RHAP: We Know Survivor - Drew Basile Recaps Survivor 48 Ep 8

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

This week, Rob Cesternino is joined by Drew Basile from Survivor 45 to discuss episode 8 of Survivor 48.

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You're all over the map. Well, yeah, we've got over 180 destinations to choose from. Saving on every single destination. Nice. Hurry, book at aircan Canada dot com or contact your travel agents. Conditions apply Air Canada. Nice travels. Coming to you live from my apartment. It's Rob has a podcast. And now here's the guy who couldn't be more excited about the person that he's matched up with today. I'm Rob Sester, Nina. Welcome everybody and welcome back to RHAP for a Thursday

chat and I'm so thrilled to have back here with me. I keep saying one of my favorite people to talk to, such a font of knowledge about so many different subjects, including Survivor, please welcome the great Drew Basile is here. Drew, how are you? Rob, I'm doing good. You're gonna make me blush. I am terrible with compliments. I, you know, if you insult me, that's fine. If you compliment me, I don't know what to do.

I collapse. All right, well, I'll work on some roasts here for you. Tastefully interspersed. I like that, Rob, it is great to be here. This is kind of a cathartic moment for me to be on the Rob Cestronino, Rob has a podcast show because I have so much, you know, I have so many thoughts about Survivor and they're all pent up and they can't escape and nobody wants to, nobody cares. And so

now I get to, you know, come and vent with you. It's like meeting a therapist. We do it twice a year. It's fabulous. I'm excited for the appointment. Get ready to vent. Okay. hopefully we will unburden you from all of your survivor takes here today. How are you doing? I'm doing good. So I'm actually just finishing up my masters at Oxford. You know, this is my last year here.

So I've got like two more months, a month and a half, which is scary, Rob. I don't know about you. I, you know, I don't like the tribe swap. I'm bad with change. So moving back to the U.S., starting my career, it's very uncertain. Dear viewers, if you work in media entertainment, please hire me. You know, it's all up in the air.

But yeah, so that's going on, obviously. What's your specialty? Like, what's your beat? My beat. So I work on, I work in literature, 20th century literature. And you know, there are a couple of ways to approach that. A hell of a century for literature. Great. It could be the best century for literature, if you ask me. Certainly not the 19th. Don't

trifle with that. But actually, it's funny you bring that up, Rob, because just recently I was asked at Oxford to give a paper on reality television, on Survivor, at this big conference, an English conference, and they reached out and they're like, hey, we know you did Survivor, we know you did Jeopardy, you wanna come and speak about the show? And so I wrote this little paper, I didn't know how big of a deal it was gonna be,

sometimes you get invited to speak and it's just like a little seminar room, but it was this huge auditorium. And I was up there with with Susie Dent, who, you know, in America, who knows who Susie Dent is? But in the UK, Susie Dent is like, you know, it's like the host. So I was pretty I was pretty.

What does she host? She hosts the show called like Countdown. I think it's embarrassing. I don't even remember. I just I just was up there with her. But but, you know, she's got like a million followers on Twitter. You know, this is like, so I was, which is how in my world, you know, you calibrate the relative importance in the media sphere. I've got like 2000. So, I mean, this is like a 50 X difference.

But yeah, 500 X even. So yeah, that was fun. Suffice to say my academic work, all kinds of twists and turns, you never know what I'm gonna be studying next. Well, can you share with us some of your findings from your paper? Yeah, I can.

Actually, I was thinking about putting it on Substack, but then I thought that like maybe some of the things I said, like CBS wouldn't love, you know? Maybe they'd be like, oh, is that, you know, that's what you think of us. But but just just in the gist, yeah, the elevator pitch would be that reality TV is kind of a funny, funny notion, because premised in reality TV is the idea that like, it's real, you know, but we recognize that it's an artificial environment. So in what ways? Well, it's real, because it's an experiment, that it's an artificial environment. So in what ways is it real? Well, it's real because it's an experiment and it's supposed to reflect the American cultural life.

And so one of the ways that Survivor does, and it's actually really relevant for Survivor 48, is that these days it's all about intelligence. When the show started, the intelligent players were the outcasts. They were the dorks, the nerds. They were getting stuffed into lockers. And as the kind of economy has shifted to reward the nerds, now the nerds rule survivor. I mean, David, David complains, and I think very lopsidedly, very clumsily, he's like, oh,

the strong people are the underdogs. And I think that's true in a way. Like the intelligent people control everything. They dominate the puzzles. They earn all the advantages. They dominate the puzzles. They earn all the advantages because the advantages are puzzles. And so for the conference, I talked about the

way that, you know, there are some ideological valuations of intelligence that are tied in the way the show operates these days. Yeah. I mean, well, what you are right. What a great segue to talk about where we're at in Survivor 48 and that David has really got craft this narrative about that. Hey, it's this is the season where the strong people

have banded together. And in the same way that you might see a alliance based on any number of things, this is the season that the hey, the strong people have gotten together and sorry if you're not part of the group. Yeah, I think he's right too. I think this is the season where you're going to have a core group of four or five people. You know, I doubt they keep David for much longer, but you know, at least four people that are just going to cruise to the end of the game. And it's not to say that these strong players are particularly good at Survivor because I think maybe two of the five are. But it's more so the resistance is so incompetent. The underdogs, they can't get their heads out of

the sand to rally some kind of defense. And I felt like one moment that was so frustrating for me or that was so representative was this last episode, you're doing the challenge. You're like choosing balls. You pick one ball, two ball. And Mitch, Mitch takes a ball and Shaheen is like, oh, thank you. Because like, you know, by taking only one,

Shaheen's not gonna get it. Well, Mitch realizes immediately that, oh, I accidentally just gave myself the red ball that Shaheen was supposed to get, you know, and that for me is the kind of like hand over foot, clumsiness that has defined the strategy of the season. I mean, what, Rob, I felt like the last couple seasons, they were so exciting, there were so many meta developments, there were so many fine tunings. And this season is like a

cudgel. I mean, what's your assessment of the strategy? Well, I do feel like that there was a pushback in the pre-season where it's like, hey, this is a season where that it's not the super fans, where Survivor 47 was probably that, where we had super fan on super fan on super fan. We're here, there's a lot of people, and people clamored for this.

They said, hey, we love that they're okay, get more recruit types. Not to say too many of these people were recruits, but people said, okay, well, we need some more diversity in sort of their survivor enthusiasm and fandom. And that seems to be what we have, but in true survivor fashion, people still are not happy. I know, the danger of something like Survivor 50

in the hands of the fans, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But the hands, the hands of the fans are slippery. They're buttery. You know, they can't hang on to anything. They don't know really, you know, what's going to work and what's not. And I mean, you know, survivor production isn't always, you know, has some errors in this discernment. But but yeah, we if you if you want a bunch of people who don't know how to play the game, then you have to be patient as they slowly figure out

how to play the game over a shortened 26 day format. So I mean, I think that the issue here is, and this is probably like a bigger issue, but it manifests in Survivor, is that in reality television, the audience always connects most with the disenfranchised, the people that are on the bottom, the underdogs. So in a season where more of the strategic masterminds

are sort of have banded together, people might be rooting for the challenge beast to be picked on at the bottom because they're not in power. And in the same way where if a bunch of the big, strong people have gotten together, people are going to be clamoring for the people who are on the bottom to get their act together and flip this thing over. That's just the nature of the beast.

People are absolutely rooting for the team that's losing. Absolutely. America loves an underdog. I always tell people this is the difference between America and the U.S. in America. When you get to the crossing walk, the cars stop for you. You can walk into the street and the cars stop. In Britain, the cars will run you down. They got the right away. I mean, that's the difference. We're a democracy. We're people first. Underdogs rule. Let's go the little guy. Britain, they've got a king. It's all its royalty. It's tradition. You wait for the car, it's bigger than you. And we don't operate that way.

So we like the little guy, especially when the little guy looks like a little guy when it's a nerd, then it makes an intuitive sense. But I will say in the defense of the season is that it didn't have to be this way. I felt like when I watched the River 48, it reminds me a lot of Ghost Island because in Ghost Island, prototypically, I think it's the prototypical example of this,

you had so many talented players go early. I mean, you just hemorrhaged strong competitors at the beginning of the game and you were left with kind of a skeleton crew. And similarly, when I look at the pre-merge of this season, I mean, Stephanie, Kevin, Thomas, all three of those could have been real gamers. Specifically Kevin, I think Kevin had the potential to be like a talent. Bianca, you know, Bianca really, I thought made a strategic blunder.

So I, you know, she's a little bit lower on the totem pole for me, but still, we, you know, we lost some top prospects early on. Yeah, absolutely. And do you think the narrative will shift? Do you think that we'll continue to see the players who are not in the strong six continue to be picked off? Or do you think that this thing will break in the middle? You know, I do I do think that probably this David, Mary,

Kyle, Camilla thing will come to a head. And I predict that David goes, but maybe Kyle and Camilla will lose. So I think that will happen. But I think once that tension within the group is resolved, I really do think this strong five is going to cruise to the end of the game. So I mean, narratively, that's unfortunate. And you can always tell what survivor wants you to think by who they focus on during tribal council, because tribal council is when you put your cards down on the table and where,

you know, power is acquired. And so the people they focus on are either the ones who are going to gain power or going to lose power. And so on this episode, it's off. It's always shots of Joe and Kyle and David. Nobody else. I mean, Chrissy's going home. We barely see her. It's always shots of Joe and Kyle and David nobody else. I mean Chrissy's going home We barely see her it's Joe Kyle and David So it lets you know that the season or at least the dynamics for a good while, you know

We're boiling down to the big boys. Yeah Drew I know you were a few weeks behind on the podcast or I'm sorry Probably very far behind on the podcast but on the show and you caught up in I'm sorry, probably very far behind on the podcast, but on the show, and you caught up in the last little bit to come on for this conversation, which I greatly appreciate. So you've sort of seen the last couple of shows in a very condensed period of time.

What's your thought on the last couple of weeks? Yeah, my thought on the last couple of weeks is that they're obviously slow TV, and that owes partly to the fact that the editing isn't quite as on point with 48 as it was on 47. I thought 47 was masterfully done, but it also stems to the fact that this early, early merged portion of the game is a natural doldrum in Modern Survivor. I mean, it's slow and I think more controversially, the finale is really slow and modern survivor. So you just have to cruise through these three episodes and hope things will improve. I see a lot of people complain about, oh, we're losing votes

that encourages more conservative gameplay. You know, we have to earn the jury that encourages more, you know, keeping your cards closer to the chest. And I'm not sure how long that will that will last. One thing I noticed that survivors doing more, and I haven't heard anyone discuss this, so maybe this is old news, but they give smaller groups to go on the reward. Have you noticed this? Like, well, four people get the reward, six people will get the reward. And so in the same way that the dynamic can change by a minority of people losing their vote, when a smaller group goes on the reward, it also gives, you know, like one or two people can determine the plan for the whole tribe on the

reward, whereas previously that plan never would have gotten off the ground if they had all gone together, if they had all been sitting at camp. Yeah. So survivors trying its best, I think, to alleviate this natural lull in the game, but we've been stuck in it. I think it's something that's interesting, and as somebody who lived through the new era,

I don't know how this impacts what's happening on the show, but at this point in the early merge, it's been three weeks of the show. But for the players that I think it's only been really, uh, I don't know if the last two episodes have been two days of the split tribal council. And then this episode where we broke off everybody into these groups and then we go to another tribal council is part of the issue here is just that like we're not there's not enough stuff happening in the course of

like 24 hours to fill out 90 minutes of you know that twists and turns. Totally. I mean that is a big part of it. And survivors tries to solve that by inserting these little side shows like oh we we're gonna put balls and hook them into the holes. And then you know, that that's like 10 minutes, okay, we've got that blocked. But I think that the real solution is that gee, if you put everyone together on the beach, all interacting, you know, things are gonna happen, content will be produced, you know, who knows where it comes

from, but content appears. And so yeah, I think that number one, you're pinched on time. But we've had in the new era, we've had some good merges. Like I felt like the survivor 45 merge episode was great. And maybe that's a little biased. But, you know, I felt like with Caleb, the shot in the dark. Yeah, the split tribal was exciting. But I mean, if you reconcile with the fact that you're dealing with less time due to budgetary reasons or whatever, you need to keep everyone together and make sure as much interaction is happening as possible, is my sense. Yeah. Well, let's talk about how this all came together, this vote where that you had

David and Mary saying that they felt like, okay, Camilla is the problem because she's with Shaheen and we can't trust Shaheen if Camilla is still in the game. Kyle obviously didn't like that. There was also that the threat of Chrissy, who had been throwing Joe's name out there at the previous tribal council. Suicidally. Yeah.

I mean, this was like classic Survivor though to me. I mean, I felt like that Christie has went like full Sierra Easton of, it's been a minute since we had the character who is getting convoked out, but it's like, hey, nobody here is playing. Come on, let's go. It never goes well for that person.

But I feel like it's been a minute since we had that. Yeah, I mean, because the obvious point is that, like, oh, people are playing. They're just not playing with me. Like, that's obviously that, you know, conclusion. So when they start to, you know, play with you, you're going home. Chrissy was so sad because she's like, if we were all just going to like sit around and not do anything, I could have just watched from home. I felt like Chrissy was like playing from home.

She's like, she's just narrating like she would to, her kids on the couch, like, why aren't they paying attention to the big guys? Telling it's the big guys. I thought it was just insane. Whereas Sierra Easton is at least trying to stir the pie. Chrissy was just like a stream of consciousness. It was very, it was hard to fathom.

I got sidetracked by that, but because it was just so it was just so crazy. What was the original question, Rob? So I just wanted to get your take on how this big group ultimately came to this decision, because it seemed as though Joe had to sort of broker. OK, here's what the group is going to do. Yeah, it does seem like that.

And there were a lot of there were a lot of weird miscommunications this episode. Like, maybe I'm crazy, Rob, but the last episode, didn't Camilla try and throw Shaheen under the bus to David? Yes. Didn't that just... And let's not forget that wasn't a week ago. That was like 12 hours ago. Yes.

So David, I mean, David has really flown the coo. But Mary didn't see that. So for whatever reason, Mary feels like that Shaheen and Camilla are really onto something. Ah, and Mary's calling the, you know, sometimes you get an idea and you're like, should I say this? But you ever meet a couple where it's like, you know,

the boyfriend just does whatever the girlfriend says. The girlfriend, you know, he's whipped, so to speak. You know, Mary is just calling the shots in this duo, you know, and David's like, oh, it's a six now. Mary and I are an item. It's a six, obviously. How could it not be? We're buying a house together. Yeah, I watched a RGP podcastP. podcast, Brian Cohen sent me a TikTok of like this girl's friends group that was like very dramatic of like one of the girls in the friends

group said like, hey, for dinner tonight, add another person to the reservation that my boyfriend is coming. And all the rest of the people in the friend group like, can you believe what she's doing? Can you believe I don't want to go to dinner with her friend? And they said, oh, I called the restaurant.

They said that they can't accommodate another person at the table. And the girl's like, no, I just called the restaurant. They said that they could. And so, yeah, David's just like adding his plus one. It really felt like that on the episode, honest to God. I don't know. David is an enigma.

It's hard to tell what he thinks and what's going on. As for the result, I agree with your assessment. Joe had to kind of just put his finger on the scale and say, this is the way we're going. I think Eva is kind of a loyal soldier, even though she's keeping this information secret. For now, I mean, supposedly. Yeah, supposedly. Litter cook, right? Yeah, supposedly. Yeah, supposedly. Cook, right? Yeah. Yeah. But

okay, I want to go back to in survivor 45. Of course, you were part of the maybe the most successful tribal alliance of the new era. Is that I mean, I mean, it didn't go. I think that's for you ultimately. But you know, you got it. Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm delusional or delulu, as they say. But I think Reba probably was the strongest. I think that's fair to say. And so did you all ever have a point where, OK, that two people are really hot in going in different directions about here's the move that we need to make next?

You know, I always felt like the group was very unified. And I felt like pretty united on what needed to happen. The only moment where there was ever a little bit of tension, I would say, was Kelly. And the reason why Kelly had to go was because Dee and Kelly were so close. And so Austin and I were worried that we would lose a number. And additionally, Julie thought that with Kelly were worried that we would lose a number. And additionally, Julie thought that with Kelly gone, that spot would open up for her and Bruce. Obviously, this was not for the

best for D. But you know, you still work out. You have to you have to look at the fact that we have this tight group. And you know, by pledging, you know, obeisance and loyalty to the group, I can make it to the end of the game. Yeah. And that's the kind of calculation that, that Kyle and David were faced with. But I really looked at Joe as kind of like the patriarch

of this group, of the person who sort of said like, all right, everybody, this is what we're doing. It's done. Like, was there that person in Reba who's ultimately saying, all right, end of discussion, this is what's happening? No, definitely not. I mean, the thing about Reba is that it never really got to that point

because we all saw ourselves going to the end of the game as a pair and the dynamics were so simplified and we knew it was us four. And then Emily would vote with the boys and we were facing a unified enemy. And so it didn't really matter, you know, in which order they went, they should go in hierarchy

from most capable of resisting us to least. And so there was no need to plan for a surprise factor. And so as a result, we never had that kind of internal power structure that I think marks a lot of strong alliances. So I'm sorry to give you that. The answer, Rob, I'm just interested to see, you know, how

these decisions get made. If you want my assessment, honestly, of the internal dynamics of Reba, I felt like I probably was the most active strategically or pushy strategically even. And I felt that Austin and I almost always agreed on what the right move was. So that you know, that was with easy pairing. Julie out a lot of times would have her own ideas like Julie was making

some final threes and the merge. But but you know, in practice, it seemed it seemed like her moves were later on. So, or she was deferring her moves. So, and then, of course, Dee obviously always had like a, you know, a strong opinion. So I would say that that's kind of where the breakdown went. Me and Dee would, you know, and Austa as well, would quarrel on the strategy. But again, it was always pretty harmonious. Jeff has said from the preseason, this is a season of partnerships and we certainly have seen that play out where we have a few very prominent pairs in the season. Of course, Joe and Eva, that's well known to everybody.

Of course, now David and Mary have emerged, but Kyle and Camilla are the secret pair. I would love if you could sort of just like contrast. I feel like that the show has really given us, I don't think that the winner will be David or Mary, but I kind of feel like that the winner will either be from the pair of Joe and Eva or Kyle and Camilla, the very public pair versus the very private secret pair.

That's good. That's good. I mean, first of all, this pair theme is common. Like the pair theme has been going on since like 43, 44. And the pair is the new is the new group. I mean, previously, you initially had the tribe, right? The tribe stays together. And then you had the alliance, the alliance within the tribe. And then you got the voting block, right? You know, this constituency is going to get together for the general election, and who knows what will happen in the next four years. And now you have the pair, which is the voting block is too unstable, but the Alliance is too big.

And so let's just get two people that were at a marriage, we're absolutely locked in. And, you know, we'll go as long as we can together. Because it simplifies, and simplifies the dynamics. When you if you have eight people to play with, you know, there's like a billion different ways to go. If there's four pairs, then actually there's only, you know, three other people to interact with.

The permutation is really less. So that's why the pairs become so prominent. Camilla and Kyle are the best players of the season. I mean, everything they do is so well calculated, so masterful and instructive. And there's two things I want to highlight that they do really well that I think should be kind of like templates for players who go out and play again. And, you know, every time I've done this podcast, Rob, I've had people on the next season reach out and be like, oh, I loved this point.

So people do listen to this stuff, apparently. And so here's your message. Survivor 49 players. The two things that I like, oh, I loved, you know, this point. So people do listen to this stuff, apparently. And so here's your message. Survivor 49 players, the two things that I like for them. But OK. Oh, yes. Yeah, I guess they've shipped off. Survivor 50, whatever. The first thing they do really well is manufacturing consent. And so when they want to turn on Shaheen,

they're like, we need to provoke Shaheen. Shaheen needs to do something first so that we can go after him. And I thought that was so, I mean, that's exactly the way you need to go about it. And you need to manufacture a reason why your target is the villain is the bad guy is the outsider. Yeah. And the second thing they do really well is your point. Yeah.

Because I feel like that that also came up when Kyle played the idol, when they played the votes against Thomas. They said, he went through my back. That's what, you know, I was with you guys, but then I heard he went through my back. And so that was like, or he or he was okay with going through the bag. And they sort of made it seem like, okay, that there was a line that was crossed and it was a like retaliation. I forgot about that completely. It's a great example. But what they're doing there is they're creating permission structures to say, well, oh, I'm allowed to turn against you guys because you broke it first, even if they engineered that situation. So that's great.

The second thing they do really well and it trades with with manufacturing consent, but it's they create moralities, they create tribe moralities, you know, you build an ethos within the group where everyone behaves a certain way. And this is right. And this is wrong. And so in an artificial society, you've created something of like an objective moral standard. So this is keep the tribe strong, you know, suddenly, if you don't play loyally, you're bad. It's not like, you know, being a

strategic, selfested game player like it would have been in season 35. Now it's evil. It's morally corrupted. I mean, you should go home. And so those are two tactics that I think they do super duper well. So that second thing,

that's something that Kyle and Camilla are doing? I think it is because I think it is because, um, notice the way that they ostracize Shaheen and David to Joe and Eva and even to other players out there. They always and Camilla to the minority and Kyle to the majority. They're like, oh, we're with you guys. But these guys are wild cards. They're sneaky. You know, that's not that's not who we are. Right. That's not who you want, right? That's not who you wanna play with. I mean, it's buying into this moral ethos

that guides this tribe and that we as viewers find so frustrating because, you know, don't you look at the strong five, Robin, they're like, they're sanctimonious, you know? They think they're so right. They can't see their hypocrisy. It's because they've created a moral culture within the tribe and that's hard to do.

It's really hard to do. So I think Kyle and Camilla get some credit for doing that. Yeah. I really feel like though that that seems to be the cord that works with Joe, specifically Joe and David. And I wonder if they're just trying to play to the power of Joe and Eva even to like say that that's the reason why the motive for the decisions that they're making. It could. I mean, like obviously they're not making their decisions out of like, you know, moral

integrity. And maybe I'm projecting because that's something that Austin and I tried so hard to do, like explicitly to create a moral culture within the tribe. What was the moral culture you were trying to create? The moral culture was at no advantages. That advantages are evil. And that if you have an advantage, it doesn't matter who you are, you need to go home, which was ironic because we had most of the advantages. Yeah. Well, there's always some hypocrisy in creating the world. It's always like, it's like, you know, the big Alliance like, Hey, anybody who flips like that is a, that is a horrible person. Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. So like, yes. I mean, if you, if you're selling something, you got to have a ready buyer. Joe and Eva are definitely the ready buyers. But, but I, I wouldn't just, I wouldn't credit the emergence of this, of this kind of like ethos or vibe just to just to Joe and Eva because it didn't exist on original lock. So your thesis about OK, the pairs are the new voting blocks, the new alliances. Do you think that any part of that is the expediency of the new era in that if I have a 39 day game and I have three days in between tribal council, I have sort of the downtime to sort of manage an alliance. But in this new era where you know, maybe I'm having more and more 24 hour episode cycles of like, okay, I wake up in the morning, I do a challenge, we're out all day. I got like, you know, 45

minutes to plot before tribal council. Maybe a duo is all I can manage. Yeah, this is a point that I feel like Stephen Fishback makes oftentimes when I talk with him. And I resist. In your offline conversations? Well, yeah, when we talked online, but I'm sure he says it to you, maybe he doesn't. Maybe this is not a Fishback specialty.

Maybe. Hey, who knows? Anyway, so Rob is saying, at least in this conversation, but I disagree with it because when, as soon as they switched to a 26 day season, they went from no alliances, voting blocks, to re-emerging alliances. Right? I don't think it's a hyperbole to say that

in some of those like, you know, big moves era, mid 30s seasons, there were no alliances. Like there were no alliances that lasted longer than an episode or two. I mean, that, that, that's over. Gameplay is more loyal today, even though the game is two thirds of the length. Yeah. I'm just trying to think that all through. So you what you're saying is that towards the end of the 30s that we did not the alliances sort of fell by the wayside in terms of like in favor of voting blocks or worse. But we have a more loyal game consisting of pairs of pairs. Is that is that fair to say that maybe people are like, OK, I can manage my pair and then

our pair will link up with another pair? Well, it comes down almost like network theory, which I'm not going to explain. But the basic gist is you bond with somebody. You have a tight two. And then when everyone is in a two, or when a lot of people are, the possibilities of the game simplify.

Like a beach with 10 people on it has the strategic dynamics of a beach with five people on it. So it's a lot easier to organize yourselves. And the combinations that result are more durable, because it's not like, you know, you're not you're not dealing with a billion other possibilities and alliances that are going to slip through. And so that's why I think sometimes the strategic aspects are simplified in the new era, and also why alliances

seem more durable, in my opinion. That's my bet. Is there more safety in a known pair as opposed to a hidden pair like Kyle and Camilla? You know, intuitively, Rob, like you would say a secret pair is better, right? Wouldn't that be your, you know, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Yeah, because it seems like that, hey, I can't go after Eva. Joe's going to get mad. I can't go after Joe. Eva is going to be pissed. But Camilla doesn't have anybody.

We could take her out. She's easy pickings. She could be she could get a partner and that could be bad. So we have to take her out now. Exactly. And I thought it was amazing because if I had been out there on this in Kyle's shoes or Camilla's shoes, I would have tried to vote David out. That would have been my move. I would have gone to Shaheen and say, this guy is trouble. You know, Mary is like somehow invaded our core five. And we need one of them needs to go. But they didn't because even though Mary and David, you know, we don't agree with them

and they're causing all this trouble, they're a pair. And so they have this protection. And so, I mean, that's really unusual because it defies every like logic of like, oh, they're voting together, they should be a target. You know, it's a good point that you bring up about Shaheen and all this. Does Shaheen find out that the reason

that we're targeting Camilla here at this vote is because Mary feels like that Shaheen in all this. Does Shaheen find out that the reason that we're targeting Camilla here at this vote is because Mary feels like that Shaheen and Camilla have like some kind of close relationship, some sort of like bond that's forming and that's the reason why we're targeting Camilla? We didn't hear from Shaheen at all, did we? But he's a pretty key stakeholder in all this, that you would think that, like, I don't know how that they, you know, he knew that they were going to vote for Camilla, seemingly, like, right? He must have been in those conversations.

Yeah, no, he must have been. And it was very unusual the way they're editing him, because I don't think Shaheen can win. And I feel like this episode was damning for him, because in the preview, he's like, as long as I have power, I should be okay. And then the beginning of the episode is all about how bad his reads are. So evidently he has no power and he's totally bracketed

from the power making decisions. So I feel like the message is that Shaheen is this teeny type player who should be good, but isn't. Yeah. And I feel like that Shaheen's game seems to be that like we saw him talking to say we saw him talk. We see we've seen him with Star. We've seen him,

you know, potentially like talking to Camilla. Like it seems like he is trying to gather up the people that are at the bottom to potentially build like this. And Steven used to make fun of me because I felt like that I was, you know, projecting that Romeo could be that person in season

42 I'm like Chanel there's Tory there's Marianne. There's all these people at the bottom Romeo could do it Romeo's army and I'm starting to see Shaheen in that same way of like like could he be the person who gets together? Mitch star same way of like, like, could he be the person who gets together Mitch, Star, and maybe at this point, I don't know who else is left at the bottom, maybe Kyle and Camilla, and that's it. It's getting out of the bottom. Mary would have been a good number for him, but it seems like that that ship has sailed.

But I mean, we're down to nine. So like, it's like, can Kyle and Camilla and Kyle says he doesn't really trust Shaheen. So it doesn't seem like that that's a fit. No, yeah, it doesn't at all. To me, Shaheen is somebody with very few options strategically. It feels like everyone has kind of made their plans and he's just leftover.

And so he's almost like the opposite of Joe, because everyone's plans need Joe. And that's for a number of reasons. And one of the major one is the minority group is so incompetent that you can't trust them. They're not reliable votes. And so Joe in contrast is highly, highly reliable. He's very steady.

He does what he says, you can predict him. And so everyone needs to work with him. In contrast, Shaheen doesn't have really these incentives to work with, and so he's kind of just gonna float along. So to get back to your original point, I have no idea what his sense of the vote was. I mean, it's a total mystery.

I felt like with this vote, I don't know what you thought, Rob, but it was as if the tribal council had been from a different episode than the episode I watched. Like all of the discussion leading up to tribal had no bearing or relevance on the tribal council. Yeah, I felt like that this was sort of like, we weren't gonna really highlight Chrissy in the episode

and then we kind of like let Chrissy go off at tribal council and that was kind of her send off. Yeah. Because it was a very boring, you know, nine to one vote where I'm surprised they didn't even, they weren't even worried. Well, Christie didn't, she said she didn't, I talked to her this morning,

she said she didn't even think to play the shot in the dark. Nobody seemed to be that concerned about her playing a shot in the dark. Or an idol. Yeah, no, I mean, it was really explicable and I have like, I don't have an explanation, which is tough because, you know, we were supposed to be commenting. But I will say it's kind of like a difference in editing from like 47,

which is where I felt like production was so on point on their game. We got we got all the dynamics. We got all the nuances. I mean, you know, Operation Italy was explained with like a level of detail that that is rare and survivor strategy. And this kind of like, you know, fly by the, I forget what the expression is, but you know, whatever, like we'll show you some fun parts. We'll show you Joe's gonna fight the gorilla.

And you know, you can piece together what happened at the end. So it was a little disappointing. Yeah. But yeah. And also when I spoke with Chrissy this morning that I asked her about, you know, why did people seem to think, did you think that Shaheen and Camilla

had something going on? She's like, well, not really. But she did mention that, okay, when he picked her in the challenge, that was something. I said, oh, because he picked her first. She's like, no, he didn't pick her first. She actually said, and this was actually edited out of order where they

really they made it. They presented it like, here's Joe. Joe's like, all right, I'm going to sit back. I'm watching everybody. I'm watching. She said that they decided they're going to pick partners. First thing that happens is Joe says, I got Eva. It wasn't that Joe sat back and watched it all develop. And then she said that Joe's like, hey, I got Eva. It wasn't that Joe sat back and watched it all develop. And then she said that Joe's like, hey, I got Eva. And then she said, David's like, OK, I'll go with Mary.

And then she said that Mitch and Kyle got together. And it was like, whoa, whoa. And she was like, whoa, whoa, that's not right. You can't be doing that. And then Shaheen said, I've got Camilla. And then Mitch said, I've got or Kyle said, I've got Mitch. And then she protested and then said, Kyle was like, OK, well, I'll take Chrissy then. So she said that was edited completely out of sequence.

Well, it makes it a lot more stupid because Joe chooses Eva first. Then he gives this whole speech about who you choose is Indicative of who you are and who you're gonna go to the end with. Yeah, and I already chose Joe's just sitting back watching the social reads of everybody and this was like a masterstroke Yeah, you know, I I feel like Joe gets a little bit flustered sometimes, which, you know, he's so like, you know, stone cold, it appears. But when people come to him with too much information or conflicting information,

he kind of gets this far away look and he just shuts down in the conversations. I don't think he's good on the fly. Yeah, I mean, he is very much like, you know, he has like the right temperament and energy. He's very like a calm presence where I don't think that people will follow him. But I thought last week when Sey said to him like, hey, can we talk? And he gave her an answer that was sort of like, well, that's really that's up to you.

Like, I think it wasn't like hearing her out in terms of like, well, that's really that's up to you. Like, I think it wasn't like hearing her out in terms of like, OK, let's talk. Yeah, I know. And it does make me wonder a little bit, are Joe and Eva actually jury threats, which seems insane, but I don't think Eva can win the jury just based on her interactions with the group and the way they treat her. And Joe, I mean, Joe is very loyal and reliable

and so everything involves him, but it doesn't seem necessarily like he has that much like strategic initiative, you know, he's just the point in the road, the crossroads where everything leads through. And so it'll be interesting to see as the game develops and like Joe has to kind of take a more active role, how that goes, because that interaction with Say

is kind of like maybe an early indicator that he might not be perfect at it. I'd love to talk with you about something controversial. Are you ready for this? I love controversy. I know you do, I know you do. Okay, so last night during the episode, a lot of people were up in arms when they went to the reward challenge or the the taco reward

at the end of the challenge. And it was shown on television that the players had a placard of where to sit at their reward. And we see from left to right, here is Eva and Joe and David and Mary. And then the idol or the clue to the idol is placed in the tortillas,

which are only in front of Eva, where if Mary wanted a tortilla, she would either have to walk 10 feet over to where Eva's setup is, or pass the ball across the room. So the idle clue, or the advantage clue, is hidden in a place where really Eva is the only person who can have access to that barring something unforeseen happening. And a lot of people

went to online to say that this felt very rigged that this was an advantage put only where Eva had access to it. And we We gotta call the Washington Post. I mean, this is outrageous. Okay. No, I mean, no, I don't think so. And I think that- Well, okay, so let me- It was for Eva.

Yeah, before you go too far down the road, then let me also then tell you that then some other folks- Yeah, that's the problem. Went back to the idle clue. And so let me share this with you. So here was the advantage clue that Eva ultimately got which read, your effort in today's challenge

has also earned you a secret advantage. And then it gives the instructions to the advantage. So, maybe more so than was an idle, an advantage clue put where only Eva could reach it, was this placed where the winner of the challenge was always gonna be the person who got the seat with the advantage clue. Oh, I mean, it was totally that.

Like I was just joking about that outrageous earlier. Survivor is a show, especially in this day and age, you know, which is why I was involved and so I can speak to it, but has so much integrity, especially compared to other reality shows out there that, I mean, the idea that they would overtly, you know, rig something like that because they like Eva is in my opinion, you know, absurd. They've gotten so many winners they hate in the last 10 years that like, you know, they if they're doing that,

they're probably pretty shit at it. So no, no, but so obviously, the real contention is like, you know, is it is a good gameplay to reward somebody already winning immunity with another advantage? Right, right, yeah. So I think that that's the explanation that makes sense in terms of, okay, the clue says, okay, for your effort in the reward. Okay.

But this does feel different of that you not only win this immunity, you also go on reward and you also get a secret advantage. That's a lot for winning one challenge, right? You know, it is a lot for winning a challenge. And I will say the advantage is probably going to be a tchotchke. Like it's probably going to be like, you know, safety without power. Oh goody.

Or an extra vote, like a grade. So I mean, you know, it's not as if Eva is going to get the Tyler Perry Idol. But then the other point is that, I mean, survivors always been kind of like the rich get richer. They used to hide the clues and advantage and stuff and reward kits. Yeah, right. And so that's the situation where you win the tribe or the challenge. So the other team is demoralized. Then you get equipment to get food, which on a 39 day season is way more

important than a 26 day season. That food makes all the difference, especially no longer pre merge. So the only difference is okay, you didn't win immunity, but sometimes you even won immunity with the reward that had the clue hidden in it. So is this really all that different than the way it used to be? I don't know, I'm not convinced, Rob.

So to me, I feel like that this seems different in that where a tribe wins a reward and inside the tribal reward where seven people, eight people have access to a toolbox and one person is going to get the advantage, might cause the whole tribe to start fighting. Here in this instance, the person who wins the challenge also gets, you know, it's not even like that the group that goes to it, there's a one in four chance that it just seems like so much where that the person who won the challenge also gets. And yeah, I guess is it is that how is that less fair than Rachel like bidding on the right auction item and

getting an advantage? So I don't know, it feels too much to me. But I can't really argue about why I don't like it so much other than it hasn't been this way in the past. Well, I mean, the reason why we don't like it is that there is this fundamental belief that, like, survivors should be equitable, you know, that everyone is starting from a fair playing field. I know for writing my paper, which is very eggheady, I won't get into it, but I read this old quote from a CBS executive and he was describing their attitude on game shows in the 1950s. And the CBS executive explained, oh, it's really simple. Americans believe, quote,

we're all the same and we're all smart. So there's this, which I thought was pretty crazy thing to say, but you know, there's this belief that like, we're all smart and we're all the same and anyone could win Survivor. And, you know, we're all going to be out here and giving it our best. And so when there are gameplay aspects that, you know, really wait towards somebody, it feels like a betrayal of the show. But the show also recently has been focusing on luck.

Luck has become like an explicit theme. And I think on my season, it was like one of the first jury questions. Like you, how did you get lucky to be here? I think Kelly asked that. I mean, the show never would have aired that back in the 2000s, you know, when the winner was supposed to be down there in the luck. And so if it's a situation where like the rich get richer, you know, maybe that ties into the new show, the show's new ethos, which is,

you know, it's luck, it's a lottery. You know, anything could happen and and maybe us as older fans are like well that's not you know that's not how it should be you know it should be an even playing I don't know yeah you know I do think that there's a lot of interesting things there where the show you know I do feel like has always been, you know, I feel like that Suri was the person that sort of like really encapsulated that, of that they always presented Suri,

even though she was one of the greatest game players, you know, cutthroat survivor contestant, as hey, she got up off the couch, if she could do it, anybody could do it. This could be you, even like like hey, hey tell your mom apply the idea of like hey the strong people are Fighting back does seem to fly in the face of that of like hey We are going to you know dominate the game with our muscle and our physical acumen

And we're taking we're dominate the game with our muscle and our physical acumen, and we're taking the game back. I guess, does luck sort of function as the great equalizer to that? But if that's the case, then you can't make the people who are dominating the challenges also the people who are getting lucky. No, yeah, I mean, that's a good point. I'm not sure luck does count as like the great equalizer.

I mean, maybe they want it to, but when you look at like how it's pitched, like, Saree is the regular person who got up the couch. I mean, a lot of the messaging these days is like, that was hard, think you could do it, think you could manage, not everyone can. Do you think you're the one who could do it? And so it's not like anyone can play survivor.

It's like, you know, anyone could, you know, could have the abilities to be a survivor, right? Like, I explained that poorly. It's not like everyone can go play survivor. It's like, maybe you have the abilities, the secret abilities to go play survivor, to go last it out. I don't know. That's my that's my impression. It seems like casting is kind of switched from like we're going to get the ordinary American to like we're going to find truly exceptional people. And maybe you're just exceptional in disguise

or maybe you're ordinary. But if you're exceptional in disguise, we'll discover that and we'll put you on the show. Yeah. But it's a little bit of luck. You know, if you're if you're I definitely feel that that's a part of it. I also feel like that's a part of it

I also feel like that they really bill the show as like hey Are you ready to come out here and have this adventure have this experience? And I think that they really do feel like that as storytellers that they are telling this, you know life-changing experience for 18 people more so than a game that one person outfoxed 17 other people. Whereas I think that used to be what the idea of the show was. Whereas look, anything could happen. You could lose your vote.

You could just get totally whammied out of the game. You had no idea that that came. And hey, those are the breaks on Survivor, where, you know, I think it's much more about the experience for the people and that they're getting something out of it and they're on this journey and growing

as opposed to, you know, anything about winning or losing. Yeah, I think that is right. I don't know, I mean, maybe I wouldn't stand by some of the things I said previously about luck, but your point is definitely right. And I can remember when I was in casting, and maybe this craze was after your time, maybe you had to experience it too,

but James Frazier, like the hero with a, or no, Joseph Campbell, excuse me, although James Frazier, like the hero with a, or no, Joseph Campbell, excuse me, although James Frazier is related, Joseph Campbell, hero with 10,000 faces, these theories of archetypes, it was so ever-present in the casting process. Can you explain that? Because I don't know it.

Yeah, for sure. And even I actually just called Cochran to get some advice about writing and things like that, and he referenced it too. So I think this is a real reference point for those people out there in LA. Look at you, hobnobbing with Fishbone, Cochrane.

They're rich and famous. Yes. Well, I mean, they're so amazing that it's like, if I can call them up, like, you know, of course, I would be a fool not to. But anyways, the idea behind this is that there's guy, there's these academics who went through and analyzed folklore and they came up with like, oh, all these folklore legends have

like a plot, you know, there's a hero and the hero struggles and it's inauthentic. And then the hero quote unquote meets the goddess has this kind of transformative moment where they discover themselves and then they go on and they win. And there are all kinds of archetypes attached with that. You know, there are different characters who figure within the story. And when I was in casting, several times Jeff and Matt referenced this. I mean, this was something they really resonated with. They thought this was the bones of storytelling.

And a lot of other Hollywood people feel the same. And so when you talk about this kind of transformational experience aspect of Survivor, I mean, this is the school of storytelling that we're talking about. It is this this mythic event where ordinary people become something extraordinary and only a certain group within the ordinary is going to become extraordinary. Only a small number are going to meet the goddess. But it's much more about that kind of like transformational or even maybe therapeutic experience than it is about winning and losing anymore. Yeah. And did you feel like that you had that experience

when you went on the show? I don't know. I mean, to get like really personal Rob, like I went on Survivor fundamentally because I had always felt like an imposter in my life. You know, I felt like I was playing a role in a character. Have I ever let my guard down? Like people wouldn't accept me.

And so one of the reasons to go on Survivor is because it's this brutal primitive environment where it's, you know, life or death. And it's like, are you enough? And if you are, you know, you will meet the goddess, you will have this transformational experience. But the reality of the survivor experience is that it's so physically brutal, so difficult, so bleak in many respects, that I mean, it can

break you down to a point where, you know, you're looking at it afterwards, and you're like, what were the, you know, what were the pieces? What did this all mean? I mean, this was like an incredible funhouse experience, but it was hard to understand. And so that's why so many people put so much stock in the airing of the show, because they say, I'm so discombobulated that when I watch it back, then I'll be able to see what happened. Then I'll be able to discover me.

And a lot of times people discover them they don't like. And that's why they lash out on Twitter, you know, and fight with people on Twitter because they're not just arguing for it's like, that didn't really happen. It's like, that's not who I am. Like, that's not that's not the me that this, you know, that this experience constitute. And so what I got out of it was was tough because like when I went out there,

I felt like on the airing, I was a part of somebody else's story. Like, you know, I was like a secondary character. Not everyone could be the main character, which is fine. But it didn't give me the kind of conclusive answers that I felt like some people get out of it. And maybe that's a better thing. But that's my attitude on the experience. That's a very... Yeah, what do you say to me, I feel like is different than how I hear a lot of other people describe it, where you describe the

experience as a lot of things, but bleak was one of the things that you said. And I feel like that for so many people, and maybe this is just what they say, that they say the experience is so transformative and powerful and great. And if anything, that it was the TV show that, and this is, I guess, similar to what you're saying, is was maybe the TV show ruined it, but that the experience that people had

was so great and so powerful. And it was only watching it back on TV that made it not so great. I mean, you know, a lot of people leave Survivor and they get like, I went to Catholic school and in Catholic school you had to go to retreats and the kids, I didn't, I never went because I didn't, I was suspicious of them, but the kids would come back from the treats with what they call the retreat high, which is they come back and they're like, oh, we're all brothers, you know, we all love each other. You know, I'm so loved by everyone.

And they would, you know, then they would go back to real life for a weekend. They'd be like, oh, actually, I'm just a regular person. A lot of people come back from survivor with the retreat high and they're so energized. And they're like, I did this transformative thing and I, I that's something nobody else could do. And I have all these best friends forever. And so they, you know, they're on the high and they come down with it over time. But for me, survivor, there's an aspect of this really bleak because the physical challenges of it and then also the constantly being on television, you know, constantly having to fight every moment to exist. Right. So the constantly being on television, constantly having to fight every moment to exist.

If you step off the gas for 30 minutes, you could go home. There's an aspect of it that is a little bit dehumanizing. That makes you feel like an animal a little bit. That's what I always tell people about Survivor, honestly, and I've never said it on camera, but Survivor makes you in some ways into an animal, into a chimpanzee, you know, and that's fine. And that's why it's exciting. And that's why it's exciting to watch as a viewer. But you should be prepared for that. It's my take. How does Jeopardy compare to that?

Jeopardy is not psychologically demanding in out there for a day and I made more money than most people do in a year. And then I just went home and I went to the Chick-fil-A in the mall. It felt so fake. We're a survivor. No, I got like $50,000 or whatever. But let me tell you, I felt like I had worked for that money. I was like, you know, this50,000 or whatever, but let me tell you, I felt like I had worked for that money. I was like, you know, this was having a full-time job.

Jeopardy! I just walked out of the studio and I was like, wow, I'm rich. How did that happen? You know, it's incredible. So it was a very different feel. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? A little bigger.

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If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connexontario.ca. I've just been to Specsavers and upgraded my lenses to extra thin and light with 50% off. Now, what else can I upgrade? My cat? Meow. Ruff, ruff? Wow. My scooter? Oh yeah. Get 50% off lens upgrades in

the Specsavers Spring Sale. Hey, I could upgrade my kids. You chill, Mom. I'll load the dishwasher. Awesome. Exclusions apply. See Specsavers.ca for details. Offer ends soon. Awesome. Exclusions apply. See specsavers.ca for details. Off for end soon. Drew, I have a lot of questions for you from the listeners that I hope that this makes you feel good to know that we got way more engagement and interactivity of these question threads with you than anybody else this season. I'm flattered. Wait, I will just say, Rob, just really quick, I love Survivor. I'm so grateful for the experience. I wouldn't come to this podcast if I didn't think it was a wonderful experience. So if anyone important is listening, just know I really

appreciate it. And yeah, but anyways. Yeah. And a lot of important people are very busy right now. Actually, you know what's funny, Rob, is that when I did my exit interview, I talked about hunting crabs on the show. And I got a DM from Glenn Greenwald, who is like a, I think a Pulitzer winning journalist, to be like, you should be nicer to animals. Oh, wow.

From the exit interview on RHAP that he talked about. And I was like, well, Glenn, I guess you're right. But suffice it to say, Rob, you have a, you have a cosmopolitan reach. Yes. All right. And as, yes, I've, I do want to remind our listeners to please be kind to animals and crabs. Okay. Yes. Be nice to them. Okay. All right. Let me bring in some questions and let's see. Question from Abby wants to know, is working with David good for Mary's game? No.

What do you think Rob? I don't think it's good for her at all. What did Mary have going on before? Like at least? She had everything going on. She's like the new kid at school. She can join any friend group. Mary overexposed herself.

She bet on the wrong horse and her horse is about to break a leg. And then she'll be tarred and stained with that for the rest of the game. I think it was really imprudent. No, I kind of disagree with that. I think that was really imprudent. No, I kind of disagree with that. I think that if anything, Mary is the lower value target

with being in a pair with David. And I do think that, look, Mary is sort of like reading the writing on the wall of like, hey, strong five, that's the alliance. And you know, by one way or another, and we didn't really get to see how she did this But she's got David going to bat for her and saying like hey if For Mary to feel comfortable. This is what we need to do

Okay, you know for Mary to feel comfortable with one of the people that's actually in the Alliance This is what we have to do Like David is really sticking his neck out for Mary and nobody else was doing that for her the whole game. Yeah, but I know, but David is sticking his neck out for like the guillotine, right? Like it's, you know, he's not exactly, he's not doing her a favor at the end of the day.

This is going to backfire. And now Mary is on Joe's target, Joe's radar, Kyle's radar, Shaheen's radar, and Camilla's radar as actually a really serious game player where she has nobody to back her up. But what else does she have going on? Like it was like, you know, better this than just be like, you know, next on the chopping block after, you know, Mitch or Star.

You know, I mean, like that is true. Like if you really think that this five is gonna go to the end of the game, but a lot of times when people stumble, you know, they have to take a couple episodes, a couple of tribal councils to rebuild and to like get some bonds and, you know, if you're not on the bottom,

to network a little bit and slowly assimilate. I felt like this David situation was just like, oh, suddenly we're a duo. It's been three days and, you know, we're all as one. And I'm manipulating the game through David very transparently. I think it was too hard, too fast. And if you are on the outside like Mary is, you're the new kid, you don't have the connections. You need to integrate into the group in a much more deferential manner. And I felt like allying with David and making this

power play didn't have the tact that was going to be required. Yeah, it's not perfect. I just feel like that she's in a better position, I feel like, than ultimately, like even if this ultimately self-destructs the power six or the strong six, like I do think it like is more likely to get David voted out. And I don't know if the group is going to stay strong enough. Like I kind of feel like, okay, if David goes home, the next move I think isn't gonna be take out Mary also.

Yeah, I mean, that's probably true. But do you think that by this David debacle, which I think is a debacle, maybe it's not, do you think that Mary has sabotaged her relationships with Joe and Kyle? I don't know if she had a relationship with Joe or Kyle. She was never on a tribe with them before. I mean, they only, they had the merge and I guess they were on the beach together for two days. But then they were apart

for the split tribal council. And then they were doing this. So I guess she has spent 48 hours with them. Yeah. Let me rephrase. Do you think that Joe and Kyle, who it's probably pretty obvious to marry are at the center of the of the vortex. Yes. And she did go she was on the group that said Rick with Kyle. Do you think that they would want to work with her in the future? Like, like to me, they would go to like Mitch before Mary. I agree. Yes. So so she is functionally has ostracized herself from

like the two most important power players in the game. Yeah Look, but I think it's kind of dire straits for her because she doesn't have like she's not connected to any of the powerful players In the game the only you know powerful player in the game that she has any kind of proximity to has been David I mean she was on a tribe that's completely extinct. And then she went to a swap tribe with, you know, and maybe she has some kind of connection to Eva. Maybe that's also, you know, part of it. But I take the point.

I think that you are right, Rob. I think that the David connection in and of itself is beneficial. But the way to mobilize it is, in my opinion, to like sit tight, continue to curate their relationship and to use it to, to go against the five rather than to, you know, snipe at somebody outside the five recklessly in hopes that like that will get you into the group.

Yeah. But her tightest ally is like all in on the five. Like this is the play like David. I don't think is that he's not going to ever flip on the five. Like this is the play. Like David, I don't think is that he's not going to ever flip on the five. The only path for her is a, Hey, what if I got you in the five? Yeah, maybe you're right. I don't know. I mean, like I hear what you're saying, but it's hard to look at the result, which is ostracizing Kyle, ostracizing Joe and say, and getting on the bad side of Camilla, you know, so trading your allyship with David for three other people and saying like, this was a good, you know, transaction. Yeah. Maybe. And this is, this is where I always end up getting things way wrong when

I try to assign like 4D chess abilities to people. But is it possible that she knows that David trying to bring her in and, oh, we got to take out Shaheen. He's too close to Camilla. Could that be sort of like, like her way of breaking up the band of like, okay, well, maybe I'm going to sort of like, incept them from the inside out and get them all fighting. I mean, we did see her basically flame out for the entirety of the pre-merge. So I don't know if I'm ready to like attribute to her like masterful strategic ability. You know, she's probably like an average or above average player.

Yeah. But, but, you know, I like Rodney has so much hope in Mary and I, you know, I hope she surprises me. Yeah. Can I give you a theory of reality TV, Drew? Yes, I love theories of reality TV. All right, so try this on. You tell me what you think, okay?

The people that get to the end on reality TV is a combination of the best players of the season and the worst players of the season. Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's totally accurate. I've always said that once you get to the merge, like the merge proper, not like they're in the merge, the hardest thing to do is to kill the goats, right?

You can kill the other people, but you can't kill the goats because nobody's ever gonna let you. Nobody's, you know, they all wanna go to the end. And so the goats end up being like, you know, they have immunity because on most seasons, you know, they're spot in the final five is all but a shirt. And then I mean, we have to make some hard decisions. But yeah, I completely agree. So like, yeah.

Something that I personally find infuriating is that the, but the people who made it to the end, and this is beyond Survivor, this is across all of reality TV and some shows, especially more so than Survivor, that people who are made it to the end only because they are quite bad, often don't have the the the wherewithal to know like, I like they're like, hey, I did it. It's like, yeah, because you were so bad. That's how you got to the, people knew how bad you were and that's why they didn't get rid of you. But I feel like that they really, like, really, like, you know, beat their chest of like, hey, I did it.

I go to the end. Yeah, which first of all, like, even if you're a baller, if you perform well on like a reality TV show and then you come back to real life and you're like, oh, I'm sick, like I'm so cool. Like this is how I feel about some of the people who've like, you know, feel really entitled about being on Survivor 50.

I'm like, what did you do? You were just yourself. Like you didn't do anything. Like, you know, because you're you, I'm not gonna give you a million dollars. Like that's not how the real world works. Like if, you know, you did great on a reality TV show, like, you know, that's not how the real world works. Like, if you did great on a reality TV show, like, you know, that's like doing good at Monopoly.

So I agree with you, Rob. I completely agree with you. And the show agrees with you too. The show is very upset about it. The show's doing everything in its power to kill the goats as fast as possible. And they just won't seem to die. Yeah, just the people at the end of the show are going to be the people who are the

very best players and also the very worst players will be the people who go all the way on these reality shows. Yeah, and the fans can label who is who. And if you're in the middle, you don't have a chance. If you're in the middle, you are going out between seven and ten. Yeah, forget it. Okay, totally. You are going out between seven and 10. Yeah, forget it. Okay, totally. I mean, there have been some bad players this season,

but a lot of them are eliminated. So I guess this might buck the trend. All right, Drew, a lot of people had a similar question about they wanna know, do we blame the Survivor 45 playing with the boys segment on how the Strong Alliance got made this season? Was that sort of reinforcing this idea of like, hey, let's bring it back? No, I mean, the playing with the boys, you know, this is an overstatement, but it could be one of the purest moments

in recent Survivor history because it was Austin, myself, Bruce and Jake. We all said, listen, guys, I don't care if a Nobel Peace Prize is on the line. We're not going to do anything with each other at this vote. Let's just not talk about the game and have fun. All day we just chill and we did as much crazy stuff as possible. I'll tell you, it was my favorite day on Survivor. I mean, we didn't even play the game. Like there was no strategy to talk at all. And so in contrast to the purity and innocence of the top gun, you know, boys night on Survivor 45, we now have like the the evil moral police strong men alliance.

And it's just it's not the same at all. That's my that's my opinion. Yeah, I think it's wild that David is also a tribal council. And I like made sure I like clock this because I listened to it again. He's like, hey, you're just mad that this season, the strong guys are getting together. It's like, hey, aren't there like a couple of women in the strong six alliance? Yeah, I know. David really was doing great advertising for Eliza's Patreon with that one. Really, really pumping those numbers now. So, you know, it was very, very generous of him. But, but, you know, I thought it was an imprudent thing to say, like, to be fair, Rob, the strong guys, like they do have they do have a, you know,

there are some aspects of the game that aren't super fair for them. Like they're expected to build camp. They have to provide food for everybody. The food they catch can't be for them. You don't have to give it away. There are challenge abilities are no longer valued for, you know, winning the game, but yet everyone expects them and relies upon them during the pre-merge.

Like, you know, there are some inconveniences for the strong guys, but I mean, the reality is the strong people do pretty well every season and, you know, they're not all men. So it was a little bit of a foot in the mouth moment. Yeah. I feel like that for David, this came up like Camilla's like, well, some people aren't doing a good job

with jury management. Do you feel like that David is reaching that point? Well, David is such a character, you know? Like he's such a personality. And that can be, if you like the personality, like if you're on the same page with him, oh, that's a great diversion, I can't, but if you're against the personality,

it's like insufferable. And so when David was integrated with everybody and everybody was happy to be working with him, he was quirky, he was eccentric. But now that people are not working with him, he's like weird and uncomfortable. And I could see, I don't think that David is weird and uncomfortable, You know, and I could see,

I don't think the David is weird and uncomfortable, but you know, it's alienated. Evidently as Camilla says. So I could see that alienating a jury. Okay. How about Bobby Hall wants to know, when you identify you're on a cult season and you're outside of the core cult, what do you do?

First off, would you say that this is a cult season yet? No, this is not like Coach and South Pacific where you're totally screwed. I don't know. I mean, like your best plan is to slowly cozy up to a subset of the cult so that they'll protect you and kind of get onto the edge of the umbrella and pit them against the people within the group in order to win, which requires biding

your time. You can't do that at 10. You have to do that at seven or six when people are taking stock of the land and saying, OK, I've got three days. Let's make or break. That's when you kind of have to wait for your entrance. But it's difficult. A lot of people don't have the patience for it. Chrissy certainly didn't. And it's also not how people just aesthetically envision their game of Survivor going.

So it's a hard strategy to pull off. Yeah, I don't know if this is necessarily a cult. It seems like that there is certainly a tight three at the core of this, where it's Joe, David, Eva, and I think that they sort of like, okay, hey, we're the tight five and Shaheen and Kyle are also part of the strong five. But Kyle, we know, is kind of like Donnie Brosco, where he's in the strong five, but he's not really in the strong five. And Shaheen, I think we just don't know. And I think that if we look at where the numbers are, I think that it's really Shaheen

who is kind of in the swing position where if Kyle and Camilla can get Mitch and Starr and Shaheen, they can flip this on the people who are at the core of this next week. I just don't know if Shaheen would turn on Joe and Eva. at the core of this next week. I just don't know if Shaheen would turn on Joe and Eva. Yeah, I don't know if Shaheen would turn on them either, at least at this point.

It seems like he's losing appetite to do that. Because for Kyle and Camilla, if not now, then when? Say again? For Kyle and Camilla, if not now, at nine, then when can they do it, now that Mary and David are tight? Well, I think Shaheen would turn on Mary and David. Honestly, I think that they could make that pitch successfully probably, especially if Camilla and Shaheen have this.

Yeah, he could be sort of like that. And I've been comparing this a lot to, you know, Robin Amber in survivor all stars. And they were there and Robin Amber were teamed up with Jenna Lewis and Rupert, but they had Big Tom with them. And then when they got it down to five, Boston Rob got Big Tom and Rupert to get into a fight with each other. And then ultimately, they voted out Big Tom there and went to the end. Somehow they went to the end with the two pairs and then got Jenna Lewis to flip on Rupert. But, you know, that was a case of like two pairs and then one guy who thought that he was with one of the pairs. So maybe Shaheen might be feeling like, hey, we're going to like, I'll get it down

to them. But this is also a new development about David and Mary. Yeah, and Shaheen has to anticipate making a move sooner because he doesn't have a tight pair. Like Shaheen, if there's this group, like every time there's like a dead group, like every time there's like a deadlock, like let's say Camilla and Kyle and Joe and Eva, you know, run the distance. And I think Joe and Kyle are tight.

Like I think Joe really trusts Kyle. I think Kyle's like his number two behind Eva. Yeah. Every time that there's like a gridlock there, like, oh, Shaheen is, you know, Shaheen's like the finger sticking out. You know, Shaheen is the extra. And I think it puts, it puts a lot of pressure and tension on him. I think that he needs to make a move soon rather than

later. And I think he knows that. And I felt like we got a little bit of a temptation in the next time on Survivor that like he's thinking about, you know, shaking something up. Didn't he have like, he's like, I'm ready to make a move. Isn't that? Yeah. But if you're ready to make a move in the preview, do you often make the move? You don't typically make a move. Yeah, no. and it's a good point. And also, you know, as I was saying earlier, I'm not, I'm, I feel like Shaheen is kind of getting the, like, can't quite put it together edit. So maybe he never succeeds. But my view basically is at nine, this group is going to break. Kyle and David are going to target each other in the

next episode. They've already been building it up. And maybe if they don't go for each other directly, I mean, that that would be really aggressive. I can see that happening. They might also go for the plus ones, Camilla and Mary. Yeah. But the tribe is going to have to break over that. Joe will side with Joe and Eva will side with Kyle And then it'll be a question if David can rally former Siva, but but yeah, I Think that the break is coming. Yeah, I agree I think it's coming sooner than later because and also it got help us if the next two boots of the season are Mitch and star

Maybe yeah proper like Pagong. Right. It would be tough. Painful TV. But who do you think is going to go out next? I think David's going. I think David's going next episode. I'm pretty confident actually, just from the edit reading.

It's possible they'll go take Star out, who I honestly forgot was on the season. But it's unfortunate. I wish they would give her a little more content. She's very funny. But I think David's it's David's time. And the question is really like when David goes, because I mean, you can't think David's going to win this. So when he goes, does that make the strong people? Does that make like Eva, Kyle, Joe and Shaheen, does that make them stronger? Does that shatter them? And I think there's a chance that it actually tightens them up.

Yeah, I think that that's certainly possible in terms of where we go next. And for David, it does seem as though he could be in trouble. You said that Kyle and Camilla, that they do a great job of like, setting up their next victim of that there has to be they set up sort of like there. Here's the reason why we have to turn on David. Do you think that they have that established based off of how he handled the move against Camilla? Or do you think that they have that established based off of how he handled the move against Camilla or do you think they need to do a further, a larger job of convincing people

of like, oh, this is what David did that we have to get back at him? Well, they've already been working at it this episode because, you know, Kyle goes to Joe twice two different conversations. He's like, David's behaving really weird. He's got something going on. He's planning something, you know, he's he's he's going to turn against us. Why is he behaving like this? So he's already laying the groundwork to do it this episode. So, you know, it'll probably take a little more coaching for Joe, who is just the epitome of loyalty. But I think the underclass of Survivor 48 will be eager to hear that there's blood in the water.

They don't care. They don't need permission. They're chomping at the bit. And the only one who they'll need to really work on is Shaheen. And yeah. So I think that they've laid a lot of groundwork this episode tacitly.

Okay. I have another question for you, okay? How will the strong men cast on Survivor 50 adjust to this new meta? You know, I always feel that the season before you go like matters more, or excuse me, the season when you're in casting matters more than the one just before you go like matters more early. Excuse me. The season when you're in casting matters more than the one just before you go.

Like I wasn't playing based off season 44. I was playing off season 43. And so yeah, like 50, the all stars will have a little bit more time to calibrate to 48. I don't think the strong men are worried. I mean, like who also, who are the strong men who are gonna be on Survivor 50? You know, like Jonathan, who else, you know?

I'm not sure that there's gonna be this conglomerate of them like there are in 48 that, you know, are gonna be have to be compensated for. You know what? But if somebody could make a strong women alliance, that would play. That would hit. That would play. I mean, Twitter, Twitter would be all the Twitter would be in a flame for the strong women alliance. Like they would be marching in the street for the strong women alliance. And so it would be right off the bat. These these returnees who are at

this point, they're savvy media moguls, you know? They have a fine-tuned image. Some of them have agents, you know? They know who to play for. They know the strong women. I mean, they've had the focus groups on this. They know that the strong women will work. So I could definitely see that happening.

Okay, Jimbo wants to ask you, how would you have reacted to Say? How would that have gone? Oh, you know, at first I really didn't like Say. She grew on me. I began to realize that, you know, she was the beating heart of the season. Hence why she got so many confessionals. But Say is a player who's kind of like cute a little bit

because they're not totally like 100% socially. They're a little bit awkward socially. You know, they keep people on edge. They're a little bit awkward socially. They keep people on edge. They're a little bit volatile. And the flip side is that their strategic moves are hyper aggressive and they don't play scared. They're not afraid of going home. So the combination of hyper aggressivity, of socially just of going their own way makes

them very difficult players to play around, I think. I don't know if Say and I would have gotten along that well. of going their own way makes them very difficult players to play around, I think. I don't know if Say and I would have gotten along that well. I mean, there is a sense in which I'm like very business. Like I'm not like a, I'm not like a small talk person, you know, like let's get down to business. But that's what she likes. She's a straight shooter. Yeah, so there's a sense in which we could get along there,

but I also have a, I'm pretty uncompromising as well. So I wonder if we would disagree. The only player who recently I've seen on Survivor and I was like, oh, thank God I missed this one, was I felt like Venus and I probably would have had serious beef. But other than her, I felt like I could get along with anybody, I could get along with Se.

Okay, all right. So let me bring in something that you shared recently. Okay. So this is from social media. You posted on March 19th, reading about Survivor for a conference talk on Friday. Was that the same conference? Yes, this was the conference. Are these anecdotes real? Shocked I haven't heard of them before. Okay, so the anecdote was, why else would behind the scenes dramas like Jervis, Jen, and Greg's brush with death as they sat with crew members in a disabled boat be eliminated only to be discussed in the companion book to the series? companion book to the series. Why not include the alleged scene where Joel rafting at night was held at gunpoint by offshore pirates of the Malaysian Navy gunboats stationed of the island to deter uninvited visitors? Is this true? Ty, I have not heard about this. First off, what the hell is Joel doing going

rafting at night? So far, I don't know that Malaysian pirates got a hold of him. As you well remember, Rob, Survivor was a phenomenon when it first started airing. And so there were academics who wrote books about like, well, what the hell is this? Like, what is this new show that everyone's watching? And, you know, what's the sociology behind it? And so I think the quote comes from like Mark Burnett's memoir or some companion book to the series. But supposedly these were anecdotes that were circulated in the press or in promotional material for Survivor One. I couldn't believe it.

Yeah. So I think that and I've heard stories, Malcolm told a riveting story about how after the tribal council where they voted out Russell Swan, Malcolm and Denise, it was a very stormy season in the Philippines and their boat like capsized that they were in and they had to like swim out of the boat that had flipped over and sometimes these things may have happened and they weren't on camera and there's no way to then like Say in the reality of the show like hey when we were like on our way to the challenge the boat And we had to show Pat Cusack getting medically evacuated After you know he like hit his head from being in the choppy water

But you know I think that maybe some of these mishaps just happened like outside of filming. Well, yeah. And I mean, especially back in the day, it was a little bit like, you know, you know, by the seat of your pants, like it wasn't all squared away. And sometimes they were filming in even dangerous areas. Your pants better than in the hands of the pants better than in the hands of the fans? Definitely, in the hands of the fans is a catastrophe.

I don't know how the CBS executives looked at that logo and were like, two thumbs up, let's run with it. But I mean, any slogan would be better than that. But one thing that happened in our season, which obviously didn't make air because it happened to a cameraman, but on the beach, I think one of my last days, like late in the game,

a cameraman was walking backwards and filming and stepped on a nail and the nail went straight through their foot. And then we had to all go sit in camp and we couldn't leave camp as they like, they medically evacuated the cameraman. Oh my God. So all kinds of stuff, you know,

all kinds of stuff happens that just never makes air. And you know, there are hundreds of people affiliated with the show and you know, all of them have wild stories involved with it. So probably even wilder, probably even why I've heard some stories that I can't repeat, you know, just on in public, but,, you know, just on in public, but, but, you know, there's some crazy stuff that goes on.

No doubt. I mean everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. It's crazy world. Crazy world. Even at this podcast, there have been crazy things that have gone on. Oh, sure. So many that I can't even talk about.

All right. So we're over 50 in the hands of the fans. Are you ready to vote? Are you ready to talk about your opinions on these hot button everybody wants to know Drew? Which immunity necklace are you voting for? All right I have to tell you Rob, when I got caught from Survivor 50, I stopped voting on these. So I haven't been following them, but I think B is better. I think I like B better.

So if you're listening to the podcast version, that necklace A, and it seems like that maybe there's some sort of like a hawk or falcon that's maybe a bird theme to it, but one seems to have a bunch of, would you call those talons or teeth? They're like fangs. Fangs. Okay. Yeah. That's necklace A and then necklace B is like the full on bird with like its wings spread out. You would say A? No, B. I think B is better.

I think B is better, but also like a little, a little cheap to give us just two options for the immunity necklace. Like this necklace or this necklace, the fans only have two hands. Okay. They, you know, they can't carry that many things. It's a finite number of options. Yeah. I want the immunity sword back. I like that from Pearl islands and the immunity sword can be used to execute the losing contestant, you know, it's like a it's a threat. Okay, Drew, tribe supplies. Okay.

Give them their camp supplies or make them earn the camp supplies. It's hard because like so many of the people on the season will be people that I've met presumably or like, you know, we're in the community. So like, I want to give them the camp supplies, but also they're going to be like old, old players coming back. A lot of them have some, have some sass about the new air. It's too easy. It's too easy. So that'll shut them up. Yeah. Don't give them any. All right. Not even in clothes. All right. Here's where the

rubber meets the road. All right. Now this is, there's a lot of exposition here around the subject of twists, okay? We got two options in terms of twists. Do we keep the game straightforward? I don't like twists. They get in the way of a clean game. I want a season where players can lean on strategy and social skills, not sudden surprises that blow up their plans.

So let's go old school, twists should be very rare. Or, keep the game shifting. I love twists. They add excitement and uncertainty, keeping the players on their toes, forcing them to adapt and rethink their strategy. Bring on the twists. I don't know, I mean, keep, I guess it's like, what do you mean by rare? Like these days

we have a twist every episode. I think that we could probably use fewer twists than that. But I probably keep them rare, but, but presumably the keep them rare option will be like a twist every three episodes. You know, it'll be comparatively less common. So I,'t know. I'm kind of of two minds of this. I feel like in a vacuum, I would say, keep the twists rare. But I do kind of feel like in a season where you have people who are returning players who there is the possibility of some kind of pre-gaming going on. I do think that maybe twists in this specific instance could now are the twists gonna be like fire tokens and things that like didn't necessarily change the dynamics of the game but I kind of feel like that maybe like maybe

like no twists you could say like hey where the where the Florida guys and Florida men are sticking together in this season and the seven of us, nothing you can do about it. I'm like, boy, I wish we had some twists in the season. You know, actually that is a great point. I didn't consider the pre-gaming aspect just because I think that's so icky. I really hate that as I've told you,

but I will say that pre-gaming was really out of control for winners at war, like insane, at least from what I've told you, but I will say that pre-gaming was really out of control for winners at war, like insane, at least from what I've heard from people who played and stuff like that. And it actually was mostly punished. Like the pre-gaming didn't work for anybody. It's a double-edged sword, the pre-gaming. It's a double-edged sword. So I felt like that could have been a moment, which if I've heard it, I'm sure most of the other players, you know,

who could be in the running to come back and I'm not coming back, but, um, ever they've heard it. And so I wonder if kind of the pre-gaming might be at a low simmer, uh, compared to the previous seasons. Um, but I still ultimately think we should keep the twists rare because again for first survivor of this day and age, like where there's a twisted episode, you know, it's not no twists. I would keep them rare also, but I do say that like, I do wonder like in a returning player season, yeah, sure. Let the players play, but it might not be, you know, the worst time to have a twist or two.

It's a good point. It's a good point. Whereas like the players who don't know each other at all, like, I think they're like, oh, let them play a clean game. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that, actually. I like that. I'm swayed.

We should keep the twist medium, you know? Medium. Medium amounts of twists. They don't give us that option. They don't. You know, it's very black and white. Yes. Drew, you also said,

I love an even numbered season of Survivor. These extra six months of simmer, waiting for the EPS to air, always makes their social media extra crazy. This was clairvoyant, because look when this was tweeted. February 25. This was before the premiere. 2025.

Yeah, yeah. So that was, that was early. I think that was before the show started. Yes, I think that might have been the day before. Yeah, how did I know that? Yeah. So that's interesting that just the sitting on the season for so long can make the players like, get like a little bit stir crazy. Oh, it makes you wild. I mean, it's like it's like if your sibling has the birthday, you know, birthday just before yours, you like it to go to their awesome birthday

party. Then you're like, oh, mine's going to be so sick. Like it's going to be I'm so amped, like I'm so hype. You know, they have to go sit and watch like 47's dreams come true. And like everyone loves the season. So then all these 48 people are like, oh, we're going to be so great. Like I'm going to be awesome. I'm gonna be just like, you know, Andy, but not Andy at the beginning, Andy at the end, and everyone's gonna love me. And obviously, that doesn't happen. In fact, the season is comparatively, you know, is being received lukewarmly. But the point is, is

that like, you're so amped up that you just get unleashed and you're like a kid at the candy shop, you're like all over the place and so then that means you brawl on twitter it happened with 48 it happened with 46 and i'm sure there's some others 30 20 28 you know this is a long history of them the even number season being crazy do you wish you were crazier on social media in your season no no actually my, I watched it from overseas and I'm in England and I'm in Oxford and Oxford is like the poshest place on the planet. So I'd be like, oh, I'm actually on reality TV right now.

And like some Earl would be like, oh, you are? How droll. Like they didn't give a shit. They were like, what is this? Not Earl Cole, right? Not Earl Cole, like, you know, like what is this? Not Earl Cole, right? Not Earl Cole, like, you know, like Earl Viscount, you know, like somebody, somebody important and with lots of money. And they'd be like, reality television. Is that, is that like big brother

and they live in the house together and they have tattoos? And I'm like, well, it's not quite. Yeah, no tattoos at Oxford. I'm like, it's not, it's not quite like that. But I mean, the damage is done. So I didn't feel like a celebrity at all. Yeah, no tattoos at Oxford. I'm like, it's not it's not quite like that. But I mean, the damage is done. So I didn't feel like a celebrity at all. And I would talk with people from the season as it's airing. And they're like, oh, yeah, I get recognized like five or six times a day. You know, it's crazy. It's always awesome. Like, you know, you feel like a celebrity.

I felt very cheated. So. I don't know if I, you know, for me there wasn't any reason to get crazy on social media. It's like if I won my Quiz Bowl tournament and I'm like on Twitter being like, I'm the best ever. You know, I just won my regional Quiz Bowl meet. Like, you know, nobody cared. All right. I've. Sorry, too much of an answer. No, that was great. I always like to have the RHAP research team like, hey, what's going on with our guests?

What else is new? And so this came across my desk, okay? I wanna ask you a question about this person that there's a hottie on Jeopardy that they call Hot Drew. Did you know about this? Of course I knew about this. Hot guy Drew? No, I know. And so it's so, I mean first of all this guy is great. He's so nice. He has my dream job. Like, so he's got my name. He's like, he works on the editorial board at Washington Post. So he has my name. He's better looking than me.

Everyone loves him and he has my dream job. So, I mean, what am I, chop liver? You know, and then so that was, you know, I mean, sir, I'm a good sport. I go on survivor. I'm the villain. You know, I didn't make any, he wasn't strategic at all. He just, he just talked funny at tribal. Like, okay, so be it.

You know, Charlie's better. You know, Charlie probably is better. Andy's better. Fine, whatever. All the nerds are better. I can take that. That's no big deal. But then, then to have me on the show

with another version of me who is better in every way, I was like, dear Lord, I can't get a break. What, did you play against Hot Guy Drew? Not only did we play against, but we beat each other up so much that the third guy won. Oh, wow. So yeah. We stymied each other.

Did you get a different name? Where we're like, when I played with Boston Rob, they had to call me Rob C. But like, does Ken refer to him as Hot Drew? No, Ken does not. Ken should refer to me as hot Drew. As the girl who's hot Drew from now on. Can I change Sam? Can I change my name? My, my name on the screen? Change it on stream yard. Please, Sam. Yeah. No, no, no, but but uh, you don't have to actually do it. Thank you, Sam. No, no, no. So I was technically the champ

because I was higher seated and they were like they came into the room and they were like, Drew, you could, you know, Drew, go and change your name. You know, you can you can choose a new new name, like because because he gets me drew. But then I thought to myself, honestly, I thought like, well, all the fans know him. And he's worked his way through all these

tournaments. Everyone loves him. Like, you know, he's like Drew for the audience. So I was like, No, I'll go by the seal. It's fine. Because also, I see you have a seal. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So I went by the seal. But but honestly, Drew, goings was such a good sport that he was like, you know, I'll be going, you know, I'll go by my last name too. And so by my last name. Yeah, yeah, we even made that we made that that joke that he's going home. He's a great guy, though. And not only is a

great guy, but he's a really big survivor fan as well. Like a huge survivor fan. And I know he's been going to some of the watch parties, so we'll have to see. We'll have to see. OK. Now, you got to pick who you were playing against because you were the higher seed? No, no, no.

So the the producers pick who you play in the Tournament of Champions. And I got to pick what my name was going to be because there were two Druze and I was the higher seed. So it was an illusion of choice. Illusion of choice like the Survivor 50 fan vote.

Yeah, yeah. Between more and less twists when it's totally uncounted. You know, like the Survivor 50 fan vote is media manipulation and action, because when there's an option they don't like, they're like, you know, no idols, you hate the underdog. You don't want anyone to have a chance except the mean strong player. And then the idols are like, you believe

in virtue and goodness and a, and a quality game of survivor that acknowledges the show's best moments. And so it's, it's, you know, what am I going to choose? Yeah. It's like a political campaign like, like, this hedge was paid for by more twists on Survivor. Yeah, yeah. But the probes pack. Regular Survivor is boring. You hate it when a big alliance can't be stopped. When they when they get the they get the pack ads too,

like the camera quality's better. Like all the 50 ads are shot in like a better camera, you know, just to like, you know, I paved the way. Yeah. Okay, I had a question for you from Erica, who said, what's Drew's humble trait and what is his daily milk consumption? My humble trait?

What is a humble trait? Do you remember earlier in the season where the Siva tribe was talking about their humble trait and it was like uh charity was like oh I have a busted toe and David's like I have four nipples and Kyle's like I have a callus on my hand. This is like when you're a job interview and they're like, what's a bad thing about you? I don't know. I'm kind of awkward. That's my humble trait. I have a big mouth.

I say things I shouldn't. And I'm sure some of them are in this podcast. Those are my humble traits. I think you've been pretty good. My milk consumption. Oh yeah. Yeah. My milk consumption is, I eat a lot of cereal actually.

I probably am getting close to these guys in milk consumption actually. Really, a gallon a day? Yeah. How much is a gallon? Is a gallon like one of those big things that you get at the grocery store? Is that like a two liter?

How much is that? You know? Weights and measures, not your category on Jeopardy? Not my category. Not my, I never focused on the details. Yeah, a gallon, it's like a... That big thing? Yeah, like a cubic foot of milk.

I can go through a half of one of those maybe. I don't think, a gallon is a lot. That is a lot. A gallon, you're gonna have... But that's still a lot for cereal. What cereal are you eating? Well, it varies actually, because the sugary ones are great. Obviously we like some sugar, we varies actually, because like the sugary ones are great.

You know, obviously we like some sugar, you know, we're Americans. But then when you're on your like third bowl of the sugary stuff, it like starts to get too much. So I typically start off with like, like, give me the most sugar, give me pops, give me frosted flakes, give me lucky charms. And I'll get like a bowl of that. I'll get two bowls if I'm hungry. And from there I switched to like corn flakes

or rice crispies or checks. I love checks. And I close out the day with probably another one to three bowls of the supplementary. Okay. Now is that all breakfast or that's like breakfast, lunch and dinner is all cereal? Exclusively past the hour of 10 PM.

Yeah, this is a late night food. So you eat seven to eight bowls of cereal past 10 p.m.? No, no, no, no, no, like three to five. Okay. Nuts. Three to five. But three to five starting at 10 p.m.? Well, right, because I go to bed late,

so it's like, okay, I'm watching YouTube, I'm watching RHAP, so like, okay, there's two bowls right there, there could be three, and then it's like, well, I'm getting hungry before bed. Like, let's, you know, let's get another bowl. There's a lot of cereal. It is a lot of cereal. You know, it's kind of a running joke in my,

I guess I should have talked about this, the show. I mean, Sam doesn't eat fruit, except maybe he does, but I'm not totally convinced. Do they have all the same cereals in the UK or do they have some wacky cereals? Terrible options. They've got like British cereals and they're awful. They like like Sprite here. Sprite tastes terrible. It tastes like La Croix and the cereals they're not sugary.

So what do you do? You have to bring them from home? No no no I just eat Cornflakes here because Cornflakes is reliable. You know I get the real stuff. Don't get the knockoff brands. You got to be serious about it. I eat that. And they have Rice Krispies here, too. And they do actually have Frosted Flakes, which is not as good, but they have it. But those are pretty much the exclusive three carryover options. So like some of my mainstays, you know, are gone to the wind.

Wow. It's tough. I don't know. Do you drink much milk, Rob? So I do't know. Do you drink much milk, Rob? So I do love cereal. I don't eat nearly as much as you, but I'm kind of an almond milk person. Almond milk. Yeah. You know, I feel that. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what appeals to the almond milk? Do you feel environmentally conscious? I think it's actually the opposite on the almond milk. So what appeals to me is the, I get unsweetened almond milk and the calories are a lot less.

I kind of feel like that as somebody, I try to like keep an eye on what I eat. 30 calories in a glass of almond milk compared to 110 or so in a glass of milk. I'm sure there's no protein in the almond milk, but I feel like I could spend that 80 calories a lot better places than in my milk. That's a good point. You can have some candy with 80 calories. And these guys are drinking chocolate milk.

They're not drinking regular milk. So it's even higher calories. Cause I think that's what the bodybuilders drink. That's, you know, that's decadent. Yes, that's childish chocolate milk, you know, that's out of the pale. I will say though, against almond milk is that if you if you got to go to the movies, you don't care about the movies. You're like, well, let me get some Swedish fish. Let me get like a big popcorn thing. Let me even get maybe the special popcorn bucket with like this movie themed.

Because I got to convince myself that I'm going. I'm going to enjoy it. But if you're serious about the movies, you don't want this messy, crunchy shit. You don't want your fingers all messed up. You're paying attention to the film. That's kind of how I am about cereal. It's like, why do I need some extra little taste or hors, taste or, or durv to like get into the meat of what I love, you know, to get

to celebrate, you know, to demand the ship with cap and crunch and, and, and, you know, so wait that you feel like that the almond milk is like an extra, like, like I do, I been, no, no, no, the milk milk default. Milk, it doesn't really taste like anything. It's just milk, you know? You've been drinking it since you were born. It's just, it is what it is. And almond milk has got this funny little taste to it where it's a little bit watery,

but I don't know what it tastes like. It's a little thinner than the real stuff. I get vanilla almond milk also. That sounds good. I didn't know that was an option. I've kind of been doctrinaire on this, but you know, stick to the classics is where I'm at. I don't judge almond milk.

It's better than chocolate milk, but yeah. Okay. What else is on your mind, Drew? Survivor, otherwise, life? Not much else. I'm very excited for Survivor 50. I feel like it's a culmination of the show. You know, it's gonna be emotional, honestly. Seeing everybody, you know, from all these eras, people, you know, who I know and like being out there. Any hype for Survivor 49?

No, I mean like, Survivor 49, it feels like a trailer at this point. You know, they should call it survivor 49. Who even cares? Yeah, no, but I mean like, honestly, like, are you hyped for survivor 49? I mean, what's the, I don't know what they're doing for survival for them, but I kind of feel like that was survivor 49. And maybe they tried this with survivor 39 was like, Hey, like, let's just go like off the wall. Like everybody's already thinking about 50. Like we could really take some chances here on survivor 49. Well, I don't know if you heard this, but there were apparently there's like some country

music star who got, got leaked on Twitter. He's going to be on survive. I don't even know how that happens. But I, again, I guess we'll find out soon enough if that is true or not. Yeah, yes we will. I mean, that could be interesting. I don't have any inside information other than Twitter. You think they should have done some returning players in Survivor 49? Could they have gone with some like, hey, here's some sort of off the wall returning players

in Survivor 49? Or is this like, hey, this is our last chance to get new people out here in a minute? No, I think they should have gone with returning players for 49. And I think the appetite is there because let's say you leave two slots open on 50 for people who really succeeded 49.

It gives the seasons like a one-two kind of like playoff structure where it's like, it's like, these are like the low, this is like the play-in, you know, this is the wild card round. And 50 is like the real thing. I think it would have a great opportunity to pull on some of your talent. The trouble with CBS right now is that, you know, they really feel like, you know, we've worked hard to find

these people to cultivate these, to scout these talents and they should be loyal. But no, reality TV is kind of like a business. And if you don't give people a room to grow within the business, they're going to leave you further opportunities. And so what's happened is CBS has put so much work and effort into cultivating like really high level talent, like great personalities. And then because of a lack of opportunity to continue, these personalities get stolen by NBC. And like, I've gotten called by NBC. Like the NBC calls are going out. I said, no, of course. But the point is, if I'm gotten called by NBC. Like the NBC calls are going out. I said no, of course, you know, but, you know, the point is if I'm getting called by NBC, a lot of people are getting called by NBC.

And so having another All-Star season is like a good way of saying, well, like, you know, CBS, we really, the contestants, we really like CBS. We love CBS, we love the Survivor people. And having another All-Star season would be a good way to kind of like further develop town instead of, you know, again, returning really like CBS. We love CBS. We love the survivor people and having another All-Star season would be a good way to kind of like further develop towns and of, you know, again, returning to like Surrey and Boston Robb and

the classics who might be a little played out. All right, Drew. Other than that, not much is going on. You on cameo, Drew? I think I am technically on cameo, but about eight months ago, they messaged me and they were like, Oh, we think you can make more money. Let us take over your account.

So Cameo runs my account for me. I don't know what's on there. What do you mean they run your account? What do they have like an AI Basile going on? I don't know. No, no, no. I mean, I respond to the messages. I make the videos.

Like they control the pricing and the advertising and stuff. I have a cameo. You can make a video with me. Yeah, yeah. I still, I forgot about that. I have a sub stack, I have a blog, which some stuff should be going on soon. Oh, I should subscribe.

Yeah, you know, the quality is okay. I'm hoping to improve, but you know, if you want Rob, and if you as viewers you like, and yeah, just finishing up grad school. That's what's going on with me. Let me see. Postcards from the volcano? Is that you? That is me. It's a Wallace Stevens poem. Hence the title. Is he a listener?

No, I think he's dead. But he's the greatest 20th century American. You should, you should look him up if you've made it this far in the episode. Yeah. Is he carrying the 21st century in terms of literature? Well, did I see 21st? I meant 20. Oh, good. Well, you said 20th is the best. Oh yeah. 20th. No, he's definitely not carrying carrying 20th century American poetry, which is great. 21st century American literature needs some carries. I mean, it's pretty bad out there. It's pretty dismal. But Wallace Steven is one of many great writers in the 20th. Yeah. Okay. Well, Drew Bacille, always a treat. And I think you have such interesting takes about Survivor and the world. So I'm so happy that you're watching the shows

and eating your cereal and you come back anytime. Oh, I appreciate it, Rob. I feel, I love doing this. It's such a pleasure. I mean, it's really a full circle moment for me. I used to work at the Coney Island, which is a Detroit thing, but they're like diners. Oh.

And I would, you know, after my shift, you know, eat food for the Coney Island. I would listen to R.H.A.P. What did you know, after my shift, you know, eat food for the corner and I would listen to our HP. What did you do? What's up? What'd you do at the diner? You're a waiter? Oh, I like I actually, I made pizzas. So I would make pizzas and then I would go next door to the Coney Island. I would listen to our HP. So that's the that's the that's the fact check. But anyways, I you know, author middle school, I started working at the pizza place in high anyways, all through middle school, I started working at the pizza place in high school,

but in high school. And so it was, to get to come on the show, such a full circle moment for me, I'm always happy to be here. And I really appreciate it. Yeah, all right, well, such a delight for me as well. Would love to hear what you all thought in the comments. We've got an old school interview.

I've been doing a new, I talked to a new school person on Thursday and do an old school interview. I had a great one with Sandra last week. Kelly Wentworth will join me on Monday. So be on the lookout for that. Patrons, I'll be taking your questions live at 3pm Eastern on the RHAP Q&A. You can sign up for that and check out my Heroes vs Villains rewatch with Josh Wigler. Patron 5 for 5 as well with the First Lady of podcasting that's at Rob is website.com slash patron and club condo. Yeah. Drew, did you know about club condo? What the hell is club condo? Jeff is talking about it's a part of survivor now. It's I don't trust club condo. Like what is this is some like secret LA thing that you get like famous enough and you get invited to. And we don't know, but we're not invited to Starbucks underneath

the city in the tunnels that I've seen bill posley talking about on tick tock. What? Look that one up. Okay. I'll check it out. LA is a crazy ass place. Like they're they're easily going to be a Starbucks under that city. There's a TikTok where it's like, I don't know, it's like some conspiracy theory show. And it's like, it's like, hey, you're ready. You're ready for this. And it's like, it's Bill Posley from Survivor One World. OK, I think I've got to have like a big Hollywood career. Bill Posley, I think he's a writer for for something. And he's like talking about how he used

to work at the Starbucks that's underground. And he would, and he says, was it Jerry Seinfeld's coffee order? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, is it like in a parking garage? Or is it like, is there like underground? No, that's how why he's like, you ever notice how you never see any celebrities in traffic in LA?

They're all in the tunnels underneath the city and there's a Starbucks they don't have to pay and Bill Posley said he used to work there. You know what's crazy is I actually just read a novel recently, which was terrible, but it was recent novel like Gabrielle's Evan or something. They're making a new movie. I forget what it's called. I can look it up. But one of the major plot points of it was there was a tunnel under L.A. that all the celebrities used to get around L.A. Yeah. Have you seen this tick tock?

Let me know in the comments. Is this real? Like, I don't know. Are we live like chat? Is this real? We're not. We're not live on this. We're not live. Okay. I hope that this isn't like, you know, if anything happens to me after I've talked about this. We're going to get like set away. You know, we've ruined their tunnel. But I don't know, if Bill Posley is talking about it on TikTok, how secret could it be?

That's a good point. Do we trust this Bill Posley character? Is this guy, is this guy like, sometimes people get off Survivor and like, you know, Rodney from season 30 is drinking his own pee, you know, like, like, do we trust this guy? Is this real? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, Rodney really is drinking his own pee. I don't know if you've seen this. He's cleansing himself and you know, it doesn't even make logical sense either. I don't understand it, you know, but, but he swears. And it's probably there are other aspects of this routine, which I can't even say. I don't want to be in your audience. Is that wrong? Drinking your pee? It seems wrong to me. I don't know. What do you mean?

I mean, I feel like that you're such a smart guy, but then you also didn't know how big a gallon was. So I don't know if maybe you're the expert. It's true. It's very academic. So, okay, we don't have to get in the nitty gritty, but I feel like it's like the dirty stuff that you're trying to get rid of. Right. So why would you re-consume the dirty stuff?

We need to get Rodney on here. I could get it if you maybe you were in the desert. Right? No, I think it's like drinking salt water. It's like a good idea at the time. If you were lying on the side of the road, dying of thirst, Sue Hawk once asked me, would you drink your own pee? I guess in that situation, I probably,

you know who would know the answer? Who? Dr. Mike. Dr. Mike would know the answer who Dr. Mike Right now we need to call dr. Mike hey Yeah, I'm sure he'd be flattered too. I'm sure he'd tell anyways. I'm sorry I don't know what text them all right on that note good night everybody The last episode of Rob is a Podcast ever.

What a run. 15 years. Thank you for joining us for the series finale. I love you all. Thank you so much. It's been such a fun ride. Thank you everybody. Thank you, Drew.

Take care. Have a good one. Bye.