared for the physical aspect of it. And the other part I was hearing from you

that is parallel to my own experience is almost being in this state of survival and almost like just doing actions out of a necessity to obviously take care of yourself and take care of your baby. But it almost becomes like the bare minimum for survival. And like you pointed out, when you had to make the decision to, okay, breastfeeding isn't working the way we wanted to. So here are my options. And you chose to go the exclusive pumping route. That is a really hard decision. And I imagine that once you made that decision, it was kind of like, okay, well, this is what I've chosen. Now I'm going to have to deal with any consequences that come with it. And when it becomes hard, it probably feels like, well, I can't complain because I chose to do this. Yes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've had very similar experiences where like,

because I've chosen to do things a certain way, again, there's just not the space to have the nuanced conversation about it and actually seek help and support and be recognized for all the things that happen within that one thing. Everything just becomes so black and white and things are either right or wrong. And it puts women, mothers into these blocks, boxes that we end up clenching so tightly on just to feel a sense of belonging and a sense of adequacy. And we're all just feeling so alone and lacking confidence in this thing called motherhood because we're not prepared for it and there's no oh what's the right word there's just like not enough attention on the support of the mother's whole being right and what you kind of pointed this out already where in your own preparation it was all just physical. It wasn't about emotional stuff. It wasn't about psychological stuff. It wasn't about your own state of being. It wasn't about any of that. And obviously, that's going to have an impact on our mental health and our confidence level and our nervous system and our energy and all the things that trickle out from that and I feel like I'm about to go on a tangent so I'm going to stop

myself now and bring it back to your story um but yeah I just wanted to kind of just point out that yeah like I have a similar story in the state in the sense of only feeling prepared for like the physical changes and then almost finding myself in this state of survival where again hindsight's 2020 right like in the moment I didn't necessarily see it that way I thought we were just getting through each day and I knew motherhood was hard so I just kind of told myself okay well yeah this is hard like this is harder than I thought, but I'm surviving. I made it through another day. And yeah, like it can be more than that.

It can be all the emotions that come with it. And yeah, anyway, so let's get back to your story. So you were six months postpartum. Now you are back to work. You have finally realized that maybe some things aren't going as well as you thought and you want some outside support when you finally reached out and asked for support did you feel supported like what happened from there yeah so I think the hardest step was actually admitting that I needed help.

From there, things kind of, I guess, snowballed or fell into place. I wouldn't say seamlessly, but I think once you kind of raise your hand and say, I need to talk to somebody or I don't know where to go, but I know that I need some help. I was fortunate enough to have kind of several options provided to me around whether that was therapy or whether it was, you know, a psychiatrist that I spoke to, to explore medication, or whether it was support groups online or in person, etc. I will say one of the hardest things, and I think that this this is this potentially goes back to my comment around culture social infrastructure etc it's a lot of admin to go through um when you kind of need help or ask for help um especially within the medical field in the US uh and if you're already strong struggling from like a mental well-being perspective and admin is the last thing um that you're necessarily like thinking clearly about and so I again there's just more that we

could be doing as a society to support not just women or mums but anybody that is going through kind of mental health struggles to kind of make that accessibility to help easier um I think for me um I was and I don't know whether this was a societal or a um structural force but I was kind of dead set against exploring medication from day one I very much wanted to and it's not to say that there's anything wrong with that at all, but I very much wanted to kind of go down the therapy route and explore support groups first. I think that was partly because I knew I was missing that community or that sense of connection around me. And I think talking to somebody was probably going to be a huge help my husband was great he definitely listened he definitely was supportive but I think there's

also only so much that you can probably not just share but I think you can truly relate to somebody unless you're kind of going through that cycle yourself um so he was definitely a huge pillar of support but I also kind of explored other um uh kind of connectional community um offers of help so um I'm still I'm happy to say you know still in therapy today I actually think it's probably one of the most beneficial things I have ever done um and I think coming from the UK I won't speak for every Brit but I think coming from the UK it's almost taboo if you are in therapy because again it's almost like you failed or something has gone wrong if you are seeking therapy whereas I do feel um in the states it's it's much more open and it's much more supported for you to seek therapy um so one of the most beneficial things I've ever done is to seek

therapists I honestly count kind of my therapist as part of my network and my village these days because sometimes she is you know she keeps me on the straight and narrow she keeps me sane um she asked me tough questions that potentially I wouldn't kind of get asked elsewhere etc and it just gives me a safe a safe space to kind of dump my brain um so So I sort therapy and then I also decided to, so six months after starting therapy, I also decided to go down the route of starting antidepressants too. Personal reasons, but I think there was just a, where I was was there was only so much that I think therapy was going to achieve um and there was a lot going on in my personal life etc um so also decided to go down the route of um starting antidepressants but I also decided to um just do a lot more research. I think I realized going through the postpartum journey and kind of becoming mom and realizing how little support and potentially how little knowledge was out there around the transition to motherhood.

I threw myself into the deep end of basically soaking up anything and everything to do with motherhood so I came across the term matrescence um and devoured absolutely everything that came up um that I could find related to matrescence because it almost as soon as I discovered it it was like a an aha moment I was like oh my gosh this is the word this this explains exactly what I've been experiencing um and so I threw myself in I devoured TED talks I devoured articles um I obviously signed up to the seasons of matrescence certification which is where you and I met um and really from there decided that more needed to be done in the space of not just postpartum care but and the transition throughout motherhood really entails um more than just the physical um options but really you know preparing women for

any identity shifts that they may feel, the push and pull of balancing everything, the push and pull of kind of meeting societal expectations, the duality of motherhood. So, you know, being able to feel multiple things at once and not necessarily, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are a bad parent for feeling all of those things you know you can feel that you're having a really frustrating day and um the baby is really annoying because the baby you know can't latch properly or doesn't stop crying you can also love them so deeply that hurts and that doesn't mean that you're a bad parent and again

it goes back to kind of what you were sharing earlier it's everything is so entwined into our culture and our societal expectations um the if we think about the the generation that we were brought up in it's almost like a the sense of accomplishment or the sense of achievement was all about doing versus being um don't show emotions for fear of being weak um you've got to tick off everything on that to-do list in order to you know show that you're worthy you've got to go after that big career that fancy job title the big house the car etc and I think that goes at odds when you become a mum because your day never goes well my day never go my day never went to plan um and you don't necessarily have a to-do list that you can ever get through um and I think the whole concept of success is

thrown out of the window um in motherhood but again none of that is ever mentioned in the baby books that you pick up or the articles that you read the podcasts that you listen to um it's basically all about baby and the mom's physical recovery um and I just think I just wish that and I definitely feel um we're on the verge of kind of a movement at the moment I do feel I think code's played a part in that I do feel that there is more of a push for counterculture so more of a push for um mums to embrace who they really are to embrace the slowness and to do things how they want to do it and to challenge society um against what success may look like to them, et cetera. But I also think that we have a long, long, long way to go

to provide the support or the level of support that really should exist for mums. And so that's kind of roundabout way of kind of sharing how I came up with the maternally or kind of where the idea of the maternally was born. It was, in essence, kind of going through my motherhood journey and really getting to a point where I was like, I just wish I had somebody in my corner. I just wish I had an ally that I could turn to and ask questions to. And that's not to say, you know, friends and family weren't there at all. They were. But I think it's very different when there's only so much prep you can go through.

You can have a conversation with your best friend who may already be a mum. But I think until you've gone through it and experienced it yourself only then do you truly understand um but that's essentially where the maternity came from is I just wish I had had an ally in my corner and that made me think I wonder how many other mums-to-be or mums out there who were surviving, just surviving, to kind of get through their day, you know, to get through to nap time, to get through to bedtime, and potentially feeling like they were failing, and how much more we could do to support them. And so that's where the idea came from. I would say I'm very early on in kind of getting this set up and at the moment I'm very much focused on I guess soaking up all the

information and being um being the recipient at the moment so just focusing on kind of receiving this information and taking myself through this journey and reflecting on my own journey before I take, you know, the gifts and kind of share those gifts with others. But very excited to kind of get out there, but also really sad about the status of this space and just how unsupported moms are and how undervalued moms are and how undervalued unpaid kind of care work is in our society today yeah I don't know about you but it's one of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it and so now that we've been through it and now that we are it's not that we're looking for it but like because it's kind of on our radar yeah you can't unsee it and it's just so blatantly obvious that it just fuels that fiery passion to see change in this world even more um so i'm really excited for the work you're doing i'm really excited for the work i'm doing obviously

um i'm really excited that our cross our paths have crossed and yes that we have been able to connect because I think the more that women are kind of waking up to the dysfunction of society and culture and the way motherhood is held and recognized, that is when we're going to start seeing change. And I always say this, that I feel like motherhood is an opportunity for generational change. And it's an opportunity to do something different so that the next generation can hopefully experience things differently than we are. And that's probably one of my biggest hopes and goals through all of this is that things are different by the time my daughter is experiencing her maiden to mother journey and her matrescence journey and and the first time

she's pregnant and navigating birth preparation and experiencing postpartum and breastfeeding like I just truly hope that things are different and um yeah, I think it all starts with people like you and I having conversations like this. Like you pointed out, this stuff isn't talked about in any of books or any of the usual podcasts. And when you said that, it gave me chills because I'm like, well, except this podcast, we're having the talk. And could you imagine if you and I had heard a conversation like this during pregnancy or in the early postpartum stages, how much impact it would have had in the sense of just normalizing what we are experiencing? Like, I can't imagine because I didn't have that, right? Like I was in survival mode and I was just taking it one nap at a time. And like you pointed out, like hearing and

understanding the term matrescence, it was kind of like, oh my goodness, this explains it all. And I think all of us have kind of had that experience when we've finally started to dive deeper into just what matrescence is and all that it encompasses. And it's been a, just like this massive wave of, okay, like I'm not failing. I'm not doing something wrong. This is normal. It's just, there's that cycle of silence, right? And nobody's talking about these things because we feel like we're failing or we feel like we're doing something wrong, or we feel like we must be the only one experiencing that thing. And that is so far from the truth, as I hope I've proven from my podcast already and the multiple conversations I've had with people like yourself, like we're all experiencing our own version of the dysfunction

of this culture. And anyway, so I've really appreciated hearing your story because it just, well, it kind of compounds the issues that we're seeing, but it also sheds light on like this doesn't have to be this way. There's alternative ways to kind of move through and navigate our cultureless culture, for lack of a better word um i'm curious since you are from the uk you already kind of pointed out the difference that you've noticed between how taboo therapy is and i appreciated that comment because i think i think we are making progress in north america in the sense that tab or that that therapy isn't as taboo and instead it can be actually seen as this like preventative measure and um like you pointed out your therapist is part of your village now like that would be amazing like can everyone have a therapist and like form that as part of your village along with like a chiropractor and a

pelvic floor therapist and a birth doula like like, let's just make that normal. Obviously, there's tons of barriers involved and why that's not happening right now. But again, I'm going to dream. But I would love to hear some more of, I guess, like the contrasts that you've seen or experienced in the North American culture versus maybe how you were how you were um grown up how you grew up in the UK and just like what culture of motherhood and pregnancy and birth look like over there compared to here if there is contrasts I think um there's probably a couple of big ones that I would definitely highlight. And then, they're not going to be surprises, one would be healthcare. So, obviously, in the UK, the healthcare model, it's a publicly funded organisation, and so it's free. Obviously, what you get from that is the NHS is a fantastic resource. I'm not knocking the NHS at all. But it doesn't provide potentially the quality of care that I saw and had when giving birth in the

US. But obviously, the downside of that is there is a significant bill to pay, whether you pay it through insurance payments, or whether you pay out of pocket, whatever that is, there is a significant bill to pay, whether you pay it through insurance payments or whether you pay out of pocket, whatever that is, there is a significant bill that you pay. So I think the differences in healthcare are huge. And I think a couple of real examples that I would share is the number of appointments that I had during pregnancy was significantly more than friends who were pregnant at similar times over in the UK and how often they got to see a midwife or a doctor, how many scans they had. And potentially they would only have more appointments if there was potentially a bit of a question mark on weight of baby or something had come back a little bit um that needed more investigation so health care is

one um the second big difference um i touched this before but it would be the parental leave um the maternity leave support um that exists i think in pretty much every other country other than the us um if i'm honest and so I know that I'm speaking from a privileged place when I said that I had six months off because I know that that is not what many people across the US get um and I know you know that I think the basic is like six weeks which boggles my mind how how that is even legal in this day and age um when you think back to kind of your own physical recovery from birth i i'd only just i think gotten myself back together you know walking normally and managing to like function as a human being by about week six week seven um the uk uh is it provides kind of 12 months statutory

maternity leave there's obviously payments are different but there's obviously different um company levels but i think what the difference in parental leave provides is a a longer time to bond with baby um you're not necessarily up against a pressure to wean or especially if you're breastfeeding um or to figure out how you're going to kind of feed baby or look after baby etc when you're going back to work um and i also think just not just the physical recovery for mums, but just generally the transition that you go through that first year of baby's life is so challenging. And you go through so many emotions, hormonal changes, your body changes, you're figuring out who you are as a person, where you fit in now baby is around um and i just think not having to focus on or think about

work for 12 months is a huge benefit i think um the other thing i'd probably flag and this is obviously um we're two years in um back of work and so child care is another factor that i would say is very different between the locations um i don't think the uk or the us have got it perfectly figured out there's pros and cons to both but i do think that there is a lot more financial support in the uk for child care um for those that need it again not a not a perfect model. It doesn't cover every single circumstance, but there are at least government funded childcare hours or places. Whereas in the US, it's a figure it out yourself and good luck, basically. I would say those are probably the three main differences that I've definitely seen and experienced um I'm sure there's a huge amount more um the one thing I'll say that is definitely the same is that infamous six-week postpartum

check um I think having spoken to friends to give birth in the UK comparing it to my experience in the US I don't think there's any major difference it's just focused on the physical recovery you know good to go off you go we'll see you at your annual yearly checkup I don't think that differs I think there is so much more that could and should be done at that six-week appointment mark a lot more time spent on actually digging into how mom is doing and not necessarily just asking mom are you depressed do you feel depressed because I don't think any mom would probably answer with yes even if they were I think you need to really spend some time digging into you know when do you feel when do you feel overwhelmed um how much sleep are you getting how are you looking after yourself?

You know, how are you taking some time out for yourself and really just making that six week mark so much more than just a physical checkup? Well, again, because when it is just that physical checkup, it's compounding to the problem we've already made clear about in this conversation. And that's that we are only preparing ourselves for the physical changes. And then when we show up to that six week appointment, and that's the only thing that's being assessed for lack of a better word, then again, it just makes us shy away from any of the other changes we're experiencing, because that must mean something's wrong with us. nobody asked if nobody is checking in on that part of us then that must be something we're not supposed to be concerned about right if basically we're told the only thing to be concerned about is like

our post-pregnancy wait and if we're ready to have sex again like it's so messed up. So, so messed up. And then I didn't realize that the UK, it sounds like is very, I'm in Canada. So it sounds like things are pretty similar here as they are to the UK. And I think for those of us that don't live in or aren't from the US, we kind of just think, oh, the US has this like crazy healthcare system. And like, you hear all the horror stories and you think it's just so like corrupt or whatever word you want to call it. And the truth of the matter is, is like, even for those of us with public healthcare and with quote unquote accessible providers, it's far from perfect. Because here in Canada, there's crazy long wait lists.

There's, like you had pointed out in the UK, your friends that were pregnant at the same time as you were having less prenatal appointments like there's so many little things that I don't think we can recognize as being an issue until you see how other just like other health care systems are doing and I don't think anyone's doing it perfectly from what I can see one of my close friends lives in Austria and she has had both her babies there. And it seems to be a completely different health care model there and a huge emphasis on. I just feel like there's more respect for the mother baby dyad in the sense that there was more support and encouragement for breastfeeding. There was more support and encouragement for bed sharing and just really keeping the two parties intact as opposed to, I think in North America, there's so much pressure on that separation. And you already pointed out the dysfunction of maternity leave and how in the States it's barely six months. Here in Canada, we do get 12 to 18 months, which, excuse me, again, I recognize that privilege for myself. I think about it all the time. And I mean,

I didn't end up going back to work, but had I gone back at 18 months, or actually I was going to be going back at 16 months. So had I gone back at 16 months, that would have required me to start weaning my daughter. And we would have had to be probably making some changes with our sleep and doing things that honestly would have been outside of what my intuition and my mama instincts wanted to do. And I'm forever grateful that that's not my story. I'm forever grateful that I didn't have to go back to work because it's allowed my, it's allowed our story to unfold without the outside pressures. If that makes sense, right? Like we are still breastfeeding, we're still co-sleeping. And I don't think any of that would have been possible

had I had to go back at six weeks or six months or even a year. And that just breaks my heart that not everyone has that experience and not everyone has that story. But it just goes to show you how culturally we are literally teaching moms and parents how not to trust their instincts. And instead, there's just all this pressure to get back to like that previous identity and that previous version of self. 100%. I would love to quickly touch on, because we've both kind of talked about the identity shifts that come with motherhood. I would love to just kind of discuss how that's looked for you in the context of already being in a new environment. Because for me, a lot of the resistance I've met and the struggles that I've experienced and the identity shifts that I'm having have more to do with feeling like I still need to be a certain way for the people that knew me before I was a mom. And I've often thought to myself, well, if I just went and lived somewhere new where like nobody knows me or like I have to make this new community, it would be easier. So I would kind of love to hear what your perspective on that is and how the identity

shifts have unfolded for you being that you're not in home, right? You're not in your usual environment where your friends and family that you've grown up with are next door. Yeah. In all honesty, I was not prepared for the identity shift that I went through becoming a mom. So for a little bit of context, before becoming mum, my career was a huge part of who I was. It was kind of a large priority in my life. I worked incredibly hard. I was in the corporate world. You know, I had quite a senior position. And that was kind of my focus. Obviously, after becoming mum and going through a lot of therapy and kind of talking about this I know that I am more than just my role title um but I think this also goes back

to kind of how we the generation that we were brought up in and kind of the sign of success was around productivity and how hard we were working um etc. And so when I became mum, I really struggled and still to this day struggle, I think sometimes, in terms of being able to tick off that do list and kind of getting everything done that I need to do in a day. But I also think I really struggled with understanding who I was now my focus was no longer my career and my focus was my baby um what did I stand for what were my values like that it wasn't that it didn't necessarily bring me joy but it was such a sharp contrast to the life I'd had before baby that I wasn't even prepared. I'd done no kind of prep work, no planning or thinking through kind of how I may be impacted and kind of what emotional turmoil I may be going through. And so I went back to work in, it was the January, so six months after our little boy was born, went back to work in the January.

And honestly, I decided to take a leave of absence from the March for about three to four months, just because A, I knew I hadn't been ready to go back to work. B, I needed to really focus on kind of my own mental health without having the distraction of work um and so decided to kind of take that leave of absence um I went back to work in the end um I think it was in July uh but long story short I actually decided to quit um a couple of months later and take a break and I think I'd been on a journey of self-discovery during that leave of absence and I wouldn't say I've necessarily got it mapped out right now I think what I spent some time doing and really thinking through was what did bring me joy it wasn't just you know the title or kind of the necessarily the things that I was doing but

what was it from my career that brought me joy um was it the sense of achievement was it um recognition that I was getting was it that that sense of community that I had? What was it? And so I've kind of technically been out of the court world for six months and really kind of focused on doing self-discovery, spending time with my son and figuring out kind of who I now am and I think you put it perfectly when you said earlier there is such a push for mums to jump back to immediately who they were or what they were before baby if you think about all of the um media influences around you know, the bounce back culture, getting your body back from baby, fitting into the clothes again. Thinking about pushes from sleep training consultants to make sure that you're getting your beauty sleep at night. Thinking about, you know, your return to work very quickly after having baby and kind of thinking about your weaning journey.

And baby may, in the US specifically, baby may only be a few weeks old at that point. And that pressure to jump back into kind of who or what you were before baby just compounds the whole identity struggle and identity shift that I think mums go through. And why aren't we embracing the new space that we're in? Why aren't we embracing kind of what a new definition of success may mean to us? Why can't we embrace that new purpose that life may have brought us? Changing isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be a beautiful thing,

but we need space to explore that change. And I think that's something that culture doesn't necessarily allow us to do today. I would agree. And I think that's exactly why the work you and I are doing is so important because we are starting to initiate those conversations. And I mean, in so important because we are starting to initiate those conversations. And I mean, in the training that we're both going through right now, that's exactly

some of the things that we're being taught on how to facilitate other women through is how do we actually start redefining success and maybe changing the metrics that we once used to define success, changing them to mean something else and exploring our values and exploring what things actually bring us joy outside of seeing our kids thrive and reach the next milestone or crossing off that to-do list or getting a promotion at work. Like what are the things that actually bring us joy? And I've honestly never actually sat with those type of questions until now. And it makes sense that why my entire journey through postpartum, let's say the first 12 months, like I had such a hard time even understanding who I was. Like even to this day, I still have a hard time saying who I am. And you and I joked off air about how much we hate writing bios of ourselves. And I think that's part of it is because we really are struggling

with this identity piece. And I don't think it's that we're resisting the change it's that we're so deep into the evolution right now and because we are going through this journey of self-discovery and just understanding new parts of ourselves it's literally like we're we're dating ourselves for the first time and like I barely know myself anymore the things that I thought made me me I'm now recognizing in older versions of myself and in pre-motherhood versions of myself, it was more so so that I could fit in with whatever group I was trying to belong in. And I'm grateful now that I have that awareness to know that I was doing that. Of course, in the moment, I didn't think I was. I thought that is just who I was. I thought I was whatever the label was. And now that I don't really have those labels to cling on to, and I don't necessarily have the vocabulary to articulate

who it is I am, it feels like I'm literally like walking on nothing. Like there's no stability belief beneath me. And the coolest part about that is it's taught me that I don't need something under me to hold me up. I can hold myself up by just being me and by leaning on myself and by continuing to pour into my own cup. And for me, that's why I've become so passionate about actually deep soul nourishing self-care and really valuing your own self-worth and being unapologetic about your needs and your desires is because I've had to figure that stuff out on my own. Because without it, it literally felt like the ground beneath me was crumbling. It literally felt like everything I knew was just shattering under each step I was taking and the uncomfortableness

of the uncertainty and the lack of recognition and support was almost unbearable. And I think when we look at it like that, it's almost no wonder moms are experiencing higher levels of postnatal depression and anxiety than we've ever seen before. How could they not, right? When we look at the external environment that we are entering motherhood in in like we keep saying it's so dysfunctional and I like I said like once you see it you can't unsee it but it's hard not to feel rage about it too right like I don't know I think society it's so frustrating I think society definitely has a lot to answer for I think COVID has a lot to answer for as well because I think society it's so frustrating I think society definitely has a lot to answer for I think Covid has a lot to answer for as well because I think um the lack of communities and

that lack of connection and the lack of villages really accelerated through Covid um and I think that whole um sense of being able to just be and not have to do I think is so important and that's such an incredibly different mindset to how we've potentially been brought up and kind of the messages we get from society it's all about go go go it's all about do do do and actually and achieving the next best thing exactly and how can we flip the switch into just being yeah I would agree with that and I mean that's that's true in my own story like my basically my entire life um yeah I lived with that mindset of, I just need to keep do, do, do. I just need to go, go, go. I need to just scratch the next thing off my to-do list. And one positive thing from COVID for me, and I think other people have to some of the disconnect.

And with that, it's giving us the opportunity to do something different. And instead of just continuously running on autopilot and kind of doing things by default in the way they've always been done, I think more and more of us are kind of waking up and saying, actually, like, I think I want to do it differently. Like, I don't think that makes sense. Even though like you did it this way, or my mom did it this way, or my aunt did it this way, like, I'm actually going to do it this way. And I think we're slowly getting a little bit more comfortable with, like you said, doing things countercultural. So I think that that's a start.

Like, I think we've shifted the trajectory, but we still have a long ways to go. Yes, for sure. But I think it's, you mentioned this before with the cycle of silence. I think the more people that speak up, the less taboo this will come and the more change will happen. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And as I've experienced and just the power of storytelling and how when more of us speak out about our stories and our

experiences, that is what breaks that cycle of silence, right? It is what starts normalizing the experiences so that we aren't feeling as alone and we aren't feeling like something's wrong with us because it's like, oh, well, she experienced that too. And like, she's okay. Absolutely. I love it if instead of us ending up questioning ourselves, like, does this mean that I failed? Does this mean that I'm missing something? We actually start to question the society and the social infrastructure that surrounds us. I would love to see matricence as a topic or as a concept

really start to appear in prenatal or antenatal education um just to get get it out there so people are aware um so we start to consider more than just the physical changes that will happen yeah i totally agree and not only that like how cool would it be for matricence to start being part of like health class in high school or like biology when people are studying just like human development, right? Like if we're relating it to adolescence, then it needs to start being appreciated the same way adolescence is. Something I'd say to kind of end on is I also think we need to be okay with giving ourselves

grace as well. Motherhood is exhausting. And then when you factor in all of these challenges that we're going through, such as advocating for ourselves, pushing back against culture, trying to carve our own ways into doing things. And that may be different to how I've seen it done. That's a whole different level of exhaustion right there. And I think we need to be comfortable in taking rest when we need rest, like rest isn't a sign of failure and giving ourselves grace as well. Yeah, I love that. And not just grace, but also a heavy dose of self-compassion and just shifting the mindset around, like you say,

rest isn't a sign of being weak, but rest also isn't something that you have to work super hard to get. Rest shouldn't be a reward. Rest should just yes a part of your daily routine part of your routine for you right yes whatever that looks like I honestly feel that we could like strike up a conversation with a cup of tea and sit here for hours talking about this stuff so I have my cup of tea but yeah I love it that and that's been really like the premise of my podcast is like, I never want it to be super interviewee. Like, I hope you never felt like I was interviewing you. I'm very intentional about my questions or lack of questions even because I'd rather you just I think storytelling on the receiving end is just so impactful in the

sense that it normalizes what people are going through. Okay, before you go, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. If you were thinking of anyone while listening, please send it their way. And if anything resonated with you or you love these conversations please subscribe and leave a review this really helps the podcast algorithms put my show in front of more people just like you and the last thing I would love nothing more than hearing from you so say hi dm me on instagram and give me a follow at NicolePasvir. Until next time.