RHAP: We Know Survivor - Christian Hosts Rob’s LA Book Talk

Episode Date: May 24, 2026

Christian Hosts Rob’s LA Book Talk Survivor fans are in for a treat as Christian Hubicki sits down with Rob Cesternino for a special live interview celebrating Rob’s New York Times bestselling book at a sold-out Barnes & Noble event in Los Angeles. Instead of deconstructing the latest vote or breaking down Tribal Council drama, this episode spotlights Rob’s journey from Survivor castaway to podcast pioneer to acclaimed author, offering a fresh perspective on what it means to be part of the Survivor community for over two decades. Christian and Rob dig into Rob’s reasons for writing the book, how it blends Survivor history with his own story, and what it was like turning 26 years of experiences into a compelling and often funny narrative. The conversation touches on the evolving role of Survivor heroes and villains, Jeff Probst’s influence both on-screen and behind the scenes, and the challenges of maintaining objectivity in a tight-knit fan and player community. There’s a behind-the-scenes look at Rob’s transition to full-time podcasting, the growth of the RHAP patron community, and the importance of just taking the leap to follow your passions, even if it all starts with a weird idea and a lot of trial and error. – Rob explains how the book came together in time for Survivor’s 25th anniversary and what it meant to weave his autobiography into the show’s legacy – Reflections on working with co-writer Alex Pavlovic and searching through years of RHAP archives – Anecdotes about Survivor superfandom, chance celebrity encounters, and picking which Survivor moments did (and didn’t) make it into the book – Christian asks Rob about work-life balance, advice for creators, and the evolution of Jeff Probst’s legacy – Audience Q&A covering everything from the best forgotten players to how Survivor (and RHAP) connects fans around the world Jump into this candid conversation to learn what happens when Survivor’s biggest superfan turns his microphone toward his own story, and find out why Rob’s journey connects with superfans and newbies alike. 0:00 Barnes and Noble Live Podcast 0:30 Rob Cesternino’s Survivor Journey Recapped 2:13 Writing the Survivor Book: Inspiration 4:06 Editing Survivor History Into Essays 6:34 Audience Judgment and Survivor Analysis 8:16 Evolution of Heroes and Villains Explained 12:15 Rick Devens vs. Joe: Hero Dynamics 15:41 Comparing Rob and Jeff’s Career Approaches 21:32 Going Full Time With Podcasting 26:38 Advice: Starting Your Creative Passion To order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

We turn this on? Is this a... Yes. All right. From, they call it Barnes and Chris Noble. Boom. There's a lot more wrapping in that version of the store, I would say. Well, Rob, this is an absolute pleasure to be here with you.

And look, I know that you just got your introduction. I feel now that I have you right in front of me, I have to just say, like, how awesome is it to have Rob here? And one journey. And one journey you have been through, you know, being on Survivor twice, starting a podcast, before podcasts were hot, you know, but now they're extremely, the nuclear hot, I think, is the phrase. I'd be cold now. Yeah, well. You have been no better than me. But you've done over 5,000 podcasts now, and now in your time's bestseller.

Okay. But now you have written this book. Why? Write this book, my friend. Well, I'll tell you in a minute. But first of, how cool is it that Dr. Christian Ubicki is here? What a journey you've been on. And I can't appreciate enough of how that you're out here for your trip,

and you took some time out of your trip here to come to the Survivor finale and be here with us. And so thank you. Appreciate it. It's great to be here. Seriously, this was a... an absolute joy to get this call to want to do this. Yeah. Just my own history, I've been listening to Robbins' Podcasts for many years.

I think I started around Sir Robert Kagayan, 2014. My wife and I would listen in all these long car rides. We'd put on the evolution of strategy. That's what you put out. Oh, it's a great audio book to listen to. And so I feel like I've had you in my ears for hundreds of hours, over 1,000 at this point. But like, well over 1,000.

But what inspired you to write this book? So I would say that it was probably less about inspiration and more about timing, as any great survivor player knows. And it was the 25th anniversary of Survivor that was coming up. And I've always thought about, hey, one day, we could turn this all into a book. And of course, along the way. And I'm very excited to have here, another one of my great friends.

Josh Wiggler is around the corner. Run out. Run out. right across the stage. And he and I, back in 2014, started something that was an audiobook, really just a 300-hour long podcast that you referenced, where we went through every single season of Survivor leading up to the 30th season of Survivor. And it was just the 30th season of Survivor.

Famously. And Jeff called it in the finale. He said, yes, this is the fifth. 50th season. It's also just the 50th season. Did you say that? I think he said that the final tribal council. I'm not offended. Yeah. And so we had done that previously,

but we never did anything that was like this. And so I was contacted by the publisher of the book, and his name is Sean Delone, and he reached out and sort of like a cold email

and said, hey, have you ever thought about writing a book about Survivor? And this was in the spring of 2024 and I said no I never thought about it and then I started on this journey and indeed and it's been wildly successful and right out of the gate

I'm so happy for you that's incredible I think I haven't checked it out but I think the first New York Times bestseller that has a Missy and Baylor joke in it. And it's also in the miscellaneous category indeed indeed so you know

so you start to write this book and I obviously have an opportunity to cultivate your thoughts, you know, whereas when you're talking, it's for 300 hours with Josh Wiggler, you know, things just flow out and these ideas, you know. But like, now that you're an opportunity to edit, you're almost spoiled for choice with Survivor. Like, what was your goal? How did you decide what should go in this book? Yeah, I think the challenge was ultimately, what do you write about where there's so many things in the history of Survivor that you could write a book about?

And I feel like that you could write a book about almost every single season of Survivor. And that's kind of like what the Evolution Strategy was. It was basically like, let's just go as deep as we can into one season of Survivor. But then how do you, in a limited page count, tell the 50... And you could go chronologically, but we ended up trying to write a series of essays. And the thing that I was really happy that the book publisher let us do was that they allowed me to be somewhat autobiographical. And so I think that the book tells the history of Survivor and the story of Survivor against the backdrop of my experience over these last 26 years. And I think that makes a lot of narrative sense because you have been part of that, the Survivor experience, you know, from the beginning.

from you watching the first season, for being on one of the early classic airs of the show, and all through your podcasting experience and everything. That makes a ton of sense. I think one thing I liked, especially about the book, is you talked about all these different topics. You could have gone chronologically. But there's like a chapter on, so you want to know how to win Survivor, right? There's a chapter on that. There are chapters that are about the evolution of the show itself and Jeff itself. So you can kind of go back to each individual sections like that. Now one thing I did find, amazing to think about. I was reading this. And you talked about how when the show first came out,

that the audience felt well, felt qualified to judge the people on the show, how you should win the show. And in a weird way, you're running a podcast where you are talking, you and Stephen are talking about the show. So how does that sort of like permeate your experience with the talk about show? Yeah. So I think that part of the appeal of reality television is that we all can see ourselves in the characters that are on the show. And because that these are just people who are plucked from all walks of life, especially in the beginning, then we all feel like that we like, oh, if I was there, I would do this or I know, like, I would tell this person this, or I would do this. I think that the interesting thing that's happened over the evolution of the show

is that now we don't just do that talking about the show or talking about the players. We also are all sort of like executives that also do this about the show of like, yeah, that person should have done that movie. But also they should have merged earlier and then they couldn't have to do that twist. And so it's really because the fans are so smart now

about the show and so well informed that it's not just. about the players. It's like every aspect of the show, every survivor fan feels like a lot of agency over the whole franchise. You mentioned this. It made me think that like when someone has been doing this job for, it has a great amount of experience in it, I find that people start to recognize patterns. Like, we all can get caught in the ebb and flow of any one season, you know, this twist, that twist. But when you've been around for a bit doing it, you start to see like overall patterns and how people respond to things. Like, have you found

like, oh, yes, this is this new, this way audience is responding. It's, you know, this is just like what people did 10 years ago. Are those those kind of lessons happened to you? So I think that one of the things that's been really fun to track over the course of the show, and it really, it's been great to have season 50 airing at the same time, because I think that it's played out so much in real time is the evolution of heroes and villains on the show. And there's been these two tracks of the heroes and the villains.

Now, I think that the villain one is the one that has gotten more exposure over the last couple of years, where Jeff has famously told myself and Mike Bloom that, hey, we're not casting villains anymore. And I think that that really, they're not looking for just out and out scoundrels to come in, the Johnny Fairplays and the Russell Hanses. And the villains on Survivor are sort of in the form of like a cue who's sort of chaotic, but not in a Rick Devin's chaotic way, sort of like, I'm chaotic and I don't really care who it hurts, my chaotic nature. That's what a good villain looks like on Survivor now.

But I think it's been the way that Survivor depicts its heroes that I think has been really interesting to talk about. And it's one of the things that we get into in the book where the hero in the old sense of Survivor was like, starting with like the Rudy or the Colby and sort of like it was the guy who was tough cowboy military uh the person who was going to be doing all of the right things your tom westman's these are the heroes of the early days of survivor and that goes through into uh the you know to the late teens But then after Russell, Russell becomes like the first anti-hero. And Russell, I just said he was a villain. But he starts as an anti-hero where he is somebody who is bringing this hardworking, like, ethic to, without ethics.

Like, he's fully formed on day one. He's burning Jason socks. But he's also like out in the rain, like, I love this. And people love people love. when he didn't win in Survivor Samoa, they started, like, there was a website, Russell got, I think he started it, the RussellGott'stree.com, and, you know, and, and, eventually he starts to lose it

by the end of Heroes versus Villains. I think he's still the fan favorite in Heroes versus Villains. And then he ultimately, you know, goes further and further out. And then Tony kind of perfects the Russell formula. But there's this idea of looking for the idol is also part of what makes you the hero. And, you know, we have with Mike Holloway, somebody else who's sort of like on the outs, but is also trying to scrape his way back into the game. Ben Dreebergen, you know, the titular hero of Heroes versus Healers versus Huff.

And obviously Rick Devons 1.0. So there starts to have this idea of that looking for the idol and never giving up. Now that's how you do it on Survivor. And in the ultimately into the new era, like I think that also, you know, Jeremy adds to it with being part of like the ultimate family man. And even like when we talk about the prize of Survivor, you know, Jeff will really only say that the prize is the experience of Survivor. It's not actually. the money. But in a case like Jesse Lopez, you have somebody who did talk about the money, but it was in the context of I'm doing this for my family. And so that's really the only time you ever hear about that. But in season 50 that you have, and you were there with, I think so, yes.

Joe and Rick Devons. And I think that they're so, because Joe and Rick Devons, that to me, they have so much in common. They're both great dads, their family men. They are so complimentary about everybody that they're around, that they have a lot in common. But you have saw, they did not get along. And Joe, in his season 48 run, was really the depicted as, you know, back to that throwback of the old school survivor hero, the provider, the person who's there for Eva, the person who wants to take care of everybody. He has the ultimate hero job on Survivor, the firefighter, like Jeremy and Tom Westman and Keith Nail. And so there he is. And he comes back in this season.

And he's really kind of depicted as, yeah, I just had Brennan Lee Mulligan on the podcast. He called Rick Devons Bugs Bunny. But really, I'm going to call Rick Devons the roadrunner to Joe's Wiley Coyote. Meant. And that's really what the dynamic was between them. And Joe was sort of depicted, not necessarily as a villain, but that Rick Devons was put up on a pedestal by Survivor. This is the way.

This is your new survivor hero of the guy who is going to flip that coin, the guy who's going to take the big swing. And Joe is kind of left in the dust of, like, like, hey, you know, you're not the new hotness. You're not where we want to go. And I do think that when we talk about where Survivor is headed, I think that Survivor wants to see many more Rick Devon's clones come into attack. Attack of the Rick Devon's clones.

Idol. A tribal council would be just littered with idols. And I think that's something that Jeff said this week, I think was interesting, where he talked about the FYC event. that you were at. And he talked about how the game is impossible. It's impossible to win this game. We throw so much at you.

You'll never see anything coming. There's no way. It's a miracle that anybody wins. And so why not? Take big swings. Well, I, of course, won't question Jeff's math. That wouldn't be in my character. Let's talk a bit about Jeff.

Because you have an entire chapter in your book about Jeff and the evolution of Jeff. Boy, we got to update the book. Can we do a reprint? Does anybody at horns and nobles know? So, I mean, so you talk about the evolution of Jeff through all these stages through baby Jeff or teenage Jeff, golden age Jeff, et cetera. I mean, you can talk, I of course want to hear

your take maybe to the audience about Jeff's evolution, but I also want to point out something I've always noticed about you. I didn't put it together until I was prepping for this. I see a lot of similarities between you and Jeff, actually. And like you both have a really good-hearted ambition about you. Like, Jeff is super ambitious about his show, work super hard. You were super ambitious about all your endeavors. You work super hard.

And you're always looking for what is the next thing. You're not going to stand still because you want to make sure it's good. So like, you know, talk about Jeff. But, you know, if you find yourself in Jeff in any way or tell me I'm wrong, I'm curious to hear it. I don't think that you're wrong. I do take that as a compliment. I think that where, Jeff's like work. tirelessly on Survivor.

And I do say in the book about how that I don't think anybody else could have been at the helm of Survivor for 26 years and kept it as incredible as it's been in terms of just not running it into the ground at any point. Like it is not easy to basically run this franchise for 26 years. And I think that there's many times that myself and And I don't want to put words in your mouth or the people, everybody in this room, that we have lots of things we disagree with about Jeff from Survivor. But I don't think that anything that he does is from a place of, hey, I think this is a bad idea, but I'm going to do it anyway. Like, I think that the ideas that he has, I think he really does believe that this is the best idea for the show.

And so he has a passion for the show, which is really incredible for him to keep that. passion for this thing that we all love for 26 years. And I do feel this way, but I wish that all of the caretakers of our institutions cared as deeply about the things that they watch over as Jeff does about Survivor. And just us Survivor players and between us, and there's a few more here and also in the grove, that we have unique relationships. with Jeff. And I think it's not unlike the relationship that a father might have with a very large dysfunctional family. And I think that there are times, and I'm sure that you certainly

have experienced this, when you have been in Father's Good Graces. And it's wonderful. And you're in the son. And I bet there had been moments where you felt like that, oh, maybe does Father not not like me as well? Have I fallen out of favor? Am I out of the will? Yeah, I can relate to this in a lot of ways. Some all aside, one thing I remember you described when you were talking about Survivor the Amazon, how your relationship with Jeff on Amazon was not unlike Jerry Seinfeld and Newman. Yeah, it just, I thought that that was actually inspiring to me for 50, but I want to make it about me. But that was really, I remember that vividly.

I mean, but I think that, I mean, on top of, you know, writing the book, I mean, you clearly, you know, I can't imagine. I got to say when I was reading through, I thought it was like, I knew all these things. I've listened to your podcast for so many, these hours. But occasionally, things pop out. You found quotes from every, like, from people from, like, going back, like, 20, you know, 20, 25 years from all these people. So you really dug deep into the archive. Like, you're digging into the archive, you and you and your co-writer.

You know, would anything surprise you when you're doing your research? It's like, actually, I forgot about this whole thing. You know, you mentioned Alex. Let's have Alex come out. Alex Kovinsky is the co-writer of this book. This book could not exist without Alex and all of his incredible work trying to wrangle me and working around my podcast schedule. We probably spent hundreds of hours on the phone in the course of a year

talking about all the things to write the book. And Alex really did a lot of the... deep dives into the archives to find the relevant quotes to pull for the book. And, you know, we gave him full access to the RHAP archives going back to 2010, many things that we've pulled down because it's like, God knows what anybody was talking about in 2011. You found quotes for me. I forgot I said. I was a surprise. It was good. So, and by the way, yeah, what's up? I just want to quickly, yeah.

Yeah, please, Alex, please, go ahead. Just to add to this real quick, I turned up. Yesterday I got to go to the finale, I met a lot of people, Tina Wesson. It was very exciting to meet her. I chatted with her, talking about the book, and I was talking about the long process of pulling quotes.

And she was like, what did you pull for me? And I said, you mentioned you wanted to go to Applebee's, and I thought that'd be fun for a certain section of Survivor History. She was like, that's it? It's so funny because the reaction from, the other 749 players. When they've read the book, they tend to say,

wait, that's it about me? So in that way, though, I feel like I can relate to Jeff in some ways where, you know, I do, you know, have to, you know, I think that everybody's like, well, I'm a really important part of Survivor history. Why aren't I in the book? Why aren't I in the book more?

Yeah, it's got to be tough for Jeff. and those people but I think you'll get through it. Why did I get purpled in the book? And the book, it goes beyond the show. It even goes to your, of course, your story with the show, your origins all the way through now. And you talk about it in detailed book.

But I do want to dive into something that I wanted to get more about. Like, I think it was around 2014 when he did the patron group, which, thank you, patrons, by the way. Thank you. So, and, uh, I doubly thank you. That at some point you went full time.

Yeah. Right? For five. Full tilt. Full time. What, full time? What was that, what was that decision like? What was that conversation like at home?

You're like, I'm going to go full time on a podcast. So I started the podcast in 2010 and I had no job. I was completely unemployed. I was, I guess you could call me, uh, no collar at that time. And I started out during Heroes versus Villains. And then it was like starting to just like gradually like gain some momentum. And I was like on and off employed for the first couple of years of the podcast. And so I had been working with these producers that I worked with from when I first moved to Los Angeles.

And they had started and ended a few different companies. And for like the second or third time, a company. they started that I was working at was basically going under. And so in December of 2013, I was basically let go from the job that I had. And I really, I felt like a loser in that I, you know, Nicole and I had been married a couple of years, but my older son, Dominic, was just born. And I really felt like, like, well, like, what, like, man, like, I'm in my 30s, like, I have no job. no job like I have a kid like what I'm gonna do and I but I also felt like that the podcast had been about three and a half years old almost four and I couldn't stop doing it and I was kind of like

unemployable I couldn't like get a new job and then also oh yeah by the way I need off on this night and this morning so I could do exit interviews and so I had said to Nicole I wanted to like let me take a run at this. And Nicole has always been incredibly supportive of, you know, like a Rick Devons type. Take big swings. You know, she's never said, is this a good idea? Maybe about some of the podcasts that I've done. Why are you doing this?

But in terms of the big things, she's always been like, yeah, go for it. Let's do this. And that was when I was in a very early adopter on Patreon. I had been contacted by somebody on Patreon who happened to be a listener of the Big Brother podcast the summer before. And so I ended up starting this thing. And I was very sheepish to start the Patreon. But people said, hey, we love this thing that you do. We don't want to see it go away.

We're very happy to support it. But at that point that we started it, it was the first time that we really, because we had this Facebook group, that we were able to bring people together. So in addition to there were so many people that they loved Survivor, but they had nobody to talk to about it and they listened to the podcast. But now that there were so many people that not only did they love Survivor, they listened to the podcast, but now they knew each other. And that was really like the jumping off point where we just had like this like white hot like nucleus of like the people who were the most passionate about this thing and this podcast. And now they were all connected and bouncing off of each other. And it's been amazing to watch over a decade where there had been so many friendships and relationships and marriages and probably like a, I don't know, hookups. I don't know about all of them.

I don't ask and they don't always tell. But sometimes like people will say like, oh yeah, hey, we've been together for two years. Like, really? I didn't even know. But it's been really just magical to watch what's blossomed out of that. And it's just like taken on this incredible life of its own. Well, so I think we're hitting closer to the end of the half hour here. And I won't take up, you know, five and a half hours of your time this time.

But soon? But soon. Oh, boy. Got a lot to say, my friend. Anyway. And it'll be over the course of seven different. one-hour podcast. We might have to label, like,

Dr. Hubicki, the recap's Love Island, episode nine. I think what we do is you have Gabby calling on for a podcast. I'm just a special guest for an hour. Oh, look us here. So, again, one of the many things I admire about you is that, like, you clearly have this passion and you made this happen.

Like, you really, like, you know, there is, when you go to school, no one teaches you how to do this stuff. You know, you had to invent this. It wasn't invented when I went to school. So you have to pick this stuff up. And I have such an admiration for all that you've been able to accomplish. And I know it wasn't easy getting there.

And so, but like you have this group of people who hear, many of whom probably have all kinds of passions. The best people. The best people. I mean, like, what advice would you give the people in the audience that based upon your experience, that's a good way to really just drive at their passions? So if there's something that you feel like you have an idea, I would say to just start and do it, because I think that sometimes we wait to find the perfect time to do something, and you should just be starting it and doing it, and you will learn from the mistakes that you make.

And I know in the case of a podcast or a YouTube channel, hopefully the worst video or podcast you make is going to be the first one that you put out there. But if you just get started, then hopefully a year from now you could look back. Oh, my God, look how bad I was when I started. And I think that that's like anything. I think that we just need to get out of our own way and just start doing the things that we want to try. and maybe we won't even like them, but you're not going to know. Maybe it takes like three or four things that you don't even know that you're going to dislike before you get to the one thing that you are going to like.

And I love to tell people, I did not record one episode of Rob as a podcast until I think I was 31 years old. So this has been like a whole second act in my life where it's only, been 16 of my years that I've been doing this. Wow. Wow, that's an incredible message. I want to thank you very much for this. Did I quickly just tell a relevant origin story? Please. Please do. Because I think it's relevant ultimately to your story in Survivor 50. And I think that it's, I'm kicking myself that I didn't bring the prop here. But, and let me bring Josh Wiggler, because he's part of this also. But my origin story with Christian Hubicki, I never met him before, but I received, much like Christian received in season 50, a letter that I had to read, not in front of everybody, but just to myself.

And Josh, can you tell the story. How did I get this letter? So it was, when was David, when were you filming David first? 2018. 2018. On a very rainy day in Fiji. I'm sitting across from Christian Hubicki, interviewing him for the first time. Big Survivor nerd.

I didn't get it at first, but as we spoke more, it came out that you were really into the show. And at one point, I had like a camera bag. and I think it fell. What? Something fell. So you had to do something with your camera and, and so you went under the table and your camera bag was left on the table for a brief period of time. And boy, that if we only knew that you would have a long future of Survivor setting up

pratfalls and planting things, you were just getting started. Yeah, that was my prototype. Yeah. So I had to bet. So you put up. a letter in the back. And as Christian was, like, walking away, he's like, oh, I think he, I think something fell out out of your bag.

You might want to just like check your bag. Homer. And I'm sorry, you've never read before, but hey. Oh, there was a letter for me, and the inside of letter for me was a letter for Rob. And it was just like idols with an idols paste. It was a nesting doll of letters. Yeah. And so I got a letter from Christian before I ever met him.

And I still have that in my studio. Yeah, thank you. I just had to thank you and Josh. Again, you all were such a big part of me and Emily's just, you know, just our casual hobby life. And I just had to thank you all somehow. And the passion, again, comes through with everything you do. So again, thank you so much, Rob.

Let's do some Q&A. Let's give a round of applause. The letter you wrote much nicer than the letter Jimmy Fallon wrote to you. Hey, it's Christian Hewbick. It's that. It's okay. I got footage of Jimmy Fallon apologizing to my wife on the phone. So I got up with hand.

All right, how is our Q&A going to work? Am I just, okay, no microphone's calling people? Okay. Yeah, okay. We'll make sure you can hear the question though. Yes. You can stand. Yeah.

Hi, I'm Sarah. No age. Thank you. No age. Thank you so much for coming back to L.A. and doing this. and for writing a book because I'm a big book nerd. And all I want is Survivor Books. And this year was like so many Survivor Books.

And since Christian brought it up, and since Josh is here, and since I brought my seven-year-old who I listened to the Evolution of Strategy while I was pregnant and re-watching the show, are you ever going to do the next 20 years of the evolution of... The next 20 years of the Evolution Strategy, will it come back? Well, okay. And I think we have a microphone for the questions also. So I think Sam is going to run around.

Well, listen, like, there's so much Aubrey to talk about in the 30s into the 50s. There wouldn't be the time. But I just feel like that at the time that we did it, not to speak for Josh, that I think it was very novel to go back and watch old seasons of Survivor. Nobody really was doing that. And now I just think it's so commonplace for people to go back and watch these old seasons of Survivor and do content around. them, especially the stuff that we already did content in the real time of it. So I just feel like that, I won't say, I'll never say never,

but I just don't feel like it's the best use of everybody's time to go back and do that now. I do think though, and I was telling Sam about this earlier today, I had an idea that Sam Moore did not like at all, which usually means I'm really onto something. And so there may be some survival rewatching the summer. Ooh.

Well, and to tide you over for the 10 seasons after 30, you did during the pandemic, the 40 season rewatch and all this place. That can tie you over in the meantime. Yes. You have any question right there? Hello. Oh. Hold on, hold on.

That's right. Someone's right behind you. Yes. Congratulations on the book and the success, Rob. Thank you. And congratulations on 50, on the 50th season, Christian. Thank you. You had a great relationship.

with Devons this season, you was your Captain Kirk to your Mr. Spock. Indeed. I think we're all home to see Rob on our television screens again at some point. I was wondering if you could cast a Captain Kirk for Rob when he plays again, maybe a female, a male, maybe one of each. Who do you think would make a good Captain Kirk for Rob? Wait, who am I? A spot? Is it a spot?

Was you a spot? See, I think I'm McCoy, if any, I think I'm McCoy, if any. Damn it, Jim, I'm a podcaster. Right, right, yeah. I mean, like, really, the chemistry is really just something for, like, you just kind of got to feel it in the moment. I mean, Rick and Evans and I had never met when we were out there. I mean, so, like, but, like, you've met a lot of people all through your podcasting,

a few, I dare say. Like, of all the people you've met in, like, the podcasting, like, or was there somebody you're like, you know what? On the island, we would just be awesome together. You know, it's, I really, I do, I love people. Everyone. No, but I feel like that, you know, I'm certainly, I feel like when I went to go to the traders, I felt like that Tiffany was somebody that I felt like that I could really play with.

I love somebody like that who thinks about the game like me. I love the crazy people too. I love the characters. Like, I, I enjoyed being around so many of them. Some I didn't enjoy being around. But I really, like, you know, like, I think about, like, yeah, like me and Abby Maria. Like, that would be great, right? I like big characters, and I cannot lie.

That's just, I was going to say something, but next question instead. Next question. Okay. My question is for Rob. I'm currently watching your season, like, at the Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

What words do you have to say to Jenna Maraska for voting you off the island just before the finale? Oh, I mean, that's ancient history. Listen, you know what? I feel like that with the perspective of time, and I was never even really that bummed out about, losing the Amazon. Any sort of survivor trauma I have is from the all-star process. But no, I mean, it was so long ago, and my life has gone on this amazing trajectory since then. And I probably, there was a point when I probably would have said I would have done anything to change it. And now, like, the way that my life has unfolded, it's like I would do anything

to make sure it stays the same. And because if you change that part of me, Everything changes, and, like, none of this happens. And so I really, I've never had any issue with Jenna for making the right decision for her. And, like, you know, I have everything worked out in a very satisfactory way for me with Survivor. Yeah, let me just follow up on that in that, like, I feel so similarly about, like, yes, of course when you're out there, you're doing your best to win. This is your shot. You swing for the fences. But once your torch is snuffed, you've got to realize there are many ways to win Survivor

that don't actually involve getting the million dollar check. And you're an example of a person I think of who has won from this experience. And people need to remember that. I mean, there's many opportunities that can come after because of the show when you make it happen for yourself. I said to Rizzo this morning that not to make it all about me, but I said, you know, I feel like, because I do see a lot of myself in, you know, the 24-year-old me in the R-I-Z, G-O-D, Riz God. T-N. Yeah.

And I said, like, hey, this finale, like, hey, you feel like that you thought you had a pretty good thing going. But, like, you're me and Jonathan was Matthew and Joe is Butch and Aubrey's Jenna. She wins the last challenge? There's nothing you can do. And he'd appreciate all the nuances of that reference. He's very well read up on the Mr. Source material. Yeah. Other questions.

I took the issue with Jeff thinking the celebrities first at the opening of the show and not the fans. So I was curious what you guys both thought about that. This is Hollywood, baby. That's what we have to do. You know, I talk about it in the book that Jeff really does take what the most famous fans of Survivor.

And again, is that ground not a fan? Did they lie? And they just didn't say which fans is in the hands of? But Billy I was a huge fan. Yeah. Listen, you know, I really look at it as that Survivor is trying to, Jeff is always trying to expand the tent. And I think that probably for better or for worse, and probably, I mean, probably for worse, I think they feel like, and I don't know how everybody feels, I think that they feel like, hey, we got these people. How do we get more people?

How do we stop losing people from Survivor? we'll get Zach Brown to tell everybody if let's get Billy Elish then she'll tell all of her fans she's famous she'll tell all of her fans Mr. Beast has millions and millions of views like he'll tell his audience to watch

and more people will find Survivor and I bet that happened a little well the Zach Brown episode was a highly rated episode of the show it's actually a bump in the race with Zach everyone I assume it's because I pulled up the 3-2-1 on Mike White I thought that was the reason But also, but who's bragging?

But, I mean, also, like, Nikki Glazer, huge fan. But, like, she's actually a fairly recent fan. And that could bring a new audience when it came to Netflix, a huge new audience. So I think that's something too broadening the pool. Yeah. I just think that, you know, I know how everybody here feels. And I just, like, I just feel like that I am in the last,

couple of weeks I have met so many fans of like you know thousands of people over the last couple of weeks who love Survivor and I just feel like that you Jeff used to talk about the people I talked to the people on the streets but I just don't know if Jeff talked to the same people that I talked to you got you got to be on the same street at some point yeah hi um Ron my question is about is it difficult as a writer and as a podcaster commentator to maintain objectivity or do you embrace the subjectivity when it comes to like the community runs deep and you have your survivor family if your RHawk family some of them are starting to pop up on these shows does is it difficult to sort

of strike that line how do you how do you handle it yeah that is a really great question and it is really hard because they I do I try to be as objective as possible but I feel like that that's not always what the audience wants. There are people that, for whatever reasons, that large segments of the audience are very much out on, and they're not really looking for you to be objective about certain people. I'll tell you, the thing I struggle with is when people who are my friends go on the show. And so in the instance of, say, like Christian, who I adore, he goes on Survivor 50.

Now, how do I talk about Survivor and not have it be just because I know when I listen to other things, I don't like it when somebody's just a total homer of like, okay, this is my friend that I'm not saying anything bad about my friend. And even if my friend does something that's, and not to say that you did, like, if my friend does something that I don't agree with, it was, it was great because if my friend did it and I'm not going to ever, you know, criticize the game that my friend did. Because I feel like as a listener, I'm like, okay, well, now I can't take you seriously. So that's something that I feel like I've always struggled with. And I feel like at times, and I'm not talking about Christian, but in like the many people that I've known that have gone on the shows, where I kind of feel like that people have felt like, hey, you didn't support me enough while I was on the show. And I think I struggle with that a lot.

And I struggle with the person who really, that, you know, how do you be fair to people that the audience is like, okay, we don't, like, we hate this person. Well, well, and Rob, to be clear, theoretically, that's on us to not listen. I mean, you know, it's actually possible for us to not listen to people talk about us, even though apparently it is impossible. But the, but also, like, I mean, I feel this too, like, I've been a guest on your pocket. Thank you for having me all these times. And I found that there were times, like, I'm just talking and Kibbitt Singh about whatever, and I'll get a message for something like, oh, I love that nice thing you said about me for like five seconds about me on my season.

I'm like, oh my God, people are listening. And if I, like, and I've heard from people who are like, I don't think they were, Christian was supportive enough of me. I'm like, oh my goodness, it's like I can do PR at the same time. But you really, you have to maintain the credibility of what you're talking about. Otherwise, you're just going to poison your well. It was easier in the early days of the podcast. where I was like, nobody's listening.

We can say what we want, we can say how we feel, and it was fine. Now bad news travels fast. And if you say anything that's remotely negative of a person, it finds them. And sometimes the algorithm finds them of like, okay, you're you. This is about you. You're going to want to see this. So it really is a challenge. And I do feel like that I learned a good lesson from our mutual friend Mike White.

Close friend. and a friend of the podcast. And we, you know, I felt like, okay, well, you know, he's really famous. Like, he's not listening to what. And I was, like, taking cheap shots. And I really think that part of it was like, I felt like, okay, this is, like, Jeff's friend who's on the show. He doesn't even really, like, he's only there because he's Jeff's friend. And, like, you know, and I would, we don't have to revisit why.

But he was right of, like, you know. And you're saying things about me that you wouldn't say about somebody else. And really, I felt like, okay, well, he's, he's up here. He's not listening to what we're talking about on the podcast. And I really do try to do it like, and I use this analogy to say, like a roast. Maybe Nikki Glazer could give me, not like the Kevin Hart roast, okay? That was out of control. But like, where, like an old school roast, like you would say things, but the person was in the room.

And that sort of keeps you in check of you can never. You never want to say anything that, like, if this person hears this, I'm going to be mortified. And so I always am sort of like acting like, okay, the person I'm talking about is potentially going to hear this. Unless it's on the patron. And then it's like, okay, well, now they're a patron. So now I feel like, okay, they're cool. Yes. Hi.

I have a question. Yes. I want to know your top three favorite seasons of Survivor of All Time, just based on, like, entertainment and, like, the story. story being told. Well, you know, rankings are arbitrary, reductive. The story being told throughout the season. So I'm just trying to think of the seasons that have like a really great arc. I think that San Juan del Sur,

people love it. But in terms of like a single player's story arc, what do you think? Oh, I mean, it's hard to, for me, it was Tony and Kagayan just winning. Like, that's just, it's, maybe just the implausibility of the story at the time. That just really, that's one of the things that, like, maybe find, like, reach out for supplementary materials and found your podcast. I was like, Tony, who's talking about this? There's got to be interviews of people. I think you interviewed Spencer on your podcast.

I think that's how I found you. And it's, sorry, I'm rhymed, right. So, apologies. So, but, like, there's something beautiful about how Tony. just was just this crazy chaotic antics guy. It's hard to even say there was a story to him. He was just him. He was a force of nature.

And somehow he won. That was like unheard of at the time. And let me get the number three answer. Mike Bloom, what's the answer? Micronesia. Micronesia. Sam Moore has the microphone. All right.

And then go to Josh Kettle's next. I know it's part of this process that you did a ultimate rights of passage honoring all the survivors. I was just wondering if you can name like one or two survivors that the fans are maybe casting and Jeff might have forgotten about that you would like the highlight and you would love to see. Yeah, so we had done, we took this exercise on that we did for the pre-order people, the

people that helped get us onto the New York Times bestseller list. Thank you so much. As a reward, we took on the task of the ultimate rights of passage and for months they've been working on the list of all 751 survivor players. And so... But who's counting? Who's counting? Yeah, so how many?

And we don't even know how many are on 51. But who should come back? Is the one-time player that hasn't come back yet that you'd love to see on the open era? The one-time player that should have come back? Well, I feel like Sean Rector is an easy one. That they should have brought him back. I feel like, you know, Jesse and Carolyn, I think both, were easy ads from the new era.

And how about Davey? I was going to say Davey. I mean, I know I'm biased, but honestly, that dude would tear up the island if you were out there. I mean, when he had his dalliance with almost being on traitors, he had all these ideas like, dude, I'm going to hide it at the pool table and listen to the conversation to my spy shack. Yeah, yeah.

And how about Homer and Marianne? Yeah. Okay, Omer has a question. I didn't hear what the previous question was, so that was probably who's the worst person to lie. I have a question, so nobody knew you to be a book author, but is it Butch Lachley that made you believe in yourself? You know what? He had a banner that really like changed the way I looked at things. Yeah. Which then burned down.

Yeah. Hi, Rob, hey Christian. I, well, Rob, I have to say, just on behalf of many people I know that have this story, but just I love, I fell in love with a survivor, but what R&JB has given me is much beyond the show. And I'm going to discuss. I was talking about the episode and I met with some of my best friends had some of my greatest memories that would not have happened without the podcast.

Thank you so much, Josh. And for you, I'm going to give you Mr. Beast hands and a Jonathan bow. Thank you so much. And you're always so fun to talk to about Survivor. And your passion for the game always shines through. And that's one of the things that's so cool for me is that there's so many people that just are so passionate about this thing. It gets me more excited about this thing.

So it really is like this incredible cycle, that flywheel that just keeps everything going and just keeps making this more fun for me. Well, thank you, Rob. Thank you, Christian, as well, for what you brought this season. My question, actually, so if I can funnel some of this passion your way, again, one more time, is I think Christian was, I've always looked at him as the person who ushered in the era of agency being this big topic in juries voting. Now, I think last night, I think he might have ushered in a second era. So I'd love for you to answer if, I wonder if this is going to be. going to be now the era of juries caring about narrative warfare.

Yeah. This is the second wave that Christian has ushered into jury. So I think, this is great. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it in those certain terms. There's a chapter in the book. Chapter 7 is called Shred Your Survivor Resume. And it's really about the thing that Christian is talking about on the actual show.

And it's something. It's something that I give credit to always Sophie Clark, who I think it was actually during David versus Goliath. She talked about all this talk about the resume, forget it. It's not about a resume. It's about a story. And then now, I don't know if it had ever been said as clearly on the actual show as it was until you brought it up at the Final Travel Council.

And now in Jeff's mind, you get all the credit. I'll take it. You know, I take out the credit where I can get. No, but I mean, that's really what I just, you know, just to expound on that a bit. I mean, that's where I noticed. Honestly, I learned that in a weird way from Mike White, actually, after my first season. And you talked about it with Mike in the preseason. Yeah, the preseason.

It's just that, like, that people guide their thinking based upon stories. And the mere fact that we're on television being captured by cameras talking to producers who are trying to get us to answer questions that will fill in a story, our minds are built for that in general as human. beings, but especially on the show. So that's, I always thought that was interesting framing. And, you know, if you're a good writer, you tend to be pretty good at the game. And Aubrey, I think, did a really incredible job with that in season 50. And I had some really great interviews. Everybody was a lot more lucid that I would have thought after like being asleep for like

an hour yesterday. But Aubrey talked about that. And she talked about how she had read a lot of things that that helped her and a lot about the meta game. And she talked about a marketing book that she had read. And really, there was another person that she got this from, I think she was talking about from a Bachelor podcast. But basically from a marketing perspective of your real audience as a player,

isn't the people at home, it's the other players are your audience. And she felt like that she really had that as something that was top of mind for her, especially when it came to the jury. One more. Sam Moore's going to pick the best question. Well, you have the microphone. I'm going to hear it.

Yes. My question is, I know that casting has the question of what survivor player reminds you of yourself the most. So I kind of want to flip that. What do you guys think is your best characteristic that you want other people to recognize themselves you with. Bye. Okay.

So I would love for somebody to play in Cyber 51 and say that they want to be so funny like Rob Cessorino. Why do people always think about it? He's, oh, he's a mastermind.

Why do they have to always talk about that? Why can't it be like, oh my God, he's so funny. He's the funniest podcaster. His book is so funny. Always mastermind, never funny. What about good-looking?

How about that? Trying to follow that. I mean, for one thing that I'm frankly most proud of from the show, from both times I played, is that, you know, once you're out, the game is no longer yours. It is the people left in the game. And now, like, you know, I've got to pretty much be, at least on the jury both times.

And so I got to help make a decisionist who wins. And I think it's really important. Again, if I were in charge of the show, there'd be a lot less drama because I want people to be good sportsmen. But I think I would like it if some people said, I like that Christian was a good sportsman. Like, they tried to be fair to everyone. And I think that that, and I know people love the fighting. I get it.

You know, you can have your show. I just want my little bit of the show is people who are like, yes, let's just assess it subjectively. Be fair and congratulate everyone at the end. I know people were saying that there was a kid that had a question. Yeah, they didn't talk to, oh, I know this guy. Come here, come here. Okay. We didn't talk to a kid during the Survivor.

They brought the Survivor finale back. They didn't talk to any kids? Yeah. Hey guys. Hello. So I know there were some mixed feelings of Mr. Beast being on Survivor. What was your guy's opinions of him being on Survivor? Did you know who Mr. Beast was prior to?

to him showing up. My father treats sick kids, so he hears all about Mr. Beats. Yeah. They tell him all about it. So I was, I was, I just, you can see my reaction when he walks out, when he's about to walk out of tribal. They're like, they start talking about Mr. Beast. Like Mr. Beast came here, you can see my live reaction,

which was like, what? What? I was like, Mr. Beast is this? And, uh, in part it was awkward because I, uh, I was called about Beast game season two and I lied to them that I couldn't go. And then Mr. Beast was right there. I'm like, this is awkward.

Were you lying? Like, it seems like you were telling the truth. A small way, I was. But, like, I remember thinking the whole thing happening, I'm like, I'm rooting for Rick. He flips the coin, it's awesome. In the back of my head, I'm thinking, like, the Dyer fans are going to hate this. This is a 50-50 coin flip for the game. They're going to hate this.

But it turns out it was very well received. Yeah. I think that, ultimately, especially the way that it played, I think it could have gone. Oh, it could have been really bad. He could have gone the other way, and people would not have liked it as much. But I think that people are very results-oriented when it comes to all the difference with. There were so many people in the game they're answering questions.

Every question was about Mr. Beast, how great Mr. Beast was. I'm like, wow. Honestly, I think it helped Mr. Beast that Zach Brown went first, and people hated the Zach Brown thing so much. And then Genevieve got voted out with the Billy Island. I was like, what is Mr. Beast going to do to Survivor? And then he came and they were like, oh, that was fine.

That worked out. Well, the players thought he was going to offer bribes to leave the game. That's what they thought he were going to do. So they were apparently talking to each other about like what bribe they would accept. Did you have a number? What would you have taken?

Oh, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. Nice. All right. So now what happens now? What do we, yes. Okay, so if you, if you watch the, we've recorded this as a podcast. So if you, if you liked what you heard about this book.

You have a podcast? Yeah. You can check it out. Go to Rob has a book.com. You can order the book in hardcover. Or I have to say that people at Barnes & Noble aren't going to like this as much. But on the audiobook version, if you like listening to podcasts, I do as many impressions as I can in the audiobook. If you want to listen.

Some people, they get both, even. So you check it out. Rob has the book.com. Thank you, Dr. Christian Hibicki. I've been so honored to call you a friend for all this time. I look forward to many, many more. more podcast conversation in the future. But this was such a unique one to get to do here with you in person.

My pleasure. It's just to interview you for once, my friend. Thank you. Yeah.