RHAP: We Know Survivor - Know-It-Alls: Survivor 48 Ep 9

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Today, Rob and Stephen discuss Survivor 48 episode 9.

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The smartest guys around are about to break it down like they want. What's up, you've been? Good, how are you? Ooh, good. You ready for this today? Yeah, I got a lot to say. This is a meaningful episode for me.

Really? How about you? You know, you're I'm surprised the well never runs dry for you, bro. Do you realize what else I'd be doing if I didn't have this?

Not just you give and you give and you give. You know, unless somebody finally does. I'm actually gonna just have to let you know. Dang, we knew an interesting thing. Everything I know, somebody else did. Yes, that's right! Look, it's time for a podcast and here we are back again the Survivor Know-it-alls and here's a guy that never would break his word. It's

Stephen Fishback. Stephen, how are you? I'm sad. I'm, you know, I'm a David stan. I am, you know, the tribe of David. Yeah. And I'm bummed about today. I was really enjoying David on this season. I mean, I figured David was not going to win. I think David winning would have been like, I might've had complex feelings about it, but David being in the game, I had mostly positive feelings about it.

A lot of people didn't, you know, a lot of, saw on Twitter this week, a lot of anti-David sentiment. Yeah. He certainly was talked down to some of the ladies. But in terms of like his force on the game, I liked seeing something a little bit different, like an actual alliance staying together.

We've been saying for so long, why don't people stay together? Why don't we have an alliance? And he got, you know, we only got to like the final eight. That's not that great. Or final, what are we, final nine. Look, was David my favorite ever? No, but did he make you feel something?

Yeah, that's what I wanted. Right, that wasn't like endorsing everything about him. You know, like his final words, sometimes we're heroes, sometimes we're villains, we're people. And I believe that he's a person. I believe he's a person. Yeah, and to anyone who's saying

that David is not a person, maybe you're the problem. No, I liked David a lot as a TV character. He added a lot of drama, a lot of conflict. He added some really funny moments. And ultimately he was right, as I've said before, I think he was not, we'll talk about, we'll get into like how he dealt with Joe, you know,

this episode and I probably was more bullish on that. I feel like the episode was trying to tell us a story about how like David was driving everyone crazy and maybe he was and that's the kind of thing that like doesn't necessarily translate as much to television when someone's like really like running all over the beach. But like in terms of like the merits of the case,

David was right. Eva and Joe were objectively wrong to turn on him. Shaheen was wrong to turn on him. And so like, yeah. Well, let's talk about this, because I do think that there was a little bit of David gaslighting that went on in all of this, where David was trying to say,

there's a problem here, there's something is wrong. And there was a lot of like, you're crazy, you're crazy. And then I think that that might have made him more crazy. It would happen to me. I mean, that did happen to me. It would happen to me. That did happen to me. You're like, this group is forming,

this person is doing this and everything. Oh no, we're buddies, we're buddies. And obviously like you look at it from someone like Eva's perspective and like, she's like this is this group is forming this person is doing this and everything. Oh, no, we're buddies We're buddies and obviously like you look at it from something he was perspective and like she's like I am buddies with them Like they're not my problem But like, you know Eva and Joe were extremely protected by the existence of David We're by like by this like strong six group it fracturing is terrible for them Do you think that oh go ahead? Yeah No, I and I think there's a lot to say. I mean, you know, Mary really gassed David

up in the wrong direction. We'll talk about it all. I promise. But let me just set up a little bit of what's coming up, of course, exit interview tomorrow with David. Looking forward to that one. And then we've got another great week of podcasts. Steven, check this out. We've been on such a roll. We got another good one this week. Tiffany Irvin is gonna join me on Thursday for the New School interview. And then the legend, Jerry Manthe,

will join me on Monday, I believe, for that one. Really, all the old school interviews have been so much fun. And a great one with Kelly Wentworth the other night. So looking forward to catching up with Jerry about everything Survivor 48 and of course you can hear all that and more in the we know Survivor feed we know survivor.com but you won't hear my patron Q&A when the people call in with me live at 3 p.m. Eastern that That is only for the fine folks over at robhazardwebsite.com slash patron.

All right, Steven, so many different parts of this. Where do you want to start with, with the fall of David? Well, first of all, I think we should get out of the way. Just the challenge itself, which is, it's so amazing. Well, you know, we don't really want to talk about the challenge that long, but that's why I get it out of the way. But like the challenge, it's like incredible, right?

I mean, and it's happened so frequently on Survivor that like the day David goes out is because of this like blink in a challenge, right? Like if he had just like, you know, Joe was almost done. His ball was, he was done. And David was like, I mean, he obviously had it over. I had plenty in the bank. Yeah, he was fine. And you know he there's like little hesitation he trips it's crazy how often

that is the case in this game like your whole fate in the game is determined by like one blank and if that doesn't happen probably Mary gets voted out here right that's what it looked like was gonna happen maybe Mitch but like Mary getting voted out would have been amazing for David. You know, suddenly David is no longer this as giant a threat as he was. I didn't think of that. Um, and so like, I think like if David does not get, like if he doesn't blink here, like I don't, again, I don't think David is winning, but I think he's going a little bit further than we saw. Yeah. Because, uh, Mary, I think definitely was like, I don't want to say the bad influence,

but the influence on his shoulder of telling him of, it's like in one of these movies where somebody is like, hey, you should be the star. Why is it named like you? It's Grima Wormtongue, yeah, Mary Wormtongue. Yeah. No? She's really, I don't know the reference, I'll be honest.

It's a Lord of the Rings, he's like in the ear of Theoden King, telling him all the things, the bad things. Yeah, but David's listening to her and he's like, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, I gotta do something about this. And so, yeah, without her, it might be a totally different story for him.

But yeah, this was like survivor poetry when we get the scenario like this, where here's Joe hanging on by a thread and then David with plenty of gas in the tank. A lot of arm challenges in this season. Yeah, it's the right season for the right theme. The right season for David. For the strong six.

But also like, and we got a little bit of hubris from David here, right? Like, oh, he's like nodding, like, I got this, you're out. You know, he's kind of like gesturing, oh Joe, I'm gonna take you on the reward, don't worry. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit of hubris and that probably was, as it often is, his tragic undoing, you know, because he probably just kind of like lost focus on where he was because he was just like anticipating Joe finally dropping. Yeah.

Do you think any part of this was akin to in token sheens when K Tyson, who's dominating the challenges, has one challenge, he doesn't win wherever it's like, okay, well, maybe we weren't going to vote for David tonight, but now he didn't win immunity. So like, is this our one chance to get him? Yeah. And especially with a performance like that one, where like, it really looked like he should have won. I do think there probably was that aspect of it,

of we got to get him now. Like, who knows? Like this guy very well could go on an immunity run. And I'm sure there's a little bit from Joe, right? Like there has to be some ego of, you know, this guy's not here. I'm like the, you know, the strong guy. Yeah.

We surprised that Joe did not take him on the reward. No, because Joe's choices all made sense, you know? Obviously he's taking Mitch because like Mitch hasn't eaten and I do think like the politics of who hasn't eaten loomed very large for the contestants on the beach and especially if you're a man of honor and integrity. Had you been aware that Mitch hadn't eaten? No, but like, you know, I'm sure they are.

I'm sure like, you know, I'm sure Mitch has reminded them as he did, you know? But then people talk about that relentlessly, you know, who's eaten when. Then who was the second one he picked? It was- Oh, Shaheen. It was Shaheen and Eva were the other two.

So those are his folks. I mean, is it like the best strategic move to leave all the people from the other group on the beach for four? It's all Siva and Mary who's like David's buddy. That's probably not the greatest choice, but I get it. I mean, you know.

Should David have known the writing was on the wall when he didn't get picked for the reward? I don't think so. I think that that's, you know, people overindex on that. Okay, all right. Which aspect of this do you want to start with? Because there's so many different players and looking at it from their different perspectives.

Who do you want to start with? I think the one to start with here is Joe because he's obviously the sort of like hinge vote here. You know he claims like it's Eva's choice. Maybe it's Eva. Maybe we start with Eva actually. Okay. Because it's like Joe goes with Eva. I mean there's more meat to like the Joe discussion I think but maybe I'll start with Joe and then we'll go into Eva. Yeah start with Joe because he's in this interesting position where he is a very different player than we are used to seeing on Survivor especially in the new era where that there's such a quietness to Joe, but he really in that quiet in that you know quiet demeanor there's a lot of power and

It's a little bit like and you see this in some of these big brother seasons where it's like one person is just running the house And then these other little factions keep like playing like this tattletale game and going up to, like, hey, do you know this person's doing this? Do you know this person's doing this? And then really it comes down to who does the king favor ultimately? Yeah, and Jeremy was very much like that person on Cambodia, where literally he was talking to everybody.

Everybody would go off and ask Jeremy for his opinion. And I mean, I remember Abby called him the big apple, which was, yes, famously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's funny because on a different season, I don't know if Joe gets, well, obviously, but like, he doesn't, doesn't have that role, you know, and I think David like sets up Joe having that role because Joe is sort of this like old school honor integrity. I'm going to stand by my word on a different season. Like the game, like zooms by him. I mean, Camilla made that word on a different season. Like the game like zooms by him. I mean, Camilla made that point of, you know, if there were like weirder

people here, I'd fit in better, but it's all these like big macho people. This is like, this is what I'm stuck with, you know? And I think that kind of vibe favored is like Joe and the fact that there's someone more extreme than him. You know, he's the less extreme version of that in this season. Well, the big conversation that we saw in this episode between Joe and David, and this was such a great moment where David is pleading with Joe to make the case about,

you have to see, there's stuff going on. It's Kyle, it's Shaheen, it's Camilla. You have to see it. And he says to Joe, we have to play the game right now. And he goes back to the last tribal council. And David says that Joe went back on his word. And that's it. Joe just like shuts down.

He was wounded in that moment. And David might have been done right there. And I agree with you. I think like that for Joe was so like went so deeply against his personal code. Like obviously this is the story Joe tells himself. I am someone who sticks to my word. I do not go back on my word.

He says, I'm not capable of that. I don't mean that in a bad way. We all tell ourselves stories. Yeah. But everyone tells- I can't do that. I do not go back on my word. I don't mean that in a bad way. We all tell ourselves stories. Yeah. But everyone tells- I didn't do that. I'm not capable of it. Right.

And like that is part of his identity. And so for, and I actually like, again, like I'm obviously very, like I'm probably relatively pro David to the average, you know, person who's in orbit. But I didn't think David, I think the story that will be told or the talking point around that conversation is that David botched it. I actually think he did not. But I mean, after that, saying

that was obviously bad. Maybe he should have retreated faster. You know, he's like, but I didn't think he handled it so badly. Like he was like, first of like, first of all, he's like, well, you know, can you see it from my perspective? You know, where there's this and this and this happening? And Joe's like, No, I do not go back on my word. And maybe at that point when he saw how ferocious Joe was about it, he should have been like, listen, I'm absolutely wrong.

I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to. But he did back off of it. He says to Joe afterwards, like, well, maybe I misspoke, maybe I'm wrong about that and I misspoke and I see that now. He does back away from it by the end, which is what you would advise someone to do you know, maybe I'm wrong about that and I misspoke. And you know, I see that now. Like, you know, he kind of like, you know, he does back away from it by the end, which is what you would advise someone to do in that situation.

No, but it wasn't a complete reversal. It wasn't a complete reversal. He said, you know, I still think it was my way. You know, it was, he really stepped on a landmine with that. And he may have been, and tell me if you think this was the case, you know, I've just been watching Heroes vs. Villains over on the Patreon feed.

And with Boston Robb and Coach, when Boston Robb is feeling like after Tyson goes home, that he feels like that he can get Coach to sort of like, Coach, remember you said, you gave your word. And Boston Robb tells us in confession, he's like, I know, coach, that he has to be for a man of his word. And that's good. Basically, Rob has sort of figured out that he feels like he sort of hacked the code of, OK, coach, this will be too much cognitive dissonance for coach

to not do what he told me he's going to do. Ultimately, he votes for Courtney at that tribal council. And that's sort of like his off ramp there. But do you think that was David feeling like this? Does he know this about Joe? And when by saying like, Hey, you know, I felt like you went back on your word at that. Does he feel like that that's going to be the thing where Joe's going to have the wake

up call? Like, Oh my God, you know, that's not who I am. I can't go back on that. That's a really good point. He was trying to say that as a way of kind of like pushing Joe to see his point of view and it backfired tremendously because then Joe feels like, you know, Joe can't handle a cognitive addition into that,

you know, and obviously Joe ends up going back on his word when he votes out David. But you know. I was waiting when David gets voted out. When Joe said to David, hey, I'm not capable of doing that. I was kind of looking for David after he got voted out to say, you're not capable, Joe?

I mean, he gave him a look. I felt like the look said, you're not capable, Joe. You know, I feel like that was the look. Joe just like looked right back. It was a very powerful look. But yeah, it was, and you know, someone, I was talking about this cause this scene was released early and I was talking about it on Twitter.

And someone in my mentions said, and I thought this was an astute point, that like maybe for Joe, like part of the psychology here is he knows that he is going to have to go against David. And so like, he's almost like playing it up more, you know? Like he's like, I'm like, oh, I'm really mad about this. You've really crossed the line here, you know, because he knows that at some point he's going to have to

vote out David or go against David. And so like, this is a way that he can kind of help, just like help justify that to himself. Yeah. Now does Joe know he's doing that? Is that sort of like that? I think the point is no. I think you're like, that's where you're like fooling yourself. You know, you kind of like, I mean, I don't know. I mean, like my read on it is just like,

this is like Joe's code. But I thought it was an interesting, you know, an interesting observation. I think it's so interesting that not just in this particular moment, just speaks to like the nature of these shows that we follow where that people have these really strong beliefs and that each person has their own little bugaboos that you might accidentally trip up and you have to understand what's the right way to you know position yourself with each of these people. Like it's just it's so fascinating and this conversation I thought was just such a beautiful illustration of what's great about Survivor. Yes, exactly.

Like it's like objectively, it's this like strategic game and like you all have an optimal move, not really, but like, you know, there's, but then it's people and it is real life. You know, it's real life. It's actually happening. It's part of their lives. Everything we do is real life.

So like it's, it's, you know, people's moral codes and people's like identities come so strongly into that. And you know, we see less of that these days, I think than we used to. I think it used to be such a core part of the show in a way that was really compelling television. And it's like, that's again,

like that's like another thing I like about this, you know, strong six and moral. I mean, it's like, it's not my code, but it's fun to see people operate according to a code and like, try to have a code that's different than just like, let's get out the most, you know, the tallest poppy right now. So for Joe, he's ultimately the one who greenlights this decision to take out David. Do you feel like that this was a big mistake for Joe? Unquestionably. I mean, like, again, like I still think Joe may go on to win the season.

And I think to your point, he's in that spot of everyone kind of deferring to him as the sort of central guy. And I think he's still insulated enough. You know, I think people like Kyle and Shaheen and obviously Eva are still like committed enough to him that nobody is really gonna go for him. And I think, but like, just like from this perspective of having this insulation of this group,

I think Joe is, you know, in a worst spot for David to be gone. I mean, David was explicitly saying he wanted to go to the final three with Joe. Like, you know, you want people in the game who A, are not going to lie to you, and B, want to take you to the final three. Like that's, you know, and see who you can beat.

You know, who the jury is mad at. Like David is a great person to be in the game for Joe. We should talk about, oh, go ahead. No, I was gonna say, I just wanna agree. I think this was a mistake for Joe. I think that for Joe, that he really had things set up perfectly where you had that in his group of five or six, like people were sniping at each other.

David wanted to go after Kyle or Shaheen or, you know, come up with plans to go after other people. Kyle was never looking at Joe. David was never looking at Joe David was never looking at Joe Nobody was coming for Joe or for Eva and then to go down to the end that he had basically like final threes and fours So many different ways across the board now. He ultimately cuts off a big way that he could have gone with the Mary and David scenario.

And then not to like look too much into the previews, but it seems like the people on the bottom are going to like start to have like a little bit of an uprising here coming up next week. And he's painted himself into a position where his his numbers of potentially is now him, Eva Shaheen, who's like now hanging on by a thread and he's got a hope. I think he thinks Kyle is with him, but it's not great. Yeah. Well, let's talk about Shaheen because, you know, we got this like really fun montage of Shaheen like laying the groundwork to eliminate David. I thought that was a very fun scene.

Shaheen's like, I've been doing this for days. And then you have him talking just for days of these little clips of like putting it in this bug in people's ear. Oh, I think David's paranoid. I think David's this I think David's that. And I mean, that is how you get someone voted out of survivor, right? You just sort of like, put out all these little feelers and let people come come to the conclusions themselves. That is a brilliant way to get someone voted out of survivor.

For Shaheen, it is a terrible result because he's basing this and he doesn't know this, right? He's basing this on a huge misapprehension, which is that he and Camilla have this like great secret thing. But in fact, Camilla is actively targeting him, actively trying to get himself eliminated from the game or to get him eliminated from the game. So like Shaheen goes from being at this center of this group of people

who were protecting him, right? I mean, even last vote, like he looked like he was the other, the other target potentially, and the start of this episode is him being somewhat rattled by having his name come up. To now that protection is gone. And he is probably still a really big target for all of these people who want him gone. Including Camilla, who he thinks is his ally.

I don't know necessarily, because now Kyle and Shaheen have had this working relationship together, and so maybe that Kyle was feeling kind of down on Shaheen, and that maybe that this created some new road together for them to be able to travel down. and that maybe that this created some new road together for them to be able to travel down. So I don't know necessarily what the future holds, but I kind of feel like that there's only room for Kyle

or Shaheen to succeed in these next couple episodes. Yeah, I do think, I think this is going to be bad for Shaheen. I think Shaheen is probably, you know, in the crosshairs of a lot of these people. For some reason, I mean, it's funny, like he makes this remark about like, you know, why am I like the target of like, it's like the big muscles are being targeted

and suddenly like it's my name being written down. But yeah, it's, yeah, like I think that it seems like his name keeps on coming up again and again. And like, once your name, once you're in the crosshairs, it's hard to sort of like remove yourself from that. Can I stop down for a quick edit question for you? Oh, I love an edit question. Would you say that it is probably not great for the winner prospects of Shaheen

in that we are seeing what he did in a montage as opposed to have watching it in the real time. Oh, I don't know. I think I actually think that is great. Like I feel like the more editing like effort that is around you, like that's typically what's considered like, you know, like the more editing like manipulation that is like around you as a character is typically

considered like good for your, you know, your chances. And I ask this, you are a more careful observer of this than I am. Like manipulation in an edit is typically considered like the sign of a winner's edit, as opposed to stuff coming up naturally within the scope of an episode. So for him to get a whole montage of like,

look at me pulling the strings is, you know, but I think I made the same case for Teenie last season. And I don't know how did that work? Was that right? Was that money? Well, I think that when Teenie's bag got burnt I don't know how did that work? Was that right? Was that money? I think that when Teenie's bag got burnt, you were very taken with that. Yeah, but also there was some, no,

but there were also were like some, some like montages of Teenie doing strategy. And there was like one montage in particular where Teenie came in, I think at the last minute and we saw a montage of them doing strategy, like talking to this person and this person and this person. And I was like, that was very exciting to me as like an editor reader. So like, you know, what do I know?

We haven't gotten to Eva. That was the other part of making this decision with Joe. We saw her go off to go and get a new advantage this week, Steven. Yeah. Which is like a really great scene, very fun scene. I wanna, I'm excited to talk about this. So should we talk about Eva vis-a-vis David or Eva vis-a-vis the advantage?

Let's go with the advantage then let's talk about her David decision. Yeah, so first of all, it was very fun because you never see someone actually get clocked on these nighttime excursions. And in fact, on Twitter, someone was saying, I don't know, someone was saying that like nobody ever gets clocked on these nighttime excursions. You know, and in fact, on Twitter, someone was saying, I don't know, someone was saying that like, nobody ever gets clocked on these nighttime excursions.

And then of course she does. Yeah. By Shaheen following her, making a deal out of it. That was a fun moment. She goes. Yeah, he goes and wakes up, Joe, Joe, Joe. He's like, look, it's Eva, I don't care. Exactly, she's fine, she's fine.

Very fun, I mean, anything with torches is fun. I love the transition from like the night vision footage to like the color footage. I thought that was really cool. It is a little broken. I mean, we didn't really talk about this last week because I think we were kind of like, we had our episode, we taped before we actually like kind of,

it came out that it looked like this was an advantage that was going to the challenge winner. And so like, maybe we should talk about that. Cause we never really discussed that. Let's talk about it. But like, let's figure, let's talk about the advantage itself first. So first, Eva gets like an immediate extra vote,

kind of an advantage, right? But then she can risk that for a 50% chance of a safety without power. Do you do that, Rob? Yeah, I think so. Cause I feel like the safety without power is kind of like an idol. If you played it the right way where, you know,

you feel like, okay, things are getting a little spicy here. I'm gonna basically bounce out of here. Yeah, I agree. I would definitely risk it for the 50% chance of the safety without power. Now, would you risk it for the 50% chance of the safety without power. Now, would you risk that for a one third chance of an idol? I think not. That to me seems insane.

To your point, a safety without power is basically, like functionally an idol. Like you don't get to vote, but like, you don't get voted out. Like why on earth would you like actually have like, a slightly worse idol? Would you take a 30%, 33% chance of nothing, a slightly better thing? It's terrible.

Yeah. OK, good. It should have been like a steal-up vote or something. I thought you were saying that I was making a crazy decision to not go for the idol. Oh, no. I think even the fact that it was a decision is crazy. Who's going for that? That's a terrible choice.

It should have been two thirds. Yeah, two thirds. Maybe two thirds. And then there's still like, you know, a little bit of a, but a one third chance of an idol when you have essentially like mini idol. No, bad. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well put. Okay. So she comes back with it. She says last week, I'm not, this is just for me.

I'm not telling anybody about my advantage. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And then ultimately she comes back and tells everybody. Do you think that Joe potentially said to her like, Hey, you got, you got clocked. You better tell everybody about the thing. I actually had that thought that like someone maybe kind of like just gave her a nudge and said, you got it. You got to come clean about this so that people aren't suspicious of you. Okay. Well, we don't see it in the episode. So, uh, for our intents and purposes, it didn't happen. And then we got, uh,

Eva has to make the decision about should we vote out David? And she didn't like it that David from her opinion was really stirring the pot. Um, wait, what, can I make one point about the safety advantage? Please. As she read it, this was the text by the way, I thought this was very funny. I texted you when this came out. Congratulations, you now have power in the game.

This advantage offers you safety without power. It's just perfect. It's perfect. How do you improve on that? Yeah, maybe power is safety without power. Yeah. Congratulations, you now without power. Yeah, congratulations. You now have power in this unsafe game. This advantage offers you safety without power.

Yeah. Very funny. Anyway, okay, back to the David decision. Yeah, so Eva feels like that David is really stirring the pot. Eva wants very much to be a part of this team. They're going to do something that hasn't been done before. They're gonna prove That you can play this game at different way. Yeah

How did that work out I Mean, why do we need to try to prove this like I we have we already proved you can't do this Well, they could do it. That's the thing. They could have done it could be No, because you have to lie to other people or they're gonna go or they wouldn't get there Did you make the Tobias joke? You know, someone that would like that like he's like, you know, maybe for maybe for us Maybe this time it'll work. Yeah, I mean, yeah, Kelly Wigglesworth tried to prove this Yeah in 2000 we don't need to keep trying to prove this. Has nobody proved it?

Surely someone must have, but there's been a lot of alliances that made their way. Here's the thing, that what you can do, and this may well be how Joe can win the game, you can make it look like you're doing this, but for all intents and purposes, you are not making it to the end of this game and winning without lying and deceiving.

But what about, I mean, there have been a lot, that's true, but there's certainly groups of five and six who have gotten to the end just by hanging tight with each other. I mean, that is a, that for years was like the whole strategy of Survivor. Who cares? But then what happens, are they all like lovey-dovey at the

end? No, then they're all mad that you lied to me. Those people really hate each other. They really hate each other. Like, wow, like you've proved that five people can vote together. Yeah. But like, I kind of was excited to see if they could prove that. You didn't even prove that.

Yeah. But like, it would be fun. I thought it'd be fun to see an old school alliance, like, you know, actually endure in this day and age. But there is also someone on the bottom. And fortunately in this case, it was the people on the top who flipped, which doesn't usually happen. Yeah.

So let's talk about Eva's decision. So she says like, I feel comfortable with everybody, but they don't feel comfortable with each other, which actually great, again, like you're on the top. Yeah. Yeah. So Eva trusts Joe, Joe trusts Eva, and they have to ultimately make a decision

on what to do here. Why do they make this decision? Yeah. I mean, I think Joe, we know why Joe makes the decision, right? I get the sense that Eva just doesn't like all of the paranoia and the scrambling. And she attributes that to David specifically, rather than all of the, just like the general fact of survivor at the final nine. And I do think that's often the case where when people will get voted out because like, they will become sort of the sacrificial goat

of like this person is why there's chaos on this beach. We would all be existing in harmony if it weren't for this person. You know, it's such a common narrative. Not the case. But yeah. But I think you're onto something. I think that probably from Eva's perspective

and maybe from Joe, it's like, boy, you know, David was the cause of all the disharmony yesterday because he wanted to get out Camilla. And now today he's all worked up and now Kyle and Shaheen are saying that they want to get rid of David. Like maybe if David wasn't here, not to mention he said, I went back on my word, maybe that's what we need to do. Yeah, I do think there is a lot of that

But again David was right. He correctly clocked the Kyle Camilla relationship and the Shaheen Camilla relationship You know in that point of like why can't we get votes on this person? It's like a clock tower thing, you know, like in blood on the clock tower You know when you're like, why why can't we get votes on this character? You're like, maybe that person is the demon. Well, let's bring the Kyle and Camilla angle into this. I thought that Camilla was really MIA in this episode. Yeah, she had a few very funny confessionals,

but not a lot of actual- But what's she working on? Like, what's she doing? Like, I think she's such a good player. Like, we're not seeing her. Why not? What's she up to? But the problem point is she doesn't have

the social relationships this game. And it is such a function of just bad luck, right? Like if she had been on the last season, she would be like right in her group. She'd be like swimming in that pool. But now it's like the vibe is totally other than her. And so it's like she's is totally other than her. And so it's like, she's a little bit outside of the decision makers.

And I do think those people end up having to, last season it was Sam and Genevieve who were on the outs while you kind of had like the strategists like in the mix together. And this time it's like the strong people while the strategists are kind of cast out a little bit. Okay, we really got to see a lot from Kyle's perspective in this episode that we see him

where that's the morning and the strong six is together for their morning sunrise sitting on the beach and David is still at it. They're talking about who they've got to get rid of that we got to get rid of Camilla. And so Kyle feels like his relationship with David is not so great, so he goes to work and he brings in Shaheen to try to get another person to vote out Mary here. Yeah, I thought this was very clever,

the way Kyle did it, because he made it about Shaheen, right? He made it about, oh, David's worried about your and Camilla's relationship. Like he's casting this big target on Camilla to weaken you. And then suddenly it becomes personal for Shaheen in a way that we saw. He said, this is about me. You know, that's what every survivor thinks.

This is about me. And so I thought that was very well done from Kyle. Okay, so David and Kyle continue to talk, but David is still pretty hot with Kyle. Yeah, I mean, I think that gets to sort of where David does go wrong here is just, he can't calm himself down. I mean, I love that scene at the beginning

when he's like, I'm gonna backseat drive this one. I'm not gonna, and then like, he's like, but it should be Camilla, it should be Camilla. He can't like hold himself back. And I think that's why we see him, you know, talking aggressively to a lot of people is like, he gets so passionate that he just can't restrain himself even when he knows he can. So I do think like that's where David, you know, David Bloomberg here, you know, hat tip. That's why David lost. He just like couldn't like, you know, slow play it. Yeah. You know, David is such a contrast to a couple of the different players in the game

You know where you know Joe is just like he's Quiet like it seems like I feel like that he's intense, but he's quiet That David is David is not that Kyle and Shaheen are Two players that are very much like okay We are going to work under the radar and sort of like go about things quietly to try to make things happen. Again, David, that's not who David is.

In the end, the David way of playing the game, I feel like that it is not a successful one. Yeah, you do sort of have to be willing to sort of, and he knew, you know, like in to be willing to sort of, and he knew, you know, like in that scene, he was like, I've been pushing too hard, you guys, you figure it out, but then he can't stop himself from pushing.

And then you see it later on, right? Where he like comes up, why are we still mad at each other? It's all water under the bridge. And yet he can't stop himself from pushing, pushing. Let's talk about Mary in this, I mean, you mentioned her a little bit too, because I just thought that scene at the very start was so funny when Mary is

saying like, you guys are more than shields. Like you meet shields, you deserve better from this world. You know, she really has like stepped into this role of kind of like, I mean, you know, chief worm tongue, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, that's my, that's my go-to here. Yeah. Yeah. She's really hyping up the strong six. She seems to be fully integrated into the strong six now at this point.

Does this blow back on Mary? Do you think Mary is the next one to go? No, I mean, it seems like that Mary is now maybe with Camilla next week, maybe with Mitch, maybe with Star, and all of a sudden there's all these people that are sort of like on the outside of this thing. And if Kyle or Shaheen is willing to go and flip, this could be trouble.

Yeah. I mean, Mary is really functioning very well as a chameleon. You know, the fact that she was able to say, you know, when she was first on Vula, oh yes, I'm with you, you know. Say and I have put our differences behind us. Now it's all about us together. And then he or she jumps over and becomes like BFFs

with David and it's suddenly like, they're after the four of us, they're coming to get us guys. And then hopefully we see her go jump to the next group. I mean, she's being really effective in this sort of difficult role that she's got where she doesn't necessarily have a natural alliance. Yeah, I think that she's gonna be somebody

who's very interesting to watch next week because I think she's going to really feel especially burned by Joe and Eva after this. Yeah, I agree, I agree. And she could be maybe the person putting together the alliance of people on the bottom. Yeah, I mean, that would be really fun to see. I would like to see some of the top people hoist

by their own petard for betraying David. You know, that's what they would deserve. Yeah. And I kind of think that might happen to Shaheen. Perhaps maybe with Joe winning immunity and Eva having so many advantages that maybe Shaheen is the soft target that they end up going for,

especially if Kyle ends up flipping with Camilla. Yeah, and he was also, wasn't he who starred? Did Star throw out him or did Star throw out David? Star threw out Shaheen, right? Star. On the reward, she kind of comes up and is like, what about this? Everyone's like, no, we can't do that.

Let me, let me go back and- No, I think it was, I think she, I think she threw out Shaheen because then everyone was like, no, we think that there might be an idol there. And so then she's like, okay, whatever. Yeah, so Star says, vote out Shaheen to David and Mary. And Dave's like, I can't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I feel like he's the name that everybody kind of sees as this, you know, big target figure in a way.

I'm like again like again, it's like the Jeremy thing like vote out Jeremy. You should vote out Jeremy. Don't vote me out. Vote out Jeremy. Well, I think everybody's scared to hit Joe or Eva, but they feel like okay. Well, here's Shaheen sitting right there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.'s Shaheen sitting right there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's got less protection. But I'd love to talk just about Kyle for a little bit because Kyle had a lot to do in this episode.

We see Kyle, we talked about him trying to work with Shaheen to get things going, but we saw a real attempt to bond with Joe. And I think that Kyle, while David was sort of like milk brothers with Joe, I feel like that Kyle fundamentally understands Joe more than Kyle does. More than David does. Kyle understands Joe more than David does.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that was really like, he gets that like, yeah, exactly, Like tapping into this sort of like personal, you know, here's why I'm acting the way I am. Like this is personal, you know, this goes back to my personal roots. You know, I hope it, you know, and then be really respectful. You know, I hope it isn't like, you know, bothering you basically. Um, I thought was a great way to interact with Joe too. I thought that was really a good point. Yeah, personal bond with Joe from opening up,

not to say that like Kyle is like completely calculating in this scenario, but that really seems to be the way to, you know, touch Joe's heart if you want to win him over as an ally, as opposed to what we saw David try to do with really just come in and sort of like bulldoze over like, Hey, you have to do this where that just by naturally opening up, you know, if David would have had his story about like living in the trailer for Joe, maybe at the end

of that, Joe's like, I'll follow this guy anywhere. Whatever you're right. I think that's a really good point. You're absolutely right. I mean, and so much of survivor is that. It's like knowing how to interact with the people who you're, they're not chess pieces. You know, you don't just like tell them the move. You have to kind of connect with them where they are. You know, and Ethan Zahn said that to me before I went back to Cambodia. You know, it's like, you gotta be like the brother

for the person who wants a brother, like the son for the person who misses their son, you know? That, you know, and like, I didn't do that, I failed. But like, that's really good. It's really good advice. That is good advice. And we see that Kyle ends up winning over Joe. And then after that, Joe opens up to Kyle and tells him about David. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so it was great for Kyle. I mean, I think Kyle probably, this was his episode. He was a little bit on the back foot last episode

and he was negotiating this question of, how do I navigate this big six that is controlling the game, strong six, and my own alliance with Camilla where that's where I feel like my real connection is and he does it by getting rid of David. I think he is probably in the best spot right now of anybody I would say. A couple players on the bottom Steven that I want to make sure we get a chance to talk through. Mitch caught a lot of flack last week. Why did he vote with, the vote against Chrissy?

But here he is. He's on a reward. He's voting with the majority. Yeah, I mean, you know. Here comes Mitch. Yeah, I mean, Mitch said, like, you know, my hands have been tied because, you know, I haven't had been outside of this group, but like now, and he's the one who kind of brings up let's get David right and everyone's like what

wow we didn't even think about that possibility. Yeah he brings it up on the reward and he says yeah David is the one person that I'd really like to get and so you know Mitch everybody likes him and so I think they're open to that idea especially after he doesn't win immunity. Have we given Camilla enough attention I feel like that she did not have a big episode this week but I feel like she looms large going into the next episode. Yeah, I mean she's got these wonderful relationships. You know we certainly see, well I guess, I don't know why I said that. That's not really true, right?

That was her whole, that was like even Kyle said that, you know, I've got all these social bonds and she's the strategic powerhouse. But she's a strategic powerhouse. It was's a strategic powerhouse. It was fun. I mean, she's such a great character. I love her confessionals when we get them. Yeah, and she was going to Miss David having him as a target for her roasts in the confessional.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And Star is somebody who that she's on the wrong. It's like Katora after Bruce was out. It's like, what is Katora even doing anymore? I guess you get Jake sort of as a foil after that point. All right, Star, she is on the wrong side of the vote, but doesn't that seem to be in any danger coming out of this?

I guess that she was on the swap tribe with David and Mary. So she feels close enough to go and tell them about the idea to vote out Shaheen. At the tribal council, I thought that she has an interesting moment with Camilla, where Camilla talks about how David, that he's losing jury votes, or that basically if that's how you wanna play,

you're not gonna get me as the jury vote. And Star laughs, and Jeff asks her about what's going on. And Star, just in her own way, she's able to sort of, you know, kind of damn Camilla in terms of like that she thinks it's so funny about how Camilla is such a straight shooter. Yeah, does that damning Camilla? I don't necessarily damning, but it was able to and I really, to me, like I see somebody do this and I'm like soled by it because she can kind of have a laugh that doesn't come across as mean-spirited and is able to highlight what Camilla is doing

in a way where Star, it's not just coming across as like a likable aside from Star. She's delightful. Every time she speaks, I'm like, I mean, I wish I got more Star in my episodes. Like she might be like my favorite character right now. You know, we see the least of her. I think, I mean, not like obviously

we don't see her playing the game and she's not this type, but just in terms of like how much like fun I have when I'm watching her on my screen, like I think like she might be my number one. You know, and such a wonderful, um, you know Sequence where she's pushing herself to swim, you know, I thought like just everything she said about it was beautiful Like how wonderful it'd be to be so free out there like, you know swimming so at ease

And then she you see her pushing herself to do it and I thought she was great She looks like real look really like decent at swimming. You? I mean, like she really was like doing a good job. And it was so cool to see her pushing herself and striving to grow. And her confessional about it was hilarious. You know, and like this time, you know, next time Jeff calls me, I'm going to be ready. I just thought that. Get her out there. Season 50. I would love that.

That would be I would be very happy with that. But yeah, and she was and that remark at Tribal, I thought was very funny. I wish Jeff did more of that at But yeah, and she was, and that remark at Tribal I thought was very funny. I wish Jeff did more of that at Tribal. You know, like I feel, first of all, I think Tribal's a lot better. I think Jeff has like dialed back the metaphors quite a bit where he doesn't like, not everything is like,

Survivor is like a balloon, you know, it goes up and up and up until it pops. But like, you know, wow. But I think there's less of that. But I feel like when I was on Survivor and token chains, Jeff would really get into the specifics of like, people and their relationships. And now it seems like very top level, you know, I like Shaheen says, people are making emotional connections. And Jeff's like, Okay, like someone

else talked about that. What's an emotional connection? You know, I feel like token chains era, Jeff would have been like, okay, who was making the emotional connections? Like who is bonding? How does that affect you? You know, I feel like Tocantins era Jeff would have been like, okay, who was making the emotional connections? Like who is bonding? How does that affect you? You know, really getting into the actual personal dynamics. You know, you know, star says, you know, I'm trying to figure out who can I flip to my side?

You know, I think Tocantins era Jeff says, who are you going to? Who do you think is likely to flip? That's like what's interesting to me as a viewer. And I think that like, I want, I really wish I could see more of that. And maybe he thinks he's like making it easier for the contestants, you know,

like he doesn't want to like out anybody's game, but like surely that's his job here, right? It's like push on people. And if they can avoid him, like good for them, but if they can't, you know, that's their fault. Yeah, it's a good question. And there's so many other parts of the game where that he's trying to make it harder and we got players, they have to earn everything.

They can't just be resting on their laurels. They got to fight for everything. So I can't imagine that he's trying to make tribal council easier. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's because like, if they get into something, then suddenly they have to like have footage for it in the episode and that's annoying, you know, like if like if like maybe it's like if he asks, you know, You know what footage they've shot. Well, no, I know but like, you know, it like

Why get into something that's gonna make like the edit harder, you know leading up to that point if like something suddenly Shaheen starts talking about, you know, the deep relationship between Mitch and star or like like do we have that, you know, like but I don't know like I missed that part of Just the show you know like where he really digs into who is you know wearing whose boots I wonder maybe if it's a little bit though that he kind of knows okay the story is okay David It's at the center of everything and is is Joe gonna basically keep him? What are- So we don't need to redo it.

What's going on with Star and who's talking to Star? Maybe he's just like, okay, well, that's not really what's going on right now. Yeah, I don't know. The point of Shaheen saying people are making emotional connections, who's making emotional connections? Or maybe he's asking those follow-ups and it's not making the edit.

Yeah, All right. Stephen, are you ready to dole out the most coveted award in podcasting? It's the most coveted intro theme in podcasting. All right. It's time to award the fishy called by some a broken award that rewards losers for losing not anymore, baby. Yeah. So let's talk about the Eric barger for the fishy intro. Shortened by popular demand. But like, it's still there by popular demand too.

Yes, yes. All right, let me present to you some options, okay? And for me, the favorite is Kyle this episode. Last episode, like I said, Kyle was sort of, and even at the start of this episode, we saw that Kyle was in a very tough spot. He's got his relationship with the strong six and he's also got this relationship with Camilla.

David is getting wind of that and he's trying to tell everybody, watch out for Kyle, you know, watch out for Camilla, this pair, they're gonna flip on us at some point. Instead, what Kyle does is he gets to the whole rest of his alliance to flip on David. You know, he gets, you know, he goes to Shaheen and he makes it personal for him.

He says, you know, you're being targeted because of your relationship with Camilla. You know, he builds that bond with Joe. And ultimately, you know, I do think he's one of the prime movers of why David gets voted out here because so to me, and I think Kyle probably benefits the most, I mean, other than Camilla from David getting voted out here,

where he still has those bonds with the other people in the strong six, but he also gets to keep Camilla there too, and he probably loses the least because David was kind of getting very suspicious of him. I think I've got to mention Shaheen too because I think that as a possible candidate, because we do see that sort of montage of like him kind of like laying the groundwork

for David to be voted out. And from his perspective, he has a relationship with Camilla, even from our perspective, Camilla is actively targeting him and it's probably somewhere in between, right? He probably has a relationship with Camilla that she maybe is, you know, when there was a smaller tribe, she was targeting him. And now she's well, like, it's never like one thing or the other. Um, I think he's less of a good candidate because I think that he probably hurt gets hurt the most by not having

like the strong six really, really defending him. Um's see, who else are good candidates? I mean, really those are the ones. I think it's between Kyle and Shaheen this week. And I think it really comes down to that the move to take out David was a first step, but who's willing to take out Joe or Eva next? I don't think that Shaheen is ready to do that and I think that he is there's gonna be a numbers crunch coming up where unless we're

gonna go back to the drawing board and it's like okay let's stick to the plan let's vote out Mitch next let's vote out Mary and then let's get it down to like six but I feel like that if Kyle is going to make the flip to Camilla Then who else is going to come with them? I don't know necessarily Unless you know I feel like Kyle and and Shaheen are like fighting for the same pawns on the chessboard I guess the question is who's going to get them and I feel like that Kyle has a little bit of a head start because he firmly has Camilla.

So it's gonna come down to who has Mary, who has Star, who has Mitch out of those three. I don't have a great answer for that, but I just feel like that in terms of picking up the pieces that are at the bottom, I think Kyle has a little bit of a lead over Shaheen. And I actually think that he's even in a better spot than you're saying, because I think that,

I don't see it as being like one, this side or this side. Is he like with this group or that group? I feel like the way survivor votes work, everyone comes together and they target someone. And I don't think, I think Kyle has enough protection, whereas that kind of onion gets sort of like eaten away. He's not going to be the one anybody's voting for, right? No, but like Mitch isn't coming for

Kyle next, you know, and if he is, then you've got, you know, now it's Camilla's turn to protect Kyle in the same way that Kyle has been protecting Camilla. Whereas I don't think and you know, but Kyle also is protected by Joe and Eva. So I think that, you know, Kyle kind of has protection from the votes coming from either side. Whereas I think Shaheen probably only has protection now from Joe and Eva. And you know, even that, like how strong is that group anymore now that like the chief cheerleader has been voted out? Where if Camilla next week can do her work and get to, you know, Mitch and star and also Mary now Mary was very anti Camilla during the David phase of the game, but we'll see

if Mary can flip things around. But if Camilla could sort of round those people up and like, Hey guys, I think we can get Kyle also like what we can get Kyle also. Like what, you can get Kyle? I think that there's a possibility to get five people together there. I'm not sure that Shaheen can put that together because at best, Camilla I don't think is gonna go along,

unless that Shaheen wants to vote out Joe or Eva, he's not gonna be able to get that group together to vote out Kyle. Yeah, yeah. And honestly, probably Kyle and Camilla now have the most power in the game, the most room to maneuver of anybody, because they do still have that Siva bond with Mitch.

They have the strong bond with Joe, Shaheen, and Camilla's got the bond with Shaheen too and Eva. And you know, we've seen, who was, yeah. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's pretty much it. I don't know where Mary falls in. I would say they have the best position in the game. I still think that Joe and Eva still have the most power because now-

Well, that's a good, that's a good distinction. Yeah. With David out of the picture, you know, if Joe wins immunity at any point, it's like basically Eva has an idol and safety without power. If Joe is immune, then basically you can't touch that duo. And so if anytime Joe,

and also Eva could potentially protect both of them if she ever wanted to. So it's gonna be very hard to take the shot at those two. Yeah, that's a really good point. But so ultimately, I think Fishy for Kyle, this was a great episode for him. He did great strategic work, he did great interpersonal work,

he saved his best ally, he got out the person who was coming for his best ally while also getting his other allies to agree with. I mean, that's really hard. He got, he got, he took out someone who is a part of this core alliance while getting basically the rest of, no, in fact the entire rest of the alliance to, well except Mary, basically the rest of the alliance to agree to it. Okay. All right, Steve, anything else on your mind from episode Niner? Well,

just to say, you know, another, the great conversation at ChatBCC continues, you know, where it's, it's very fun over there, especially during the episodes. I would highly recommend someone, um, you know, you log in, it's, it's super fun. A really great, um, you know, community is, is building there and come join us. Robin's website at com slash VIP chat. If you want to, uh, join us there over on chat BCC. Of course I mentioned earlier that we are going to be live with the patrons on 3 p.m. coming up on Friday so be on the lookout for

that we have a brand new perk for our patrons there as well you can listen to all of my US survivor deep dive interviews as a new perk over on patreon is a playlist about 80 some odd post-game interviews including the two-parter I did with Stephen Fishback after Survivor Cambodia. Wow, sounds good. Speaking of Survivor Cambodia, then check out Kelly Wentworth who joined me on Monday night

had some fun conversations with Kelly. Have you seen any of the videos that Kelly does where she impersonates Jeff? Of course, of course. I love those videos. Yeah. Fun stuff there with Kelly Wentworth. I didn't know she was such a goof. I mean, I knew she was like, you know, creative and clever and funny, but she's such a goof. I love it. Yeah. I had no idea. She makes a lot of great content. So check out what Kelly is doing and check out my conversation with her. Over on the Patreon feed, we did a feed drop this week talking about Parvati playing not one,

but two idols this past week. As Steven somehow, sadly 15 years ago, JT got voted out of Survivor Heroes Versus Villains. Wow, sad day for America. Was it the best move ever in Survivor history? Josh and I will discuss over on the Patreon feed, but you can see it for free preview in the RHAP main feed. Also over on Robin and Keeva podcast,

Robin and Keeva raided your fridge. People called in live, we raided refrigerators live on the show. Fun episode of Renap. And then check out the Battle Camp. I believe Chappelle and Kirsten McInnis are talking about the new Netflix original check out Battle Camp. I believe Chappelle and Kirsten McInnis are talking about the new Netflix original series, Battle Camp.

You have any knowledge of that, Steven? No, tell me about Battle Camp. I have no idea what it is. It looks like it's like Netflix field day to me. Yeah, everyone looks very happy in the promo. They're all smiling. Yeah, so they're doing some, looks like they're having fun.

They've got some kind of a camp, so check that out over on Netflix. All right, Steven, anything else for you? Is chat BCC? No, stevenfishback.com, twitter.com, x.com Steven Fishback. All right, there you go. That's where I am. And then Thursday, big day,

I will have David on the exit interview and Tiffany Nicole Irvin and plus Club Kondo coming up and then my interview with gerrymanthi that's all here in the podcast feed make sure you subscribe I love to read your comments on Thursday about what you had to say about the know-it-alls take care everybody have a good one bye