RHAP: We Know Survivor - Know-It-Alls: Survivor 47 Ep 12

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

This week, Rob and Stephen discuss Survivor 47 episode 12.

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The smartest guys around Are about to break it down Like they've won the game a million times Well, actually, they didn't really win the game at all Surviving game at all survivor no it oh they know it all. Survivor know-it-all. Yeah, that's right.

The Survivor know-it-alls are back after. What a highlight of Survivor 47. We got to see the other night. Operation Italy. Stephen Fishback. Wow. Such a great episode. So much fun. Really, like, a lot to talk about here. I thought, you know, this was going to be a hands

down. People will be applauding this move. That was pretty much true on social media. Like, I would say, like, 80% people applauded. But there was, like, a solid minority of people who were saying, yeah, this was too much. You know, big mistake. You know, this is going to put, you know, ruin Zandy's game. So I'm so excited. And there's, you know, big, big, big, you know, this is going to put, you know, ruins Andy's game.

So I'm so excited. And there's, you know, pros and cons to talk about. So I'm excited to talk about it with you. You're back from hobnobbing with the glitterati. I'm not quite back. I'm still in Houston recording this. But so, yeah, we're recording this on Thursday and then people are going to watch this on Friday.

So we are a little bit in case there is huge survivor news that has broken later on in the day on Thursday. We do not know it yet, but we are just as excited as you are to find that out. So Wednesday night, we did a live show. And of course, you can watch that now up on our YouTube channel. Steve, it's not the same without you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I feel the same way I do. I mean, I really miss it. I really, really miss it. I'd like to at some point get back there once you allow me in one day, one day, maybe. Maybe if there's like a big survivor anniversary coming up or something like that, we could find a time to get back together to talk about all that. And of course, Evie and Shannon Gus talked about the episode in great detail coming up on or this past Wednesday night. So check that out as well. But, Stephen, so looking forward to breaking down Operation Italy with you first.

Stephen, the name Operation Italy. Do you think that the players said, OK, this is the Italian job? And the producer said, we do not have the clearance for that. You think it was a trademark issue or a rights issue that's very funny it was a rights issue that's a movie um you're eating italian food i believe the italian job is like a spy movie they're driving around no i think italian job would have been a great it's possible they just didn't like make that you know they're sleep deprived may not be a paramount property yeah that could be they don't want to like cross promote things you know that aren't necessarily in their in their stable

huh that's good that's interesting to think about yeah maybe this is sort of like the debut of a new series of you know like she's all that was on paramount like andy griffith show you could watch it on paramount like i wonder if like it's like oh, it's the Italian job. And like, we checked, uh, it's operation Italy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm amazed though. Like in the moment, you know, to have that team of lawyers right there doing the kind of like digging into the, into the library to see maybe that's a crackpot theory. Okay. All right. So Steven, um, so for Andy, this was such an interesting move and for Andy and for, and look for Genevieve and for Sam, I'm thrilled for them that they got to have a last hurrah and not get voted out of the game. So what other choice

do they have? Maybe not a last hurrah. Maybe like, you know, there might be more hurrahs in their future. The beginning of something for them, for sure. But I feel like that whether or not this works for Andy, I just think that isn't this sort of like the dream to come out on Survivor?

Like, I don't think that Andy was winning to begin with. And so to have like this like big move of like sort of like the the masterpiece of his game to be able to point that to will never forget Operation Italy when we talk about like some of these big moves in the history of the show, like isn't it whether or not Andy wins, like isn't that besides the point? Yeah, I mean, I do think especially if you're a big fan of the show, you know, of course, like, you know, you want this kind of signature move. You know, we are very frequently against big moves for their own sake. You know, we often say, you know, these these big flashy blindsides or whatever, you know, that people do just to like make big moves are really bad gameplay.

But, you know, to your point, Andy was, you know, he based this move on a very accurate self-perception. Like he was aware that he was not, you know, in that core group, that he was fifth in his alliance of five. You know, we even saw a scene literally supporting that. Now, whether that would have actually panned out at the final five, like would they have voted out Andy instead of trying to go for Rachel or Caroline? Like who's to say, but you know, he correctly, you know, intuited his, his position in the Alliance. And more importantly, he correctly intuited like how the jury perceived him. And that is really hard. You know, that's a really hard thing to do to like, no, as you're, as you're playing this game and as you, you know, you're a really hard thing to do to like, no, as you're, as you're playing this

game and as you, you know, you're working so hard and you're making your moves to know like, oh, the jury like does not respect me. They think, you know, they challenge one saw me in as this weak person. And that, that perspective has remained. I need to do something to shake that up. So like, I think from Andy's perspective to go from, you know, no chance of winning, you know, he doesn't have the allies to get him there. And even if he does get there, he's not going to get the vote to doing something. And especially, you know, that that could get him that resume point that couldn't earn him that respect. Like that to me seems like to justify this move. I posted on Twitter. Like I got a lot of backlash when I said, you know, is this the best move in the new era?

Now, obviously, like any kind of hyperbole like that, people are going to come in with receipts. So they're like, what about D? You know, what about Jesse? What about, you know, Marianne also doing a 3-2-2 split against Omer and then winning the game? Like, is Andy going to win the game? I think we should talk about it. I think probably not. You know, but, you know, I do think that this kind of gives him the talking point where if he does get there, he can say, you know, I did this thing. Yeah, I think it's also interesting in terms of like a resume point, if this is the type of move that is going to resonate with this jury about Andy based off of the perceptions that they already have for him, because I think you could have read it both ways

where like when there was the cody blind side i think it's noel uh who says on the jury it's like oh jesse did that ish right um she says um and then it was similar like oh andy flipped again and i think there's like two ways to interpret that of like so like wow like andy flipped again or is andy flipped again exactly i kind of think it's the latter because i think their perspective, Andy's a flipper and it is so hard in Survivor for someone who's perceived as a flipper to win because everybody feels betrayed by that person. Everybody feels like and, you know, people will think Genevieve and Sam, whom they already perceive as like big players, they were the ones to bring over Andy. You know, if Genevieve and Sam are on the jury, are they going to be kind of like

making the case? Hey, Andy was the one who came up with that plan convincing the jurors. I mean, I really think that's Andy's best bet is to get Genevieve and Sam onto the jury where they can kind of argue that he was the one who did it because, you know, and even if they one who did it because, you know,

and even if they do get over there, they might think they were the ones who did it. Right. And from their perspective, they did do it. Right. Like they also pulled off this move. They were a part of it, too. You know, the story we saw was it was Andy's idea that it was, you know, he kind of convinced Genevieve and Sam of this idea.

And then, you know, I think the most impressive part of this was the brilliant way he really sold it back to his alliance. And I think that's where this was a stellar move, right? It wasn't just coming up with this idea of this 3-2-2 plan. It wasn't just saying like, well, what if we did this? What if we moved the chess pieces in this way? It was having the social capital to pull it off and like incepting his alliance to split the votes in a way where he could pull it off. I mean, that's so hard. You know, we saw one of the great players of Survivor, Amanda Kimmel, you know, try to like get someone in her alliance, you know, get Parvati to do something that she wanted, like to play her idol. In this case, you know, Andy didn't want things to work out differently. But like, you know, to convince someone to do something by kind of like just laying enough of a hint that they pick up on it and run with it is so challenging that

is like the hardest survivor skill and so for andy to do that i think like that's to me where this kind of rises above other like big moves is because like it wasn't just like okay i've got three people we're all on the same side let's do this or it wasn't like i've got this like series of tools i'm gonna like make this play, which themselves are fantastic and exciting. It was like getting a lot of people to do exactly the right thing, using exactly the right little, like little pieces of bait.

Okay, for Andy, if he gets to the final tribal council, do you think that he could stick the landing and be able to articulate this move in a way that's going to resonate with the jury? Or do you think that he potentially takes too much credit for it in a way that's off-putting to the members of the jury? Yeah, I mean, that's the question. And I think it's probably the latter. I think they have decided this is who Andy is. And if you go in and you're like, no, I was the mastermind. I did these big things like it's just not going to.

And we've seen that recently. Who did that recently? I feel like we just talked about maybe it was Cassidy or someone did it recently where like they were arguing that they had played this like decisive game in the jury, whether or not it was true. The jury just did not see them that way. And so it was it just was like it fell flat because the jury was like, no, that wasn't my experience of you. And so I think that is really the challenge for Andy. It's like, can you ever shift someone's perception of you? You know, and like, you know, for Sue, Rachel and Teenie, like they're not and probably Caroline, too.

You know, they're going to think Andy flipped on us. They're not going to think Andy pulled off this brilliant move and like, you know, undid us. So it's going to be a real it's going to be hard for him. I want to ask you from I think it's going to I think you're right. I think I agree with you. I think that like we've seen Andy in sort of the way that Andy, I think, is very self aware.

But I also just wonder in that amount of time, how much can he change the perceptions of? But look, if anybody's going to be able to do it, I think it might be it might be Andy. And maybe he's a great talker. Yeah, he's great at being able to tell his story. So we'll we'll see how that goes. I kind of think he's not getting to the final three. I think that maybe I know you've talked about Rachel going out at fire. I'm wondering wondering maybe could

andy potentially go out in the fire yeah i mean i'm sort of reassessing everything i've said about the winner's day yes i saw your tweet about the teeny truth there's a bad ship yeah you really came out hard in favor of the teeny edit and saying teeny was gonna win and i was sort of no if you're gonna that's how i remember you're going if you're going to talk about what i got wrong i was very much in the camp uh for a week saying that caroline was the winner i i was a hundred percent bought in on caroline's winner edit so i i was i that's what i was wrong about uh but no i was not one of the teeny truthers well one of us whoever it was is not important not one of the teeny truthers Well, one of us, whoever it was Is not important, was very much pushing

That teeny was Winning this thing based on their edit And I think that after, I think tonight Kind of was the, like a giant nail I mean, there was always the question of like When is Teeny's edit going to ignite? We keep on hearing about, you know, Teeny's big plans To like avenge Saul, to like

Take ownership, and we weren't really seeing it What if it never happens? I think at this point, not only has it never happened you know, Teenie's big plans to like avenge Saul, to like take ownership. And we weren't really seeing it. What if it never happens? Yeah, I think at this point, not only has it never happened, but like, you know, with that whole thing with Sam, I feel like that was so coded negative. And like, I have a lot of empathy for Teenie. You know, I think that, you know, we forget just how much kind of survivor with how brutal it is in the conditions and how you know miserable you are it just like strips away all of our like better selves and

our defenses and like i certainly felt going back on cambodia like i went out there you know thinking of myself as like a 35 year old executive and like was reduced to this like sniveling teenage boy you know within within like days and it really does kind of like just like bring you back to all of your like neuroses and insecurities um so i have a lot of empathy for teeny as a human being that said big anti-hot person bias and i'm glad we finally you know talk i mean as a you call quarterback type myself you know i have can recognize these things. Well, but in all seriousness, you've always been a very pro-hot person.

I mean, those are always the people that you gravitate towards. And so that you called it. And Tini really came out very much not in favor of Sam. And Sam has, you know, I don't think he said like a crossword about any person in the entire season. Like he seems like nothing, but you know the golden retriever energy that you love. But yeah, very off-putting to teeny. Yeah. Well, again, like, I think like, you know, it's just like, you know, survivor brings us back to those, to those, those you know sort of like big archetypes and just being a quarterback type you know is is uh very uh you know those people they they have you know yeah it looks

hard it's a hard road for those people it's definitely a thing i'm sure that there are points and like uh if you go back into my own survivor journey like i've been bitter to not get picked for things and stuff like that. It sounds very much like something that I would do, but it just seemed like that. It was kind of like deep seated against Sam of like, that there's more like, I thought teeny was cool with Sam and Sierra,

like from going back to when they wanted to work with Gata, they were the ones that wanted to flip. And Genevieve was like, nah, I don't think so. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because this episode kind of like hinted that there was more for, you know, between Teenie and Sam and Genevieve than we saw. Should we just start calling her Genevieve? Like Kyle's exit where he exclusively called her Genevieve.

And then I heard Jeff calling her. Oh, yeah. In your interview with Kyle, he only says Genevieve. He doesn't say Genevieve ever. And then I was listening to Jeff and I feel like Jeff also is calling her Genev in your interview with with kyle he only says genevieve he doesn't say genevieve ever and then i was listening to jeff and i feel like jeff also is calling her genevieve a little bit um is that a nickname maybe i don't know i i just assumed that it was you know an error but you know because jeff also said tiara misu jeff really had some odd pronunciations on the entire Operation Italy feast of that when he was talking about the we've got crisp, cool Caesar salad. It's like really described it very bizarrely.

But yeah, Tierra Masu. Again, I don't know if Jeff is doing any hosting at the Olive Garden, maybe just just on Survivor. maybe just just on Survivor. So just going back to Teenie, it does feel as though Teenie is headed towards the final three is headed towards potentially. What do you think? Second or third?

I think Sue and Teenie are both in the finals, and I think that they are second and third. And I think it might be tough to figure out who is the. I don't think either of them get zero votes, but I think that they are second and third. And I think it might be tough to figure out who is the I don't think either of them get zero votes, but I think that they finish two, three. Right. I mean, Saul, we can really see as a vote for teeny. Right. Saul has talked a lot about I mean, you even see teeny getting a handful like, you know, Sierra we've seen has talked a lot

about how much she loves teeny. Yeah, it's tricky because is there a way that Kyle is Sue's only vote? Carolina's going to vote for Sue, right? Is Gabe maybe not going to vote for Sue? I kind of can see a world because with your interview with Kyle, which I thought was so funny, was he was like, yeah, I really liked it. Like, I thought me and Sue were cool. Like, is there a world where he votes for Sue? Wouldn't that be great? Like, is there a world where he votes for Sue?

Wouldn't that be great? It's kind of like, yeah, well. It's possible that I kind of feel like that I see Teenie, I see Sue and I see like one of the other threats there. And I see that Kyle like sort of like self-identifying as like, oh, I, too, was one of the threats and that's the person. So like in a way is voting for himself. I think probably Rachel. So I think that Kyle could potentially end up going there. Yeah, I do think Rachel now is the fire winner instead of the fire loser. Like that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, it's also possible that Rachel just like wins out because she's done really well in challenges.

You know, so I think that there's a world where Rachel wins out and has nothing to do with fire. But fire was in her glasses and that happened. That happened. That did happen. So, OK, let's talk about this from Rachel's perspective, because I think that this was a very interesting spot for her. She wins the immunity and I think kind of ruins the plan. I'd like to also talk to you about whether or not they should have pivoted once Rachel won the immunity to potentially if you're Andy, maybe call the whole thing off at that point. at that point. But in from Rachel's perspective, do you think that Rachel was a little indifferent as to what was going to happen considering that she had immunity and like worst case scenario was one of these other people go home and that Sam and Genevieve, the two bigger threats, stay in the game and hide her for another round? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a world where if

Rachel had not won immunity, she's playing either the of vote or her idol there where she has to you know she is aware that she's the big you know a threat there in that group if they're splitting the vote i think it's it's not impossible that she plays her block about there in this situation she even brings it up like hey maybe i play the block of votes we don't even have to worry about them and um andy kind of talks her out of it right he says like oh no we need to save that for six but But I think if she's vulnerable, like to me, I could see using that like one that one kind of like less important in her arsenal piece just to make sure she gets to six. But I kind of wonder if that she's not as involved with like what they're doing on the vote split in this vote just because she's like ah i'm a mean what's the worst that's gonna happen yeah right and i i do think that i think there's probably something there where like if if um you know if you are not the one who is at risk it doesn't really totally you know like we were talking about this a lot on um on blue sky with um some like uh daniel victor

uh you know who he was like saying like you, does this kind of change people's impression of should you split the votes? Because it always does create the room for this third faction to come in. And I was like, my argument is that all that matters is does splitting or not splitting the votes, how does that jeopardize you? If you are, as a decision maker, as the person kind of pushing one path or the other, you know, so in Cambodia, I didn't want to split the savage vote because I thought there was a very likely chance that a third faction would come in and vote for me. But if they played an idol, it was probably savage going home,

which is what happened. So like if if, you know, on the other hand, I did split a later vote in that season. And that was disastrous for me because it was me going home. So I, you know, maybe should have been more conservative in that moment. I think that's always the question is, does the split or the not split? Like, how does that actually affect me, you know, versus the chance that I get out the person I want to get out? So so that's an interesting rule of thumb. I haven't ever heard it described that way. I think that we sort of like look at these survivor things as sort of like being like one size fits all. But you're saying that from a very like self-interested point of view, that if there's a chance that the split vote is going to backfire on me, don't you should be arguing not to do it. Because you could argue that even though this was not Rachel's move, the biggest beneficiary from what happened in Operation Italy was Rachel.

Because she gets out, you know, probably the biggest threat to her in her group, who like, you know, if they did get to four, like Sue and Caroline are locked tight, you know, and especially having that extra vote with Sue,

who's like not a threat to win. That gives Caroline so much more leverage at that final four. And Rachel doesn't know about Sue's idol that Caroline has access to. Now, again, they don't know about Rachel's idol that Caroline has access to. Now, they don't know about Rachel's idol.

But, you know, I had the way I had thought the season was going to break down was that I thought it was going to be Caroline who ends up being the person who gets in the last shot, getting out Rachel and then is the person who sits there at the end with Sue and teeny and ends up being the winner. up being the winner. Now, I think that because of this and really having nothing to do with Rachel other than her winning immunity, I think that Rachel is just like in this really prime position to be the winner of the season. Yeah, I totally agree. I really I completely agree. I mean, there's still two really big threats out there, right, with Genevieve and Sam. And like, that's obviously the downside is. But that helps her. Well, right, exactly, because it's insulation like those people have to be targeted. But if one of them wins immunity, I mean, can Sam win? I the thing I've been most surprised by, you know, in sort of the general survivor community analysis of this season is like nobody is giving Sam odds to win. And like to me, he seems like a totally viable contender here.

here so i i think that um it's hard to imagine the scenario where sam does win for me in thinking about it other than you know uh like jt and toga jeans who hadn't won individual immunity if he's sort of like now all of a sudden at six six five and four or six and five and wins fire uh and gets to the final three based off and you know and, and he's there with Teenie and Sue. Like, I think that that's probably the one win condition. But I think that if he's there with Rachel or if he's there with Genevieve, I think he's probably not the winner. Yeah, but I think that I mean, I don't think that's so crazy that he could be there at the finals with with that group specifically. Like, you know, next week to presumably they're targeting Genevieve, who's still considered the biggest threat.

Now, there are some people who think they might flip it to Andy, but I just don't, and that's possible, right? There's probably a lot of animosity from him, you know, for him from Teenie and- Sue is going to be, I think, leading the charge. Yeah, so there's a very good possibility that Andy does go home next.

But there's also, you only have two votes left in the game you still have genevieve and sam there i think they have to target genevieve if sam just wins out one immunity like he's in the final four and yeah um then there's a world where he beats rachel for fire and wins i don't know i don't think it's crazy but i do think it's either rachel or sam in my mind he's not he's not drawing dead for sure. I just think that especially in like if we get into the edit, like in terms of like the Operation Italy of it all, like I think that he was like a distant third in terms of like the people like putting together this big move. That said, Sam is the one who invited Andy on reward. And that was where this all was hatched. Like that was a great choice.

I mean, you know, he could have invited Teenie who invited teeny who would seemed apparently teeny i guess seemed like more of the swing vote but he chose andy and that created enough good blood between them for andy to come up with his plan and so i kind of think like that was sort of the you know the sort of like first role of the marble that's not a good metaphor. Something, the snowball, start of the snowball. A little better. That kind of like put this all in motion. So I do think Sam deserves like some partial credit because that was a really good choice.

Yeah, let's talk about Sam's decisions that he made at the reward. And so he talked about how he felt like he owed Andy. about how he felt like he owed Andy. And I thought that that was so interesting because, you know, Andy was the person who sort of like started the marble rolling of Sam being on the bottom of the marble. Yeah. Yes. Into a snow marble. And, you know, Sam and Sierra were sort of like he talked about them as the cool kids in high school. And he's all and she's all that. And he's going to take his glasses off and he's going to flip against Sam and Sierra. And then I kind of thought that Sam was sort of like floundering on the bottom. I said he was in the Troys and zone.

But then he seemed to like want to make peace with Andy, which ultimately turned out to be, you know, a great decision for him to make. I just was unclear other than if he's just being like totally strategic about it, why he and he seems sincere about like, I feel like I owe Andy and I didn't treat him the way that he should have been treated earlier in the game. Just seemed like a very self-aware and I don't think that's the right word, but a very like enlightened way to like look at where he was in the game. Yeah. I mean, for all that, he's an evil hot person.

Sam does seem to be like, like extremely kind and, you know, like generous and thoughtful and like emotionally in touch with himself. He was getting mocked for being too generous. Yeah. Right. Right.

Yeah. So I don't know. And also like he probably did promise Andy at some point. And I do think, you know, survivors really care about those promises. And maybe Sam's just counting jury votes at that point. And I do think, you know, survivors really care about those promises. And maybe Sam's just counting jury votes at that point, right? Maybe he's thinking, if I can somehow get there, I want Andy to vote for me. Maybe he's not even thinking I can flip

Andy, right? Like, and I like made him this promise and I need to do damage control there. So he's, but either way, you know, I'm sure some of it was strategic and some of it was human. And that's kind of like, what makes this such a devilish game. And that's kind of what Genevieve was talking about again this week, in addition to last week, of how she had cut off this part of herself that was actually inhibiting her game. Steven, do you see a path forward for these three of Genevieve and Sam? Sam. And if Andy like I do kind of get the sense Andy flips back now to now take out Genevieve or Sam, because how do they get around Rachel's block of vote? Yeah. Well, also, I mean, people I think a lot of people who are like, this is such a bad move for Andy. Now it's three, three and and and Rachel has a block of vote. That's assuming that this is like the formation of these new of these new voting blocks or alliances.

I don't see that to be the case. You know, I'm sure Andy doesn't see that to be the case. And he doesn't want to sit there with Sam and especially with Genevieve, you know, from Andy's perspective, like clearing out someone from that other group. A gives him a big move in front of the jury and B opens up a spot at the final four that just wasn't available to him. But I'm sure, you know, part of the appeal of this move is that it also leaves all these other big targets in the game who might be more meaty targets than him. You know, so you have Genevieve there. You have Sam there. I'm sure he's going to want to flip back against those people, both because, you know, it kind of insulates him, but also because that is the correct rational move to make. You know, to get you have two votes left. You've got to get out these big targets before they sit in front of the jury. You know, to get you have two votes left. You've got to get out these big targets before they sit in front of the jury. OK, do you think that there is maybe some other Hail Mary in the form of production that could still be out there for this this particular group?

For instance, could there be a journey in this next episode where one player could potentially lose their vote, opening up the door for potentially a path for a Sam, Genevieve and Andy. Would they do a lose a vote at the in the finale? Like that feels a little bit, you know, now that it's the two part finale, the last episode. So, you know, you're right. There's probably that typically they do an advantage of a challenge advantage, a challenge advantage. I'm trying to think of there's already two idols in the game. So it's very hard to imagine that there's a another idol. But they're going to start over at a new beach. I'm trying to think of there's already two idols in the game, so it's very hard to imagine that there's a another idol. But they're going to start over at a new beach, right?

That's usually the final five. But like, if this is the finale, I don't think they did that last season. Oh, really? I think that they that they all brought their stuff to camp. I think that they didn't

end up doing it. So, you know, we'll see how it ultimately breaks down in terms of this two part finale. Do you have any thoughts on the two part finale? It seems a little silly, you know? Yeah.

It's like there's literally, you know, not next week, but this week after is literally the finale. Do you think that part of it will be continued? Do you think that we'll get like a normal six and five vote coming up next week? That's my guess. I mean, it would be, you know, and then maybe they go into the final four and I mean, we'll see, like, hopefully it's something that justifies it. That's not just like splitting the existing structure into two, into two longer episodes, but Hey, whatever, whatever sells the most ad dollars and keeps, you know, the show on longest I'm down with if calling it a two part finale, like ups the sale price of a 32nd spot, like God bless. They call it a 14 part

finale. Yeah. i'd be fine if they do six and five i'm worried that they would get a final six vote and then uh we end up with like some sort of like cliffhanger around the final five vote that we don't i'm sure they'll do that would be really annoying that would be really annoying i hope they don't do that that would be well yeah we'll see and then it's only two hours uh coming up on the uh finale night right which is great for everybody. We don't have to stay up so late. Perfect.

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so going back to andy and uh i raised the question of should andy potentially have pivoted once rachel did not uh or once rachel was not available as the target because Operation Italy, you take out Rachel, you take out her block of vote, really just completely, it's a totally different game for Andy and Sam and Genevieve at that point that they have potentially, okay, they could say like, hey, we're gonna go to rock.

So, you know, they have options of potentially like, Teenie, do you wanna draw a rock tonight? Come on, what are you gonna do? And I think that they potentially like have outs there, but when it's not Rachel, like did it was, was there any other off ramp for Andy to do something different? I think at the point that he has the plan in place, you know, it's, it is too good a plan. It's too tasty. You know, you want to have that moment and, and you know,'s it is too good a plan it's too tasty you know you want to have that moment and and um you know he's also thinking about survivor 50 right you got to create a resume not just for the jury of your uh of other contestants but the uh the cat the jury of casting associates wondering if you should be on uh next season sure and he's done a great job of that but like could his big

move have been could he like uh his big move be like sort of last minute reveal Operation Italy to the women and that his big move is ultimately he had Sam and Genevieve going one way and at the last second turns his back on them and potentially is able to, you know, you know, set himself up in a different way with that, you know, knowing that Rachel is going to have the block of vote. If his ultimate goal is to get to the end, like, I just wonder if that's an easier path than to continue on with what they had already come up with. I don't know. That feels like every disappointing episode of Survivor where you hear some like big plan brewing and then someone at the last minute is like, nah, let's just forget the big plan and go with the ordinary thing. And Andy seems to have like very great awareness of it. I mean, you know, the other thing I mean, there's a lot of parallels between andy and cochran right super fan who flips

on his alliance um you know is is castigated by his his uh the rest of the cast as a flipper and then comes back three seasons later for a big all-star season and then wins it all okay um yeah the andy journey like i definitely see the similarities um but you know uh andy has had just more runway in terms of like uh being able to do more i think that once cochran uh you know and maybe also like sam uh has been like a little bit more forgiving than the members of Cochran's original tribe who basically said, you're dead to us. Don't ever talk to us again. You disgust me. You disgust me. So Cochran was kind of locked in with Upolu after he ends up flipping on them. So it is an interesting observation.

If, you know, a lot of people want to come back and work with Andy down the road, like I definitely could see that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, listen, Cochran had that when he when he came in, right? Like everybody wanted to work with Cochran in season 26. So, you know, I do think kind of being the lovable. Honestly, like Cochran's nerdy persona was maybe more extreme than Andy's is. And so I think that that kind of served him well. We don't need to talk about that.

But no, you know what? I'll say that I think that the other parallel here is that both of them are sort of like, I would say like, you know, maybe aren't necessarily the winner or the best player, but certainly like the person who has dominated the airtime. And I think that like as the alumni really do gravitate towards the players

who are sort of like, okay, these are the big stars. These are the hot commodity, the big name. So I do think that there were a lot of people that came back in Survivor Karamoan that wanted to hobnob with like the, you know, you know, a person who was like just had recently been very famous on Survivor. And I think that that is something that does. There's a gravitational pull to that. Yeah yeah it really is true um you know i you know who's to say a lot of this was so much like dependent on what's actually happening behind the scenes in the

survivor community you know i i did feel like at that you know pre pre uh caramo and there was a lot of like you know well with friendships honestly it wasn't just pre-gaming it was like friendships you know they you know cochran was friends with Andrea and Francesca. And, you know, those relationships were real. You know, and maybe Andy is, you know, if he's smart, he's, you know, really creating those deep bonds with the people of the, who knows? Who knows? All right. So let's talk about where we go from here all right so we have our final six now set and we do have two boots coming up potentially uh on next wednesday night in part one of our finale do you think that ends up being genevieve sam uh or uh the opposite order i do think i just think genevieve is not

getting there right i mean as much as i want her to get genevieve is so fun she's like such like all her kooky expressions and like her little like mantras about food during the attack, like during the challenge. It's so great. She's like, I really hope she's cast again because she's such like a great player. She's very fun. She plays a strong game and like also kind of is like goofy in this way. That's really, really appealing. I think she's also the leading contender.

I think she's leading a number one contender for uh the host the on fire podcast next season you think genevieve over rachel uh i do yes i kind of feel like rachel is rachel is the pick to win uh for me but and i also think that rachel i think we could be in potentially in two weeks talk about rachel uh potentially uh the best player of the new era. I think if it's not too premature to say that, but I do think that Genevieve is more likely to get the podcast opportunity. Yeah, that's interesting. I sort of think Rachel is more like, we'll see. Should we put knowing us know it all on the line for who goes to see on fire? fire i mean we won't find out until uh february but like sure if that's if that's what you want to do uh i was also thinking uh that potentially could it be

somebody that uh do they ever double back from somebody else from the uh new era like a marianne or jam jam or somebody else that would be fun that would actually be a good you know a nice a nice uh that doesn't count as winning you got we get it's genevieve or rachel if it's jam jam okay yeah marianne i mean marianne would be very i mean either of those people would be great but i mean i'm i'm such a marianne fan now that we're i'm playing clock tower with her and i see like the absolute um you know high octane lunacy she brings um it's very very fun to uh she brings a lot of fun energy to uh to the podcast but yeah i i think that um if i that would be my number one pick uh is there is there anybody else that you can imagine from this um from like just this season 47 from 47 i don't think it will be andy andy has great

confessionals but i don't think it will be him because i think he's got like chaotic yeah too chaotic i mean i honestly i would say sam i don't think he'll do like charlie than sam you know like back to back so i think that makes it less likely sam's a you know a reporter and a broadcaster so i think he'd certainly had like would have the chops to do it i just don't think that they go in that direction um is there a world where it's rome rob does rome have a shot i think that rome would just be uh like two all over the place. Like, I think that that show is like and Charlie does a really good job on it with Jeff and Jay. And like, I think that they like go to the alumni for like a very specific like, all right, tell us what this is like. Right. And I just think that like having somebody who's too much of a wild card in that spot on the podcast i mean again based off of like how it's been with

rick and with d uh and with charlie like i think they're looking for like sort of like tight answers that are very much like able to like give us the experience of what the player is like yeah yeah i don't i don't think i don't think rome is like i think that rome uh could be fun in a lot of other uh use cases but i don't see him in that like uh like kind of like you know very specific spot yeah what about i'm just looking at the list no honestly those are that those are the big ones i mean i don't think it's going to be gabe you know i think he's gonna be competitive i think he could do a good job with i just don't think that that's the direction of that they want to go uh i mean honestly honestly, Teenie would be very good.

Teenie could be fun, bring a lot about the fandom and what it is to be a little bit more of an emotional player in terms of that. But, you know, actually, in terms of— And Teenie's been a big narrator all season, too. So, I mean, obviously, they'll love their soundbites. Yeah. love their soundbites. Yeah. Now that we're talking about Charlie and the On Fire podcast, I feel like that there's maybe some similarity

here where Charlie, I think, had a big move planned against Maria at the final seven, and then she ends up winning immunity. And it kind of ends up screwing up his game, where he doesn't get the chance to necessarily get his big pelt on the wall of the person who was the target that he got out, that he could really show some of the people on the jury that he had his big move. And so for Rachel winning immunity, like I think that that was probably a bigger issue

for like the effectiveness of this for Andy in front of the jury. Well, for sure. And also, I mean, I do think that's right. You know, and certainly in terms of like eliminating a lot of advantages from the game. I think getting rid of Caroline is honestly just as strong. I mean, you know, you were saying that she was in a good spot to win, you know, and breaking up the Caroline Sue duo, like coming into six and then certainly five and four. Like that's a really scary duo because it really is like removing the options for everybody else. So I think that it's not bad to get, I honestly think it's,

it's, it's, it's just as good. I mean, the thing I want to say about this move is like, you know, or I guess maybe ask you like a lot of people have said, we'll see what happens next week.

Right? Like does Andy get immediately voted out? Does Andy win? And it's so hard to determine like, what is, you know, like what is a fair assumption of, or a fair question of like, did you put yourself like when, when Emily did that whole thing with, what is, you know, like what is a fair assumption of, or a fair question of

like, did you put yourself like when, when Emily did that whole thing with, with Bruce, right. And she took a lot of credit for Bruce's ouster. We're like, you shouldn't have done that. Right. That was too big, too big. You made too big of a target on yourself. And then you were immediately voted out. Um, you know, where is it like bad play to put yourself in that spot? And where is it like results oriented thinking to like question, you know, oh, he didn't win. Therefore, this wasn't good. I mean, you know, Suri blindsided Eric. She didn't win, but we still call it one of the best moves of all time in Survivor. Is that results oriented thinking?

Like, no. And I think it comes from my perspective. It comes down to what I think. But like, you know, what do you think about it? So I think that it's there's two different things that are going on. And Andy has talked about even in this episode, he talked about my survivor legacy. And I think that for Andy, I think that he may not be as concerned with whether or not he's the ultimate winner. I'm sure he would love to be the winner.

be the winner. But I think it's more important for Andy to come out and play the game that he wants to play to be, you know, remembered for somebody and have this legacy of it was a great move for us, for the viewers. We won last night with Andy going through with this move in terms of Andy and getting closer to the win. I don't really think that this is how you win Survivor in the new era and with a move like this. I think it's a little bit more everybody what we've seen over the last couple of weeks of everybody cards close to the vest. OK, I just need to make the last big move, not necessarily to take out this move. And I wonder also in the eyes of the jury if like we can see okay yeah getting out caroline was good because caroline was set up to be able to snipe rachel and get the win but in the eyes of the jury it's like wait hold on this was your move and you left genevieve in the game and you

left sam in the game uh to take out caroline like i think it could also be just like confusing to them of like wait why did you do this like those the threats. Why your big move was to take out not one of the threats. But I mean, like we know that the underdog alliance is actually the top dog alliance. Right. And that I think, you know, so I just the jury feel that. Right. Like, well, that's it. Yeah. So I don't agree with you. That's why America should vote because you know, your rationale of like, oh, well, it's a great move for us, the audience. And what's your survivor legacy? Like to me, that opens the door to like the world of big move-itis.

You know, like that's like, oh, I made a big move. I voted out my ally, you know, at the final 10. Like, and I, I stand against that. But here I think at the final seven, where Andy knows he has no shot to win at this point. Like to me, even if it doesn't pan out, he has to do something to destabilize the game. Like to me, even if it doesn't pan out, he has to do something to destabilize the game. And, and, you know, he's got to make a move that can like change the jury's perception of him, or at least open the door for him to have a spot in that final four. And so, you know, like, where is it like, you know, Emily Flippen being too visible with Bruce and where is it, you know, Andy,

like having, being so desperate that he has to do something like, where is it right? And again, like, I just think it comes down to what I think in that moment. Like that's, I'm the ultimate arbiter. Um, but I don't, I don't agree. I don't agree that, you know, we should like, you know, credit it just because it's like a big survivor legacy move. Cause like, again, like, I think that's like, that's where this whole like new era has become like somewhat intolerable, you know, like, Oh, I'm going to have my big move. Like I'm going to be on the Mount Rushmore. No offense to, um, you know, those who might've said that. Yeah. But I just think that there's two different things that I think that there's one thing of like the players that go, they go out there and they have like, they want to be seen in a certain way. And if it's like the game is so random at times, like I don't know if every person's game is optimized for this is the closest to the game winning movement.

is optimized for this is the closest to the game winning move. And maybe you could like talk yourself into it and sort of like have some sort of like reality distortion of like, OK, I'm making these big moves and this is what's going to ultimately get me to the end. But I just think in terms of like what we've seen in terms of what wins in the new era, it isn't necessarily making the big moves. But when we talk about people who have a legacy and people who are remembered and on that Mount Rushmore and potentially getting called to play in anniversary seasons of Survivor, if you're optimizing for that, I think that it looks a little bit different than the game that you would make to have the best shot to winning. Yeah. I mean, I do think that it's a lot of it

is also just dependent on your perception, right? I much of winning survivor is sitting in the jury with like enough credit next to people who are less likely to win right it's not just like what is my like in the abstract you know floating in a void like will they vote for me it's will they vote for me next to two people and what do i have to do to justify that vote and i i think in this case this might be what andy had to do he had to to have like, you know, in the same way that Marianne had to vote out Omer. Right. In the same way that Gabler needed like one thing that the jury could hang their hats on. And that was, you know, the oh, my God, the fire making. Well, fire making, too. Right. That was that was big, too. So I do think like this could be if andy pitches it correctly this

could be like the one thing that is his thing and i i mean if we're saying andy doesn't make it to the final three i think there's a world where like everyone's like we gotta stop andy he's the one who's got this crazy move you know um so there's also a world where he gets the final three and everyone's like andy you were flipper we we hated it you were on the bottom you know we're not going to reward that but um to me like he had to do something to just establish his credentials and it couldn't just be persisting to the end and being likable because he knew the jury didn't like him that way yeah it's just that um the road to get there is uh almost impossible outside of him like, you know, winning, winning or at least winning the fire at this point. And so, you know, maybe that there was a different path that sort of like laid low a little bit and had like a more like surgical strike at the end.

But you're right. Is that would that have been enough to get him to win? Where? Like he wouldn't have had the leverage. He doesn't have any idols or anything. Right. been enough to get him the win where like he wouldn't have had the leverage he doesn't have any idols or anything right and he's got you know there's this group of like the four the four women like is is kind of like coalescing you know as this women's alliance and we're all like posting each other and then the only leverage he has is about to be voted out that night and presumably the next night so it's like you've got one last chance to do something before you have zero tools in the game. Could you incite some kind of like a battle between Caroline and Rachel

where they're going after each other and then they forget about him? You know, I think that there were some potential other moves, but look, I think that for Andy, I think that, you know, when you optimize for, you know, doing the most exciting thing, I think that you're rarely, you know, look, the game is so fickle.

You can't control so little. If you have the opportunity to make this type of a move, I think you're very compelled to do it on Survivor. I mean, this was so frustrating about Katora's game, right? It was, we kept on waiting for Katora to like flip on that dominant group. And we just kept waiting and waiting and waiting. And then ultimately she didn't have the time.

You know, by the time, you know, it got down to it, Couture didn't have any resources. And so I think like to me, like this is almost a reaction against that. Right. You don't want like those are the kind of players who end up losing the game unspectacularly. You know, you'd rather lose the game spectacularly. Yeah. One last thing I want to go back to from last week. We were debating Genevieve versus Kyle. What was the right decision for the vote for last week? I was not worried about Kyle winning out on the immunities.

Operation Italy doesn't happen if it's Kyle, Sam and Andy. Right. Well, because Kyle's won immunity there. Right. Well, because Kyle's won immunity there. I mean, then Sam just goes home. Like Genevieve was capable of doing things in the game with all due respect to Kyle that Kyle would not have been able to, you know, sell a fake idol and, you know, get teeny buying that. OK, this is real and have a great story and craft the the fake immunity idol. craft the the fake immunity idol. So I just think that I would optimize for getting out the more capable player if I had to make that decision as opposed to the immunity threat. But for Caroline, was it the right decision? I would argue no. Conclusively, no wrong decision to vote out Kyle. Now, that's results oriented thinking. But even I asked her in the exit interview that question,

and she actually said that she still felt like that it was the right decision to make because that Kyle was somebody who was actively like not voting with her. And while Genevieve was scary that she felt like that, it wasn't necessarily about that. He was going to win out all the immunities that she just felt like that. He was somebody who was like, you know, actively not on their side. Yeah. I mean, the real question is, was voting out Gabe the wrong, the wrong move? And the answer is yes. They should not have voted out Gabe so soon. Hmm. Yeah. Just from Caroline specifically, like I think for a lot of people, I think they look

back at that point in the game of like, oh yeah, getting out Gabe was not the right thing to do. And yeah, it totally flipped the power dynamics in the game and which was the goal. It really did it to the detriment of the people who had power. Right. Yeah. Like, you know, that was like Kyle and Caroline. You know, well, Caroline ended up still in a very strong position of power, actually. So like this was like really bad luck from Caroline's perspective. Well, let's talk about that part of it. Like, did the dominant alliance screw the pooch? Which time? Well, this time. I mean, yes, they screwed the pooch. But time well this time i mean yes they screwed the pooch but how badly like they were they were gulled they were they were tricked um but should

they have known better yeah on the vote split yeah i think that a good point and i know shannon was talking about this with evy of like uh the person who first raises the specter like the person uh who is uh concerned about the possibility of an idol, like that person should not be in the position where if they flip their vote, they need to be on the shorter side of the vote split. Right. The most likeliest person to flip. Yeah, that's a great point. That is a great point. There's zero chance Teenie is flipping. OK, Teenie. All right. You're you're voting for Sam tonight. OK, like Caroline and Sue, like you're not flipping. OK, we don're you're voting uh for sam tonight okay like uh caroline and sue

like you're not flipping okay uh we don't know if it was for sam or genevieve by the way i'm assuming that there was three for sam right because they assumed genevieve a lot of people were like why didn't they just stack votes on sam um i think it was three for sam then not three for genevieve um i think that they were going to do three on Genevieve because they were very much trying to think that they that they wanted Sam, though. Oh, they wanted to flush the idol, though, so they wanted to force the idol flush. So that's that they might have done three for Genevieve. That's that's fair. OK. All right, Stephen.

What a great episode. Really the high point of Survivor 47 so far. So only two Wednesday nights left. Anything else you want to add? Oh, the fishy. Oh, obviously for Andy. We got to give it to Andy. I was thinking of you because they kept talking about like,

like somebody's sleeping with the fishies. Like who's getting the fishies? Yeah. Yeah. So definitely would be Andy. I mean, I do think Sam deserves credit for bringing Andy on reward, but you know, that's more like an honorable mention. And Jen did a good job of selling the idol.

It's interesting the way she did it with Teenie. We know Teenie against her. From even Sam's perspective, Teenie was someone they had been trying to win over, and that seemed to be why Teenie was so mad that they weren't taken for the reward was

because they had the perception that genevieve and sam should be trying to win them over even if they were not winnable which is a little unfair that was such a such a ridiculous argument of it just doesn't be like in teeny's life like well teeny were you gonna flip like no like well why was it such a dumb move for them to say like well they they should have thought i'm gonna flip even, even though I'm not going to. Yeah. In general, I was not a great episode for Jeannie. I mean, the whole thing with Genevieve, you know, where they ask Genevieve, oh, you'll

you think Rachel is a bigger threat than me? And then he says, yeah, which is a totally reasonable thing for Genevieve to say, because sure, it's just it's not a slam dunk. Like what? I can't beat Rachel. You don't think my game is as good as Rachel. Right. And it got so personal.

And like she came down hard on Genevieve rather than, you know, sort of like take that. And she doesn't have to believe Genevieve. You know, it's it's just could be that, you know, that that I mean, it makes sense for Genevieve to say that you want to stay in the game. You want the target to flip over to Rachel. So it's not like a threat against Teenie. It's just Genevieve playing survivor. Yeah. And look at the way Rachel handled that same information.

Like, OK, yeah, that makes sense. They're trying to get it on me. Like, OK, I know this is actionable information of like, OK, this is how the jury sees these people. Like Teenie doesn't need to get indignant that Genevieve thinks that Rachel is playing a better game. I just like you. I think about what you say all the time of everybody is the hero of their own narrative. I'm playing the best game. Did you see what I've been doing these 26 days? Obviously, this is I've got the best story to tell to the jury. Look at look at everything that I've gone through. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I think like but but that's, what's, what's so good about Andy,

you know, realizing that the jury doesn't think that about him. Right. I mean, having this awareness is so hard, you know, just to know exactly what the jury is thinking is so challenging. I think in both my seasons, I was wrong. You know, I think in token chains, I thought they might recognize my game a little more. And in Cambodia, I was so paranoid that they didn't recognize my game enough that I kept them being like, I got to go bigger. I got to go bigger, you know? And I learned after the fact, like, no, they were cheering for me, you know, like they were rooting me on. I had no idea. And so, you know, can I ask you, do you have the thinking back? Is there a way that you can surmise how the jury is viewing you?

No, because so much of the jury is performance, too. You know, I think it really is. That's what's so tricky about it is like you just don't know, you know, and I think that like, you know, maybe you try to exchange little smiles and glances with them and see what they're reacting to. I think Wentworth was really good at that in Cambodia, just constantly like turning like when Jeff would ask her a question or when there was a decision point, she'd like turn to the jury and be like, oh, not like, oh, but like she would kind of like, you know, look to us for guidance. And I think that that made the jury feel powerful, you know, in a way. But but it's so hard because so much of what the jury thinks is not even based on what they were thinking in the game. It's like based on like whatever, like hothouse lunacy gets, you know, happens at Ponderosa. So it's it's it's really so much lunacy. Did you take part in Cambodia?

I was I just sat in my cabin and read. But there was definitely a hothouse lunacy happening. I was not a part of that. OK. All right. One day we'll hear all about it. All right. Yeah. Anything else?

I would say is like, yeah. The only other thing we didn't talk about was oh wait now i've forgotten um well there was something else but i i didn't i don't remember it travesty oh well yeah all right well hopefully it comes back to you in the next uh moment or so but anyway we have our uh my exit interview with uh with caroline is up as well yes how fun it was Tribal Council when like Sam turns to Genevieve like you got to play it. You got to play it. And he's like, no, I'm good. I'm good. You know, just kind of like both stopping anybody else from playing their idol and then also kind of like maintaining the fiction into the next episode that, hey, there really was an idol, you know, and it wasn't didn't get played.

I thought that was very fun. You know, I didn't think about that there. I was like, isn't this a little an idol, you know, and it wasn't didn't get played. I thought that was very fun. You know, I didn't even think about that there. I was like, isn't this a little much like, come on, come on. You've already voted. Give it up. But yeah, so we'll see if the I mean, could that idol potentially be a factor? You know, when we're talking about how did we get past everything that's going on with the vote block? Like, could that potentially Genevieve's perceived idol be some kind of a, you know, a MacGuffin that gets them through this final six?

Yeah. And there's a world, too, where like Andy just tells him, hey, that was a fake idol. I mean, you know, so much we know. I've gone back to Emily Flippen, you know, so many times in this episode. And, you know, so many times in this episode and, you know, so much of what we, she did wrong was really owning it the next day. And I think it's such a delicate balance because you want to say, Hey, this was my moment. This was my move, but you don't want to be like, look at me, um, the tallest puppy, you know? So, so, um, the, and I think that's going to be the real, you know, a needle for Andy to threat is how much is he able to say, here's how I put this together versus being like, I really, you know, owned this one, you know, you guys. So it'll, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see how that works, how that plays

out. Okay. All right, Steven, a great job here today. Very fun discussion talking about everything from operation Italy and any final thoughts no i mean really fun episode um you know obviously hype i don't even know it was hyper i mean maybe not like the best move of the new era and again like because there were so many great moves you know um but definitely one of like the hardest moves to pull off of the new era i think um one of the most exciting moves of the new era you know just oh let me just qualify it all by saying one of so that whoever has their like hobby horse move won't get won't get mad about it but um yeah it was a really just like the so hard to pull off that level and the jesse the jesse cody thing was also very hard to pull off that was really that was really quite quite good but um yeah the the amount of work

andy put into that was yeah spectacular and the show, I thought, also rose to the level of the moment of did a really great job of selling it with the score. And it was very like themed and fun. And so that was also just like very cool to watch. I don't think it's necessarily a move that gets Andy the win on the season, but it's definitely the move that when we think back to Survivor 47, I do think that Operation Italy is going to be the defining thing that we talk about. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. All right, Steven, we'll be back together in a week to talk about everything else that's going on. Any, anything else coming up for you? No,

just, you know, happy to talk to you in a week. Okay. It's cold. It's cold here. Is it cold there? Are you cold?

Not freezing cold in Houston. Well, no, but in like, yeah, in Raleigh. Yeah, it's, it's certainly, it's cold here. Is it cold there? Are you cold? Not freezing cold in Houston. Well, no, but in like, yeah, in Raleigh. Yeah, it's it's certainly it's I mean, winter is coming, they say. Hmm. Yeah. All right. So I will also have on Saturday the Q&A that's going to be at 11 a.m. Eastern on Friday.

Got to still take the first lady of podcasting to some doctor's appointments and then can't get to my regular Friday schedule on our patron Q&A. So we'll do it on Saturday and then Club Condo and the Wand Off is going to be back on Monday night with Josh Wiggler and Chappelle. So we will be listening to all of the Survivor 47 song parodies together on Monday night. So be on the lookout for that. And then we'll be back. Italian job also easier to rhyme for a wand off.

Have they gone Italian job? You know, like a lot of things you can rhyme job with Italy. Operation Italy. Hard to harder to turn into a song. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Skibbity.

Spiddily. Yeah. Skibbity. Skibbity. Yeah. People like that. OK. All right Alright thank you so much For joining us

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