RHAP: We Know Survivor - John Carroll & Neleh Dennis Talk Survivor 50

Episode Date: April 19, 2026

John Carroll & Neleh Dennis Talk Survivor 50 Survivor 50 heats up as host Rob Cesternino welcomes Survivor Marquesas favorites Neleh Dennis and John Carroll to reflect on the season’s most unpredictable moves and heartfelt connections. As Survivor 50 leans into the theme of duos, this episode dives deep into how both old school and new school strategies are playing out, and what it really means to juggle loyalty, friendship, and competition for a shot at the title. Rob is joined by Neleh and John for a special recap, putting personal connections under the microscope as the classic Marquesas bond is contrasted with today’s high-speed, twist-filled gameplay. The trio revisit the fallout from the duos twist, which shook up Tribal Council and forced players to pick partners with major stakes—prompting tough debates about whether to stick with your closest ally or team up with a challenge beast. They also dissect Coach’s dramatic exit, weighing in on if his larger-than-life presence is entertainment or a strategic liability, and debate whether unpredictability is ever worth the risk. Other highlights from the discussion include the evolving impact of pre-game alliances, how old school favorites like Cirie and Jonathan are keeping pace in a faster, more advantage-heavy landscape, and which challenges or game elements Neleh and John wish would return for this landmark season. Insights into heartbreak and healing in the post-game, the real-life friendships that outlast the island, and Survivor’s role in bringing personal growth and reunions to the forefront all round out the conversation. Among the memorable moments and big Survivor 50 questions: – How the duos twist upended alliances and forced cutthroat decisions – Coach’s legacy as a Survivor character—and what makes a player too unpredictable – Old school versus new school: Is the social game still king, or do you need constant strategic hustle? – Neleh and John’s honest reflections on regret, friendship, and what they’d do differently if given another shot – The rise of challenge threats and strategic partnerships as the merge looms With the jury still out on whether Survivor 50 will live up to the hype, join Rob, Neleh, and John as they debate who can outwit, outplay, and outlast in a season packed with history and high stakes. Tune in to hear who might be voted out next, and how Survivor’s classic lessons hold up in the game’s boldest new era! Chapters: 0:00 Neleh and John’s Friendship Reunion 3:06 Survivor Marquesas Memories and Impact 4:34 John’s Critique of Survivor 50 6:14 Neleh Enjoys Survivor 50’s Evolution 8:11 Old School vs. New School Dynamic 9:26 Duo Twist and Rival Season Ideas 14:30 Saying Goodbye to Coach 4.0 23:09 Neleh’s Favorite Survivor 50 Players 32:03 Survivor Storytelling: Protagonists Emerge 37:05 John’s Ayahuasca and Creativity Journey 49:54 How Survivor Trauma Shapes Castaways 55:24 Chrissy’s Edit and Lack of Control 1:06:01 Which Castaway Plays Like Neleh? 1:14:22 Bring Back the Coconut Challenge 1:18:09 Pregame Alliances and Game Loyalty 1:35:10 Would Jeff Probst Be a Good Player? 1:37:35 Where to Find Neleh and John To pre-order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

We all love Survivor, and in my first ever book, The Tribe and I have spoken, I'll tell you how this little show evolved from that juggernaut first season on the beaches of Borneo all the way into its landmark 50th season. I'm like a storyteller. That's what I do. What role did the greatest players, the unforgettable moments, and Jeff Probst himself have in shaping what Survivor has become today? And what contribution did we play in building this worldwide tribe of Survivor fans? Love you, Bay.

For you future players, I've also included my ultimate survivor playbook to help you win the million dollars, unlike me. It's fine. You know what, dude, it's fun. This hardcover edition is filled with beautiful survivor illustrations in every chapter and is an amazing addition for every survivor collector. I'm a meat collector. Pre-orders are everything for a book launch, so to say thank you to everyone who pre-orders, you'll receive an exclusive digital bonus chapter called the Ultimate Rights. of passage, my personal tribute to all the players who have ever competed on the show, all 751. This is huge.

I needed this. Free order wherever books are sold in hardcover and as an audio book at rob hasabook.com. That's rob has a book.com. Nicely done, Rob. Hey, everybody. What's going on? Rob Sestradino back with you. and we have such a fun podcast for you here today. Of course, Survivor 50.

It's a homecoming for so many Survivor greats. And look, it was a week of duos on Survivor. And so it is so fun to bring in a duo, maybe not so much for on the screen, but certainly off the screen from Survivor Marquesas. It's John and Alia. How are you? Hey, guys.

Good to see you. Hi, John, hi, Naliyah. Hey, good to see you, Rob. And good to see you, John. I talk to you all the time, but it's good to see your face. We just talked for an hour yesterday. Yes, we did. How often do you talk?

Gosh. I mean, we're touching base, I would say, about once a week, once every other week. But then we go on streaks where we talk like almost every day and then we may go a couple of months. So we still stay in really close contact. Yeah. Are you two best friends? I don't mean to define the relationship, but, you know. So I'm the old school.

Like, I, I still define best friends. So we basically have a necklace. Yeah. Yes. That's important. So, yeah. So, no, truly, Nilea is really, truly one of my best friends. Like, we don't just talk about the show.

We talk about life and ups and downs. And if she's up, I might be down and vice versa. and it's best when we're both up. Yes. So, yeah, life be lifeing, right? For 25 years, but I love, love, love, love this human. She's one of my favorite people on this planet. And I didn't win the million, but I did get me on Nilea.

And that's chef's kiss. You didn't win the million, but you also cost me the million and I still love you. So there's that. Something to be said about that, John. When you put a price on friendship, Naliyah? You know what? I, oh my gosh, I love John so much. And I honestly, if we would have had like two seconds to talk, like he would have voted for me. I didn't know I had to say sorry to him. So, you know, it's all good. You would have won. Yeah, that's actually true. Yeah, you're a baby. You just did not. I know, I was a baby. The youngest one at the time. But yeah, you know, he's definitely one of my favorite people in the world. So I'm super glad that we met out there and that we're still so close. Yeah. Well, that's awesome that you two have this for. relationship that came out of the show that's a really special going on over what now that

you played in so you played in 2001 right right actually 2001 yes yes yes November will be our 25 anniversary of playing the game and getting to know each other in a friendship that came out of it immediately yeah you all went to go play soon after 9-11 right pascal had been the American flag, and it was a big moment, and then that was on in the spring of 2002. Yeah, and of course, your season was going to be in Jordan, potentially, and they moved it, and they moved it, and the rest is history. I would love to talk a little bit about,

I'm sure we'll talk more about more cases along the way, but I'd love to get your thoughts on Survivor 50 overall. And, John, what about for you, for Survivor 50, a celebration, 25 plus years in the making? Have you been enjoying Survivor 50? It's such a mixed bag for me because I did not watch 49. And I sort of, I kind of describe Survivor now. It's like the mafia.

It just keeps pulling you back in. Right. So I was ready to just be done with Survivor, especially when 50 started coming up and just the noise and the chatter. And in particular how I felt Sean was treated during this process. Just like it happened before, where he almost made the show. And Sean is another one that I've stayed close with. And crazy part is more recently than ever before.

And part of that came with our docu series that we did, you know, that we can talk about later. So I had a lot of mixed bags. And then I really thought with the celebration of 50 in the hands of the fans and all of that. And it's none of that. Like, it's just none of it. And it's sort of a messy, disjointed, disconnected season. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You cut out for a second, John.

Yes. You were telling us about Sean and the docu series that you said, and even more so recently, and then you cut. Yeah. So more recently, Sean and I have, like, reconnected and developed, like, a different phase of our friendship than, you know, than ever before. And also, I think just where we are in our season of life also has kind of created a new commonality between us. But as to season 50, the hands of the fans, just the way

they went about casting, you know, I would have thought that the season that we would have had for 50 would have just given heroes versus villains a run for its money. And it's nothing like that. I think it's a mess of a season. I think it's a mess of a season. I think it's disconnected. I think the challenges in the idols and the advantages are a hot mess. I feel like there's too many cooks in the kitchen that we're trying to craft this thing. And to be honest, so far, it's a flop. Wow. I was going to say that I just saw Sean like two weeks ago in Atlanta. Yes. He told me he was going to see. Yeah, he was going down there and that he was going to see you. Yeah. And he is always so far.

fun to talk to. Naliyah, how about for you? Are you, too, saying Survivor 50, a flop? I don't think it's a flop. I've actually enjoyed watching it. I mean, there have been some moments where I've, like, sat on the couch and, like,

falling asleep. I didn't just say that. Maybe I worked too hard that day or something, but there has been, like, I feel like the momentum's been, like, a little slow in it. But overall, like, I enjoy it. I enjoy seeing players come back.

I think that, you know, for the most part, they're playing, you know, pretty hard. I know in the beginning I was kind of like, oh, man, I wish they would have represented more of those old school players. Like, I would have loved to have seen more representation from like the earlier years. But once I kind of got over that, I was just like, you know what, I'm going to just sit back and really like enjoy this for like what it is. You know, I think it, the whole show really has changed so much since we were on there. And I'm actually kind of enjoying sitting back and kind of watching how some of the old school players play versus the new school. And I think there's just such like a different dynamic there. You know, as much as you want to say like old school players come back and they like play so different, I feel like sometimes they come in hard.

They're playing more aggressive super fast, almost to kind of like prove that they know how to play like the new way. And I don't know. It's been like interesting just to watch it from like that point of view to, you know, some of the older people that that we've known. But overall, like I am enjoying it. I've been proud of the older school players. who have come back and played. It's not like that they can't keep up. It's not like that they're like,

wait, what's happening now? I don't even understand any of this. So, look, it's not rocket science in terms of like what you're doing out there. And yeah, it's a little bit faster, but I don't think that anybody has been from the old days of like, I can't even understand what's happening right now. I'm so lost.

So I think that they're doing a good job. John, what have you thought about this old school versus new school idea? I've always been a big proponent of it, you know, from the junk. But now, like, we have geriatric school, preschool that are going to play, you know, against each other. But I love it. I've always said, you know, even when the new era, I'm a new school player in an old school body. I would have loved this, you know, as a, as an ADD Gemini. Like, this is just, you know, like my jam.

I would have had so much fun out there. I kept thinking, I've even said this, like, oh, I would have thrived in this particular environment because I have one foot in both worlds. You know, I'm still young at heart and still just go, go, go and all of that. But once in a time, I had done, I don't know what podcast I had done, but I talked about a duo season and actually laid out the whole game of a duo season where you played as a duo, you went out as a duo until merge, and then you would separate and play individually at that point. time. So when they showed up with the duo, I was like, oh, I know how this is going to go down and this is going to be vicious. I mean, this is going to be awful. If you get tagged with somebody who is playing terribly, your game could end simply because of who you chose to be your partner. Yeah. Well, the duos is interesting because they did this twist this week. And I almost feel like that

people seem apprehensive to say, I've had a lot of people say to me, like, don't, don't tell anybody, but I kind of like this twist. I kind of liked what they did. I wonder if that could be fodder for some kind of season, either with duos or Naliyah, what about a season with rivals like this, okay, that they bring back two people who don't like each other and you're a duo?

That would be really fun to watch, actually. So what you're saying like... It's going to emerge and then you can vote out your person that you hate. Yeah. I would love to see something like that. I think that would be awesome. I thought it was really interesting. Like they didn't know, obviously, that they were going to get voted out.

And I think that would have completely changed how they, like, got together with their duo last night had they had known that. So I think going out, yeah, as rivals would be really cool, actually. It would kind of suck because you'd have to, like, learn to trust each other again and, like, figure it out. But ultimately, like, if you knew you were a team, like, you would just figure it out. Yeah, it'd be, I think it could be pretty easy. John, you could bring back a lot of people in that. You could probably have a cast that you could easily. do like another 24 person cast if you're getting rid of a duo every week for the first you know six or

seven episodes i mean when i kind of put that out because it was literally called survivor duos you could then you can expand your cast right in your archetypes and all of that and and then on top of it the dynamics not only within your tribe but with your partner right and if your partner is acting a fool, like, you know, that's going to create these many problems, you know, just amongst a pair. Because when they said match up and we saw the preview, I knew right away this was going to be two going home. And then I wanted to watch how many of them, their antenna was up to recognize. Now, we didn't see the edit that people were talking about, like, is this a double elimination? And I can tell you, 100%, I would have been like, this is a double.

elimination and I would have been hitching my wagon to either the one that could win the challenge or the one that nobody is talking about and is not appearing to be right anywhere. Yeah, I was thinking about you two and the picks that you would make. And I wonder, Naliyah, would you pick Pascal to be your partner in this scenario? Okay. I mean, like you're saying, like if we were out there on the island, like what happened last night. your buddy for the challenge. Honestly, my old school self probably would have if I was playing back in the day. My new school self would not have done that. I would have lined myself with a very strong player that I knew that we could just like get through the challenge fast, especially now that

they have so many of the, you know, obstacle challenges and things like that. Paskill would not have been my first thing. Yes. Yes. But at that time, you probably been like, Pascal, we can do it. I know. I probably would have. I really would have. And I go back to those seasons now. and I was like, man, I was just so young. And like, but yeah, new school, that would never happen. Yeah. Yeah. John, who would your partner have been?

Ozzie, number one. Well, what about, but it's Marquesis. It's Marchesis. Yes. Just like I think the Leah said, if I was playing the game when I was playing it, it would have been Tammy if, you know, but if Gabriel was still around, it would have been, you know, gay. So if this was before episode five, Tammy, after episode five,

you know, Gabor, you know, other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Because they kind of suckered them into that they've done this for the last seven or eight seasons of we're going to do this big multi-stage challenge, we're pick a partner and then you and your partner are going to go through and then

ultimately at the end it's you versus your partner for individual immunity. And then this was a little bit of a rug pull on that because they thought that they were just like, oh, I'm just picking my partner for the challenge. So, hey, great, you know, hey, Christian and Jonathan, and that's a great pair because, you know, you'll do the strong stuff and I'll do the puzzle

and, you know, we'll get our way to individual immunity. But then it turned out that this was, you know, a big curveball for everybody. They not like know that. Like it just blows my mind that, again, we don't know what the edit is and how many of them were at least having a conversation that you think, you know, and did that actually go into the decision making. It would have been my number one, you know, decision at that point. I could guarantee you that they thought about that and knew about that. We just didn't see it. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. So this week, we said goodbye to coach, Coach 4.0. I'd love to get

your opinions on the Dragon Slayer. And if you've enjoyed watching the fourth version of Coach, or you felt like it was his time to go? I feel like it was coach's time to go. I like coach. I mean, he's a character, but part of me is I'm like, is he that unaware of like how he comes across to people, right? Or is it just part of like his personality and wanting to get like the screen time and be able to come back again and like play over and over and over?

Because I do think there is an element to that now that wasn't there before, you know, like you want to say the most crazy things and all that. but I think I was ready for coach to go. I like him as a person, but playing with coach, I think would have been a real struggle. See, I'm not sure. I feel like coach invented that of just saying the wildest things possible and trying to get the screen time.

I don't know if there was a survivor player before him that really came along and was like that, maybe Johnny Fairplay. And the thing about him is that you never knew, was he doing it on purpose or not? I do think that's part of just coach's personnel. I guarantee you he's like, that in real life for sure.

Yeah. What do you think, John? I don't want to ever hear another effing haiku. More haikus? I'm like, at our watch party last night in the theater,

we literally broke out in cheers. Like, it got to the point, to me, it was so grading. Again, but it's the edit, right?

So you don't know what's happening in between because it's very concentrated, you know, and it's on, on on. And so, you know, I look at the archetypes of these personalities that we've seen over the 50 seasons, whether it's coach or Philip or Debbie. You know, we have had other things there. And they're really a volatile player to play with. And, you know, and I just have such a resistance

to wanting to play with somebody like that unless I truly was going to goke them and just use them as a shield. But they're so exhausting that sort of messes with your mind. and it messes with your gameplay. So for me, I would want him out as soon as possible because it's so messy. Unpredictable. It's dangerous in Survivor. And it's unpredictable. You can't control it.

And when they're that self, you know, when they have that lack of self-awareness, to me, that becomes a liability for your own gameplay. And so I was glad to see him take Chrissy with because she's another disruptive because that's not who I'm rooting for. So I was 100% with Surrey. Are you kidding me? It's a two-fer. Get them out of here. Like, I would have been

100%. And I wonder if that's part of the reason why the twist was so popular in terms of what the outcome was in terms of what happened where had it been people where, and there wasn't necessarily like one duo that was two fan favorites that were people who you were like

going to be absolutely gutted if you lost together. So maybe there was no ultimate. disaster outcome for a lot of the fans. With coach, I do just wonder, I haven't spent a lot of time with coach outside of the game, but I have to feel like that the coach experience outside of the game, like I would love to have dinner with coach.

I wonder how different that would be to spend time with somebody like that outside of the game versus on Survivor, on television. I recently said this with Johnny Fairplay. where I said to him, you're so funny until somebody puts a camera on you. And then you become, it's not fun at all. But when you're, the person you are when there's no cameras around, like is this different character. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree. Well, you know, what's interesting too, because I, a few years ago, and I can't remember exactly even how it happened, but coach and I were essentially DMing. And he's a big bourbon fan, and I love bourbon. And so we have a local brewery here, and my partner, Chad, is connected family-wise. So the person owns it was given up for adoption when they were very young. And when that person found out who the birth parents were, we were the first people to meet that individual from the family.

The Britway Brewery has a really special place in our heart. Plus, they do a great job. And they were on the national news. They were doing hand sanitizer, doing the pandemic, and giving it away for free. So, and that made national news. But anyway, I bought a bottle of the bourbon and sent it to coach for his birthday. And just, you know, and you know how our survivor world is. We just kind of all moved together in a random, weird ways.

I mean, at one point, I think a GoPro that you were using for, you know, a minute. And so you just connect with these people behind. the scenes and sometimes other survivors have no idea that you've developed a relationship or even if it's just in passing for a short moment. And so my engagement with him was great. And I loved, you know, his take on bourbon and all of that. So I would have loved to be able to sit with him and do all of that. But I think it's the same thing. You put him in a different environment where it's becomes the cameras and all of that. And a different side comes out. But maybe you don't want to send bourbon to. Yeah. Nalian, can you believe that? Boy,

Coach really lost John where he was getting free bourbon from John. And then John was cheering when he got voted out. Right, John? What the heck happened? I mean, it just shows like you can be friends with John and then he just like wants your demise. I mean, it happened to me. So John is just kind of one of those fair weather kind of friends, you know. But John, if Naliyah came back, you would root for her no matter what she did,

even if she was doing haikus and singing and dancing and doing quotes from history. I would have her medibacked if she was doing haikus. I would be going on timeout, stop production. Yeah, her off the island. Something's wrong. She's having a psychotic break. It would be okay if you weren't rooting for me if I was doing that, John. I wouldn't hold it against you.

Nalaya and I always said, because, you know, remember we had the whole campaign, bring back John and Alia. You know, we re-emerged on something. And here's what happened with that. The reason that all went down is I had talked to our casting director, Robin Cass. And I said, you know, how come neither one? Because I was always pushing Nilea. Even if I wasn't putting myself out there, I was constantly, you know, why has she not been back?

She was 21, a finalist in a really great season. And it's just ridiculous that she's never been brought back, right? So anyway, so we're talking about that. And I said, there's any reason. And this, and Robin said to me, I don't know if she'll ever remember. And she says, well, you're just not relevant anymore. And man, that like stabbed me in the heart so bad because I had never had a human being ever tell me that I'm not relevant. And so I was like, screw that.

So I jumped back onto social media. I built my Twitter, you know, following. I re-engage. It was a site campaign. Yeah, so that's where the campaign came out. And the fans loved it. And we had people picking up on it and people knew about it. It didn't work.

I was still survivor in the world. Yeah. But yeah, you know, but it was a life lesson for me at that same time of like, you know, it can't define yourself by, you know, whether or not you, you know, you get to play again and that you've been, you know, rejected by the powers that be all of that. But I still have connected. I'm still doing this 25 years later. You have no control over.

what they want to do. You can only just control who you are and to be the type of person that could be interesting or not for them. But ultimately, at the end of the day, there's very little that you have a say

in there. It's like a little bit of just like whatever the wills and the whims of the powers that be are, that's what they are. And you really have to dissociate from it. That's it. Give it up to the universe. Yeah, for sure.

And John would have been so fun to see him come back and play because he has been such a major super fan ever since all of that. And he was a large character on our show. And I don't think that, you know, we got to see all of what John really was out there. But, yeah. This episode is brought to you by Tell Us Online Security. Oh, tax season is the worst. You mean hack season?

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Do you have a rooting interest in Survivor 50 in a particular player? Honestly, I have loved Christian this season. I think he has been so fun to watch. So I am rooting for Christian. I think he's hilarious. I loved when he pooped his pants and he just owns it. Everybody does. Yeah, like I just really love those like super relatable characters that just kind of say whatever.

I also like Jonathan a lot. Like it's been kind of fun to get to know him a little bit more this season. I know he's still a little bit under the radar. But I'm definitely like, I think I'm reading for Jonathan too. So I'm going to say those two right now. You know, Jonathan has definitely upped his game since the last time that he played. And I think it was a little underrated in terms of when Rizzo pulled coach aside and said, coach, like listen, we remember, we got to do that.

And coach was like, oh, yes. I thought that Jonathan also was doing a good job handling coach. In the opening scene, and then when, like, I thought he really struck a chord with coach. I'll like, hey, coach, remember, we said, we're going to do this. They're like, oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. So I thought he had the right touch with working with coach, which is not necessarily the easiest thing to do. Well, I agree with you. I feel like, I feel like Jonathan is very like calm,

cool, collected kind of a guy out there. Like he has his eyes on everything that's going on and he just has like, like you said, like a really nice like approach to people where he's a big guy so he doesn't want to come across strong. But at the same time, like you'll see him insert himself in the different spaces that he needs to, but it's just like a little strike backup. Yes. Well, John, I think, you know, Jonathan, he's very polite and always, you know, Mr. Jeff and he's very polite with everybody, but I did feel like that last night with, you know, Rick Devons got a little under his skin, uh, where that, you know, Rick Devons was like, well, I guess, I guess, I was in trouble. And he's like, you're showing your colors too, Rick. Yep. Yep. That's what I'm saying.

So I think he does, he, he's had a, a really incredible amount of self-control. But I do think that, like, under the surface, like, I think he, he can run hot. Well, for sure. That's what I mean by like a strike though like he's got his like fillers on everything but if somebody says something like he's going to attack but it's not going to be like so brutal that he doesn't get to recover back from it you know yeah john did you ever uh go by jonathan you know i got asked that a lot when i was a kid but i'm just a plain old john with an age yeah yeah yeah we've had jonathan john's johnnies yeah yeah a robs versus johns johns johns johnnies yeah yeah a robs versus johns John's season of Survivor one day.

I think once by the time somebody said, yeah, can you imagine it's a Rob versus John? That would be good though. It would be a good one. It's not a good personalities. There's a good Johns out there. Yeah. Only one Naliyah, though. Still the only, the only Naliyah.

Yes. I actually have so many people still messaging me. I probably get realistically one every three months, somebody riding me being like, my mom named me after you. And so it's so weird thinking that I'm, as old as I am and I have this like whole generation of people that didn't even watch this season, you know, that are now finding out that they were named after me. Okay, this is actually kind of a cool story. So my son went to a dance in like, I don't know, another county in Salt Lake. And he came

home and he's like, mom, he's like, I went to a dance and there was a girl there named Naliyah. And I was like, really? I'm like, oh, I said, did you ask her how she got her name? And he's like, well, no. I'm like, River. Like, why didn't you ask her how she got her name? And it's funny because Then he messaged her like a week later. He's like, hey, just how to figure out to get your name. She's like, I don't know. I was just named after some girl on Survivor. No, like, that is hilarious. I'm like, you write her and tell her that I'm your freaking mom, River. He's like, okay. But yeah, it's, it's, there's not many Millias out there for sure. I've had a lot of people named like their cows, horses, cats. Like, I get all kinds of pictures

about that, but it's sweet. Has John named any goats after you? Have you, John? You have like five million of them on your. your property. Once by a time when we would name them after people, like something would happen to the goat and it would die and then someone would say, how's my goat? And then we would just take a picture of a random ghost. He's doing great. How many goats do you actually have made?

I'm like, oh God, your goat's dead. John, of all the goats you have, how many do you actually like know which, like who's who? Like names of your goats? Oh, yeah. Jeez. Yes. And many of them know their names too. So they'll like, yeah, I'll call them

and then they'll make her noise. So like 20? Names. It's incredible. There's one name Taco that doesn't have a leg who he brought in the house and was like sleeping in a playpin. Yeah.

We bottled that in my stage, John. Yeah. Is Taco still alive, John? Gotcha. He's doing great. So it's weird. He's still hopping around with just three legs. Yeah, I'll talk.

With a prosthetic group of young people who wanted to try to make him a prosthesis. So we actually ended up making him a prosthesis. And we were able to get it done before the winter. And so now this spring, we're going to work with him to see if he can actually use it. And then it'll be on social media if we can get it to work. But he's, he stood with it. He just doesn't know exactly how to work with it because he has a little stump. Yeah. You watch the show with your family.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's mostly by myself. I feel like the kids will come in and they'll watch it and then they'll leave or they'll like miss a couple episodes and I'll try to catch them up. But usually Sundays will sit down if we've missed an episode and get caught up. It's way more fun for them now than when they were young. It's such a struggle for me because I really am trying to force my kids to watch it. And so we try to get and have family Survivor Night and all they do is talk during the show. And I have to like then like are we watching. I will pause the show.

Are we watching Survivor or not? I feel like we're doing everything but watching Survivor. And it's, you know, they're going to like grow up and then like be telling like a therapist of like, oh my dad. He was, he used to have a Survivor podcast and then he would make us and then he would ask us questions. But they would do they do anything to not pay attention. Yeah. I feel like mine are a little older now. So they kind of like it.

Well, my son's a senior. So like he thinks it's kind of cool. But it's still super hitmess. They definitely don't love it as much as I do still. all their friends want to go back and like watch the seasons but if you watch like survivor marquises versus survivor now just everything about it is so slow moving like it doesn't even like capture their interest anymore it's not look it's a struggle it's an uphill battle every week but i still am like okay we're gonna watch survivor because i'll watch it by myself i don't know but yeah what are you going to do john uh who are some of your favorites in the season Gosh.

So right now, of course, I'm fond of old school, but I'm also, even though I did not watch 49, I'm now going to go back and watch 49 because I am super impressed with Rizzo. He is a breath of fresh air, and especially, you know, with some of the various little things, you know, that kind of bother me about this season. Whenever he's on camera, he's just a breath of fresh air. He just loves being out there. But of course, Ozzie and Surrey are, they just feel like comfort to me. And it would have been so much fun to be out there.

And when Surrey was out there looking for those coconuts, man, I was rooting for her because, you know, we've all been out there on those beaches and how hot it is. And to be like just out there in the sun and you're just like, oh, my God, that had to be so miserable, you know, and daunting, right? You know, just a sea of those coconuts. But to see her actually do it, you just remind you just, again, why you love Ceree and all the times that she's overcome these things. She always finds this really cool way in her seasons to just give you a really, like, hopeful,

positive moment that you're just like, man, she is truly one of the best players to never win. Also, like our friend, Mr. Cesternino here, who has had that moniker for many, many, many, Any moons. John, I could get it back if things go the right way here in a couple of weeks. Sorri could win. If she could pull it off, I would, you know, because I'm not spoiled at all. I don't know anything about how this season goes. But also, you know, I've gotten into writing and storytelling.

And so, you know, when you watch Survivor, it's just like every drama that's out there. every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Each episode has its own arc. So I've been keeping an eye out for who is our protagonist, right? Because there is one protagonist, you know, amongst this group. And we've gotten little bits and pieces of, of them. And every protagonist has to overcome something. There has to be an inciting event. There has to be like something that's gone on. And then they have to overcome it. And then the stakes have to rise, right? So that's every story that's out there, whether it's a book or music, you know, a great tragedy. So we've got some protagonists that we're getting some little pieces of. You've got Stephanie with her arm up in the air

and that whole story. You've got her sitting out there, got now Surrey overcoming that challenge to get her vote back. Kind of reminds me a little bit of a Rachel vibe, you know, from 47. So I'm kind of watching to see, you know, Aubrey gave up her idol. She's, you know, so she's got some vulnerabilities now. So I'm been kind of really watching the storytelling aspect to see who, it's not so much the winner's edit. I'm looking at from storytelling viewpoint as who's our protagonist. And, and has he or she really started to merge at this point in the game? What kind of a story are you writing? So I'm writing a book. Matter of fact, this is one of my characters I drew.

Can you describe that for people who are listening to the podcast version of what they? Because I've been looking at it over your shoulder and I've been having so many questions. Yes. So just real quick. So these are three of my characters that I've drawn. And then this is my protagonist. And she's right there. And then I've got this other guy over here.

So when I'm writing, I like to know who I'm writing for and about. And so these are some of the characters that are here. So my book is set in 1972. It's called The Tomb Reader. And so this guy is kind of a sage, kind of, you know, a houseless person that sort of just kind of weaves in and out of the story that has kind of their own story within the mix. But I drew all three of these upside down.

So I laid all three pieces of the paper out and then started drawing. this way and literally had my eyes closed and then I turned them all around. But I was like listening to my music and channeling, you know, the story and the book and was putting these characters out there. So I turned them around and this is what came out when I flipped them upside down, you know, back up. And so there's a drag queen in the middle of all that. Wow. So my story has a drag queen in it. John, why draw them upside down? Is that? Again, just A technique? You know, just sort of just being a creative and just, you know, feeling like the vibe.

This is a tough shed that I converted into an art studio. It's in the middle of my orchard. And so it's just a creative space. And so sometimes when I'm in here, I just come up with like crazy different ideas and stuff. So when I was in here, I was thinking about these characters. And then all of a sudden just the vibe was like, draw them. And then I just laid out the paper and just started drawing upside down. I don't know why I did it that way, but that's the way I started.

And then sort of wanted to reveal to myself who they were going to be. So then I flipped them back around. I'm like, well, hello. Welcome to the book. Surprise. John's mind is always going. Like you talk to him and he's got like 50 different tabs open all at one time. I mean, he's producing music.

Now he's writing a book. He's drawing characters upside down. He's, you know, hurting goats outside, learning how to make milk and cheese. Like, he does not, he never stops. Like, he truly is just, like, one of those people that has 50,000 ideas. But he's actually really good at, like, orchestrating all of them. I don't even know how he is able to manage it. He's a nurse.

He's a lawyer. What else are you, John? Like, I feel like he just has so many things that he does, and he's actually really good at all of them. I don't know about the... In the office yesterday, one of my staff members has never made bread. So I was like, okay, well, let me show you how. So I brought the starter and we grew the starter in the office and we got the dough going. Rob is so confused by you right now, John. He's just like, yeah, because I have a million different tasks open across my, all of my

like, all of my like work space. And it's like, none of them get done. It's like, I got to go back to this. I got to go back to this. So I'm very impressed with anybody who is highly productive. you know what i will tell you going down to ecuador was a huge huge turning point for me and sticking with ioloska with sean and the rain forest you talk a little bit about that so i know that that was from uh raymond formerly spencer that he had a bunch of survivors come down uh to where it was ecuador yes we went to ecuador yes and and what did you all do Yeah, so just a little backstory is, so last August I went to South Africa and dehorned black and white rhinos part of an animal conservation thing. So we tranquilized 16 rhinos dehorn them for anti-poaching.

And right at the same time that I was planning that trip, somebody slid into my DMs and said, hey, there's this project going on about going down to Ecuador, plant-based medicine. Are you interested? And so I was like, yeah, I'll tell me more. And so pretty quickly I found out that Ryman was involved and that he had moved down to Ecuador about five years ago. And actually was introduced to ayahuasca through Corinne and then had been using plant-based medicine and just working on some of his own stuff, you know, for lack of a better term. And it was really getting a lot of insight into himself and trauma and, you know, his future and all that and really felt that he wanted to bring the power plant-based medicine to a larger audience. And of course, being a little alumnus of our family, started thinking about,

you know, even people have gone through survivor, how many of them kind of have some survivor hangovers or survivor trauma, whether it's like during the game or for, like, somebody like me who's had this like collective rejection for 25 years of doing everything, you know, being a pick me person for so long, right? And then finally come to a realization, they're not going to pick me, you know, and, and it's okay. And so, um, and so he came up with this concept. It's surviving reality is the working title. But everybody that was invited, there are 10 ex-survivors altogether that went down there. Sean was one of the people. And, and I actually pitched Sean as one of the people to go down there, um, because of his own journey

with Survivor, and I really felt like, based on what I was learning about this, that this would be something really powerful for him for his own journey. And so luckily, both of us ended up being cast for the show, and just our brotherhood and friendship became more solid going through that journey. But for me, I was having a writer's block about this creative aspect where I was going. And so I stopped writing for a while, and it was messing with my head. And actually, like, messes. with my mental health because I just was refusing to write. And so when I sat with Aya, she opened the door for me and just, you know, and essentially showed me that I don't have a block that it was fear and that I was just

afraid and afraid that I wasn't any good, afraid that, you know, my words would be misconstrued, you know, whatever it was. I just had too much noise. And so she basically just said, you know, stop, just go write and create. You're a creator. You're an artist. Embrace it. Because I've been a lawyer, I've been a nurse, you know, I've been on this left brain thing for so long.

But I have this huge artistic side that I have bottled up for most of my life. And once my sister passed, I knew, and I started painting during the pandemic. And so this has just been this process of letting this create about. And ayahuasca sitting with her for three different sessions blew open my creative side. And since then, I've written 44 songs since I've came back in November. I'm taking my first one into the studio. We're in the studio now. It's called Itchy Bitch.

And it is a crazy, cool song. But it all came from just taking all of the, like I use the word untethered and unmoored a lot. And I'm untethered. Tomorrow's not promised to any of us. I carry a gene mutation just like my sister did. And I don't know if that mutation will betray me. you know, and potentially in my life sooner than I would like. So I'm in a space now where I'm just dumping and unloading my creative

just so I can sort of outrace anything that might come my way and not leave this planet without exploring every aspect of being an artist. That's so cool. Nilea, were you worried about John when he told you that he was going to go do this? I didn't know he was going to do it, actually. I didn't know until after he got home. Did you not want to tell Naliyah because she would talk you out of it? It was so much, because I almost canceled.

Just like I almost canceled the South Africa trip. There was just like this moment of like self-doubt. But at the same time, I just knew I had to go do this for my own mental health. And then when I got back, I went through a very dark period for like six weeks because I was writing so much and just putting everything out there. I felt so raw and vulnerable. but I was writing about deep wounds and deep things that I just needed to write about. And, you know, and then part of the journey was to let people read the words because I've written lots of stuff, but I won't share them with anybody.

And my partner Chad's like, oh, my God, like he wants to do short stories. And he wants to like, he wants them, you know, like put all this stuff out there and I won't let him. And now I'm at the point where I'm like, okay, maybe some of those words might help somebody. And so let's put that, let's put it out there. But I will tell you, I'm wrapped with insecurity once I release something. I wrote a song about my relationship with my father. I took it down twice. But then I knew that wasn't the right thing.

And then somebody else listened to it and goes, oh my God, thank you so much. Because it was about generational trauma. And it was about accepting and releasing a father all at the same time. And so what I realize is, you know, words are powerful and put those things out there. And music is powerful because it can't. change a life. And we all have this crazy platform that we've been given, you know, for whatever reason, right? The universe conspired to make all this happen. And here

we are almost 25 years later playing the game. And we're doing this again with each other. And I was in an audience yesterday of, you know, half the people can't wait to listen to this. And you never know what thing you may say when you're open and vulnerable that might change the direction of somebody else's life or just add a little something extra that helps them, which also helps you in return. He sent me a song a couple weeks ago. Did she be a guy on this? Not people.

Yeah, he sent me that one too. But the one that I loved. I did. It was very John. It was very just like all like so many like thoughts, emotions, so many different levels. Like I felt like that was a really cool song because there were so many different layers to it. He sent me another song a couple weeks ago about a guy that he met on the side of the road, like a homeless kid. And that was a really beautiful one.

So he really, like, he has the ability to like pivot, you know, just all over the place in his mind. So it's really cool to see your music come out, John. And I've actually, I've really enjoyed listening to it. It's got good beats. Like I listen to him like, this could be anything, you know, on the radio that anybody would want to listen to. And John, it's on Spotify for people to listen to, right? Or is it a private album that you sent me? My writing name is Gemini Giovanni.

So I'm a Gemini. So that's, so part of it was I wanted a little distance from John Carroll. so I wanted to be able to write from a place of imagination. And then one of my dear friends, we lost a lot of people to cancer in the last number of years. And one of our close friends was diagnosed with multiple is in remission. But when I was in Ecuador, I started thinking about him. And he calls me Giovanni, which is John in Italian. And I loved it.

And so I was like, you know what? That's going to be my writing name is Gemini Giovanni. And I feel very comfortable with that persona and having that persona like create a little bit of a bubble around me. And when I go into that space and write, you know, I feel really creative and I feel like a true artist when I'm doing that. And I'm loving. It's reinvigorated me in my life. It's reinvigorated me in my relationships. It's been pretty cool.

So can I ask you, so Rob, this season, you know, even just last night, night when coach was voted out. He's like, you know, this, I don't remember exactly what it said, but something like, this has been a really healing experience for me. I feel like there's been quite a few people in season 50, at least two or three that when they've left, they've said, like, hey, this was healing. This helped me heal. And I'm like, what is that like about, you know, is it what John's talking about? Or like, what exactly is happening that's making people just. I think almost all the survivor players that as John is talking about in his art are dealing with some form of trauma. And I think

that the majority of the Survivor players seek back out and it's a little bit of maybe it's like a Stockholm syndrome and I don't know if I'm using that correctly. But the idea of like, oh, I have this trauma from

survivor and there's varying degrees. So, you know, I'm using you know, that people have real trauma. I think that not necessarily that most of the people who go on Survivor have, you know, trauma, like on, like, please give me some grace with this analogy, everybody. But I think that the idea is a little bit of like sort of like the hair of the dog that bit you of like, okay,

the trauma that I have from being on Survivor can only be healed by me going back on Survivor and it go be going differently. And I wonder if like that the experience that you two have both had and so many of us other survivors have had is like, hey, I just need to go back. If I go back, then I can fix, you know, everything that was perceived incorrectly about me the first time. Yeah, and I think there's a part of me. I mean, I can definitely see that. And I also think that there's a part for people that they have never been in such a vulnerable space before where they're just like stripped of everything, right? And then you're coming back and you're like hearing people say things about you that normally you don't get a chance to live.

like hear how people talk to you. And also just that rejection, you know, like people like being rejected, maybe they've been rejected in their life. And so you're with a group of people that you love, you're spending every day with, you're super bonded. And then to find out like, oh, they're going to vote me off. Like, what's wrong with me? You know, like I feel like they just like internalize so much. At least back in our season, I feel like that's how it was. And, you know, some of the old school players. I don't know if it's as much now, you know, because people kind of view it more of a game. But, you know, in the beginning, Robbie talked about like 9-11 happening. That was very, like real for us back then, right? And so we were all a little bit more like sensitive to,

you know, each other and like the things in life that really mattered, our relationships with each other. You know, a survivor was still pretty new. It was the second year that it was on, right? And so, yes, we all wanted the million dollars, but we also like really, like loved each other and like came together, I think a lot because of 9-11. So, you know, like I know Kathy has been really open about like, you know, just that rejection. Like a lot of people just, you know, there's a psychologist there for a reason, right? Because you get off and you just have all these like feelings of like insecurities or abandonment and like you're not good enough and all of that. And it's been interesting for me to see how many people like how much old stuff comes up for people from being on the show. And I think again,

you're isolated. I think nowadays people don't really take the time to just sit in their own silence and kind of deal with like emotions. We have so many distractions, right? You can't even stand in line at a grocery store without everybody being on their phone like scrolling right and so i don't know there's there's a lot to that for me so i've just interested what your thoughts were on that yeah it's been one of my favorite parts of the season that you see these things bubble up to the surface that everybody is dealing with because i think that to me what's so fun about survivor is that it's the study of these humans and how they're interacting and how they react to these circumstances that they're thrown into and so when we have these characters that we have gotten to know so well over the years and we come back and we see

what they've been struggling with and dealing with over a lifetime or generation of watching some of them over 15, 20 years. I think that that's been such a rich part of this experience. John, have you also seen that come up with these players? Yeah, I mean, it's your, and I think that that's also creates that like torment of wanting to go back, right? Because for what every reason, even though they've lost and some people have gone out horribly, right? And, and, like, early I talked about the flop. And when I'm talking about that, I'm how I'm going about the mechanics of the game and some of the, you know, the Billy, you know, the Irish, you know, boomerang and those kinds of things, right? And hands of the fans and is it really in

the hands of the fans? But then you take away all of that, right? And you just go back to the human piece of that. And, you know, when Stephanie was there talking about her shoulder surgery, I had major shoulder surgery a few years ago and had it completely rotor-ro-rooted because for years, I would just literally be at night, just tears streaming down my eyes because I would be in so much pain, right? And so I knew how painful that, you know, what would be? And then to see or overcome it and all that. And again, I mentioned, you know, Ceri. So, you know, that's why I love Survivor. It is those personal things that they overcome. And, you know, I've had to be honest with myself, too, through this journey of, you know, why is it that I wanted to go back?

And I've kind of distilled it down to a few things. So, number one was I had just started law school. I had worked really, really hard to get to law school, really, really hard. It was an ADD or it took me forever to get through college. And I spent my 30s getting myself back into school through every way I could imagine doing it. And so, and my target was to go to law school. So then I get there and survivor calls, I dropped out after being there for three weeks. And I go and play the game.

And I was in a financial tough spot because I was 36. We're getting ready to start school, you know, and essentially I had not been working for a little bit. And so then I go there and then suddenly I feel like I'm going to get voted out before the merge. And so that was an overreaction when I went after Gabriel. So a scarcity mindset of something that was happened to me in my real life was brought into the game and kind of polluted my game in a way because I had some external forces that were kind of dictating what I was doing because I needed to make the merch because I needed the money for law school, right? Because you can't work that first year. So game ends and all this other stuff. And I can't even go back and watch our season because I see so much of like the external stuff that was impacting the way I was playing.

the game and some of my decisions that I made. So I come back and I start law school and a week after law school, I get called into the dean's office and it says my check is bounced. And meanwhile, I had gotten $35,000 from Survivor for my placement first on the jury. I was like, that can't be true. And long story short, somebody stole all my survivor mind when I had started law school. And I don't want to get into who or what happened. but I had to get an emergency loan from the school, went to the bank, they showed me the person's signature that had cleared out my account, but I was told I would have to press charges in order to get my money back.

And here I was, the gay survivor coming off of a show that 30 million people watched, about to enter law school. And I was going to be the guy who had all his money stolen from the survivor. And back in the day, the inquirer and all the other places inside edition were all inquiries showed. up in our town. They were always looking for dirt. And there was no way I was going to be able to start law school with that publicity and that information. So I did nothing. And I was flat, broke. I had no money. I was literally living off of like $20 a week. And I immediately had to go back to work to work as a nurse. I carried a pager every day while I was going through law school. and because of that, my grades suffered, and I struggled to pass the bar.

It was a devastating outcome. And so I looked backwards, and I just wanted, you know, for a long time, I just wanted a do-over. I wanted a clean slate to go back and just play, to play the game without noise, for the love of the game, for me, you know, all of that. And so I had to work by way through that over the years, you know, to realize, well, you know, you're going to have to work that out somewhere else because it's not going to have happen on the island, you know, and it's taken me a long, long time to deal with that. So when I went to

Ecuador, I got to like exercise a lot of those demons and went on this beautiful journey. And so I'm in a different place with Survivor now. And so I'm doing these weekly, you know, watch parties and all of that. I don't have this desire to like, you know, screw CBS and screw Survivor production and screw Jeff, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like out of, you know, out of that mode now, I can just enjoy the game for what it is. The role that I played in it, the lives that we've all changed by being present and putting ourselves out there. You know, I've been doing these podcasts and fundraisers and all that stuff for 25 years. And so while I've not been able to play again, and while I'm not the ultimate survivor and I'm not the millionaire, I've gotten so much good

stuff out of it. My life is so much richer because of it. And I'm good with that. You know, I truly am good with that. You know, it's not necessarily the end-all be-all to go back and I think that there's probably a lot of people and you've heard some of the interviews that they've done of you know there's 24 people and the thing that I heard after they played that there was like a lot of interviews are like you know what this cast they're all they're so grateful they're so grateful they all got this opportunity and it was like wow okay but then it seems like then you know it's one thing to get the to get picked and that must be euphoric not that I would know okay but then you go do it

and you may have a good experience you may not and I take it it's a mixed bag but then the television is also so out of your control and I think about Chrissy who just went out in this episode and I'm sure she must have been over the moon

to have been selected to be one of the 24 people to come back for Survivor and it had been almost 10 years in the making and she had been through her own medical trauma where she, and that was part of her story on the show

and she may have had a good experience on the island or may have not. But in the television show, she seemed very disappointed in what they showed about her journey and whether it was a good experience for her or not, it seems like that then the experience seems to be tarnished

by that they didn't show a lot of her on the experience. So, hey, I'm going to, going to get back, I'm there, I'm back, and then, oh, wait, you're not going to show me? Naliyah, that's also so out of your control. Definitely is. I just, Survivor can bring up so much baggage for people just in so many different ways, right? And it's, I don't know, I can't speak to people who have had that kind of like feeling about the show.

Because for me, like, I don't have that. And maybe that's because I made it to the final too. Like, do I have regrets about tribal council? Yes, it was like the most, like, I can't even watch it because I'm just so embarrassed of, like, my performance there. But I have to look back and say, like, that was my younger self. I was 21 years old. I was super naive about a lot of things.

Like, I didn't want to hurt people's feelings. I never wanted to disrespect somebody where their family was going to watch. Like, I'm very aware of, like, how my actions affect other people, right? But then, so there are regrets as far as that goes. I know I could go out there and it'd be such a different experience with, you know, with all of it for me personally. But yeah, you can never control like, you know, the factors around you, obviously. But I feel really sad for people who feel like they get terrible edits. And, you know, sometimes that can be blamed on whatever, right?

Like, but sometimes I also think it's you're watching yourself back and you're not super thrilled with maybe the person that you are. And how many chances do we have a, I mean, how often do we get a chance to like watch ourselves? on television, like see how you act, see how you talk. And I can say from our cases, I mean, the edits that people got for me, like, that's how they were out there. And like sometimes, you know, if people didn't like their edit, like Kathy, I know struggled for a while. And it's like, but that is like how you came across to us. You know what? I don't think we get a chance to sit back and like watch ourselves and watch our lives play out on television. Sometimes we're not super proud of how that looks, right? Or how we acted or whatever. And it's just we don't ever

get that experience because we're just in our bodies, living our life every day. So I think that kind of plays into it too. Yeah. It's tough. You know, everybody goes out there. Maybe one person has like the perfect experience that they wanted. But for a lot of people, it just didn't go exactly the way that you hoped. But you think that if you go back, it will go that way, that time.

And then then you have to also deal with. It doesn't go the way that you thought it was going to go when you go back. So, but then the next time you go, then that'll be, you know, if you go again. We have to agree. Yeah. Then I'm really going to. So, you know, everybody's, everybody's always chasing something. It's giving us a lot of fun.

Okay. I have, go ahead. Oh, no, I was just saying just, you know, all these, you know, years later, I mean, there's a reason why we're still doing that. I mean, think about what Survivor has done for you, Rob. I mean, my gosh, you know, look, you have done. I mean, I've, you know, for the background, I've just marveled at what you have, you know, because you have just diversified way beyond just the survivor, you know,

world, right? I mean, and that has also played a part, you know, to keep it going because you remember it was very bottled up. Nobody knew who the cast was. Everything was a big secret. Nobody wanted any spoilers. and all of this stuff. I mean, to think, you know, we're OGs.

Think about where this started and where we are now. I mean, could you even have predicted all those years ago that we literally would be, all these years later, would be sitting here talking about the show. No, I could not have. And I think that you must have come

to the Survivor Amazon finale, right? Yes, I did. But then that I, you know, have a lot of memories of the summer of 2003 after I played on Survivor. I went to a few different charity events, and you had had a big charity event in Omaha, Nebraska, and I flew out there. And it was such a great summer for me because I got to meet all of my heroes from Survivor.

And there was only at that time, there's 751 survivors now. I think at that point in time, I think that there were 96, There were less than 100. And you probably had half of them there, at least. Yeah, we had, like, I'm going to say 47 that we actually had there and flew out and did this whole weekend to raise money for charity and hang out. Yes. And you picked us up at the airport, and I think I was with Jenna and Heidi at that time and drove us around and we're seeing, like, oh, look at us. We're in Omaha, Nebraska after being on Survivor.

Let me bring up that, Brandon, do you have, do you have the photo that we were talking about? Can we take a look at this? Because you had so many different adventures for the survivors and that one of the things that you had us do was, there was a fashion show. It was like, I must have been there with it. It was like a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and went home on a Sunday. and maybe it was the Friday that there was a

big fashion show in town and I was a participant I can't wait to see this again I love this photo by the way do we have this or has Brandon stepped away and let me see I'll have to do it

I'll do it live okay and So let me show you a photo of me from this fashion show that still follows me to this day. I remember those glasses too, and look with bare feet. Yes, yes. And this was the summer of 2003, and you had to be there. I'm not sure if this was a fashion statement part that I had the beer,

or this was just what the survivors would do at the charity event. Yeah, because remember we went to the Back and then it was called The Hitchin Posted Wood and Nickel And they'd not as borrow all the clothes And basically went there And everybody got styled And got to pick out their outfits

And we did the Fast show because Fringes, I don't know Fringes is still around, but that was a hair salon At the time And somebody I knew Was one of the owners there Because I remember they were one of the sponsors Yeah, in the background

And you must have had so much press there because Getty Images was there to catalog this. And I'm seeing now that I can own this image for looks like $299. What's behind it? Oh, the size of it. So for $375. Yes. Maybe I want to have this framed in my home. I can't believe you don't have this framed in your home.

Are you kidding me? I mean, look at you. You look great. I don't know. This picture has really stood the test of time in terms. of how much it still pops up. Yeah, and whenever I see images from that event, this is literally one of the ones that always seems to pop up

for whatever reason, was you and the glasses holding the beer. Is it a Coors or a Bud Light? What do you got? It looks like a Coors Light to me, if you had to ask me. A Coors Light, there we go. Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, because, and then, because, yeah,

Because Heidi was there and because we had the magazines and they had autographed the magazines. Sure. Sure. Which I just come out. I still have autographed the magazine. Okay. She is. Naliyah had dropped off.

Multi-phone cord. I wasn't sure if that Nilea, if we just said, said this conversation, I'm out. It's over, guys. I thought they were going to talk more about Survivor 50. Yes. I do have some questions. Questions for you both from the listeners of the podcast who sent them in. Let me bring in some questions for you.

Okay. This is from Cro-Zank who says, can you ask Naliyo which castaway left is playing the most like she would? How would she approach Survivor 50 from a game perspective? Is there somebody that you feel like is playing a game like you? Or at least how you would play it now? That's a really good question. And I was thinking about that a little bit this morning because I kind of anticipated that that might be a question that I would be asked.

And I'm going to need to think about that a little bit more. I feel like I would definitely play a lot. I can speak to how I would be different versus like how I played before. I feel like I am very aware of like everything that's going around me at all the time. I feel like I would come in and I mean, I know I would be. so much different in the sense that, you know, I would have a lot more on camera to say. I feel like I withheld all of my confessionals and things that I was really thinking, again, because I just didn't want to hurt feelings and talk about people and things like that. But I definitely would be,

you know, the strategist under the radar, which I think Surrey is kind of that person that people feel like they can come to. She's like that warm blanket. You know, she's got great advice, but she's not, you know, like, like coach where he's just, out there like owning everything, right? So I think I'd be a lot like seri in the sense that I would just be like very aware, kind of like insert myself, you know, here and there where I needed to. And then I think I'd be, I mean, truly like, I'm just trying to think of someone who's playing that like I would play like. I mean, I probably would say serri, but I'm like more aggressive as far as like physically, like I think I'd be better in challenges and I think I'd be looked at,

you know, a little bit more. I don't know. Let me think about that first. Like, go to John. Let me just think on that for another minute. John, what about you? You know, I don't think really anybody, I think my game is just my own game. So I don't really think that there's really any one person that I see myself in directly. I see various pieces of me. I see the Ceres social game.

Definitely see bits and pieces of Ozzy, Devons. Um, Aubrey, you know, I, I see, I see people who I would have gravitated towards that I would want to align with. And those, those names are for sure people that I definitely would have naturally wanted to play with. Um, yeah. So definitely, I think be seen as somebody who could be trusted out there. Like I would, you know, like create alliances, but I think Ceree is really great in the sense that I would, I say I'd say, I'd be more like her in the sense that she kind of has all these alliances with all these people. Everybody just feels like she's with them. They're connected with her.

You know, that they're coming to her to ask her advice and questions. And she really hasn't been on the hot seat yet. So in that sense, I feel like I would kind of play that sort of game, but I would be... How is she doing this? How is everybody just wanting to work with her?

And nobody's saying like, hey, you know what? I think John is running everything. We should flip the script on him. How's Surrey able to just everybody's like, you know who I really love Surrey? Isn't she the best? I think because she's not a huge physical threat to people.

And I don't think that she's one that's like out there just, like she's not bossy. Like she just blends in with everybody. She's just like the chameleon. And she just makes everybody feel good. Like if she has an opinion, which we all know she does, she isn't like, you know, being the one like,

she doesn't arrogantly approach that. Like she's very like, what do you think? And like helps people to feel like it's like their idea. And so I think that's what she does brilliantly. And she keeps playing time and time again. And sometimes I sit back and I'm like, this is incredible that someone like a surrey can go out there and play so many times. And everybody literally just always loves her.

They don't really see her as a threat. I mean, at least this season, I don't think they've really like seen her as that threat yet. John, is the pressure on for Sarie? Does she have to get it this time? Because I almost feel like after this time, if she plays again, she's like, I don't think she could ever be in this good of a position again, right?

Well, but think about how many times. She's got to get it this time. Right. I bet you if you run it back, you're going to, how many times you're going to hear that exact sort of thing where just, you know, it's kind of like the Madonna of Survivor,

just don't underestimate her. Like she's going to completely come out and just be herself. I think the thing with Surrey is, if you don't get her out early, like if you don't like realize that's there, I think her game is so, it's, you know, a lot like the Sepia's game

was with us, right? She knows how to navigate between the seams without actually looking like she is trying to push a narrative. But this last time, when she came back, she felt really secure in like putting her foot down of like yeah we're not doing that and and then all of a sudden you know and Ozzy's like oh yeah you're right okay because I thought

okay Ozzie here's we're going to see some strategy and Surrey came back and said no Ozzie we're not oh my god I totally thought you were going to want to do that yeah oh I'm liking this sort of kind of like not being right in the middle of the you know that three some four some kind of lurking in there in this great social game. My hope is that she continues to do this and starts to shape the narrative a little bit more, but not in this overt way that would put her at risk, that people are like, oh, wait a minute, Cere's playing a little bit different. And I would love for her to get to that end.

Of course, that's always the threat. But she has the history of getting to the end and not being able to win, right? Yes. So she has to do something different. And even if it's my secret fantasy is all she did was work with Flint and little pieces of sticks for months. Yeah. So that she could put herself into fire and went and have that final resume piece. That would be something if that was the case.

But I don't get the sense that she did. Like, I'm just hoping, you know, the little boy in me is like, please, please, please. Yeah, because you don't watch Australian Survivor, do you? I mean, I've heard, but I have, I don't know how to access it, so I have not seen any of it, but I've heard bits and pieces. Yes. But I've stayed away just so I can watch it and watch to see how it goes down. All right, well, we can get you the links. That's easy. Yeah. Yeah, I just don't know where you watch it.

Okay. All right. How about a question from Ben Gregory who says, if you could change one thing about $750 so far, what would it be no celebrities, different castes? Well, let's leave casting out of it. No celebrities, different twists, different twists, different fan votes, the editing. What did you change about Survivor 50? Well, that's a good question. I would change the challenges. Yes, okay. There's a lot of things on like obviously different elements, but I love, I would love

to see some of like the older challenges kind of coming back. I feel like everything is. Which ones? I mean, I think, I mean, I'm going to go back to Marquise, is hauling a 40-pound rock underwater, you know what I mean? Like, that's super cool. What about flying a kite? Should we bring that back?

What about flying a kite? Should we bring that back? I'd be good with not having the kite challenge come back. But, like, I just love, like, challenges like that rather than just so many obstacle challenges and puzzles. Like, I want to see them, like, I want to see more of, like, where they're at. I want to see more of a struggle. I want to see more people be able to, like, emerge who aren't the biggest physical, you know,

strength out there. And obviously, like, with, you know, you get the people that are great at puzzles, the people that are super strong. But, I mean, seeing a Pasco hall of 40-pound rock underwater and winning that challenge, like, that's pretty cool, you know? So for me, I get kind of bored with the challenges. I wish that they were a little bit more exciting. Yeah. There's not a lot of variety. It's a lot of in the beginning, a lot of races and a lot of ready-set stands still.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't fall off that. Shoot that and this, you know, it's, yeah. I get kind of bored. Yeah. What about for you, John? I'm praying that between now and the finale,

we get the Coconut Challenge back. Yeah. So it would be a good time for it. A way to eliminate, yeah. Because nobody's going to cut Ceres rope. That could do her in. Right. So to me, if you want to reveal really who's where,

and it's such an old challenge that, for the true survivor fans, they recognize how well, that was for the, not only our game but full series. John, they ended up, I believe the last time they did that was Survivor San Juan del Sur. And they, I think it was

combined with also the touchy subjects challenge, which they also, this is the last time they did that. And you had to talk badly or like who smells, you know, who's who's annoying? Who would you never

want to have dinner with ever again? And then you had to cut the things. But then they were just like picking who they wanted to and then Jeff like said you know what fine I wouldn't even have to do the challenge and then they never they've never brought it back ever since yeah he's like I don't care you do what I just pick whoever you want to go on the reward I don't it doesn't matter to me yeah yeah I think there's a way for them to sort of bring back that challenge that is discussed to really expose where your alliances it we're not even trying anymore with these ideas. Yeah, because I mean, that was what was so brilliant about that

challenge that people to this day still talk about. They talk about the coconut challenge. And there's, you know, and think about all the challenges that are out there, there's very few that actually get like a name that like means something. I remember when they did the 30 anniversary book and they did the top 10 favorite moments. Me being voted out was like either number three year number four because of the coconut challenge. I'm like, well, at least I was miserable. And me getting my hand peed on. I'm like, how is that not been shown yet?

Of course. Yes. And the Coconut Chop Challenge, I talked about it in my Survivor book, The Tribe and I have spoken as one of the most unforgettable moments in the history of the show. Yeah. Changed my life.

It was like, changed mine. Yeah. Yes, it did. Well, even in that moment, like, when you have people who were, you know, like, we knew going into it, like, what had to happen that night, right? But the coconut challenge just exposed it. And so it would be really cool to see a season 50, you know, especially these people that have all these different alliances with people have to be forced to, like, show, you know, who they're going after. I think it would be super cool. And just the whole element of Survivor, I love that. It's like, like, I feel like they would have, I wish they would have. I wish they would have more of that in season 50.

You know, like, I don't know. I like, not that I like to see people suffer, but I feel like people like to see the survivor element as far as like, I don't know, just we had to boil our water. They just have like a well they go to. Like there's a lot of things that I feel like people just can kind of sit around a tent and talk all the time. Like I like to see the old school. Some of the, just some of the old school stuff.

The challenges, the, you know, not eating, the starving to death and how you act and how that affects your personality and, you know, all that. You know, there was a lot of talk about this season of people were making alliances before Survivor 50. How do you two feel about that with players who go back and that they talk to each other or make arrangements? Is that just par for the course or do you have an issue with that? I don't think you can eliminate that.

Yeah. The only way you truly can do it is contracted out. and, you know, scare the crap out of them through the contract, right? And put a specific clause about pre-gaming that it's not allowed. And if you're found out, boom, you know, here's what will happen to you. So they could easily cure that by contracting it and, or at least try to, you know, I think the vast majority would go away overnight just because those contracts are so scary. But, you know, until you do that, I mean, the game starts the moment, like when we were all,

all of us know the moment we got that first phone call, the game started for all of us at that point. We were playing Survivor. The first time we got that phone call that says you might be able to play. So you're going to use whatever is available to you to try to have the best, you know, foot forward. Now, some people have relationships with others, but, you know, those work double-edged swords, right? You know, you could think that you're going to be buddy, buddy.

Nillie and I said years ago that if we ever played, we would put our friendship at the door, And we would go play the game the way it was supposed to be played. And that neither one of us would ever have a problem to take each other out. Really? Period. I just think with, I mean, survival, you got to be flexible, like adaptable. You got to be willing to, like, not have a past goal that, you know, you're never going to be, like, willing to vote out anymore, right? Yeah.

And, yeah, I don't, I mean, as far as pregame alliance, like, it's just going to happen. Like, I heard from people when season 50 started that I had never even met before that we're all, we're all. with my friends and just texting me like, you know, and I was just like, huh, this is interesting, you know, and I get it. Like, you want to kind of get a feel for people. But I feel like when the game starts, you just have to be willing to, like, ditch everybody and do whatever you have to do to get to the end, period, because it's for a million dollars, it's life changing. And, you know, you're not out there to make friends anymore. I mean, you will make friends, hopefully, but that's just not how Survivor is.

For me, anyways, like, I would be completely different this time. What would be the circumstances where you have to vote out John? Oh, I mean, I mean, there could be a million things, right? Like if I... A million? Oh, my God. John. I mean, if John and I went out there and we were like a duel, like I feel like we would support each other, we'd be smart. But like, at some point, if like I had to cut John to further my game, like, I'm going to do that. Might lower your threat level.

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, going out to play Survivor again, as much as like I would love my people, it would be to bring home the money to my family period. And I would hope at the end of the day, you know, one of the reasons why I didn't win is because I didn't own what I did in the game. Like I was just too worried about hurting people's feelings and not making them feel bad. Like, I feel like had I actually gone out there and said what I wanted to say, and I didn't have a filter of worrying about how that was going to affect people, I really think that I could have won my season. And that's definitely like a regret. I had. have, but like 100% had I owned it to John and just been like, look, da-da-da-da-da, like,

you're there because you did this. Like, I'm, you know, I'm not sorry about that. And this is why I had to do it. Like, that's who I'd be this time around. It wouldn't be trying to make everybody feel good. Like, I'd be wanting to bring home the money for my family, period. And if that meant, like, I had to cut my closest people at some point, like, I'm not going to be flipping or crazy about it. But, and I would expect the same for him in any of my other friends. Emily flipping. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

John, I think you got to take this deal back. I think Nalia is itching to vote you out. It sounds like that she's already like getting her jury speech ready for she did all the things she had to do. You got to make her promise that your friendship is over if she votes you out. Right. That's right. You're dead to me if you vote me out. But at the same time, oh my gosh.

I mean, can you imagine what great TV it would be because we would be a mess if we knew, like, you know, our friendship was sinking us. We'd only, I think, if it ever happened, we'd have to be like at a blood versus water survivor edition where you brought allies or enemies together and you played as a pair, then you don't have to like worry about it. Yes, because, you know, I recently, I don't know if you kept up with the traitors from this past season. I'm like I'm every version across the globe. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I kind of feel like that there's like a Tara and Johnny vibe here. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, dogs. Yeah. Although Tara would have never voted out Johnny and Alia clearly would vote out John.

And what was funny is when I watched that season, of course, it's Johnny and John, right? And Johnny Pots and Pants. Johnny and Tara have a very much a John and Naliyah vibe. Obviously, I don't have the grandmotherly style that Johnny, you know, wears. But our friendship is that he, now in a traitor's scenario, we would absolutely, I think, play a completely different game in a trader's environment because their question would be is, are you a faithful, are you a traitor? and how much fun would that would be. Survivor is a very different vibe. I mean, obviously, you know you were lucky enough to play Traders.

Briefly. If it doesn't happen, that's the game. You know, can you imagine me on Traders? I'm a nurse. I'm a trial attorney. You know, I go from like all of like the connections that I have of being able to connect with people just because of my 60 years of life. My gosh, I would love to do traders.

You would be great. Absolutely. Yes. what role would you like to play? You probably will say that you want to be a favorite. You want to be a traitor. Yeah. So I did an online trader with some other survivors.

I can't remember if we raised money for charity. Yeah, yeah, we were raising money for charity. And I was a trader and I recruited Rachel, who played in that and we won. Rachel Riley? Rachel Lamont? Yeah. Okay. Rachel Riley.

Okay. And we ended up winning, you know, the little online version. And I took out the Make a Wish Girl. Wow, John. Brutal. Who is in the final four? That's just mean. There must have been a big prize, right?

You did it for to win the... Prize. Now, I do have to say... John, with all due respect, Leah, though, on the traitors, if they made her a traitor, nobody would see that coming. Yeah, we would be a coming.

She'd be like, oh, my heck. You know, I'm just so, I'm, I could never, I could never be a traitor, but like, I believe her. She looks so nice. She's never going to be a traitor. I would never lie to you guys. I promise. Yes. And then, and it would...

In Survivor World, I would, she took me out. It would be fine. If I was standing, at the final and throwing those bags in and i and it was her and i at the end and i truly believe she was a faithful and i threw my little green bag in there and it turned green and then and then we wait yeah you have to vote again so we win the final two and then she like revealed she said i'm a traitor i might be taken to a hospital yes you would end the friendship then right i wouldn't end the friendship but i would i'd be in therapy like how did i miss that like Like my job as a trial attorney is to root out deceptive people.

Like, that's my job. But you know what I mean? Are people telling you the truth and, you know, all of those things? And so, if Nilea pulled a hole in my eyes, I would just be a mess. I would be so crushed. I play Secret Hitler really well. Yes. Oh, my God.

I believe it. I believe it. I think that Nilea could just really pull the wool over somebody's eyes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right, who's going out next on Survivor 50? What about Tiffany? How do you feel about Tiffany?

Do you feel like she's redeeming yourself with people? I think Tiffany is on the upsling. She's like all of a sudden have some friends. She was on the bottom, but I think she's rising. Yeah, she just got that relationship with Joe, and we know Joe is a faithful man. Yeah. So that might make him a helper.

Yeah. Yeah. So I always look at, you know, where are we in the game in terms of of numbers, right? So we were at 13 because of the double, you know, we're at 11. So now we're back to those odd numbers again. And like, where is everybody sitting now with sort of the refouffling? Because the seven really thought they were a seven and we know they're not a seven, right? And so now it's like, oh, you know, it sort of reminds me a little bit. I see shades of our season in this season along the way. And so now I'm like,

like, okay, who is, you know, I feel like now, are they going to start going after challenge beasts, right? Are we finally getting into a reasonable number of people that you can get? There were so many people playing. I think that created its own problem and it's sort of kind of a chaos of like how to set your footing. But now we're like truly at a true merge. I wonder instinctually they'll go back to kind of the true merge fallback, which is go after your, your meat shields and your offense of the world or the people that you perceive are going to go on an immunity tear and start building a resume.

So I kind of feel like a physical threat is going to come next versus a strategic person like Christian. I could see Christian or Devons being on the hot seat just simply because they're good players. Yeah. So I feel like it's either going to be a physical thing and knocking somebody out that way

or it's going to be pure strategy at this point all the way through. I think Devons is going to have a target on his back a little bit. That's how I lean also. I think that after the shenanigans at Tribal Council it'll get you through the night, but I think people are going to be like,

I don't know if I like that. I think that like now, you know, you sort of are front and center and they have too much attention on you. And the difference, I think, between this new era game and the game that we played is, first off,

there were not these types of like tribal council theatrics and shenanigans, but tribal council is the next day. A lot can change in three days when it was like, okay, it's day 17, okay, we're not going to vote average or whatever the days are that you have the, like the divisible by three. You know, it's day 21. Okay, we don't have tribal council until day 24. Like they're going to go the next day.

Right. Yeah. Here's what I think is interesting, and I'm waiting to see what happens when they get back to camp. So right away when Devin's did that, and they were all shuffling, Stephanie went over to Christian and Jonathan and said, Megan's show it. And Christian sort of played this, oh, I don't want to get involved with me. Right. And that was sort of like Aubrey's, I forgot to use my idol moment. So these are all smart play.

Yeah. Right, right. So I feel like, but here's, I see two things that happened in that moment. One, her instincts were dead on, right? But it didn't land. Nobody supported her. So I'm like, what's going on tribewise that nobody was listening to her? So right at the end, she tried and said, will you show it versus getting herself aground?

I'm like, hey, y'all, like, why won't you show it? Why won't you show it? If this really is an idol, like, why won't you show? Now, obviously it makes sense why he wouldn't do it. But I love the fact that she went right to that. And from the edit, she's the only one that was like challenging. Questioned it. Questioned it.

And she tried. She started down the other end to like get some people to kind of go there. But, you know, it seemed like the energy was coaching Chrissy anyway. And that didn't land. But I don't think she's letting that go when she gets back to camp. And she's going to remember Christian, who is Devons' buddy, didn't help her. Right. You don't want to be on her bad side.

Yeah, yeah. So I wonder if you're going to see that gives a little bit of a spark because she's been a little bit purple, rather than the shoulder, you know, challenge. And my hope is that, you know, the women, I think, have been purple just as a group overall. But I think I'm wondering now, are we going to start to see them get a second half

where the men are more purple than the women were in the first half? with Surrey, Stephanie, Aubrey, you know, coming, you know, maybe coming to the forefront a little bit more. Yeah. Well, I'm not going to bet on that happening yet. I think in terms of, I think that they have some of these guys that they like to show a lot, and they're going to show them as long as they're there. But if they get voted out. Okay.

Anything else from your notes from Survivor 50 or beyond that you want to share with us today? I think the only thing about the show was I was just really hoping that we would reminisce more about how we got here. How did we get to 50, right? And just spanking a little bit more of like some great moments that you brought back into the game itself. So it didn't look like it was just, you know, a scrapbook going backwards, but that you would like tie it to it. I would love to have some trivia, you know. I'd love to see a food challenge again. Yeah, we can get that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like we have to have an auction. I don't know how you do a 50 without, you know, an option. I don't know what the Mr. Beast thing is that's involved with that. You know, obviously people are a little bit wary of the celebrity, you know, commercials that we've seen, you know, in some of these pieces. So hopefully Mr. Beast lands rights and all of that. You know, I feel like. like in some ways there were just, again, there were too many cooks in the kitchen and too many people trying to make the soup. At the end, like, oh, did we really get the 50 that we really expected in one? I will say just in fairness to the Survivor producers that I heard some stories about how they came up with the design for this season. What they did was that they were blindfolded and they started just coming up with the idea for the, and they did it upside down. And they didn't know what it was going to be. I knew that was coming. And then they took a blindfold and they're like, okay, all right, this is interesting.

We got one drag queen. That's going to be this. Yeah, at least we know what we're looking at now. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Okay. You know, for me, it's been interesting to see Jeff this season. Like, that's just so wild. I'm like, is Jeff always this jovial kind of guy or is he like actually the other way and he's just like putting on a show?

Like to see him wrap on now. Yeah? Yes, it's ground. 100% my dad was a tennis coach and when my dad was a young tennis coach it was kind of kind of like Jeff right and and and you know it's super intense and all of that and then age kind of brings you along and then suddenly you know you look forward you realize you have less in front of you than you do behind you and the world you know I'm 60 I'll be 61 here in just a couple couple months and I've got grand nieces that were born you know at the end of 25 and and I will tell you that

it's like was a jarring like moment like I'm at the grandpa level and I've never ever like saw myself or viewed myself in that in that world and and now I do find myself relating to other people especially younger people differently and and less intense you know um and so I'm loving this I love it when he pulls down the veil a little bit and you get to see that that human and the human side that vulnerability when he's been at his vulnerable side is when I've liked him the most. Did you see the preview for next week where it looks like Jeff is doing a challenge with them? Yeah, that's that's wild. Have you guys ever thought what it would be like to play Survivor with Jeff? I'd really never think about that. What would it be like for you, Nilea? I just had this

thought this morning. I'm like, what if Jeff actually came and played like on the show? Like, would he be like a Surrey that would just like, you know? No. No. You don't think so? I think he was. I think he be very much like, all right, guys, this is what we're doing. Like, are you sure about that? Like, yeah, I think I know what I'm doing. Like, I think he would really be running everything. I don't, I don't think that. I think that he would kind of be like really good at like playing off of people.

And like, I feel like she'd kind of go through the middle. I just, I don't know. I was thinking about that this morning and I think that he do. Like, did we all get like men and black type like, okay, you, that he's just a guy. guy, he's just like Hefe, who's here and you don't know him from anything? Or has he taken a season off from posting Survivor to play Survivor? For me, I kind of feel like he'd be like almost like the Rob coming back, right? Everybody's like, we got to get Rob out. Rob knows everything, blah, blah, blah. But like, how often does Rob make it super far in the game, even though he's like a number one threat in the beginning, right? So I don't know. I kind of feel like Jeff would would make it far. And I, I don't know. Would you guys trust to lie yourself with this? If we go to the end with Jeff, like he'll bring us back for more seasons. It'll be like the White Lotus thing. Every time I heard

that with Mike, I'm just like, shut up, guys. Like, stop. When they brought Mike White back. Yeah. I mean, I was like, oh man, you know, I wasn't a fan of it. I mean, I know, obviously he's a fan of the show and we're super happy to come back. But, you know, I just think he is in such a different stratosphere that that in and of itself Yeah, it didn't help him though. What's happening? Didn't help him out in the game. No, and I don't think it was never going to help him.

I mean, I think there might be a few people that potentially would let their guard down simply because you kind of get a cameo, right? But at the same time, I was just like, oh, like that. I just felt like there was other players of that generation that I would have liked to have seen, you know, rather than Mike coming back. It was just too much. It was too stumpy for me. Nilea, where can people keep up with what you're doing?

Well, I just on Instagram, lipstick by Naliyah, I run a cosmetic business and that's just what my name is on there. But I don't, I post, I post about everything. Good. I've been doing it for like 11 years. And when I started Instagram, that was kind of like my main focus. Really, it's like I basically just show my life and, you know, we travel a lot. We, you know, spend a lot of time in Costa Rica. You know, I've got a food truck business.

Like, I'm a very like entrepreneurial person. So I have like all kinds of just things on there. Yeah? Yeah. So we've got, I mean, Survivor. I own a food truck. It's called Survivor Marquesis. So that's really cool.

The food truck is called Survivor Marquesis. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Marquesis corn dogs. Okay. There you. What do you sell?

Yeah. Not survivor Marques. Jesus. Yeah, so we've been doing that. I think we're... We're going into our 14th season with that. I run the concessions up at the University of Utah. I've got like three hand-up corn dog stands up there. So I just like, yeah, we, you know, my lipstick page on Instagram is probably like the easiest.

I also do Facebook. I know a lot of people are like, feel like that's old lady stuff nowadays, but I have like, you know, Millie and Nelson on Facebook. Yeah. I love Facebook. I still love Facebook. But other than that, I'm just on that. Instagram. I do have Snapchat. I've got like 10 friends on there of my of my friends kids, but are my kids friends, but that's it. Okay. Well, I got to check out what's going on with the Marquesas

corn dogs. Yes, Marquesas corndogs. It's a big tie-dye food truck. You can't miss it. The logo and it's and they're good. It's honestly, it's so fun. Like we just started it as a little side business just for something like on the side and it turned into our full business. And then now we're up at the University of Utah. And so we, you know, just got all of our stuff to franchise it. So it's, I mean, it sustained us for 14 years. We go out to all kinds of events. And so that's super cool. And then I have my lipstick business on the side of that. And yeah, it's, it's really, it's really fun. I like it. We like working for ourselves. I mean, there's no, no better freedom than, like, you know, being your own boss. So I think all this time with John has rubbed off on you.

You have so many different interests and different like trades that you're in. I could never keep up with John. His brain is just all over the place. But I also Reen works her tail I do. I work my butt off. I mean our cast is actually pretty accomplished. And you know, Gabriel went on to be an

emergency room position. Zoe used to say work hard, play hard. Yeah, you've got Zoe and her calendars out there. You know, just doing her. It's not still out there. I love that calendar so much. I love those. She's great. She's great. Yeah. She's so happy. Yeah.

You know, Tamp one Emmy. She, you know, was, you know, a reporter, you know, got on to NBC National, wrote a book. You know, she's out there living in her life. And Sean is doing amazing work. You know, I saw him a couple weeks ago.

He's the best. I mean, he's just killing it. So, yeah, I mean, we just are, you know, and of course, look, you know, the granddaddy of them all, awesome Rob. I mean, you know, at the pinnacle at the top of reality television.

still doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Pascals, 82 now. He just celebrated his birthday. That's pretty wild. His birthday is a lot for. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I interviewed Kathy last year also that she's doing great. See her. We need to have a survivor event. We're trying to like put a little private thing together for the 25th anniversary, you know, just for us, whoever can get together. So we're hoping we're going to get together. We'll put a couple pictures out on social media. but it's going to be just for us.

Yeah. Okay. And then John, where could people keep up with you? So, I mean, mainly my, my,

my Instagram is, you know, I'm not really all that super active on social media. I'm more kind of, you know, checking out what other people are doing,

but I will post. So we have that, John Carroll is my Instagram. And then my partner is Willow Valley Farm. So if you want to see our farm activities and all of that, and my Facebook page, Chad and I share a page on there. So we're putting stuff out there.

But we have two tiny houses on our 40-acre goat farm, and they're on Airbnb. And so we've had Survivor fans that have come out. Yeah, come stay. And they're awesome. And then, yeah, and I'm just working on my music. And so that's going to be this new chapter. I'm working on the book. I'll be putting that stuff out there that's there.

And I'm really excited to find out where we'll land for the, surviving reality show that Ryman and them are editing as we speak. I basically wrote a soundtrack when I was there and they want three or four of the songs to use for the show. So I'm going to bring those into the studio. Speaking of which, if there are fans out there that are singers, I'm looking for artists who, you know, I know what kind of artists I'm looking for voice-wise, but if they are a singer male or female, they should read.

reach out to me on my DMs on Instagram because I'm looking to take some of the songs I wrote in Ecuador and bring them into the studio and be able to center some artists that are out there and put a little shine on them. So if you're a singer or you're an instrumentalist, you know, reach out to me because I definitely want to keep putting

the good juju out there into the universe. So listen to the music on Gemini, Giovanni. You'll see the songs that I wrote in art and other songs. But yeah, if you listen to them and you hear yourself, they're all demos. Yeah, reach out. I'd love to center you. All right. Well, thank you both so much for hanging out today.

This was great to get to catch up. Appreciate everybody who joined us for this very fun conversation. And we'd love to hear you to say in the comment here on YouTube. Take care, everybody. Have a good one. Bye. I'm always looking for those tips and tricks to help optimize my life. Ways to save money, travel better, and make life a little easier.

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