RHAP: We Know Survivor - Spoiler-free Review of Escape! w/ Stephen Fishbach

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Spoiler-free Review of Escape! w/ Stephen Fishbach Today, Rob Cesternino and Stephen Fishbach celebrate the launch of Stephen’s debut novel, Escape! To pre-order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com To order Stephen’s novel Escape!, visit stephenfishbach.com Buy tickets for Stephen’s book events here! stephenfishbach.com/events Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

This episode of Rob is a Podcast is presented by 20th Century Studios. Send Help from the Twisted Mind of Sam Ramey, Director of the Evil Dead, and Drag Me to Hell, starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'Brien. It's a new film that begs the question, what would you do if you were stuck on an island with your terrible boss? Do not answer if you work at Rob as a podcast, okay? In Paradise, HR, can't hear you scream. Only in theaters in 3D this Friday.

Hey everybody, what's going on? Rob Sisternino here. And today we are doing our first ever book recap here. We're talking about the book is escape exclamation point. The author is Stephen Fishback who joins us whose book has just come out today. His first novel. Congratulations to you, Stephen Fishback. Thank you, Rob.

Did you know I had been writing a book? Did you know I had a novel coming out? You know, I had heard some like whispers that a book was coming out, but you have taken the literary world by surprise here with this debut novel, Escape! Exclamation point! Well, I appreciate you wearing your glasses for this. I wore my glasses for this podcast, yes.

Yeah, it shows we're really got to literary. These are my real glasses, but I guess it was a little bit of a prop for this podcast because I wanted to try to keep up with you now, a published author. and I have read Escape and I have not gotten a chance to talk with you or I've been saving all of my thoughts for a podcast so I'm very excited to get into that we won't do full full spoilers but I'd love to talk a little bit more

a little bit more in depth about the book but Stephen how are you feeling that today is the day that Escape is finally out obviously relieved since we're recording this a little early like I'm imagining myself being relieved right now in reality I'm quite nervous breaking the illusion for the listeners

we're not live at this moment Yeah. I'm very nervous right now because, you know, the book is coming out imminently, I guess today, according to this podcast. But, you know, it's, it has been so incredible the way that the Rob has a podcast community has embraced the book and just been so enthusiastic and so kind. And now I'm like just like tremendously worried that I'm going to like live up to their expectations. Well, Stephen, I've been, you know, trying to, you know, say this to you in some different ways. everybody's going to love the book. And I love the book. And I'm excited to get the chance to talk to you. I thought it was so fun. And especially for people who follow what we do and people who have followed your journey with Survivor, I feel like so much of your heart and soul is important to this book. I know that you have been working on this for 10 years. And so I think that this was an incredible culmination of everything. I hear your voice in the book. And so it was a very, very fun read for me. And I've been saying on the podcast, I really feel like that you capture the world of reality TV in a way that I don't think I've ever seen anybody capture that sort of twisted, deranged world that we inhabit so well. Well, thank you. I mean, truly, thank you so much.

Like that really, honestly, like that means the world to me and is like rich for my heart. Like, you know, that, that, that, you know, like you said, like it's my voice. And I really, really appreciate that. I did try to channel, you know, so much of my, my thoughts and feelings and, and, you know, the things I've learned, you know, from across the years. So, you know, I was doing, it wasn't 10 years of nonstop work. I was doing other things. There were years that I didn't work on it at all. So, you know, it was not just like there for all the 10 years, you know. I had kids. I had two kids in that time. You got a lot done. So I'd love to talk with you. I have so many questions for you about your process

and about the story. So I hope you don't, we could be a little bit all over the place, I feel like, today, but I think that I have all of my relevant book questions for you. And I'd love to know from you, I know that writing has always been something that you have aspired to. At what point did you say, okay, this is the book I am going to write? Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. So I, you know, I've talked in other places about how, like, I had this sort of epiphany on Cambodia that I wanted to write a novel, right, where I was like out there. in that, you know, the monsoon rainstorms, you know, violently ill. And like, I'm thinking, and, and just had this realization that I'm willing to give all

this to reality TV, like, how do I not write a book? Like, if I'm, like, willing to suffer like this for this thing that is, like, this sort of ridiculous, you know, ridiculous endeavor, how can I not, like, then write a novel, which I do care about? But I started with, you know, writing about, like, the New York media landscape. And I shouldn't, like, denigrate that too much in case I would turn. turn to that book. But, you know, at the time, I felt like that was very, you know, that, that, that's terrain that has, is well trod. And I thought to myself, like, you know, I, I have access to

this world and these experiences. And I've never really seen them depicted, um, in a way that I feel is true, you know, and so like that was ultimately my guy. And of course, like the book goes off the rails of it. But like, that was my guiding, you know, principle was, um, like, try to capture, like the truth of the genre and the truth of the people that are there and all of their, like, you know, soulful and insane and ridiculous and absurd glory. Yeah. Right. What you know, of course, makes sense.

For me, as a reader, though, that I had to, it was very meta for me because I think that in terms of like what I do in terms of like a person that has played on reality TV, I know in terms of the, you know, I did the traders, but it's not nearly as dangerous as what you go and do on Survivor. but there was a point when I was thinking about what it would be like for me to go and be on Survivor 50. And I, you know, did like have the thought, well, I think that, you know, I would never quit the game. No matter what was, whatever medical issue was happening, they'd have to pull me out of the game, like, kick out. I would put my health on the line to go and do this again.

And that's kind of a sick thought. Like it's, it's not a thought that a normally functioning human being should have. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's so funny that you say that. You know, that's it. It's like that mentality of I'm going to sacrifice my real life, which is like 99.9% of my time for this, you know, ephemeral thing, which is one month. And it's like, it's both an absurd insane thought, but there's also some merit to it because that ephemeral thing is so intense and so meaningful.

And it gives us like such depth and richness. And you know, and you get to do this incredible, you know, have this incredible experience of going off into the jungle and, and, you know, competing in this way that like, you know, that's, you never get to do as part of life. And of course, like, it's also being celebrated on TV and you're filmed.

And so, like, truly, like, that was, that was the heart of what I was trying to capture with his book is like, it's a crazy, silly, ridiculous thing. And yet, like, it's so meaningful too. Yeah. And I think you really do capture it in a way that I don't know if it's ever really been explored where you're right that to the participants in the moment, it is so meaningful. And us reality TV participants put so much meaning into it.

But also, I think that at times you're also able to pull back and show just how meaningless it is in the greater scope of things where things that were like, oh, this was the most important that ever happened to me and other characters are like, wait, they're getting details wrong about misremembering things. And so it really, I thought, I was like a little bit like, okay, well, what am I doing with myself in terms of like, I feel like you've just, I feel like you have, but I also, Stephen, have you ever, and I don't know if this is ever a thought that you've had where like, do you ever look at the microcosm of the reality show world as a metaphor for all of life where that, you know, we're, we're, this whole big thing is all just like one stupid

reality show. Oh, totally. I mean, honestly, like, that's, that's it. Like, that's, like, I do feel like everybody, especially now in like the social media areas, like, we're all kind of like performing identities. We're all sort of like, you know, act, you know, and especially like, you know, it's, it's a cliche to say that that's become, you know, part of our political landscape too, but also, but it's also just part of our cultural landscape where everybody is kind of like trying to live up to this idealized version of themselves. We're all trying to be, you know, we talk about this all the time,

like the heroes of our own story. And like, you know, one of the most, whether that's on reality TV or not, you know, everyone wants to be the hero of their own story. And one of the most painful things on reality TV and in life is like recognizing when you're just a side character,

you know, in the story that's happening around you. Like that's, I feel like that's just like, that's like all the time, you know? Like, I feel like that's how we all feel in politics right now. It's like,

I'm just a side character, but I want to influence things so, badly, you know. But yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's exactly, that's exactly right. So without going too deep into the plot, I think we could say that the story really centers around, I think, two main characters, that there is Kent Duval, who is the sort of like washed up former great of a fictional reality show called Indoor and who ends up getting really sucked back into the world of a new reality show. And this was the part that was like very much of, you know,

like, okay, washed up reality has been going on a new show that's taking people from the old show and putting them in a different thing. Yeah, very relatable. But he's going into, there's this new show that's coming up, which is called Escape, which is pulling in some of the people from indoor. So you have Kent DeValle. And then also you tell the story of Beck, who is a reality TV producer. And so I really felt like that that was an interesting question I had for you or I guess that you'll be the judge if it's an interesting question or not.

But why did you decide to also tell the story from the perspective of a character where I totally get from the perspective of the reality TV show contestant? But you also tell a story from the perspective of a reality TV producer. I mean, honestly, that was the initial interest for me was what is it like? for the producers out there because, you know, these people are telling a structured story, a structured like three-act story, you know, and we were just talking about, right, what are the acts of this of Survivor 49, you know, that using real lives and in this, in the jungle, which is, you know, so chaotic. And the way that they do that is just so fascinating to me.

And of course, they're also like flawed, messy people themselves. You know, so the idea of these, what is going on with them? You know, like that was like that was sort of the initial intrigue for me. Like what are these people, you know, what's going on in their head space? You know, how do they justify some of the things that they're doing? And, you know, we also know that there's, you know, from just culture, like some producers put their thumbs on the scale. Some, some do not. And so like I was interested in exploring kind of like the different degrees to which people do that.

and how they would justify that to themselves. Are they, do they say, like, I'm doing this for good to, like, help people or, you know, some of them just doing it for evil, not doing it for evil, but, you know, love the, love the mess of it. So this is something I had really wanted to ask you from the time I picked up the book. You describe most of the action that takes place in the book in the third person perspective. but the character of Beck, the reality producer, I noticed that you talk about her in the first person. And I wanted to know about that choice that you made to write the book that way.

Rob, this is fantastic. You're like a literary analysis interviewer. My God, this is A-plus literary. I've been waiting weeks to ask you about the book. I shouldn't doubt it. I mean, as a writer of a forthcoming book yourself, I mean, I just like, you know, getting into the voices. My book is all in the first person. Yeah.

You don't go third person about, you don't do a whole section from, I don't know, for the respect of the viewer watching Survivor. Yeah. So, I mean, it was a couple of reasons for that.

The first is just like the thematic reason, which is that for Beck, she is someone who is, she's all told in first person past tense. And so she's someone who's like always like shaping the story, you know, and shaping it through her own lens. Like,

you know, experiencing something, but then kind of like, you know, a little bit of an unreliable narrator. So, you know, she's someone who's always like taking things and like explaining them to herself as well as to others. And so I wanted that to be to capture that in, in first person. And then with the contestants, I really, like third person present, I really was trying to capture that experience of kind of like being a reality contestant where you are just

constantly, you know, the way you narrate your confessionals is like, I'm doing this. And now I then I go do that. You know, you don't talk in the past tense in a reality TV congressional. Even if something happened a week ago, you know, you act as though it's happening right now. And I think that is like sort of,

you know, I was trying to like capture that sort of like vibe for the contestants. And then even just from like a more like a simplistic, you know, I think it helps distinguish who's, who's, you know, which narrator it is for the reader. Like so it's easier to quickly tell like,

oh, this is a back chapter versus this is a Kent chapter. So you have so many different reality TV character. and players in the game and also in the people that are talked about at the big charity event. Have you said that there are certain reality TV contestants that you borrowed personality traits from? Yeah, I mean, I was like thinking archetypally, you know,

there is the sort of like, you know, and especially because like that's, you know, I think it's less on Survivor now. I do think it's still very much the case in a lot of reality shows, but certainly like Survivor back in the day was like this where they would really cast archetypes where you know you had the nerd

you had like the hot beach babe you had like the crazy older lady you had the like alpha jock you know so I definitely was thinking of like that and really just that also like because there are so many characters like you say like it makes it easier to kind of digest who's who because you're like okay these are these are who our archetypes are and then I can kind of like complicate that

later in the book but like yeah of course I have my models You know, some of them are maybe clearer than others. But some of them like, you know, they're not even all survivor contestants. You know, there's one, there's one character that is just taken from a different, from one of my favorite shows of all time, which is stranded with a million dollars, which lasted a season on MTV. There's a character on that who informs the ruddy villain character. Yes, yes.

I know you're also somebody who puts a lot of thought into game design and really thinks about these things on a very deep level. how much time did you put into the mechanics of the fictional show escape? Yeah, this was truly one of the biggest challenges for me that I was revising all through the whole process. Because initially I had like a really complex reality show, but it was kind of boring to read because, you know, like the characters can't do stuff if they're always like doing things that the show is kind of forcing it. I mean, sort of what we talk about with Survivor where it's like we can't see the characters make their own decisions when the game keeps coming to them. So there was a little bit of that aspect of it. But it was too paired down where it was like, it was more like alone where they were just

like existing in the jungle. And then it was like, what's the point of even calling it a reality show at that point? So I kept on like adding in more mechanics. And a lot of it really was just sort of like making a plot that worked, you know, like the way the money is kind of added to the treasure chest. That's their goal. A lot of that was just- Can you explain the rules of the game for anybody who has not read the book?

Good. Yeah. So the show that they're on is called Escape with an acclamation point. And eight contestants are stranded on an island. They each get one like survival item. Like someone's got the machete. Someone's got the fire starter. Someone has a tarp.

And then there is a destination island that they have to like sail to or get to in some capacity. And on that island is a treasure chest. And every day more money is added to that treasure chest. And so it's up to the contestants, basically, how long they wait to, like, go and snag the money. And you can go early and, like, take some money, but then the game will keep going without you. And, of course, you can, like, so sabotage other people's rafts, which, which, of course, happens. And, you know, so there's this pressure to, like, there's this constant, like, question of, like,

when are people going to go, go for the money, you know, when are they not going to, or do they allow the money to accumulate so they get more? and in order to access that treasure trust, you have to win a key. And like the keys are basic, you know, I don't want to give too much away, I guess, but they have to like get it, they have to win a key to access that, that trust. But like truly like the idea of like the money kind of growing over time.

Like part of that was because like, well, if the money's just there, why are they not just going like day one? You know? And I was like, had all these like contorted rationales for like, oh, well, they're there for the experience and like they're, you know, being produced. But it didn't really make sense. So I had to have like the money kind of a.

increase. And oh, just over time, I like, like finesse the rules. Even the keys were came later. Because there were challenges. And then they were like, why are their challenges? Like, there have to be a reason for these challenges. Yeah. In the world of the show, I think that, um, escape is on some sort of like, uh, basic cable, like discovery channel. I do feel like that in the streaming world, like, I think I could probably see escape existing more like, like, like just they dropped the whole season. And it is like a show that people binge. And I could see it having more success there. Listen, I'm up for whatever platform wants to have it.

You know, if Hulu, Peacock, you know, if you want, if you want escape, you know, let's give me a call. I'm ready. I do feel like that the show that exists that it's like the closest to was, I don't know if you watched Outlast on Netflix. But yeah, I do feel like that, you know, there's not a key and there's not a treasure chest. But there's, you know, there's these survivalists and they're sabotaging each other and they're taking each other stuff. Yeah, I mean, I had written most of this before Outlast came out, but I certainly, and I certainly, that first season of Outlast especially, like, you know, it did, it did really resonate with me because there is that element.

Like, there's that question of like, you know, it was kind of amazing when that came out. It was like, 2024, you know, that there's still this question of like, are you acting honorably or are you acting deviously, you know, which I feel like has so gone by the wayside and Survivor. But like the fact that it would still really resonate with, you know, these survivalist types, I thought it was like really like refreshing and kind of like I sort of like leaned on that. You know, like this is, there is still some sense of like who I am on reality TV is meaningful to who I am as a real person. When I first started reading the book, I got instantly hooked with ever the way you get into the story and Kent Deval going to the charity event.

And I thought that you captured so perfectly just the the scene. And I'm sure there's there's so many wonderful. charity events, but I think that some of us who have been around the game for a long time have been to a couple that are maybe not seemingly so great. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, ultimately, I was trying to like parody more the contestants than the events themselves, right?

Which is like for like, you know, these events are happening and they are raising money for charity. But then the contestants go. And for them, it's just like an opportunity to get to be famous again for a few minutes. Yes. And, yeah. But Kent of all, he wants to appear, but he also wants $1,500 to show up at the charity event. And to me, I felt like that that was so perfectly captured where.

Thank you. Yeah. That I could imagine, you know, a number of reality stars, you know, holding out for, they desperately want to be there, but they're going to play hardball with the charity. Yeah. Negotiate the extra like the tiny, like the little, the little, uh, payment against against what the charity would otherwise be giving you. But it's also like so interesting because like, you know, the charity is paying for, you know,

people's flights and hotel rooms. And they definitely pay a stipend to like, you know, the more, I mean, some of them do, like the more marquee name. So there is this just sort of, you know, question. I mean, it's like this, this hierarchy of being in the reality TV community, which, you know, constantly gets, you know, reflected in almost every venue. Yeah. I like the reality stars.

They get like really self-righteous about the charitable. work that they're doing also by attending the like getting drunk at the bar. I do I do like that. I feel like that. I feel like you could have had a little bit more of that like sanctimonious reality stars. Oh, totally. It's such a. It's got here for charity.

I'm helping kids. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's the sequel. Yeah. So I'm sure you went through so many different revisions of this. When did you finish the first draft of escape?

I mean, I finished it like, I mean, so, you know, in terms of having been a product of years, like, I wrote the first draft, like, many years ago, like five, six years ago. And, like, I wasn't up to where I kind of wanted it to be. I mean, this was a draft that was entirely from the producer's perspective. So I went back and I got an MFA because I thought to myself, you know. Well, I don't know an MFA. It's a master's, so a master's of fine arts in writing, basically, in fiction writing. So I just, like, worked on my craft of fiction writing.

Wait, you got another degree? Yeah, yeah. Did you tell people about this? No. Yeah. Did I miss something? No, honestly, like, I didn't tell people. It was always in the Survivor off season.

So, you know, you wouldn't even know. And I was in getting it. I went to this program through NYU that was in Paris, where for two weeks, twice a year, we would go and meet up and we'd have our, like, mentors. And then the way it would work was it would be correspondence. So you'd, like, meet your mentor. You'd have, like, workshops.

And then you'd go back over the next, like, six months. and you'd exchange messages. So you'd like, you'd like, send them a chunk of text and they'd write back with like their feedback on it. And then you'd go back and forth. You went back and forth to Paris to go work on the book? Yeah. This is like a bigger twist than in the book.

I had no idea about any of this. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly, I didn't. I like this whole secret life. Yeah. I like a, I'm a private person, I guess, in spite of being on having been on reality television.

Well, I was going to ask you, because the timeline of what you're saying, where how long this took and how long it's been really in development. I was going to ask you, like, was the pandemic a time in which you really did a lot of work on escape? Well, honestly, like, I was in, I was in, I mean, no, like, it was actually, like, uniquely unproductive for me. I think for many people, like, almost like the pressure of too much time.

And then actually, like, my wife was pregnant during that time. And so we had a baby. So, like, it was like that actually, like, in terms of that, those, like 10 years, like, There were like some years right there. There was very little work. But also I was working on short stories. And, you know, that through my MFA program, I kind of had this thought that, like, I needed to get my reps in, you know?

So I needed to like, you know, step away from the book, write other things to like, just like feel, get my own voice a little bit and like feel more comfortable writing when it wasn't with this huge project of like writing a novel. But in fact, the pandemic was terrible for right travel too because, as you know, I'm a crazy shut in. And I had to, like, go to, you know, travel across the world, you know, multiple times. And I was, you know, full, like, hazmat gear, you know, stepping through the, you know, Charles de Gaul.

Yeah. But you put yourself through it through the gauntlet to get there. Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately, it was great. I mean, I really learned a lot for my professors. And this, this, the first, the story that became kind of the germ of this, which was like that, that charity event was something I wrote through the program because I kind of had been, I just, like,

wanted to try out things that I'd been learning. And I wrote the story and one of my teachers was like, this belongs in the book. Like, these are the themes of the book. And I realized, like, I had a book entirely from a reality producer's perspective. But I myself am not a reality producer. And like, why, you know, how could I like not have the contestant's perspective? You know, like, how stupid that was. So in the book, the story and you make it very clear in the opening of the book that you had a great experience on Survivor. This book is not supposed to be. And you, you know, Survivor and the producers from Survivor were all like extreme professionals in their craft. But some of the producers on this show are a little crooked.

Yeah. They push maybe were they a little bit, a little bit much? I mean, I have been, you know, I mean, just having been around the reality show world, you know, having been on the network side, having worked with production companies. And then like I also interviewed a lot of producers. before that, you know, for this executive producers, segment producers, you know, just like to learn the different strategies and tactics. And I mean, this is that, it's very representative of what happens on a lot of these shows where the way that producers ask questions that then kind of like,

don't just like lead you to a different action, but they even like lead you to think differently about yourself. Yeah. And I thought, you know, to me that's like a really interesting phenomenon. One of the things that I had really never thought about is when we talk about, oh, okay, well, production like this person, production like that person. You know, it's sort of thinking about production like a monolith. Like the opinion of every single person behind the scenes is that this person is our favorite and we want to sort of like favor this one person because that's who we want to win. but your book really explores this idea of there's actually factions of like there's a reality show behind the reality show and one person might want good things for this one person but another person behind the scenes might want good things for another person oh rob i'm so glad that that's like

what you you know one of the things that resonated for you because like that was something that i got from my interviews was like that's literally how it is you know is that you have these competing producers and they have like competing priorities and competing storylines that they're interested in and they will like argue over them at these story meetings like I talked to a lot of producers and that you know this was kind of what they told me is like they would literally like sort of like you know argue about it and then like there is like cd behavior you know where like some like a producer will get like a good like an important confessional from like your contestant and then like they won't do it like you wanted to you know they'll kind of like do it in a different way so they'll sort of like snag

your moment and kind of like undermine it as a way of like minimizing your story so they're really And I just thought that was such an interesting dynamic where, like, you know, I talked about how the producers are storytellers, but like, it's like rival storytellers, you know, who are each trying to tell a different story. You know, and again, like, that's really the theme of the book is like who gets to control the story that's being told. But yeah, I just thought that was like so, so you're right. Like, it's not usually how we talk about it, but it's such an like an interesting dynamic. And, and, you know, for me, like, one of the one of the things that was interesting about this book was like, it is like kind of office politics. but within this crazy reality TV universe. Yeah, and do you feel like that the reality TV contestants understand

that that's what's going on in that there is not, you think you're playing a game that's against the other players, but really you're trying to curry the favor of specific producers? I don't think so. I mean, that's not my experience of reality. Reality contestants being self-aware is not my experience of mostly of the of the contestants. you know, I think that if anything, I would say some contestants think that they are being helped

by producers for a lot of, on a lot of these shows. But really, the producers are helping the show, right? So they might like, you know, nudge you in a certain direction and you're like, oh, they're giving me hints. But like those hints are not necessarily going to help you out. They're going to help the show out. Yeah. And it's interesting just that the battle for, you know, who gets to, you know, have their way of the

producers, it's not like they get more money if that they're like a desired cast member gets more confessionals. So it really was interesting to see, you know, the producers in the book have this personal investment in the outcome. Yeah. And I mean, that was, I mean, that was sort of what was, like, you know, like one of the most interesting things, like how the producers do sort of like project onto the contestants. And I really think that happens. You know, I think it becomes very personal. because they're in this crazy environment too, right? They are, you know, in the rain being poured on. And I just think that it's natural for, it's natural for them to sort of start to, like,

really identify with the contestants because, like, in the way that, you know, in the way that an author identifies with a character and they start to, like, you know, imagine what the character is going to go through. You know, that's like the producers with the contestants. I mean, I've heard that from producers on other shows, too, you know, producers on The Bachelor. Like, they suddenly become, like, really invested in, you know, in the fate of one contestant and really start to identify with that person. It's just like really fascinating how that like kind of like mirroring happens.

So it's not just like it's not that the influence works just one way. Like it kind of like goes, it feeds into each other. And that was like how you felt writing the book with a you have personal investment in some of the characters. Well, truly, yeah. Like you're like, oh, you know, I think, I mean, I think every author sort of talks about that. It's like, you know, you sort of start off kind of, you know, pushing the characters in one direction. And then you see like, oh, no, they're taking on a life of their own. Like they wouldn't do that.

And like, that's when you know the characters are alive. And I do feel like there's probably that element with the producers too. You know, they're like at first they start off just kind of like shaping you. But then like at some point the people push back. So I have more questions for you, but I don't want to spoil anything from the plot. I'm wondering if maybe we should give people a chance to read the book and maybe come back at some point like in a couple of weeks and then do some kind of Q&A where we can get it to like some more of the plot centered questions. I'd love to do that. That's amazing.

And, you know, yeah, that would be fantastic. And these are amazing questions. I mean, I act, I'm like saying that as though I'm surprised. Like, obviously you literally do. Did it be a little surprise. No, but I mean like, you know what? I did, uh, really savour it. I feel bad that I started the book probably like the week before Thanksgiving and I

finished it like, uh, but you know, I did. I was like reading like a little bit every night. I feel like that's the way. I mean, it's a long book. That's the way to get through it. It's a long book, but I do like how you break it up at the chapter. So there was lots of good, like, like, what were there? Like 60 chapters.

It was a lot. Yeah. So it was, you know, a couple pages. Then you need a good place to stop and then go back and forth. So I really did enjoy it. I think people will too. Of course, you can check it out. Stevenfishback.com.

Anything else you're doing special this week for the launch? I got a reading tonight at Politics Pros at 7 p.m. Assuming it's not snowed out. Well, you read from page one. I'm actually not reading. I'm like, it's a Q&A. Dalton Ross is supposed to be doing it. So he'll be asking the cues and I'll be giving the A's.

And then coming to New York, well, then Austin on Thursday. And then on Friday I'll be in New York City with Emily Nussbaum at the Strand. Well, that's, I feel like he's going to be a very fun one because, of course, her book going through the history of reality TV I read last year. And I did a really good interview with her. Not to say that my interviewing was a good. She was very good in an interview with me going through everything to talk about Q the Sun. Yeah, which also ends in an exclamation point. Q the Sun, yes.

And also her book talks very much about some of the shady producer practices over the course of the history of reality TV. And she talks to a lot of reality TV producers in her book. It's a great book. I mean, I thought I knew like everything about Survivor until I read that book. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like there's so much stuff that happened that I have no idea about. And it's all like so messy. So if you like reality TV and like mess, you might also like, you know, cue the sun by Emily,

that's Bob. Okay. All right. Stephen, anything else you want to tell people about? No, I just want to say thank you. I really just like, you know, you have been so amazingly supportive every part of this. You have like kept me sane when I felt my least sane. You have been like provided me this like constant like place to shill my, my book.

And you're just a wonderful friend. You know, I'm obviously not surprised that you're asking great interview questions, but I moved. I guess I'm touched by like how much thought and care you, you know, you've put into it. And I really appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for saying it. But I mean, listen, you're like, we're in this together. I mean, this is how many years of doing what we started podcasting to, you know,

doing the know-it-alls in 2012. So we're deep into this thing. Wow. There's no getting out. You're stuck with me. Yes, escape. Yes. No escape.

Yes. Yes. Escape. But no, I'm super, I'm extremely proud of your accomplishments to be able to put this together. This was, you know, look, I wrote a book also, but I wrote a book about something that is like, this was, it was like a no brainer for me to write a book about Survivor and what I actually talk about on the podcast. for you to put something together that is not just like a, you know, something that was not easy to do to put so much of your soul into this. I just, you know, have so much appreciation for your ability and your effort to do that. So I'm so proud of you.

That means the world to me. I hope you let me turn the tables on you in May when the tribe and I have spoken come out. sure absolutely but today this is all about Stephen escape check it out and then of course listen um let's get back together and and talk to people who've read the book yeah well thank thank you truly rob thank you so much all right thank you so much for joining us here talking about escape and of course we got so much coming up uh steve and i have been talking about beast games on the beast games book club and of course survivor 50 is around the corner so stay tuned for that here on RHAP. Take care everybody. Good one. Bye.

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