REWILD + FREE - New Motherhood Real Talk: Postpartum Sex, Marriage, and Sleep with Hilary Blackstone

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

I'm joined by Hilary and we share our unfiltered experience navigating marriage, sex and infant sleep in new motherhood. We discuss discernment between 'desires' versus 'shoulds' in motherhood, the importance of open communication in marriage, and unlearning societal pressures to be the "perfect" mother and wife. At the end, we share contrasting experiences and insights from a sleep training and non-sleep training perspective and find commonality between the anxiety infant sleep has brought us.  Meet Hilary Blackstone:  Hilary has a newfound passion for working with and caring for mothers ever since her daughter was born in December 2022.  Hilary has been working in education as an elementary teacher for the last 10 years and is eager to continue her work in education as well as supporting mothers. She sends out a monthly newsletter detailing her journey through motherhood and plans to host virtual circles in the near future. Check out her writing on Substack by clicking here Connect with Hilary via email ([e-mail]) Connect with Nicole on IG (@nicolepasveer)Want to be a guest on the podcast?  Fill out this formIf this show has inspired, transformed or made your life a tinyyy bit better in anyway and you’ve been searching for a way to say thank you, and support me in producing more episodes, you can now buy me a donut 🍩  (see link below)Support the showConnect with Nicole on IG (@nicolepasveer) Want to be a guest on the podcast? Fill out this form

I think that's been an interesting thing with marriage is this really fine line of not wanting to be a complete control freak and also really feeling like, no, but I know how to do this. I birthed her. I carried her. Like, I just know you're doing it wrong. But when you say that, like that, you know, you're setting yourself up for for some argument and then more resentment because they're not going to want to help anymore. Welcome to the Not Just a Mom Show, where we have open and honest conversations about the vulnerabilities and the victories within entrepreneurship and new motherhood. If we

haven't met yet, I'm Nicole Pazier and I'm going to be your host. Here on the show, we don't subscribe to perfection. In fact, being present is the new perfect and showing up messy is the new norm. We are worthy just as we are, as all that we are, not just the label we put on ourselves. We are more than just a mom and I'm so glad you're here. Welcome back to another episode on the podcast. Today I'm joined by my new friend Hilary. Hilary and I met each other in our Seasons of Matrescence training. It's been really cool because I think it's been a friendship many months in the making. We've just kind of gotten to know each other in little snippets in our twice monthly coaching calls. But yeah, I feel like every time I've heard her speak and I think every time she's heard me speak, we've just felt that little

connection. So it was really cool to hop on Zoom to record this episode because we literally ended up talking for like two hours and I felt like I could have talked to her forever. As always, this conversation is really awesome. We touch on so many topics. To start, we're going to hear Hillary's experience just becoming a mom and how she's navigated her marriage postpartum. I share a little bit about my own experience navigating my own marriage, which is really cool just to reflect on and be able to share with someone out loud. And then we also dive into a little bit about our sex life postpartum and probably answer a burning question that many first-time moms have about postpartum sex and if it's painful or not so we will share our experience on that and then it's funny because we ended the

chat we both felt complete and then we were off air and started talking about sleep um at the time of recording um i'm going to mention this in the show but at the time of recording I had just released a podcast episode on my views on sleep training and I had a conversation with a sleep specialist and so it was kind of cool because that episode was still fresh and Hillary hadn't listened to it yet she actually said she was scared because we have uh I wouldn't say like different views on sleep but we have different experiences on how we've navigated our daughter's sleep and um I've been very bold in my language around sleep training in the sense of saying that I'm anti sleep training and I just don't believe in it and while I can sit here and continue to say that that is my truth I can also

hold space for and recognize the nuance in the conversation and also recognize some of the privilege in my own life for why and how we've been able to avoid sleep training. Um, with that said, it actually is just a really beautiful conversation because Hillary and I both hold space for each other and hear each other's experiences. I also share a little dirty secret of mine that I've never shared online anywhere. Um, so you'll have to listen to the very end to hear that other than that I'm going to stop rambling as um I could go on forever I'm going to hit play and let you listen to our conversation it's a good one I hope you enjoy often the first word I use to identify myself is a teacher um I've been a teacher for 10 years and it's been an interesting just shift already to think like,

do I say I'm a teacher? Do I say I'm a mother? Which one comes first? And I find I'm still really, I look at my daughter often and I'm like, you're mad. Like this is real. Like I have to pinch myself. So teacher and a mother, and I've always been interested in spirituality and mental health and have like often thought about going into counseling um and it did feel like as soon as I became a mother I felt even more like I I want to do something to to support others and it sort of felt like a wake-up call like I need to do something to support others. And it sort of felt like a wake up call, like I need to do something to support mothers. I never knew that this is how it was going to be. So I, yeah, I feel like I'm constantly evolving and often in search of figuring it all out,

like wanting to reach this end point, right? Like I've got this, this and this together, but motherhood definitely opened me up to that's never going to happen, which is good. Yeah. It's super cool just to hear all of that because you and I are both in the same cohort of the Seasons of Matrescence Facilitator Training. So we've been on mutual Zoom calls a couple times a month for what, the past four months now? And it's been cool just learning parts of each other's story in the little chunks of time we have. And there's so many common threads. So it's super cool just because you are a couple months behind me. I shouldn't say a couple. You were a lot of months behind me in your motherhood journey. And I feel like a lot of the interactions I have are with moms that are more seasoned.

I don't want to say experienced because it's not about that. But it's really interesting having conversations with you because you are often asking me questions. It's like, oh, crap. I'm supposed to know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing yeah um so it's kind of cool because before we hit record you were asking me some questions and it's just kind of cool reflecting on like oh wait like experience really does give you street cred and we don't we don't give ourselves enough credit for the experience we hold and I think

I don't know that's kind of been a common theme in some of some of the resistance and reflections that I've kind of been going through in my own personal life and professional life just dealing with like imposter syndrome and feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt. And yeah, it's just kind of cool to remind myself that like the experience I hold and even just like my previous career as a nurse and your previous or current career as a teacher and the transferability that those things hold in like what we're wanting to do, like we forget to just like hold its weight. Yes. Yes. And I, I find like when I think about myself as a teacher, it took me many years before I was like, oh, I actually know what I'm doing a little bit.

And it's similar to what you just said of what, like when I come up and I ask you things, when I've had beginner teachers ask me questions, it feels good. Um, but I, I have found it such an interesting thing and I think you've written about it and talked about it a lot too. How much we lose sight of our innate knowing of how to be a mom, um, in this world where you're infiltrated with information constantly. And as someone who really defines themselves as a people pleaser, and I don't know that I would use the word, I don't think I'm an, I wouldn't describe myself as an insecure person, but I think that people pleasing and self-doubt tend to go really hand in hand. And I, I have had moments where I just like look at Ellie and I, it feels like I do know what to do,

but, but those moments are few and far between, I think when I really pause to listen. And I think that's been an interesting thing with marriage is this really fine line of not wanting to be a complete control freak and also really feeling like, no, but I know how to do this. I birthed her. I carried her. I just know you're doing it wrong. But when you say that, you're setting yourself up for some argument and then more resentment because they're not going to want to help anymore. It's so true. Before we get into marriage, because I definitely want to go there, I just wanted to bring back the distinction you perfectly made around insecurity versus

self-doubt because I think they're super different things. And I totally resonate with not necessarily seeing myself as an insecure person. Looking back, I never thought of myself as insecure. I never really thought of myself as having low self-esteem. But looking back, I can see how clearly I was just always trying to fit in and like gain respect by my peers or my teachers or my employer or whoever it was. And it's just so clear to me now how I was constantly sidelining my own needs to try to gain the respect from someone else. And I mean, that is kind of the definition of people pleasing. And I didn't start identifying as a people pleaser until after my own pregnancy and my own birth. And it was actually like during my postpartum period where it all kind of started to click for me. And I realized that that's kind of what I've been doing my whole life and I think I think the the wildest part about it is it can be so easy for us to think

that it's like a personality trait and that it's just something that we need to like stop doing and the thing is is it's not like it's it's a survival response it's our nervous system actually protecting ourselves and it's from deep deep deep conditioning from like society and culture and it starts right from like yeah and it starts like right from the young age of being young girls and um I don't know about you but like I just hold a lot of weight with that now that I'm raising my own daughter. And it's like, man, like, how do we make sure that she's not growing up with that same conditioning? Right.

Yeah. I just wanted to, I just wanted to spit that in there. I don't know that we need to go in that direction. I just wanted to kind of name it. Yeah. No, I think it's so true. And I, I do, I feel like there's like an extra, there's just extra raising a daughter. There's so many things I feel fearful for her about and

don't want her to experience the way I did. And some of it, you know, you can't, I don't want to protect her too much either. Right. It's such a fine line. It really is. Yeah. Okay. Let's go back in to marriage. Cause yeah, I would love to go in that direction. Cause you and I haven't really chatted about this much. Like, I don't know your experience. You don't know mine. And it hasn't come up in our matrescence called much. No, it hasn't at all, which is interesting because I think, I mean, marriage, like the person that we live with, the person that we created this baby with is literally like our other half. And they totally have an influence on shaping our identity and like helping to either like

build up or not our confidence. And I know in my own experience, like I've felt a deep, deep disconnection with my husband since we've had Aubrey. I mean, we're 22 months out now, we've had loads of conversations about it. But the hardest part is it's been kind of one sided, it's been me feeling the disconnect and him kind of thinking that things are okay. And I've, I've realized now that a lot of it was me not necessarily feeling recognized or seen by him and in turn, not feeling safe in like an emotional safety sense to, I guess, like voice my truth. And for me, motherhood has

been a huge catalyst in my own self-discovery and my own spiritual exploration. And I feel like I've changed so much. And I think there's been a small part of me that has really feared that what if he doesn't love the new version of me? I almost feel like shaky saying that out loud because it's still hard to like muster those words out. But yeah. And then like you pointed out how we have these deep maternal instincts and it can just be so easy to start second guessing ourselves if our spouse is thinking something different and it's extra hard when we know our spouse is just getting information from like mainstream like parenting culture and it's like okay but like my instincts matter and

I could go on and on because this is like a conversation that I could literally shout from the rooftops about how just society is teaching us how not to trust our instincts so to not have our our partner's support and stuff like that just creates a lot of tension and disconnect yeah yeah well I can start at the beginning of my, let's hear it all. So we, we actually met on a dating app called coffee meets bagel. Um, love it. Okay. Yeah. Um, yeah. Have you heard of that? Maybe you didn't have, no, I haven't. I haven't.'t that sounds awesome yeah um and he was the first date I went on from the app and vice versa so we like really got lucky I seriously like met him

and I called my mom and she to this day was like she's she was like I knew you were going to marry him. So it was like an instant connection. I creepily like totally researched him before I met him. And I had seen that he had lived abroad in Rwanda. And I thought it was so cool. And he just seemed like wanting to change the world. And he just like totally aligned values um so I I've never had a relationship with someone like I've never dated someone like Alan my husband he is one of the best listeners I know he I feel so completely loved by him um we never really fought like, you know, bicker here and there.

And I had all these friends say, just wait, just wait till you have a baby, Hillary, like everything's going to change. And I hate that. And, and there is some truth to it. Like there is a huge shift, but I was like, that's not going to happen to us. There's no way. And I did have some anxiety, like leading up to the birth. Like, I think that was the first time I could start to see what you're just describing. Like, are, are we being supported to trust our instincts or not? Like birth? Hello. Like, you know, there's so much medical intervention and that's totally where it starts. Yeah, totally where it starts. So I was so pleased. We, we did this birth class together. Um, it had to still be on zoom because of COVID, but it was great. And then, um, we hired a doula and that was like, I think the first thing doulas

are expensive. How is my husband going to say yes. What does he even think about this? And he, it took a little convincing, I would say, but he was supportive and thank goodness. She was amazing. And Alan was completely supportive of how I wanted to do the birth. I really wanted an unmedicated birth. I now think if we have another kid, I toy a home birth um because I felt like I had no intervention during the process of Ellie being born but then I got pumped with Pitocin so he was so supportive and he was I definitely told my friend right after like I've never I've never loved Alan more like

it was like such an incredible experience to see him through the birth. He jumped right in. The first few, I would say the first two months postpartum, it's kind of a blur. Like, I don't recognize who I was. It was scary. Like, I was in a really scary place. And thank goodness he had paternity leave. Um, he did it all. Like he, he supported me. He supported Ellie, um, breastfeeding. That would

also be a whole other episode was totally traumatic. Like it's one of the reasons that I get scared to have another kid because it was like so traumatic and he was there to support. Anyway, we were like on video calls with lactation consultants, Alan's like up recording Ellie breastfeeding latch and like massaging out lumps and just the ability to become not just this like romantic sexual partner, but to like fully be the partner that I needed and love me unconditionally while blood's dripping down my legs. And like, I still have a felt like I had a big belly and just at my lowest, like rock bottom, never feeling the slightest bit of wavering in his love was, I, you know, I kind of went back to like, what are people talking about? Like our relationship is perfect. And then there was a bit of a shift where he went back to work. I kind of came back into my self more and more. Um, and I started to feel rage. Like I've never felt, um, and it mainly would get directed at him unfairly. And I don't,

yeah, I don't know if you want to jump in with any of your, like the, the mom rage that people talk about, like the postpartum hormone it it came for me and I wasn't expecting it it's tricky like I don't necessarily have a comment on it because I think there's so much nuance to it I think it can be it can be so from so many things right can obviously be from like an imbalance of hormones that could be one thing it can be from sleep deprivation which I mean most moms are dealing with It can also be from like unmet needs. And that can be maybe from your relationship with your husband or other family members. It could also just be like, there's so much nuance to it. But I like that you've brought that up

because I think a lot of people have so much shame and judgment towards that feeling of rage. And I think the actual like suppressing of that emotion is not supportive of it at all because it's just kind of creating that beach ball effect where it just pushes it down and then it's just going to bounce back up with even more force. So I'm curious to hear more in depth what your experience with it was and how it kind of manifested. I would never describe myself as an angry person. So it was kind of like a frightening feeling that was unrecognizable in my body. And I think the scary thing about it was I felt like I had no control over it. It still comes up sometimes. Like I just feel so it feels irrational like irrationally angry um and and I I like can now look back and say I just think my anger comes from realizing how much of a patriarchy we still live in like I was going to bring that up too I'm like for me

I've experienced a lot of like what I kind of identify as collective rage like anytime i'm feeling that like really deep fierce like stir in my body um and like i wouldn't necessarily say it's irrational because i can usually kind of make sense to it when i start zooming out a bit um but yeah like in the context of just like my little life and like my immediate family and my household, yeah, it feels completely irrational. And then as soon as I can kind of look at it from a bird's eye view and I see the pressures and the expectations and the shoulds from our culture, it's like, oh, this makes sense. That's where this is coming from. Yeah. And I think in the beginning, it was like, it was, it was anger towards Alan unfairly because I was jealous, like jealous that he didn't

have to experience some of what I experienced. Also totally like if I was awake in the night and sleep deprived I wanted him to be too so like like I can literally feel like the the like smoke fuming from my head like just visualizing like my husband like soundly sleeping next to me it's like you need to be awake right now because I am awake but then also the guilt of but that's not fair because you have to go to work and then it spirals into well come on Nicole like your time is worthy of whatever too and why are you like putting more value on his out of the homework to your like in home taking care of baby work and then it spirals into while that's like the patriarchy and then it spirals into while that's like the patriarchy and the pressures from society and like that's where my mind goes

totally it's such a cycle and yeah so I I would honestly say like a lot of the the anger that that would come out for me was unfairly directed towards my husband because he, I do feel has gone above and beyond the norm. Like he's actually going to be home with Ellie the next two weeks while I go back to work full time. And I think that's been such a beautiful thing that I'm really proud of us is our ability to communicate. And I think we've both expressed how much we want this to feel as equal as it can and and there's always going to be things that as we discussed earlier like that the mother is going to be able to do a little more of and that's where I have trouble because he does so much and has taken on so much and they're still like

I got annoyed because he didn't he didn't he didn't wipe Ellie the right way like I was like you didn't you didn't do that right and and he was like I'm I'm I'm I can do it and so like I think I think it's pausing for myself and asking, A, who should this rage be directed at? Maybe it's the system here. And then B, is this necessary feedback? Is this feedback going to actually do something that's helpful or is it unnecessary? And I think that has been really really that question that I've asked myself has been a game changer for, for how much feedback I'm giving and the way I'm giving it.

Yeah. And like wiping a baby's bum, like that seems like such a silly example, but that honestly is the perfect example of like where you can kind of discern between like, is feedback really necessary here? Is him not wiping her the right way? Actually, it's gonna be like life or death. And I mean, likely no. Like, yeah, likely no. So yeah, like, that's a really good example. Because as you kind of already mentioned, if we're constantly nagging them, for lack of a better word, they're just going to like detach and withdraw and like stop wanting to help. So it's this fine line of not being controlling, but also, talk to me about your experience here. Because in our experience, I'm like the researcher I'm the one that usually initiates like everything and

my husband just kind of like we've cultivated this within our relationship so I own the responsibility because this is how it's been we've been together now for I don't even have lost track we've literally been together since we were in the ninth grade so it's been a long time um and and I actually think about that often where like would things been would things have been a lot different had we not been together so long before having a baby because I feel like we almost cultivated these I don't want to say bad but kind of like bad lazy habits where where I probably did take on more than I needed to, but I was happy to at the time. And then that kind of burned me post baby because it's like, well, wait a minute. Like, I don't actually want to be responsible for all of this. And now you don't know how. And of course,

you don't know how because you've never had to. So back to like the research thing, like I've always kind of worn the pants in the sense of like researching and deciding, well, even like in terms of right back into pregnancy and deciding like what interventions I was okay with. And he completely trusted my lead there. And then with baby, just again, like going down the rabbit holes of sleep and feeding and baby led weaning and like what stroller to get, what vacation to go on. Like it's everything. Like I take that on. And for me, I, I have a really hard time, like, especially now with that, because it feels like he's just like blindly following me. There's never,

um, like there's the support, which from the outside people are probably like oh Nicole you're so lucky like he's so supportive of you and he is he is so supportive of me um but I guess there's like almost that lack of initiation that I think I'm sometimes desiring from him and that creates a lot of tension too because it just puts the pressure on me to I feel like I have to be making the right decision yeah yeah that's yeah um well first of all I think it's like how amazing that you guys have been together so long since ninth grade and I mean that is wild to think about, like the different person that you are now and that he is. It was cool for Aubrey to like how special that, you know, she'll be able to hear that her parents have been together for so long.

And yeah, that's that's such a different situation than us because we Alan and I met as adults, like more so adults. It feels like a different world, but, you know, we'd both been in relationships. We were out of college. We were in our careers. I am totally the researcher and I have yet to find a couple where the woman isn't the researcher. And I, again, I think that just goes back to, hi, sweetie. Aubrey's here with us do you want to say hi Aubrey Aubrey's never been on the podcast before Aubrey do you want to say hi say hi hey hi okay I'm gonna mute our side over here and I'm going to let you keep sharing. Right. Sounds good. Yeah.

I just feel like I've, I've yet to see a couple where that's not the case. And I think it goes back to where a lot of my anger comes in that there's just this like unspoken norm that mothers have to figure it all out. And, and I, I often, my sister and I always like, are like, well, what was it like, you know, when Native Americans were here? I'm like, what was it like in the past? And, and I, same thing. I think the mothers, like, I, I fundamentally believe that, I know it's such a cliche, but like, I really fundamentally believe that women run the world and without women,

we wouldn't function. So I think even then it was still women figuring out the lead, especially in terms of the children, maybe not in every aspect, but definitely the children. And I'm the worrier. So that seems to go hand in hand with being the researcher. Again, this is when we have a problem of like looking at research too much and not trusting our instincts. And there is use to some research, right? Like sometimes it's necessary. So where we kind of land is that is sometimes a point of tension because my husband will be like, why are you researching that? Like, why are you even looking that up? Like you're going on a rabbit hole and it's making my anxiety worse. But I also have felt angry. Like I'm doing all of this

research and figuring all of these things out and it's too much like I need you to carry some of the load and that's when I feel really grateful that I speak up so much and maybe sometimes like you know there's like naggy but he he he changes like he will then I'll say like I need you to do the research on baby led weaning or on how to eat this food. I need you to get the solid starts app. I need you to whatever. And, and he will. So, um, yeah, just like the communication piece has been so important in this postpartum time. And, um, I not just postpartum in raising a child, the communications is so vital. And I have found that I am the first to research but he will do it when I speak up about it

it's cool to hear because I think it can be easy to not even see it as a communication issue right it can be super easy to just almost internalize it as like, oh, well, he doesn't care. He, yeah, he just doesn't care. Like he's not willing to put the time in to like, look this stuff up. And obviously that's not the truth. And I think when I've noticed myself feeling that I'm usually able to kind of detach from it and know that it's just like a story my mind is writing up. But I think you kind of nailed it on the head and it's just like a story my mind is writing up. But I think you kind of nailed it on the head and it's a communication thing. Like all you have to do is voice your need. And that in itself can be so uncomfortable because again, as women, we've kind of grown up in this society where it's not really safe to always voice our truth,

right? We are, yeah, we've been kind of not silenced I mean I think future or previous generations our ancestors definitely like it's it's it's in us um but I think even just like in our own generation like we've been conditioned to be like pretty perfect and pleasing and to just like not rock the boat and not make things harder for someone else and to there's also like this kind of like visual of a model wife and I don't mean like 1950s housewife I mean like modern day modern wife and um and they're so chill and go with the flow that's at least what I yeah well and like yeah so chill so go with the flow that's at least what I yeah well and like yeah so chill so go with the flow um yeah I don't like I don't even know what else to say in terms of painting

that picture but like it's it's not realistic at all and it's certainly not realistic once you become a mom and I think for us again that's where some of maybe the tension came is because we did have such a long history before having a baby where we kind of were living that like model marriage. Like I think we were, I think we were role model. We maybe are, I shouldn't say it's past tense. I think we still are like considered kind of role models within our friend group. Like I think, um, especially because we've been together for so long, like we do have a steady relationship. Like you had said with your husband, like we don't fight a lot. Like we are reasonably good at communicating. Um, like Dylan is very supportive. Like it's all these things. And so from the outside, like we look like things are good. And I mean, things are good.

I'm not saying they're not, but that in itself puts more pressure on me to almost not, it almost like suppresses any negative feelings I start having. Cause it's like, oh wait, like, am I just like making this up? Like, am I being dramatic? Am I, um, yeah, like it just becomes like a bigger story and it's like, well, no, like actually like, it's okay to be feeling these. It's okay to actually identify that you have some unmet needs right now. It's okay to say that you're feeling overwhelmed and it's okay to say that you need more help and that you need him to step up in some way. And that's been a really hard exercise for me. It's been a really, really hard exercise, not just to voice my needs, but to identify my needs. And so many times our

conversations kind of end with him saying, well, just tell me what you need. I'm like, I don't know what you need. Like, I don't know. Like if I knew I would tell you, I don't know. I need you to just know. I need you to just take the initiative and that's so so hard it's so hard because it's not yeah like it's not not feasible for that necessarily well and especially like with our history like like I said we've cultivated this relationship where it has been on me for so many things and I mean he has his own things that have always been on him that I absolutely don't want responsibility for. So it goes both ways. But it's definitely been hard to navigate post baby because the roles have definitely blurred a little bit more.

And yeah, it's interesting stuff that's not talked about. No. And I, you know, I've like felt one of the reasons I also feel excited to return to work because I start next week, which is crazy. And it will be part-time. I'm full-time the first three weeks. And then I go part-time, which I hope be like the right balance. But I've found the mental load, first of all, like that just comes with being a mother, but being a full-time stay at home mom, that mental load, I am calculating things in my head all day. This goes with some of the sleep, right? Like, oh, she went to sleep at this time. When's her nap going to be? But I think even without any sort of, even if I had done zero sleep training or research, like that's going to happen because

you know, your baby's going to have to take a nap at some point. So I, I have found that the mental load of when is Ellie going to sleep? Where's her nap going to be? Am I going to be able to make it to do this one errand today? Um, what is she going to eat today today do I have a bottle ready all of the things it is it's so much and no matter what again I feel like the birthing parent carries extra but when your partner also is not with you and you're alone all day um I have now experienced, we've had our nanny who's going to come. We've done a few trial days and I actually left Ellie for a night and went to a wedding and it is a world of difference. And I don't even know, Nicole, if you've ever experienced it because you are doing it all, but there is no way that you can't feel some frustration that you have held that all day. And it is joyful sometimes to not think about and to

be like, I love education. I can't wait to like have my mental load be on some, it's never going to be off Ellie. I will still be thinking in my head, did she sleep? Did she eat? But to be in it all day long, like, I just think that in itself puts a toll on a relationship because it's, that's an imbalance. I absolutely have not experienced that. Um, but it's, it's cool that you brought that up because I actually had a conversation with a friend about this similar thing. And we were just talking about she's also a stay-at-home mom. She has two kids now. Very different experience with sleep than me.

So we don't have the same struggles there. But she made a comment about how in some of the mom groups that she's been in, the moms that go back to work make comments about how it's easier than staying home with the kids. And we both said, yeah, of course it is. Like, of course, staying at home with the kid is the hard job. Like going to work is the not easy, obviously. And like most moms, not, I shouldn't say most, but a lot of moms don't want to necessarily be at work, especially not full time, because that creates a whole other like emotional cascade of emotions. But yeah, it is easier. And I think for all the reasons you just mentioned, and I think that's the part that husbands partners don't get and don't appreciate. And I think

just reflecting on what you said, and kind of translating it to kind of what I've been feeling I think that's exactly where some of the resentment comes in and the feeling unrecognized is because like Dylan can't get that because he's never experienced that like we'll make comments and like I mean it's not a pissing party but like we'll kind of throw comments back at each other sometimes it's like oh well like should I just go back to work and like you'll just stay throw comments back at each other sometimes. It's like, oh, well, like, should I just go back to work? And like, you'll just stay home. And then I make a joke about like, well, you like, you know how it can probably go. And it's like, that's like, I don't know. It's just not that simple. And I think like you also said the birthing parent is still always going to carry a little bit more. I forgot where I was going to go with that. So you go ahead.

Well, I just feel like it's also, I love that I carry a little bit more. I'm so glad I got to birth where like I, so there's that too. Like I, like, I love, like, I love that I'll have that special connection. I, it's so cheesy, but I read something that a lot of times baby's first word is data and not mama because they think that they are still yeah they literally think they're one with you yeah and we are like it is so magical and I'm so thankful I will say I think I you know I had to stop breastfeeding so that uh also was huge in that Alan could do it all too and why like equal things yeah yeah so I think that's another like when some of my friends talk about because I think a lot of my resentment has faded because I feel um like I've been able to tap into my other parts of my identity again. And I don't think I would if I wasn't going back to work part time,

if I wasn't, if Ellie wasn't on bottles now. And it that's, there's other things that come with that. But in terms of our relationship, it's pretty magical to see, like he can do it all. And I can't wait. We might need to do like a little follow-up episode when he's had his three weeks by himself all day every day the fact that he was even willing to do that um he was the first to admit and that was the most validating thing um when he had a day with

her and he was like oh yeah it's way harder to be home with her. So like having him acknowledge, right? Like that was all I needed to hear. But then sometimes I'm like, but I want to be with her all day too. So it's like a constant push and a pull. Yeah. Yeah.

That's exactly it. There is constantly this push and pull. There's always this like paradox paradox, right juxtaposition do they both be the same thing I don't unfortunately I only teach second grade so okay I'm sure whoever's listening knows what I'm trying to say the push and pull we'll go back to simple words I won't try to use my fancy vocabulary that I don't actually have um so like the push and pull, like the thing is, is it's always there. And I think that's when we kind of get ourselves into trouble is when we're not actually open to both sides of it. And we're always like butting ourselves instead of and. And I've already noticed just in this

conversation right now, you are very very very intentional with your language and putting and in between things instead of but because it is an and it's not a but um and where I was going to go with that is it's just really cool to hear your experience more recently compared to some of what I've heard you speak about like a couple months ago, and then just comparing to kind of where we're at and what I've been feeling recently. And for me, I'm totally experiencing this. I think I have moments of wanting kind of that equal load that you are feeling right now, but I can very easily come back to, well, no, like, I feel like this is where I'm you are feeling right now. But I can very easily come back to, well, no, I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be right now. I'm feeling really content with

this being my role and also really leaning into the fact that it's just a season of my life. This isn't permanent. And so when this is hard, just leaning into, yeah, that it's not permanent. This is temporary and that it's not going to be like this forever. And I actually have a lot of peace with that. And my frustrations come when I'm feeling pressure from the outside world to get back into my old things or to get out of the house more or to spend less time with my kid. And I'm like, I actually don't want to, I actually want to be at home and I actually want to keep breastfeeding and I actually want to keep co-sleeping. And I think this conversation is just a really beautiful example of there is so much nuance to this and

we're allowed to each have our own experiences and preferences and goals and desires and things are going to fit differently for each family and yeah it's just really cool yeah I I think all that you're bringing up is really important and and I think it's been the hardest thing for me postpartum is trying to figure out what do I want versus what do I feel like I should want and do and I um I I can get really in my head about it like even as you're speaking I like I that doubt creeps in of like oh yeah wait would I rather whatever it might be and I guess a few things one I think these decisions that we're making as mothers it's never going to be we're never going to know 100% like with going back to work and choosing to do the part-time it's never going to be, we're never going to know a hundred percent like with going

back to work and choosing to do the part-time it's literally like 51, 49. And it's going to be trial and error, right? Like, and you also are allowed to change your mind and you're allowed to pivot and it's a season of your life. So if it works right now, it might not work a year from now. And like, again, there's just okay to have this flexibility. And to not know, to not know our ultimate plan and where we're going to be. But I also was reading a really great blog post where someone was talking about like sex postpartum and sex with young kids. And the same thing, there's so much pressure to get like right back to where you were before and I love this woman said I know this is just a season and and so does my husband and I think again that's what has been key for me is just like this openness and communication that thankfully I like I that's a huge um that me. Like I will tell you anything and everything

you want to know. And I am so glad I am that way. Um, and so glad that my husband loves that about me. And I think that's, that's saved us that, that we can open and like talk about like, yeah, like, like how special is it that Aubrey's in your bed you love that of course that's going to change your intimate relationship but like it's a season that you like will cherish and Ellie was with us on and off for a bit and I loved it but I couldn't sleep so like it didn't work forever um yeah yeah like you not being afraid that whatever wherever you're at is going to be forever and I think that's like where a lot of fears and anxieties come in is not realizing that things are always in motion and

fluid um yeah I can speak to the sex piece a little bit because we have a little bit of an unpopular I won't say opinion but like just unpopular experience on our side of the world over here. So I didn't get my period back postpartum until you got to say like, we got our periods at the same time. That's hilarious. That's crazy. I was so early and I was not late but like neither you weren't early I wasn't late yeah everyone is just so different yeah that's hilarious um also that's just like reminding me that maybe I share too much online that's hilarious no I like it um anyways like yeah so but that's been like a big part of my postpartum journey in itself is

the fact that I didn't get my period back for so long and I could feel oh I don't even know how to describe it like almost this the word dense is coming up and that doesn't necessarily make sense to my logical mind but almost like this density with my hormones and just feeling almost like stuck. Like it just felt like things weren't fluid like they should be. And that kind of makes sense because if I didn't have my cycle back, there wasn't that like hormonal ebb and flow that's supposed to happen. And previous to becoming pregnant, I've been on either birth control or I had an IUD. So I've never really actually had a un... Medicated, I guess. I guess. Yeah. I've always had a synthesized period, I guess yeah I'm medic yeah like uh yeah like it's I've always had a synthesized period I

guess yeah um so I was actually really looking forward to getting my cycle back I had been just I mean my whole perspective on health care and everything had changed so drastically with my birth um and I had definitely stepped into more of like a natural mindset. And I was really excited to start like cycle syncing. And I knew I didn't want to go on birth control. I knew that I was going to be tracking my cycle. And so yeah, I was really looking forward to getting my cycle back. And with not having my cycle plus breastfeeding plus co-sleeping I had absolutely zero libido and couple that with the disconnection that I was feeling with my husband I like didn't want to be intimate and I think because we've been together for so long our sex life I don't want

to say it's not important but like I, I think it's just different. I think when you've been together so long that like, you just see it as this bigger picture. And like, if there's like a year of no sex, it's just like a teeny tiny blip in your whole relationship. I don't even know if that makes sense. Like that's kind of how I see it. And thankfully my husband, um, I think at least verbally he says he does too he's been so supportive in in that respect um and I've like just been really open about communicating with him my own understandings of my body and helping him understand like it's not it's not you like it's not that I don't have an interest in you it's not that I'm not in love with you anymore like it's

none of that none of that is true it's like my body it's feeling touched out it's like I'm still it's all of the things and having him kind of see it from that perspective and then also explaining how biologically like especially since I'm still breastfeeding and my body thinks it's still sustaining life so it's not gonna be able to sustain and like it thinks that it can't sustain another pregnancy right so it all makes sense and leaning into that has given me a lot of I think compassion for just what's going on in my body and it's helped him understand too um we have introduced sex back into our relationship now that my period's back things

are feeling much less dense um so things are a lot better but it was a very interesting let's call it like 18 19 20 months because of course everyone on the outside world thinks it's absolutely barbaric that a husband and wife hasn't had sex for that long and back to like this model wife and like model relationship it's a crime and I don't know I just think that that whole narrative needs to shift and I I worry that I I don't even know if I should say this out loud but it is my podcast so I guess I can say whatever I want but I almost sometimes I like cringe when I hear about families having like two under two. And it just makes me wonder, like, did she actually want to be intimate or was there some pressure or like at least like felt pressure on her like her end? Because I just can't imagine in my own experience even getting into the position that could make me pregnant and have two kids under two like it's

biologically impossible and I totally recognize that obviously had I not been breastfeeding had we not been co-sleeping had I had my cycle returned earlier obviously the whole hormonal cocktail in my body would have been completely different and so I can't really speak for the women that do have two under two, obviously things were probably very different for them, but it does make me wonder like, is back to like the people pleasing thing and like the model wife, like, and I think that's really interesting when you start thinking about it. So hard to distinguish between what, what do I want versus what it goes back to that desire

versus should yeah and I'm really really proud of Dylan and I and our relationship that we've been able to honor my desires because I think I mean intimacy obviously is special it's sacred and I think had we rushed into it when my body wasn't ready there could have been a whole buttload of issues right there could have been more disconnection there could have been like trauma for my body there could have been pain like and that hasn't been an experience at all so I'm really proud that we did wait until it did become a desire of mine um I think that's how it should be. I'll leave it at that. Definitely. I think that's how it should be. Yeah. It's such a nuanced topic though.

It really is. I think the period coming back is huge. When I think that's like nature's indication too. Like, and so. Well, let me just ask you about that. I felt violated by my body that I got my period back I was like how the fuck could I get pregnant Nicole I had a three-month-old like imagine yeah that's a really interesting perspective and it makes sense like I feel like I would have felt

the same too like what the heck you want me to do what What? Yeah. Even in my, I don't know what it's like, was like for you in Canada, but I, I, I'm excited that I can see your face. I went home from the hospital and I like go through the, you know, they give me a bag of things. The first thing I pull out is birth control. I also told them I like, I hadn't been on birth control I I hate it I hate hormonal birth it's just like part of the goodie bag it's the souvenir that you get to bring home from the hospital having a baby yeah and I hadn't even been on it like I years before we even wanted to have a baby I just um tracked my cycle and like you know we didn't get pregnant it would have been fine if we did but like we didn't like i was my cycle and i i hate hormonal birth control so it was just a wild scene that they they send me home with that and you know like well also like it's not like it's just like

this over-the-counter medication like tylenol that like yeah here one size fits all like most people have maybe a specific type they want. And like you usually get a prescription like, whoa. Like you're not even literally not supposed to have sex at least for six weeks. So I'm like, who is having sex right now? What? Yeah. Well, and so again, that kind of brings me back to like, it just makes me wonder what

pressures are these women experiencing in the home either from their partner or from their friends or from the media um and like even in terms of like their own self-confidence and their own worthiness like there might be just that mind chatter of like i'm not a good wife if I don't have sex with my husband. And like the whole spiral that goes on from there. Yeah, I don't know. That wasn't my experience, but it does make me wonder how many women are experiencing that and just aren't able to speak about it. Right, right. Yeah.

It's great. Yeah. I, I feel like with sex, it's just so important to listen to your body. So I, I felt like kind of curious, like what's, what's postpartum sex going to be like as I went into it, like a curiosity knowing, like, I might not like this and that's okay, but I'm like like just curious how my let's talk about this I feel like there'd be so many people that if they're pregnant like that is it's like the postpartum poop right like you just want to know you're dreading it and I feel like for me I had um I had a lot of pelvic floor um I don't know, I don't want to call it pain. I don't want to call it like dysfunction. Like I didn't have any of the classic like pelvic floor symptoms, but I did tear and I had my labor wasn't fast, but I only pushed for 20 minutes. So the pushing time was fast. And I guess that takes a real toll on your pelvic floor. So my pelvic floor was not happy for a very long time. And I think looking back, that was another layer to my lack of desire is some

fear around, is there going to be pain? Even like fear of exploring my own body on my own, like just not even sure what things are supposed to feel like anymore and then like visualization of a baby came out of here so what's happening down there now and like all these things and yeah so to be honest like I was fearful um for a very long time and I think by the time that we finally did um intercourse again, it really like just became this moment of like, I wasn't even thinking about it. Like it just became so natural and it just happened. And it kind of brings me back to like, back to like the first time and like just kind of some fears around that. But then I don't know like it it didn't hurt

like I I guess I'll I'll just say that like it didn't hurt for me there's definitely like some tightness um and it it I don't know I think the tightness also was maybe my own you tightening right like yeah exactly yeah like so not actually yeah and so like all the other times after have basically been back to normal as if nothing ever happened which is really cool right like that like our bodies just like go back to that I'm super curious though like what your experience was because it would have been much earlier than much earlier yeah I um I was really grateful that I had like learned about the pelvic floor pre even getting pregnant which I think is like quite rare which is terrible one of my best terrible yeah cool that you you knew a thing or two yeah one of my best friends

is a pelvic floor physical therapist so I got to learn a lot and so I like had been to a pelvic floor physical therapist before getting pregnant and then I went a bunch during pregnancy and now postpartum um so I am someone who like naturally I think just like holds tension in my pelvic floor like as me too yeah shoulders and I think it's really common again, no one talks about, um, so I, that helped me feel super empowered and labored that I felt even more connected to my body. I think it's partly why I was like, okay, like I can do this without medications, um, without intervention. I didn't, my perineum didn't tear. Like that's the classic spot that tears. Ellie came out with her hands up. So my labia tore and is forever

changed. I kind of love it. It's like a little like, she left a permanent mark it's great um I like I asked my OB like does it because the skin grow back there and she's like no I could do a procedure and I was like no I do not need a procedure to change my labia um so that area was really tender and I the first few months postpartum felt like like I had a terrible prolapse I didn't but I felt that like heaviness feeling like certain movements I was like is my vagina literally gonna fall out right like that of me yeah um but it's gotten better with time and I like with exercises so yeah back to like with the first time we had sex, I, I, yeah, I had all this like anxiety, like, oh, what's this going to be like? But it, it didn't, I didn't feel afraid.

I again, felt curious and I felt safe. And I think that's because I've been like really open about my body. Like, I love that you use those words curious curious and safe because I think I think that's what I was feeling too and I just didn't have the language to say that and then also it's really cool because that really reflects and mirrors my experience with birth and leading into labor yeah I wasn't scared I, there was actually some excitement and so much curiosity and that's just so, so cool. When I first felt labor beans, I was jumping for joy. Cause I was like, I just finally like, yeah. And I, when I was in labor, um, I got a message from a dear friend who said all the women who all the women who've come before you

are surrounding you in light and love and like like I just enter the world um so and I like think about what we learn I also was super excited to get my period so um like like back when I very first time I ever had it and I remember we talked about in our matricence course um your view of getting your period and like how that experience was for you is really correlated with with pregnancy and birth um and maybe it's all related also to like having sex so yeah yeah it seems like we're very aligned in that like curious yet safe and I'm I'm thankful for that so sex did feel different to me at first I mean I think partly probably I mean truly was still healing a little bit right but yeah not painful it was kind of like re-flooring my body yeah and I we definitely don't have sex the same amount because we're so tired so it's different yeah it's different yeah it's okay we now have sex

next to our sleeping kids so hopefully she doesn't like have nightmares when she's like older like I like I don't know I I honestly do think that that is somewhat normal in anywhere else except North America. So I have no shame in saying that out loud. No. There's probably people cringing as they listen to that. But yeah. And like, yeah. Yeah.

And I think like back to what we said in the beginning, like this is it's all just a new season. And so it's going not permanent no and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be having sex in front of like my five-year-old when she's sleeping like I think that's a lot different I will just put that out there but see that it's also like how much we hide from our kids about our body. Oh, absolutely. That's like a whole other layer to this. Yeah.

That's actually really cool. You bring that up because my past couple of cycles, I mean, since Aubrey's getting older, she's walking, she's exploring, she's my little shadow. So she'll often come to the bathroom with me when I'm bleeding. And I notice her notice that there's something different, right? She notices that there's blood, there's red in my pants, or there's red in the toilet. And I can see her like, I'm not concerned, but curious. And so I've already started verbalizing things and like narrating for her and explaining to her what's going on and I think that's just super cool and for me um I don't

remember where I spoke this out loud I don't know if it was on my Instagram or I don't know but I know when I when I finally did get my cycle back it really really felt like a redemption in just honoring my body because I feel like I didn't get to when I got my cycle for the first time when I was a teenager. And like, since I've learned more about the cycle, I now understand that like, each menstruation really is almost like a mini postpartum. And so for me, each time I'm on my bleed, it really is an opportunity again, to start honoring myself and honoring my body and just follow my body's cues and listen to its requests for rest or slowing down or whatever that is. And I just feel so grateful that I'm in a place and have the capacity to actually listen to my body's, my body's needs right now. It's so cool.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a baby. These babies like totally change us for the better. That's what I felt, but there's lots of ups and downs, but I, I am so much more happy with the person I am since becoming a mother. And that is, I feel so much gratitude for that. Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. Like, I think on one side, like I can say, I don't recognize myself, but on the other side, I also feel like I'm the most me I've ever been. And it's, yeah, like, it's weird. Like, how can I say both? But that's the truth. It's the truth. Yeah. I feel like we really were reborn into our, into who we're meant to be. Before we officially log out out do you want to quickly

just mention where people can connect with you I know you've started a sub stack yeah so the sub stack is great Instagram won't I'll link it in the show notes for people to get access if you're okay with that yeah that's totally fine I um yeah I uh have to decide I have like some some old students following me on Instagram so I don't that's yeah definitely not the I don't know how much I'll I like have it private because I actually have to I'm like in my contract so yeah the sub stack is great okay that's perfect you can still message someone on Instagram, even if their account's private, right? Maybe. I think so. I think it might just go to like your but whatever Instagram's version of junk is, do you have email if people wanted to connect? Yeah. Okay. I'll put it in the, I'll put it in the show notes. So just message me your email

and I'll make sure it's there. That's perfect. you Nicole are you on the same time zone is it 6 20 for you no 7 20 I'm an hour ahead but Aubrey's still awake of course she is so does she go to bed when you go to bed what oh so that yeah that's basically the thing oh do you want to quick we can here I'm gonna stop recording this doesn't need to be recorded so Hillary and I had stopped recording and then we started talking about sleep and we have very different sleep experiences and sleep stories to share um and at the time of recording this it's also the same week that I just released an episode on my unapologetic views on sleep training and that is that I just don't believe in it and I am not a fan and Hillary has been explaining her story and the fact that they did sleep train and that her daughter is now sleeping

well right now I loved it but that's what I love like you're one of the only people I feel like people are like so distinct in their views like pro sleep training or not but like I feel zero judgment from you and I hope you feel zero judgment for me yeah no exactly yeah that's what it is and I we I wanted to just re-record this because I think this is a really valuable conversation because I think we both kind of are sitting at opposite ends of the spectrum in a sense but also seeing like the common again just bringing the conversation back to like the systemic perspective and the like motherhood culture parenthood culture and the pressures on parents and um in the states like the garbage maternity leave you guys get like we were just talking about all of that

off air um and saying how like your experience potentially could have been different had there not been the return to work and had breastfeeding been more successful for you. And I had shared how like the fact that we are still co-sleeping now and I'm breastfeeding, like I can't even fathom the idea of having to get out of bed to go feed my child. Like, why would I do that? Of course, I'm just going to keep my eyes closed and roll over to feed her. Um, so it's just like completely unique circumstances. And like, I didn't have to go back to work. I didn't have to worry about getting enough sleep to go perform at my job. Um, there's just so much nuance to it. And, um, again, before I hit record again, I had told Hillary a very, a dirty little secret of mine. And that's that I had a snoo. We were given a snoo from our friends. And back in the

day, back in the day, meaning 22 months ago, I talk about it like it's so long ago, but it does feel like it feels so long ago. And like the iteration and evolution of myself has just changed so drastically that I do generally have a lot of compassion for that version of myself. And I see her and I hold her and I know that she is doing better with what she knows now. But in the moment, she did the best that she could. And so, yeah, that version of myself got very bombarded with just, yeah, with sleep and having all the right tools and all the right things. And I am a person that needs a lot of sleep. I have, I'd call it myself like high sleep needs. Like I need like 10 hours if I can get it, I don't function well if I don't get sleep. So sleep

brought me a lot of anxiety before having a baby. And so yeah, I was kind of trying to get all my tools ready so that we would hopefully have the most successful sleep journey possible. And so part of that was this snoo. And my friend had it, was letting us borrow it. I also thought they look really nice. So I was happy to have it in my house and we didn't use it at first. I, well, okay, this is a funny story. When I was pregnant, I was really firm on not committing to where Aubrey was going to sleep.

I didn't know if we were going to co-sleep. I was worried about co-sleeping because of the dogs, like no dogs in the bed is a pretty strict rule for co-sleep I was worried about co-sleeping because of the dogs like no dogs in the bed is a pretty strict rule for co-sleeping and so I was worried that it wouldn't even be an option for us so we had this new we had another bassinet we had her crib of course um I had options I didn't know what we were gonna do but I had a home birth and um she was born in the afternoon the evening came around sorry what was that like it's home birth pretty like common in canada or more like the state okay no yeah it's i think equal to you guys um that's a whole other conversation like looking back covid was really the cherry on top to pushing me over the edge to commit because literally the day i had

aubrey was the day that the policy on like support people changed and it changed back to just one person and I also had a doula so I would have had to choose between my husband or my doula my husband knows this I would have chosen the doula hands down I haven't known too I would have yeah yeah I mean we paid her yeah yeah totally oh but like I didn't want to have to make that choice so that really helped push me over the edge because I think deep down I always knew I wanted a home birth I was just really scared um yeah long story short we had the home birth and so Aubrey was born in the afternoon breastfeeding was going fairly well nighttime came I couldn't imagine separating

myself from her like it was just not even something I was considering I felt so safe um I just yeah like I I wasn't even worried one bit I don't think our dogs sleep in our bed with us but our dogs are also very respectful and very intuitive um and I was just watching how they were interacting with her and I had zero like concerns so listening to your gut thank you and it was hard um I have really supportive midwives too they I think they did a good job of just commending me on making these decisions even if they weren't following the rules I remember my one midwife um some of the best advice she gave me was like, literally just pretend you're on a deserted island. You can't Google anything. You

can't ask friends anything. You just have to trust yourself. And so I really sat with that for several, several nights. Like, cause I remember thinking like, how the hell are these people leaving us alone with this kid? Like, no wonder people have babies in hospitals. Then they have a nurse and a call bell. They can just call the nurse all the time. Yeah. And I have so much gratitude for not being in hospital because it forced me and it forced

Dylan to jump right into our roles as parents. We didn't have anyone to lean on we had to trust ourselves and that is just so cool and it's so cool that we got to do it together anyways back to the snooze so well and like so the co-sleeping so ended up co-sleeping right from day one really haven't really looked back did you like follow the rules of like putting your bed on the floor okay yeah no not yet so at that point I mean she was a newborn she wasn't mobile in the sense yeah she was also like so teeny tiny like I I'm trying to remember I think I followed the rules in the sense I was very careful about like blankets and like keeping them just at my waist um I definitely

still slept with a pillow but I was I was noticing myself and I've heard this with women that are breastfeeding is like you literally wake up before your baby does yeah yeah and so like I had noticed that with myself and again that just really helped deepen that self-trust because it's like nothing's gonna happen to her because I'm already awake like it's it's literally. And then I was sleeping in the cuddle curl. Like I just felt so safe. Like it felt more safe to have her with me than to have her in a different room. And dogs were with us, never booted the dogs out of the bed, never booted them out of the bed. They've never stepped on her. Like, it's just been so cool to see how intuitive they are with her um yeah fast forward

a couple months I think it was around I don't know I want to say maybe like three-ish months I remember I followed like I followed taking care of babies on Instagram and like other like what about hey sleepy baby do you follow her yeah I follow her I love Rachel um but I remember following like other like sleep training accounts and really falling into the cycle of like well your baby should start napping independently and Aubrey had zero desire to nap independently like she wanted to be on me all the time and I thought okay the only way I'm ever going to get anything done the only way I'm ever gonna be able to done, the only way I'm ever going to be able to find myself again, because again, I was still in the mentality

that I need to get back to my old self. I need to find myself again. I need to do all these things. I had zero space and compassion for myself to just be in this new role of mother. So yeah, I fell down all the traps and I see them as traps now. I fell down all the traps of thinking

that she needed to be at least napping independently um that there needed to be this perfect like eat play sleep pattern like it like I was probably like you like you've talked about being obsessed with sleep and I would have like notes and notes of like keeping track of everything and just trying to find patterns and almost like this like mad scientist about it. Yeah, no, it's mental gymnastics. Literally. And so anyways, we had this new started just nap times in it. Aubrey never loved being swaddled.

And part of the snoo is being in this like straight jacket. So that was always a struggle. I often didn't use it. I would just like wrap. There's like a waist thing that kind of goes around them. So I would wrap that around her. Cause then it allows you to let like the rocking motion go. And so I would be using that for naps, like daytime sleep. And basically the snooze was in my living room. I was literally two steps away. So I was still always with her. And yeah, like that was working. So then we started using it at night and um I want to say

this is around like four three four months ish I should actually like look because she's always been a very long baby and thank god because it made us stop using the snoo earlier than I think most people can use the snoo because she was starting to seem too big thank you Aubrey um basically we started using the snoo at night when she did still fit in it and it was it was working um she was sleeping really well in the snoo and I vividly remember nights where I would lay awake just watching her because my boobs were engorged. I'm like, you need to wake up. I need to feed you. I could never dream feed though. It never worked. I was never able to pick her up and just feed her and put her back to sleep. And that stressed me out.

I thought something was wrong with me. Why can't I dream feed? My poor kid is starving. My boobs are engorged. Well, she's not starving because she's sleeping, but my boobs are engorged. I'm uncomfortable. And now I'm feeling selfish because I'm uncomfortable and I want her to wake up like this whole thing anyways I think the whole snoo thing was really only a couple of weeks and then we stopped using it and she wasn't sleeping well again and I want to say this was around the four month mark so I think I was just equating it to the four month sleep regression. And, um, yeah, I'm, I don't really remember like the, the actual chronological order of everything, but basically post new, she's been in bed ever since. Um, what is her sleep nicole like does she still wake up like

still nurse at night in the night so well and this is the really tricky thing to kind of decipher is is she waking up just to latch back on for food or to latch back on for comfort or to latch back on out of habit and then also like I feel like I'm sleeping well but I still wake up before her and so I wonder am her up um oh my god so there's there's just a lot to it and it's just so funny because like yeah there's all these things there's all these unknowns and sure I guess the alternative is we try to throw her in her own bed and we see what happens but I think for me a part of it now is just noticing my own anxiety and my own like nervous system and like I do get activated when she's crying and if I like I want to respond to her so I don't know I've just never been comfortable enough to even try to go there. Um, even with naps and stuff, like I still respond immediately. Basically she still wakes up after like 40, 50, 60 minutes.

And it's always an ultimatum for me. Do I want to let her latch back on and then be nap trapped for basically like part B of the nap? Cause that's what it turns into. Or do I want to go on with my life and we stop and that basically means she's going to be awake and so it's either a short nap where I can be independent or it's a longer nap but then I'm not trapped and again like I just have so much peace with this just being a temporary season in my life that's what I go back to but like just listening to your story I recognize some privilege in the sense of not having to go back to. But like, just listening to your story, I recognize some privilege in the sense of not having to go back to work, still being able to breastfeed. Like there's all these

factors that do play a role into it for sure. And I also just don't, I, I still like have trouble grappling with like, will it really be a season? Because like, I hear these stories that people are like, my 10 year old still doesn't sleep, get used to it. And I'm like, will it really be a season? Because like, I hear these stories that people are like, my 10 year old still doesn't sleep, get used to it. I'm like, but like, what does that even mean? Right? Like, I think also, like, I wake up at night. Me too. And I've actually been reflecting a lot of time because Aubrey's really cute lately, where she'll unlatch. So she's not like feeding anymore. And she'll, she'll just wants to be little spoon. And I'm like, I get it, girl'll she just wants to be little spoon and i'm like i get it girl i just want to be a little spoon too like why is that wrong no and it's so

because there's so many nights where we fall asleep where i'm middle spoon aubrey's little spoon and dylan's big spoon and it's like okay like who wouldn't want that who wouldn't want totally and when when ellie was in our bed like we were the classic so tired she'd wake up at four because she slept in her room in a bassinet like by us but the girl sounded like a farm animal at first like with this crazy sound she was making yes the newborn dinosaur nobody talks about that I thought something was wrong I'm like what and she's such a loud sleeper she always has been I couldn't couldn't hang that's what that was like when that was happening I was like hey she can't be in our room like I'm I just stare at her like are you alive all night which saying it out loud I'm like so then I just kick her out of the room and let her die in the other room. But I was in such a, I was, I just was convinced that if I sleep, maybe I'll start to feel like me again. Because I was at a point of feeling like I can't live like this. I would say

I was like, I was not suicidal. And I also felt very strongly that I couldn't survive anymore that way um and I do think sleep helped like I genuinely think it did help me a little bit um but it was like of course it did yeah yeah it does help and I I also feel grateful that Ellie seemed well I don't know what she would have been like we kind of were doing all the things, but taking care of babies that you should do. And like all those people, she never seemed to cry that much. She did end up having a cow milk protein allergy. So she had blood in her poop and that was terrifying. And then I got mastitis.

So there was so many terrible things going on where she was pretty colicky and you know when they're eight weeks old you don't let them cry you know you we we were always responding it wasn't until she was like I guess it was at the four month point that I was like let's see what happens like will she if we just put her to sleep and of course the night we decided to do that she didn't cry nicole slept through the night um but we had i just want to like stop there and almost bring that back to like our instincts and like following our baby's cues and maybe it was almost like well exactly and also just like this um almost like preface for this whole conversation that like every baby is so unique and like their

temperaments are all different and some babies do respond quite well to supports to sleep and others don't, whether it's formal sleep training or not, like some babies do. And I feel like Aubrey is not one of them. And I've just been really in tune with that because I feel like back in the early days, we did kind of try a lot of those things and I could tell that she wasn't responsive to it. And so I think, again, like intuitively, it didn't feel right. But like, I'm almost hearing your story and like the very fact that the first night, it sounds like it went well with like very little protest yeah i could see how that would almost feel like okay well maybe this is okay like this is feeling okay

right now so i don't know it is all about like just following your intuition and following your baby's cues and like what works for your family i i i really do go back to that too like yeah yeah and and that's when I feel this way. I won't, this is not a podcast about our education system, but I feel this way about many things. Like, do, am I going to fight? Am I really fighting the system? Like this whole issue that America are freaking workaholics and we don't support mothers. Like, is me not sleep training going to change that? No. And like, to be honest, I will suffer. So I liked what you said about like, every baby is different. I, I like a part of me wants to believe that like Ellie knew that like her mama needed that. Like she was in tune with me. Like

my mom, my mom isn't able to hang. And so like, I can't sleep with my mom. And that's what I tell myself because I still have some like heart, I still have a heartbreak about our breastfeeding journey. And, um, yeah, I mean, there's sometimes painful to like have her in her little room by herself. But when she, when I look at the monitor and the girl is awake, sitting up, just smiling, I'm like, you're okay. She doesn't even cry when she wakes up. So I, again, I think that's, is it, is it like a defense mechanism? Maybe to tell myself what I've done is okay, but I love her room. She seems to love her room. She plays in her crib sometimes. Like I, we've made it work, right? We've made it. There's also like the possibility that would she have

just started sleeping while on her own without like, right. You just never know because their sleep changes so often it changes right like in the last few weeks she used to always be awake at like five in the last few weeks she's been waking up later and like it might go back who the heck yeah there's still so much unpredictability um it was cool just to hear you make the comment about, um, I like what I think what you said was like, does me not sleep training really like fix the systemic issues? And like, obviously the answer is no, but it kind of took me back to our initial conversation about like communication with our partners and really just discerning between like, is this something that I need to nag him on or is this just right?

And that's kind of like the secret to, I think, motherhood and partnership is sort of picking your battles and really just choosing like what's worth your energy and what does need to be voiced versus what is maybe just, maybe it's like your perfectionism popping up. Maybe it's your own insecurities. Maybe it's your own desire for control and like micromanaging. And I mean, I could go on and on and on because now I start seeing like the parallels of growing a business and like, Ooh, it just like can spiral into so many directions from here so I feel like we should try to tie things up unless there's any other points that you want to make um my sleep trained baby is about to go to bed kiss her good night and your girl is probably partying

my not sleep trained baby it's almost eight o'clock here at night I don't think she's going to bed yet who knows though she there's it's it's funny like I've just gotten so comfortable with I'm not comfortable with the unpredictability because it does drive me nuts when I can't like completely plan my day but I also recognize that that's my own just like control freak tendencies um but yeah for the most part I've really gotten comfortable with just following her cues and like she's never not slapped I always go back to that like she's never not slapped yeah she's never not slapped yeah I think this is another big thing and like just adds to the nuances I always hear horror stories from parents where they're like yeah like if my kid goes to bed up

late or stays up late um they're like just like a huge crank the next day and like talking about just these huge behavioral shifts from lack of sleep and I'm like we've never actually experienced that like Aubrey is just very I mean she's not calm but like I don't notice huge fluctuations with her behavior from sleep so again it's kind of allowed me not to be like make me so concerned about it yeah totally totally just great stories yeah yeah like Ellie was fussy I mean I think she really is but I'm still like oh yeah like you're fussy because your tooth is kind of like we have bad days too yeah you're yeah you're literally making us your tooth is kind of like, we have bad days too. Yeah.

Literally making us like, yeah, no. And I mean, it's an educated guess, but it is just a guess. They, it's tricky because they can't communicate. So. This was so fun. Yeah, it was so fun. We can probably do this every day. Okay, before you go, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to listen to

this episode. If you were thinking of anyone while listening, please send it their way. And if anything resonated with you or you love these conversations, please subscribe and leave a review. This really helps the podcast algorithms put my show in front of more people just like you. And the last thing, I would love nothing more than hearing from you. So say hi, DM me on Instagram and give me a follow at Nicole Pazvir. Until next time.