RHAP: We Know Survivor - Is Boston Rob the Survivor GOAT?

Episode Date: June 21, 2026

Is Boston Rob the Survivor GOAT? The debate over who truly deserves the title of Survivor’s greatest of all time heats up as Rob Cesternino and Mike Bloom turn the spotlight on Boston Rob Mariano. In this episode of the ongoing Survivor GOAT series, Rob and Mike dig into the long-running Survivor legend’s influence on the game, examining strategy, legacy, and what it means to be the face of Survivor. With just five legends left in their countdown, this conversation dives deep into nuanced gameplay, cutthroat moves, and the lasting mark Boston Rob leaves on the franchise. Rob and Mike open the discussion by comparing Boston Rob’s outsized presence to Babe Ruth’s status in baseball, noting how his iconic leadership and aggressive play have shaped entire eras of Survivor. The hosts explore Rob’s journey from early trailblazer in Marquesas—where he makes the shocking move to oust tribe leader Hunter Ellis—to his dominant winning game on Redemption Island. They debate whether Boston Rob’s all-or-nothing style, which relies heavily on command and control, is truly the most effective path for every player. The episode also unpacks memorable moments from All Stars, including Rob’s legendary deal with Lex, and contrasts his brand of gameplay with more under-the-radar winners like Vecepia Towery. The discussion turns to how Boston Rob adapts (or sometimes doesn’t) in new school Survivor, including his gameplay on Winners at War and even reality competition crossovers like The Traitors. – Mike Bloom argues Boston Rob’s “larger-than-life” impact and compares his influence to Survivor’s host Jeff Probst – Key discussion of the infamous Lex betrayal in All Stars and whether that ruthlessness is repeatable today – Debate over Rob’s ability (or inability) to pivot when the power structure shifts, especially in modern Survivor seasons – The hosts weigh the value of a style that is all agency and dominance versus quieter, adaptable strategies – Deep look at the psychological side of Boston Rob’s gameplay and whether his skills are truly portable across all eras The big question lingers: Is a playstyle that’s “all or nothing” really the blueprint for the next Survivor legend, or does true greatness require an adaptable game? Rob, Mike, and Survivor fans everywhere are left wondering if Boston Rob’s approach can stand the test of Survivor’s ever-changing landscape. Stay tuned for more as the GOAT series continues, and don’t miss next week’s deep dive into Parvati’s case for Survivor’s top spot! Chapters: 0:00 Who Is Survivor’s GOAT? 1:05 Boston Rob Chosen as Contender 3:19 Defining Criteria for Survivor GOAT 6:32 Boston Rob’s Redemption Island Domination 13:44 Boston Rob’s All or Nothing Philosophy 18:48 Boston Rob vs. Legends in All Stars 20:20 The Lex Betrayal: Iconic Move 28:07 Rob’s Origin: Voting Out Hunter 34:01 Should GOAT Skills Be Transferable? 35:16 Evaluating Rob’s Winners at War Game 56:31 Boston Rob’s Unmatched Survivor Legacy 1:00:14 Rob’s Challenge Dominance Highlighted 1:03:42 Preview: Parvati as Next GOAT Contender To order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

Hey, everybody, what's going on? Rob, Sastrino, back with you. We're talking about who's the goat. And today we're going to be talking about whether or not it's this guy. Hey, Sustanino, you know what to do. The man who's going to make the case, you got my back, Mike, okay? Mr. Mike Bloom. Yes, Rob, happy Father's Day.

Happy Father's Day to you. As we talk about arguably the most famous, survivor dad as well among 751 contestants, so much so that he's had the most amount of survivor babies four times fold. Yep. So happy Father's Day to Boston Rob Mariano. We'll be talking about you here today as we continue our series exploring. Who is Survivor's greatest of all time? We have narrowed the pool down to five people. This is, we are right in the middle. Okay. This is the third of five episodes where we are talking about who is Survivor's Goat. Earlier in this series, we started in reverse alphabetical order.

We talked about Tony and Mike Bloom made the case why Tony is the goat. Then last time out, I made the case why Sandra is the goat. We flipped the coin. Mike aside came up heads. And so Mike is going to be telling us today why making the case for why Boston Robb is the greatest of all time. and I will be in the unenviable position of having to play devil's advocate and tell you why maybe he's not. It's interesting to say unenviable, though, Rob, because I feel like your opinion is just going to represent the large amount of online survivor discourse that we've seen for the better part of at least the past like 10 plus years, right? Yeah.

Listen, so, Mike, I'm not going to do your job for you and tell you why Rob is an all-time. I thought you were just going to supplicate yourself. No, no. But the idea of pacing possible wrath from him off camera. We've narrowed this list down to a top five baby of that in this is the, the list of five to pick from. And your one through five may differ. But I think that the actual number one has to be one of these five. Yes, I think demonstra.

Even that's the argument I sort of made last week when I was also in the unavailable position of being anti-Sandra. is like there's no denying any of these people are top tier legends of their craft. That's when we really have to, you know, split hairs here and figure out who is the greatest among them. Yeah, and there's a case to be made for all of them and there's a case to not be made for all of them. And that's how this podcast started.

So today we're talking about Rob Mariano, a person who's been a survivor staple for these 25, I guess, maybe 24 years for him in this game. And I think that of the five people we'll talk about, he played the earliest. Oh, yeah. And he's just been a staple in Survivor

since the very, very, the single diggies, as they call it. Yeah, I'm so glad you bring that up, Rob, because I think that perfectly segues into my opening argument here. A segue more digestible than Fafaru, though that's not saying much here. Because, listen, I've done a lot of fake. over the course of this week. When I was deemed this role,

I really had to chew over, again, much like that Fopper, this idea of, what are we doing? What are we looking for here? Exactly. And so this is the podcast. We're trying to figure out who's the goat. That's what we do now.

It's the off season. And so I thought much like Survivor evolves in the criteria that they try to use, I thought I'd take a page out of Survivor's book here and try to shoehorn in. The VR rule of? Oh, if only. If only.

I mean, that should be like my, rest my case. He wrote the book on how to win Survivor. Before it was cool and everyone was doing it, looking at you, Rob. But I'm going to try to fit a syllabus into this, much like the show briefly tried the little period, right of like, oh, well, it'll play out last in the final tribal council.

I wonder, Rob, and look, everyone's criteria is different. But when it comes to analyzing who is the goat, there are three pillars that I chiefly look for. personally. First off, there's a very weighty one, much like Outwit was, about just like general body of work. This is gameplay. This is strategy. This is social components. This is for some people, physical components, individual challenge wins, longevity, etc. Then, I think for some

people, there's entertainment value. Survivor is a TV show at the end of the day. I saw some people in our Sandra video comment like, Sanders should be given bonus points because she burned Russell's hat. There is something about enjoying watching these people on television that I think boost their legacies even more. Certainly people have changed the game. There was an entire season about it, but there's something about these five that also are such fantastic personalities in their own right that also vault them into the top tier. But the third one that I've spoken about many times as well is legacy, is longevity in the mouths of these fans, let alone in their hands, as well as innovation. And so, great is a term obviously that can be applied to quality as to the best player who's ever existed.

But I want to challenge that a little bit and talk about great in the sense of size, immensity, gravity. And I cannot find a person who represents the word great in that capacity more than one Robert Mariano. A person who I would say outside of Jeff Probst is the face of Survivor. He has played the most American seasons in six seasons, one as a participant, yes, but was there for 36 days. Someone who has, in my opinion, the biggest character arc in Survivor history and just so happened to put together the most dominant single season performance in the show's history. That is just icing on the cake.

And so I'm here to prove to you not only, you know, why Boston Robb's gameplay is so supreme that it forever changed the face of the show, but also why his entire presence has made Survivor what it was. I'm looking forward to it. Okay. Well, let's get into it then, shall we? Because I am going to go back to what I mentioned before. And look, we have two-time winners here.

I very much understand it. But as I mentioned before, I am looking at quality. instead of quantity here. It's the way we split these hairs when it comes to analyzing the top five. And it cannot be denied the absolute masterclass that Boston Rob put on

in Survivor Redemption Island. Okay. I don't know if there you have any counter arguments to present at the top here. Listen, I would love to hear about the time that he as a fourth time player played against a

incredible crop of new survivor talent. Well, I take your sarcasm sarcasm literally here. Because, yes, I do want to counteract some of those arguments. The first being that there is going to be asterisk attached to all of these people, right? And I think that Boston Robb, yes, it was his fourth time playing, and he's up against

a crop of entire newbies. But if, you look at every other season that has functioned by this captain's theme, right? Which is, okay, two, three, four returning players are playing against a group of newbies. Yes, a good amount of them have made it to the end. None of them have won with the exception of Boston Robb. You even had people like Stephanie, like coach, who made it to the end, who completely floundered and lost out despite the fact that on paper they should have won, right? They had the value of experience. And that's because it isn't just that.

You know, that's something that certainly gives you a lead in the race, but you have to maintain that pace. And the other argument, of course, is that listen, these are not Fullbright scholars necessarily that Boston Rob is playing with. With no offense to Mr.

cultural appropriation himself, Grand Matos, Ashley, who's that Underwood? Nat 10, not necessarily a 10 in the strategic department. very nice person. Very nice person. To that, I say,

A, you sort of have to play with the cast that you are given. I think that people talk to, okay, what's the comparison in terms of single season performance? Kim Spradlin. Do you mean the cast that Jeff supposedly went on the record to say

we cannot cast people this dumb ever again? That cast? Sure. Yeah, that's a really stacked one that makes Kim the best single season performance of all time. The other thing being,

yes, there's been a lot of critiques about, oh, there's just mindless zombies that would do whatever Rob wanted. In fact, Ashley says it in confessional. Is that not by design? Here's what I will say that makes Rob stand out from the other people

that occupy this entire series. When you have people like Sandra, Parvety, even Tony to a certain extent, in winners at war, they had circumstances not go their way that they had to sort of like work their way out of either get taken, to the end or, you know, through immunities or firemaking,

be able to get there in a scenario where otherwise they would lose against, you know, the people that they were going to the end with. Boston Rob handpicked the group that he went to the end with. He sat there with Philip and Natalie, who he pegged, if you watch Redemption Island from like episode three or four, he's literally in a confessional, one of his many this season, saying, all right, these are the two I'm going to sit at the end with, and like Babe freaking Ruth, a former Red Sock himself,

he called his shot and he hit a home run. And so then what Rob was able to do so matchfully here was then systematically say, this is my goal, this is what I need to do to then winnow down everything to get to that point. So yes, was the end game dominated by, for lack of better term, robs? Absolutely.

But that's because Rob made it his mission to get rid of all the non-rubs from the game as soon as possible. I love that you brought up Babe Ruth because to me, that is, I think, the perfect corollary to who Boston Rob is, that he is a figure who at one time is larger than the sport itself. Perhaps its most famous participant in the sport of baseball, both spent time in Boston at one point as well. And you could also make the case that Boston Rob,

broke the curse of the Bambino when he wore a Red Sox hat to go and play in Survivor All-Stars. And the subsequent season, the Boston Red Sox did win the World Series. But that being said, that is Babe Ruth the greatest baseball player of all time? And to that, I also would say no. He may be the most famous baseball player of all time. but I think that he is a figure who was known for the long ball. He also could pitch also. So I don't want to say that he is not multifaceted.

But if you were going to be playing baseball in the year, 2026, would Babe Ruth necessarily be the prototype for what you're looking for? The game has changed. And while at one point that that was what you were looking for coming out of the deadball era perhaps, then a Boston Rob is exactly what you'd be looking for. But I just think that in terms of what you would be looking for for the greatest survivor player of all time, I think that when Rob is able to play his game, he has it on lockdown, command and control, the buddy system.

Everybody do what I say, and everything's going to work out fine for me. when people don't listen to that, that's when we have problems. So certainly there will be scenarios like we saw in Redemption Island when Boston Rob is in the right group with the right group of people who are looking to him set up as the mentor, the leader for them to follow. Hey, stick with me and you'll be safe. And he can deliver on that promise for a while. If you are subservient and do what he says,

you will have longevity in the game. And I think that a lot of times people are seeking safety in these games. We see it in Survivor, Deal or No Deal Island, in the traders, even in the Amazing Race at times, that people want to be safe. They're scared. And they go to him when they are scared. And the people that cross him should be scared because that he will do whatever he can to take them out. But if enough people say, hey, we're not doing this. I think that the whole house of cards can fall apart.

Now, I do agree with that. I think enough people is sort of the corollary here. Because, yes, until Winners at War, Boston Rom never sat on a jury. But I think the situations with which he has voted out is very interesting. As he says, I think this is in Winners at War. Maybe no, it was in Redemption Island. He's like, if these people were smart, they get rid of me immediately because of what I can't do. But they're not smart and they're not going to.

And it is. And that's the thing. It's incredibly staggering. And we talked about this with Sandra last week as well, that the fact that this man's profile continues to grow, that he becomes, again, the most famous contestant face, I would say. Now, maybe now the literal Emmy winner is going to perhaps challenge that in terms of notoriety around the world.

But like you said, in terms of like the empire he basically created, there was a pandemic before 2020 Robin. It was called Romber fever, and it had swept the entirety of CBS as a time. television network. We got Tuesdays of the Amazing Race. We got a wedding special. We got Rob and Amber Against the Odds. He hosted that show called the Ultimatum or something. He was all over the place. But all that is a, we remiss to say,

that there is something to the skill set that Rob possesses. And I think that yes, command and control is something that we mostly know him for. As right, of course, infamously in Heroes v. Villains, he says, if you're not with me, you're against me, which Russell will then use to lovingly co-opt, perhaps much like Walter White wore the garb of the people that he killed over the course of breaking back. Yeah, exactly. But I do think that Rob is able to possess uniquely this very innate ability to read and analyze situations and be able to like continue to have a grasp on it. That's the other thing too. Redemption Island on paper might be

a cake walk. But do you know the work required to make a cake, Rob? It is a meticulous measuring of ingredients, a consistent changing in the flavor profile to make sure that certain things work together and that one ingredient does not sour the cake. It is persistent timing waiting to make sure that the yeast rises at a certain time to make it spongy, but not too dry overall. And so Boston Rob was putting in the work in Redemption Island. Yes, it seems like on paper, okay, this is something that like he just kind of sat back and coasted on his own reputation. But we see this from a show like Big Brother, so does Boston Rob, as we know he's a massive Big Brother fan. Yes. But we get to see from the live feed perspective with some of these players how tough this is to do. He consistently talked about

being this general and this army, but his soldiers are all on paper free-thinking individuals who also have their own desires to win the war here. And so it takes an astounding amount of skill to be able to, yes, well, fear keeps people loyal that's straight out of the godfather. And he certainly makes some impressive moves to set up this idea of

like, if you cross me, you are done in this game. He put it so beautifully with you, Rob, and one of the first podcast he did on this very network, going back probably about 10 plus years at this point, where he said a key facet to succeed in Survivor is that you have to convince someone else

that your idea is their idea. And that, I think, is the key to what he's been able to do and why he's been able to be so successful on so many shows for the better part of a quarter of a century. Yeah. Listen, I don't want to take anything away from the work he did in Redemption Island. And I feel like that you've made that point very clear. And I agree with it that he did a incredible job

in Survivor Redemption Island. And I think that it was the best showcase for his talents of what he was able to do. It was really the perfect landing spot for him to come in, especially coming off of Survivor Heroes versus Villains, where he was shown as like the heroic villain that if they would have just listened to him, everything would have worked out. And so he comes in again with the counterpoint of the other tribe is getting Russell. and so that he is really put in, dropped into this amazing landing spot with younger people, for the most part, who are looking to him to keep them safe, to be their leader, to teach them the ropes.

And so it's just the most ideal landing spot that he could, at that particular point in his survivor career, where he's so hungry for the win. And he works tirelessly for 39 days to ensure that it happened. He didn't luck into a win in Survivor Redemption Island. hustled his ass off to make sure that it happened, it just happens to be the perfect landing spot for him to have been in to ultimately capitalize on his skills. Yes, but we should also say here that this was not the first time that Boston Rob sat at a final tribal council. And look, we can certainly talk about the way things ended, but as much as we are impressed by, okay,

everything that he was able to do. And I think going back to again, that argument of, okay, well, Boston Rob was only able to keep these people in control because they were wildly 20-something newbies who didn't know Survivor, but put him in the rear end.

Let's go to Survivor All-Stars, shall we? If we have to. Apophologies to open up that wound again, Rob, but, you know, on paper, when it is the best of the best, a stacked cast of players, Boston, Rob, and Amber

ran circles around them. like say what you want to about the meta game of getting rid of the winners and fantastic legends ahead of time that was just going to be the natural structure of things but there were no slouches in that endgame either but to watch the grip that these two had around this group not only that but the fact that like technically speaking you're at the final nine and there is a very palpable couple that in a final two scenario you know they're going to take each other to the end above me why would I worked with them. And the fact that they somehow wound up in the final two and were basically only in trouble like a scosh of times over the course of that is astounding to me. And I think

speaks to the amount of skills and manipulation they were able to utilize among a top tier cast of individuals. Yeah, Survivor All-Stars is also a unique situation. And I think we have to go back to the Rob and Amber getting split up and talk about that because that was really, I've called it maybe the most important thing that ever happened on Survivor of that

that moment where Rob comes to Lex and says, hey, you take care of her, I'll take care of you. If you can. If you can. And he trades on this bond that him and Lex had outside of the game and he gets, and

shows that Rob is willing to you know, put everything on the table in order to... So sold out his friend for a stack of greenbacks, as well, to put it. As they say. And that he was able to make that happen. And, you know, it was one of the most important things that ever happened on the show, for sure. And I just don't know if it's repeatable in any way. It happened.

But it also... kind of lost the game in that moment also. I totally agree with that. You know, and I think it was out of desperation. His number one ally was swapped onto the other side. And this is not to bemoan the fact that Amber does put in the work as well. It's not really talked about, but like Amber makes this deal with Kathy. It's one of the reasons why Kathy doesn't vote with Amber of like,

hey, if you vote Jerry out instead of me, we're going to work with Rob and Big Tom. It'll be us five until the end. But I think it does showcase the fact that, yes, was Rob banking a little bit on friendship? absolutely, but like, we talked about Tony and Sarah a couple weeks ago. We talked about all the friends that Sandra has and their ability to rely on past relationships. And All-Stars, yes, I agree is a weird thing because correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't think anyone knew how personal the game was going to get. This was the first time that there was a returning player season in general.

And I think that it's not like Rob was so callous to be like, Lex is not my friend anymore. Like, I think he was legitimately. really conflicted to do this. Even when he votes, Lex out, he's like, I, God, I wish it did not come. He actually looks to step because of it. He took no pleasure in it.

It was not like that he, I mean, he was a little bit in the confessionals like. And he glotes about it to his brother. Let's be honest. A little bit. But he did not take, he did not take any pleasure in it. And I know personally that over the years, he made a lot of overtures to try to, you know, you know, fix the men the relationship. And so it was something where, you know, I think that Rob, I bet would still do it again.

But it wasn't the type of thing where this, he wasn't necessarily like, Hanseen in terms of enjoying what he did. He wasn't, he's not a sadist. And that's the thing is that it was a gamble, right? It was the possibility of having Lex take this extremely personally. But again, this was such a new concept to so many people that you watch that final tribal council. Rob is quite taken aback with how vindictive, I think, people are and how much he made them feel so adversely.

Like, I think I'm reading it at sincerity that I think he feels he walks so much stuff back. And that's what he tells Natalie on Day 39 of Redemption Island being like, you know what, last time I kowtow to them too much. I should have stood up for my game a little bit more. Not to say that would have won him necessarily anything at the end of the day, but yeah, because I do think that those who voted for him, and not to mention, you know, obviously Lex, that bridge was burned,

but someone like Kathy, who was just as betrayed by Rob, if not more, does vote for him in the end. So I think that what you're saying, and I think also what I'm saying, maybe what we have a disagreement about here today is that I think that Boston Rob's philosophy is that he is going to, go for broke at all costs. He's much like Babe Ruth.

He's swinging for the fences. All or nothing. It's all or nothing. And he has very little margin for error where if it works, it's going to go great. He's going to get to the end. He's probably going to win if he gets there because he did so much.

But if it doesn't work, if the people around him just decide, hey, we're not going to let you do this, then it's going to ultimately not end well. for him. And I want to just bring in our conversation that we had about Sandra from a couple of weeks ago. And with Sandra, that she doesn't need to, she may swing for the fences and strike out. But it's not over for her. That she does not necessarily, she has, for a variety of reasons, a margin for error. So she doesn't have to play completely perfect. And I think that it's, I know it's, it's,

kind of counterintuitive, but I feel like that the greatest player of all time shouldn't have to need to be perfect 100% of the time. For it to work. I would say you're talking about, well, okay, I see what you're

talking about there. But what I would first say is that I think it can almost be a credit to Boston Robb, because let us establish this. This is a play style that does not work for 99% of individuals in Survivor. You just invoked Russell Hens,

who also himself invoked many comparisons to Boston Rob. Boston Rob says at the Heroes versus Villains' Reunion, like, the difference between me and Russell is that I played a win, and Russell doesn't. But certainly the way that Russell was able to run that post-merge, burning relationships along the way, very akin to maybe what, yeah, exactly. And that many pieces of wardrobe as well is akin to, on paper,

what Rob was doing in All-Stars. But even in general, I mean, going back to the general, his origin in Marquesis, another thing that should be talked about, again, when I go back to this legacy pillar, is that Boston Rob creates these pretty enterprising moves that had never been seen on the show up to that point. Hunter Ellis carved out a marble, seemed like if you ask Chat GPT, give me the person who's guaranteed to make the merge in every single Survivor season. You know, this was a pilot, this was a Boy Scout, this was the alpha male leader, fantastic and all challenges.

And Boston Rob, again, what I'm giving credit for is that he will look at a situation and say, I don't want this to happen, so it's not going to happen anymore. And obviously, the big power flip that happens with the Road 2-4 is going to be the much more talked-about thing. But this is a pretty dang significant moment as well, because it truly showcased on paper, nobody should be safe. And it also showcased, I think, for the first time for me with Survivor. This was a guy that single-handedly took control of his tribe. In previous seasons, like, in Africa, sorry, in Australia, when you have, like,

Colby and Tina and Keith take over Ogacore. That's one thing. But this was Boston Rob being like, all right, I woke up. I want Hunter out. So I'm going to spend all of today working to get Hunter out, and he's succeeded. And, you know, I know there's a lot of Koda woulda shoulda, if some butts were candid to Nutsmed all of a Merry Christmas. But, like, you do wonder if Madama wasn't such a hot mess,

if Boston Rob goes to maybe one or two fewer tribal councils, he's not in a shit position come the merge, could he have wound up, you know, making it pretty dang far? Because even in his first season, the most remedial form of this man, he was able to pull off one of the biggest coups the show had seen through four seasons. Yeah.

So voting out Hunter is really interesting. It's his origin story. it really is the first time that we get to see how Rob views the survivor world. He's not going to function where Hunter's driving and he's part of it. That doesn't work for him. He doesn't want to play. He'd rather lose and do it his way than just be a cog in somebody else's plan. And so we see him from, and it was a shocking moment when it happened.

I will remember until the day I die of what it was like when I watched that episode. and my mind was blown. And he was such a captivating player and somebody that I really connected with so much as a viewer from the way that he carries himself. And when he did this, it was like, this is a bad idea. Don't do this. But he did it. And you had to see what was going to happen next. But I think it speaks to an inflexibility of that it's his way or the high. highway in terms of how it's going to work out. Like, perhaps Survivor Marquesis does go better for him if they end up. And I don't remember who Hunter was trying to vote out on that vote.

Was it in Giuseppe? No, it's probably Sarah, right? Because she was a bit of dead weight in the challenges. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows how that ultimately plays out? But Rob will never know, because that's just not how he's ever going to look at the game and it ends up when it works it works but when it doesn't he ends up becoming the biggest

target on the board and there's just so many ways where it could go wrong when we're talking about the person that we're saying is going to be the greatest player of all time well let's talk about these other situations shall we uh because we get to the merge of marquesis and there's a lot of credit that should be given to a lot of people for the row to flip, but people might not remember a bit of an overnight excursion that Rob had with Kathy. Oh, I remember. I was going to say, where he plants the seed in her head of, you're on the bottom of that Road Two Alliance. It's those four. I watched them on the same beach for the past, you know, two weeks or so, look what they did to Gabe. And not to say that, like, he's the straw that

stirs the drink. But he definitely, I think, helps get the ball rolling at least a little bit in the camp that will happen the very next week. That will be one of the most seismic shifts the show has ever seen. And again, it's this idea of him sitting in a situation and being like, I'm not cool with the status quo. Let me put in the work to change that. And that does take a lot of gumption.

Plenty of players can sit by the wayside, wait for their timing. But there is kudos to Rob's aggression here. Let's go to his other two seasons. Well, man, can we stay in our cases? Because I feel like that when we talk about the ending of Marquesis, the person who ultimately goes on to win the season, is the, I'm trying to think of the right word here, but basically the person who is the antithesis of Boston Rob as a player,

the person who is going to go along to get along and play under the radar, and the person who is just going to deal with the powers that, be and ultimately waded out and make her moves at the right time. And the person who that is is obviously Vesepia. And so when we talk about, yeah, Rob was the person who was trying to stir crap up. And Vespe is like, I don't want any of this drama. And it ultimately proved to be the better play in terms of not a legacy, in terms of the notoriety that comes with being the face of survivor. But it did end up being the way to win this. season of Survivor. Well, that's what I'm bringing up as well, actually, which is my overall argument

that, again, yes, this type of gameplay is not the optimal way any general player should play. Leave the general out of this, Mike. That's the other, that's the other Rob. God, who would have thought the sliding doors, right? Because I think the story there is like Boston Rob was at a tribal council, and there's a whole Rob Robert mix up. And the general was like, well, I'm from New York. So call me New York Rob, and that became the general. And Boston Rob just, stuck and became a brand evermore. But regardless, I think that the point that I'm trying to make through all of this is, yes, this is a typical gameplay.

So it should be lauded that he has been as successful as he has been because of it. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago with Tony, that like this is not the prototypical way to win survivors. So the fact that he's been able to have this be his play style and succeed in the myriad ways it has in varying capacities across various shows, it's a genet Seque. We call Tony the Unicorn, but like Boston Rob's a chupacabra. Well, he's great at what he does. There's a reason why the producers of these shows love him, because he is always going to

bring conflict. He's never going to, even though they say that Redemption Island, maybe not the most exciting season, but he's going to always be creating conflict and be going for it at every opportunity. You don't have to ever worry about as a TV producer that Boston Rob is just going to sit back and do nothing. And so you love having him on a show. I just don't think that his playstyle, which he is the best at what he does,

is not the best play style that you would advocate for somebody to go in and win Survivor as often as possible. Well, I guess that the question is, is that what the greatest player of all time should be? Should it be the style that applies the most to everybody and is the most successful play style, or should it be, wow, the things you've been able to pull off

is incredibly impressive. And perhaps sometimes despite your personality or due to your personality, only you have been able to succeed because of it. I think it should be a skill set that's portable. A skill set that you can put into any season and almost any era and that you would have really great results from it. I think that where Rob has really done the best,

are these situations where he's looked at as somebody who is a leader, and that isn't necessarily going to be every scenario. I think that he could be in other tribes where other people are vying for that leadership, and that's going to be an immediate power struggle right off of the bat, where he's not somebody that you would say is going to be the person who's going to go far in every single season that you put him in. He's not necessarily going to be a endgame participant in every single season. He's rather all or nothing.

So I want to bring up, speaking of, you know, these eras. Let's talk about winners at war. Let's talk about seemingly his final time on Survivor, because I think we just largely remember, and listen, it was the beginning of 2020. We largely memory hold a lot of this was like, well, Boston Robb shot himself in the foot because he tried the buddy system and it didn't work with adept players like, this, but actually if you relitigate the five episodes that he's

on, you know, there's a lot of talk about Boston Rob can only play from the top down once he's on the bottom he's done for. But like, Boston Rob was low key on the bottom in the beginning of Survivor Winners at War. The old schoolers are outnumbered.

But I think Rob puts together a better performance than people remember. The first day he pulls Parvety aside and is basically like, listen, the last time we were together, it did not work out. Let's let bygones be bygones. Let's make amends.

They formed this old school alliance. He also builds Bridges with Ethan, someone he was shit talking and tackling into a mini pool in All Stars two decades ago. And Boston Rob was able to sit back a little bit. He was not, yes, there were moments where he's like, everybody dump out your backs to see who has the idol. But that, again, speaks to why did they all do that? Why did they just not say?

No, Adam Klein literally has a moment where he says, like, I do not want to get on Boston Rob's bad side. You know, you do not want to mess with the godfather. You come for the king. You best not miss. And so I personally think that Boston Rob came in kind of boxed in from the beginning. Because if you look a little bit to your west, you may see a giant 40-foot statue of him.

And you may not know the circumstances. And Lord knows you don't want to after you've heard about it. But when you need a reminder of like, oh, who's someone that you don't want to let get far, you can see him right there, right then. It's come full circle back to All-Stars where, yes, there was no statue of Richard Hatch, of Tina Wesson, of Rob Cisternino, but a certain reminder of, oh, yeah, no, we've got to get rid of them immediately, but they don't. And it should be mentioned here that I think when Boston Rob, yes, he gets put into a numerical

advantage on his swap tribe. But he's not put on there with any allies at all. Ben and Adam are not sticking together. They're getting along like oil and water, blood and water. And so I think he knew he was screwed. It was a last second Hail Mary. And in fact, the entire pre-swap up to that point was looking for ways to handicap Boston Rob, whether it was getting rid of Amber, getting rid of Tyson, getting rid of Danny, getting rid of Ethan.

But you know who they never got rid of? Boston Rob. And I think that says something. So I want to try to follow your trajectory here on the Boston Rob, where you say that he played back in the beginning of Winners at War. I feel like, yes, he was on the bottom and he was forced to play that way because he started on the bottom. But that playing on the bottom, it was not necessarily like he went along with somebody. else's plan there of whoever you want to say was going to be running that whatever tribe that red was it red or blue who knows seller who knows whatever tribe he was on it wasn't he didn't go along

with whatever the other people were doing he said okay i'm going to overthrow this to get this to a point where i'm running this tribe well yes okay so let me clarify yeah because i do think there might be some somebody there yes i don't think he necessarily was like i'm going to be a passenger for this vote. Ironically, end up given the fact that the first big move he made was booting a pilot. Rob loves to be a pilot himself. But again, it's not necessarily piloting and having the compulsion to do so, as much as it is, like, telling the co-pilot, oh, wow, you're a really good job flying through that westerly.

You know, like, knowing that they were actually on the controls the entire time. And actually, before the swap happens, and again, this is another, who knows what will happen, if they don't end up having another swap here. But Boston Rob, yes, he had just lost basically everyone except Parvety. But there was talk amongst the new schoolers of, we want to get rid of Parvety specifically because we want Boston Rob on our side. And Boston Rob flat out lies to Michelle and Jeremy and is like, you won't believe the crap Adam's revealing to me over and over again.

And it works. They actually are turning against Adam in that moment. So, yes, he's not playing from a position of passivity. He still is going to use the adamancy with which he always is. He can only be himself at the end of the day. But I think that he's not necessarily in a position where he's like, okay, I'm on the outs. Well, I'm just going to keep forcing something in and it's not going to work.

There are subtle things that he does to change that still pays off relatively successfully. No doubt. The skill set is incredible, perhaps unmatched in being able to manipulate. and deceive others. But to what end? Yes, he's able to get through that vote and save Parvety. But when the time comes, the people that he's lying about, ultimately the shoe is on the other foot.

Adam does not feel allegiance to him and wants to stay with him and protect him. So, yeah, he's able to work his way through a thorny situation to, like, rather than go with an outcome that was not his idea, he's going to burn the boats to make sure he gets his way, but ultimately ends up getting boxed in in this scenario where Adam and Ben don't want to keep him around. He's too juicy of a target to take out.

I don't really demerit him too much for that. He ultimately ends up going out right after Parvety and Sandra, correct? Right before. Right before. But basically all three of those tribes go to tribal council, all three of them vote out. It was a bad idea to go to such small tribes in Winners at War. What? No. They lose some of their real heavy hitters.

So, you know, we can't discredit him too much for getting voted out in that spot. But, you know, the point you're making about, like, look what he's able to do, ultimately does have a side effect in that there are people who just do not want to stay loyal to him. So I think that one of the large points you brought up that a lot of people bring up as well is this inflexibility in play style. And that might work in the micro, right? At least the way Rob presents it and listen to might be for TV as well. Because I think that there is a very social side to this gameplay that we don't necessarily see because it's all hyper strategic, bloviating, shit-talking people in confessionals. But like, people are not going to want to work with you if they don't like you. And like, it's very clear.

If you watch Ponderosa through Redemption Island as an example, like Boston Rob builds relationships with people. Yes, that does burn him in seasons like All-Stars. But like, there's a reason why people wanted to bring him to the end, why they felt locked in with him. In the touchy subjects challenge in All-Stars, he has voted, who would you trust most with your life? Yeah.

That does speak to, I think, his ability to be social. But all that is to say is that, yes, in the micro, it might feel like my way or the highway is an inflexible way to play. But I think what should be noted for Boston Rob, and we speak to his overall arc, is that as we've seen as recent

as Survivor 50, there is an alarming few number of Survivor players who can look at a previous performance and say, well, I can't do that. Well, I know what I did right last time, and I know what I did wrong last time. And you think on

paper, again, Boston Rob plays the same way, every single time. No way he's going to learn from his previous mistakes, but that's another reason why Redemption Island was such a master class. Heroes versus villains

doesn't look for an idol, doesn't even know what he is, rather we do Coach Chi, rather we do the social thing. Redemption Island immediately goes out hunting for an idol, and it's something that he keeps in his pocket the entire time.

All-stars plays a game that yes, is great in terms of the control that he has, but burns people along the way and, you know, makes too many promises that inevitably get broken. Redemption Island knows he doesn't want to promise the moon to everybody

or comes up with rationale to justify it to everyone else as to why he had to break those promises. Yes, a four-time player, if you give someone enough chances, could they learn from their mistakes? Maybe. Does that mean they're automatically going to win? Hell no. Do you realize what it takes to win a season on Survivor?

Yes, Boston Mrodden. might have had so much tape to roll back and review the mistakes that he needs to rectify but it's one thing to know it it's another thing to do it yeah you brought up a lot of stuff and I just to go back a little bit

in terms of the relationships that he makes that he is an extremely charismatic person and does do a really great job with building relationships that he will be the person to you that you need. Is it the dad, the brother, the son?

You know, he, you know, he can figure out what you need and give you that relationship. You talked about him also in that he is the person that people would trust most with their life. I think that that's actually one of his best superpowers. He can make you feel safe. Yeah. He's somebody, and I think that this was on great display. in the traders. Remember the challenge that they did with Sierra, where that they were putting the

bugs and the snakes on them, and he got her to calm down, disassociate from what's happening and talk about something else. So that's really one of his superpowers that he offers to people of that, hey, if you are with me, you will be safe. I will keep you safe. I am strong. And if you're with me, you don't have to worry. And it works to great effect for the people who align with him. And I know that I'm not doing a great job right now of making the point against him, but I just want to be fair also when I'm talking about, you know, what he's able to do. But as far as that he's able to learn from his mistakes, yeah, I do think that he has had growth over the course of his survivor career. He comes in as, I think he plays when he's first, is he 25 or 26 in Survivor.

I think maybe. Yeah, in Surveyor. Yeah, so he's 24 in Survivor Marquesis and yeah, he has the growth and wisdom of a lifetime to be able to learn from. And yeah, that is commendable that he's able to do that. The difference is that there's growth among all of these people that we're talking about over the course other years. Look at the growth that Tony has between Survivor Kagyon and Winners at War. So it's great, but I don't think it's necessarily unique that he's able to learn from his mistakes. I mean, I think compared to those other people, perhaps, I think compared to many other people, yes. I'm more so refuting the argument that I think a lot of people tend to say of like, Boston Rob just plays the same way every single time.

He's not able to learn how to not do that. I think, again, there are small shifts he makes in the way that he plays. That should be significant to talk about here, because sometimes that's all that it requires. I would say that he has gotten better at what he does. I would say that he still does not necessarily adapt to what the situation calls for. He's sort of locked in. He's perfected the recipe for what he does to go into your analogy of,

did you know how hard it is to make a cake? He's become a master baker, but he is not necessarily, even though he doesn't have a Boston Rob cookbook, would you call him necessarily to, you know, prepare Thanksgiving? Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see that to a certain extent because I do think that we could look to shows that exist, out here. And look, it is weird to say, like, let's bring in extra curriculars here. But especially

when I talk about innovation and what he was able to do on a show like of the amazing race, where he is able to bring social strategy and manipulative tactics into the show for the very first time. He coerces people to quit a task because he doesn't want to do it. Even something like Dill or No Diel Island, where he had this pretty high profile, yes, much like Redempts Challenge, and only a few people knew of him. But still, he was able to pull off some things with other living, living, breathing individuals that have their own hippocampus, right?

Their own decision-making that is incredibly commendable. That showcases to me that Ram Mariano has, like, a mastery of psychology. He talked about this all the time. He talked about it with me a bunch. He has a degree in psychology. That's what attracted him to the show in the first place. But I think as much as we talk about, oh, he's known for strong-arming.

I think it's wonderful manipulation tactics. And I think that is something that is inherent to what makes a great survivor player. And I think that Boston Rob is one of the most prominent examples of that. Where, yes, you have other players with examples. Tony convinced Wu to take him to the end. Parvey helped convince Eric and Siri helped convince Eric to give up the necklace. But I think that the way Rob is able to do it is so incredibly smooth.

And again, coming from such an alpha-man, personality that on paper you think, I'm not trusting this guy. Like, he's the head hon show. He's clearly trying to manipulate me. It works. It somehow works. Yeah.

Listen, his background is in construction. And he is, you know, done incredible things over the course of his career in that field as well. To say that he is extremely multifaceted, not just somebody who is a reality star by trade. actually has a trade as well. But to the man with the hammer, the entire

landscape sometimes looks like a nail. And so... A Keith or West Nail? Let's let's say more of West Nails. And he will

strike the nails all along the way, even though he never played with any of the nails. He has this this tool set literally and figuratively that he goes to

but the game of Survivor is nuanced. That's not always the best path to go. It can be an effective one and he is the best to do what he does. But there are

many other effective strategies in Survivor and I think when the one road that he knows how to go down ends up hitting a dead end, that's it. And I would love the greatest player of all time to be able to pivot at times.

Well, on that note, do we feel like Boston Robb has given people the power to wield the hammer? Again, I incorporate legacy a lot into my determinant of the greatest player of all time, And we certainly have spoken about how the play styles of people like Tony, like Sandra, have yielded so many similar tactics from so many players. But I feel like you talk about that move that Boston Raw made to Lex.

Not only do I think is it the most brutal move in the show's history. I've got one of the coldest things done in the history of reality TV. Because, again, it had never been done before. There was no expectation that this would have happened. It was very cold in that night in the rain when Lex is just getting dumped on. Oh, metaphorically and literally. But I do wonder then as well, yes, there were plenty of cold calculated players that came

before him and after him, too. But the success he was able to wield there, especially in All-Stars, I do think it makes a massive crater in the show afterwards to showcase that level of manipulation is possible. I don't think Russell Hans feels he has the freedom to do what he can. do without Bosser Rob. I don't think Tony feels like he has the freedom to do what he can do because of Boston Rob. Yes, it's a playstyle that is not going to succeed every single season, but it's one that has maybe inspired the most amount of players out of all the ones

that we're talking about over the course of this series because it's able to showcase the potential of what you are able to do as a survivor player. Yeah, he's very unique in what he's able to do because that there are other people who try to be the strong man, but they don't have the warmth that Rob has also, where that Russell can certainly strong-arm people from the other tribe, but very few people felt like, okay, well, Russell is keeping, they were scared of Russell, but they never felt safe with Russell. And I think that what Rob is able to really combine is, hey, I am strong, I am a protector of you, that they better not cross me or there's going to be hell to pay.

I'm also going to keep my people safe. And that's what ultimately keeps them loyal. And I think there is growth from where he starts in Survivor Marquesis, where he says that fear is going to keep them loyal. It's better to be feared to be loved. But he grows as a player to where he is feared and he's also able to be loved by his people who are around him. So it's not necessarily that people are only staying with him because there is fear.

And we see in Redemption Island that there are people who he is with that also they love him also. They want to be around him. They look at him as their champion and the person who's keeping them safe. You see it in the traitors also where there's a lot of people that, he can't be a traitor. Like, he's the greatest guy. We love being around him. But it's just that if that ever, if people see that the emperor has no clothes, if enough people are just no longer afraid. the whole thing just can fall apart.

Yeah, I can absolutely see that. And I think for me, the main argument I'm making with Boster Rob here is that I think what could make him the goat is less so about, okay, these are all the things he's done across all of these seasons, even though, again, it is still astounding to me he has not been the first boot out of any of these tribes in all of these seasons, especially as that target grows and grows and grows or grows. It's something we talked about with Sandra last week as well. that should be admired.

But I think, you know, when it comes to looking at the goden, how much impact and innovation can be incorporated into what that title means. Boston Rob is one of the most consummate examples of that. Someone who made their debut in season four has contributed to so many of the show's most iconic moments is the most notable player to come out of this show and has essentially made a career out of being on these shows that was kind of unheard of at the time. Certainly people were trying to make it happen,

but Boston Rob actually was, and also be able to kill it there as well, speaks to this very unique, I think very like largely applicable skill set that other people have been able to weaponize to great effect as well. I think the space he takes up in our collective reality TV consciousness

lifts that one win so large, considering his entire body of work and more so what people have done with their work as a result of his body of work to make him from an entire perspective of the unscripted genre the greatest of all time. And his legacy is unimpeachable in terms of the impact that he had on the show.

He is a legend of legends when it comes down to talking about the people that have shaped Survivor over the course of the years. But that itself does not make you the greatest player in the show's history. There's a reason why it takes four times out for him to really hone his craft and be able to perfect this game that he started on Survivor Marquesis. and it just his impact is so strong. I don't ever want to take anything away from this thing of ours that he has helped build to this point. He's built a lot.

He's a construction worker. His style of play is just one that suits him and is perfect for him, but is just one that is so, all or nothing, that it is going to be effective in these perfect situations. But so many times on Survivor, you will find yourself in imperfect situations where so many things can go wrong. And while he is extremely resourceful, I think that I would choose enough.

champion, if I was going to be trying to pick out a person who is going to win Survivor more often than not in the ultimate Survivor simulation. And that's why I can't say that Boston Rob is the greatest of all time. The only thing I have to say, Rob, in rebuttal, is two words, smarten up. Oh, I dropped the puppet. Nice going, sister, I know you blew it. All right. But yeah, fun conversation about Rob, for sure. Yeah, this is a little bit of a heavy lift. So hopefully I was able to make some points. But yeah, this is a tougher one.

But also, I will say I gained more appreciation for Rob upon really taking a microscope to his game. Because I think, again, a lot of conventional wisdom nowadays especially is maybe more general, not the general takes on his gameplay. But there's a lot of, you know, intricacies that were involved in all the things he's been able to do. It's so fun to talk about these greats.

I look at them almost kind of like Greek mythology of, okay, These are their weaknesses. This is all the lore. And it was something that when, in writing the book, that was how, like, the heroes and villains Hall of Fame was really conceived as sort of like, could we talk about these people, like, as Greek gods in terms of how you would, like, talk about all of their legendary stories. And Rob is certainly the Zeus in that analogy.

And I will say, speaking of the thunder, he was able to bring her the lightning, perhaps. I didn't mention challenges. Again, I know it may vary in terms of criteria for a lot of people. I think he is the best challenge performer out of this entire group of five. He wins. Yes, he's competed on five seasons, but he won nine immunity challenges in three seasons. He won four, four, and one. Yes, he is, you know, an athletic guy, but he's actually a low-key puzzle master.

People may not necessarily remember. He is maybe one of the part of the obviously is someone who's very well equipped for like individual endurance challenges, but if you're looking for one of those overall obstacle course into a puzzle type of challenges, Rob might be the best performer out of these five. Yeah, I think Parvety is the best at, that she can, has a superpower to kind of like

disassociate during these endurance challenges. And she's able to really just, is the best to ever do it at that. Rob also, it's probably lost on the individual immunity challenge record that he is extremely effective in the team challenges where both as a captain he wants it more than

anybody else. He is also dominant on the puzzle section of those individual immunity challenges and so he knows who should be doing what. So just as the quarterback of a team that's probably the thing that got lost in this conversation of that and I think

that's one of the reasons why he has so much agency in the premurge is because he's just such a quarterback in these challenges that it just comes with so much respect. Yeah. And I mean, it also should be mentioned here. I know if I've sort of dropped Cape Abe, but I'll go back to a couple of points that I didn't address here. It's like, the moves that he's been able to pull off. Again, we talk about his general playstyle, but things like sending Matt right out the revolving door again, yes, a very cold-blooded thing,

but had so many, so much great reasoning behind it. And again, the major thing was that he was able to get everyone, including Andrea, who he left in the dark the last time he voted out Matt was able to get her on board by basically being like, do you see this loose cannon? This is someone he's able to get rid of. Again, this is someone who's incredibly, we talked about this Tony, very opportunistic. If he sees something, he's going to take advantage of it. We talk about one of the rare times that Boston Rob was on the ropes in All Stars at the Final Five, where he catches Jenna and Rupert talking about how, you know, they're gunning for him and Amber.

And so he turns Tom and Rupert against each other. He instigates a fight between them and literally sits back and, and watches these two big guys go at each other to guarantee that they're not going to be in trouble there. I think that Rob has so many specific individual moves that he's pulled off as well that should absolutely be lauded, especially when, again, compared to some other play styles or maybe not necessarily you're looking at

what are the big moves you made. As you mentioned, he's an all-or-nothing kind of guy and the all has a lot in it. Okay. Yeah, his poker background helps him tremendous, something that he really honed after Survivor All-Stars into the back half of his survivor career. And so he has a keen understanding of the probabilities and when to go all in. Helped a lot with Dondy. Yeah, for sure. All right. Mike, next time out, we're talking about Parvety.

Yes. Another challenge beast. All right. And so Mike has been heads. I have been tails. No, I've been tails, you've been heads. Okay, all right. All right, so just to be clear, okay, Rob is heads, Mike is tails. The person who will be making the case why Parvety is the greatest of all time next time will be. Oh no, and I dropped it in my lap. Does that count? I didn't see it.

Oh, boy, we'll see. All right. All right, it is tails. Okay. All right, so you like that one. I like that. Yes, yes, yes, because I will say, Rob, full disclosure, going into this project, Parvety was my goat.

I talked about this on the Australian Survivor podcast after her second win, her full win. So I'm very excited about this. Joining us next week on the podcast, Jeremy Collins is going to be our special guest as we talk about... Please don't make him the adjudicator here.

I think I know what column he would favor it. All right, so that should be a good one coming up next time. Mike, what else is going on for you? A lot of fun stuff going on with Parade. I did a couple of really fun interviews in this studio. I have the dances to prove it. I saw it.

Yeah, as you want to check that out, I talked with Ezra Sosa, who is one of the new wonder kind, fantastic pros on dancing with the stars. But I also got the chance to sit down, Rob, with some people that you appeared on the podcast, up talking Survivor. So the Boy Meets World Gang of Danielle Fissel and Writer Strong and Wolfredel, they would, of course, doing this rewatch of the show. They have this documentary that's coming out. They had this book coming out.

And I got to make my, you know, 90s kids' dream come true and sit down with them for a very very, very fun chat. So I believe both of those should be up at this point over on parade and on YouTube. Otherwise, you can check out everything I'm doing at a Mike Blume type. All right. And then, of course, check out everything else we have going on, including my rewatch of Survivor Co-Rong, as Chappelle and I have been rewatching co-effing wrong all month long here in June, which has been very, very fun on the rewatch.

Thank you so much for joining us. But looking forward to reading what you have to say in the comments, and we'll be back in one week's time to talk about is Parvety, the greatest fall time. Take care of a good one. Bye.