RHAP: We Know Survivor - Know-It-Alls: Survivor 50 Finale

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Know-It-Alls: Survivor 50 Finale Survivor 50 Know-It-Alls is back as Rob Cesternino and Stephen Fishbach reunite one week after the epic finale to break down the highs, lows, and turning points of this milestone season. The pair dive deep into Survivor 50’s most dramatic moments – from Aubry’s nuanced path to victory, to Jonathan’s emotional post-game reactions and the memorable chaos unleashed by the much-discussed boomerang idol. Stephen reflects on the season’s unique energy and what made this finale feel like a true event, while Rob unpacks the realness behind Aubry’s gameplay that ultimately won over the jury. The discussion is full of sharp insights and lively debate as Rob and Stephen debate the shifting Survivor meta, dissect the subtle dynamics that shaped the endgame, and recount the highs and heartbreaks of some of Survivor’s most beloved returnees. From Suri’s effortless mastery to the generational torch-passing between players like Colby and the new wave of castaways, the conversation explores how aging, adaptation, and authenticity colored the narrative. Rob and Stephen revisit how fan-favorite moments, like Mr. Beast’s coin flip and the live reunion mishap, added to the spectacle, and consider the future of open era Survivor with its push for bigger swings and unpredictable storytelling. Key topics include: – The “classic new era” qualities behind Aubry’s win and her evolution as a player – Jonathan’s jury speech, his struggle with the outcome, and strategies for “big targets” at Final Tribal Council – Whether returning player legacies should influence jury votes – The impact of twists like the blood moon and boomerang idol on player fates – Rob and Stephen’s hopes (and skepticism) for the open era and Survivor’s future reunions As Survivor 50 closes a wild chapter, Rob and Stephen probe if the new momentum can carry into future seasons—and which strategies might emerge in the open era. Will old-school gameplay ever rule again, or is Survivor destined for chaos and big swings? Don’t miss this week’s deep dive into Survivor 50’s finale fireworks and what’s next for the world’s greatest game! Chapters: 0:00 Survivor 50 Finale Breakdown Begins 1:00 Processing Survivor 50’s Enthusiasm 5:15 Survivor 49’s Low Point, 50’s High 8:20 Aging and Time in Survivor 50 10:13 Aubry’s Journey and Redemption Win 12:13 How Aubry Played a Winning Game 17:35 Authenticity and Relationships Matter 23:38 Jonathan’s Final Tribal Heartbreak 25:33 Why Jonathan Lost Survivor 50 29:12 Jury Votes, Perception, and Strategy 34:44 Rizo vs. Jonathan Hypothetical Showdown 41:38 Survivor Reunion Shows: Conflict vs. Closure 51:24 Survivor 50’s Fun vs. Survivor 40 55:44 Aubry’s Win Like an Oscar Award 01:03:50 Most Influential Survivor 50 Twists 01:06:13 Open Era Strategy Expectations To order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com To order Stephen’s novel Escape!, visit stephenfishbach.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

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They didn't really win the game At all Survivor no at old To Stephen Fishback about Survivor Welcome back Yeah, let's just keep doing this every Wednesday We'll still, we were kind of like, you know,

We'll just talk about the finale for Survivor Every Wednesday from now on Keep it rolling. And yeah, here we go. And so we are back. It's one week after Survivor 50. And now that things are in the rearview mirror, we have been able to process a little bit. And this is the first time.

Stephen and I are able to get back together on the know-it-alls to talk about it. Stephen, how are you? I'm great. I'm so sad to have missed all of the enthusiasm and excitement and discourse around the finale. There was so much to say, so much to talk about. And now it's been talked to death. Yeah. We have nothing to say. But we don't know what you had to say about everything.

And so conventional, I feel like it's conventional. All right. Well, we can talk about that and talk about the season as a whole. I also have some questions pulled. I have a mailbag coming up with Brandon Donnell. And I said, you know what, Brandon, why don't we take some of the more strategic, more of the edit questions? The stuff that's going to be really in Stephen's wheelhouse. Let's, let's take some of those questions. So we're going to take some of your questions as well here in this podcast as we talk it through with Stephen. And how is your memorial? real day. It was lovely. I was at, I had like nested vacations, Rob. So I had gone, I was with my whole family on vacation. We went to South Carolina with my, my, my kids and my parents and my brother and his wife and his kid. And within that vacation, I left that vacation. And I left my wife with my children and my family. And I flew to my 25th college reunion. And it was lovely. Oh, really beautiful. Yeah. It was a lovely experience. So I had like, and then I flew back. And that was sort of, why I was, I was not able to podcast.

I was like, shirking one vacation for another vacation. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, that's, uh, look at you. Hobnobbing with, uh, all sorts of people. And in the meantime, I was out in L.A. I went to the live show, I'm sure as everybody knows.

And then, uh, been back here and sort of like, uh, recuperating a little bit from a busy stretch. But of course, ready to talk much more about this. We, so this week already did club condo with Chappelle. today. We've got Stephen today. Thursday, I will be doing that mailbag that we've been talking about, collecting your questions from the season finale and season in review and looking ahead into the open era. And then this Friday, we're going to do the return of the wand off. Still about 36 hours to get your wandoffs in for season 50. And Josh Wiggler is standing by for the return of a season 50

wand off. But Stephen, I guess let me start with you in terms of, you know, you have been talking quite a bit. Sometimes you get on the X.com and you really get into the discourse. You got a lot of takes on X.com. And you had been talking about the Aubrey win, which, uh, that you felt like was maybe predestined for some time. Yeah. I mean, you know, and of course then there's this other discourse, too, around that same thing, which was like the, the Kalshi and the betting that. that happened around it. Yeah. And we can talk about that too?

Yeah. Can I before, well, I want to talk about it. Well, I would ask you. Whatever's on top of mind for you. Don't feel beholdens of the question. I have a question because I do want to talk about this stuff. I think that's like, that's really interesting. But like this really felt like the high point of Survivor fandom.

I mean, like at least as I have experienced that, you, you played, you know, with All Stars and Amazon so long ago. So, so, so, so, so long ago. And, but no, but you might have been in, in college. Yeah. Um, I, I do think there was more a, you know, there was probably more fervor around it. But like the, the enthusiasm and the media and the press, I mean, around survivor generally, around Rob Sester Nino specifically. Just like, and around like all of this, you know, brew ha ha, you know, with your book coming out at the same time, you're in New York with like, you know, this, this audience of fortune.

1,400 people, you're at the survivor finale. Like, what, like, did this feel like the high point? And, like, how are you feeling? You know, I'm sure there's just, like, a craziness that comes from being, like, immersed in it all. But then it's over. Like, do you think, like, and on to the next triumph? Or do you think, like, this is going to be it?

Maybe, like, things like 51 is not going to have the same, you know, New York Times coverage. Yeah. So when I've talked about the season, I feel like that the actual season that happened, You know, I think that for the most part was fine. We had some fun. There were some big swings and some big moments, certainly, that we will remember. But I think the thing that I've taken away the most about Survivor 50 was sort of the energy and the excitement that there was. And really, I really felt like that Survivor 49.

You know, it was really like a tale of two seasons. Survivor 49, I felt like, was the absolute nadir of Survivor enthusiasm, where that it was, with all due respect to the people in Survivor 49, there was no excitement whatsoever in the fall of 2025 for Survivor. And so to have it then be all this excitement, I do hope that we will move it forward. I don't know if we will. in terms of like this last stretch that we had with the podcast and everything, like I really did say like, hey, well, this is really great, but this is not the new normal. You know, there's a lot going on here that I don't think that we're going to be drawing

1,500 people in Survivor 51. People will still be excited. They'll turn out. But that's why I've been saying all along that, hey, make sure in the fall you give people a reason to tune in. Don't take this for granted that you're going to automatically continue. And I do hope that, you know, and maybe this is just my psychology. I try to take nothing for granted.

I try to say, you know, hey. You're very good. Like, people will leave. No one will, no one will just stay. You got to keep, keep grinding. They're going to leave. Yeah. Well, I mean, I certainly have seen that from you, just that sort of like optimism and

positivity and real humility with all this stuff. But there's also a world where, you know, there is kind of, like, Like, you know, you've gotten a lot more attention, right? Survivor generally has gotten a lot more attention. Like, maybe it brings in new people. And, you know, the community does grow. And, like, the impact that this sort of, like, type of engagement with Survivor, but also other shows, like, you know, grows as well.

Perhaps. I think it remains to be seen. I think that a lot of people came back for Survivor 50. I don't know necessarily if what they're doing in season 51 gives those people who came back to Survivor after maybe being gone for five years, 10 years. Maybe they said, I had such a good time. I'm going to, hey, let's keep watching Survivor into Survivor 51. You knock on wood and you hope that that happens, but I also think you need to give people a reason to have that happen.

We don't know what they're going to do for Survivor 52. Perhaps, you know, keeping some returning players in the mix could be a way to do that. And I know that they tend to not want to go in that direction. But Jeff has also teased that you'll see returning players sooner than later. Well, they asked the fans what they wanted, and what the fans wanted was the medallion of power. Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, we can talk more about the open era. Open era. But I want to say, I just like, I loved this season. I think this is one of my favorite seasons of all time. And I do think some of that was the general enthusiasm around the season. I think that's sort of like the infectiousness and the excitement that we all had, you know, or certainly that I had week to week, seeing what would happen and the great play. But I felt, and I've treated about this in other places, that like, This season had something I don't feel I've ever seen on a reality show before,

which was this sense of like scope and time. You know, you have Colby who when we first saw him was this, you know, young buck, strong guy, you know, hero. And here he's in his 50s and his knee hurts and he's got to lean in closer so that you can, you know, whisper into you so you can talk into the good ear. And, you know, and then he's paired with this like young kid who's like on his way up. And then you've got this sort of, you know, decades-long feud between coach and Ozzy that plays out. And you have Ozzy, you know, this guy who again and again is like, I'm going to change how I play.

I am Oscar now. I'm not Ozzy. And he goes out in the exact same way that he went out, you know, 20 years ago. And then you have Aubrey who's saying, I've played this way before. It didn't work for me. I am going to change. And I just thought it was such like a profound meditation in some ways on aging. and the way that your perspective changes and evolves,

and the way that you try to change in response, and the degrees to which that's even possible, you know, this desire as a human to look at your past flaws and look at your past mistakes and evolve from them, and the different abilities that people have to do that. I mean, it was really lovely. And then, of course, also there was, you know,

Zach Brown and Mr. Beast. So, you know, we had it all. Well, I wanted to speak more about the first thing. And I'm wondering, you know, because I think that what you've said was really profound and beautiful, that I feel like that the part about their players coming back with open wounds, I think that that was on the page and I think that that was kind of baked in. Do you feel like that that second part of it of like the players dealing with closing the loop end of time and of the passage of time that do you feel like is that? sort of, was that baked into this, or do you feel like that that's sort of just analysis that you've put onto this? I think if they had put it too much into it itself, I think it would have killed it, right? Like, you know, Jeff, like, what is it, Colby to be a man in an aging

body? You know, like he's had a loved one's visit. Like, there are people who go through time and they get older. I think it was inherent in the very casting of it. You know, literally you see, be and he's older and he's not moving as well and he's like embracing joy you know and i think the fact that it was not so heavy hand like that was it was like the subtext right the text was like these advantages and these crazy things that are happening but like the background was we have all these characters who are in their 40s and they played 30 years ago they played 20 years ago um i saw it happening like regardless of like whether or not it was in the confessionals but it was also in confessionals right like certainly the Aussie oscar thing was very much in confessionals.

And Aubrey too, right, was like, so much of her story was like, can I change how I play? Like, you know, Surrey, I felt, I mean, again, like this was not like, she didn't talk about it as a theme, but, you know, so much of Surrey's mastery, I mean, she was always amazing, right? In her very first season, she was amazing. And then certainly in her second season, she did one of the greatest, you know, moves in survivor history.

But now she's just so effortlessly amazing. And I think that's a question of experience, you know? So I do think it's like, it's there. It's happening. I almost am happy that they didn't like lean too heavily into it because I think that's where it's sort of like kills how organic and like true it feels. All right. Let's talk about Opry and her win here in season 50.

I've talked about this a lot of that I feel like that the win in season 50 was really a win that was very representative of the era of Survivor, which we may be coming out of of the new era. I thought this was sort of like a classic new era win that Aubrey has. I love the story for Aubrey in terms of like the redemption story for Aubrey of this thing that she's been chasing personally for 10 years that she ultimately lands on. What was your opinion one week later on the Aubrey win? Yeah, I really came around on Aubrey. And I think something that I was really like sort of like bristling at, you know, throughout the season, sort of through the last few episodes, was the sense that I was being fed at a tail. know, that we were getting these like really heavy-handed Aubrey confessionals that were like,

in my mind, like, you know, very deliberately kind of trying to craft and edit and justify Aubrey's win to people who are, you know, watching sort of casually rather than us getting to see Aubrey. But I actually like upon reflection and certainly after her wonderful tribal council, or final tribal performance, I really felt like we did see that this winning game that Aubrey played really was there. And so much of it was the little bonds she built. You know, the fact that we have a lot of scenes of Aubrey like dancing with coach or like, you know, whispering to Jonathan like, hey, let's get rid of Devons or like, oh, we can't have Devons like going looking for the idol? Can you go do that? You know, we have Aubrey building relationships

with everybody in a way that you'd think everybody does. You think every single contestant has to have a relationship with everybody. There's 10 of them on a beach, you know, like what are you doing? Like talk to everyone. Not everybody does. does it. And we saw Aubrey being very deliberate about it and very tactical in how she used those relationships. I mean, she really highlighted that at tribal council that because she had relationships with everybody, she was able to kind of move the target and push people's attention where she wanted it to go at key points. And I think that really bears out, you know, the fact that she was kind of whispering in everybody's ear that she saw that she was being perceived as in the middle with

Devin's and Christian, et cetera. And she really responded to that. I mean, a tactically different choice, to like lean into the other groups and kind of like push the target onto the middle, you know, and then sort of like kind of like tack backwards when she had to. And so I, you know, I think your comparison to Aubrey with Marianne really was sort of borne out by the way this ended,

you know, certainly like making the big move at the final six. Even her sort of final tribal council, I felt like kind of her getting credit for the Aussie vote was sort of equivalent to like Marianne, like having the secret idol. Like, you know, she got this like. Yeah. You have to have a reveal at the final travel.

There was a reveal, right. I mean, just like, you know, D had her reveal with Austin. I mean, it does. It was a big moment in that respect. So it did feel like a very new era win. And I think, you know, to her credit, you know, right? Like the people who were out there, like, pulling the big flashy moves, then got targeted. And she recognized she had to, um, Lilo.

And of course, like, you know, I thought her, her, you know, mentioning all of her past winners, you know, Michelle made the, you know, kind of peeked right at the right moment, right at the end. Chris Underwood, nobody's accusing Chris of making moves all season long, you know? Like that guy certainly peaked at the end because he wasn't even there until the end. So it really did. I mean, other than Sarah,

I mean, Sarah really had a kind of strong game throughout. But, you know, she, I really thought she played a great game and certainly one deserving of the win. I thought Jonathan played a good game too. I know I'm not supposed to say that. Let me just respond to what you're saying about Aubrey and we could talk about Jonathan. But I think that one of the underrated things about Aubrey

is I think that there was a realness to Aubrey and maybe that's the thing she takes the most away from Michelle, rather than I'm going to wait to the end and I'm going to make my real moves. I think that Michelle always, if you ever interact with Michelle, there's an authenticity around Michelle that Michelle is not putting anything on. Michelle's not faking anything.

And I do wonder if that the earliest versions of Aubrey that we saw was an Aubrey that was trying to be everything to everybody, you know, and it's certainly something that I know I've struggled with in my life of, okay, I'm going to give you exactly what you need, and that's how the ideal way to play Survivor. But Aubrey comes back here in this season and you see it play out with Genevieve of like, I'm not going to fake it. Like, I'm not feeling this. And it's like, okay, I'm put off by this. But I also think that at the same time that Aubrey is seen as a very authentic. person. And I think that she has these moments with people where people look at her as like,

okay, wow, she's so real for that. She is somebody who I really can, she's not, she's not faking it with me. And so she ends up having some of these relationships that we don't see quite as clear in the show, maybe until the last minute, but she has these great relationships with Surrey, with Rick, with Tiffany, with Joe, with Rizzo, I think even with Jonathan. And she does, does a really good job of making people feel like that she's not a phony baloney. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. I mean, she really, and you're probably right that her slow start helped her. You know, I mean, of course, in Game Changers, not, I'm sorry, not Game Changers. Edge of Extinction, she kind of had the exact opposite.

Yeah. Experience where, like, there was that whole montage of her, you know, being a phony baloney with everybody, and then she's, you know, shortly thereafter. Can I bring in a question from the listeners? Because I think that this is very much on that. This is from Seamus 112. how much of Aubrey's success came from lowering her threat level due to her less than perfect run in the edge of extinction is the new meta for returning players to fall on your face one season and then come back and win? That certainly worked for Tony, right? I mean, there's something to that.

Like, I think if Aubrey came back like pre-game changers, like as this person who had just been to the final five, you know, you know, multiple seasons. And if that was like, like, then she's like this like super strategic threat. But I do think the fact that she went out so early in Edge of Extinction was probably really mitigated that threat for her. I mean, again, like, same thing with Tony, right? Like, he fell on his face as this super threat in Game Changers. And then when he comes back at Wooners at War, like, he's able to run the table. Yeah.

I think also the thing that's in common between, you know, Tony in Game Changers and Aubrey, ironically, is there for that. And then Aubrey, after the Edge of Extinction, I think even more so than how. having a bad run was also, you know, that, but also the passage of time. I think that between game changers and, uh, I guess it's the same amount of time for Tony, but maybe the legend of Kagiangian was so much on people, over people's minds, um, where it had been now six years since Kagi on and that people were less worried about Tony after all that. And then Aubrey has really, uh, you know, been away from Survivor, really from since, uh, when the

Edge of Extinction happened, which is what, like seven or eight years ago. So that there really was really no mention of Aubrey, really until Q started talking about her in Survivor 46. And I do think that that's a little bit of a butterfly effect of like Q's on the season. And we know that Q votes out Mariah because of that she reminds him of Aubrey. And that's her favorite player. And now Q's on the season. And I have to think that that was on the mind of the producers when it's like, oh, who else

could we bring in? Like, oh, what about Aubrey? Like that's a selling point in her favor You kind of like brought back Aubrey the fact that she was this or brought her back into the consciousness. We know she was on the bubble and I asked her about this. So like Aubrey were you an alternate? She said she told me

no she was not an alternate. She was cut from the cast and then re-added back into the cast. So she might have been maybe you know like if not the 24th person like in that final conversation of people that they were deciding to

I do think that okay well how's Q going to react to Aubrey in this. I mean, they put them on the same starting tribe also. You know, so you think that that was probably also a factor. So, you know, I think it's, give Aubrey all of the credit for what she did in the actual season. But I do think that there were also some factors that played in her favor to her ultimately getting into the cast of Survivor 50. Listen, Survivor's all about luck and like the biggest piece of luck is getting cast and then who you're cast with. I mean, look, I think like, I think like, especially post-merge, I think Aubrey played the game she needed to do, right?

Like, I think she played, she was very deliberate in the game she played. And I think that's all you can ask of someone, right? Like is to like, are you playing a winning game? Yeah. And not like, do I like what a winning game means today? Like, that's sort of like an unfair standard. But like, did Aubrey, like, very self-consciously play the game to, like, a winning game? Like, absolutely.

Yeah. I so wish that you could be, like, a spectator. to be like a fly on the wall or like one of the producers standing by where when this is happening on the beaches of Fiji and you're like a field producer are you watching this going on?

Aubrey's getting hot at the right time. Aubrey's rising. Like boy, they're not paying attention to Aubrey and I just I so wonder if it's something that you can see when it's happening or is it just something that you could

only really put together when you're watching on television. Well, especially because, like, she's a solo operator. So it's like, it's not like you see some alliance and they're like, you know, it's not like like, you know, with me and J.T. they're like, oh, look, they're over there doing their thing. You know, like, like, we were doing a thing. We were two people doing a thing together. With her, she's just like, she kind of like really did it all by herself. And so, yeah, like, can you tell that she's getting hot or, I mean, you know, apparently all they do. I mean, not all they do. But like, you know, one of their big sources of conversation is just like what's going on with contestants. Who's, who's doing what? So I'm

sure, like with this obsessive focus, they, maybe I, you know, identified it early. Yeah, Stephen, watching Aubrey, she ends up being, she's a losing finalist in her first time out. She comes back. She has less than ideal experiences. Then, after a long layoff, she comes back and ultimately wins the game. Has this caused you to reconsider coming back to Survivor for a future season that you could be the new Aubrey?

No, absolutely not. These joints, these old joints can't handle that. No. Listen, I'll go if it's with you, Rob, or with JT. Like, you or JT, if there's like a pair of season, you know, then I would go. Fine, let's go. Yeah, I would do anything. But they're not going to cast us together. They would never do that.

Well, the problem is to break us up. That's the problem. That's why we have to win out, you know. We've got to get back together. You know, the other contestants, we can't have the, you know, can't have those two. Do you think we'll be on the same tribe or do you think that? No, for sure. For sure. We're bringing the same energy.

But then on the other hand, there's a lot to that. You know, like, put those two in the tribe. You know, like they can comment on what's going on around them. Yeah. Okay. It's like, you would always ask me like, who is the fishy? They're not always on the same page. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair.

With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. You brought up Jonathan. I'd love to get your take on Jonathan, who, you know, obviously we saw that he was distraught after the finale. If you listen to any of his exit press,

he was still processing everything that happened. Now, you've been in this experience of you, you know, came up short in a final tribal council. I think you had a better sense of, it's unclear to me if Jonathan knew he was going to lose or not. I think even if you know, you know, you still kind of like hope, right? Yeah. So maybe he was hoping. I do think that the bigger thing was the initial night.

I do think that the crowd was very pro Tiffany, especially at the final five. Right. Look, I have to say, I saw a lot of criticism for Jonathan and his like angry takes and, like, like how he's like, you know, people can say whatever they want on the internet. I kind of feel like as a reality TV contestant, the price you pay for getting cast is bringing emotional authenticity to the experience. Like your job out there, the price is to be honest about what you're experiencing and feeling. And I love that Jonathan was honest.

And he's like mad and bitter and angry and blaming everyone. Like how much like more truthful and real is that from him than for him to be like, Oh, Aubrey did a great job. I came up short. Like, I'll get him next time. You know, like, who wants to see that, like, polite BS that, like, anybody, I could, I could script those answers for Jonathan now. You know, I want, like, Jonathan's angry, emotional truth.

Like, that I feel like is him being a good reality TV contestant. I mean, obviously, like, I wouldn't do that myself. Right. Like, I would be like, oh, he played a great game. Bravo. He deserves it. But as a viewer and as, like, a reader and a listener of this media, that's, that's, that's what I want to hear. Yeah. I think that Jonathan really has come from more of a place of like,

I don't understand this more so than a place of like he hasn't called people out. You know, he's he's not gone to like a Russell place with all of this of like, you know, talking about this is a bad person or anything like that. Like I think he really is struggling with, I don't understand why I didn't win. I did everything that I could have. What else did you want from me? Right. And in some ways,

I think that was maybe the flaw in his game, was it was like, this is the thing I am going to do to win, right? Like, he is playing this very meticulous game. Here's my checklist. Right, exactly. And then there was not, and again, like, I thought he did a very good job.

Like, I thought he, throughout the season, no saying that he played a very, like, what I thought was like a classic kind of old school game of Survivor, like getting the numbers, building a consensus and, you know, targeting the person with a vote. It seems like get a lot of alliances, you know, that weren't even featured, like his one with Joe and Rizzo, which apparently was this like secret alliance.

But, you know, yeah, it maybe felt a little mechanical to people, right? Like at the end. Yeah. And it's almost like you want to kind of award that like underdog with a surprise maneuver versus like this person who's played this dominant strategic game throughout. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, could be, you know, is it a bug or a feature of the new era?

in terms of that's kind of what people are looking for at the end. I think that Jonathan came in with a mentality of like, well, I beat you so you have to vote for me. And the jury is like, well, I'll do what I want. I don't have to do anything. Right. I think that's, I mean, it was almost like a Mike. I mean, like, I'm sure this comparison has been made many, many times. But like the Mike Marianne thing where like it was like so much the more dominant figure.

Like, yeah, he almost didn't like fight for it as hard. He's like, well, obviously I've won this thing. Yeah. I think that it was also, and I'd have to go back and rewatch the final travel counsel, but I think that Mike was also got a little bit hung up on the coach type thing where he was talking about, like, okay, I played very honorably and with integrity. And people are like, hold on, you lied to me, you lied to me. And Jonathan didn't necessarily do that.

But I think he was trying to say, but no, but I got you out. And I made you get mad. And I did like all. And he was really pointing out to here's the things that I did. But it wasn't necessarily the type of things, you know, the, you know, you tracked more flies with honey type approach that, you know, Aubrey did of like, hey, I, and she had such a great story. And you knew she was going to be great.

Aubrey is like, she didn't do it as much in this season. But Aubrey at one point was like the queen of metaphors. Yeah. That really, especially in the 30s in the era in which she played, it really was starting to be like the metaphor era of Survivor. And, you know, Aubrey, you know, famously talked about. about like this is the Oregon Trail. You know, she had, you know, so many of them

over the course of her career. She was going to always be able to really tell a great story at the final tribal council. Yeah. And look, I mean, the D thing, I saw, you know, we all, you know, Jonathan criticizing D for voting for Aubrey, even though they never played a day together. Like, literally in Jonathan's final tribal council speech,

he talked about emotionally manipulating her to get upset. You know? I mean, like, look, what is good strategy? like what is good tactics. We all say that the Eric Reichenbach move is one of the best moves ever in Survivor. And that was emotional manipulation. So like I think that's fair game in the game. But you can't then expect that person to come back and vote for you.

Like that's a negative, like, that's a negative vote against you. Well, I wonder if there's a couple of things here because that Jonathan, I do believe, was operating under the like Todd Herzog, hey, you were so good, that's why I had to get you out philosophy. And I wonder if the meta has shifted at all, where I think that, you know, we see Cochran also be working under that same where he kind of turns Malcolm around. And I do wonder if that at some point, and I don't know if when exactly we could pinpoint the shift happens, is that not the ideal way to win a final tribal council?

Oh, that's interesting. You were so good. I had to get, I had to get you out as opposed to really getting the jurors to see themselves in you, that your, your victory is their victory. But how do you, how would Jonathan have done that? Like, what would that mean for Jonathan? I, so that's, uh, that's his problem. That's his problem.

You know, he asked me when we did the, the exit interview. He's like, you know, Mr. Rob, what do I do? How do I do this? And I do think that one of the things that I said to him was, like, you know, I think it's very hard for you as somebody who is big that I think that part of the ethos of the show is that the underdog is who the jurors in the audience root for. And I think it's very hard for you to ever be seen as the underdog. I do think that that's a unique problem for, and not to say that Jonathan did a great job in the final trouble counsel, he obviously didn't.

And I think that the area in which he needs to work on the most is the social game. But I think it is a unique challenge for him to win in a final tribal council. Do you think, you know, we've seen Jonathan saying like every day for the past four years, I have been training for this, you know, thinking about this, trying to improve. Do you think the next time he comes out, he'll have lost 60 pounds and be wearing glasses and just be like really like train under a Cochran? Yeah, I think that he really needs to spend time with some of the people that are the real like social player like spend some time with a Michelle spend some time with a Gabler like a Cody you know

these people who are sort of just like effortlessly charismatic where the the people that who are around them just really enjoy their company and I think that that would probably be the first like I think he's kind like he can be silly I think sometimes but I think that he's generally like a serious guy he's serious and even when he like and there is like I mean you know there's is that sense of like like you know yeah he's just too serious i don't really have a better way to say it than that yeah just always seems so earnest and it like you know there's like yeah even to rick devins where rick is having fun uh and his experience and of course it rubs joe the wrong way during the season but rick is you know having fun 99% of the time while he's playing survivor and i don't know

for jonathan if he's always having fun when he's out there you want to give it to that person who like seems joyful or emotional maybe i mean honestly like maybe it's didn't even you even if it's not like fun, like, just to like bring more of his emotional self forward. You know, Aubrey gave like a very teary speech. You know, I don't know if we got, did Jonathan give some tears? You know, you got to pay the salt tax. Not until after the votes were read. I think that he did get emotional at that point.

But I feel like if he showed more of the emotional side of himself and more vulnerability, then like that would go a long way to puncturing this sort of like, I am, you know, six foot 12, seven feet tall. And weigh 600 pounds and like, you know. Yeah, that's a good way. point of I wonder if there's a flip for him and not to make it so that it's so calculated, but, you know, I'm so big. I'm so strong, but like, like he said with me, do you think I like being the big guy? Like, and I wonder if that maybe letting people, you know, see the vulnerable side of him at all could be the type of thing. Maybe it's not at the final travel council. Like,

maybe it's during the game. He lets people in a little bit more. It's just, I think it's, he He wasn't that far away from a win. Like if Joe wins some motion and, you know, we get to a final three with Rizzo and Joe and Jonathan. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, I've said it's a Mr. Beast coin flip. And I've actually like, I said I thought Rizzo had it. But I do wonder if that, you know, some of the things that we hear, you say no. Oh, sorry. No, I'm, I'm, finish your thought.

Yeah. No, I kind of, I was counting the votes on this from prior. to this final tribal council of Joe Rizzo, Jonathan. And I thought that Rizzo had it, but I do think that there might be a world where that Rizzo has rubbed a couple more people the wrong way, where with, you know, obviously Jonathan has his base where Chrissy and Stephanie and coach, he has three. They're not going anywhere. could he, we know Ozzy is not voting for Rizzo.

Ozzy is down on Rizzo. So I think that Ozzie becomes a Jonathan voter in that scenario, unless Surrey could really reel him in. You know, and you do wonder like that without Aubrey there, like does some of these swing voters end up going more to Jonathan? You know, could Rick vote for Jonathan over Rizzo? Yeah. I bet that Rick, I would put money that Rick would vote.

vote Jonathan over Rizzo. And maybe Christian, and Christian too. I just think Rizzo comes off. I mean, like, obviously we see the game Rizzo's playing. I just think he comes off as this like lazy, cocky kid.

Yeah. And, you know, that's what every person in their exit press has said was we didn't know, right? Like, we didn't know he was playing this great game. I think, you know, if he shows up a travel council, like, I was manipulating all of you. Like,

yes. That's not, that doesn't fly if people don't already believe that. Yes. I also think that Rizzo could have had an exceptional final travel council. I think he would actually be really good in that spot. But was the damage done. Where you hear people say that he was talking about himself as a legend,

and that was kind of a turnoff during the course of the season. So I really think it would have been a knockdown, dragout battle between Jonathan and Rizzo if they made it to the finals. Yeah. Although probably... I think it would have been a runaway for Jonathan. Honestly, but I'm not sure if we get to that scenario, because I think that then if Joe wins some motion,

who's making the fire? I mean, I think is Aubrey beating Rizzo in the fire? Oh, God. You know, they probably bring Rizzo to the final three and then Jonathan destroys Aubrey in the fire. Yeah, yeah. Jonathan destroys Aubrey and fire, I think is probably right. But Jeff spoils it.

Yeah. Well, how did you feel? So would you say that, you know, the thing that I've heard some people say, which I don't believe, that this was part of Aubrey's winners at it, that Jeff deliberately spoiled Jonathan's big moment at Final Tribal to, you know, make Aubrey's win more palatable.

Now, is this a joke? Did people really say that? No. Nobody's saying that. Nobody's saying that. But I have seen that people said, oh, no, this was this was on purpose. This was a inside job. And they did this on purpose so that they never have to do the live reunion again. Listen, they can say, like, I did not think that that was a true live reunion, as I'm sure many didn't. But that's nuts. Like, not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes people, just screw up. Yeah. I mean, they could,

Jeff has that much juice. Like, he could just say, we're not doing a live reunion ever again. Right, right. He doesn't have to stage. They didn't need a motive.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe they do it just for like, I mean, the only like, slightly Machia-Valian version is they do it just for like the press of it all, which it is like,

it was a big press moment, right? I mean, like that probably brought more attention to the finale than the finale itself. But, and it was fun, right? He handled it beautifully. Like, I really thought he did not know what was happening.

And like what from watching it, I truly believed that Jeff had not figured out what was happening while it was happening. Yeah. A live TV hit. People are like, oh, no, wait, they haven't aired fire yet. He's like, what? Like processing. I've got the cameras on me. I've got to fill air.

I've got to push to commercial. Let's just push to commercial and I'll figure it out. So they go to break and then did you watch the video where Jeff is like on the stage in the in the commercial break trying to figure out? So what happened? What do? I haven't seen that. No, that's fine. Yeah.

And they find out. He's like, oh, I effed up. Oh, oh, okay. That good. Not good. So, yeah, I do not think that you could even imagine that this was like an intentional plan. No. And also, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Nothing else to say about that. Yeah. But it was good. I mean, he handled it beautifully. It was fine. It was fun. It was like very memorable. Certainly like the most memorable part of the finale.

Maybe the season. Maybe. I mean, it's between that and it was, the coin flip between that and Mr. Beast. And the coin flip, yeah. Yeah. That's very funny. Oh, Port Rick got eclipsed. Yeah.

What did you think of, like, giving out gag gifts to people during the... It was crazy because, like, with Surrey, it was like, I mean, again, like, I know I'm, like, treading well-trod territory here, but... Surrey's, like, you are so emotional. You know, you are a... The spirit of survivor. ...chirirder franchise. Yeah. Spirit of Survivor.

We had this one-of-a-kind. Oh, Ozie, you get a t-shirt that... owns you, you loser. Like, what the hell, guys? Yeah, and then Rick got the coin. Right, that was great. Why did they have to do that?

Mostly, the coin was cool. Like, I feel like that's a very cool piece of memorabilia. Why do they have to, you know, why do they have to troll Ozzy like that? Like, this poor guy, like, if anything, like, give him something that boosts him up after this, like, quite, you know, quite public flame out. Yeah. What could they have given Ozzy? I don't know, like, you know, something that said.

Oscar or something. Give him an Oscar. Give them an like, like, we're going to give you an award. We're giving you the Oscar for the most improved game from where you've come the furthest. We want like lifetime achievement award for you, Oscar. Like that would be great. You know what?

Even in like these like these moments of failure, like you're bringing your true self and we could never ask anything more for you from you than then to always give us your authentic self. Not like, oh, we love you. Like that's just like, you know, in front of 10. million people, like in this extremely vulnerable place. And he's just seen Surrey get the spirit of Survivor War. He's probably thinking, like, wow, this is going to be awesome. I'm going to get some special thing that commemorates my, you know, role in this franchise. And it's a T-shirt.

I mean, at least he had the wherewithal to be like, oh, great, I get his shirt. You know, like, thank you for like at least knowing to just like, you know, be sarcastic about it. Yeah. I wonder, instead of the live reunion, because it seemed like that Survivor is uneasy about this. And I think we have a question about. this also. Let me see if I can if I can find it. But should they do, instead of a live

reunion show, what about an award show after the season is over, where that they come out and you know, it's very similar because obviously I think it's the open forum is obviously what they wanted to. Yeah, here's the question

from Ben Gregory. Do you think the reason they didn't have a more dynamic reunion was due to the heavy discourse throughout the season about confessional counts and pregame alliances, topics they wanted to avoid. Not to put my thumb on this guy. I do think that they, in a different,

in addition to it being like hurting cats to have 24 people on the stage miced up, that I do think that there would have been just, Jeff asked a question, people jumping in. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, just like you made that pregame alliance.

Just like, yeah, how come I didn't get more confessionals? It's like, like, I think it could have just devolved. But you'd hate, you'd hate to see, conflict between reality TV contestants on a reality TV show. Yes. Who knows what they're going to say? And also who knows how to control it?

Once the genies... Well, that's, I guess, the more of the... But they just like to turn out... Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I feel like those things are always pretty buttoned up, though. I mean, you occasionally get the, like, oh, you know, like, you know... For the most part, I've never seen that happen. Yeah.

I don't know. I think that's what they were trying to avoid and the reason why they did this way. But what do you think about my award show idea? I mean, we kind of had it with America's tribal council where it was kind of like an award show where that you could have shown clips. You know, get everybody there. People are nominated for awards as the you get the best blind side, you know, let people come out. They win their awards. They get to give like a little speech.

What if they can do an auction style too. Like you can choose between these two awards. One of these words is danger and the other is delights. Yeah. One of these words is the spirit of surviving. and the other is the... Yeah, and then you give it, like somebody you want to give an award,

they come out, they give their little speech for a couple of minutes. Yeah, I like that, sure. I mean, listen, it couldn't be worse than this, which was like nothing. This was the worst version because there was nothing, there was no content.

Like, we didn't get to see the, you know, the people in Iraq. What you want is just like, I love reunion shows. I watch reunion shows for shows that I don't even watch. Like, it's just like everyone's sitting there. They're kind of like, you know,

talking about what happened. They're sort of like a little, you know, they're their normal cells. like their real life selves. That's always the appeal is like seeing these people go from like the starving on the island version of themselves like, oh, here I am dressed up for like a normal, I'm a normal person again. Like I love that transformation.

It's like, you know, Jeff's so into like the birthing metaphor, but this is kind of like the rebirthing. You know, you like get birth on Survivor. You have this like crazy transformational experience. You lose, you know, 60 pounds. And then you come back and this is the finale is when you're sort of like brought back into civilization. Like here I am as like a person again. Like this was part of my life. I've processed it.

I'm moving forward and taking the lessons I learned into my new life. I feel like that's an important capstone just from the whole like spiritual journey of the show. But in the same way that you want more reunion shows, you watch reunion shows for things that you don't always watch. Like I think that the Bravo reunion show model is that, hey, we're bringing these people together. And now let's just like rehash the conflict that was going on. Whereas the Survivor reunion show, I think by design, and I think that this is what, you know, Jeff and or the production wants, is that they want closure. They want healing. And they actually don't want to reopen old wounds where maybe back in the earlier days of the show, they were looking for conflict at the reunion show. They went out of their way in this reunion show. This was a conflict-free night. I mean, there was no like, hey, Aubrey, Genevieve, you guys good? You know, that was like a classic staple of like, hey, Christian, how are you and Mike White? You know, we're, we're. We didn't explore.

Ozzy, are you still mad at Rizzo? No question was not asked to one person of, is anybody still on bad terms with anybody? And so I think that Survivor really wants to. It's not about the prize, even though it was $2 million. It's about the experience. What did you get out of it? Everybody's good. Pre-jury, I know you have a lot to say, but let's just hold up your corona.

And everybody is good. and let's just paper over any sort of like unpleasantness that anybody might have had. Yeah, I mean, I will say too that, you know, media and especially digital media have exploded since Survivor was doing reunions. And there is a lot more of that that you can get. Like if you want it, it's there, right? You can get all the interviews. You can get the video interviews. You can have like this whole wealth of like discussion and debate that exists in a way that it didn't even like five or ten years ago.

And certainly in the world that like everybody is online. If you want access to more of that, I guess it's there. So, like, you don't necessarily need to have people say they're sort of, like, one tagline thing when you've just gotten, you know, 30 versions of that. And I know that Survivor has, like, a... They are going for... I'm trying to say the right words.

An aspirational view of society. Of, like, this is, like, we're bringing out the best in people. But it, like, we're bringing out the best in people. But it, like, We're not being real, you know. People also are tuning in because we want to see some conflict. That's okay. We can handle it as viewers.

In fact, it's what we want. So we don't have to necessarily be, like, lowest common denominator and, like, manipulate things that didn't happen. But for the things that did happen, like, I think it's okay to talk about them. I think that people want to see more of that. Yeah. It's part of life. You know, I've got to say, having two kids.

All children's viewing now. It's all people hugging each other. They're all collaborating. They're working together to solve like trivial problems. Oh, the lights are out. We let's work together to like get the power back on. When I grew up, people were fighting with swords. Like that's what I watched.

I watched, you know, like you may. I mean, it's just like, you know, the freaking Tom and Jerry. We're trying to kill each other. And they prepared you for what was going on in the world. Yeah. Or like, you know, like, yeah, exactly.

Right. And, you know, we need more conflict on Survivor, just like we need Tom and Jerry back. I don't even know if we need more. conflict in the actual show, but I think it's okay in the reunion when you bring people back together to address the conflict that happened in the show. Yeah, right. Yes, exactly. Like, that is a way to engage with it. No, I really do miss the reunion. Yeah, I honestly preferred the on-location reunion to what we got, which I guess was the conspiracy theorist's version of

the point. This is like a little bit of a galaxy brain idea, but what have you? What the reunion, and they would never go for this, what if we brought in somebody else to host the reunion? Rosie! Okay. But I mean, okay, let's just say hypothetically, you brought in a different person. Rob, Sesternino. Not, I'm not saying like, okay, hey, what about me?

I would say yes. But, like, it's, like, I kind of feel like it would be a better product, ultimately, and not to say anything, take anything away from Jeff as the host of the show. But I wonder if it's just a different voice. And I think that Jeff has just so much control over everything that, you know, he would never go for that. You know, it's also like what his vision for everything is. And that's what you're getting in the reunion show. But in the same way of like, not to say that Traders is the best at this.

And Andy Cohen may not be necessarily the best reunion show host for the Traders. But I think that it's just having a different voice come in. And so it's not just necessarily, you know, here's like what I want everybody to say. I hear you, but like in general, and I actually think any like probably is the best at being another person to come in and, you know, obviously so close to the franchise and to the like, has some vision of behind the scenes. I feel like whenever that happens, it becomes even more formulaic, you know, the challenge does this all the time. They have other people come in. That person is really just like reading the script and reacting to the clips that are being aired, you know? And like it almost feels like they lack the ability to dig deeper because they are not on, on location.

because they don't have the intimacy. I feel like that's something that Jeff does have is like he knows what's happening. He knows the journey intimately. And so he's able to sort of like, you know, be even just like joke around in a way that like another host might feel like, I got an hour of live TV. I got to set up this clip.

You know, those two did this thing. That one did that thing. You know, it feels very like scripted in a way. All right. Well, I don't think we're having any more live reunion. So we don't have to fix this problem. Yeah. But you would be great.

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So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Stephen, let's take some of these questions that I have for you about the season as we look back. And so, okay, this is from Brooklyn Zed says, I found season 50 to be way more fun week to week than season 40. If you also found it more fun, any thoughts about why that was? I am with you so much, Brooklyn Zed. I totally agree. Like the, the, I just thought it was really fun.

And I think part of that was because the players were, yeah, seemed to be having more fun. I mean, you've got Rick out there. It was very fun, you know, you know, Christian having a great time. I mean, Surrey obviously, like, you know, 40 did feel more like a slog in some way. It was fun in the beginning. Now, again, my, some of this might be our worldview as the coronavirus pandemic really unfolded as the season went along. Were we having less fun?

So we were having less fun. But I also think that there was a darkness in season 40 where things did get very bleak towards the middle, like post-merge. I think that there was a bleakness of, you know, people really like freezing out Jeremy. And there was like some not fun. You know, I think that Tony can be fun. But I think that just coming down the. stretch, you know, Ben's not having fun, Denise isn't having fun, Nick Wilson's not having fun. Like, it's not necessarily like a warm and fuzzy group that you're watching towards the end of the game.

There's everything that's going on at the edge, which is also bleak. So I do think that there was more done in season 50 to really try to incorporate this idea of people having fun from the contestants themselves like Rick Devons to also the, lightheartedness of Jeff being in the challenge. And I think that it was intentionally more of a, of a, I don't want to say celebration, but I think that there was a little bit more of a joyfulness added to this season. And there really was a surprise. You didn't really know what was going to happen week to week in a way that I thought, I mean, like, which could be very frustrating when something like the blood moon happens.

But I also thought, like, what could be fun. I really liked a lot of things. I thought the pairs twist was really good. And also now what's cool about the pairs twist is that now every time they have to split in the pairs, they're going to be thinking, oh, are we going to have to vote each other? Like, I feel like that adds a layer of strategic complexity to a format thing. Do you think that part of it is all not to be an apologist for the 26 day game, but I think that the 39 day game does become such a, yeah, more of a slog, such a war of attrition,

that is it easier to keep it more lighthearted in the 26 day game? Right, maybe so, because like there's like, like by the end of that 39 day game, like your body is just like, you know, done, right? Like, you're just like trying to like stay conscious, you know? And then so you sort of like get up, you sort of stagger over to the voting booth and you write someone's name down.

I think you're probably right that like in the 26 day game is a little bit more. And it's a more frenetic game now. I mean, you know, obviously there's cons to that. But maybe maybe pros as well, Brooklyn's Ed. whom was a good, you know, a great friend of, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. This is from Taylor Gavin, 1938. Do you think that players past seasons should be as widely considered for a win? Jonathan played a better season, but because he didn't have the same past, he lost, is that fair? First of all, I think that this is a loaded question because I don't know if I agree with every part of the question. Let me take it in pieces that do you think that players past seasons should be considered for a win? I mean, it should be. It's such an impossible thing.

How about this? Has it happened before where people have voted for a player based on the past body of work? Right. That's a good question. I mean, you know, I feel like people vote for you so much based on their whole perception of you, right? Yes. Like so much, like Sandra wins Heroes versus Villains partially because she's a mom and a military, you know, mom, you know, wife. And like, you know, obviously she played a good game too.

But like so much of who of that final vote is based on the whole, you know, nebulous, you know, group of perceptions that people have about you. And I do think that the past, your past performance really influences that. But I'm trying to think of who. I would say, I don't think that a lot of Sandra's winning Heroes versus Villains is based off the past performance. I would say that I'm not sure everybody on that. the jury saw Sandra's first season of Survivor before they ended up playing in Heroes versus Villains.

This is not the new era. These players, are we sure are we sure coach watched Pearl Islands before? It was hard. You had to get DVDs back then. Are we sure Amanda Kimmel had seen Heroes versus Villains?

So I think that it was, in that unique case, I think that there was also another past winner that was there. So it wasn't like, okay, we're not voting for her because she's won before. I think it was, you know, some pro-Sandra votes, some anti-Russle poverty votes. I don't think in that case, I wonder if Tony's win. I mean, Tony played a great game in winners at war, but I also think that, well, they had all won before. So it wasn't like that

they were voting for. So, so I don't even think that Tony's- But he had a reputation as being this strategic mastermind. How did we let him get to the end? I think that might have been considered. Right. And the way that Michelle didn't, right? Like, nobody had this, no, people's perception of Michelle was she didn't necessarily deserve her win the first time, right? Versus like Tony, like, oh, one of the most dominant games ever. So, like, of course that's coloring your perception of the people saying that. So I'm trying to think of people who play, like, I don't think that in second chance, you guys were voting about, but Jeremy plug, I mean, coming off of what he did in San Juan del

Sir, we got to give him the win. Yeah, I don't think that was part of it. But I think, but again, like, so much of what, you know, Jeremy played an amazing game. I do think, like, he was awarded for his game. But it's also like, here's a dad. He's a fireman. But it wasn't, he's got a son coming. His past resume.

Right. But I mean, a lot of it, but like every, I think it all kind of feeds in, you know. And certainly your past is determinative of how, whether or not people vote for you. Yes. Like everyone thought I thought I was a, you know, devious threat coming into Cambodia. But like, you know, that's not, wasn't fair. It wasn't a fair assessment. But I do think that this win for Aubrey had a little bit baked into the way that like an Oscar vote might happen where it's like,

she's never gotten this, and this is, we are recognizing a, yes, this, like, you wouldn't give, like, whatever actor, the Oscar, they were in a crappy movie. It's like, yeah, this was a good movie, but also they'd never gotten it before, so. Oh, yeah, that's, it's always that, right? It's always that sense of, like, yeah, like, that,

they did it good, and also, like, there's sort of a sense of having deserved it. Honestly, I'm fine with it. Yeah. And then to say, Jonathan played a better season, but didn't win because he didn't have the same past. again, I don't think that that's the only reason. I think that that is part of it.

Right. I mean, and again, like we've seen a lot of these pairings. I mean, honestly, I mean, again, like the Aubrey-Michel pairing is like the perfect counter example. Yeah. And I think as Christian talked about in the Final Trave Council, the narrative warfare, Aubrey was able to, you know, tell that story, to tell her narrative. Yes, yes.

And I did throughout it a great job of that. Someone messaged me, like, should Jonathan have used the final, for tribal council to more talk about what a threat he was or something like he never really played up his threat level to the jury

in a way that maybe he could have you know so he didn't really like lay the groundwork whereas like I feel like Aubrey was kind of consistently doing a good job of telling her story throughout. Yeah I think that the block of swing voters that Jonathan

really needed to get was like Rick Christian Emily and I'm not sure necessarily what he could have said. It sounded like that Maybe Emily was maybe leaning more towards Joe than Jonathan. Really? I mean, she talked about how that there was power in Joe's, and Joe told me that.

I thought she was just being nice. She's being nice. Yeah. Okay. You know, yeah. I don't know. That was my takeaway. Yeah.

You know, like finding, like, you know, that was sort of like, you know, you're intractable and hard to work with, but like, there's power in that. Yeah, but I feel like that Emily is typically known for saying what she means. Like, I don't think this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like there's a kinder. Maybe, maybe you're, you know, maybe you're right. Like, maybe I'm misjudging Emily. You're absolutely right. You know, I do feel bad for Joe. I mean, like, truly like, he seems like such a wonderful, decent guy. And yeah, a hard, hard season in the top edit, it really did sort of like, you know, they really did pile on him at time. But I thought he handled everything with so much grace in terms of, you know, where Jonathan has, there's been so much discourse about how Jonathan has handled it. Joe, and again, maybe this is like the benefit of that he's already. done this before, this happened him.

He's like, I talked to him and he's like, I'm great. Like, listen, I've, you know, I've finished in the, in the top three, two seasons, never been voted out of this game. Like, you say what you want about me, but I feel pretty damn good about how I did. And I'm in a new Tyler Perry show.

Like maybe, maybe like sort of like makes it a little sweeter. Yeah, he really did seem to have perspective on all of this. Did he get any votes in the last one? He did. He got Cedric's vote in season 48. Yeah. So, and he seemed like he was having a hard time during the course of the season where there was people, although Joe blocked me and people were sort of feeling like that Joe was going through it. But I don't know, something happened to him before he didn't go down to Ecuador, did he? Some plant medicine. I don't know. He seemed like he seemed like he was doing great. Yeah. I've got to say that I'm very pro-blocking. I don't block a lot of people myself, but I feel like if you want to block someone, block them. You don't know, you don't owe someone.

you know, their, their, their nonsense commentary on social media. Yeah. You know, I have rarely blocked people in my social media history. If somebody is just, like, harassing you, I do feel like, block away. Yeah. But maybe I'm in a different position in terms of, like, who I am in terms of, like, you know, I don't mind, like, a hard question. But if you're going to, like, outright harass me, you could get blocked.

But I would just say, if someone's impolite to me, I'm like, I don't, why would I want this? This is my way to have like this is my fun You know like I'm coming on social media like to chat and have fun Like this is not my work like I don't have any obligation here Like if someone's like saying something mean like why would I choose to like continue I love that for you I love that for you Unfortunately maybe that's where my wiring is off

I feel like I struggle with that Yeah Okay let's see what else Did Aubrey consciously deciding that the players are the only audience that matters contribute to our not overwhelming excitement for this result. Again, I disagree with the thesis. I think there were people that were overwhelmingly excited for the result. Aubrey told me that she had done some work on prior to coming in. One of the things she picked up was that the jurors, the other players, are the ultimate audience, not the audience at home.

The ultimate audience in what context? In terms of that those are the people you need to win over, not necessarily the other participant or the audience at home. That's very smart. Like, I felt like I was always like stuck at tribal because I was trying to speak to like the jury, speak to the players left in the game, speak to the audience at home, speak to Jeff. And like, how do you like thread that needle? But it's very smart to just be like, nope, it's the other players like those who

will be the people I'm performing for it. It's very like clarifying. I wonder if that's something that she ultimately picked up from like a Sarah Lascena. Right. Right. Maybe so. Yeah. Sarah played a great game. And Sarah played a great game. And I think that the people who are around Sarah, like this is one of my favorite things to talk about,

like people, some people who have in-person charisma, and then there's people who have on-camera charisma. And not just like on Survivor. But this is like all over the place where I think that Sarah and I think that Gabor are two people that almost universally, people who are around them in real life, rave.

They can't get enough of this person. Sarah especially, like people are like crazy. Very discerning people. Like some of my friends were the toughest critics are like crazy about Sarah. Yes.

And then you see her on camera and you're like, what? Yeah. She doesn't have the on camera Riz, but she has it in person in spades. I've never met her. Or if I have only briefly. But there's also people who are the opposite

where, and I'm sure you've met these people where on camera like, oh my God. Like, I love this person. And then you spend time with them And they're like, oh, this is, this is, was not fun at all. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, they're performers. And, you know, there's a few, lucky few like us who have both. Amazing in any context. Amazing. In person and on camera. Yeah.

I mean, those are the select few. Yeah. But that's probably like a surrey. Yeah. Right. You know, the audience loves them. And then the people around them love them. Yeah.

Yeah. an amazing confessionalist. But I think that when we're struggling, like, I don't get it. Like, how did this person, like, why did they vote for this person? Like, I think that it typically is that they just have that in-person aura where they just, like, suck you in, but that it just doesn't always translate to the television. I got to say, I've corresponded with Gabler on social media. He's a very positive, wonderful guy. Like, I had just, like, all those, like, positivity and, like, kindness, just like, I mean, like, whenever he, like,

comments on my posts or just sends me like a random, you know, DM about like something that I posted. It's just like always very nice. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If he's ever at an event, like, he just like has like a real like intensity where, you know, you sort of shake his hand. Like, okay, I get it. I get it with Gabe Blair.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's see. We've got, uh, the boomerang idol was the worst most most influential twist. Screw Genevieve, Christian and Surrey. agree or disagree? Yes.

I think that's probably right. I mean, the, the, the blood moon sucked, too, like a lot, like really sucked. Like,

we lost Genevieve, Colby and Camilla in that, in the Blood Moon. And that, you know, sort of was, so,

I mean, I guess the Boomerang Idol and the Blood Moon are sort of both responsible for, for Genevies Alster. But, so,

I mean, that was really influential, too, because Colby was ahead of his alliance, Genevie was, like, super-inschonsons in a lot of alliances, and obviously

was going to about at Aubrey, like, How could, like, losing Genevieve not, you know, not be more, you know, seen as one of the biggest turning points of the season. But, yes, the boom ring idol really was not good. Do you feel like, never played out? Is it results oriented, though? Like, is there a world where it could have been good?

I mean, that's tough. That's it, is there a world where it could have been good? Like, yes, maybe. Was it always going to suck? I don't know. I mean, there's a world where, like, the problem was that people were separated from each other. So they never really had the chance to play with the boomer.

ring idol. So like you can't like the the premise is I send this boom ring idol to someone else. I blind send them and I get the the idol back. But they like you know they didn't really have the opportunity that much. Genevieve was gone by the time she was on a beach with Rizzo or she was not on a beach with Rizzo and Ozzie. And you know, then the Christian Aubrey one it was like they could have done it. I think there was some reason they didn't do it like I think they thought about it. Anyway. The idols really were a non-factor in the season. Like the idea of the,

the threat of the idols was more of a, you know, deciding factor in the season than actually anything that was going on with the idols. And I think that the Billy Elish boomerang idol being non-transferable for some reason also really affected the gameplay. I guess it kind of has to be non-transferable

because if you give it to someone and then, does it go back to you if that person has voted out? Like, there's like weird mechanical stuff there. But, yeah, like, that's a stupid like that was just like the same thing with like the um whatever with the the the inheritance but why couldn't i play it on another person right like yes yeah i mean that that was that was the that was the that suri got advantage getting right was because the um whatever it was the in the legacy advantage was not transferable i feel like someone just like writes a rule like they're like in their head like

is not transferable you know like just like someone someone's like something like pa is like getting in their in their in their vibes about like writing writing the rules for this and then they don't really think through the consequences that sir the lawyer Okay. And then Ben Gregory wants to know that what can the open era do differently than the new era to promote the most entertaining gameplay while still being pure to the original game? I have opined a little bit about what I think the open era could mean. Oh, tell me.

Can you give me the summary version? My synopsis is that, you know, Jeff this week talked about how he is at the FYC event. And he talked about how, hey, the game is a... impossible. There's no way to win the game. It's actually impossible. It's by design. We made it this way. And so there's no way. If you win the game, it's a miracle for you to win the game. So I think that reading between the lines is like, hey, there's no actual strategic way that you could play the game. And the only way to actually proceed forward is to go full devons. And we want people in the open era.

We are encouraging that, forget the big moves, take the big swings, take the risk, Yolo, go for it, and go on the journey, you know, flip the coin, go for it, try to get the advantage because that's actually the only, the only way to get through is to, you can't plan for the game. Stop playing in the shadows. Like, get out there. Go for it. Just what we all want.

So that, I mean, look, look, I mean, we've talked sort of ad nauseum about how having more twist-heavy structure actually leads to more conservative. Yes. Because you're inherently trying to like minimize risk and like maximize control and like, why would you do some crazy thing? I guess there probably is some inflection point at which you have so little control that you might as well just like do whatever. Maybe like societally were there too. but like you know like it's it's like maybe they're just keeping on turning the dial until like you know until there we people have no choice but to play erratically yeah is that similar to your takeaway for what the open era could be i kind of think so like if you have no idea what the

next thing is then maybe there is some like which is sort of like been what we've been saying about the new era maybe there's some justifications and like grabbing the thing. But then like look what happened to Christian. I mean like, you know, that sucked. Yeah.

Why would you, why would you choose to go on a journey when the downside could destroy you? And the upside will maybe marginally help you. I mean, if the powers are stronger, I mean, like we've talked about this too. Like in other contexts,

if the powers are stronger, then maybe it does sort of like force that more aggressive risk taking play. Like maybe if there is a medallion of power out there, you go for it. Maybe go for it. And maybe that the quiet part is like, sure, you don't have to, but you won't do anything. You'll get purple. Yeah, you were on Survivor, but were you on Survivor?

You had one confessional, and we're not going to show you. And we're really going to like that the hero of the story. I mean, would you rather have been Rick Devons in this season? Or would you have rather been, you know, I'm trying to think of it. And it's probably not fair to single out somebody. no, I would have rather be Aubrey and win the $2 million. But I'm trying to think of somebody who would be comparable of somebody who was like a little bit more of,

they didn't really take chances. And I don't want to single anybody out from the cast. Because I really, I don't think that there was like a real wallflower who didn't try to go for it in this season. No, but I mean, I will say that it really would be Aubrey, right? Like the whole, Aubrey's whole game was like, I'm not going to put myself out there. I'm not going to do a crazy thing.

I'm going to play more conservatively. I'm going to stay under the radar because that's how I'm going to win. But she shot the moon and she hit it. You know, I'm trying to think maybe there's somebody like from Survivor 49 of like, you know, somebody who was like a little bit more of a wallflower like an Alec in season 49. Who? I was thinking 48, Kyle. Well, Kyle won.

That's my point. He wasn't this flashy crazy player. Or Mitch. Mitch maybe is the better example of like, okay, do you want to be, do you? want to be Rick Devin's or do you want to be Mitch? Like, they both end up finishing in a pretty similar spot. Yeah, right.

I think Mitch was, Mitch was fifth and Rick Devin's was seventh. Mitch did better. Do I want to be Mitch? You know? So I think it's like, hey, you know, get your,

get moving. Like, start going for these advantages. Take your swing. Right. Just get voted out of you either after. All right. Stephen, this was a delight to catch up about everything

season 50 and beyond. And we got so much stuff coming up. The WAND off is coming up this Friday. There's a little tribe and I have spoken decal. Yeah, the sticker on the guitar. For

Wandoff submissions, get them in Robbins website.com slash Wandoff. Last call for Wondoff submissions. And then we will get those talk to Dr. Christian Hubecki in Los Angeles. I had said I have had incredible FOMO for not recording the book talk I did with Stephen in Washington, D.C., but I had my camera and recording equipment with us in L.A.

This picture of your chat. I mean, look at the breadth of your shoulders and your chest with a great thing. Yeah. We had a great videographer in L.A., so check that out. That's up on the YouTube channel. my conversation with Christian the day after the finale. And then last night we did Club Condo with Chappelle and check that out up on Patreon. I also talked to Marianne on Monday about Marianne's thoughts on Aubrey's game and her trip to the finale.

So check that out as well. And then on Friday I'll be back with more patron questions and answers. I think that 1 o'clock is going to be when our patron Q&A is. So I'll be back taking your questions live on Friday, on Patreon. Then this is Stevens. What do you have coming up? Yes, on June 7th, I'll be at the American Writers Festival in Chicago. So come on by.

I'm on an interesting panel about humor and suspense. So if you are in Chicago and are interested in American writers, it's I believe, free admission. It says that right there. So it's free and just come by. I think my panel is 2 or 3 p.m. But come on by. There's the suspense.

You don't know. get it started. And then that same weekend, if you're in New York City, come out to the Tribeca Film Festival. We're going to be having a Survivor panel with myself, Jonathan Penner, Surrey, among many others will be there at the Tribeca Film Festival. Tickets are at Robits website.com slash Tribeca.

And then, Oh, our friend Rick Devin has this incredible shirt that he's designed, again, with the wonderful Brian Malloy, who did my surf dog shirt. it's available only for one more day. It is no longer available. Is this podcast going up today? Yes.

On May 28th, it will be no, is when it will no longer be available. You can get this very fun shirt at www. www.devins. I've heard from a lot of people who are like, we want that surf dog shirt. We miss the window.

Like, can you bring it back? No, I'm not bringing it back. And if you want, so don't miss your opportunity to get this Devon's shirt as well. You said, no, we're not bringing it unless you want it? Is that what you said?

Oh, no, no, no, I'm not bringing it back. Unless you, no. Just like they can. bring that dog back. That they're not bringing the shirt back. Exactly. Once the dog is gone. That's right.

Yeah. That's right. All right. Anything else fun coming up for you? No. I mean, just, you know, American Writers Festival and,

you know, going into hibernation over the summer. Yes. While I wait for the next season. Yes. You watching anything fun? I have just been watching season two of Squid Game the Challenge. I'm almost at the end,

very much enjoying it. Yes. I'm loving it. Yeah. All right. What about you? No, not really.

Like, I've watched Hatch. recently. I watched a lot of hacks in my traveling. You enjoy it? I enjoy it, yes. You know what I'm watching? I'm watching this long interview with J.C. Chasseh and Lance Bass from InSink about their trajectory, which is very interesting. Why? I didn't know that that was of interest to you.

Well, you know, Insync was big when we were, you know, it was just interesting to hear like these like, you know, obviously like this aging and faded, you know, faded relevance is something that's very, you know, acutely interesting for me. So it feels like, yeah. So I feel like this is, you know, fascinating to hear them reflecting on their journey, you know, where it went wrong with Lou Pearlman. Wow. Yeah. I didn't know you had such an interest in it.

Now, is it just in sync or is it all a boy band? For some reason, it's really in sync, you know, them especially. You know, I never really got into the Backstreet Boys as much. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, that Backstreet's Backstrip. Yeah, of course. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us, everybody.

Take care of good one. Bye. I'm always looking for those tips and tricks to help optimize my life. ways to save money, travel better, and make life a little easier. That's why I love all the hacks. The podcast hosted by Chris Hutchins, that's all about practical tips you can actually use. Every episode breaks down strategies around personal finance, productivity, travel rewards, career growth, all the stuff I wish I learned earlier. What I like is that it's not hype or gimmicks. It's real advice you can apply right away. And honestly, if you like optimizing anything in your life, this show is for you. So when you support

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