RHAP: We Know Survivor - FEED DROP: Heroes vs Villains: 15 Years Later Ep 1

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

Get ready for a trip down memory lane as Rob Cesternino and Josh Wigler revisit one of the most iconic seasons in Survivor history: Heroes vs. Villains! In this exclusive RHAP patron series, Rob and Josh will provide in-depth commentary, behind-the-scenes insights, and plenty of laughs as they break down the season episode by episode.

It was 15 years ago tonight on a night just like this That the heroes and the villains started an epic battle and a podcast was born Hey everybody, what's going on Rob sester Nino and we are so back to talk about Survivor Heroes versus villains 15 years later with a man who 10 years ago, I talked about a show that was a 15 year old series of television.

Here he is, it's Josh Wiggler. Wow, I can't believe that here we are. Our heroes and our villains are like deep in their teenage years now. 15. This they're celebrating a Quintinera as well. Yes. OK. So, yeah, this is a lot of like math to get your head around. So today, February 11, are you going to sketch this out? Because I need help. I'm not good with math. It's yeah, I'm going gonna like piece it together, okay?

Can you do the like the probe second chance whiteboard real quick? Get the whiteboard out, okay. So today is February 11th, 2025. 15 years ago tonight, Survivor Heroes Versus Villains premiered. The next day, Nicole and I recorded the first episode of Rob's podcast. Wednesday is the 15 year anniversary of RHAP being born.

This is the 15 year anniversary of Heroes vs. Villains, a show that 10 years ago we talked about in the evolution of strategy, which was five years after it aired. And of course, at that point, when we were celebrating Survivor 30, it was the 15 year anniversary of Survivor. So just to get this straight, when you and I did the evolution of strategy, Survivor was as old as Rob has a podcast is now. Oh, well, that feels awful. That feels awful.

That feels awful. Yes. That makes like my, that like liquefies my insides and gives me such a bad stomach ache. Oh my gosh, wow. Oh no. So are we closing in on the 30th season of Rob has a podcast also? I know, well they took the year off for COVID,

so it may only be the 28th. That being said, Surviv itself in Heroes versus Villains is only a wee bit 10 years old. It's it's it's wild to me. Survivor in Heroes versus Villains is as old as the evolution of strategy is now. Yes. Yes. At the time of Heroes versus Villains, Survivor is as old as the evolution of strategy is now. Yes, it feels awful. It feels like death. It feels it feels terrible, but it's crazy

and surreal and wild that this thing is still humming along. But yeah, those are some those are some scary numbers, as we say, so let's just set up what we're here to do today. Okay. So Josh and I are back together talking about old survivor like we once did 10 years ago when the evolution of strategy first started coming out. So we're doing this in the fall. We did a podcast for San Juan del Sur for all the San Juan del Surs. Each week we came on on the anniversary of a San Juan del Sur episode and we did it in the main feed. We did it for people. But really I San Juan del Sur episode. And we did it in the main feed. We did it for people.

But really, I feel like it did not have. We did it for the widespread appeal. But I heard from a lot of people that love the podcast. They really love the podcast. So loved the podcast is like their top pod of the week, for sure. Without a doubt. And so we said, OK, well, if we're doing this for the people who really love the podcast, those are the people

who are the heartbeat of this community. That is the patrons and so true heroes, the true heroes, never villains, the patrons of Rob's podcast. And so Josh and I. Josh and I, this spring time, is it spring yet? Spring has sprung. It's spring season. It's the spring semester. A rosy look about it.

Yes. Okay. No, that's in November of Marquesis. A rosy look. Right. But we are, and Colby was bringing her in on a bird, I think. Unbelievable. Yeah. So we are going to each week Bring you unless nobody says they like this If we get no pulse whatsoever, but I think the patrons are gonna love this Whatsoever then we are going to disavow any of like that aging ourselves that we just did that's done

We're doing this for the patron. We're doing it for Monica. We're doing it for the patrons. And so we will drop for you our recap of the anniversary episode of Heroes vs. Villains for you each week for these next couple of months. And maybe we'll have some fun surprises. We'll get to look

back at what was happening on RHAP at that particular point in time as RHAP was just being born into the world. But a twinkle in the eye, Rob, I think. A twinkle in the eye. And of course we'll have all sorts of ways that people can comment back on the show and we're're going to post these right onto Patreon into the Patreon podcast feed, which if we're going to drop this in the regular podcast feed so people know what's going on coming on later on this week. But if you want to get it on the fun, Rob is a website at com slash patron.

And I would love to use the comments feature on Patreon for people to leave feedback. So we'll post the show and then where the show is posted, please leave us your feedback and questions and all sorts of comments on what you thought about the episode. Yes, because I love validation, Rob. Yes, we need it. Much like any other podcast, I love validation when I'm like cold and scared

and can't sleep at night. I just go around looking for validator to validate like anyone who will just like sit with me and validate me by the fire. A lot of sweet validators, I have to say.

So spoiled for choice. Yeah. Yeah. This is for, this is for the base. This is for the RHAP patrons who have made it possible, certainly for the past decade of RHAP, but I would say this whole 15 years greater as we are on not just from Heroes, Villains, but the inception of RHAP. So if you wanna hear this pod,

this pod is for the patrons. If you are not a patron yet, great incentive to become one. Yeah. At the five hour level, at that base level, you will get this weekly podcast that I think is gonna be fun. I think it's gonna be interesting to see

what has changed about my outlook on Heroes, Villains. It's been much longer for me than it has been for you since you've gone back and watch this. I know. Well, I can tell you that I've watched it every five years since it came out. So I watched it in 2010 when it aired. I watched it in 2015 when we did the Evolutionary Strategy.

I watched it in 2020 when we went back into the top 40 countdown. And here we go five years, every five years later. I don't know what I'm gonna be doing in 2030 but I have a feeling I'm gonna be watching Heroes vs. Villains. I have a feeling you're gonna be watching Heroes vs. Villains too. I think that I'll be watching Heroes vs. Villains again with you in 2035. Heroes vs. Villains 2, is that the theme for Survivor 50? Maybe, listen, you jest, you jest, Sesty. But I think that this is a really fun exercise to go back and watch HVV now. It's good timing. It's good timing as you know, another.

We know no rumors. We know nothing. We just know it's common. So maybe like we just like we did the evolution strategy. Let's just like will some stuff into existence, right? to the evolution strategy. Let's just like will some stuff into existence, right? Like, let's like use this as an opportunity to like speak value towards Survivor 50. Let's get a few takes on the record that in about

a three hundred sixty five days will be like, oh, actually, you guys blew it. You said that wrong. Which one of these people can I say is my favorite survivor of all time only for them to go on survivor 50 and do something? Completely cancelable. I'm curious to know Well, we love that also if you have like cold takes exposed from the evolution of strategy Please let us know in the comments specifically about heroes versus villains with things We said well that'll never happen and then it happens a million times since then,

or is about to happen in something that we, you know, in the next year and a half or so. Another thing that I'd be curious about is, didn't we re-listen to our heroes versus villains chapter and do a podcast about that as well? Yeah, I think that that was maybe at the end of the evolution of strategy that we went back and went back and listened to.

Our third pass at Heroes versus Villains together. Well, I don't think we didn't watch it again, but just listen to it. We listened to the podcast about the audiobook. Can I say one more thing? Sure. We're on the topic of just some

setup. And one of the reasons why I'm very excited about this is you mentioned the project that we affectionately called Stan Juan Delser, a really, really fun retrospective on Survivor Stan Juan Delser 10 years on the ways in which that season's history has changed and morphed based on people who've come back since then. With Heroes vs. Villains, only tenfold. We're going to be doing all of that. An iconic season. Get to talk about some all stars and all star permutations. That's going to be really fun.

But the thing I am most excited about this, Rob, is that we're not moving on to Worlds Apart. No, no, we don't need to do that. That's fine. Good. That's good. I like fine.

Yeah, I don't know what is that. Do we need to put that like a dirty 31 patron level? No, I won't do it. I still want I have seen All right And so we're also experimenting with the idea of maybe creating some more niche Content here on patreon if this is something that our base likes to listen to also let patrons know that

we haven't Promoted this too much, but the Evolution of Strategy is available for patrons to listen to at the $15 a month patron level that is on demand for you to listen to if you really want to hear Josh and I's old takes. We're so good at this, Rob, that we're on streaming now. We're on a streaming service. We got EOS on a streaming service. The Disney Vault 300 hours. It's all back there if you want to hear that. OK, but let's talk about Heroes versus Villains. And gosh, I really enjoyed this going back and watching it. It was very fun.

I watched it over. I was making my breakfast this morning and had it on. And wow, this was great. Yeah, I think cold take number one. You ready? Here's my first cold take. Survivor heroes versus villains. Pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah.

This first episode is this first episode is great on a number of levels. It is like it's it's you know, I think that certain people might agree with this. I don't want to speak for everyone and I certainly can't speak for everybody who is out there. But Survivor All-Stars, Rob, maybe happened too fast. Maybe we got there too quick. Maybe Survivor had not yet had room to grow. Maybe we got there too quick. Maybe Survivor had not yet had room to grow. Perhaps it needed to become a 10 year old,

a 10 year old child in order to properly, adequately sustain the all star premise. Not talking about special guesties. I'm not talking about half stars. I'm talking full ass all stars. Maybe we needed to wait for season 20, 10 years in. And the result is what feels like for like now for me, I feel like I'm going back with the nostalgia goggles

to survivor heroes versus villains, the way that I would go back to like one of the classic Marvel Avengers movies. Like it has that. And it is a Civil War. You know, it feels like, yeah, that might be what this one is. And maybe Avengers Endgame is 50. I don't know how it absolutely works. Well, I think that's something that really does help it.

The interesting thing about since we've last talked about this is that we've gotten to see more All-Star seasons since then, and more seasons with returning players brought back, and more seasons with returning players brought back, and then seasons with returning players and first-time players brought in. I think that what really helps Heroes vs. Villains, that none of the other all-star seasons have, is that there's a theme that works,

of that there is, okay, a tribe of heroes and a tribe of villains. Survivor All-Stars was just like, okay, a tribe of heroes and a tribe of villains. Survivor All-Stars was just like, okay, a red tribe, a yellow tribe, and a green tribe. There was no rhyme or reason why the tribes were grouped that way. In Game Changers, I mean, there was just this tribe and there was this tribe. I do think that that helped. Even Winners at War, it was just two different tribes. They didn't try to do any sort of sorting.

And I do feel like that as we look ahead to Survivor 50, I do think like giving it a backbone or a structure is something that can only help the season. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that it's notable to me that of all of those seasons that you just described, and I'm just going through it in my head real quick to make sure I've got this right.

The three tribes ultimately condensed to two and all stars. Yeah, so this is the season that doesn't have a slot. Second chances has no theme of like, there's an overall theme of like players returning for another tribe. Not from group to group. Not from group to group. So there's a storyline that's baked into the theme

at each tribe camp. On the record belief that survivor David versus Goliath is a top five season of Survivor Don't At Me. And while the theme is a little ridiculous, it at least gives you something concrete to work with within those first few episodes. But I think tribe division wise, short of like a brain brawn beauty, I don't really know.

You know, and blood versus water, that works too, when you have like all of the survivors on one tribe, all of their loved ones on the other. I do think that really specific delineation gives you a narrative for those people to bob and weave their way through. For example, like heroes gone bad, right? Like that's where we're going to go with a lot of these people, just slowly breaking bad over the course of this season. With the villains, it's like kind of villains gone worse. And that's very fun too.

They don't swap these tribes. And there's a reason for that because the premise really sustains. I would love to see something like that for 50, whether that's like new school, old school, I think is a really clean way of going. You know, I think that I think with an all star season, it really, it really shouldn't matter because the casting should be so good that it sort of transcends the starting tribes. But if you can hit that sweet spot dead center, you get survivor heroes versus villains.

An immaculate season of survival, just like those ribs in Wu's mouth. Yeah. And the show does, you know, it's a two hour premiere, but it doesn't feel like, oh my God, how long is this? Like, I feel like sometimes there's these new era episodes that really drag on where this does not drag at all. The show really does make a meal out of like everybody coming back. And we spend a lot of time on the helicopters of seeing everybody come in.

And they really do a great job of like propping up the stars that they bring back for this. Yeah, they bring them in on birds, bird back. They're flying them in at the very start. It's a grand entrance right from the jump. We're treating these people not like survivor royalty. The winners, winners at war, they are treated like survivor royalty. A drink before war is never a bad idea or it's always a good idea. Here I feel like this feels like we're throwing the best of the best back in the arena. This has real like Hunger Games,

quarter quell energy. Like these are all people who like I think in those cases, actually they were all winners as well. So the winner's season, you know what I mean? Like they're going back in for like. Well, hard to bring back the non-winners from the Hunger Games. These are the people, it's hard to bring those guys back.

These are the people who are like literally going to slug it out. Some of these people have won. Most of them haven't. All of them would be willing to either pop out a shoulder or get topless on TV to win Survivor. This is the crew to do it. Proven track record. And we hop right into that with like a very physical challenge,

the likes of which I don't think you would ever see again on. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey everybody, Rob Cistradino here. You know we talk about a lot of red flags in relationships, those warning signs that tell us that something might be off. We talk about them on Survivor too. But how often do we stop to look for green flags? What if we focus more on those positive traits

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I feel like that this is always very fun. Yes. One of the ways in which it's very fun are the ways in which the players agree with like Jeff's line of inquiry and then the ways in which it's very fun are the ways in which the players agree with like Jeff's line of inquiry and then the ways in which the players disagree with Jeff's line of inquiry. Like, for example, Rupert, you were on the show so long ago, you're a hero still. It's like, oh my God, everyone stops me on the street and tells me what a good guy.

It's an honor. It's an honor, he says. And then he says, Harvey, you're a terrible evil village. Really? Yeah, I think that poverty gets buried a little bit here by the Jeff respond. He goes like, you led a notorious alliance. You killed the ice cream boy. You did all of this. Tom, isn't that right? You know, like she doesn't even get a chance to reply.

I will say a spicy Jeff is very much here in action in heroes versus villains. There's a few moments in this heroes versus villains premiere where it's like, wow, Jeff would not even spicy Jeff now, uh, would not say what Jeff just said. I do feel like he picks on poverty a little bit here on the mat. He does. Uh, I don't know why, but he has it out for Parv here, I feel like. And you know, like what he's describing about what she's done. Can't you just like look across the mat and there's like Amanda and Saree, like they did though. James, James, you got to back me up here, man. It's like James, Parv is a villain, right? Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it is really funny. And like, I it's been a long time, Rob, since I have been so like personally targeted than when it's revealed.

Colby, you're like you're the old man over the hill. It was 10 years ago that he first played the show. Like, oh, no, really? It's just 10 years on from the Australian outback that Colby is here and becomes the Superman in a fat suit sort of thing. Oh, no. Am I am I Josh Wiggler in a fat suit? I think I don't know. I kind of feel like I've always sort of just been that guy.

I don't know how it works 10 years greater. What is the part that is making you upset? Is it that it's been 10 years? It we've aged. Now it's been 25 years. We've aged. It's it's it's it's tough. This is tough.

It's very difficult. 24 years. And after 24 years, I think like this week, I believe, is the premiere of Survivor, the Australian Outback. And we didn't set up a Jack Bauer style 24 hour watch along party for the 24th anniversary. Yeah, not too late. I'm on call. I'm ready to go.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Has there been a survivor, Chloe? Sophie? Emily Flippen? Oh, OK. been a survivor, Chloe? Sophie? Emily Flippen? Oh, OK. I meant like an actual person named Chloe. Oh, OK. That's great casting for for

the Jack Bauer season of Survivor. All right. So we set everything up. Although Parvati looks like such a baby. Yeah, she's very young. All these people are very young. Yeah. How old is Colby at this time? Do we know? Oh, boy. So I would guess Colby was probably 25 on the Australian epic. So I guess that Colby is 35 at the time of recording Heroes vs. Villains.

Colby is a 35 year old man here on Heroes vs. Villains. Okay. And now he's a 49 year old man. Are people going to be surprised or like, yeah, story checks out when they hear that I'm five years older than Colby is on Heroes vs. That's why I feel sick. Me? Mwah? This? Really?

Yeah, I guess it's survivor is weird because, you know, much like, you know, Matthew McConaughey once said, you know, you keep getting older and they keep staying the same age. So weird. So weird. So weird how that happened. Very odd. Yeah. The match that's very fun. The opening challenge is insanity. It's been a long time since I've watched this season and it's just OK, here's the challenge. Am I older than Butch was in the Amazon yet? Oh, uh, well I'll, I'll do some, uh, some quick tech work. I'll do a quick, a quick. I think I am.

Uh, how many years ago was the Amazon now? Well, I can just tell you from, uh, okay. It doesn't make it. They, so I looked on his, oh, he he was no, he was 50 on the Amazon. OK, you're closing in. Closing in. Closing in. Closing in. Yeah. Does that are you senior fire would deputy bitch?

And I get like that's a butch's call. He can promote me anytime he wants. He can do a field promotion if he wants. Sounds great. Yeah. OK. So. We get this challenge and this is really incredible. And really, I was just really blown away by the physicality of this first challenge, which does like eat up like like 15 ish minutes of the show of this battle, this first battle to start off the game.

And Josh, my question for you is that at the time, this was epic. People loved it, but Stephanie's arm, shoulder falls off. Yeah, her arm falls off. Lupert breaks his toe. His toe falls off. Does this, and we'll have-

Colby's reputation is irrevocably damaged. You know, Mike Barassi gets beat up in Schmergen brawl the previous season. Do we get Schmergen brawl in this season also? And there's injuries. That feels right. Doesn't James like get his knee rocked due to Schmergen brawl? Is so is this the end of Survivor Wrestling?

Does it come up again in the show's run? We do sumos at sea. We did sumos at sea. We'll do sumo. We do see and we do like in the start of Caramo in that there's do they do like they try to like recreate this, but they do it in the water. Like any sort of like rough housing is now in the water. Yeah, rough housing on dirt.

They're not doing anymore. But like water where you could just hold someone down in like a shallow body of water is thumbs up. Game on. We're still good with that. Yeah. But it's so this is like, I don't know if we realized it at the time. And this has happened a lot in the teens, you know, from like really where it was born in the attack zone through where we get now. like really where it was born in the attack zone through where we get now,

like there's an arc to like the end of like just wrestling on Survivor. Yeah. Survivor's physical violence era, right? You know, that doesn't really happen to the same. And I was glad to not participate in it. Correct. Yes. What what would you do? Ruthless aggression era. Yeah. What would you have lost in the ruthless aggression?

Like teeth? Yeah. Well, I guess that's your answer. The ability to walk normally. Yeah. Yeah. You probably at least a couple of T.O.E.S. Yes. So I think it was rough out there. But it's great because it's all such good character stuff. Like this challenge is excellent TV for so many.

Dangerous as hell. Sure. Dangerous fun. But like, gosh, very dangerous fun. Is this is this what Jeff means when he says dangerous fun? I don't think so anymore. No, this is the antithesis of the dangerous fun they have now. This is a truly dangerous level of fun where you are getting to see what Surrey is willing to do to knock somebody down, what Sandra is willing to do, and even what Sugar is willing

to do. Everybody across the board, different like tactics, Boston Rob surveying from the back. It doesn't quite work for him. Great metaphor for how it tends to go for Boston Rob, either him watching everybody like a hawk gets them to the end or gets them cut out early. So just like the character arc stuff, I think is summed up really well in this challenge. Coach, I'll never forget that this is probably the phrase that I took out of our time recording the Survivor Seasons on TEOS the most is frog marching. I use that in like my daily life.

Coach, frog marching. What do you frog march? I don't like when I like frog march a task across the finish line. Like I just ripped it across, Rob. I just like brute strength that existential dread across the line in order to get the goal accomplished. That's me coaching Colby every single day at work.

For you, I should mention. I'm frog marching the people for you, Rob. That's what I do. You put me out there, and that's what I get out there and do. Colby's not gonna be Colby anymore. That's his story, right? He's going to be able to be taken down by checks notes. Coach Benjamin Wade.

Really? Even like Randy won't be able to get over this. No one's going to be able to get over this. So just like the moments within this one challenge, I think do such a wonderful job setting up everything else. Sandra, I wasn't sure if she should be a villain. She should definitely be a villain. Great on ramping towards her

her rise to to clean them in this season. So so much good stuff here. Not just like the like the visceral nature of it, just like what it says about everybody. Russell playing dirty. Yes. Russell, like trying to rip Tom Westman's leg off. Yeah. A couple of like Greco-Roman wrestling moves and like like Russell was like going for like the sharpshooter against Tom Westman. And then Jeff is like, hey, play fair. Yeah, play fair.

That's some great a parenting right there. Yeah. And I wonder like left to his own devices. How far would Russell have taken it? Oh, pretty far. I think far. Yeah. Quite far. Ultimately the, uh, Coup de Grace is, you know, sugar is like one shining moment in survivor heroes versus villains comes as Sandra undoes her bathing suit strap. And then she just runs off with a lot of blurring in this challenge. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. Uh, sugar, super blurred here.

Super blurred, uh, topless, uh, finger rockets to the sky, uh, blast off great stuff, an iconic sugar moment to your point, probably the last great sugar moment on Survivor. But what a way to go out. What a way to go out. Top note. Any injuries, Stephanie, famously with shoulder coming out of the socket. Yeah, you see that. With the toe.

I feel like with the shoulder, I feel like do you see the moment it happens? It looked like I saw the moment that it happened. I was not looking at it with that. It looked like it looked like you could see it. I don't know if that was just me being like seeing something that I knew was coming or if I actually saw that or not. But like if I saw it, it was quick, it was subtle. But I thought I saw it this morning when I was watching it. I was really grossed out.

Yep. And Rupert with the bad toe on the first day, but I'm not getting taken out of this stuff. No way over one. Yeah. Rupert is good in the confessionals though. Like, you know, it's been a minute since I watched him on the show and he's good on like he really is. It's slower. Colby also gets a ton of confessionals. Colby is so great in the confessional. Yes. An evolution of mine is that when it comes to Survivor is that I care so much less about the strategy and the gameplay anymore and so much more about like the iconography and like these huge narrative beats and all of the stuff that makes Survivor so iconically memorable.

So like the strategy stuff in so far as how it makes like incredible TV, that's in pole position for me. So somebody who is not like a remarkable strategist, but is going to give killer confessional and be like disruptive in other ways is going to be really high on my list of people that I'm loving watching anymore. Colby fits that profile here to a T in Heroes vs. Villains. Like he has a tough season, but he is like a king when it comes to the confessionals. Rupert is the same way, but I was really, really struck by Colby and of course by my coach. There's a lot of really great coach content here in this first episode.

I can't really put my finger on what is different about it now. And I don't know if it's because that a lot of the confessionals are either talking about the game or talking about like Backstory, but just like hearing these people talk about just like what's actually happening and Their own like like Colby's unique Spin on how he looks at the game of Survivor and And even though he's not like reinventing the wheel, I could just listen to him. He's a great storyteller.

Yes, that's what he does. That's what he does. Full till. I don't know. I think that there's probably something to it. Like there's so much focus on the game, the game, the game, that like that tends to be what we're narrating on the show as opposed to like, here's a whole bunch of chickens

and let's narrate like the hunt. You know, I think that like, even the way that here is villains get set up at the jump from from Jeff of like this. We're in Samoa where old grudges go to die. Right. Like he like gives you like the history lesson of like the ancient rivalries. Like, I'm not trying to be old man yelling at cloud about changing locations anymore. But I think that there is a sense of adventure that exists in so far as you're playing the game of a lifetime, but not the sense of adventure in you are going to the edge of the Earth and learning the secrets of an ancient history and being there and having that vibe. Colby's going to say, not on the show, but after the show, that he didn't enjoy doing

this so much because he wasn't allowed to explore and wander around. I think that there's something to this being a transition moment, heroes versus villains. We're working towards an era where that journeyman stuff is going to matter a little bit less. But this season is populated by a lot of the people to whom being a journeyman was the sauce was the reason to do this. So I think that there's just like that level of passion that still exists on the show here at the at the ripe old age of 10 that I don't know where it is at the really ripe old age of

25. 35. Yeah. You can rent a car now. Yeah. You can get international driver's license. Okay. Um, at the Villains Camp, we spend a lot of time really now giving Russell some spotlight.

And Russell, of course, has come off of some I was watching this and Nicole and Russell of course has do it. Come off of small. I was watching this and Nicole who of course started the podcast with me when we were watching this I was asking her like hey do you remember watching this the night that she said she did she might have been humoring me. But just like watching this in the real time was just incredible. And to see Russell now to go from like you was just all Russell all the time for, you know, three or four months prior to this.

Now here he is with the with the returning faves. Yeah, he's here with the returning faves. He is out here claiming he's the he's the best. I'm the best ever do it. Everyone's got someone above their sport. Michael Jordan. Mm hmm. Michael Phelps. All the Michaels. Michael Douglas.

Probably a bunch of other Michaels. Yeah. Yeah. He's Michael Jackson. Too soon. Yeah. He is the Michael of the survivor. Too soon. Yeah. He's the Michael of survivor. Mm hmm. Yeah. Survivor Mike. He says that that I'm a villain.

I think villains are smarter than heroes because they don't mind stabbing somebody in the back to get where they want to get. It's a fact. It's a proven fact. Google it. Google it. Yeah, I should probably look at chat GPT. Yeah. What does Google say? Are villains smarter than heroes? Let's see. Google it.

Don't do the Gemini. AI. Yeah. Sometimes it hallucinates the the the Google AI machine does think that and just like stating it as a fact, villains are often portrayed as being just as intelligent, if not more so than the heroes. So yeah, I think Russell. That's why I said Google it, don't go on Bing. Is it possible that chat GPT and the Google AI machine trained on Russell Hans? Because I think it would explain so many things.

It would explain why the illustrations have so much trouble with drawing hands. Hands. They can you could always tell by the hands. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I Russell is a fucking hard. Can I drop a hard F in the patron feed is a terrifying notion. Oh, my God. Mm hmm. I don't like I don't even like GPT.

I don't even like little chat GPT hat. No. AI Russell. No one build a Russell, but I can't see. We're already doing new material. There was no talk about pants, but GPT in the evolutionist strategy. We couldn't have fathomed it. Oh, I could have. I've seen a lot. I'd seen a lot of Terminator at that point.

But but yeah, hard to picture. Hard to picture. OK. Russ is Russell's Russell's on one. Russell is like right back to old tricks. like I didn't even need to like see Samoa recently enough to like just like be brought back to like Russell Hans stomping around the jungle with like a big old stick looking for shit. He goes around doing like the heroes versus villains version of the dumbass, the quote unquote dumbass girl alliance that he put together in Samoa. He's going to Danielle, who was like this close to giving me captain of sports in this first episode, but didn't. And then the stuff with poverty is really the setup

with poverty is really good. Yeah. Just to just build off of the Danielle stuff for a second, that, you know, when he goes to talk to Danielle, it's just like, I remember, like, here we go again. He's back. He's back to his old tricks. He's doing it again. Yeah. Yeah. The Russell and poverty relationship is formed here. And, you know, it's like she says she clocks it from the jump. Like, okay, I think I'm making a deal with the devil. Yeah. Yeah. She knows. I mean, she's she's that's what it's it's not Mike Tyson. It's Brett. Oh, Mike Tyson above the sport. Another Michael. Yes.

You know, that's not Mike Tyson. That's poverty means that Mike Tyson should watch out for the for the knockout punch. Like know who you're dealing with. Russell Russell. I'm Jake Paul, bitch. Does Jake have a brother named Mike, you know, he's he's coming in real hot on the heels of as has been discussed numerous

times believing he had won Samoa. Right. Like he coming in. I'm on a hot streak. I'm going for two in a row. Yeah, you know, you're about to get it. You're going to get to the road for sure, but good job. Great stuff. Yeah.

OK. But this is, you know, peak Russell also. Russell is like among the survivors that I would like to interact with IRL, the least like very, very, very, very, very high on that list for me. survivors that I would like to interact with IRL the least. Like very, very, very, very, very high on that list for me. I almost kind of feel like I would watch the show again. Like, you know, like he's I know he's like awful, like, you know,

and like really on the edges with it now, I think. But like he's he's like such magnetic villainy. Yeah. And also like him, like him thinking that he I'm the best and having like something underneath that that's actually true, but not being as good as he thinks makes every single time shit goes awry for Russell Hance, the lectable in a way that just isn't for almost anybody else. An iconic character. You just can't say it any other way. You know, the thing with Russell is that, you know, in Russell, there are two Wolf Russells. And there is like, I do think that there is a part of him that I think could go out there and play ball and give you a great show.

The problem is though that when it doesn't go his way, like when he feels like that he has been screwed or it hasn't gone the way that he wanted it to go, like I just think that there is like a missing like sportsmanship part of it. He lashes out not when he lashes out. It's it's no good for anybody involved himself. Yeah. People he lashes out on. Correct. And it's just too big of a risk. Like I would love it in a world where Russell we could see Russell play again. Yeah, in like,

you know, maybe a enhance, you know, enhanced Russell. You know, it's sort of like where you get this in. And I know that this is not your type of video game, but in like wrestling video games. And it doesn't matter what people like did, like, you know, you can have like, you know, a a royal rumble in a wrestling game. And it's like, here comes Prime Hulk Hogan and here comes, you know, somebody here's here's John Cena and here comes, you know, like the latest and greatest.

And they're all like in their peak. You don't have to worry about what are they like? What's what's Hulk Hogan going to say now? Like, you know and you don't have to worry about like what are they like? What's what's Hulk Hogan going to say now? Like, you know, you don't have to worry about this stuff. It's just like a simulation. He's not in the Survivor board game, is he? Russell, no. Yeah. Once upon a time, he would have been a survivor card game.

What is what is Jeff got against Parvati? Huh? I don't know. It feels like that's a real diss. Yeah, I don't know. And it's not like that she did other shows because there's a bunch of people that did other shows. So I don't know if it was an oversight or what the issue was. But anyway, but Russell is great here at the peak of his powers and very fun. He's just monstering around all over the jungle. Yeah, okay. So at the Heroes Camp, we get this long sequence about catching the chickens. Yeah. The wild chickens and hens that roam about Samoa.

Yes, so we get a hunting sequence. Everybody with a net. A net? And yes, it's a damn good chicken scene. That's how out of practice I am. I didn't even give you a damn right away. Damn. Yeah.

My gosh. You got two hours of episode here. We've got room for a chicken scene. And it's a great scene and it's gotta be, it's a setup, right? Did we, do we think it's a setup that they just like put chickens there on Heroes Beach to get a scene? I Know that seems like the Occam's razor to me. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I feel like unleashed the chickens

I mean that three chickens and a rooster like seems very oddly specific and a if it was just a coinkied ink. Yeah. Incredible that a coinkied ink that shows up is the exact reward in numerous survivor seasons. Tom is going to be involved in the hunting of these chickens. This is going to be among the high points for Tom Westman, I think, on his time here on Heroes versus Villains. What? Catching the chickens Westman, I think, on his time here on Heroes vs. Villains.

What, catching the chickens? Yeah, I think so. I didn't really think he was the MVP. I'm saying that he doesn't have a lot of MVP moments. But he has a couple. Don't totally understand. He has a couple. Sarie's going to get something coming her way. Meanwhile, at the Villains camp, we get a little bit about Coach and Jerry might have a connection. This really doesn't go anywhere.

It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Did it ever really go anywhere? I don't think it really went anywhere. I think that there's a little bit of like back and forth between them when it comes down to voting out Boston Robb where they're not on the same page for that. But I don't remember there really being like they sort of make it seem like that it's a potential romance between

Coach and Jerry. We got robbed. Yeah, we got robbed. And it never went anywhere. I don't know. I know of it would have really like I feel like for You know, and I don't know what coaches like dating History was at this particular point in time or Jerry but I think that it would be the kind of thing that if they could like got together like after the show like in social media and Social media survivor social media was really just starting to get ginned up at this point, where I feel like that like during like Survivor token chains is like a little bit of like

when the Survivor Twitter, there's like a little spark of the flame, you know, whereas Rupert's using up half the magnesium of the flint and trying to get it going. But in these next couple of years, it's going to turn into a really active place to talk about the show. Yeah. And you think that a coach and Jerry coupling could be a mother quake. Especially like Instagram. I don't know what year. A Ben and Jerry quake? I'm not sure. A Ben and Jerry quake? Ben and Jerry quake. Yeah.

When did Instagram really start to take off? Like 2012? Yeah, something like that is what that feels right. So I think it's very funny to imagine that. They're a little ahead of their time. That scenario, that alternate reality where they were really able to milk this. I also love how it's like on the immediate other side of like, oh, coach, I saw what you did to Colby. You know, it's just like very funny in immediate other side of like, Oh, coach, I saw what you did to Colby.

You know, it's just like very funny in that regard, too, of like, who's the cowboy now? So fun stuff. Yes. OK. Yeah. All right. So back at the hero beach, we had a little bit of the gameplay going on. JT and James, they have an alliance. Yeah. Is this where JT's starting to get into like his confesses? Like everybody's out here thinks I'm going to be a good guy.

I'm actually going to be a bad boy this time. No one's going to suspect it. And there's nothing that you can do to stop it from being bad boy. I feel like we start getting into some of that with JT. Like we plant the seeds of like evil JT. Yeah. You have to have a dark side somewhere.

You have to be willing to sacrifice some of your integrity to make it far in the game. I mean, I don't think he's wrong. I don't know that you have to, but I think often you're confronted with a moment that you got to do a thing you don't want to do. And how do you handle that? That's not just that's not just survivor up. That's life. Yeah. But I feel like that this is a mistake for JT to be able to come back and do that.

Because I think that like, and I don't want to like mince words, but I feel like that for JT, like I think that he can like should be thinking about it like hey I got a pretty good reputation people feel like that. I'm a straight shooter and I think that I can play with that a little bit out here doing this like I don't need to go completely 180 and go completely the opposite direction and play a difference like I Have an opportunity that people don't think I'm capable of, people think I'm just like gonna just throw fastballs.

I may throw a couple of curve balls and get some people off guard in this game. What do we think about JT here on the other side of watching JT's third and up to now final appearance on Survivor? Does game changer JT do anything to clarify any of your feelings on Hero JT? So I don't remember the exact circumstances with JT,

but I do think he does try to be like a little bit of like in the way that he's gonna try to give Russell the note. He's gonna try to get up and go talk to Brad Culpepper at a tribal council and ultimately sets off the chain reaction of events to send Malcolm home at that one. He gets into it with Michaela over the sugar. Which Sandra sets up, right? It's the sugar setup. She frames him on the sugar. I don't remember the exact circumstances if she's like, oh, let's eat all the sugar and

then JT will blame Michaela. I'm not sure if that's exactly how it went down or that's how it worked out. Yeah. I think she did some kind of frame job. That sounds familiar now that we're talking about it. And he got like real lost in the sauce on the sugar stuff. That tends to be a downfall for JT. Yep. And so look, I made that joke in. Evolution strategy. Yeah. Sugar sugar got him twice. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, JT, he's firing on all cylinders.

He's he's ready to play hard. Colby and Candice have some great conversation and Colby S. Candice, you know who any of these players are? This is funny to me today as it was then. This is like me talking to any

R.H.A.P. podcaster now. Like, so those guys were on Survivor 43. Wait, is that one from 45 and that one's from 43? Were they on the same season together? Like the way Colby is talking about the people he's playing with is how I feel about new Arab people having been gone for a minute.

It goes both ways. It's like, I'm not playing, bro. You need to do your research. You need to know who you're up against, sir. Yeah. And I think that in Survivor 50, I mean, you could see it go both ways, where you could see old people being like, who are these new people? And you could see new people like, who are these old people? Yeah, that's that's Rupert. Yeah. Um, what could be interesting?

Yeah, yeah. That's I do like I love the idea of like an old school, new school for that reason. And like, could you just have like the the the the new the new kids on the block, not the band just out here, just like sort of. I got the right stuff, baby. You know, like I think like getting like their shots in at the old guard, I think would be fun. But this scene with Colby and Candace where he's like, I don't know any of these people. And Candace is like, I know like a few of them.

Yeah, Candace and Danielle are just here on the show and it never like kind of gets mentioned like when anyone's like trying to like question the theme or anything like what are they doing on their tribes? But it works out. Just go with it. Just go with it. It works out. It works out. Tom and Steph, they reconnect after Palau. Tom goes to JT and he says to JT like, Hey, we got to stick together because people they're going to vote. If they're going to vote for a non-winner against a winner. Yeah. And like, if we go up against a non winner, the non winner wins no matter what.

So like, does he think about that? Does he? Yeah. Sure. About that, Tom. Why? Sure. But that's why. Mm hmm. Yeah. Because he like has any non winner is going to beat a winner in the end of this game. And that's not entirely well. Well, maybe do they all think that they're choosing

between three winners at the end anyway, you know? Did Russell tell people that he won some of them? I'm on here. There's villains. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But well, what if they went to the end together? Let's say JT honors the pact agrees with Tom, the two of them go to the end together,

like they need a third winner. Otherwise their votes are getting split up. So this is maybe not the strongest long-term plan, but it feels like a very honest Tom Westman plan. Yeah, Tom I think is fun in this game. I think you get very good sense of like how Tom sees the game in terms of like how he approaches heroes versus villains.

And you know, we've talked so much about Boston Rob on reality TV games from the Traders and from Dandy and how he approaches it. And I think that Tom Westman actually has a pretty similar sensibility about how he approaches the game of I'm going to like really play this straightforward. I got to establish the leadership straightforward. I got to establish the leadership and then I got to take out anybody. If you're not with me, you're against me.

And if I go out, I go out. But this is how I play the game. This is how I got to do it. I'm not going to pussy foot around this. Do you have your winner rankings anywhere handy from TOS? Are they available to you? I know that Tom was at the top for so long.

Yeah. Maybe I can find it for coming back into I think I'm you know, it's really it's very hard, Josh, because I feel like that the game is so different. All the way. Yes. From from that. That was how you could win the game in Survivor 10. I don't think that's how you could win the game in Survivor 48. It's a different thing. could win the game in Survivor 10. I don't think that's how you could win the game in Survivor 48. It's a different thing.

It would be one of the worst strategies to have in Survivor 48. I really bring it up just to underscore my memory of the praise heaped upon Tom, not just during the Palau chapter of TEOS. But when we got here, I think like his losing game, my memory of it is being impressed by his losing game. I don't know how that'll hold up now, but I love seeing Tom on TV. He's great TV. Yeah, we'll see. He doesn't quite have a run like Sandra in Game Changers, but, you know, he's an early boot, but an impressive early boot.

Yeah, yeah, impressive early boot. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. OK. All right. Let's go to the Villains tribe. And we haven't talked at all about Rob Mariano in this season, at least his name just came up. But we'll talk about him here and Boston Rob builds a fire and he does it. And Randy is like, no, don't even waste your breath. I love Randy. Do it.

And do it. Should we just skip this? Should we just should we just not? It's a 39 day game. I'm sure we're going to get fire at some point. Yeah, I'm kind of like Team Randy here. Like, sure. And any sane person is Team Randy here. But I Any sane person is team

Randy here. But I think that that's what's so remarkable about Rob in this season and really where he comes back. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about Rob's reality TV career recently from going back for the traders. And I just wrote this article that we

posted on the confessional reality TV newsletters dot com. I ranked all of Rob's games from reality TV. He's played on nine strategic competition shows, five times on survivor, two times on the amazing race on dealer, no deal Island and on the traders. And I ranked them by the level of control that he has. And so Rob plays in Mark cases. He plays on the all stars has like a like this incredible run on All-Stars But doesn't get the win the bitter jury gives it to Amber

They come back and they play two seasons of the amazing race So there's a six-year layoff for Rob between Survivor All-Stars and when he comes back here in Survivor Heroes versus Villains, and he's a little bit of a different guy. I don't believe that he's a dad yet, but he's married. He talks about how Amber said to have patience. Amber, I'm trying. I'm trying. They have our kid at that point. But he is a different person in that he is a little bit more of like in the era of the professor.

He is now a person who is like not just like and from him. He was I put him in an article I wrote about the Mount Rushmore of survivor confessional givers. He always had an ability to connect with the audience and talk about, you know, hey, this is fear, you know, it's better to be feared than loved straight out of the Godfather. and talk about, you know, Hey, this is fear. You know, it's better to be feared than loved straight out of the Godfather. You know, he would always do that, but now he's like explaining the game to us. And, and he does a lot of things of like telling us, so he's going to tell us about where people sleep in the shelter, keep an eye on that. And so he really is a

little bit of like our survivor guide. and he knows that this tribe needs to make a fire. He always likes to paint himself as like, here I am the only person that knows what they're doing in a tribe full of idiots. You know, that's one of his favorite things to do is talk about how he's the only one that knows what's going on and nobody they're all coaches doing Tai Chi and, and, and poverty is sitting on the floor and nobody's doing nobody wants to work He's the only one that wants to get a fire going that he wants to you know light a fire under the stripe literally and figuratively and

He's going to just by his sheer force of will get this fire started I'm sure I told on the evolution strategy that he tried to do this in survivor all-stars It didn't work there, but he does. He uses the bamboo saw back and forth and gets the fire going. And it's an incredible scene. And it's like that you had doubting Randy and like the survivor, the survivor editing and edgy.

It's like so perfect here. Here's Randy's like, nah, it can't be done. Rob is like, watch me. And he does it. And it's like in that moment, coach has the man crush. You know, he's completely, you know, he he is a strong man. And he is going to like vie to be the leader of this tribe. But he has also provided stability and comfort for the group

so that they are, you know, going to follow him because he is a provider for this group. Yeah, I think and tell me if you feel differently. I don't know that like, I don't think that like knocking stability is a move that he leans on very often. Like I think he builds stability, he builds like these impenetrable fortresses and then protects the people inside the fortress so thoroughly that when it comes time to execute the people inside the castle, they are understandably miffed and don't love being on the chopping block themselves. What differentiates him between, you know, I think like what gets him to that point is providing whether it's

like food or fire like you're talking about in this circumstance, or providing a sense of like power within the game. I think that he takes from these people, but he also gives. I don't think that Russell is at all interested in giving. Like, you know, when he talks like poverty, he's like, do you trust me? And she's like, yeah. And like, well, I don't know that you do, but the point is you will someday, you know? And it's like, he's like, he's like sort of approaching this

with an inevitability to his, his war path that he just like, just like the tides turn, just like the earth rotates on his axis, so too will Russell Hance ultimately claim control over this game. That is how he views it. That is to some extent how it goes. And I think that he talks about villains being smarter because we're willing to stab people in the back.

He is like the great survivor example of if I have truly no scruples, if I don't have a single ethical concern, what can I get away with? And it turns out the answer that is a lot. And I think that that's just it is like there are commonalities between him and Rob, but there are things that are so different between the two of them too. And that distinction between the two of them is already on display in this first episode. Rob and Russell,

they're such an interesting pairing because there's this dichotomy between them. It's almost like that they are in some ways a mirror images of each other where Rob will gain power and control in the tribe by starting the fire. Russell's way of gaining power and control in the tribe is to put out the fire. Yeah. Of there will be chaos, that they don't have fire, they don't know what's going on, I'll be in control of the thing. Rob wants there to be calm, he wants there to be order and through that order he will lead. Russell wants disorder.

He wants everybody running all over the place and he thrives in that environment. And so these two guys are going to give us, you know, this in this battle of heroes versus villains in this one tribe, we're gonna have our own mini battle of a hero versus a villain. Yeah, ironic that the bandy-legged troll is here to drain the swamp, right? Like, that doesn't feel like what he should be doing, but that seems to be his thought, right?

It's like, disrupt the way that this is done. Break the wheel, as Daenerys might say. So, yeah, that's what he's here for. Once the wheel is broken, he'll pick up the pieces. Rob wants to keep the wheel rolling and make, you know, everybody unity. Yeah. And look, and Rob will ask the team to make sacrifices that he

himself is not always willing to make, but he wants there to be this team spirit, a team that's following him as opposed to Russell wants there to just be a fractured team that is like all over the place and doesn't know what it's doing. Yes. Yep. OK. All right. I'll be back in the Rob versus Russell era. Wow. Yeah, very funny. So just a quick question real fast. So just a quick question. Real fast. You say Rob was the professor here in this season.

So like 15 years on, what is he now? Adjunct. I mean, he's there like he's just the head of the in terms of like. Yeah, the the you know, he's the best to ever do this stuff. Yeah. And he's idle. to ever do this stuff. Yeah. And. I don't know. The headmaster, the chairman of the board. Yeah. CEO.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I just feel like that the body of work, the success and you know what he's going to do is not always going to work every time, but he's going to give you really great TV and so I Just like I have a real appreciation for his career as a reality TV star. Yeah Okay. All right No, but just nobody else has done like you may have your favorites and and and certainly everybody's entitled to that

But nobody has a body objectively. Nobody has the body of work. It's a it's a it's a big history that he brings to the table. Nine seasons on these competition reality shows. Nine. And I'm sure there's people that have gone back for the challenge a million times, but he's done it now across all these different franchises and been able to do so much with it. Not even counting Robin Amber against the odds or celebrity home renovation.

You didn't rate those shows in your. And that's nine seasons as a player. I didn't even count Survivor Island of the Idols. You did an unofficial ranking of that appropriately. I mentioned honorable mention. Yeah. Yeah. OK. All right. Robin Sandra also speaking of Island of the Idols, they make a bet on whether or not coach should could get the coconut out of the palm tree.

Are one of these people like is Matt Van Wagner on the beach at this moment, like producing this this scene? And is he looking at them and does he go like. All right. I think that their heads might look really cool as like big, giant. No, I mean, it doesn't want a second time. I know. Is no one looking at this moment being like, like in like in the edit bay? Yeah. And I thought you were saying, is anybody on the beach be like, Coach? No, no, no, we cannot lose you. It's day two. Yeah.

Yeah. But as I'm watching this and again, some we could have talked about this on the evolution strategy. OK. Rob and Sandra are going to 19 seasons from now go to the island of the idols where they will share the island together. Should this have been more of a part of island of the idols where Rob and Sandra make bets on things? The one thing they did make a bet they're like, Sandra's like, I bet that a woman is going to win the season.

But should that have been more of a part of it where, like, they're making their dollar bets like like there have been a prize for Rob and Sandra of like they're betting on what's going to happen. Yeah, probably would have been one way to gamify that. Yeah. Like some sort of like, I mean, I'm obviously still very confused about a lot surrounding that season. But I think like I have a lot of confusion around were they were they really, really, really, really, really out there like that the whole time?

That would have gotten so viciously boring for both of them having really nothing to do. Both of them such competitive people too. A lot of dropped balls on Island of the Isles. This doesn't crack the top five, but I do think that it was a missed opportunity. If you were going to bring these two back. Yeah, not to like, yeah, not to. I like that she calls him Boston Bob the loser. Yeah, Boston Bob the loser. Mm hmm. OK.

That's where he got his anti Bob. He's like, nobody calls me Bob. I hate all Bob's. Yeah. So it's if I ever meet another Bob. Yeah. OK. So on the Heroes Beach, get some nighttime stuff. Sugar needs a protector.

She just needs someone to see. It's cold at night and they're in the shelter. Mm hmm. And there's a couple of pockets of body warmth. Mm hmm. And Colby's there. And so she goes after Colby and Colby is like, this is the most annoying person I've ever met. Colby doesn't hate this. I know your name is sugar by Hershey bar.

I know. I know. I know. met in my entire life. Colby doesn't. He hates this. I know your name is Sugarbine or Hershey bar. Yeah. Yeah. Have I used that line before? I don't know. Have we used that line before? I don't know. Could be a first. Could be a first. Yeah. Yeah. He hates this. He hates this so much.

Okay. Tough with your sugar. Like she's just kind of like stuck. She clearly like doesn't feel great about being here in the first place. The heroes, they are going to eat the chicken before the challenge. They're ready to go. Have we done in the past?

I would I would wonder. I would imagine this wouldn't have skipped what it wouldn't have missed my radar. Chick like the cooked chicken looks like crap. It looks like a really bad job on the making of the cooking of the chicken. So we have it. So he has like one bowl filled with like a really foul looking piece of foul. Go back and look like it looked pretty dirty to me. Yeah.

OK. It seemed like maybe it was just like it was just. Inside stuff like it is. Look, don't waste not one. I guess I guess I just got a little icked today. Something something about the birds right now. But the chicken. Yes, certainly. Damn is what I say when I read the news about the birds these days.

OK. All right. So community challenge. Yes. Heroes get out to a big lead, but they can't do the puzzle. Correct. They cannot. They're able to they're able to pull it together just on sheer strength. But by the time the villains get back, they're able to just blow through that puzzle. And Rob is the guy who is always like wanting to be puzzles

before athletic pursuits. You would maybe think that he'd be on the boat squad on a first watch, but no, he's he's a puzzle man. He's waiting to do the puzzle. You know, he's gotten a lot of experience from Survivor, from the Amazing Race, and so he's raring to go. And the Villains puzzle team and Sandra's, no slouch the puzzles either.

They're able to ace out of Suri and is Rupert on the puzzle also? And then Sugar. That was an error. Yes, yes. Well, that would be hard to paddle with. Can't paddle with a bit. So Sugar starts crying and Jeff's like, OK, here we go.

First challenge right on cue. Sugar is crying. And so you would think hearing him say that I was like waiting for him to be like, so what does this mean to you? And like, what are the tears about? Like some sort of follow up question. But in this era, at least Jeff goes boo hoo hoo. Look who's crying again.

Go back to camp. That's basically it. Yeah. So it just like you go cry for me, show go. Is that what you're going to do? You go and cry like, wow, you gonna cry for me, sugar? Is that what you're gonna do? You gonna cry? Like, wow. Yeah, he's not super sympathetic to sugar who's crying. No, whatever like, you know, like life change happens for Jeff where his like heart opens up,

where like he gets to like his end of Grinch moment, it has not yet occurred. Not yet. It's not occurred to me. No, not at all. Okay. So the heroes, they're going to travel council, we get the villains, they're all like celebrating about how what a great day they had. But okay. What are the heroes going to do? Who's going to and Rupert, he's just great at this of just being like when when his team loses he's great at like we were cocky we we came out thinking we had the S on our chest

today. So much Superman talk in the season. A lot of Superman talk. Well he's the ultimate hero. And it makes sense because Lex Luthor is on the other tribe. Hey, Lex, I got you. Oh, yeah. Remember when I told you I would keep Superman safe if I could. Yeah. So Rupert is OK. We got to we got to piece this together.

OK, so people are throwing out some names. OK, sugar says, how about Amanda? Yeah, sugar wants Amanda. Does she have a big reason why? Just like just that's a name. I mean, she's the person who has the most allies here on this tribe. How about Amanda? Right. So Amanda is great to see a band on survivor here. Yeah. Amanda's on offer. Sugar

is being discussed by everybody basically. Yeah. But then there's also like a slow rising conflict between Tom and Suri that that begins as early as the premiere. Tom is saying to Colby like, okay, sure, she's annoying, but you know, who's she bothering? Me, Tom, every night. She's like right up in there, all up in it. Saree is like, tucked right into every crevasse. Yeah, why don't we take out Steph or Tom? Yeah, yeah, Saree and Tom are both like, you know, they're they're they're

looking past an easy first vote circling each other. Yeah. Yeah. And I do wonder about the alternate reality where the heroes come swinging out the gate a little harder. And like, so they like. Like, there's like there is like some sort of humongous upset right out the gate where it's Tom or Suri who goes home first. It's a chilling reality to consider, but it's interesting.

It's interesting to think about where that could have taken them. If like they got some of those jitters out right away of like a big sort of like shady move that claimed a huge pelt immediately. I don't know what that does for the trajectory of the season as for Sugar, who's just like a consensus 9-1. Yeah, I don't know if the right move for this and I feel like I've always sort of like err on the side of like, Suri and Tom needed each other.

They needed to work together. But just for a devil's advocate, did Suri or Tom need to move sooner? Should like should what? Like this is a little bit like a prisoner's dilemma. Like, should one of them had said, you know, forget sugar. It's Tom tonight. That's it. Yeah, it's it's Suri tonight. Yeah, tonight we make our move.

But it's hard to, I think, be that. Declarative with this group of as Boston Rob calls them like this bunch of egos here, like how do you tell this? How do you tell this army that I'm the one in charge? Yeah. And how much are you know, the JT and Colby like really driving like, no, it has to be sugar. It's sugar. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I think that there's just, there's a lot of, there's a lot of extracurricular reasons why I think that this was just going to

go the way that it goes. But it's interesting to think about, like, if if Tom is just like able to, like, effectively put his foot down and convince enough people or if Suri is able to do that and convince enough people against Tom, just like, how does that impact the momentum of things like the heroes come out just like swinging harder and like maybe not in the way where like it then gets like really painful in the next episode. I don't know. Like it gets very contentious with these guys really.

And I think there's people in the middle that aren't necessarily willing to do that. Like I feel like so could could Tom, you know, get, you know, okay, Colby and Stephanie on board and then like by way of like that kind of needs like like James and JT but JT is or James is like kind of looped in with sari from the Micronesia people by way of Amanda you probably can't get that That middle part they're not really connected to Rupert in that way So they don't really have the numbers to get sari at this point and sari I don't really think has the numbers to take out Tom, who I don't think the guys are going to go for because they need him for the challenges. Stephanie ultimately is going to be who they get next time. So it just doesn't see and sugar is doing enough

to make it easier for people to write her name down. Who would the time numbers that you could you could envision if he was trying to go right now? So obviously Stephanie and Colby. So he has them, and then you would think that the next people that they would probably try to get into is probably the JT James group. Where is Sugar in this, and then where is Candice? Candice seems aligned with Suri throughout the pre-merch.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe, yeah, you could get Sugar also, and that gets you to four, but you're gonna need at least one or two more. Yeah, and Colby's not able to work those charms with Candice after they're like, chat in the woods. No, not yet. Okay, we did Tribal Council and KG tribal council.

Nobody's really saying too much, but there's a couple of fun moments. Amanda really, you know, gets a pat on the back for her best tribal council performance ever. Yeah. James is like, wow, he did good here. Usually you're bad at this. Yeah. This is a little meta, you know, acknowledging that Amanda's had a couple of difficult, important tribals. Yeah. Maybe hasn't brought her best self to.

Yeah. Not a live tribal council. Nobody's really giving Jeff too much. Is this was it the mat chat or is it here where Jeff's like, oh, James, you learned something after going home with two idols in your pants? I think that's in the match chat. Yeah. Yeah. So ultimately, we're going to vote.

Jeff says, by the way, like, hey, it's rather look at this travel council. Look, we're open. The sky is open. It's going to we're going to get rained on a couple of times this season. And so by the end of the travel, it's a downpour. Everybody's talking downpour. Everybody's talking about monsoon. Monsoon. He called it. He called it.

I think I think I think Jeff like thrives in the rain. I think like you know, like it. I think like when when Jeff gets rained upon, it's like holy water upon him. Like it just activates his powers. I think he loves it. Yeah. All right. We get the votes, the vote read.

And I'm not sure like how much this was like endemic to what they did at the time. We get sugar, sugar, sugar, sugar. Amanda. OK, maybe it's turning. No, it's so. Yes. So I feel like that almost never in the modern era would we get so many sugar votes before we get that Amanda vote. Yeah. Well, also, you know, one of the reasons at least is because the tribes are so small.

It would be like, OK, sugar, Amanda. Oh, OK. Yeah. I mean, it's always one one. Yeah. Unless like it's sort of like that, you know, had sugar played an idol, maybe start to read the votes that way. Yeah. But I think it's it did feel weird to me. I mean, it felt like very undramatic. I think for like such a dramatic sugar could have played the shot in the dark. You know, oh my God. OK. Yeah. What happens if shots in the dark are in play? Let's do that. Shots in the

dark are in play? Let's do that. Shots in the dark are in play. But was Sugar blindsided? Like, I feel like, did Sugar know that it was gonna be her? It feels like Sugar can sense it, right? She's gonna say in her final words that they picked the right person. They picked the right person, but I don't think she necessarily knew.

I think we have to go back to her exit press about if she you know, like does she want to be there? Yeah. You know, it's been well documented. She had a very hard time after all this. And so, you know, it was a tough situation for everybody involved on that one. But yeah, that's the premiere of Survivor Heroes vs. Villains. And this was super fun. Monstrous, monstrous episode of TV.

I had a humongous smile on my face basically the entire time I was watching it. Rob, I single speeded this thing. I was so happy. I just wanted to lean in and luxuriate in my first trip back to Heroes vs. Villains in a decade for me. So much fun.

The two hour episode is only 30 minutes longer than the regular episode. That's right. So, you know, that's the thing on these rewatches. Now these one hour episodes are going to fly by. 100%. 42 minutes. You kidding? Yeah, they're like, leave. They're going to fly. All right. So we're going to be, if you're listening in the Rob's Podcast main feed,

first off, thank you're listening in the Rob's Podcast main feed, first off, thank you for being subscribed. But we're moving over to just the Patreon starting next Tuesday. So if you want to be there for that, go to robitswebsite.com slash patron. Just one of the many patron perks you get for becoming a part of the greatest reality TV community in the world. In addition, in the world in addition in addition in the podcast feed you will also get weekly ask Rob any things which become the

Survivor Q&A and I do like two plus hours of taking questions from everybody that calls in Tone of great strategy questions. We have a ton of fun doing that. We do the weekly patron five for five We have watch parties for all the different shows We make it so easy for you to watch the international reality shows Which are coming back Australian Survivor is gonna be here in just a couple of weeks plus the greatest Patron community the early access to the live show tickets coming up in Boston and the patrons are gonna get the first access to those tickets. I mean, probably like it's like 15 other things that I'm not even thinking. What can what can what can beat that?

And if he needed the extra push to become a patron of R.H.P. Boop, that's me, that's me pushing you. I'm going, oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like pushing you right down and telling you, hey, we're going to have a great time talking about one of the greatest seasons of Survivor with, I think, a lot of new stuff to say. And in a really compelling moment in the history of this franchise, right at the gate of 50.

So I'm hyped. There's there's there's just so much fun stuff ahead. I cannot wait. And I really hope that if you're listening to this and if you enjoyed this, that you'll take the plunge and join us in the Patreon because we have a great time over there. And it couldn't be easier. You could try it free for several days at the five dollar level and you can cancel anytime. Okay. That's my pitch to you. The people who may not yet be part of the greatest reality TV community in the world. Okay. Josh, yeah, we're waiting for you. And of course, also you could become a patron for free and get access to our free post that we post

from time to time at Robsoebsite.com slash patron. Okay, all right. Josh, anything else that you wanna say tonight? Quick shout out to your buddy Dina. There's a very quick shot of Dina at the opening that I'd forgotten. It's like they show like all of these like flashes of like, here's James being strong. Here's Colby being strong.

Here's poverty being strong. Here's Dina. The Jabiru women. You know, it was great. It was a great moment. It was a great moment. But I was like, huh? You're not here.

Should have been. Should have been. Yeah. Okay. All, should have been. Yeah. Okay. All right. Great times. Thank you so much for joining us. Again, leave us your comments on Patreon.

It's very easy to post your comments there. We love to read them and we will be back next week to talk about episode two of Survivor Heroes Versus Villains 15 years later. Thank you for joining us. Take care of a good one. Bye. From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of with the sportsbook Born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM.

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