RHAP: We Know Survivor - Purple Pants Podcast | Strategic Blindsides & Emotional Revelations

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

 Join @briceizyah, @wendellholland , @jackatkins21, and #Survivor43’s @j2dajones as they dissect all the strategy, shade, and shocks from Survivor 48, Episode 12—“Icarus Time”

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It's the Purple Pants podcast, you better listen in, public mic make your stomach hurt. It's the Purple Pants podcast, you tryna unwind, you better get that box whined. It's the Purple Pants podcast, you tryna get your snack, you better hurry right back though. It's the Purple Pants, this week's Survivor News. I serve as your humble and oh so gracious host, Bryce Isaiah. And I thank you so much for tuning in to this week's recap. If you could be so kind to ensure you are subscribed to the Purple Pants podcast.

And as always with your Survivor News content, you can watch this audio podcast on video. Head over to the Bryce Isaiah YouTube channel, click subscribe, give this video a thumbs up, and let us know in the comments what you think about this week's episode, a move was had on Survivor Season 48, episode 11. Is it a big enough mood? a move was had on Survivor Season 48, Episode 11.

Is it a big enough move to change the outcome of this season? We've got some players playing and we've got the strong Alliance still standing strong. We're super excited to be joined by Survivor Season 48. James Jones, Wendell Holland, Jack Atkins, and myself dive into all things, Episode 11 of Survivor Season 48, James Jones, Wendell Holland, Jack Atkins, and myself dive into all things Episode 11 of Survivor Season 48. Let's get into this week's Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News.

Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News.

Survivor News. Survivor News. Survivor News. Duh duh duh. And we are back covering your Survivor of Survivor season 48 episode 12. I think we have a lot to get into. So let's welcome back to the podcast, the winner of Ghost Island, Mr. Wendell Holland.

How are you doing today? I'm good. How you doing, perp? I am great. Jackery from the Circle season season two, what's poppin' with you? Dude, chillin'. You know, been a busy, sort of busy work week, and I always just look forward to hoppin' on with you guys,

and excited that we got a special guest today. One of your favorite guests, it can't be a Survivor new season. If we don't welcome the man, the myth, the Survivor, the real Survivor know it all from Survivor season 43, Mr. James Jones. JJ, what's going on with you? Hey, man, it's good to talk to everybody on the call. Bryce, Wind, Jack.

It's been a long year. It's been a, you know, crazy year, but I'm finally, you know, glad to get on and call, Bryce, Winn, Jack. It's been a long year. It's been a crazy year, but I'm finally glad to get on and talk to you guys. It's been a while, it's been way too long, and I'm gonna correct that next season, but I'm glad to be here today. So I'm ready to get cracking about this fun season that I'm having fun watching,

that all of you out there are hating, because I love this dominant gameplay. And that's it. Well, it's good to, it's been a minute, but it's good to have you, you know, prime time penultimate episode of the season. You know, you're in the prime time slot here. Hey, I mean, just making my time slot. Maybe I may just call this a James slot from now on.

Just pencil me in here, maybe. Okay, just a pencil in the James lot. Okay, we can do that. Well, listen, we were in Boston last night. I feel like our energy helped the Boston Celtics win a game. I don't know if they'll win the series, but Boston was absolutely epic.

There were so many surprise guests and stars and the energy in Boston was truly amazing. It makes me sad to think that there is only one stop left on the BWP tour. We are heading to New York next week. We've got a multitude, yes, a multitude of events for you to attend. We have a real talk on April, I'm about to say April, May 20th. We also have our karaoke party on April 20th and all things are leading to the road of the finale on April.

I don't know why I keep saying April. I don't want the season to end on May 21st. Tickets are available at BrysonWynn.com. Boston was a legend, a star. We had so many people in the building, so many Boston undergrounds was there. The game, seeing the people play was truly amazing. How was Boston for you, Wendy Z?

I had a great time. It was mad fun. Boston's always great, great energy. And yeah, it was a great evening. I enjoyed it. I was jealous. I've missed the tour this year and seeing all the fun tour stops. I was I was jealous looking and that's it.

You know, just jealous. It's fun. Same here. But Bryce, go ahead. That New York fire back up real quick. I see a couple familiar faces on the New York flyer. Is that the baby boy? I mean front and center. Call me Tyrese Halliburton.

I'm gonna be pulling up to New York. So you just step right in front of Rachel. Yeah, that's great. You guys are too, hey, I appreciate it being on the Austin fire. You don't have to put me front and center, you know. I appreciate it. Is that what your text message read, Jack? Which one?

The one where you said, I'm coming to New York, put me in front of Rachel. That's not what it said. That's not what it said. Let's clear that up. I've had enough beef this season. I don't need beefs that aren't even true. No, I said I'm coming to New York.

Hell tricky to put me on the fire, but I'm happy wherever on the fire. You can put me in the back next to Dan from Squid Game. But I mean, I just love seeing my face amongst some legends and very excited to come to New York because like James, I've missed out on a lot of this tour. So I'm very excited. But James, aren't you coming too? Oh yeah, I'm in the building, New York. I'm coming up there.

It's about to be fun. Last year was kind of crazy. I plan to recreate, well, maybe not, but everybody, if you don't have a ticket, get a ticket. They're probably close to being sold out. So I wouldn't play around. So that's just my advice and I'll see you there. Tell Tricky, put James on the flyer.

We might have to put James in front of Jack. That's fine. I don't want that smoke. See, no, I will take my early merge boot self and just, you know, I'm good. Ain't nothing wrong with early merge boot. I just, you know, I'm good. Ain't nothing wrong with early merge boot. I do want to know, James Jones, we saw Knowledge is Power last episode. And I feel like the last time we saw Knowledge is Power was your season.

How did that feel seeing the return of the Knowledge is Power? Wasn't that like with Eva? When that was that Eva getting that again or she decided not to play for it or something like that, which was very smart. I mean, I feel like it's a great advantage. And I feel like they won it in the game because Eva's idol was so public. But at the same time, it's kind of do it like you did to me. Put it in the water well, like put the note in the water.

If you want someone else to get it, just do it like that. Like this whole. Yeah. So, I mean the note in the water well. If you want someone else to get it, just do it like that. Like this whole, yeah. So I mean, it was good to see. I think it would have been interesting if it came up and worked, but, I still am cursed, I'm still cursed, clearly. I feel like Justice for Tsunami, I don't know what was the idol that Sue had to get

last season and it fell down and- Oh, the red one. Yeah, I feel like that's how you should encapsulate a knowledge's power. Oh, I mean, I feel like it's one of those things where I feel like production wants it in the game to, you know, but that's the case, just put it in the game. Make sure someone gets it and let the drama

or ensue afterwards. But I think it's still a solid advantage if you get it secretly and no one knows you have it. And it's interesting, it hasn't worked yet, but when it does, it's gonna pop. But it does work though, when someone stills an idol and it gets voted off the next week, it's gonna pop. So James, before we get into the episode,

I mean, you always come in with takes. Some are bangers, some are not. But can you set the stage on your thoughts on this season for us before we dive into this episode specifically? Because you said up top that you maybe were liking the season more than others. So just give me the James Jones take on the season so far.

I mean, I'm enjoying the season. I'm enjoying looking at the gameplay as far as from the top down and just how you kind of those big alliances kind of work. I wish we got a little bit more of kind of the inside relationships within that kind of mega alliance. But for me, it was good to first have watching Vula just die, right?

And then, you know, they died a very slow death. And then you get to the merge and the game starts very quickly. And you have to identify and I think identify where you're at and when you need to make a move and kind of your place. And Jeff said the game moves fast, but I think what happened this season is that,

you know, players got together and they saw other seasons and they said, we're not gonna be the players that take each other out before we get to the end. And, you know, made the best person win. I know a lot of people kind of are rooting for, oh, people should have made a big move. There were opportunities, you know, Kyle made a big move,

he used his idle to get out of trouble and he may win the game. I mean, Mitch Chrissy had a big chance to make a big move but they wanted the target say because she was so powerful. So I mean, you only get a certain amount of times to take shots and sometimes it just is too late after you missed that shot, you know? So I think for me, the season has been good.

Do I think there could be more, you know, more surprises in Lex Inks? But I don't mind the begoning every now and then. I mean, it's rewarding good players for good play. And we'll see what happens at the end, because I think this final episode may be one of the best final episodes in the new era, because we don't know who's going to win.

Everybody has a compelling choice. And when was the last time you went into the final episode saying like five of the five people have a really good chance that you wouldn't be surprised to win that episode. Devil's advocate, just going based off of Twitter, Reddit and X, do five of the five have a good chance to win? Did you see my season and who won? What?

I didn't. But, okay, okay. Who has no blood on their hands? That's not what I was saying though. So if we looked at the final five and I asked the same question, like. I say four or five. Okay.

Are you ruling out Mitch? Are you afraid to say Mitch doesn't have a chance to win? Jack? No comment. Okay. And that's not personal on Mitch but just the way we've seen things shake out is like, who's Mitch gonna be?

I mean, I don't think Mitch is going to win, but what blood does Mitch have on his hands? Well, what blood does Camilla have on her hands? Oh, she has a lot of blood on her hand. I feel like that's the unspoken thing is when people get back to the Pondy, they're gonna be like, that Camilla, she's with us, but how does she get here?

Cause the whole game, they're thinking, oh, she's with me, but how does she get here? You know, like, cause the whole game, they're thinking, oh, she's with me. She's at the bottom. She's, oh no, she's making moves. Oh no, she knows everything going on. Oh no. She led on a lot more than what people thought at the same time.

Is that not how Maryann played? Hey, Camilla's my winner pick. So, you know, I. Yeah, I don't think Camilla's necessarily had a lot of blood on her. She's been scheming in a lot of ways, but she's not, I don't, I don't expect anyone on the jury to be very bitter towards Camilla, especially given the fact that they might be bitter towards Joe and Eva. That could actually, I think is why I feel more confident in Kyle or Camilla potentially

winning. So I just. Are they more bitter in Kyle or Camilla potentially winning. So I just find it helping. Are they more bitter towards Kyle or Camilla? Like going in, like what's the bitter matter? I don't think, I'm kind of with that on this, right? I definitely think again, from like, we've never seen a protest pre the time that you can talk as a jury member than a David,

with David standing up protesting the Mary, right? Like I feel like we've seen in Chrissy's exit interviews, her saying that, like, sure, the strong and integrity Lions wants to play how they want to play, but I want to play a game that I want to play. I feel like star being blindsided. I feel like there are, in my opinion, the interesting part will be the jury. I think that that is where we're going to see the lie. Hoorah! Because I think that although you're playing a great game and getting to the end in Survivor, I think that a blunder is the jury and how they're getting there. So I just think that I might be with you, Jackery, a little bit where it's like the jury might,

I mean, the jury obviously has the final say, but I think the jury is really gonna have the final say. Yeah. But I hear you, James. I mean, I do think it's gonna, it should be an exciting finale because I do think four of the five have a shot to win. And a lot of these things that have been building

up are going to finally come to a head. And I'm excited to see what happens. And I think there's a lot to unpack as we approach. I think especially like you said, Brian, I think the jury this season, the jury themselves, but also how the players that are still in the game are thinking about the jury is kind of the main factor right now in all the decisions that are being made, more so than any normal season. And I think that's where the complexity of Kyle's game and his decisions has been really fascinating to me.

And that's just kind of what I've been thinking about like since, I mean, for the last few episodes, but especially after last night, like the way that he's looking at the game, I think is very, very nuanced. And that's what I was excited to unpack. Yeah. But I mean, I also do just wanna dive

into your brain a little bit more, because you keep saying the four out of the five, and you know, this is a Mitch Stan podcast here, and we stan the baby boy Mitch. And so what are you actually saying? Are you saying that he did not make moves that he should have made? Oh, I didn't want to, I don't want to get in.

I think- I am just curious because I feel like in the episode, Mitch, when he was talking to, when he was rocking Shaheen on the hammock, he was saying like, we said that we would get to six and then we could play our own game. And so I thought that that was interesting to happen, James Jones, because I also-

Who is the we? What alliance was Mitch a part of? That's just good gameplay. Like from our viewpoint, Mitch has always been a number and not really a contributing alliance member. So when you say we get the six, the question is what was your plan and who were your people, right?

When you see Survivor, you kind of are planning for the, like who are your people, who are you making a move with? And what we see is especially, it's too late to start the move early. Shaheen pointed this out this year. When he point planned the seeds for David, you can't just pop up and say, I want to make a move. Those seeds have to be kind of cultivated

so that that move can be done. And I'm pretty sure they didn't show us some, you know, cow planting seeds about Shaheen, some Camilla planting seeds about Shaheen throughout the year. And I think those are the things that when you, that you do make that move, it does make it more palatable

when you actually have done that and you've had some equity throughout the game. Great. But you would agree that Mitch hasn't done a ton of that, at least from what we've seen. And then, I think the we is he, I think Mitch's biggest flaw is that he overestimated his position in his alliance.

And it's not as, he's not as high in the totem pole as I think at one point. That's really my question, right? Because I feel like if we're talking on honesty and integrity, I feel like Mitch is the epitome of that. Right? Like Mitch is like, we said, he said it when he again was rocking Shaheen, he said, we all at one point said,

this will be our final six. And we agreed that once we get to final six, we could do however it shakes out. And so I feel like that's Mitch honoring, hey, we'll get to the final six. But I also feel like in that final six, there's a hierarchy. and it's like, I guess, getting to the final six or being in a-

Some people are happy to play to get far. If you're playing to get to the final six, what's your four within the six and what's your three inside the two? I mean, you get four and that's all you really need kind of sort of, but you kind of want a three. But you had to think inside your alliance. Who are my people within my group?

So clearly Joe, Eva, Kyle, and Camilla knew they had a group inside a group. You know, and the other people thought that they had a group inside the group. And that's just good survivor play where it's kind of like, Shain's like, Joe's my number one. I was Joey number one, Eva's his number one.

You gotta figure that part out, my God. And I love Cheyenne the Dutch, you know? You know, you kind of have to figure out who that person is. And if you don't have that person, look around and say, wait, it's kind of, you know, me and Mitch versus Kyle, Camilla and Joe and Eva. Well, I actually think that's why this season has been so stagnant in a sense is that everybody in this alliance

seems to feel like they're, that they have their core and that they have some paths to the end and that sticking with this group is their best move, which for a lot of people it is because I think it's very hard to decipher. And that's why, again, I talk, I bring back the jury because the way that people are interpreting the jury is gonna really break, like break down I bring back the jury because the way that people are interpreting the jury is going

to really break down who's going to have the best shot to win the game. Joe and Eva might think that the jury is going to love them, but Kyle and Camilla might think the jury is not going to like Joe and Eva, and so they have a better chance. So I think that's why. And then clearly, Mitch, and maybe we didn't see a lot of it, thought he was in tighter with this group than he really was, but he maybe thought that Kyle and Camilla would be his final three and he'd have a route. So that's why I feel like it kind of reminds me like the Reba four, they all thought they had a good shot at it.

And now with a four, like you said, there's a little bit more room to maneuver and to get far and to make the final four final three, your case. It seems like everyone in the six almost kind of thought that this six they would have avenues out of. Discover the magic of BetMGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck. Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them throughout your experience to feel like you're actually at the casino. The excitement doesn't stop there. With over 3,000 games to choose from including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz and more.

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Wanda, what do you think about all this? I think I kind of I worry for our buddy Mitch. This is a Mitch Dan podcast. But again, like I see I see some other people that are making real plays for this end game. But I'm also, I felt like, and I don't wanna read too far into the, like the next time on Survivor stuff, but I thought I saw Camilla saying something to the effect of like,

her best shot to win is not sitting next to Kyle. Did I hear something like that? And in that case, then I start thinking this way, what if Joe goes out next somehow, some way? Then Joe's out of it, Kyle's the biggest threat. They don't want Kyle in, and then you get a final three with Eva, Camilla, and Mitch. So, you know, I think that's the scenario

where it's like, all right, I'd love the scenario when we see Joe, Camilla and Kyle at the end. Cause I think that's going to be a brawl. I think it's going to be, I think everyone's going to have these, these cases to be made. But, um, yeah, I, as far as the season is concerned, we've watched this kind of predictable season. But now, again, with this strong five or however, with this strong amount of people, strong six, strong six. Yeah, with a strong six, it's like, man,

we really we really can't predict the winner, although like Twitter is saying it's like Kyle or Joe, and that's what I'm thinking. Like, there is there's a world where a lot of these people make moves. I think the Boston was saying is Eva last night. That I think you heard Shaheen say it. I don't know how much credit Eva is getting for a game on the island versus what people are seeing. I don't think people are looking at Eva as a player that

really has been driving anything as opposed to a player that was able to, and here's, I say this all the time, choosing a good alliance person is literally the hardest part of the game. But if you do, you can see between the Kyle and Camilla, Eva and Joe, how much power you can have if you decide to stay honest, choose information, and you have those four people,

you're thinking the same thing, and they're all confident. It's kind of a tough thing to beat when there's so little people in so little time. What do you think the jury is more mad at, Joe or Eva? Probably Joe, but in the same vein, people respect Joe more. Okay, but is there not a case for Eva that like her game this whole season has been?

I think Eva's case is slim. I think it's possible. What I really think is gonna happen, and I'll call my shot a little bit here, is I think Kyle and Camilla, both of their angles that Eva and Joe are not only going to be kind of looked at unfavorably by the jury, but also I think you would want to go to the end with both of them because they could split votes. Whereas if Kyle and Camilla go to the end together against just a Joe or just a Eva, they might split votes against that singular

other person who would then have their number one on the jury talking them up. So I think Kyle and Camilla are probably, and we've seen them sort of hint at it, but kind of at the mutual agreement that maybe they go make fire against each other. And the winner is going to be set up pretty nicely against potentially a Joe and an Eva or a Mitch. And then the loser out of, you know, respecting the other person beat them in fire, is going to go to the jury and unload all of this information about the game that they played, the secret alliance that they had, all the moves that they made and set that person up for a victory. That's kind of my prediction on what's going to happen. I think from what we've seen, I feel more likely that it's going

to be Kyle that emerges victorious. But I also think we've seen a lot of Camilla. So there's also a very good chance, you know, Camilla could win fire and have the same, you know, have a very similar case. And I think that's sort of the dilemma they've been going through. But I think basically all the decisions, when you analyze them, it boils down to Kyle and sort of Camilla's calculus of how's the jury going to view Joe and Eva? Because if you think that you can beat them in this way, then everything I've done makes a ton of sense. But if you don't think you can beat them, and they feel like they do have to make a move and take them out, then their gameplay so far actually looks a lot worse. But I'm in the mindset that they've done this analysis, they feel like they do have to make a move and take them out, then their game play so far actually looks a lot worse. But I'm in the mindset that they've done this analysis.

They feel like one of them can beat Joe and Eva, and then this is the best way to do it. And I think that is really smart. So the question I have is, in Kyle and Camilla's mind, do they look at Joe as a threat even? Maybe Eva, maybe Mitch, right? But Joe, they were on the beach with Joe, outsmarted Joe, got Joe to vote out Shaheen

when he was voting with Mitch, right? You know, like, so like literally they have two bona fide moves. Remember when Dee at final tribal council was like, yeah, we made this move. She said, no, Austin, I did this, right? So when you have that knowledge over and you break that out, you'll be able to display that.

That shows a mastery understanding what's happening in the game and understanding the flow and what's happening on the beach as opposed to, I have the power, people are going to do what I say because I'm immune or I have the numbers. It's a different level of nuance that I think is more palatable to especially a new age jury as opposed to like Joe where I think would be a runaway favorite like JT level against Stephen back in the day. I think it's the perfect. Yes. Inflects in a new era where as a JT with a

one back then, I think fish back with a one in a new era. And a JT would have won back then, I think fishback would have won in a new era. And I think that's what we're gonna come down to where you have a JT versus a fishback type of, how do you respect one's game? Exactly. I think that's a great summation of the game because- You're agreeing with Jack, you're agreeing with James.

Yeah, of course, of course. I think, going back to what I said, I think that they've come to this conclusion that either a, they can beat Joe and Eva, especially if those are two are at the end together. Also, you know, the factor of, if you do blindside Joe or Eva, then their bitterness might actually make it harder for you to win. So if they're, if they're committed to this, one of us goes and beats Joe or Eva, um, then what James said is correct.

It's like, we now need to make them, in their case, look as bad as possible. And how do you do that? You work with them, but you make moves on the side or manipulate Joe so that when he's at final tribal council, we all know Joe's going to be like, I played honorably in integrity and I only made a move if someone was coming after me, whatever. Kyle can then be like, oh, well well when you voted out David when you voted out Shaheen they were actually loyalty but I put the seed planted the seeds and manipulated that you so that you would vote them out so you weren't being you

were being you were being on honorable in your mind but it's because you were confused and you didn't know what was going on and so that as a a jury member, I would be like, that's because the jury members probably going to be, jury's probably going to be bitter towards Joe in that, like David's going to be bitter towards Joe. And if David's like, Oh, Kyle manipulated him into doing that, like that's pretty impressive. Um, but then also it might, it might mend David's heart to be like, well, Kyle manipulated you. So like, I think that's almost playing with fire a little.

That is a very good point. That's a very good point. But then they might kind of turn on Kyle. But my question is, again, I'm with you, Jack, of the mindset that I Camilla Camilla and Kyle are very smart. And I think that the edit is not showing us these conversations that they're having, that I really feel like they see the read on the jury. Because even in last night's episode,

when I was in Boston talking to a lot of people, I'm like, I'm confused as to why they're trying to pitch for Shaheen to go because don't you want Joe or Eva? And the consensus that I got is that like, they've read the room, They wanna go to the end with the Joe and the Eva. Like that's who you wanna go. But then my question is, if you're a Camilla, and I only am saying Camilla because I feel like we talk about Kyle so much because he has been, he's had more agency,

he has more connections, but I'm rooting for Kyle, I'm rooting for Camilla. But like, for Camilla, do you think she's ever going to turn to Kyle or look at Kyle and be like, I need to get rid of him to win my game? Because I feel like that's I'm not hearing enough people debate about what Camilla's end game is. But I think she has come to the conclusion that both strategically and probably also just in terms of her agency in the game, the best time to do that is just going to be at the final four and

try to take them out on fire. I think that's her best move. I think she's accepted that. And Bryce, I think you made a really good point with what you said at the start of that bit. I think partly why the season has been so boring is I think a lot of these players have done their analysis, have a really good understanding of the dynamics. And probably five votes ago, we're like, this is my ideal endgame. And they've all kind of came to that conclusion. And there wasn't a lot of, there wasn't really a state of flux. It was just the bottom players scramming to try to stay in. But I don't really think any of the dilemmas that they ever really showed us were that legitimate. And I feel like I probably talked about five episodes ago, this is what we have to do.

And that's gonna be, that's the driving narrative of the season. So it's hard to be like, and if Joe and Eva and Shaheen or Mitch are kind of lining up with that, then there's not really much intrigue, but it's really good gameplay from Kyle and Camilla. So I have a question, Wendell, right? We talk about Ghost Island,

we talk about you, Dom and Laurel, and Kyle and Camilla, right? We talk about Ghost Island. We talk about you, Dom and Laurel and Kyle and Camilla, right? Them getting to the end, say you were, say you're Camilla and Dom is Kyle and you're on the season and it's a Joe and a Eva. Are you willing to backstab Kyle to get to the end or like, what would you do in this predicament? Wait, say who is who? You are Camilla, Dom is Kyle, and then there's a Joe and Eva in the mix. So y'all on 48. Yeah.

But y'all have the relationship that you and Dom have, right, like, are you willing to make that move for the million dollars or are you like, how is this going to play out? If we're at the stage we are and I'm Camilla, you got to, you got to make the move for a million dollars. You're in Camilla's shoes. First of all, Kyle will own that last. Right?

That's Kyle's move. He looks stronger than you. So you do want to... I don't know. You're kind of confusing me by putting the Wendell and Dom in this scenario because. There's parallels though. Well, I know I'm just saying like how I'm just saying like, am I just being Camilla or is it like you put. Oh, because like I would. So I mean it's a question, but I was.

Jack, fix it up for me. Jack, that's the question up for me. So you're not Wendell in this instance, you're and I mean, I guess he's asking you a I'm Camilla. Yeah, because it's it's a semi similar situation where it's like, OK, you're in this duo. You might have to stab them in the back if you want a chance to win. But you also there's there might be repercussions of doing that. So if you're Camilla in this situation, and I'll add to Bryce's question is, are you willing

to stab Kyle in the back? And if so, given the context of the season, my question is, when's the right time to do that? I mean, I think I have my answer, but I think it's a very valid thing to discuss. I think I like your answer where it's like, all right, I'm gonna have to get you in fire. In my case, in my, okay, now I can compare to go silent. Dom and I looked at each other like, if we take each other out too early, the other one of us, we're sitting ducks, they're gonna get us. So we will go as far as we can together, protecting each other against everybody.

And very fortunately, we had this peripheral alliance with like, you know, well, Laurel was right with us, but we had Donathan and even, you know, everyone was kind of cool with us. And it was- You only need four. Huh? You only need four, like, you only need four.

If you have four players with relationships, you have so much information. Yeah. And then we had like the people on the outskirts are kind of like talking to other people and the information gets to us anyway. So in this case, you got Joe and Eva, you had Shaheen, you got Mitch, you got Kyle and Camilla, and you don't, yeah. It's so, it's like- I got a better question. Wait Bryce, I got an answer for you, Bryce.

Before you ask this question, I got an answer. So, season 48, get rid of Kyle and Camilla. It's Dom and Wendell. And there's a Joe and an Eva. And like they don't know you and Dom are working together. But y'all had a relationship that y'all have, right? Basically Kyle and Camilla's though. Well, right, but like you gotta make him understand.

So it's Dom and Wendell out there. But instead of Ghost Island, right, but like, we've got to make him understand. So it's Dom and Wendell out there, but instead of Ghost Island, right, you have this other power dominant force and they don't know that you guys are working. And so I guess my question to you is like, in the relationship that you have with Dom, as we're going into this final episode, are you like a jack and it's like,

let me leave it up to fire, or are you like, let me see what I can do with a Mitch? No, I'm not. Okay. So you got a Mitch. My point to that, because I think it's a very valid question, Bryce. But to me, I think Camilla is both willing and ready to make a move. But at five, it's like, how does that move ever really happen? Like, I think-

I can tell you. Well, I think a Mitch would be open, but I don't think Joe and Eva would vote out Kyle. I mean, do we- Why not? Because in their mind, they've been locked in with Kyle from the jump. Who has all the information, Camilla, right?

Did you see the editor this episode? Camilla can honestly say- We didn't see that this episode. Joe and Eva went with what Kyle said to do. Yeah, but Joe was processing. I hear where James is going right now because information is- Make sure it is king. Camilla has all of it, even back to the flip on Thomas.

So here's the situation. The question is, is no one's taking Mitch to the end, right? We don't- I disagree. Well, okay, I see where you're going and I want you to finish, but my other part of this thing was even if Camilla makes a move on Kyle this round, I think Camilla would be next.

I think David and, I'm sorry, I think Joe and Eva, I think Joe and Eva would then take Mitch to the end and try to take Camilla out at four. So only one person can take someone to the end, right? So if Joe wins, he takes Eva, right? Eva wins, she takes Joe. Is that what we're saying, right? So then what are Camilla's paths to the end outside of fire?

You have to make fire against Mitch. Mitch. Mitch. Or Mitch wins and takes her. So like that's kind of, so either way her path is kind of finite no matter who is there. Meaning if Kyle goes, she depends on Mitch. If Mitch goes, she depends on Kyle.

You know like. So no, this is a valid point. But. You're right. Because if Camilla went balls to the walls to make a move at five, really put a stamp on her resume of I took out Kyle, then she still probably has to make fire at four, but she's going to probably have to know. But if she takes out Joe, I think everybody thinks it ends.

Wait, but this is completely different conversation. Right. You just moved the variables. Very true. My bad. I apologize for that. I just should end. Wait, but this is completely different conversation. Right, you just moved the variables. Yeah. Oh, very true, my bad. I apologize for that. I just got thinking. That's also an interesting thought.

Like that's also a very interesting circumstance. But I was just, to Bryce's question of like the Camilla and Kyle thing. I know you, I think you guys changed my mind a little bit of what I think it's going to be really difficult to do and probably not worth the risk. But she could make a big swing at Kyle at five and then make fire against whoever at four. And then she's top dog. She doesn't because if she beats Kyle on fire, well, emblematically eating Kyle on fire, fire still sort of makes her the top. She sort of absorbs Kyle's powers. But maybe

it's almost like do people, does the jury value the move at five against Kyle, like an actual strategic move more, or do they value like the spectacle of taking him out in fire? I think it's both would be symbolic, right? Like I think that, like I think one, I think they're both equal, but in this whole conversation, it made me think of, cause again, I'm still on my baby boy, Mitch. And it's like, what can Mitch do? Right? Even though all, even though y'all say he can't win. Right. That's not what I'm saying. But if, if, and this goes back to my question that I was asking you maybe four episodes again, Jack, like if you know, maybe you can't win, is there any merit of doing what you can do to get as far as you can, right? And so I feel like if I'm Mitch

and the big move that Mitch wants to make, I feel like he needs to get, and this is just me speaking from a Mitch perspective, you need to get rid of a Kyle or Camilla. If you can sow doubt in Joe's mind and sway that and get yourself into a fire making position. I think that that is the best thing given the pieces of the puzzle that Mitch can do right now.

I mean, I guess Mitch's ideal end is probably with Joe and Eva and hope that the jury's bitter enough that they might vote for him. I don't think that's gonna happen. And I- But that's the path though. Why not? It's the path. Why not? Why not? I think if the jury was that bitter

that they won't vote for Joe, then I think they would vote for Ethan. But again, a different part of the point. You said you don't want no beefs. It feels like you are like. Who am I beefing with? Cause I feel like Mitch has a story. I feel like with Camilla and Kyle

or when Camilla and Shaheen or Shaheen and all of them were talking they were like They don't want to sit at the end with Mitch. But my other thing is well that was a while back and this isn't this is a beauty to Mitch because I think I Think 99% of time look if Mitchell I'm hoping Mitch wins I love me but realistically 99% of the time he's not going to and he probably would agree with this analysis of his position and it's not even to say that and this is a conversation I had with Mitch a few episodes ago of like he's you know a lot of ways wants to make a move but the circumstances in a

lot of ways weren't like conducive to that but you also talk about this circumstance for Mitch to get to the end with this group and maybe he wins with that group but I'm also like at final five how does Mitch ever go about getting Joe and Eva to flip on Kyle? That's not going to happen. Like Mitch doesn't even have their information about their duo to even sow any seeds. Like it's, it's, um, I, I, I love Mitch and I want him to, to succeed. If he won, I'd be thrilled. But I just realistically doesn't seem like that's gonna happen. I don't feel like this is any sort of beef

because I think Mitch would agree with these points. It's not that he's not trying to make a move. It's just the circumstances aren't allowing him the opportunities to do so. So let's talk about the circumstances. Let's just pin that right there and go back to the great Sandra when she won her season. Here's what sometimes happens.

You have a power alliance, right? And then you have people at the bottom. You have someone on the bottom that's saying, we need to do this. And people at the bottom aren't listening to that person. And people are top of control in the game. So Mitch had one opportunity to make a move, the save-o, right?

But outside of that, and it's the power structure that you just fall into, like you literally get to the beach and after that double split, you have this big alliance, right, of the strong people, right? So from a tactile standpoint, some times you have to say, you know, we didn't have the opportunity to actually do that outside that one move where he actually had actual power.

Sandra didn't have power, but she was there telling them the whole time, XYZ, and that was rewarded. What we haven't seen with this season has been those intimate conversations that we used to get to understand a little bit more about the relationships and what's happening to cause people to do certain things. Like we're getting the the inciting incident, ooh, Shaina's an idol. Like if you're Joe, okay, we're going to the Final Four, what does that matter?

Like, so you're not getting some of these things that are kind of making these decisions happen. And I think that is the avenue to which a Camilla or Mitch, where they say Mitch wins the last two immunities, it was immunity, votes out Joe, wins immunity again, takes Camilla to fire, even takes out Kyle in a fight. Like there's a path to the end. Chris won, got back in the game and started making stuff happen.

Mitch was a big physical component in the pre-merge, right? You know, a lot of his pre-merges are on the jury. They don't have any will to only his then connect with. So I think, you know, in piling around with the bottom, you're allowed to build those relationships. Sam talked about this. When you're at the bottom, you're allowed to build relationships

that you can't build when you're on the top. It's kind of like, can you be friends with your boss? Like when you see your boss in the club, are you going to say, yo, let's go take a shot? Or when you see your coworker in the club, are you going to say, let's go take a shot? Right, so how do you build those authentic relationships? We're at the bottom, quote unquote.

You can build those relationships. You can know things like, Gabriel knew about everybody's family at final tribal council, that bitch may have taken stock in. That maybe Joe and Eva maybe did not, you know? And that's kind of where I see a possibility for Mitch win, especially if Joe and Eva feel like he's a goat

to kind of take to the end. But they're gonna put him in fire anyway. I think you make a lot of valid points about that position in general. I think some of these key things haven't applied to Mitch's game this season, which is my cause for concern. Obviously, I mean, James, you always for better or for worse, you always keep the mindset of like getting the end pitching your story like anyone can win.

Obviously on your season, like Gabler winning, I would probably feel the same. I'd be like, if Gabler won, like anything's possible. But I do think statistically, like just thinking about how this will shake out 99% of the time, I think it's gonna be really hard for Mitch to win. And I think, I love that you brought up the Sandra example,

but I think the key difference between that, and I also think of like a Jake O'Kane 45 is Sandra and Jake were opinionated and throwing out ideas that weren't getting much traction, but people knew that they were trying to make moves and throwing out ideas that at the time didn't seem like the right move, but you look back and be like,

Jake and Sandra had some real game chops. We probably should have gone with what they said. With Mitch, I think his fatal flaw was just falling too much in line with this group, which I don't really blame him for because this group, I think, brought him in a lot better. You look at, and he was with Kyle and Camilla in the pre-merge, but then Kyle and Camilla linked up with Joe and Shaheen and then created their own thing. That's why Mitch was, I think, left on the outs

and he didn't really bear witness to that bond blossoming. And then Mitch had like no relationship with the other people on the bottom, like Say or like Mary or Star. Like, and not to say, you know, if Mitch, maybe Mitch could have worked more on developing those relationships and made a move, but it just didn't seem like those clicked. And so I understand why Mitch kind of stuck with

this group and maybe talked himself into being more optimistic about his standing with them than he was. But we never really saw Mitch be like, we need to take Joe out or we need to take Kyle and Camilla out. And so at that point, then you lose that sort of Sandra or Jake element. And even a Jake, I mean, got no votes against Dee and Austin because Jake's was, had good strategic chops. But again, if you don't make those things happen, it's sort of hard to lead that case. I know I rambled a little bit there,

but that's kind of how I feel about Mitch. I mean, having talked to Mitch, I know he was like looking for opportunities to move and shake more than he was able to. I just don't think the circumstances lined up for him where he ever had like a good number one to like the people he was close with at the merge all kind of went out against his will. And then you're sort of left with

like, okay, all these other people have really close relationships, like how do I fit in? And that's a really hard position to be in to ever go with through not really through any all of Mitch's own. People were together in the pre-merge more than they were with him. That were like really tight and running the game. There are very few things that you can be certain of in life. But you can always be sure the sun will rise each morning.

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Well, that's mostly what we were talking about. I thought we were calling the audible. Like I didn't know we were even going to that. Well, I mean, I feel like this was a part of the episode. Yeah, the biggest thing was Kyle's kind of dilemma and his stance on Joe and Eva. The biggest thing, I think, was the Kyle and Camilla move of the deception

of Shaheen to Joe. And I want to talk about this because. Yeah, yeah. I do too, continue. Where did this resonate with? Where did it resonate from? And. Wait, what?

You had it for a second. Where did this move originate from? Bang. Right. So part one of the question and then part two of the question is, does this move, in my opinion, kind of signifies, Jack, what we've been saying that Kyle and Camilla have to have a read on this jury to that they want to dismantle this and get rid of a Shaheen because one would think,

well, if Joe won immunity, then we got to, we got the numbers to do with Eva. So part one, where did this originate from? The move of like the idol, the whole like, because I think that this was a big- I don't think they fear Joe and Eva. Like I think it's kind of like, I don't fear Joe and Eva and I don't fear Mitch.

It relates to everything we just discussed. Sorry, Dan, yeah. It's almost like they're viewing, I don't know what, I don't know how to describe this. If you are in a machine and you're controlling the machine, but it's like you're in this like, in this like, it's like a, like a transformer, right? You got these two people that are like the minds

behind these other two people that are the machine making things happen. And these, these minds are just like, yo, we about to make a move and our machine is gonna make it happen. And from my perspective, it's interesting that the machine doesn't know what's going on. You know what I'm saying?

And so come Final Tribal, and you got a bunch of people on the journey that don't know what's going on. They may or may not see things, but come final tribal, I think there, there's a potential for a lot of mic drop moments and a lot of like epiphany moments and a lot of like gotcha moments. So once, once the, the mind behind this machine starts telling the machine what they've had this machine doing this whole time. So exactly. Yeah. I think it's and I almost venture to say it might be interesting if you have a Joe sitting at the end and then you start getting these mic drops from a Kyle

or Camilla. I think that might fluster Joe a little bit. I'm interested to see how he responds to that. Definitely. Can we talk about the moment in the episode that... Whoa, whoa, I don't even know what's happening right now. That's the britches, the britches bussin' out of their scenes. The moment that got the britches wet for me this episode was when Joe was in a fluster, okay?

Joe didn't know if he was coming or going. He didn't know who planted the seed and when he was. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, why do you even know what that means, James? Like that's a side conversation. You said coming and going and planting the seed. Joe didn't know what was happening. And when Joe went to Camilla and was like,

did Kyle mention anything to you? And Camilla was like, yeah. He told me he's, I said, oh, like how well have we ever seen an alliance or a duo this strong at the end, like the fact that they still don't know that they are one and two. Can I tag in? Whoa.

Whoa, my bad. I've been watching too many WWE highlights, but I think this is the thing where they're taking, like Joe is a very straightforward player, right? But also I don't know if Joe is like a survivor strategist to the high level of strategically. And I made up the word in the sense of he's a person that has a lot of power.

And what I think people may hold against him is that you're immune and if I'm saying I'm Shaheen, I think that's the one thing jurors do take and we're playing together. If something comes up, like you're afraid to bring it to me for somebody else is a scared ish type gameplay, especially when you've been playing a very dominating game. You had the necklace on, it's time for you to kind of

assert your will and your dominance. And if Shaheen is your guy, which I don't know where he was in the pecking order, like Kyle, I think somehow surpassed him. But if someone comes up to me and says, yo, Carla has X, Y, Z, right? If Carla is my person or Cass is my person, I'ma somehow subtly talk to that person.

I'm not gonna kind of, his beat around the bass with Shaheen was sitting down like, hey, so what's going on? Try to get to the bottom of it. That's not direct enough. You have to be subtle, but that was like literally too subtle to someone who didn't even know that you,

especially when you've been paranoid during votes and now you're paranoid with the mutiny necklace. No, you didn't have the mutiny necklace, Camilla did. But it's just kind of just like, you're this paranoid person and you're coming to your ally. And if he's your ally, be like, hey, you know, like, did you find anything? If so, it's cool.

Like, I mean, we're going to the Final Four. And then you, Jay, just say, I don't got anything. And then you're like, okay, now Kyle and Camilla are on your radar. But if you don't go to Shaheen with that, Shaheen is gonna sit back, hear all this stuff and say, you're not playing Survivor. Why are you getting my million dollars?

And you hear it today when Shaheen was talking to Ibiza, he wasn't worried about Eva. And he wasn't worried about Eva, he's definitely not worried about Jeff. So I think that's the one thing kind of that hurts players where I don't think they realize is that you can go back and confirm information and when you don't confirm information with your allies it's hard for you to ask them to give you a million dollars when you didn't give them a heads up about getting out

the game forget bitter juror and all this other stuff it's like no we're playing the game together I mean I get it but you can do a better job of informing me what's going on especially if you want me to give you a million dollars. That's jury management. Cause you don't want your number one going to the jury. We may have seen this recently. And hearing all the other stuff you say behind them. And then now you think you got to go to find a tribal

and you don't. We don't know that ever happened, but it may happen recently. That's why I thought the whole, I guess what we call our preamble, the first half hour of this episode was so important because it sets the stage for Kyle and Camilla's decision making this episode in like the last several episodes. Is that once you have formed this opinion of Joe and Eva that you do want to go to the

end with them, then this makes all these moves make a lot of sense. But of course, if you think that they need to take out Joe and Eva, or that they want to take out Joe and Eva, then this doesn't make any sense at all. But I think that it does make sense. And this is one of the prime examples of them, like, kind of making a move where at final tribal council, they could like drag down Joe's game. Shaheen, who now who thought he was Joe's number one, now goes to the jury thinking that Joe just like betrayed him for no reason. And then if Joe is like, Oh, well, they told me you had an idol and showing is gonna be like, Well, I didn't. So you're wrong. So I'm

going to vote for them because they tricked you. It's kind of what I think Shaheen would do on the jury similar to like a David or other players. And that's why it's so like brilliant from Kyle and Camilla. I do think it was smarter than to bring in the idle factor because hopefully that would help Joe not go to them and not go to Shaheen. I think that was a mistake though. Well, so the mistake I thought, the only mistake I thought,

I didn't think the idle thing was a mistake. The mistake that I thought it could have done slightly differently. I actually think it makes more sense if they say that Shaheen showed it to both of them at the same time, because then not only can you corroborate each other's stories and be like, oh, well, we were both at the... You could have details that you figure out corroborate the story.

But also, I was concerned that Joe would believe Kyle, but not believe Camilla and just be like, oh, Kyle, Camilla is lying to you. She's trying to make a move. And then Kyle would either have to be like, oh, no, Camilla's lying to you. Like she's trying to make a move. And then Kyle would either have to be like, oh no, no, Camilla's definitely telling the truth. Like I trust Camilla fully. Or he'd have to be like, oh, you right. Like maybe Camilla is lying. So.

I thought that that kind of gave Camilla an out though. If she needed to pull a move on Kyle, like I thought that that left the door open for Camilla to be like, that's what Kyle told me. I'm not like, you know what I mean? He did, and the moves to open. But the story was that Camilla, that Shaheen told Camilla who told Kyle.

So now Camilla is the one that this hinges on. Kyle has the out because if Shaheen says, no, that never happened, Kyle could be like, well, Camilla told me that he did, so Camilla's lying. The question is why do they believe it? And why do they believe it is because who planted the seed that Camilla and Shaheen were a secret little duo? Like this has been percolating in the majority of lines.

But don't you think it makes more sense if they say Shaheen showed both of us and they could kind of confirm what you did? Well, yeah, no. But then that also would be, then Shaheen could be like, they're lying and then. But then it's two against one. Whereas, I don't know.

It's four versus two voting wise though. I think I'll even believe that. I think this was the way you drip the information to him. It's like, you subtly get it here and then he's like, all right, now let me triangulate this resource as opposed to two people kind of running up on you like, yeah, we saw that. Now it's like, hey, yo, Camilla said that he showed her the idol. They're going for you, bro.

And now he can do his research. He can check with Camilla. Got it. He could check what Shaheen tried to strong arm him or whatever. Got it. But I think this was a much smoother play than the two of them trying to go with the one, two punch. I really do.

And it worked. Well, I think it was very strong regardless. This was, that was a very small nitpick that I think, I mean, it was excellent either way. But I do stand by the fact that I think there was the biggest problem with this, potential problem with this plan is that Joe could think Kyle's telling me the truth,

but Camilla is lying to me and he's not like uber close with Camilla. So I think that would be like, at that point it's like, do I trust Camilla or do I trust Shaheen? If Kyle and Camilla both come to you. This is where the editors mess us up sometimes because we have not seen one really Joe Camilla conversation and I'm pretty have not seen one really Joe Camilla conversation and I'm pretty sure there's been a Joe Camilla conversation. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's kind of like, she is like,

she's literally voted with them every single time. Remember also Joe and Joe Shaheen and who was Tom, right? Who was the guy that moved out of the beach? Everybody loved him. He was real sarcastic, Thomas, right? They were on that beach together, right? And they took Camilla under their wing, right? Like there is a lot of things that we didn't see

where it's like, if she wasn't talking to Kyle, who was she talking to? Which is a bump on the lock. I feel like Camilla was building those relationships with the Shaheen and with the Joe while she wasn't talking to? Which is a bump on the lock. I feel like Camilla was building their relationships with the Shaheen and with the Joe while she wasn't talking to Kyle. So all I meant to say was that in this, the way they went about it and it obviously worked out.

So there's obviously probably more things at play than we know, but at this way, Joe could look at it like either Camilla is lying or Shaheen's lying. He was very close with Shaheen. So I think there's a reason that he could be skeptical. And then that puts Kyle in a really awkward position because he does the vouch for Camilla

like overly aggressively and be like, no, I trust Camilla. Whereas if Kyle and Camilla are both like, hey, he pulled us out, he wants to make a movie, showed us the idol. I think Joe would immediately be like, oh, two of my people that I'm close with are telling me this, I trust it 100%.

But here's where I, I'm sorry, I'm about to last time we shut up for a little bit. But no, no, it's like, I feel like there's something we're missing, right? Because in the day Shaheen having a, isn't it really enough for Joe and Camilla to flip? Like, I don't know what else is there, but like that can't be the thing that makes them want to flip.

This is something that I thought a lot about that I want to now, I think that's a great segue to introduce. And I'm very excited to throw this at you guys. I think there's an element from Joe and Eva, maybe more so Joe, of a willful ignorance of we, maybe in the back of Joe's mind, he thinks it might benefit them to take out Shaheen, but Joe's so honorable that, I'm not gonna spring that up. Oh, but if Kyle and Camilla give me a reason to,

I could be like accidentally tricked, take out Shaheen, and I don't know any better, right? Because what's their alternative is to take out Mitch? Like Joe in the back was mine knows Shaheen is probably more of a threat to win than Mitch. And so by just kind of going along with this plan, it kind of gives Joe an out. And now I don't know if that out is going to play with the jury. But in Joe's mind right now, I think in the game, it does give him an out. And also, I'm thinking about if say Joe pushes back on this and just say Joe is all seeing and knows that Kyle and Camilla are lying to him. Well, now in Joe's mind, Kyle,

Camilla and Mitch are working together. So what's your counter move? Like then you'd have to play the idol. Then you'd have to like really go all in with Shaheen and go three versus three Maybe you go to rocks. Maybe you whatever so for Joe It's like well if I just go along with this plan and it's Shaheen Then we take out Shaheen now even I are still in and we have an idol at five Like we'll probably be okay. We've just taken out there I don't even know if these are things that Joe was consciously thinking of but I really think that he was sort of Intentionally willfully ignorant and I think that was actually good for his game somewhat.

I do want to shoot Joe some bail because we did hear him talk about how, yo, they could be lying to me. This so like, and I'm glad that the editors kept that in there. I'm very glad for that reason. And because he's not just he's not just a full buffoon that listens to everything, but also this willful blindness argument you have is kind of smooth and that could also kind of

jive well with a jury if they bring up this, we use you to do this and this and get out your own ally. Maybe he comes back with the the well, check this out. I wanted him out. My whole thing is honor integrity. So yeah, you guys pitched it. We were both aligned in that like I wanted him for this reason. Y'all want him for this reason.

So yeah, I needed a lot of y'all handed y'all handed it to me. The problem is I don't think Joe would look at it from that angle, but I totally agree out anyway. Y'all handed it to me. The problem is I don't think Joe would look at it from that angle, but I totally agree with you. I think he would be like, I never turned on someone unless they turn on me. Kyle would be like, well, Shaheen didn't turn on you. I tricked you. And then Shaheen would be like, damn, Joe, you got tricked.

And then Joe's gonna get flustered instead of. Exactly. Yeah. I totally agree with you. The other, like, Wendell, let's give, I will say Joe could just say this. He was number one and I didn't want to sit next to him because I played decade of a game.

And if he comes at it like that and said, hey, everybody, it's like, it's kind of like you have, he has to come in and I think he's straightforward and he can come in very cocky and not cocky but confident and say, hey, Eve was the number one. You saw me give her a hug on the mat. I protected her this whole entire time.

I was standing right here. I had the one immunity. Y'all were coming at me and I won immunity. Oh, did I play the most strategic game in the world? No, but did I have to? And the times didn't need to get voted out. I mean, I didn't get voted out. Now give me the money, honestly, we don't,

but like don't, Final Tribal is so, so, with communicating how you played your game, how people viewed your game. Because people want to view this game as a bully game, as a Boston Rob X, a softer trust game. I know about the trust game, trust. How often they talk about trust in tribal council? So now, if you're gonna play that game,

Joe needs to follow through. And if he follows through, I think he can beat almost anybody. But I don't know if he has that follow through. That's what I'm worried about for Joe, right? Because it's weird because it's like you're saying honor and integrity and we get it. However, it's like I'm watching Boston Robb. Like, you know, like you don't want people talking, you don't want people moving.

And stand on that. I am worried that he'll get to the end. And although I love Haboke and Mike. I was gonna say the same thing. You know when Mike got to the end and Mike didn't like, Mike kind of like. You gotta own it. Like, and that's, and I'm worried for Joe because it's like, and it's weird because it's like,

does he know? Like he has to know he has this power. But also like Joe's like, I'm a good guy. Like I love everybody, but also it's like, we love good guys. Like, but sometimes you got crack the whip, crack it. You gotta throw that punch. You gotta throw that punch.

Right. You gotta put it on the table. You gotta pull it out. Just put it on the table sometimes. We're gonna see it at Primal Council, Joe. I love the Mike Turner comparison. I've seen people online talking about that. It's a great comparison because Joe has to own this game.

And I think you guys all hit it on. Like, I don't I don't think he's going to hit it on the head. Like, I don't I don't think he's going to I don't think he's going to be able to. And this is kind of why I feel like we've seen glimpses lately of him not quite having a strategic acumen, being a little bit flustered, where the big giveaway in that sense for me was like last week when he was like,

basically like, so can I write one of your guys' names down? Cause Mary's dope for me. That was wild. That was wild. He doesn't, he's not as dialed in as he needs to be to navigate how hard the jury's going to be coming at him. Can I ask a question? Yeah.

Everyone, welcome to the Survivor News Integrity Academy. And you guys are all in school to be first officers. I need your help because we are rolling out some training developments. And I need to know if, because you guys are gonna be first officers out there in the world of, you know, you're in the academy, you're cadets. We're in the chapter of interrogation.

Would we or should we use Joe and Shaheen's, Joe's method of interrogation with Shaheen? Do you think that should be played in the Survivor News School manual? I think it was funny. I do wanna see the transcript because I feel like it was one of those things where if you're Shaheen, you have no,

of course you're gonna, it was so not comforting. It was like, hey. What is going on? He was like, he talked to him like he was my dad. I get it, Shaheen is a grown man. I met Shaheen, he's a super grown man. It was like, Joe went over there and tried to sell him and chump them.

And some people watched my wallet. Yeah, listen, Joe let us know that he was biracial early in the season, but baby, Joe was a black father. He sat down on that bed and said, hey, I'm missing five5 out of my wallet. You got anything to do with it? Shahid's like, what? I don't got your $5.

Joe is like, I'ma find out. All right, hey, I'ma find out, okay? Like, I don't got your money. You know, it's his little sister that took the money. Exactly. Well, that's the, okay. That's the thing. I love this question, Bryce. With the Joe school of inter,

I don't actually mind the interrogation method of basically being like, you got something to tell me? That was horrible. That was, no, no. You can't talk to a grown man like that, yo. You can't talk to me like a grown man like that. It could have been smoother, but the idea behind it, I don't mind.

The problem is, going in, knowing that Shaheen could be telling the truth or he could be lying. And then when Shaheen's like, no, I was like, I think we're I thought we were good. Like, I thought we're cool. So then we like, we're like, oh, we're like, oh, now I know he's lying. I was like, that's how he would act too if he's telling the truth.

So the conclusion of it. This is what Joe did. Wendell, last time I was at your house, I left $100. I know you did. I know you wouldn't have just took in $100 at the barbecue, but if you did, it's okay if you just sent me that cash ad back. Like that's what Joe basically did. Windows like, why are you even talking to me?

If I came to Windows, like yo man, let's start your house. I left this, left my watch there, my Richard Millie, on the counter, you know, I mean, I don't think you took it and all, but you know. I don't mind him being- You're at the barbecue. Right, why you coming to me? Leslie, I don't mind him feeling it.

I know it was a little bit maybe condescending to Shaheen, but just the idea behind it of, okay, he might have an idol. I don't want to put all my cards on the table. Let me feel it out. But you're putting all your cards on the table. Well, not quite, no, because putting all the cards on the table would have been, okay, Shaheen reacts in a way that he might react if he's telling the truth.

He might react if he's lying. You don't really know. So then because you don't know, if I were Joe, I'd probably be like, look, Shaheen, like, I heard this news that this is what they told me. Is that true? And then if it's true, he probably owns up to it because he knows he's screwed. And if he's like, hell no, that's not true. And then if it's true, he probably owns up to it because he knows he's screwed. And if he's like, hell no, that's not true. Then Joe can be like, okay, well, y'all go figure it out. Like someone's, well, Joe was in a precarious spot.

And he just chose to accept the people that came and lied to him. Where, you know, and again, I think the willful ignorance is fine because if say Joe messed around and sat Shaheen down next to Kyle and Camilla, I was like, all right, what's going on? That might- That's what should have happened. That's the thing. That's the thing.

That's what's going on. That might be funny. I could bounce back on Joe. So that's why you gotta be willful. You could sit at tribal council. Maybe, but if I was Shaheen Kyle. Is this not gonna bounce back on, could the way he did it and with Shaheen,

I don't know if that's still counts, what's going on? It could with the jury, but I think that's the thing, I don't mind him just kind of accepting Kyle and Camilla's lie as the truth and the government. But yes, he didn't handle Shaheen great, but interrogation-wise, sometimes you gotta feel someone out, but obviously he felt him out, didn't really learn anything,

and then he was like, Shaheen's lying. Now here's the question. Here's the question I just had in my head. This is random. What if Joe wanted to vote Shaheen out, and he wanted to see if Joe and Shaheen had idols? I think, I don't know if that's what we've been told, right, but that would be something if he's, if you have the plan to vote Shaheen out, right,

and Shaheen as Idol, but the backup vote is missed anyway, so why does it matter? Like, I don't understand why if Shaheen and Idol even matters. Like, I don't understand, I just, I'm failing to- Well, the lie about Shaheen having the idol was to make sure Joe couldn't just go to him, compare notes, because he would have to have-

But why? Shaheen's not the target. Like, unless Shaheen was the target, right? It wouldn't have made sense, right? In this plan, Shaheen is the target. They don't want Joe to go to Shaheen and say that he heard this, because if Shaheen has an idol, then that could ruin the blind side.

But then you don't tell, but the blind side was after they told them. So it's kind of just like- They didn't tell them. No, no, no, I'm talking about, it's Kyle Camilla tell Joe, Shaheen has an idol, right? Now, if Joe was thinking that Shaheen has an idol, right? And he's trying to vote him out,

maybe Joe was trying to vote out Shaheen before that, it didn't get his information. Now he's spooked to vote out Shaheen before that, and then he gets his information. Now he's spooked to make sure Shaheen does have an idol. Like I don't see, but any other reason, it doesn't matter. Cause if Mrs. DeVoe, Shaheen has an idol. It does matter. It does. If Kyle and Camilla want to make sure

Joe doesn't go back to Shaheen, the best way to say we need to keep this on the low low is to say he has an idol. We can't talk to him about it. Hear me out. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead, James.

No, no, hear me out. I think it's from a pure numbers standpoint, right? And let's say once you get to five, you have three. Eva's immune because she has an idol. Shaheen has an idol. And now if you're Joe, this is the best thing ever. My two allies both have idols at five. I'm making money when we have four.

And if not, I have two people voting with me at three. So I feel like I don't see the idol being this end all be all for Joe. Integrity Alliance and how is Shaheen and Joe supposed to go from Joe is learning of this that he showed it to Camilla and Camilla showed it to Kyle. Like that's gonna spook him. That's the beauty of the plan.

Exactly, that's the beauty of the plan. Cause James, if you're Joe and that doesn't happen, then you're like, oh Shaheen and Aeva have idols? I'm set, I can vote out Mitch Fallon Camilla. It's not the plan if he's playing it on you. It's the plan that like, this is who you close with. The idols, the mousetrap that got Joe. And Camilla told Kyle, and now it's dripping back to you,

and you the head honcho. But this is the two-a-verse two of Camilla and Kyle don't have anything. Like I don't- That's why the plate is good for Silent Camilla. Hey, they're not listening. I am listening. I'm just saying, right, if you're Joe,

you have Mitch already, right, for the most part, right? But now Joe feels betrayed. Yes, now Joe feels like he can't trust you. You might not have Mitch. I think Mitch is more with Kyle and Camilla. Okay. This is now- No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

You're changing my mind here. You're changing my mind here. So if Mitch is a guaranteed anti-Joe vote, you changed my mind, but I don't know if that's the case. But, but, but it's- You know I got nothing to do with that. Obviously for Joe, things could be different, but the Kyle and Camilla talking about the idol

is to get Joe to not trust Shaheen. Because you're saying Joe could be like, oh, well my ally Shaheen has an idol, but now Joe's like, well, my ally Shaheen did not tell me about the idol that he had. So I gotta get out. There's one more vote left. But it doesn't matter.

I'm just hoping he's gonna hold it and we just begin to agree or disagree. I'm just like, if we go into the end with Shaheen But it doesn't matter. I thought you were holding something that's subduing. We can agree or disagree. I'm just like, if we go into the end with Shaheem, it doesn't actually matter. Like, if Joe's my... But say Wendell's my number one, and then James and Bryce come to me and say

that Wendell has an idol that he told you about and didn't tell me about, then I'm like, maybe Wendell's not my number one anymore. And now Shane is saying... But he already has number one in Eva. Like, I get everything else you're saying. I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't matter for Joe.

Like I don't- You're right. Yeah, but like Jen said- There's no way that we're not gonna be getting on that same level either. There is something else that we're missing. That's all I gotta say. Like there's no way to out for tribal,

you have a tight alliance, you're voting somebody out and someone comes up to you and say, oh, this person showed me an idol and it is an automatic click. Like there's some other stuff. Are you an integrity and alliance? That's probably why Joe Paul is maybe one of Shaheen anyway.

Well, let's be clear. The best part of the idol was after Joe integrated Shaheen and Shaheen went around to every, integrated, I mean, when Joe. It's an interrogation with integrity. Interrogation. But you're interrogating him. Because it's the integrity line.

Right, right, that was a play on words, duh. That was on purpose. Again, if Joe really is this black dad that clearly we see, it's the fact that Shaheen went around to all of his siblings and we got to see him talking to Kyle. We got to see him talking to Camilla. We got to see him talking to Eva like, yo, dad on some,

he said, I can't watch TV after 10. What the hell? Like that scene, again, I didn't like to see Shaheen like that, but like seeing it as a family dynamic, that was funny as, ay-ay-ay. He was working the room to try to plant his seeds, but he was the mark and his bed was already made. Kyle and Camilla, they gotta go down in history

because for them to be a part of the circle to get Joe into this and then to get Joe into the Shaheen Mart and then it worked. And now Shaheen is coming back to them and they got to listen to Shaheen talk about a Joe like that. That's a beautiful plan. That's a beautiful plan. Like that was like very interesting to see. Although as a viewer, I wish it wasn't on Shaheen, right? Like I wish it was on like taking down the integrity alliance. But again, like not really knowing what Kyle and Camilla know.

And after this episode, really in my mind, they know they have to have a read on the jury because to make a move like this only signifies that. And it's like they want to go head to head with them because they feel like they know they've got what it takes. Well, that's the thing. Kyle Camillo's gameplay has been like so clinical that it's just kind of boring, but it's like really incredible gameplay.

And I think whichever one of them wins, honestly could, I think go down as the best winner of the new era and like a really quality winner because that's the kind of complex game you have to play in the new era. So I think it's really impressive. And I do, I agree with the Shaheen sentiment. I think even just looking at him with his stash,

he looks devious. And I knew Shaheen had that gamer in him. And I don't even think this was a bad time for that gamer to come alive because I think it was a very valid angle and if Joe doesn't win immunity, then maybe something different happens. And it was really fun watching Shaheen scheme this episode.

And I wish we had seen more of that earlier, but I understand why we didn't. Would you agree that maybe a part of Shaheen's and some of the other people's downfall is that like they put all their eggs in one basket. Like they did not diversify their portfolio enough. Somewhat, but I think Shaheen of everybody else in this cast was probably playing the most similar and quality game to a Kyle.

But I just don't think we saw it to that extent because, you know, Shaheen went out in sixth place. But Shaheen didn't, the problem is Shaheen didn't have that number one like Kyle did that would add a little bit more to his game. The diversifying of the portfolio. That's one of those things, it's like. But no, I think that it is, but it isn't like,

I think what is the best part of Kyle's game is that he has his number one and his portfolio is diversified. So that's like, that's literally what I'm saying. I think Shaheen was working on that in a way that we didn't see as much because it didn't come to fruition. But it seemed like Shaheen had had relationships with Camilla as well, had a relationship with Mitch, with Star, with Mitch. So I think Shaheen was working at the same angle that Kyle did, but I think sometimes-

This is not diversified enough of his- Well, I think he was doing kind of the best of the hand he was dealt. Like Kyle, Noah, instantly clicked, Joe and Eva instantly clicked. Shaheen didn't have that- Why is it Mitch doing the best of what he's done? Wonder why?

Because Shaheen has a good team. He didn't have that. Why is it Mitch who won the best of what he got? Wanna know why? Because Shaheen has a good team. He didn't have an all startup. He had a good team, but he didn't have that superstar. That Camilla's a superstar. He had his number two. Camilla's a superstar. Camilla's like, Kyle, they're about to vote you out. Let's figure this thing out.

It was more so Kyle was like, I'm playing my idol, so I'm getting away, but let's get them out. Let's figure out how to do this thing, right? When you have a number two like that in this game, where they're strategic, and y'all both gonna have these talks, it literally, yeah. But sometimes, Bryce, I get what you're saying. Sometimes you're responsible for achieving that yourself,

but a lot of that is luck. Like, are you put on the same beach as someone who you instantly connect with? And I think Shaheen didn't quite have that. Or if he did, it was maybe a Thomas, who he had really no control over, Thomas going home. Whereas Joe and Eva and Kyle and Camilla

were able to just bond like that, you know? I love Shaheen, but I just feel like this whole season, Shaheen has been in a majority. Yeah, but I think at six in his mind, you know, he takes the shot at Joe and Eva and maybe he miscalculated, but if it works, then he's not in a bad, he doesn't have bad like winter equity.

Like, uh, you need your shots with, I think that's what Bryce is getting at. It's like, like you said, like, all right, so Mitch came down, Mitch and Shaheen both had the same kind of fate, even though Shaheen proceeded to play the better game.

You get to the point to make a move when you get down to these numbers, but you don't have the people to make a move. So part of- That's the miscalculation, but I think it's very, very reasonable for Shaheen to think, okay, once we get to six, Kyle and Camilla and Mitch will be willing to make a move

on Joe and Eva just based on his calculus of the game. I think that's, and we don't even know that they weren't, if Joe hadn't won immunity. Mitch will be willing to make a move on Joe and Eva just based on his calculus of the game. I think that's, we don't even know that they weren't if Joe hadn't won immunity. So sometimes you just have to set yourself up to take a big swing and that swing might not always work, but I don't think it was like the wrong swing. Like I think in standard survivor in Shaheen's shoes, you would be like in Shaheen and in Mitch's shoes, you would be like Kyle and Camilla probably want to take out Joe and Eva, maybe at six, we can split the vote, whatever. But it just turns out in this season that Kyle and Camilla are kind of looking at it on a different level. And if that is

the right way or wrong way to look at it, like we'll find out. But I don't think just in like the standard strategy of survivor that that Shaheen had a bad idea. Like if he could take out Joe at six and then like Kyle at five and Camilla at four, then Shaheen probably wins the game. So if you can lie, you're probably going to get hit. And that same process, that wouldn't work for Mitch? No, because we didn't maybe see it. How many individual immunity challenges has Mitch won?

One to zero, like zero or one. Individual immunity? How many did Shaheen win? One, right? Zero, one? That was a word. I'm not talking about you. I'm just looking at the resume.

Look at Shaheen's position in this game. Shaheen has been in that core alliance much more than Mitch has the whole time. And I also think Shaheen has had better that core alliance much more than Mitch has the whole time. And I also think Shaheen has had better relationships with the outliers than Mitch ever had. So I don't think that's a hot take to say that Shaheen has had more agency and social connections in the game than Mitch has.

But- Again, I guess what I'm getting at is that then it's like, well, who's still in the game? Agree, but like, but no, no, but like if you're Shaheen. I'm just I'm just saying like, again, I think that they're just playing different games. And again, I definitely agree. That's why I'm not talking about it, but I feel like it's like I think for Shaheen, given his situation, he's like, OK, if I can get to six, here's a series of events that has an okay chance of happening. Maybe, maybe this plan works out 25% of the time where we can take out like Joe, Kyle and Eva. And

then Shaheen is not in a bad spot. And like, you're never going to have a plan that's going to work 100% of the time, but you got to know when to take your shot. It's not always going to hit, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right shot. I think, I don't, what are you saying Shaheen should have done? I don't like- I'm not saying anything about what Shaheen should have done. I'm just saying like, I feel like devil's advocate. I could take the same thing as to what you're saying with Mitch at this position and apply it.

But it- That is similarly true. Like Mitch should have had the same mindset as Shaheen with this move. I don't think we quite saw that from Mitch. But then if you want to compare Mitch and Shaheen, I think it's different scenarios. But who was more entrenched in their core alliance? Mitch or Shaheen Shaheen, who had better relationships with like the people on the outskirts?

I feel like it was Shaheen. So how can you have? But I also feel like does the jury sometimes look at somebody save they got to the end? Mitch has been at this point fighting from the bottom, from the beginning. So for him to still be up in there and again, Bob just, yeah.

I mean, maybe. I get what you're saying, but I just don't think that's super right. And I get what you're saying about Shaheen. So like, I mean. All I'm looking at is like, what are the most, like if you run the season, like the way I look at like good survivor play, if you run the, sorry, sorry, Wando, if you run the season

10,000 times, whose sort of plans are going to work out at the highest frequency? And I think that this works out for Shaheen more than Mitch's tactics right now would work out for Mitch. But obviously Mitch could win, but I think Shaheen with this route would win more often. And you're saying who's still in the game, but I think there's situations where someone could go out pre-merge and still have like played a more win friendly game than someone who makes it to the final three. Like you know, it's just the path and decisions you make.

They all come with risk and sometimes you're going to go out early, but that doesn't mean you didn't have the right mindset. I mean, Shaheen played a good game, he could have won. Bryce is funny, yo. Bryce is doing the sarcastic uncle, the sarcastic uncle and not the overbearing dad. Like that's the click out of Bryce's sarcastic uncle. Like, oh yeah, that's what you think, all right, cool.

What about the, like, I like it. I was just asking, what, Shaheen live on the West Coast? Correct. California boys. Okay, okay. You know I gotta look out for my California boys. But I stand by all these things. I see, I see.

I love Shaheen and I love Mitch, so this isn't a knock or a either. I think we're analyzing their games separately. I didn't wanna draw draw Shahid Mitch comparison But just because you go home doesn't mean you didn't have like a good plan But the good plan doesn't always work out. There's other good plans that were better than shakey It's but he doesn't always know that Very very true. This is a fun one. I think there was there's a lot of nuances especially and Camilla's strategy. And so it was great having James come help to break it down.

I think we see their circumstances very similarly. I think it was really fun to discuss. James's lighting has changed. It's getting seductive now. Hey man, stuff to do tonight. You know what I'm saying? Okay, he got the red light special right now. Get me out of here. He about to spread some seeds. Whoa, maybe some.

So before we close this out, do this move was no Operation Italy, but do we feel like this move by Kyle and Camilla was enough saison seasoning in the pot for us to have a mucho grande feast? I say yeah and no, only because end of the day, it's kind of like, I feel like Joe's number one was Eva. And, you know, I think Joe looks at anybody

at that third seed, even as a win, should be told. Like I don't think he looks at anybody as like competition and winning. I mean, maybe slightly, but I think he's confidently thinks that he's played the best game in his mind. He may have, and he may have been playing, and he has played the best game maybe, to some people's opinion.

So I feel like when you're in that position, you had, I think this is the one a few times, except for probably Mitch, where you heard everybody at the end was not afraid to sit next to anybody. Like you may optimize your chances. What's the point of optimizing when you still think you can win?

And that's the kind of, I feel like I like that confident gameplay and like when I see players, instead of I'm gonna shrink to the moment. I'm gonna get bigger for the moment. Like I'm ready for this. I'm playing my game and I wanna talk my game at the end. And whether you win or not is what it is.

But it's better than that than say, oh, I wanna take out people because I didn't do anything all game. Like nah, so I like the season. All right, winner picks. Camilla. I think I'm going with Kyle. Only just because of his agency.

I wanna go with Camilla, but I think Kyle is more the face. I got Kyle. But I'm rooting for everybody, Guyanese. Yeah, I mean, if Camilla takes out Kyle too and wins, it would also be an awesome story. So I think those are the two most likely scenarios, and I give Joe or Eva maybe 10%.

So what if just, all right, before we go, what if next episode, Eva comes around and is like, listen, Joe rubbed me the wrong way with how he did Shaheen. Like, we gotta get him out. And they vote Joe out. Is that enough to change? Do you think that would be to change your minds? Would that be a winning move?

For Eva? Mm-hmm. I mean, there's a lot of big ifs that you just threw out. Well, I mean, but okay, go with the big ifs. Um. For no. Well, it's hard to say,

because it's so, I think that's so unlikely and so like Antithetical like against everything that she's done so far in the game That would be hard to even like imagine her doing that and then going to during be like yeah stab Joe But if that happened then maybe it's like it would give her that Maryann angle But I don't know if she's gonna do that. I mean, her best angle is saying, hey guys, I used Joe to get to the end. Thank you for not voting us out.

And you're mad at my gameplay, but I'm here with all this stuff and you couldn't have voted me out. Yeah, her best angle is- I don't think she had that in her representation. Her ideal should be to like idle out Kyle or Camilla at five, take out, and maybe she plays an idle on Joe at five or something. And then it's like, and then it can be like,

I protected you Joe, like you would have gone home without me and then take out whoever's left of Kyle or Camilla at four and then go against Joe and Mitch. And maybe people are bitter enough at Joe, but like Eva enough for being a straight shooter and overcoming the obstacles that she's overcome where they would be like, let's give it to Eva. I guess we'll we got a couple of days to figure out to see what happens.

I guess we can all find a speaker under New York and watch it together. Yeah. You know, Jack loves to speak our finale. Well, thank you so much, James, Wendell, and Jack. This has been your Survivor News covering Survivor Season 48, Episode 12. We'll be back next week with the outcome of Season 48. See you next week. Bye. It's the purple pants. It's the purple pants. It's the purple pants podcast. You better get your

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