RHAP: We Know Survivor - Stephanie Berger on How To Not Be First Out

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Today, Rob Cesternino invites Survivor 48's Stephanie Berger onto the podcast to discuss how NOT to get voted out first. 

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Hey, everybody, what's going on? Rob Sesternino, back here with you. And season's greetings, we are ready. We are ready to jump into that time of year as we kick off Survivor 49 this week. And this is such a treat to be able to do a podcast like this. We've never done anything like this before. us to join us to talk about how not to be the first person voted off of Survivor. It is the incredible first boot from Survivor 48.

It's Stephanie Berger. Stephanie, how are you? Hi, Rob. I'm, oh my God, the bell. Three bells. There are so many bells. So many. I'm great, man.

How are you? Yeah, I'm doing really well. I'm very excited to get the chance to talk to you on a podcast. I think this is going to be a real treat for the listeners. and for me, but let me ask you this question. Stephanie, what makes you qualified to be a guest on a podcast of how not to be the first boot? This is a those who can't do segment, right?

Like, I think... You don't have to go down the road I did. No, but like, actually, if I can stop one potential first boot from becoming a first boot in the future, like my mission will be achieved. Great. Well, I know you did a lot of research going into play your game on Survivor 48. So I'm looking forward to hearing your process as, you know, that they do this in business in a lot of ways, a lot of successful companies. And I know you are a successful businesswoman

of like when something goes wrong. Often there's an autopsy of like, okay. And really, you know, I haven't done this yet in my business but like when they work on an idea sometimes you think okay the idea has failed what went wrong and sort of like can you preemptively do that autopsy and maybe that's what we're doing for somebody yep uh so we so i work for amazon uh we do something called a correction of error when there's a problem in amazon like we will go back and we'll look into the five whys we'll see what the root cause was we'll try to assign mitigating actions uh I guess that's kind of what I was emulating here.

I don't think I thought about it that way. We also, so I'm a product manager. We will do something sometimes right before something launches called a premortem. Pre-mortem. That's the word I was looking for. There you go, there you go. So like a post-mortem is obviously like it's the autopsy. It's like, tell me why I died, right?

But a premortem is, okay, if it's going to go badly, like what is going to happen? I guess that's like I actually had not made that connection until you just said it. But yeah, that's kind of what we're doing right now. Okay. Stephanie, how are you doing outside of Survivor? Oh, really good. I'm lovely. I'm living in New York. Life is good. Okay. All right. Well, happy to have you here. And so why don't we jump into this? Where do you want to start this discussion? Okay. So you said, I think, at the start of this, that I did a lot of research before my season, which is true. but I have spent some time thinking about the things that I did as a mistake here.

And I think my first big mistake was I spent a lot of time studying winners. Okay. This is interesting. This is a good insight. I actually think, and that's like, that's part of what prompted this, right? Like, studying winners is cool. Winners are great. What is the, like, Russian author that says, like, you know, all happy families are the same.

All unhappy families are, like, unhappy and wide. Right. There you go. Thank you very much. You got to go kind of Tolstoy and go look at the losers, I think, to really get into like what is going to drive a loss. It's more important to learn what not to do than to learn what to do is what you're saying. Yeah. And there's an entire podcast. Like I'm not trying to reheat a Jess and this name is David, right? I'm not trying to reheat their nachos. No one has ever reheated their nachos. That's never happened before. I will not be reheating their nachos. But I do think that like if I had actually taken the time to look at things that drive losses versus things that drive wins, like I was so focused on a win that you forget that you need to not lose on the way there. And I think that that's like one of my one of my key insights.

Yeah. Okay. So that's that is driving this. How do you do that practically? How do you focus more on the players that lose? than the players who win. I mean, you obviously do a great job of making sure there's lots of material on this.

So, like, you can listen to exit interviews. You can watch episodes of folks who, like, remind you of yourself or who you think could remind you of yourself. Stephanie, who reminded you of you? As a loser? No, I mean, well, I think as when you were going in, or you're saying you didn't do this. No, I don't feel like I did.

I feel like I really, like, leaned in on, like, well, which winner am I going to emulate? I think even, like, we, you know, that's a question that gets asked, right? Like, you know, Mike Bloom and Dalton are going to ask you, like, who are you planning? Who strategy are you planning to emulate? And I wonder if it's like, well, who do you not, what pitfalls do you not want to fall into? Or what are the traps do you think that you could maybe fall into? Yeah. Stephanie, do you feel like looking back at your season, do you feel like that you were, did you

not execute or were you unlucky? And I feel like that there's probably like a degree to which on the scale of didn't execute to unlucky, where did you fall? So I feel like you're getting into it. You're like secretly asking about something without explicitly asking about it, which is like, well, let me ask when you say like luck, are we are we like bringing up the like disaster tribe theory, right? Like are we getting into like, were you, were you in a situation that was an unwinnable

situation. This wasn't what I came into this podcast to talk about, but I actually listened to a book earlier this year that was called, I believe it was Thinking in Betts by Annie Duke, who that many reality TV fans may know from Celebrity Apprentice. She's a poker player. And she would talk, she was talking about how sometimes you can have good process and by way of just like in poker, you could have played the hand perfectly, but it was an unlucky hand. It was a bad hand.

And no matter what you could have done, the cards were bad. And sometimes you get a great hand and play it horribly. No, I think, yes, I think that those things are true and probably like in all things in life. Like, it's a little bit of both, right? Yeah. But I think if I really look back on my time, right, like we came down in our tribe colors. It is 2 a.m. We are eating breakfast before we're going to go out. And I think immediately, I like literally like write it in my journal like I'm on the disaster tribe, right? Like I look

around. I see who's in green and I'm like, this is not going to go well. Where and like it, you know, the vibes of the vibes in pregame like you're you're kind of looking around. I'm like, Mary is reading a book upside down at five o'clock in the morning in the tents before our, like, press day. Why? Why did she read a book upside down? Bro, I don't know. We got to ask Mary that.

Was it to throw people off? Did she not have her glasses on? No, I think, like, literally that was just like a comfortable position for me. Like, that's... Oh, she was upside down reading a book, not that she wasn't reading a book flipped over. no that would be actually fucking insane that would be wild if she was like reading a book upside down just to like throw us all off but no like you just like we I didn't get a lot of vibes off the people that I was that I sort of saw come down and green in the first place but I think if you like figure out okay I think this is going to be a tough group of people for me personally to play with or that we might be a little outgunned when it comes to a challenge I think you have to you have to you have to play differently. And it's embarrassing a little bit to look back on my own journal and be like, wow, I had the, I had the insight and then I didn't have the execution and do the things that I think

you would need to do differently. Yeah, because I think you probably, and I don't know, which was the winner that you said you thought you were going to try to play like? Oh my God, they're so embarrassing to say now. Who was it? Parvety? No, no, no, no, no, no. I love, she's amazing, but I don't think I don't think I've got parb in me. I don't know. I like loved Kim Spradlin. I love a Natalie Anderson. I love a Jam Jam. Sure. And so I think that probably if you were going to be like a Kim, you probably thought you were going to come in and hey, I'm going to not be, you know, coming in and scrambling off the bat. I'm going to play this cool because that's what Kim would do. Kim wasn't coming into the game and running around and trying to, you know, really, you know, make magic happen

in the first three days of the game? Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. But I think as soon as you, so like, let's take some odds on this, right? There are three tribes. And if you think that there is going to be a tribe that's not going to lose, right? So let's like take Loggy, I think they pretty handily win. Remind us which one is Loggy. Yeah, yeah.

Loggy is purple. It's your California girls. It's your Joe. It's your Eva. It's Shaheen. Shaheen, Thomas, Bianca. Star. Yeah, I said Star.

Okay. I got, I got a star. Yeah, we got them all. We got all six of them. Two of Jeff's favorite all-time players. Pretty great. Yeah. And so, you know, you look at a tribe like that, and you're like,

okay, they smoke us out of the marooning challenge, right? Like both the other tribes, I think, are still at that point trying to get up the wall, and they've already like, lands it all the little things on the things, right? At that point, right, you're basically in a 50-50 horse race. It's our tribe versus another tribe that are probably not going to win the immunity challenge. And I think if you were in a situation where you think you've got 50% or greater odds, of going to the first tribal, as soon as you hit the beach, like feet in the sand, you've got a, it's a warm body strategy at that point.

It's like, you are standing near me, you are standing near me, you are standing near me, it's time to make your fort. And you don't have the luxury of waiting. And we saw in your season where it seemed like that say was somebody who really did recognize that, where that there was a scene, and I don't know if any of this was played out of order, but it seems like that she is talking with you and Mary and you all are like, hey, we just got here. And she's like, listen, I got to get my foregoing. No, she, does she make it farther than me? Absolutely. Right. Like, that is, that is the strategy.

I think you look around, you think you've got greater than 50% or greater odds of going to the first tribal. It doesn't matter if you do or don't want to work with the people who show up on your beach it doesn't matter like pick find the people standing nearest you who you think you can lock in with and lock in and i and i think like you sit around and you want to be like let me get more data i want to see who i could really go far with i want to see who i'm going to be able to work with really well over time it's just not going to like you're going to you are going to fall behind i like can only imagine the producers that rooted for me during casting sitting there being like what the fuck is she doing move faster yeah and i think that this is also a new era you know especially

phenomenon and in the old days not to sound like grandpa on his podcast but you know i think you did have more time in terms of like a bigger group of eight or ten people to be able to play it out and you could wait a little bit more you know that maybe there were somebody who was on the outs but But it wasn't locked in in a way where in six people, you could get locked out of the first vote. I mean, no one would talk to me. They get so locked that I cannot make inroads talking game with a single person for essentially, aside from Mary, who like, you know, she and I are also like talking about like Ricky and tarot cards. Well, we can't make inroads or I can make inroads with anybody to talk game strategy. Like Kevin even tells me I'm his number two.

you know like like it is not I am not able to have those conversations and it's in some ways I also just might have been like off putting to people but in some ways it is just simply like things lock up and then you're you are truly on the out so I would say um future players you go out there particularly on a six person tribe like finding your four is really key and I think you can let perfect really quickly be the enemy of good enough you need to get good enough together because ultimately like yeah you can get pushed out really fast yeah okay Stephanie what else did you take away from your experience that you think could help players in the future so um i mean i think coming back to the idea of a disaster tribe

I think this is something that is starting to become a thing. Like players are aware of it. This was the first year that Mike Bloom actually asked about it in his interviews. Like, what are you going to do if you're on the disaster tribe? We've seen more than half of seasons in the new era where a tribe is getting decimated down to two or three people. And I think that that's living really present in players' minds. And as somebody who was on essentially a tribe that that happens to, I have, I guess, like a broader reflection on it, which is that I think it can be a little bit more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than we initially give.

Then we like, yeah, I think my initial reflection coming out of it was like, man, there was no chance. And now I look back on it and I'm like, I don't know. I think we could have maybe gotten something together. So do you feel like, and Kevin also got hurt here to shoulder in the first challenge. So you felt like that there was a disaster tried potential before you even went out there. And then on top of that, then there was an injury to the person who was like on paper, your most physical player. But you feel like that part of this was also a self-fulfilling prophecy?

I think, look, you get a group of rational people. together and you sit around and you know that you are going, you know that there is a tribal coming, right? And at a certain point when you believe that the likelihood of a tribal increases and increases, it decreases your willingness to work together and to see this as a truly like collaborative tribe environment. And you're just looking at it around and Like, who are the two or three that I want to make it to the swap with, right? Who are the two or three that I want to make it to the merge with versus like, do we have any shot of walking into a merge as an intact tribe?

Because we believe like half of us are going to be gone. Does any of that present itself in the challenge where like if somebody is screwing up the puzzle, are you sort of like, you know what, I'm just going to let this person, you know, choke in the puzzle because I don't remember the circumstance you were the person that choked on the puzzle yeah no definitely don't do the puzzle like I cannot emphasize enough and particularly on my tribe it was not a group of people that wanted to volunteer for things right like you might recall you mentioned this right Kevin gets injured in our marooning challenge and then they literally like medical comes they take his arm they like

shove it back into his socket. And then Jeff goes, okay, you two tribes, our tribe, Vula, and then Siva. So that's got like Kyle, David, Charity and Camilla and Chrissy. And who is the last person? Mitch. Mitch. Thank you. Oh, my God.

Mitch don't miss. You've got that crew. Did you see the video today? It's so good. No, I didn't see a new video. You didn't see it? A new Mitch video just dropped. You got to go watch the video of all of us doing that in the pool.

They literally are like, okay, you guys and you guys, who are you going to send to go earn your supplies in a challenge? And our group looks at each other and we send Kevin. We send the guy who just had his arm shoved back in to its socket. That's who we send. And why did you pick Kevin? Was it out of fear of better hands? him than us or that you still thought he was the best chance or I don't want to screw it up. No, I think like somebody literally was like, Kevin, like you can redeem yourself.

Like, and I'm like standing there being like redeem himself like he got injured. But I think that's crazy. What are we doing? And it actually so like full to, I mean, people don't remember this. You don't know. One who is watching this, I'm sure you don't even remember who I am. But like the like Kevin winds up actually winning that challenge. it's incredible he comes back with the pot and the flint and we like lose our minds and then

they never have flint again so it doesn't really matter yeah but we like Kyle breaks his bottle because Kyle well I know but like if you actually ask those guys like Kevin was ahead blah okay I'm not I'll let the two of them battle for how that went but the the headline here right is like we're one standing out and volunteering for something was like not the culture on my tribe. And I was like, well, no one else will do the puzzle. I guess I'll do the puzzle. Terrible idea.

Don't do it. And particularly if you're on a group of people, if you're over the group of people who are all like, yeah, I'm not going to do it either. Like, I don't know. Like you really is super high risk, high reward. Like you are putting yourself in a situation where you make it very easy for them to come up with a reason to cut you. And it's a reason.

that like nobody really can argue with because everybody just saw you do it. Like if you're bad at carrying something heavy, but you're all carrying it at the same time, nobody sees it. Nobody sees it. But if you're bad at a puzzle or if you're like having a hard time putting in the pieces, like everybody is going to see that. It's such an interesting predicament where it's like sort of you are down and you're in trouble and it seems like that the only way out is to, you know,

the proverbial Hail Mary, not the person that you played with who did hit the Hail Mary on the shot in the dark. But you're in such a bad situation and it's like, okay, well, the only way out might be to go further in. And it's such a catch-22. Well, yes. And you also, like, I think you're going to battle with and everybody's going to have to figure this out for themselves, but you're going to battle with the feeling of like, I want

control over my own destiny and you don't have anything. that moment, right? Like, you're sort of subject to the whims and the fancies of your tribe mates, and you're like, well, but if I can get this one thing, right, maybe I can, like, find my way through. And, of course, like, no one goes out there actually to not play. Like, you go out there and you're like, yeah, I want to do the challenge. Yeah, I want to do the puzzle. I want to do the hard things that are part of the game. So you're dead on, Rob, where it's like, it is a balance. But you also, like you really do have to fit in with the culture of the people you're playing with. And I think I struggled there in particular.

Do you feel like other than saying yes to say when she says, do you want to make an alliance? Do you feel like, is there something that you did that you feel like that you wish you could have done differently and that would have changed things? Yeah, I mean, like, if I will be famous for anything, maybe it's like staring at the stars or maybe it's the like I said I was going to sit on my hands when I played, right? I'm, like, not a hand sitter.

No. I, like, I am sort of a person who can't, like, the reason I had to sit on my hands is because I can't help but do the thing very often. And it is sort of how I operate. But the thing I said to myself, I even, I might have even said it in my pregame press was, like, I don't want to drive the first vote. I don't want to do it. I don't, right?

Like, I want to play like Kim. I don't want to have to scramble and I don't want to have to make the decision. I want to let somebody else take the call and then go from there. But if you are the target, you do not have the luxury of deciding you don't want to drive the boat. Like, you have to say, okay, I'm at risk here. Camilla does it beautifully, right, in our season. I think she's, like, famous. Her, like, riding the bus over people is, like, an absolute icon moment for her.

if somebody has got your name in their mouth you have to go after them you do not have a choice it's no longer option and you cannot sit back because no one cares no one's going to no one's going to back you they don't know you right it's like the idea of everybody wants to be under the radar but once you are squarely on the radar like now it's time for like evasive maneuvers like you because they've got their target locked on you you can't go under the radar now they've already We got you in their sights. No, I think that's exactly right. And so, like, this is what I mean when I say.

I feel like I had all the insight. Like, I had the pieces. I was like, I had them. It's the meme of the woman with the math symbols around here. But, like, I was not putting them together and taking the action that you need to take. It's like, I knew. And this, like, might happen to people who go out there and who are fans of the game and who have studied the game, but maybe have not.

And like, I'm not like a, like, an ORG player. Like I wish I were. I probably should have done that too. I would put that on my like list of things I would do in the future to prep. But like you can't just know that something is going wrong. You have to know the kind of thing that you do. And as soon as somebody is working against you, it's game on. You have to go after them and you got to come up with any reason possible for it. Like Kevin voted for me. I would have I would have never voted for Kevin.

But why wasn't I being like, guys, he's injured? He's got to go. He's going to get MetaVact anyways. Like, let's pull him out the game. There were things I could have said or done. Yeah. But they might not have done that. And you might sleep a little better to think if I tried it.

But I don't think they were going to go for that. No. No. And like, look, hindsight is both 2020 and it's also some rose-ass color glasses here, right? Like, I can look back and be like, here's all the things I could have done. And it's back to. your original point, which is like maybe I played the very best hand that I could with the cars that I was dealt. It's possible. But when I think about things that I think I could have

done differently, trying to rally a vote against somebody else more effectively versus being like, what do you guys want? The purpose of- It would have been better. The reason why Annie Duke was talking about that in terms of process is that sometimes like in Survivor I'm sure this happens all the time where players play a round of the game or play a season horribly and for whatever reason it works

but it's hard for and that person comes away feeling like I'm the best I did it I did amazingly it's like well actually like none of that should have worked like you got incredibly lucky and there's also times and I'm not going to name names and some of the times where players played incredibly well and it didn't work out

and so it's very hard for us and the difference is in poker people play thousands of hands of poker and we get often one shot to play Survivor and that's it game over no I think that that's I think that's dead on and if that's like

look if that's like helpful at all for a future first boot? Like maybe you're listening to this because you just got the call. You just spoke to someone in casting and you're like, let me shore up some of my strategy and let me make sure that I listen to someone who knows a very limited amount about how not to lose survivor. But like if you just lost, say you are the first boot, I think it is like of 49, right? we've got we've got a new one i am passing the torch imminently it's how it is helpful to think about like yeah you might have done the very best you could and in a different version you get a different outcome and like if that's not why we watch this i don't know what it is like that

that's what makes this good it's why you can have 49 seasons of it like it's it's it's that um sort of like dynamic quality that that keeps this really fun for the viewers. Stephanie, I want to go back to Ponderosa. And, you know, in the Survivor 48 preseason, you were a figure that a lot of people mentioned. And of course, you know, that you're tall, like people see you. You're a very visible person at Ponderosa. I'm sure that played into, you know, you being like top of mind for a lot of people that are there. How do you think that the Ponderosa weighs into being a potential first boot? There is somebody, in casting who has said that you can't win the game during the pregame, but you can lose the

game during the pregame. And I think that that's probably not entirely, like, those people know what they're talking about. I think standing out for any reason can be really challenging. There are, God, there's some people, though, who stood out really hard in pregame, like the Shaheen's of the world, man, he stood out at two pregame. You know, like it didn't matter for him. He makes it, he makes it quite far in the game and he makes a deep run. Caleb is another person I think of who like was sort of famous for standing out on the 45 pregame and also makes a pretty deep run. Like it happens that people stand out.

There's, there are things you cannot fix. And honestly, like, production don't want you to, you know, like they want you to show up the way that you looked. when they said, come on down and we want to have you in the season. So, like, you're not changing that. And there are people who, like, loved that I watercolored in pre-game. You know, I've always been curious about that.

Did you brought paint to Ponderosa and then you had an easel? Like, or you were at your table. No, but, no, I brought watercolors and you should know that one of my watercolors is framed and sits on a bedside table in Cedric's house. So all is great with the world. Yeah.

But yeah, I brought watercolors. Look, I just, like, needed an activity that was going to make my brain not, like, lose itself there. But, yeah, it probably wasn't the right one. Yeah. I remember that there was something, did say feel like there was something that you were doing at Ponderosa that got under her skin? I think it was the painting She didn't like that Yeah

But also like people are going to I think I said this when you and I chatted back in February Like you get cast By being a person who is somewhat polarizing That's what makes you fun on TV And so like you're not gonna really be able to hide that And even the people who

maybe were kind of like Not super noticeable During Ponderosa or that didn't really make a huge impression, some of the biggest personalities that I know now on the show. Is it any consolation when you look back at how the season played out to say that, you know what, this probably wasn't going to be my season anyway?

Oh, like a season that wasn't for the girls and the gays? I mean, I didn't say that, but you were no, did anybody from your tribe end up going far into the game? Mary comes in seven. Mary got the furthest, but it was really, she was like, could not crack that core group, which was really people, like the, you know, stronger guys and people from the other tribe and Kyle bringing in Camilla. And she has an extraordinary break of luck, right?

She does, she, I play my shot in the dark, no, no luck. She plays her shot in the dark. Even if you got out, though, it doesn't feel like you go on to win this season. I mean, I, that, that's. like one of those you know you really never know but i do look two i'm of two minds on this one which is there are some formidable duos and trios that make it out of a decimated tribe that go on to absolutely demolish the competition they are forged in fire you look at like a kensi win you look at a jam jam win those are very uh impressive mirror wins like you can do that the key is if you know this is like a

other essay, right? But the key is that you have to come out of this pre-merged period with more trust for each other versus less trust for each other. And so, like, I don't know. It kind of depends, like, who from Vula makes it out. But if Vula makes it out, I don't know. The more fun, bro, we were three puzzle pieces away. The more fun thought experiment is like, what happens if we send Siva to the first tribal? Interesting. And who would have gone out? Oh, man. I don't I don't know where their diamics were. I don't know. That's Kyle and Camilla's tribe?

That's Kyle and Camilla's tribe. Charity? Maybe. I don't know. I like I don't know where she, it seems like the edit from that episode kind of puts her like as the one who's like throwing out names being shady. But who knows.

Yeah. Like actually. All right. Stephanie, I know we're running short on time tonight. Yep. Okay. But I want to love to know you and Mary talked about the

tarot cards that did the tarot cards tell you anything about your survivor game or is there anything that like in retrospect looking back something that you may be misinterpreted i oh like things that i misinterpreted like did what what i'm sure you drew cards before you went to go play right oh my god i actually I did. I don't know what they were. I would have to get my, I don't think I have it handy. Did you feel good after the reading? Oh yeah. I felt good. I got on that plane. I walked into the hotel, like the Ponderos Hotel. I always felt really good. I felt like I was exactly where I was supposed to be. And sometimes that's exactly where you're supposed to be. Yeah. And you're also just going to happen to be the first person eliminated and it is what it is.

Well, Stephanie, listen, you were supposed to be here with me today, and you come back anytime you are a delight to talk to. And I think that you have really interesting insights about the game. I think that you have some unconventional opinions, which we love on the podcast because we hate samey same on the podcast. So thank you so much. And this was a great idea for a podcast. I'm glad you came up with it.

Thanks. I really appreciate you giving me the time, Rob, and I would talk to you literally any time you want. Okay. I'll take you up on that. All right. Stephanie, where can people keep up with you? Oh, I am on Instagram at Stephanie Burger Face. I think that's also my TikTok handle, but don't quote me. and I believe my Twitter is at Steffberger. I have no, I have nothing to plug. I am not selling anything. I am like absolutely delighted with exactly my two and a half minutes

of confessional time and fame. Not even watercolors for any interested parties. No, I don't have a cameo. I don't make watercolors except when I want to piss people off. during pregame and obviously for Cedric McFadden. Okay. All right.

Stephanie, thank you so much. Thanks, everybody for checking out this podcast. This was a really fun one to dive into. We, not like heaven, though. And we are going to get into everything on the Survivor Know It All after the episode on Wednesday night. Take care. We have a good one. Bye.

my life, breaking down Survivor and Big Brother's strategy. But what about strategy for real life? That's why I love the podcast, all the hacks. It's hosted by Chris Hutchins. He is the goat of life hacks, and I love life hacks wherever I can get them. Now, Chris, he's sold two companies. He's racked up millions of rewards points and figure out how to travel around the world business class without paying business class prices. Whether you're looking to level up your travel, money or relationship, there's an episode of all the hacks for you. I just listened to an episode Top 50 Ways to Upgrade Your Life, Money, and Travel. I use this this summer. I emailed the hotel before our anniversary trip. There was a bottle of champagne waiting for us in the hotel. Who was

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