RHAP: We Know Survivor - Rob and Mike Talk The Christy Blindside | Survivor Time Trip

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

Rob and Mike Talk The Christy Blindside | Survivor Time Trip You can watch this podcast on YouTube! Survivor time travel meets old-school strategy as Rob Cesternino and Mike Bloom reunite for a deep dive into Survivor: The Amazon on a special Time Trip episode. In this candid conversation, Rob and Mike break down one of the most game-changing moves from Survivor’s sixth season—the flip that cemented Rob’s reputation as reality TV’s original swing vote. As they revisit the dramatic family visit episode, the discussion swings between nostalgia, regret, and the wild evolution of Survivor gameplay. From the fallout of Rob’s betrayal at final seven to his infamous “lone wolf” confessional, Rob walks Mike through his mindset, misreads, and behind-the-scenes stories—including why nobody wanted to end up in the Amazon’s dangerous waters and how that iconic Speedo came to be. Listeners get a firsthand account of the shifting alliances and last-minute deals, the struggle for social capital after blowing up alliances, and what it took to survive when everyone is mad at you. Plus, the pair reflect on Christy’s groundbreaking—but under-edited—journey as Survivor’s first deaf contestant, and debate what would happen if Rob had made a different move at the final six. – Rob’s pivotal flip at final seven and the fallout with Jenna, Heidi, and Alex – How the wine-fueled family visit changed camp dynamics and future plans – Christy’s unique Survivor experience and the challenge of navigating alliances as a social outsider – The strategic calculus behind blindsides and managing emotions at Tribal Council – Rob’s reflections on innovation and risk-taking in Survivor’s early years This episode unpacks whether Survivor’s early chaos really set the tone for the fluid, cutthroat gameplay of modern seasons. Does flipping back and forth break your game or make you a legend? Will history remember Rob’s move as a teaching moment—or simply as old-school chaos? Tune in for confessions, regrets, and Survivor lore straight from the source! Chapters: 0:00 Survivor: The Amazon Time Trip Begins 1:02 Revisiting Alex’s Blindside and Fallout 4:18 Breaking Down the Final Six Shift 10:11 Becoming a Survivor Lone Wolf 12:12 The Crazy Flipping Plan Revealed 18:37 Christy’s Underrated Survivor Story 22:05 The Iconic Family Visit Challenge 29:13 Rob’s Mom Headlines Loved Ones Visit 39:29 The Night of Survivor Wine Party 44:12 Attempting to Reconcile with Jenna, Heidi 51:07 How the Christy Boot Plan Formed 56:06 Orchestrating Last-Minute Tribal Council Shift 1:00:46 Pioneering Fluid Gameplay on Survivor 1:03:43 Jenna Gives Immunity Necklace to Heidi 1:09:52 Christy’s Shocking Jury Vote Explained 1:15:04 Rob’s Perspective on Innovative Moves To order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

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Download the Vinted app for free and start listing. With no seller fees, you keep every dollar you earn, and for a limited time, enjoy free shipping in the U.S. on Vinted. Hey, everybody. What's going on? Rob Sestrinino, back here for another Survivor time trip. And today I'm taking Mike back with me to go back to Survivor the Amazon and a time when we all were full bloom. So give it up for the man who will fit right in.

Give it up for Mike Bloom. Yeah, I mean, I forgot that you had that budgie smuggler going on after a pretty raucous night of wine drinking. Yeah, I mean, you are the guest this week, Rob. As RuPaul would say, we are keeping it in the family. Very appropriate for the family visit episode of Survivor. Family Visit episode. This is episode number 11, canonically,

episode 12 on Paramount Plus, because I include the recap episode for some reason. Sour grapes is what they called it. the final six where Christy Smith gets voted out. Very sad. Yeah, I mean, it's a very sad situation. Obviously, she's going to let that sadness show in the final words. But I mean, when you so heartily volunteered to be the subject of one of these time trip episodes, I really had to go to this episode first and foremost, because listen, I'll certainly get your thoughts about the move that happened before this, which is, of course, you flipping on Jenna Heidi and Alex to vote Alex out.

But I do think in the annals of Survivor history, this is a move that I think is game-changing in a number of ways that maybe doesn't get talked about in today's modern-day parlance. But I think it was certainly a big move made at the time. And I think cemented you as one of the early games biggest flippers considering that, you know, the fall of the row two four, they'd flipped over and they stuck around. but you were sort of, you know, bipping and bopping around, like a bit of a pinball. And so I'm excited to get your thoughts on all of this and your entire methodology. Excited to talk about it. Have we ever gotten to talk, Survivor the Amazon? We have not.

And can I just say that, listen, I am eternally grateful for the working relationship and friendship we have cultivated for the better part of over a decade. But there is a 2003 part of me deep down inside the recesses of my heart that is jumping up and down with joy that I get to talk to Rob Sesternino about Survivor the Amazon and the move he made at the Final Six. I never thought this would have happened in many ways. So now I get to interview you and have you talk about one of the most seismic games of the first handful of seasons of the show. Sure, but what's your origin story, Mike? How did you get into Survivor? What was your, I don't know if I know this. So I am not a day oneer. I guess I'm like a day 42er in that the first episode I watched was

the Joel Kluge boot from Survivor Borneo. It was one of those things, and you've recounted this a number of times, including in your bestselling book about how there was just such a big word of mouth around Survivor, especially in the first handful of episodes. And at the time, no Paramount Plus, not even a CBS inner tube to watch these episodes.

And so you just kind of had to jump on and kind of piece things together through context clues. So my very first access point to Survivor was, you know, the Marines coming in and Rudy eating dog food and Joel Kluf were getting voted out because of a comment that Jervis made. And you were hooked.

I mean, I would say that more so it was the next week, which is the merge boot, which is an episode that, spoiler alert, hopefully we'll talk about at some point in this entire process that really got me hooked.

But I was absolutely captivated from the beginning. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're two weeks after me. So I will always have that over you, I've been watching some of it

for two more weeks than you. Hold that over my head as much as you can. Yes. Okay. So, yeah, let's go back. I've had, you know, watch this episode. About a year ago, I talked about it when it was on Pluto TV. And I did it then.

And, you know, so it is kind of top of mind. I watch it again today to talk about it here with you today. So we can go into whatever is, wherever you want to go. Oh, my God. But I guess let me set the stage. of this is the final six that there was a big swing that happened at the final seven where I was working

with Alex and Jenna and Heidi Alex had told me that if we got to the final four he was going to I don't remember if he said that that Jenna and Heidi weren't going to vote with each other and so he was just going to then also cast a vote for me and I was like I don't like that and so I voted out Alex Yeah, so I actually want to start with that, you know, before we even get into the final six, because so much of this is predicated on what happened in the final seven, because I did rewatch that episode as well. And what Alex told you basically was, well, we know the girls won't vote for each other. And so if I win immunity, I'm going to vote for you and I expect you to do the same. So I'm curious from your perspective, was that like the thing to really ignite you to make that flip? Or was this more of a premeditated move for you?

I was really in tight with Alex and Jenna and Heidi. And I really, you know, just to go back to the mindset of 24-year-old me, I thought that Alex was just like the coolest guy that I ever met. There was like a lot of like hero worship on my part of like looking up to Alex that he lived in L.A. I just thought that he was like the greatest guy ever. I couldn't believe that this was my friend. And especially when we were on the guys camp. And then I felt like he started to get a little, like, girl crazy when we got to the, when we switched.

And then he really was like head over heels for Shauna. And that was a whole thing. And then we voted Shauna out and thought that, okay, he'll be back to normal. But he then, you know, I know I have the reputation of like, oh, I was blinded by what the women were doing. And I did talk about the women a lot, but it wasn't necessarily like that I was courting the women in Survivor the Amazon. But he did get very close with like Jenna and Heidi. And it did seem like, you know, at times I guess I felt like that with them, and those were the people I was the closest with after Dina was gone. I really had to throw all in with them.

And based off of, if we went back an episode earlier, I kind of had less options after Dino went out. And I said, okay, well, now I'm all in with Alex and Jen and Heidi, but I really did feel like fourth out of four in that group. And I didn't really see a way around anything there. And I just was like looking at the other people that are out there. And it's like, well, nobody's really talking to Butch and Matt and to Christy. And like, what if I was with them and I would be their king? Well, the king is perhaps not getting the best reception from those he,

abandoned in his wake here. So let's get into the start of this episode where there is some fallout to say the least. As you mentioned, not only was Alex burned, but Jenna and Heidi were in the process. When you do a little bit of damage control, obviously this is going to be a whole three days worth

of at least attempted damage control. You say in the moment, though, coming back to camp, like Alex was lying to me about a bunch of things. Did you ever bring up in the course of trying to make go with Jen and Heidi, like what Alex had told you, hey, he said he wanted to get rid of me at Final Four? I don't remember if I did or not.

I think that they were not in a place that they really wanted to hear, like a, like, okay, here's the, like, play by play of what happened. I betrayed them. They were very angry and upset with me. And I think they just wanted to, you know, really, you know, give me the what for after that. I don't think they really wanted to have like a logical, like, back and forth of like, but why did you do this move? Did your reaction, their reaction, surprise you at all?

Because, I mean, Heidi, I don't know if she cries or if she's just really emotional at one point, but clearly in the immediate wake of this that they are quite in their feels. Right. I had a bad read on, you know, Jenna in particular, but also Heidi, that, I guess I, you know, had a hard time of thinking about, like, I guess this was a struggle for me as a player to predict what other people would do because I only could see things through my own way, how I would handle it. And I think if I was in that situation, I think I would try to play it off as, hey, like, it's cool. Don't worry. Like, we're still working together, right?

And I thought that they would, that's how they would take it. and I thought that they would, I guess, mistakenly, I thought that they were like, hey, well, I don't, like, they'll fight each other. They both don't want to be the next to go. I, wrongly, very wrongly, did not think that they would just double down on their position of like, hey, we hate you.

Well, I guess what was your tactic then? When you were making the move knowing, okay, I'm going to try to make it up to them, get back in their good graces. And how did that compare to what you actually did, upon perhaps being a bit surprised by their reaction. Well, I think in a way it kind of helped me that they really chewed me out. And so I think I was able to get like a little sympathy from Butch and Matt and Christy.

And so it really did help make it feel like I was like taking the brunt of it for them. So I think in a way, while I did not enjoy that, I think it did ultimately help me. And again, it was not calculated on my part, but I think that that's what ended up happening. There's going to be a confessional of you later on in the midst of this entire brouhaha when you say that you're a lone wolf, you're a mercenary, you're a free agent perhaps to quote Ozzy. Was that the attitude you were walking into this episode with? Though, after you would flip, was your attitude, okay, I'm going to write it out to the final four with Butch, Matt, and Christy? I think that that was my thought there.

But I think then once you start flipping, I think it's like very addictive. and you'll see in this episode when I go to Jenna with talking about, hey, I'm like, hey, I have another plan. I had a plan that was going to be even crazier that I wanted to do. And ultimately, like, that's really what I started thinking about. Like, yeah, who cares? And then I'll flip back to them. The only issue was that Jenna and Heidi didn't really want to play ball with me anymore. But I had, like, you know, three more flips that I wanted to do.

Talk to me more about that. Do you remember the playbook you had mapped out for yourself? Yes. I really started to think about it. And it's really after there's going to be the family reward in this episode. And Mateo is going to win the reward. And then he gives up his reward so that we all got to see our loved ones. And everybody's very excited.

Oh, wow, Matt's the greatest guy. I can't believe he did that. And that, you know, my 24-year-old broken brain is like, well, now we can't go to the end with Matthew. Now people like him too much. And so- You call him at one point The patron saint of reward challenge

Yeah, why does he so great? So now I don't know if I can beat Matthew in the end But nobody likes Jenna So again, wrong, wrongly But she's also going to go on to win challenges Like at that time, this was Nobody liked day 30, Jenna. So I was thinking

My thought was, okay, what if Okay, we vote out Heidi next I believe. So at the final seven, or this is the final six, if we vote out Heidi, and then after Heidi is gone, now it's just Jenna. And I was always more afraid of Heidi. Again, wrongly, I was always more afraid of Heidi than Jenna, who's the ultimate winner of the season, goes on wins four immunity challenges. But I was always where, I thought Heidi was the danger. But I said, okay, well, vote out Jenna.

And I didn't give Jenna the blow by blow of it because I didn't want to, I thought, Well, she can't expose me if I don't tell her what the plan is. But I say to her, like, hey, I have a plan for us. And I thought that she'd be like, okay, goody, let's work together. And she still was like, she wanted to spit in my face more than she wanted to potentially go to it. And she wins. So, like, how can I say that this was bad? But it didn't work out that way.

I don't know if that was necessarily the, you know, the plan. Anyway, my thought was vote out Heidi at six. And then after that, then I think then, then I said, okay, and then when it's the final five of me, Butch, Matt, Christy, and Jenna, what if we vote out Matt at five? And then, and then we vote out Butch at four. And then it would be, like, I would flip from, you know, I would flip from Matt and Bush to go with Jenna and Heidi, or to go with Jenna and Christy who did not like each other at all. and I thought that Heidi was the one

who could really kind of patch things up. Like, you never see Jenna talk to Christy in this episode. It's Heidi who's doing like the negotiating and Jenna is kind of like with her arms folded like next to Christy. So Jen and Chrissy were never going to be on the same page. But I kind of thought like, well, if I could get to the final three with Jenna and Christy,

then I'll go to the end. And neither of them is going to take the other one. They're both going to take me. So my thought was, well, Heidi, vote out Matt, vote out Butch, final three with Jenna and Christy. I mean, I don't know who on the jury's voting for me at that point. Yeah, considering that you would have, you know, burned Heidi and then would have burned Matt after,

even this episode, he shows how locked in he was with you. Yeah, but again, this was the idea I came up with. And I was like, why not? This is fun. Well, I think also, there probably must have been a bit of a mental factor as well for you. And we talked with Penner last week. Can I imagine he thought a little bit about this as well when he flips at the merge of Cook Islands

where it's a little bit like, listen, these people kind of hate me, you know, I know that maybe making this the great equalizer and making everyone kind of hate me by flipping back and forth, maybe all these negatives will equal a positive at the end of the day where I'm not just absolutely offending one group, but kind of being an equal opportunity offender with my gameplay.

Yeah, I guess I thought if I got to the end and I could say that I did all these things and if I sat there with Jenna, I just thought that, okay, well, maybe Heidi and Alex were going to vote for Jenna in the final two, maybe Dave, but I thought, like, what if I could, like, pick up the other people? Like, I felt like Christy still won't vote for Jenna.

Like, Butch and Matt still won't vote for Jenna. Like, I felt like that I still, like, could maybe, I had as good of a chance as anything. You mentioned Christy, who obviously is going to be the subject of this episode in more ways than one. I'm curious about your relationship with her at this point because there is a brief scene when you're going to try to check in with her. You know, she affirms her loyalty to the new four. But it should be noted, the two of you did not play together until you hit the merge, which is only, you know, a week prior to this.

So what was your dynamic like at this point? I thought that I always had a good relationship with Christy. I felt like I had a pretty good relationship with everybody. And I think that a lot of the times with Christy that she had had a bad experience with the women early, on. She really, Dina was her person. And then ultimately, I think she gets left out of the Dina vote on the blind side. And now, so really nobody's talking to her. Even, like, Butch and Matt didn't really interact with her too much. And so I felt like that I was always friendly to her. So I thought that we had a pretty good open line of communication, especially at this point, when I go to her in the previous episode and tell her I want to vote out Alex. And she's so happy that somebody wants to vote. about Alex. And so her and I, I thought, had a really good relationship. And I wanted to work with her

in terms of what we were going to do next. But then she got very wishy-washy with me. Well, we'll get to that wishy-washy moment. But before that, we do see Jen and Heidi coming with all the hats and all of the hands to her to, you know, pitch, hey, let's get the girls back together. We'll force this three-three tie. Were you aware that any of this was going on? I imagine you were trying to keep your distance from Jenna and Heidi at this point, but did you know they were pitching themselves to Christy? I'm trying to remember what's, it's hard for me to distinguish between what's in the episode

and what was real life, but I feel like that, yeah, I could see that they were going to her, and I think she was, like, pretty open about the fact that the girls were saying to her, hey, top three, and we were saying, like, but yeah, but Christy, you could be the last girl. You could be the last girl. You could beat them.

And then she really liked that idea. She really liked the idea of, hey, I'll go to, I'll be the last woman that's laughed, and I'll also beat Jenna and Heidi. Yeah, I believe she asks out loud at this point, is it better to have a million dollars, or is it better to be the final girl that kicked butt, or do you like the relationships that you have with mosquitoes? Yeah. So she, I think was really, it was hard to pin down, like, what her ultimate goal was.

I mean, I want to talk about Christy as well, just in general, because I do feel like in Survivor history, not to say, say she's largely forgotten, but I do think it's so interesting that modern day discourse especially, there's a lot of talk about casting people on Survivor for their stories and the editing being based around their stories.

And they may sometimes forget about the stories of someone like Christy who is death and is thrown into this game that is all about not only reading what people are saying, but whether, you know, they actually mean what they are saying, both the language that's being used and

the body language. I mean, how do you look back on her casting all the way back in season six? Yeah, you know, honestly, it really wasn't as big of a story in the season. I think as it probably should have been. I think that it was something that she was dealing with. And I don't know how much of the show she had seen beforehand. And I don't know if she, like, how much she knew of, like, what she was getting into. But I think it was probably underplayed in the show of probably how hard it was for her, especially at night when things were really dark, when she was, she wears hearing aids, but also she would read lips also.

So I think things probably were really hard for her at nighttime. and she also was somebody who, you know, I think at the first signs of that it wasn't working, I think that she also would be like, hey, screw them, you know, I don't want to be. So she was kind of like a loner also. And so I think it didn't help her socially of how she was in terms of winning the game. or getting, doing well in the game. And then also, she was with people who really didn't go out of their way to try to be inclusive to her also. So I think it was kind of a bad combo where she, I think, had like the instinct of like,

okay, you know what, screw you guys. And then also the people that were, she was playing with weren't like, no, no, no, no, no, Chrissy, come here. Come here. Come on. Like, let's, hey, let's really make sure we're, and there were a couple of people that were. but I think largely, I think people were far more worried about their own game. Yeah, I think it is interesting to, again, look back on not only the way her journey was edited, which I agree.

It gets brought up, I feel like, in the first few episodes, but you also wonder from a modern-day lens, like how much Matt Chat would be dedicated to, you know, Christy playing as this deaf woman. Obviously, we've had deaf contestants since. But, again, it is something that it's almost like when Sharla played in The Amazing Race season five, where like it is a big historical first and it has us definitely viewing Christy as a player I think in a fundamentally different way, as you mentioned. But it doesn't necessarily get underlined

or highlighted in the edit. And I imagine that was also the case in real life as well, right? You're a month in at this point. I don't know how much things have been fairly normalized to you about just the way Christy lives. Well, I think that if this was to happen in, if this was Survivor 46 instead of Survivor 6, I think that people would have maybe thought like, well, I think this is going to look bad on television.

And we don't want to vote out a person who's playing the game, who's hard of hearing, and the audience is going to be uber sympathetic to that person. I mean, in some ways, it was really, she was just treated the same as like any other person who was out there for better or for worse. I do think that the show really would have highlighted her journey, again, for better or for worse, in the way that the show is put together now in modern times, I think it really would be treated as like this really incredible, triumphant experience that she's going through. Visit BetMDMDM Casino and check out the newest exclusive, the Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and Game Sense remind you to play responsibly, 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

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With ancestry, you can search select historic historical. Occupational Records for free for a limited time and discover the stories behind the jobs in your family tree. You've got questions. We've got ancestors. Search free until August 31st. Visit ancestry.ca for details. Terms apply. All right. Well, let's get into a moment that will take you across the frigid waters of the Rio Negro. Let's talk about this reward challenge, Rob, because it's a big one. Of course, it is the family. is it a staple of the old school seasons of Survivor. The challenge itself is to,

much like Coach Wade did all these years ago, paddle your own kayak in Brazil to retrieve essentially, like what, one bag of puzzle pieces. And it was also this stages elimination. I think it was three. Okay, but there was this thing where it was, okay, you have to dig up a paddle. Right.

And the first four move on. There was eliminations. So, yeah, you had to, there was six of us left, but there were four paddles that you, to dig up. There were four boats. And if you didn't have a paddle, then you were out immediately. And then you had to row the boat. And then I'm not sure if it was one question or if there was or if there was three questions. But if you got the question wrong, the puzzle pieces in your bag were also incorrect. Like it was just like black pieces. I think it was it was edited as

only one which makes sense because you and Matt move on to the end. It seems like neither one of you had a problem with getting the puzzle pieces. Right. And then the puzzle at the end was like a baby puzzle. Yeah, I mean, quite literally, I think I have a puzzle that Asher did when he was three, that is this puzzle, just a little, little snake that gets formed. But I want to talk about maybe the main centerpiece of this challenge, which is the fact that you have this boat that you get to row. And you are not the only person to struggle with this. You know, Matt is really the only one. He's like Kelly Wigglesworth, whitewater rafting through this, no problem. Jenna's boat sinks, Christie's boat sinks.

You try to swim it at first, Stephanie LaGroza style. Then you come back and get in the boat. But talk to me about navigating this native Amazonian boat. Yeah. And it wasn't even necessarily a matter of like navigating it. I got in the boat. I got in the water. The boat like immediately sinks.

And so I started swimming to see if I could get across. I think that maybe if Jenna or Christy had already gone in the water and were already swimming and then I went out for like five feet and like, no, I should get the boat back. And then it's like, I kind of like fished the boat out of the water and then got back in the boat. But it's funny. And I know that Jeff has the narration of, hey, and if you sink your boat, you're going to have to swim, but I don't know about that. He, I don't remember if he said that in person or if it was the type of thing where it was like an ADR line that was after the season. Because all through Survivor the Amazon, at every point, every instruction to us was, whatever you do, do not get in the water.

Everything that can kill you is in the water. There's the anaconda. There's the piranha. There's the fish that wants to swim up your urethra. There's like, there's eels. There's all sorts of things that are in the water that want to kill you. And at nighttime, they'd be like, hey, whatever you do, don't go near the water. You can't go. Did I say the Cayman crocodile? The, that everything wants to kill you that's in the water. And so, and now Jenna and Christy, like, swim across this.

Now, again, there was a point when we were jumped in the water, like when Jen and Heidi stripped for chocolate and peanut butter, that was in the water. So I don't know if this was, like, a safe water situation, but I think that that also went through my mind, like, oh yeah, the water is actually very dangerous. I don't want to be in the water.

So let me go back and get back in my boat. And I was able to, like, dump the water out of the boat, and then, and, you know, do my paddling across. But Matthew was just, like, you know, built for this and was so good in the paddle and rowing the boat that, you know, he just got way ahead of me. I was happy to have a second place finish.

I was taken a bit aback. I agree by Jeff giving the warning of, like, swim at your own cost when actively he's saying it's an option. I mean, I think in retrospect, they're not going to have, you know, a full scoop in situation on their hands where, like, three quarters of the casket and medivac because they get eaten by Cayman.

It couldn't have been that dangerous, but I understand from your perspective, the fighter flight mechanic, especially again when you had been told, I mean, we'll get to this later. I imagine one of the reasons why you packed the Speedo right was to provide the necessary compartmentalization so that said your wreath were fish do not get in the area. It wasn't my choice. They told us that we had to bring that, that I got my shopping list for Survivor the Amazon. And again, things weren't as much online like they are now. And so they told you all the clothes you had to bring, bring this, bring this, bring

the raincoat, bring this, bring this, how many of the pairs of underwear, and then you need a speedo. And I'm like, I don't understand. Like, why do, why do Survivor players need a Speedo? And she's like, well, you don't, they told me, like, you don't see it on the show, but they always just have it just like as an extra set of underwear. I was like, okay. And this is like 2002 on Long Island. I'm like, what do I get a Speedo from? And I think it was maybe like one of the first online purchases I think I ever made to buy a Speedo. And then when I went to, I got all my stuff packed, I went to, they flew me to Miami. That was where we left for to go travel to South America.

And then the two women who were the handlers, they like come in my room with like a video camera. And they're like, hey, so you want to hear where you're going? I was like, uh, okay, sure. And I did have looked on like survivor news.net or whatever had it like reported where we were like, you're going to the Amazon raid virus. I'm like, oh my God. And they're like, do you want to know why you have to bring a speedo? It's like, why?

Like, because there's a fish that wants to swim up your peahole. Like, oh, good. Fantastic. Really getting in the game mindset. It's like this is like somewhere. they need, and they need to film that. Yeah, I don't know why they had to get that. Because from my memory, none of this was released.

No. A little Kia DVD that they provided with free test drives. Nothing about bursting into people's hotel rooms and, you know, spooking them half to death by talking about fish that could get into their body. They were so excited. That is, listen, whatever gets here, your jollies, I suppose. And that makes sense, they could have really just gone with the live. Like, remember when Reebok sponsored the show? Well, now Speedo sponsor again, so we just got to rep the merchandise.

anytime we can. Yeah. So that was why we needed to have that with us. Well, much like a pair of wardrobe that will get you a little close to home

in terms of your genitalia. You get a message from home. Get a presence from home here. What a segue? Yeah, thank you. In the form of love, the loved ones visit. As you mentioned,

St. Matthew was able to give up. He died for your sins, Rob, specifically. So we obviously get to see the iconic words. his ancestor, you know, get to make her survivor appearance here. So I'm curious, when you were getting into this entire process, when you were not, you know, vociferously shopping online for the right speedo, was your mom always going to be your choice of

loved one? How did she end up getting involved here as your plus one? Yeah, I mean, I think that that was always the choice. I don't know if my dad really would have been too excited to do it. My brother was, oh my, I'm eight and a half years older than my brother. So I was, you know, at this time, I'm 24, so my brother's like, like, 15. So he's not really old enough. I hadn't met or I hadn't started dating Nicole at this point. So there really wasn't any other viable option. And my mom was very excited to go.

But we did, and, you know, she had to get a passport and everything. But the way that it was presented to us was the person who wins the challenge, they were going to fly them. They were standing by. we're going to fly to the Amazon to meet us for the reward. We did not know that everybody had been there. Now, when we filmed this in November of 2002, the only loved ones visit that we had ever seen with, like, the whole cast was in Survivor Marquesis.

They did bring everybody out. But so it wasn't like, okay, I'm not buying this, that this is what they're doing. Like it certainly, I know they have a loved one visit with everybody in Survivor Thailand. We hadn't seen it. I don't even know if it had aired at that point that my mom came to visit. And so it was very viable that like, okay, somebody's going to fly here tomorrow. What was her journey to get there?

If I'm remembering correctly, I think one of the many things you talked about during the reflection on this season in TOS was that like everyone was kind of sitting by waiting to hear the person who had gotten. voted out and how much tension was in that room until finally they found out that Alex and therefore his loved one would not be moving forward. Yeah, that's the way they used to do it. And I'm not sure at what point that they've changed that up. And maybe, you know, that still like it happens to some degree where in the final set, it brought the final seven out. So I don't know at what point they started traveling. And then so the final seven was standing by in the Amazon. And they're sort of like they're not allowed to talk. It's like they're sequestered. And then at some point, tribal council happens. And then they call in on the radio and then they pull like one of the

loved ones. So like one of the loved ones is also getting voted out in Survivor of the Amazon. And so I feel very badly. Obviously, we didn't. The ultimate double duo twist before. Yes. It was even a glimmer in the eye. We didn't know this at the time. But Alex's mom ends up getting voted out. Now, at points in In Survivor in the future, we'll see, like in Ponderosa videos that they reunite with other people. But I think that even into the 30s, you know, there's still stories of people who find out that their loved one was like there also in Fiji. And they didn't get to meet up with them because they got voted out, which is a, you know, kind of a cruel way to ultimately do it. I think that from what my mom had reported, that, you know, Alex's mom really, I think, took it like a chance.

champ, but there had been some stories of like, boy, but Penny's husband or boyfriend was like really did not take it well the previous season. All right. Well, definitely, yeah, hopefully better by comparison. Maybe she got coached like, well, you don't know Penny, but don't be like her significant out there. Yeah. But then after, I think then, like once Alex's mom got removed from the group, from, again,

anecdotally, as per my mom, she said, I think then they sort of. of like lifted the sequester. I don't know, again, I don't know what changed of like, in terms of like talking about like who knows who. I think then they were allowed to then talk and engage with each other and say like who their loved ones were. And then they were able to like get to have like a relationship. Did she have any friends from this group, any ops from her own final six?

No, I think that the person that she, I think, was closest with, was ultimately Jenna's dad, Mike, who was just like a really nice guy, really great guy. You know, of course, we know about Jenna's mom. Her dad also, like, passed at a young age, which is also very sad. But he was just a really, really nice guy who I got to know outside of the game, just like a really big heart. So, yeah, he got it along with my mom. I think it was Butch's wife, Cindy.

and then there was Christy's boyfriend, there was Matt's mom, and Heidi's mom. So good news is that you do get the chance, thanks to the actions of Matt, to be able to, you know, talk with your mom. The bad news is it's only for 10 minutes. It's longer than that in real life.

Okay, I was wondering, because it does seem like an incredibly short amount of time, but you all kind of sit around this impromptu charcutory board You know, Angela Murray is dreaming of this, both Jeff Probes and the charcutory board all at once. What was the conversation you had with your mom? Do you remember between her catching you up on what's been going on at home and you, as we've seen the episode, telling her about, quote, unquote, all the bad things you've done? Yeah, so, yeah, it was like cheese and crackers and some sort of, like, white wine was what the spread was at the thing. And, you know, I'm not really a big cheese guy, but, you know, that's what's out.

So we, it was just really, it was such a tension release from when there was like the really big vote from the previous night. And I remember, I said to my mom like, hey, I'm doing really good. I don't think I'm going to win. I think I'll get to the end, but I don't think I'm going to win. And that was what I had told her at that time. And I was just trying to talk about, you know, just like, I think it was really important to me, just like putting myself back into that time frame that I really just wanted to communicate back to. my family, like, hey, like, don't worry about me. I'm doing good. I'm doing okay. Like, I'm sure that they were worried. I don't know how much communication they had with everybody, but it was really,

like, very, I used to feel like I wanted to, like, just like let them know, like, hey, I'm doing really good here. Like, like, I'm actually, like, doing good. Like, not necessarily, like, in the game or anything. Like, I'm really, like, don't worry about me. I mean, Rob, if you rewatched when the loved ones come out, We see you teary-eyed. We'd see you get reclaimed. Did that surprise you at all? I mean, not real.

I mean, it's 30 days. I'm 24 years old. You know, I don't think I would be, like, if I was on Survivor now and there was a loved one's visit, I think, you know, you're just so, you know, physically starved, but also just, like, starved for, like, connection and to be just so cut off from your loved ones.

Like, I totally get why people have that reaction when you see your loved ones. And I had never, like, you know, not talk to my parents for that long, and I just really wanted to let everybody know. I knew they were worried about me also of, like, that they did not think this was a great idea what I was doing. So it was really important for me to, like, you know, let them know that I was doing, okay. My mom also gave me some news from the outside world that the New York Jets,

I think at the time that I went to go play on Survivor, I think we're either like two and six like or something like that and then somehow the 2002 Jets like I think won like I think every single game while I was gone or like went like had gone like five and one

while I was gone so that was a big like I was really pumped up about that it pulled a Maraska right you thought it was down and out and then it ends up stringing off this series of victories It was a famous jet season 2002 of I think they were like one and four

and Herm Edwards was asked about the game, like playing the game, he's like, you play to win the game. Hello? Maybe I carried that with me into Survivor the Amazon. I mean, yeah, that's going to be talked about certainly at tribal

council. Obviously, this moment doesn't have to deal with you, but I'd be remiss if we didn't stop down and talk about Matthew and his mother. And as he calls it, a romantic evening, certainly has a different meaning especially in the wake of everything with Colby and Gail Donetson and the Pontic Aztec heard around the world. But it's a very fun moment.

Mario Landa talks about it in the funny 115 about how you sometimes wonder, as I'm sure you did out there, like looking at these people living with these people being like, where did you come from? Like, who do you love? Who do you live with? And we start to discover a little bit the relationship that Matt has with his mom. You know, he says it's not a typical mother-son relationship. She says that she talks him at home, even if he's not there. And he says, I love that.

I mean, I appreciate that. She's like, don't be formal. Yeah, am I being too formal, mother? I think he says. Yeah. So, I mean, I think Mario Lanzah compared it to, like, the Jason Voorhe's relationship. I don't know if we want to go that far. But, of course, I think the show was certainly perhaps underlining that.

Yeah, well, I think that Mario has talked quite a bit about Matthew and the machete also. So I think that there's some synergy in that comparison. But I think that, you know, Matthew was just an interesting. guy. He was, you know, not necessarily on the same show or playing the same game that so many of us were doing. I think that's sort of like the beauty of classic Survivor of it. You would never have like somebody in the midst of New School Survivor where here's somebody who, I'm not even clear if he'd ever seen the show before. Yeah. I mean, it does seem like he was very much focused on the survivalist natural size. side of things. Still to this day, he's an adventurer. He's like, you know, hiking

Mount Everest and doing still going on all sorts of adventures around the world. And for, I think it's Jenna who says, maybe the final travel council, she says this is just another adventure for Matthew. Well, much like Everest, you had your own mountain to summit in the form of getting

back in the good graces of Jenna and Heidi. But luckily, you get the ability to wine and dine them that night. So can you clarify this for me? So you had wine at the reward. Were you taking those bottles back with you? Yeah, we took the wine back with us. Yeah. All right. Talk to me about this rager here, Rob. Talk to me about getting faded with some of these kids. We got faded. So we had like the best day where everybody's like riding high and we took the we took the wine back with us. We took the cheese back with us. Like we just took it. We took everything.

And we brought back and then we were just like, hey, like, this is the bad, look at us. Look at us. We were so, you were so mad at me yesterday. I was so happy that everybody, like, had a nice family visit. And we were just, like, drinking. We were just partying. Was there any sort of antics that were going on or was it just, you know, general malarkey? I'm trying to remember.

I feel like at one version of this, and I think that maybe it has been cut, Maybe if you had like a VCR tape of the VHS tape of this, I think I also sang in this episode also. Do you have any recollection of this? No, because I mean, that would have been, you know, everything good comes in threes. And obviously we have you've lost that love and feeling in the premurge. We have no, no, no, hey, hey, goodbye in the merge.

So I did not realize there was a post-merged ditty. Again, don't call it ditty for the party that we were doing. but I was singing Bob Seeger, we've got tonight. Okay. Who needs tomorrow? Was anyone singing along or was it just a Ropsonino solo? No, it's kind of a boomer song.

It really had stuck in my mind from a young age. There was, like, at the risk of further losing any young people who might be listening to this podcast, there was an episode of Cheers where Sam and Rebecca were it was like the night before Rebecca was getting married

to Fraser No I think to Robin Cole Corr like she was marrying like a rich guy and she got and she got like really wasted and then she and then for whatever reason that song was like stuck with me

well you had tonight We got tonight, yeah. We got, you got tonight, and Butch got a lot of alcohol. Yeah, I feel bad. He really, like, I think that this was, like, kind of a bummer for him. That this, not only that this happened, but also that he, like, you know, he's a, worked in the school. So I think that this was kind of a, and I think it also bummed him out that I was, like, like, kind of, first of, some, a lot of people thought this was me. But, like, that was getting sick.

But, yeah, I think it was kind of bummer that he, that they showed this. in the episode. I think this was probably his most embarrassing moment that was on the show. He had gotten the auction, I think happens in the Dina Boot episode. No, in the Alex boot episode. Oh, the Alex. Okay, so the previous episode

is the auction. And so, Butch wins like a covered item and, or maybe you, do you, he gets breakfast, right? Yeah, so that was the, of course, the infamous moment of like, where's the best place to have breakfast? Apparently,

Butch said Cracker Barrel that ends up getting put. But he's given a bed roll instead. Yeah. And crack a barrel. And so then he has a bed and it was like, oh, this was great. But then we had to like, it had to be disposed of the bedding that butchered one. I mean, the good news is even if it remained intact, it was going up in flames in just a couple days' time anyway. Right, right.

It was a good time to burn the camp down. I mean, I think maybe that's nature's disinfectant. was they were like, you desecrated the rainforest by puking in it. We have to burn it all down. Right. So, yeah. So I think at then at a point where it's just, it's like me and Jen and Heidi. But I was just, I was so happy because I really felt like that.

Like, they hated me. Like, look at us now. And I guess wrongly, because I'll wake up the next morning with like a splitting headache where no Advil in the Amazon rainforests after you wake up with like one hell of a sharnanette. hangover. And I was not thinking fully, but I also maybe was misjudging of like, hey, me and

Jenna and Heidi are good now. And so we were not. Yeah. I mean, your entire relationship with them gets upchucked here. After you mentioned, that brief moment of reverie, because this is when, as you mentioned before, you come to Jenna and basically

you say, like, I want to go to the end with you. I can't go to the end with Matt. I figured, you know, we can get rid of Heidi next, but you're the person I want to sit next to the end, sit next to in the end. And that incenses Jenna to know. And she storms back to camp, tells Heidi, you and Heidi have this awkward conversation. And then it culminates in a flat out argument or at least maybe a dressing down of you. Ironically enough, coming from Jenna at the camp, what was going through your head as all this was going on? And Jenna was really just airing. out everything you would just hold her. Yeah, she was trying to get everybody to be upset with me. It didn't really

take for Butch or for Matt or for Christy, but they just really wanted to you know, rake me over the coals. And I think Heidi says to me, like, hey, if you keep you know, I forget what she said, if you keep like stabbing everybody in the back,

you're going to win the game. I was like, oh man. Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's the thing. thing is that they certainly get into something that especially gets talked about a lot in early game Survivor, which is Jen and Heidi talking about like, I play with morals, I play with ethics.

I would not necessarily do that. I think they specifically mentioned, like, I wouldn't stab a friend in the back. And I think that was basically the thing that was the straw that broke the camel's back in a manner of speaking because I think they feel like, yeah, it was fine when you betrayed Dave and when you portrayed Dina, but because you had

something good going on with Alex that they felt because they explicitly saw examples of you promising this guy and then that you go to the end together. This was like the first time they had really gotten burned by you and it smorted quite a lot. Yeah. I think that there was some cognitive dissonance with the Dina vote where I didn't want to vote out Dina, but that they had felt like that Dina had flipped against Alex and so that then they were getting, they were jumping Dina who was trying, who had already betrayed them. They felt like that, you know, I was in this alliance of four with them.

And so that that was kind of like the ultimate betrayal. But, you know, I think I certainly could have handled that better in the moment in terms of hearing them out. Because I think if I just would have like sat there and taken it. Like I think I could have like played that for more sympathy with Butch and Matt and Christy. And I was lucky that Butch and Matt and Christy with all due respect, bless their hearts. You know, they were not experienced players. and I think if, like, had they been, like, I think that there may have been, like, more questions asked to me. And I don't think that I am a good liar in being able to, you know, be able to give them answers.

Like, Butch asked me at one point, he's like, so what, what was that? Like, oh, I'm just making stuff up. I don't know. That's what you say. You're like, listen, they're grasping it strong. Yeah. Don't even worry about it, Butch. I mean, it seems unintentionally so.

But, like, there's a little bit of a tea party situation here going on, Rob, where, like, they just wanted to. not even get everything out in the open, as you mentioned. It wasn't necessarily created with the idea of like, let's really get him in a bad position. It just seems like they were incredibly miffed with you and you deciding to say, all right, I know I betrayed you, Jenna, but like, we can work together, right?

You and I can go to the final two. That was just the thing that sent them over the edge. I thought that that was going to be, like, again, bad read by me, but I thought that she would like that. I mean, it was like, hey, I want to go to the final two with you because I could be, I mean, look at Sandra.

Sandra is like, you know, Russell wants to go to the end with me, but I don't know about that. You know, like, I, and that hasn't happened yet, like clearly, but, you know, I, in my mind, I was like, hey, I want to take you to the final two.

I have a plan for us. I never imagine that it would be, screw you in your plan. Yeah, I mean, did the calculus change after this moment? Jenna literally tells you, like, I will make you hate your life as long as I'm out here. Yeah.

You know, my hero was always Dr. Will Kirby. And so I just watched him play. This is 2002. He had just played in 2001. I felt like that he was always like, okay, this person hates me, but they're working with me. And I just thought I was like, okay, well, like, she'll be self-interested enough to want to go with me still to the end. of like, okay, well, let me hear me out, like, hear what my plan is. She was just so mad at me that she didn't ultimately want it.

And again, good for her. She won the show. But I did think that she would, like, be thinking about the game in terms of how do I get to the end now? Well, the good news for her is at least for a little portion of time the next day, she's going to win immunity in a classic Survivor Shuffleboard. But something I forgot until I watched this episode is that, like, due to no, offense, no fault of your own, Rob. You were in line for a second immunity win in a row

for the portion of that challenge. Yes. Butch totally biffed it, like at the end of the game, that there was a point where this is really, it really is annoying to me because it was like that, not that I played this so great, but it ends up with, there's a lot of like ricocheting off of things. And I'm like basically like on the X and Heidi is in front of me, like blocking me, you know, from. And so I'm like, in a, in a, really great position. And then I think Butch still has to go and then Jenna still has to go. And then Butch comes along.

I don't even know what he's trying to do. He ends up like, he shoots his puck, knocks me off of the puck and knocks Heidi onto the X. And then Jenna comes in at the end and she knocks Heidi off the X and she ultimately gets the immunity. But really, all Butch had to do is just leave it alone. I mean, we're on the same team. The first part of this challenge also involves a Survivor Classic back in that day,

which is shooting targets, in this case, ceramic plates with a slingshot. I was very surprised that Matthew completely biffs this portion. Because, like, I believe during the Dina Boot episode, like, he candidly wins reward when it was the Amazonian weapons. But it seems like this guy is no Dennis. He's throwing it. Who knows? Who knows what he's doing?

That's true. I mean, he is going to memorably do so a few days from now. So maybe he was like, uh, being a testing the idea. He doesn't really talk about, like, what he's thinking. Well, when you get back to Kim, there's a confessional. you, maybe you didn't have that Speedo sponsorship, but you're going for that Maylock's sponsorship, because you name

drop it here about how you need a bottle of Maylocks, a fifth of vodka, and a cold carton of cigarettes. What was going through your head at this point? I do want to say that if I won the immunity challenge, I was going to give the immunity necklace to Christy. That was going to be my over, yes.

That was going to be my overture to her, and I thought that gesture of goodwill was going to get her on my side. And so that was my plan. And I don't think, again, this is like, it's Survivor 6. I think that, like, if this was modern day Survivor, I think that, you know, like, you know,

if this was Survivor 16, that would be a big mistake. But I don't think that there would have been, like, the wherewithal where then I was going to, you know, give the necklace to Christy and then she was going to, like, flip and Butch was going to flip on me, and they were all going to, like, that there was, I don't think that would have happened. I think that me giving the necklace to Christy,

I think that would have bought me goodwill that she would have voted with us. Because ultimately she did vote with us. So I think she was kind of on the fence in terms of what she went. And I think that that gesture of goodwill would have put her over the edge and we would have voted out either Jenna or Heidi.

Did she have any awareness of this? Like, did you make this known to her? Would it surprise her? No, because I don't think I had the confidence. Like I knew in my head that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to like promise it to her. and then not had done it. But I thought that that would have been the thing I could have given to her

that would have gotten her to side with us. Because it seemed like she was like, well, I don't know. So, yeah, I felt like that I was very much, like my stomach was in a knot. It was now we had a couple of hours back at camp, and I said to Christy, what are we going to do? And then she was like, yeah, I don't know. I got to see. I know when I have the pen in my hand.

Like, well, this isn't a good answer. And then I went to the producer. and I had asked them like, hey, so what happens if it's a 3-3 tie? This had not been, there was no precedent for this in my mind. They did, I mean, obviously we know that it would be a rock draw, but after everything with the purple rock and Marquesis, I think a lot of it was still unknown out there. But that was the final four.

And so that there really was no, like there had not been a tie vote prior to the final four, other than in like pre-merge Survivor Africa, where then we're going to tiebreaker questions. What had been great for you? You just won a little bit of a trivia competition when you got that bag of pieces. Jeff Farner gets voted out on previous votes, but that's not the rule anymore.

So I was like trying to ask the producers, so what, if it's three votes, if it's three-three, what happens? And they're like, you'll find out of tribal council. I'm like, you really should like tell me the rules. Like, that would be good. So I was very much, like, trying to, like, come up with my own thoughts of, like, well, how do I get out of this? And I was, like, really just, like, racking my brain.

And I was in such a corner. And I just thought about, like, oh, like, what have we voted out, Christy? And I end up, I remember, like, sort of, like, where I was. I, like, thought of it. It was like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. And I went to Jenna and Heidi. And I think you see me talking to Heidi in the episode. So I'm like, like, you just want to make this, like, real easy and vote out Christy.

And they both were like, they jumped at it. They were like, like, yeah, we do. We really do want to vote out Christy. Were you surprised by that, considering how much they had chewed you out, not 24 hours prior? I was a, you know, but I had such a good relationship with them prior to that. And we had, like, Jenna was like a sister to me. And Heidi and I always had, like, I felt like a special relationship that we always had. that we always were like good vibes the whole way through.

And, you know, I think that they did up until that one day very much enjoy my personal company. They really, for the prior 30 days, did not really enjoy the company of Christy. And I think at the opportunity of like that they had a sure thing where they could stay in the game, they really, they jumped at it. And there was a lot of contingencies of, okay? So I told Matt about the plan, but we didn't tell Butch about the plan. And this was like- He wasn't in the chain.

I mean, I don't know how many times in prior, like, this is very early days of Survivor, how many times like right before tribal council, the vote is changing. And so this is like, you know, when I look at this episode, I do feel like that this is kind of like a new era-coded situation where it, It's like the sun is going down. We're getting ready to go to tribal council. Like the plan isn't locked in. And, you know, we're really scrambling.

And so I went to Jenna and Heidi. And I said, okay, here's the deal. Like, nobody's allowed to be alone with Christy. So that we, you keep eyes on us. We keep eyes on you. Nobody goes to talk to Christy because, you know, there is a world where now, okay, we vote for, you know, me and Matt vote for Christy, and then they vote for, like, they could have three to one me, you know,

where Jenna and Heidi could have voted with Christy to vote against me, me and Matt vote for Christy, and Butch still votes for Jenna or Heidi, whoever doesn't have the necklace. And, I mean, like, really tip my cap. But I just, that wasn't even, like, that's not even invented yet. And I did not think that that was something that, like, Jenna and, and, and, um, Heidi with love were capable of executing, but the contingency was nobody was allowed to talk to Christy. And so that was the plan. And we were going to leave Butch out of it. We weren't going to tell him. And he, I don't think, would have liked it. I think he was excited. And he still, like, to this day,

you know, if he calls me at a certain hour of the day, was they like, we shouldn't have voted out, Christy, that was the mistake. That was it. I mean, I think people more so point towards what happened next as the mistake when you had like the actual binary choice between the two. But it is interesting to think about, especially because this will be the first of, I think, the four record tying immunity wins that Jenna will have, you know, what happens in that situation. I mean, I am curious if Christy was less squishy watch, because she does vote for Jenna at the

end of the day. If she was telling you, I'm locked in, does any of this happen? Well, you know what? So when we're getting miced up to go to, so we go, then we go to tribal council. And before tribal council, you go in the tent and Christy like pulls me aside. They put, they put up the mics on us. And she's like, hey, I like, I'm voting, voting with you. Like, I wish you, you should have told me that like an hour ago.

You could have made it a live tribal council if you wanted to. Again, that was, that was, but I loved, then I was loving the idea of, because I felt like I had got, I was losing Christy, but I felt like, Mike, that I was getting back to jury votes. Like, I was like, okay, Jen and Heidi don't hate me anymore. I unwrang the bell that I rang with voting out, Alex, no pun intended, who, like, that I went from, they hated my guts to they were back working with me. And I felt like that their jury votes were back in play. And I thought that there was a chance that I could win the game.

And ultimately, I still felt like there. Christy's going to the jury, and she's not going to be mad at me. She hates Jenna and Heidi. And so, like, I felt like that there was, like, an opportunity to still, you know, like, I thought I was having my cake and eating it too. I was just, I was so happy that this was what was coming on. I felt like that this was, like, such a great idea in the moment. And so, also, it was just, it was too late for Chrissy. And I kind of was, like, like, really loving that I felt like that she overplayed her hand.

What was Matt's reaction when you came to him with this plan, considering that I think from his perspective, he thought that you four were locked in until the end? I think that he was on board with it. I don't think he has a confessional about it in the episode, but I think he seemed like, I feel like that he was very much on like the idea of like people getting like overconfident and like he liked that narrative. Butch was very down about it afterwards that had happened.

But, you know, I felt like, okay, and now I'm, I felt like I'm really locked in with Matt after this. I mean, you talk about overconfidence. Christy obviously will have this moment when she's talking to her boyfriend at the family visit, talking about how, like, I'm guaranteed final four. She outright says, I'm in control. I have the power, she says. And I think, again, that's what's not to, you know, need cap suck too much,

but I think that's what's so interesting about this move is because I think ordinarily, there certainly had been situations in the five and a half seasons of Survivor prior to this of people being in the middle. Heck, you yourself were in that. position the very last round. But I think it's this idea where up until this point, everyone kind of thought that person in the middle was untouchable, right?

Because you needed their vote. And this is going to be a bit of an odd comparison, but almost like when Boston Rob and Sean go after Hunter, that the kind of illusion was shattered at that point of like, oh, this person that is usually a lock to make the merge, it can be vulnerable. We can vote

for them in any point in time. Here, I think there's a reason why we've seen this happen time and time again. of just because you feel like you're in the middle, as recently crowned winner once said, sometimes that means you get run over at the end of the day. Yeah. I think it really was an important season

in the run of the show where it was the season where I think anything could happen. And I think that then Pearl Islands comes along and really builds on it and I think overshadows it. But I think that where Marquesas had like the one moment where everything switched. But then it was just sort of like a pegging in the other direction. And this was the first season where the post-merge was really fluid.

And I think that it was a little bit of a flash forward into what Survivor is going to ultimately become for better or for worse, where that there is this game that could go in any different number of directions. And nobody is actually that safe. and recognizing your place in the alliance is a big part of the show. And this was like this stretch right here of like Dina and Alex and Christy, I think is really like the epitome of that, to quote Pascal. Yeah, I think it's this idea that nobody is incredibly safe.

Now, obviously, nowadays you have immunities and you have various advantages in idols that might make you literally safe. But again, this idea of Christy feeling like, you need my vote and you can say, how can I make you the vote? There's just such an interesting, especially as you were mentioning, in such a short amount of time as well. No,

I think a lot of that is predicated on Jen and Heidi's feelings towards her, which I think is good on your part for being able to clock that of like, they hate me now, but they've hated Christy for a lot longer. But I do think it is a really notable thing that truly goes to show that as much as you might feel like your position,

is perfect. If other people are clocking that as well, it could make you public enemy number one. I also want to note that there's also history made where Jenna gives the immunity necklace to Heidi in this episode. Let's talk about that because I think obviously when we look back upon famous, you know, giftings of the immunity necklace,

of course, insert clip number 1,357,554 of Eric Rikinback giving up the necklace. people also talk about Braden Hans, giving up the necklace. We have Chris Underwood and Heidi doing it for Final Four fire making reasons. But like, this is far and away the unsung hero, for lack of a better term. Was this a big deal in the moment? I'm assuming not considering that you were going to do it yourself, had you not wanted to do it. It was a nothing burger. I think that we had talked about a lot that it had never happened.

And I think that this was Jenna. I think that this was really, you know, I definitely seen the spin of like, wow, like this was like next level of Jenna, like, but I mean, Butch still votes for Jenna. Like, there was no, like, it was like, it wasn't like, oh, my God, what do we do now? Like, Butch, unprompted, votes for Jenna in this spot. Like, okay, well, now Heidi has a necklace. I'm voting for Jenna. There wasn't even a discussion.

I was going to say there wasn't any sort of, like, looks and whispers to one another when she gave up the necklace. No, it's going to like, okay. I think, and does, I guess Christy also votes for Jenna. also, right? Yeah. So I guess maybe you had worked into that contingency plan or everyone had just operated

under that logic. Yeah, it's like, okay, well, we'll just vote for the other one. So it wasn't any sort of thing like when like next level like checkmate. I'm giving the necklace, Heidi. I think that and in the next episode,

I think it's going to like, Jenna's going to talk about how she wants to leave. Like I really do feel like Heidi was doing a number on Jenna of like, you know, so I don't know how much Heidi had also been like pushing for the necklace also. So I don't know if that was part of it

because it's not in the episode. But it was just like, okay, they're just like, they love each other, their best friends. Well, we're on the Survivor Time Trip. Let's explore an alternate universe here. Let's thumb through the almanac, knowing what we know now. So let's say that, again,

you decide to not go down this path and you stick with the four and you vote out Jenna in this case. She still gives immunity to Heidi. And Christy's still in the game at the final time. Is she the new? new Eric Reichenback? Is she the first Eric Reichenback? I get that could be the case of like worst move ever.

But I mean, I'm assuming, you know, all the same challenge results as they are in the actual season proper, what do you think happens? I guess in particular, the one thing I'm most curious about is like, does Matt still snake you in the end, you think? Yeah, so there's a couple different ways to look at this. And, you know, I've thought of, honestly, like, I've thought about it a fair amount, but I've never really like been like up at night. Like, oh man, if this would change this one thing, it would have been, you know, Survivor Amazon would have been mine. Obviously, like, as time has gone on, like, I'm very content with how things have worked out. But in this scenario where, okay, Jenna gets voted out. She's the new

Eric Rickenback, dumbest move ever, giving the necklace to Heidi. Then at the final five, immunity, Matt is going to win the immunity challenge. I would presume then Heidi gets voted out at the final five. Final four is me, uh, like, Like, frankly, like, Christy in the Blindfold Challenge. I'm not sure if she ultimately ends up being the winner there. Kind of, kind of, like, a little rude, I think, frankly, to put Christie in the Blindfold Challenge. Nevertheless, then here comes Matt, who was, I think,

closer to winning that challenge. And then, so Matt, I think, would win immunity at the final four. I mean, I presume, but I mean, I guess it's possible at some point that Matt and Butch or Matt Bucch or Christi goes, why don't we just find out Rob? Like, what's he, what's he bringing to the table? So it is possible that ultimately, like, I don't want to just say like, oh, I would have like just out smarted. Honestly, at the final four, I don't know why they didn't vote me out then. I was like, oh, like, I guess they're going to vote me out now. And then Jenna and Matt were like, yeah, butch doesn't deserve to be here. I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. Totally. And so I really was surprised that they didn't just take a shot at me there. So it's hard to say what they would have done because I know what would have been the logical move that made sense, but I can't really assign to any of them what the, like between, when we're talking about, like, what would 2002 Matthew von Erfelda, Butch and Christi have done?

I think I could have had some influence there. I think I probably would have like leaned hard on the like, all right, Matt and Butch, like, where the like the three amigos. Bro down. Let's, yeah, let's go. And, you know, Christy, she did a good job. We promised her final four. And I don't know, is it possible that, you know, if that Butch could have outlasted me on the, in the final three challenge? Yeah, the power of belief.

Yeah. I mean, Matthew maybe feels like, okay, well, Rob and Butch are both going to take me to the end. And so maybe Butch, I mean, Butch was doing pretty good on the challenge that we did where Jen and Heidi took off their clothes for chocolate and peanut butter. So who's to say? Yeah, I mean, would have been a very interesting ending no matter what. But regardless, it leads to an incredibly interesting outcome and a very interesting reaction from Christy, who is devastated. Yeah. Obviously did not see this coming.

I mean, again, I think that this is, I don't think it necessarily provides these big blindside reactions. that we're used to seeing, but did you clock any major surprises from both the people in tribal counsel and the jury, especially in response to this? I don't really remember. It did seem like in the jury, like Dina and Alex and Dave were a little bit like, ugh. Like they kind of like play it like they know, like at the moment where Christy is like saying that she's in charge. She shouldn't have done that. But I don't know if they had a big reaction. So Christy rather infamously says in her final words. quote, I'm going to make sure those evil freaking step sisters of mine are not going to win the million dollars.

And I want you to correct the record a little bit here, Rob, because certainly at the time, there was a lot of hoopla around the fact that Christy does vote for Jenna and perhaps some theories of, okay, did Christy misunderstand Jeff when he said that you're voting for a winner tonight? She couldn't read his lips. And so thought she was voting Jen out, essentially pulling a tow pass before there was a tow pass. But I know you spend a limited amount of time in Ponderosa after being voted out. Did you get a sense as to why Christy did ultimately vote for Jenna instead of Matt? No, and I don't think I even knew that she did until it was the live finale.

So that was kind of a big surprise for me going into that night. I didn't talk to anybody about my jury vote. I actually, like, when I talked to Jenna, and I used to talk to her a lot, like as the season was there, I really did lead her to believe that I had voted for Matt. I would have wanted like one more blindside. Careful. People have recently reported that that's not good to do to potential vitalists. Yeah.

Well, but she had won. She was the winner. So I had, you know, was like having some fun with her about like whether or not I voted for her. But I think that we all thought that, you know, that Christy would have voted for Matt. Has she ever been on the record anywhere saying why she did it? I don't think I've been able to figure that out of my research. She said to know that there was reasons why that, you know, she thought that Jenna had better answers. And so I, Christy has, you know, said in, you know, numerous interviews after the fact that she voted for Jenna to win.

We've had a number of times. It had the great opportunity to listen to you reconnect with some of your Amazon cast members over the course of Rob has a podcast. But who would you say in your cast your closest with? Who do you talk to the most out of the, you know, dozen plus people? that you headed into the Amazon rainforest with almost 25 years ago. You know, I, it's kind of sad for me to say, I really, I kind of, like, over the years it was Jenna,

and I feel like we've lost touch over the last, you know, 10 or so years. And she doesn't have a big public persona. You know, she had done a talking with T-Bird. We had a great talking to T-Bird with Heidi, which was actually one of my favorites. I hear from Butch every now and then. and when he calls you up and tells you

how much you made the wrong choice at the final six he'll do that I feel like there was something recently oh I think I was maybe I was talking I was we did like a survivor mailbag where he talked about what happens if this happened and Butch like weighed in on that on Instagram message. I'll get a message from Dina

every now and then but ultimately like I yeah I'm not super like I'm probably more in contact with some of my castmates from Survivor All-Stars. So the last thing I do want to ask is one that we've talked about a bit with our previous guests as well, which is the reaction to watching yourself back. And you have been on record quite a few times about how maybe from a certain salacious perspective, you know, you don't love the 24-year-old version of yourself that we saw on the Amazon.

But I guess I would say through the lens of this specifically, this gameplay that you were able to, from your perspective, like able to kind of pull yourself out from this hole you dug yourself in to survive the round. how do you look back on that and watching sort of your origin story for a very long you know roller coaster of a career? Yeah well a lot of the stuff that I do have regrets about

is luckily in the first half of the season so there's not nothing that I caught here that really was like want to take that back maybe there's a couple things like in the last couple episodes but it's you know I

I think it's interesting, especially with a modern lens, to look back at see some of the things that we're going on here, where to me it's like a harbinger of like where the game is ultimately going to go. And it's not like an instant shift, but I think that this is where the game is sort of like, and I had recently watched some clips from like Borneo and like from the early days of Survivor, and we're sort of like in the evolution of what the show is going to be.

You can sort of like when you watch like the early days of the show, it's like unrecognizable that this is the same thing that you're having in Survivor 50 and Survivor 51. Here, it like, it kind of is starting to feel like this is not totally dissimilar to what you would see like in the modern day of Survivor. So I think that it's cool to watch like how the game progressed here. And I think that while ultimately like was this the optimal move to get me to the end, hard to say, but I mean, maybe not,

but it was like, I think a really interesting inflection point in the run of the show. I completely agree. And I think that's something that cannot be stated enough in these early seasons

of Survivor is I think nowadays we take a lot of no-brainer moves for granted, where I think nowadays, again, we've seen it a number of times people be like, oh yeah,

of course, this person's in the middle, but like, it'd be better if we got her out as opposed to going after someone who's an op, yes, but on the other side, side that I, you know, could feasibly take to the end. I feel like in these early days between, you know, what you did here, between the fall of the row two four, even some of the stuff that

Johnny Fairplay and Burton were doing the next season. There was a lot of like, this hasn't happened before, but could I try this? And the success results may vary. But I think that it's just really interesting to track in the first, I'd say 10 seasons or 10 years even of the show, things that people were willing to try that had no historical precedent. They did not have volumes upon volumes, seasons of seasons to look back on and be like, oh, I think I could do this. This is innovation just at the tops of people's minds based on what they were thinking in that moment, but it causes these seismic shifts without even realizing it. Yeah. Would I want to spend a lot of time with 24-year-old me? I think probably not. But when I look back like I'm proud of 24-year-old me

I think about that a lot in terms of like the, like, what was the version of me that was this age and what was the version of me that was this age? And so, like, like, I think that the 24-year-old version of me, like, I'm proud of him for, like, taking risks and sending in a tape to go and be on the show and to go out there and then, you know, take this opportunity and to make kind of risky moves when he had the opportunity. and I think that that was a cool thing that he did, and I'm really glad that he did those things. That makes me so happy. I'm curious, speaking of, I guess, talking to younger versions of yourself. I know you had mentioned showing your sons your immunity win at one point.

How much have they seen of Amazon at this point? Really not much. I think we watched the first episode. Nicole really doesn't like it and really doesn't want them to see. Maybe it's a bad influence on them, Yeah, I did, you know, I told the story a bunch when it happened about that we had watched, Dominic had asked me, Dad, did you ever win the immunity necklace? And I said, yeah, let me show you.

And I, and I pulled up from the previous episode where I win the touchy subjects challenge. And then they were like first like, dad, this is a quiz? What is this? Big Brother. I was like, listen, this is where the challenge is. Some would say that's a more impressive win, perhaps, than anyone can, you know, stand and hold a ball up or solve a puzzle. you had to have your finger on the pulse of the tribe. Right.

But the first question was like, who in the tribe do you have a crush on? And they were like, oh my God, why are they doing this? They asked a question like, who would you like to see Pose naked in a magazine? And then Nicole had come down the stairs at that point. I was like, ah! Let's say, yeah, to be fair, again,

I think a lot has been made especially from yourself about how, again, perhaps lascivious, you were towards certain contestants. But like, that's the general vibe of this season. And there really was like MTV Spring Break coded. Where you mentioned, again, I watched that final seven episode. You know, Jeff's talking about like the auctione. He's like, come on, Heidi, strut your stuff.

Come up and do this. And obviously, like, the chocolate and peanut butter comes out. There's mention of that as well. So it kind of was, as I mentioned before, a bit of an equal opportunity offender in terms of the tone of the season. It was a different time. And we've all, we've had so much growth. And, you know, the show has, we all have.

the viewers have I am so happy that you suggested to do this yeah this was a fun one yeah this made my heart so happy apologies for the word vomit

not to be confused with the vomit that butch had off the side of the shelter after too much wine but I loved getting to peek inside your head and again

I think it's a really not only important episode for the show but there's a lot going on as well there's a lot of drama happening there's obviously this big flip

the family visits going on there's a lot packed into this 42-minute period. In what I would say, yes, the final seven vote is massive for your game in the season. But, like, I think when it comes to your legacy as a survivor player, I think this is 1A. Yeah, there's just the point where I'm like monologuing with the snake of talking about how that, you know, I'm a lone wolf and I'm an alliance of one. I don't think anybody had ever said those types of things on the show before.

Yeah, I don't think that Survivor was operated in a mercenary-like, level. If they did, it was more so from the map variety, right? Of like, this person's so far out there, they don't know what's going on. For you, it was more so kind of like a killer for fire. Of like, I don't care who it is. I'm taking in the mouth. Yeah, I take the bottom feeders and I offer them the dream of going to the end. And like, I think that that was like an interesting philosophy of like, who are the people who are out of the power? And can you work with them and try to take them to like group them up in terms of numbers? Yeah, it's really interesting because I think there's been a lot of discussion as well of like, oh, were you a villain?

I'll admit, Rob, there were certainly points here where, you know, the eventual winner of the season says she hates your guts and you talk about scooping up the bottom feeders. And it's a little bit like, yeah, I can say a little Machiavellian aspects to you. Sure. But what are you going to do? This episode is also, I believe, takes place on May 1st or airs on May 1st, 2023, which is canonically the dating anniversary of myself and the First Lady of Podcasting. Wow, it was a big night for you in many ways. Big night. Big night.

But did you have a watch party for this episode? Yes, yes. Okay, so you were really riding the high. This is like your own family visit where you were like, listen, I'm drunk on life right now. I just pulled off this big move. And now I'm taking a big swing on the woman I love. Big night for me, but bigger night for my mom.

That's also true. Yeah, Roseanne got her national TV periods. My parents were so excited. They had all these people over and that my mom was on TV. Oh my God. I mean, again, an incredible episode for the Cessorino family in more ways than one. Yes. Okay. Mike, what's

coming up for you? So, of course, Big Brother, you know, we are hitting the halfway point of that season. So I've got my usual stuff going on there with Parade. I mean, the thing that I will plug is that we will be taking a brief recess from the time trip. We will not have a podcast coming out next week

for good reason, because you and I will be paddling our own respective native Amazonian boats. Hopefully we're not, we don't have to swim our way to Milwaukee, but we'll be attending rehab con, which should be incredibly exciting. Yeah. Fun times ahead next week, so looking forward to seeing everybody in person next week, especially you, Mike. Yeah, we've got a lot of really fun things in the planning stages, a lot of malarkey happening. And who knows, maybe we can have Rob Reprise, his karaoke number that didn't make the edit by the end of those, the three days sojourn there.

Like too much of a ballad. I think you want to be upbeat for karaoke. I guess so. But I mean, if it encapsulated the mood, right? We're like, everyone was, like, very much in their fields. I think you were able to really embody the spirit of what was happening. You were your own Russ Landau. Yes.

So, I can't imagine how much money they had to pay for that to be the episode way back when. How much money they wasted on me singing on Survivor. All right. Thank you so much. Take care. Have a good one. Bye.