RHAP: We Know Survivor - Summer of Survivor | Hot Mess Tribe Tier List

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

This week, with Rob Cesternino away, Shannon Guss and Mike Bloom are joined by Mary Kwiatkowski (@frailmary) to tier list hot mess tribes from Survivor.

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Whatever you choose, your espresso will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. This episode is brought to you by Companion. Iris and Josh seem like the perfect match. But when a weekend getaway turns into a nightmare iris realizes that things aren't as perfect as they appear from the creators of barbarian in the studio that brought you the notebook comes a twisted tale of modern romance and the sweet satisfaction of revenge companion only Only in theaters January 31st. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Summer of Survivor.

My name is Mike Bloom. And listen, we are looking ahead to the fall, the next season coming up. But today we are going to be talking about many, many falls because a lot of these tribes had some downfalls in the game of Survivor. Today, we're throwing it back a little bit about what Outplay Outlist, a tier list of not just any Survivor tribes, but some of the biggest hot mess tribes in Survivor history. Of course, I'm not alone here. I'm joined each and every week by one of the co-hosts here on Summer of Survivor, Shannon Gush. Shannon, how are you? I'm great.

I'm glad that we're doing this because I feel like disaster tribes are such a big part of the conversation at the moment, right? I do love that you started with, I'm glad we're doing this. That already passes the smell test of like, was this a good idea to do? If the co-host says this was a good idea. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm the one who had the extreme agency in whether we did it. We came up with this idea together and I'm glad we're doing this.

Absolutely. Well, I am very excited to bring in this third party. Of course, Rob is away for the week, but this person will very much rise to the occasion. Look, she kept a tennis ball on her head for 15 hours so she could handle the asylum where these people were raised in the form of these hot mess tribes. So excited. Welcome to the podcast, Mary Krakowski. Hi, everyone. I'm so glad to be here. You know, I was just

ranting before this podcast started about how I rarely get asked to be on fun things. And today is no different. I have been on a hot mess tribe once or twice myself um usually uh fake ones that don't actually exist but like when we play sports like kickball and stuff we do a brant steel with my friends um in order to see like the kicking order and things like that and i i've been i've been out first like multiple times. Okay, wait. God, we don't have a lot of time, but I need to like quickly pick into this. So you figure out like your batting order essentially by running a brand steal?

Yeah, of course. How else does anyone do it? Isn't that normal? I think I've found someone that descended my obsession with said software in the form of Mary. That is incredible. That's like kind of shaking up the magic eight ball to determine every decision you make on a daily basis. Pretty much.

I recommend it's a fun way to make decisions for anything. Well, we all do that. Mike, you have the magic eight ball. I have the bigger balls. Mary will do it through a grand steal. And that's all our decisions will be made. Well, regardless of what the decision making device might be be we have a lot of decisions to make today so this is something that rob and i did back during god i want to say it was maybe like the summer of 2022 uh where we did a series of podcasts where we

did tier lists featuring a various amount of survivor topics i believe actually you both were on editions of that podcast. And we're bringing it back today to talk about a very specialized subject in Survivor. Hot mess tribes across 46 seasons. Some tribes rise, some fall, some rise, then fall, some fall, then rise. It's a very broad definition of what makes a hot mess tribe. And it's something we're going to talk about today. definition of what makes a hot mess tribe. And it's something we're going to talk about today.

I have cut out a selection of 20 tribes across Survivor history that we are going to be put into a tier list that is evaluated later on. But let's do sort of like a quick around the horn and get a general view of the criteria we're each kind of walking in with. Shannon, do you have a sense as to how you're going to be adjudicating what hot mess tribes beat out other ones i thought we were going to come up with that collectively um because it is tough we all have to have the same criteria right otherwise this will be a hot mess and may not be appropriate it would be i feel like to me this podcast is just testing for mary if we are less or more painful if like two hours we are less or more painful, if like two hours with us is less and more painful than eight and a half hours with a ball on your head. Well, no, it wasn't. How much longer was it?

It wasn't eight and a half. It was like 15. Yeah. It was $150. That's why. Okay. Yeah. So that's, I think like a good barometer. No, I feel like it's hard because a lot of the great hot, hot mess tribes have like success. Like they have like a winner. They have, well, like they might, you know, yeah, make it to the end. Some completely flame out. What's more hot messier? Are you a better hot mess tribe if you don't make it to the end at all? Are you a better hot mess tribe if you have success? Mary, tell me what I think.

So I think that like keeping in mind some of the stats from the situation helps. Like if you have a tribe where let's just theoretically say, theoretically, that like 95% of your tribe doesn't make the merge, that's like, that's kind of a hot mess and a good thing to count for. But I think there is a difference between a hot mess tribe and just a very losing tribe because- Hot mess versus hot, a cute mess. Yeah. Because part of it is like, they have, you can be good. You can have a good, a good, well-placing tribe, but they don't get along. And it's like, okay, they, they work together in challenges, but nowhere else. And I think there's a lot of, uh, tribes like that, that are

fun. I think sometimes a hot mess tribe is just, you know it when you see it. You know, when you're having discussions about coming to, you know, kill someone in their shitty apartment, kind of a hot mess situation. So I think sometimes, you know, when you see it, and I think that there will be at least a few that if we're like, hmm, I don't really remember this tribe, probably lower than the hot mess scale. Yeah, that's a really good criteria. I knew we'd work it out on the podcast because i do think we don't want to just be ranking the worst tribes in order of how bad they are yeah because that would be a different thing and i do think yeah iconicness big one okay and then we'll think of more

a hot mess tribe that when you see it, you see it. And yeah, suffice to say, we're going to run the game in here. That's the entire purpose of the list. Maybe they're not always going to be bangers, but that is the fact of the matter when it comes to this type of experiment. Let's just dive in, shall we? Now, listen, we have a long storied history of hot mess tribes across Survivor, but let's arguably start with one of the first

pagong yeah this is an interesting one because again the waters were very much untested in survivor borneo and pagong was the one that despite beating the rafting queen kelly in one challenge were the ones that were kind of typically lazing about in the water. While the Toggies were riding around on jet skis strategically, they were sitting in tubes, drifting down the lazy river and as a result, capsized. And so I think really where the hot mess element comes in is, of course, the post-merge portion where the Toggie four in particular are able to get a leg up. Of course, the infamous four to one to one to one to one to one to one vote and then subsequently never really getting on the same page to allow them all to get a leg up of course the infamous four to one to one to one to one to one to one vote and

then subsequently never really getting on the same page to allow them all to get taken out so before we get into the the ranking and rating proper shannon any spare thoughts about pogong i do think that the tribes should gain points in the tier list if they become a verb like the fact that it's like so historic decades on where we say like it's a begonging that's pretty bad like that legacy is very unfortunate there's probably only one other tribe oh i guess like the intentional massing that's going to be important longing i think is a bit of a thing but begonging that's like really in the dictionary of survivor for being completely destroyed post merge which was really on them you know they were like yeah i mean i guess maybe because there wasn't a blueprint but some of it should have been pretty common sense i think that what was happening like

right in front of their eyes so for me they'll probably be up pretty high because by the one criteria i already have which is they're iconic. Yes. And do we have more criteria? They're memorable. I guess that's pretty similar to iconic. Does anyone have any more criteria? So I think some of it is I'm trying to think of how to quantify this. You're really a numbers person. You're freaking Shannon's language today, which I love. Yeah. Yes. So I think some of it is how like uh, like goofy is not exactly the right word, but, but how much were they,

were they fighting and arguing? How well did they get along? And I would say when it comes to Pagong, like they, they were okay. They had a core, they had some, some ability to stick together,

but they did not have that strategic mindset to go through the game. So they were kind of all these moving pieces, kind of being a little more laissez-faire, which made, to their credit, they didn't know that the other tribe was going to lock up and form alliances. But once it was clearly happening in front of their faces, I think at that point, it was obvious. Like beforehand, okay, fair. They didn't invent it first and it seems obvious to us now,

but it was difficult at the time. But I feel like they should have known once it was clearly happening. And I think it has to be mentioned that, you know, the first five votes of the season, or really you could count the first six, went back and forth. Tagi Pagan, Tagi Pagan. And then we have five more Pagongs in a row after that, that other one,

the highest placement a Pagong member gets is sixth. So the only person to chart on the box office so far from Pagong as well. Should that be factored into this conversation, Mike? Maybe it should. Maybe how memorable each player is. Cause how much, how much are we looking at it individually? should maybe how memorable each player is because how much are we looking at it individually because i feel like most people could name like every member of pogong well yeah let's let's move this discussion over as we get into the tier list as well so just to remind people what we're

working with again this is something that i cribbed from when we did this without way to play our list we have four tiers that we're working with top of the line worth playing for the best of the best the hottest messes of the hottest mess next tier my life is fine pretty good to okay on the messiness scale next tier down ain't no Hershey bar it's it's okay it's fine to maybe not so great and then finally that bottom wretched tear forget you go home goodbye to present perhaps represent one of the hot messiest seasons in the form of gabon i would at least put pagod like my starting bit on pagod would be in either my life is fine or like a low end worth playing for yeah wait okay sorry just to recap this messiest is going up top yes it's very hard yes because it's confusing they gain no it's good we love negative qualities

they gain that they gain points so they gain points for bad things and they lose points for good things so it's like oh they kind of got on now you lose points yeah that's so it's a little too kumbaya that's gonna knock you down baby i feel like i want it low on worth playing for at the moment because i feel like they set the blueprint for hot mess tribes they they they're like they're our ancestors wow their bones are turning to dust as they hear this. Yeah. Well, anyway, let's put them in for me. Worth playing for. Let's not touch that one. I could see it either being a very, very low worth playing for or the very top of my life is fine. Only because I think that we've got some other ones where just the personalities are a little more kooky.

little more kooky these people i give them they they're lowered down based on the fact that they uh get sort of a pass for being the first season and not really knowing what they should have been doing once once we get into you know the further seasons and they at least know what they should be doing in the game that's when they got no more credit right so okay another criteria is so getting on which they kind of do we're not getting on is the criteria. And then failing spectacularly, I think, should probably be up there. And they did. Yeah, it is one of the more like iconic downfalls of a group. We'll certainly talk about that. There are some tribes that are a little less memorable, despite the fact that maybe statistically or narratively there, their tribe ended up falling apart Pagong is probably the strongest from a story perspective out of this entire group considering that there was no pulling up out

of the nosedive once they were done they were pretty much done all in a row so we'll see how far that carries it but for right now it's going to be in at the top tier let's go from old school to a little more new school not new era but this is a really interesting case because we have technically two tribes we could feasibly talk about here. Let's go to Survivor Edge of Extinction. And so we have Manu, which is the David Wright, Kelly Wentworth, Reem, Rick Devins, Chris, et cetera tribe. And then that ends up winnowing down at the swap to

Lesu which was Five people from Manu So out of all this chaos where they Go to tribal council in the first three episodes They're granted this momentary respite of Great it's a swap there's Brand new faces nope We still have maybe some of the five of the most chaotic

People in this group remaining On the same beach together. Mary, give me your thoughts about the nine some turn five some in these two tribes. Yeah, this one's interesting because I would say if, you know, sight unseen when I was thinking up hot mess tribes, this one did not come to mind. But when you look at the picture and you remember the people. Wow. Wow. Yeah. the picture and you remember the people wow wow yeah uh i mean such off to such a great start with with ream obviously uh can't can't forget wendy as well so i'd say that i'd even lean a little bit more towards it being a hot mess towards the beginning i mean oh yeah oh we've got war dog too

and then of course what what is what is messier than someone getting voted out early in the game only to win? I would tell you one thing messier, someone who gets voted out only after them only to come back and nearly win and get defeated by the guy who won, who also got voted out. Also that. Yeah, this is interesting i i think i have a really hard time with memorability on this one because it's not it's not one that's going to pop instantly for me but i'd probably put it in maybe that second tier just just looking at the the people in it oh yeah shannon i hadn't like immediately thought of it either but this is why you're the foremost survivor expert mike because when you look at it a couple of things stand out firstly the portmanteau of the names is messu speaks for itself very good it was destined i think there's a few really funny

things here yes the fact that the winner played whatever a few days and is on this tribe um the fact that they couldn't get away from it and they were like so excited to and then they swapped into the exact same iteration like i remember always saying it and they were like so excited to, and then they swapped into the exact same iteration. Like I remember always saying that Devin's was like anti-swap screwed, um, because he assumed that he would get out of this situation. So like the votes were fine. He was kind of like tribe gerrymandered instead,

but they just kind of redrew the districts where it was now only the five of them. That's what everyone loves at this time in the morning, political jokes, um, explain gerrymandering to me. No. So, and like, look, Big Wendy, Keith Ream.

It's all kinds of there. Wardog. Yeah, but it's not that memorable, but it is a funny story when you think about it. Yeah, it's a weird thing because the narrative of Edge of Extinction is so all over the place. But like, also remember, there was a period of time in the middle of this game where everyone who was left on manu like

moving into the swap tribe or the merge tribe all went after each other there's that odd series of events where like kelly goes then david goes then war dog goes because they're all targeting each other you know they were going after rick and david towards the beginning as well so it also wasn't even a thing where okay okay, they went through the trenches, but once they reached the merge, they all solidify and move forward like some other tribes we're going to talk about. They kind of just kept at it throughout

to the point where we have Manu on Manu violence as they went Mano on Mano in the form of Chris and Rick against each other. And yet we get the winner, but also we get the winner in this way. So I don't know if it should win or lose points because again, my brain is broken on this. But because it's from Edge of Extinction, should it lose points

because it's Edge of Extinction? Should it gain points? Because what is a bigger hot mess than Edge of Extinction just as a concept and as a season? I'm trying to remember, refresh my memory. How well did any individual people get along? Because I feel like you had Kelly and Lauren and you had Rick and the other guy. I mean, I was, I mean, there was, I mean, they were,

the two people in this tribe who I have family members with the same name and I couldn't think of it. You're going to be like the returnee. I feel like that would be the one that would escape me. Well, I know they were. I mean, they were targeting each other pretty much from the beginning. Like there was an attempted coup on the returnees. And there was even that point during the pilots and passengers.

Tribal Council were like Kelly and David are like, let's put our guns down. We're targeting each other right now. Like, again, they never felt like a truly unified block now there was certainly not as much negativity as some of the other tribes will get into but there was certainly some uh tension i would say between all these various factions well also when you compare it to the other tribe that had the whole kumbaya aspect i feel like by comparison it was not as much of a love tribe yeah so i would probably put it right now in my life is fine i think memorability on paper would knock it down to ain't no hershey bar but i do think if you take a little bit more of a microscopic look at it that

there are a lot of messy things in there to put it in that tier it's like a fine wine no i don't know if that's true i don't really drink wine but do you know what it has it has a factor like that oh yeah that was funny that is interesting like all the details are there they wouldn't have come to mind immediately but it's like a niche pick where you think wow they did get a winner and an almost winner who both got voted out that's kind of impressive that's kind of messy that's kind of messu which would be their portmanteau so it's up there i think it's up there in my life it's fine yeah you're good with that mary i'm good with that all right well let us move into our first of many new era hot mess tribes because we're going with three tribes every season, and it sometimes becomes a habit that one tribe just keeps on losing.

And for Survivor 41, that was Uah. That was the Green tribe. This was the Ricard and Shan tribe. JD, Brad, Jeannie, Sarah. A group that wins, I believe, what, like one immunity challenge, technically, throughout the, what, like, one immunity challenge, technically, throughout the entirety of its run, and then ends up kind of emerging with a pseudo-Matsingh pair in Shan and Ricard,

who unfortunately do not replicate their success. Yeah, they don't. They're not Matsingh. Also, can we just point out Minnows in the chat who says, I love moments like this where I get to learn about seasons I will never watch when we talk about Edge of Extinction. Minnow, watch this season! No, this was about Edge of extinction don't watch it it could have

been an email watch the finale that's all that mattered okay and also the messu apparently the combined name that i'm now using were apparently really fun and interesting but don't make that you know don't think that that's what the season really was because anyway what were we saying well when it comes to uh you know i talked about this actually on the Wishlist podcast series that I think 45 and 46 are the new hotness that I wonder how, you know, we all look back upon 41 that they were the ones that kind of ended up being the progenitor of this new era curse of one tribe just basically falling apart. Mary, now that we're a few years removed from Survivor 41, do you think that helps or hurts their reputation? I don't know. I mean, I think that just going back like in the Survivor wish list, I thought so fondly on so many of the people from this tribe. And it's like, you know, at some point things become almost nostalgic. And while I don't think we have nostalgia for season 41 yet,

I think that when it comes to thinking back on hot mesh tribes, time can only help you. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard to argue with the stats. So we've got Ricard here with the furthest placement at fifth of this season from the tribe. Also like they have, they have the best of both being like a very losing tribe, losing so many of the early challenges.

Also just so many wild moves like the JD vote. I'll never forget about, you know, you've got Brad here. Who is just such a kooky character. He gets blindsided, like not unlocking his idol, but still having it in his pocket, but also having an extra vote that he couldn't use. He could not vote. He couldn't vote. No, he couldn't vote.

But he had an extra vote and an idol that wasn't activated. And that really summed up where we were three episodes into the new era of survival. Yes. And JD himself was also voted out with the vote steal or no, he gave it to Shan to use later on. Right. And then of course, you know, everything that the friends to enemies with, with Shannon Ricard, I feel like was so interesting.

Jeannie was such a great character. I think there's a lot here actually and i think like it's hard not to compare i mean that's what we're doing here we're ranking we're comparing but when you compare this to the the previous one we just talked about um in edge of extinction i feel like maybe it's because it's a smaller tribe like i feel like just as much if not more mess happened on this tribe with you know two-thirds of the people oh that's efficient yeah you're able to cram nine nine people's worth of mess into six people exactly yeah yeah and sarah didn't do anything what did

she do wrong so i feel like there's a couple of things here the first one being mike you said that it started kind of like the curse of these like new era disaster tribes is it a curse when production is putting them on the bad beach and they're taking away their food? It's a self-appointed curse. They gave up the poison apple. Yeah. It's just like, you know, throwing like a marble in front of someone. So they trip and then being like, well, it was fate.

Like the production led curse of new era disaster tribes of which there are so going to be so many in this tier list, because again, it is like a seasonal thing. And then you try and say that they were kind of like, know the matt sing and malcolm and denise but were they because malcolm and denise both made the finale one of them won um as we're saying neither you know the the highest placing of this malcolm denise pair didn't make it as much as far as like the losingest of of that pair it is early in the morning and my brain the question is does that make them messier you know and not even just exactly is that good

or bad because also not only that but like malcolm and denise were locked in you know like they were a really good duo they dominate through the game like that's the pair as we were saying like intentional matt singford for ages because of malcolm and denise like do that do that and then shanna Ricard came along fighting about who should have the advantage eventually blindsiding each other and we're like I don't think we meant intentionally Matt Singh like that and so this taught us the other side yeah that the other the other side of intentionally Matt singing which is that sometimes it doesn't go so well so again is that point or not what would be better that they did really

well they did really poorly i don't know all right well let's put our noises to the grindstone here and think about where we want to put ua now that we're starting to really compare these groups against each other you know i'll be intrigued this is our first new era tribe as shannon said there's going to be many that come before or after them so the question is is this the barometer or are we already sort of mentally comparing this to other hot mess tribes that would probably stand out more from a new era perspective i do think like every other new era disaster tribe is better yeah but i feel like this was more of a disaster. I think that this is higher than Mesu in My Life is Fine. I think I put it lower. I feel like it just like it was less winning than Matt Singh.

It's like a poor man's Matt Singh, but should that be better? No, I'm going to have to be- I mean, they got one more win than Matt Singh, so I guess that counts. Yeah, but like as a tribe, even the pair couldn't get along. They got down to two people and those people were feuding. And to this day, right? Like we're a Shannon Ricard now. I feel like that didn't end well.

Wait, so hold on. Do you think this is higher or lower? I don't know. You started saying they were lower and now you've. I honestly think that this was like, like, let's wake you up, get you on here at 8. And then you backwards think all of this. And my brain is broken, Mary.

You have to go a little bit with gut. And I feel like in the moment watching this season, I feel like there were so many things that happened that I can, I can look at the picture of messu and be like, wow, there were some wild people on that. But I feel like when you look at the, when you look at both the stats and just thinking about, um, I cannot remember these tribes.

Ooh, I'm like, they were messy. I mean, Maybe so maybe it's the color coordination in me. I would definitely put it in my life is fine. And at this moment, I think I would put it above. Okay you i i think i think this is where memorability comes in as well i think that messu could be this like criterion collection undiscovered movie that is showing on tmc one night and you're like oh actually i didn't realize that's what i said yeah yeah so but i think that ua does have i think while manu and lesu actually did target each other post-merch it was not nearly as iconic as the shannon ricard

turning on each other which again does feel like bizarro malcolm and denise yeah it was it was exceptional television that like they got so far together like this was going to be the duo and then it just like didn't go that way at all and I do feel like um for me the one thing that could take away from it is like at the time it's like oh this is such a disaster drive but then when it started happening every season and you did realize that it was just like a very big part of this format it was like oh okay so that's not like so original to them like that's gonna happen every twice a year we're gonna do that twice a year so I might put it a bit lower but you guys win and that's going to happen every twice a year. We're going to do that twice a year. So I might put it a bit lower, but you guys win. And that's why we have three people on these majority rules so that it doesn't just get stuck in an endless loop.

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you may have felt your argument was defanged, but let's put a little bit of fang back in there as we talk about Fong, our next hot mess tribe. Now, this is interesting. With some of these, we're talking about specific iterations of the tribe. I with like the og draft phong uh that was able to win a couple of challenges which maybe might work against it but certainly if you remember the like previously on survivor when jeff was narrating he would have painted them as like an absolute atom bomb in the game

that they were disasters and challenges that they had all these older weak people that they couldn't find a leader until GC was basically enlisted for it. And then he ended up running away during one portion of it. But what do you think, Mary? Looking back, how does Fong seem to be messy to you? Oh, my gosh. I mean, this is this is one of the first ones that comes to mind for me when I hear just the concept of being a hot mess tribe. Like you have you have someone trying to row away to not go to a challenge. You have instant fighting. I mean, look at this.

Look at this cast. You've got elephant dung up in here. You've got people trying to eat ants in order to impress each other there's so many so many gifts and screams and fighting um i mean crystal look at that look at the tribe look at the tribe yeah this is this is amazing so i'd say that that fong is this is very high for me i what's what's interesting about uh fong looking at the stats and it does get confusing because there are multiple iterations like you mentioned um they don't do terrible overall i mean we've got we've got suzy in second place here but we've also got you know crystal kenny and maddie

are all what uh six six six five four, five, four, six, five, four. Yeah, because because basically due to the multiple swaps, the Fongs are able to recruit sugar to their side. And while Randy does defect, that's when they take the lead in the merge and run the table for a bit of time

until Bob goes on his run. And then they kind of start going after each other. The one thing that's funny looking at this cast is if you had asked me, I'm not, you know, I've got some survivor memory, but I would have sworn that sugar was on this tribe to begin with and that she represents

falling a lot more than kodak yeah i think of randy as being like a very reluctant person he's like i'm i'm surprised he's not standing two feet away in this picture being like i don't want to be part of us no this is even better like look crystal's arm is around him he put his hand on gc but he looks so unhappy about it he looks like you know someone said get in there like i don't want to be in the picture and i wonder how soon this was after randy's head trauma as well oh my gosh exactly it's actually amazing because no one else in the photo is touching each other but he is being touched and is touching G. It's like, he would hate that the most, but like, why, why is he in this position? Why is this happening?

Is, is, is Michelle wearing someone else's jacket? Like there's no way that that. This looks like the, uh, the jacket of the late Dan Kay. I would imagine. Cause she was also like a boxer and they didn't necessarily send her in wearing her best business casual. Why does Randy look like he's like in like an old war photo? It's like you can tell he's like

seeing some stuff and he's like, but no one else is bringing that energy. Except like he and Crystal and GFee look like they're in a completely different photo from everyone else. Like what is happening? It helps too that Gabon is known as like a hot mess season. Like this is just one of the issues though.

That's my counterpoint. But I think if you, if you look at the two tribes, like there are some people in the other tribe, there are some things that happen, but most of the hot mess things that happen with the Cota tribe are after they've done some swapping around and have some Fong members on there. So, I mean, I, I put this one very high in my opinion. My criticism is what you just said which is gabon if we were ranking hot mess seasons gabon's number one does this tribe stand out as

you said you couldn't even remember the trigger wasn't on it there are going to be swaps pretty early on that i think define the season more. Does this iteration of these plays specifically stick out as this tribe? Even if people within this iteration are going to fight through the season and are iconic in their own right as characters, as feuds, does this iteration of this tribe

really stick out like a mad thing? But Shannon, she got in a boat and was trying to run away. I hear that. That's the thing. I think there are, like like this isn't just mess this is its own special breed of mess this is the tribe that brings you eat your rice uh this is the one that is obviously also if you talk about like does post-merge conflict boil over this is going to

lead to the aforementioned forget you go home goodbye where there is a lot of tension on the tier list which means that it should be the opposite of forget you go home goodbye because that's how we're thinking of things i i do think it's worth playing for the question is right now before or after pagong so i would have it after because i just think that pagong is so certified as a tribe in saying that every single time that my like season watch list comes out and Gabon is not high on it I get so many drive-bys that I'm just like what's happening out there um so I don't want that to happen to me here so I want to be outvoted and I want everyone to remember that I was very high on this being the highest possible drive I think I think my problem is I already feel

like Pagong is too high and I and I understand that like you get already feel like Pagong is too high. And I and I understand the like you get the name like Pagong and everything. But I think of a Pagong more as like you have one tribe that has their ish together more so than that than that Pagong didn't. That spectacularly fails. Yeah, I don't know. I just I think they lose so many points for me from being so early on that you really couldn't have expected them to do better. I think most people watching the first season of Survivor having no context for anything else about Survivor would have thought, wow, look at the Tagi tribe getting together. And they would have gone, yeah, but they should be playing like Pagong. And it's only in retrospect that you realize how badly Pagong did it. You're less judgmental than I am.

Cause I feel like had I like been watching at the time and had been an adult, I would have been like those idiots. I don't think I've ever seen a better out of context quote for this podcast than Tommy Tomato saying, Shannon is Tupac confirmed. Yeah, no, I think it speaks for itself. Exactly. I am going to once again, agree with Mary here. I am going to once again agree with Mary. Here I am going to slot it above Pagong.

Just because to me, I think personality hot mess wins out over strategic hot mess. That's already where I'm not at. This is going to be an issue. This is interesting. This is where I bought the stats. I did bring the stats. But what I think is for me, what's interesting about the stats is just, I don't think that this is only about the losingest. So for me, a hot mess tribe where it's, where they're going very back and forth, where they're, where they're voting out their own people once they've merged and stuff.

To me, that is so much more of a hot mess than just someone who like loses a bunch of early challenges. Possibly Uwe should have been higher because in talking about it, they do have both. Yeah. I don't know. We'll see we can always ship these around well i've got some double trouble for you as we're doing back to back randy bailey seasons this is what i want to bring up for discussion here let's talk about the villains from heroes versus villains this is an interesting one this is going to be the first

i think of a few we're going to talk about where if you look at the stats if you look at the record it's not necessarily there it's a pretty good record you got a few we're going to talk about where if you look at the stats, if you look at the record, it's not necessarily there. It's a pretty good record. Go to a few winners there. First and fourth on this tribe. And they won just as many challenges as the heroes. Like they were actually pretty in lockstep. But if you look at it from an interpersonal perspective,

once we get to that Tyson vote, it really falls apart. Where we have this, you know, minority vote out. Then we have Coach and jerry flipping on rob and then they end up flipping back to take out coach so from a conflict perspective they obviously are at odds by the end of the merge but it then does culminate to them joining up together here's what's tricky for me is i feel like the villains tribe i don't think of it as a hot mesh tribe i think of it as a hot mess tribe I think of it as a divided tribe which I think is different I think that we have two relatively loyal warring factions

forget the Tyson thing for a moment but other than that like it is an iconic tribe with a lot of really great players and some great moves but I think you've just got like a Russell side and then a Robin Tyson side or you could even put Sandra you've just got like a Russell side and then a Robin Tyson side, or you could even put Sandra, you know, as the leader on that side. And so, yeah, they went after each other. They didn't get along. But I think for me, Hot Mess is more of a whole collective

group of people that are all firing at each other and all being wild. Yeah. This isn't a collective effort. This is the Russell factor. Where, yes, it's's like it is like the rob versus russell teams and then also russell's team will make it very far and be like the world sandra's there as the winner but like that's the winning group and sandra wasn't really on russell's

side but russell's side then will disintegrate because russell will vote out danielle out of jealousy like he and poverty are in like a very scary toxic relationship. So it's not like that went so well as well. But in saying that, I don't really think of the villains as a hot mess tribe. It will feel weird to put probably the most iconic tribe of all time in a low tier, but that's the fun of what we're doing, that it's opposite to what you think. Especially, I think that when you compare them with the Heroes tribe,

in some ways the Heroes tribe is more of a hot mess. It was fighting, they had drama, strategic issues. Yeah, Heroes started off, you know, absolutely yelling at each other and you have some very divided dynamics. But once Tom goes and Colby kind of gets absorbed into everything when james gets taken out then it goes really well for them right i mean for the rest of the pre-merge it does to the point where they're all unified and deciding to write a letter to russell they're all unified in their stupidity i mean yeah i think you could actually think the heroes are the ones who give the idol to the villains the villains were getting a lot done like if you look at success which again appoints

not in their favor in this post in this criteria as we're saying the whole final four they are they get the idol from the heroes they have like one of the biggest successes in survivor history at the merge by winning that war and on the individual stats they've all done pretty well in the game before, during or after. See, that's a good question. Legacy as well. Like, does it help or hurt a hot mess tribe's legacy if it then breeds some survivor legends from it? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, again, I think we're all kind of saying the same thing. But like this tribe, they were they were they had a split tribe, but they were winning under under rob's kind of leadership

in the beginning and then there was a big messy thing that happened in the middle of the pre-merge there with tyson and then after that it was kind of like all right now we're just unified on the russell side so i don't yeah i don't think this is particularly hot hot messy all right go ahead oh just tyson like the big messy thing that happened that should be the title of that episode just Tyson going home on the big messy thing that happened um yeah I would put this I think in forget you go home goodbye which is sad because this was the first buff I ever got the villains tribe the most iconic tribe but as a hot mess they actually did do a lot even within all fighting, they got so much done

with so much success. We get the winner. And yeah. And a lot of them, I think, still probably really like each other. Well, the Rock and Sandra, that's going to play out years down the track. And to be fair, Parvati and Sandra only recently made up with each other. So this is a long-festering conflict. See, they're finding each other through time there. long time there probably and sandra like i guess

still on winners at war there was the mess there yeah i don't know i i i personally would put this in a no hershey bar but i won't i will not have any qualms with matching it up with the red also uh this is a complete side note but now i'm curious um what was the first buff you got mike uh the first buff i got was a dra The first buff I got was a Drake buff. And then I got a Kendrick buff right afterwards. A Walt buff? I got a Drake buff from Pearl Islands back in like 2003. I was like, what tribe is that?

All right. You're Tupac, Shannon. You should know. Mary, what was the first buff you ever got? I think mine was the Merge Tribe buff from Vanuatu. Oh, Alinta. Yeah, I think that was the first one I had. Good color, good color. In what context? I think mine was the Merge Tri Buff from Vanuatu. Oh, Alita! Yeah, I think that was the first one I had. Good color, good color.

In what context? I know it was orange. When did you get that? My dad went to a live audition and they were giving them out at the live auditions back in the day. We can't get rid of them quick enough, no. Alright, well let's move on here

to our next group but we're actually going to keep sticking with red and uh did your dad audition for survival oh yeah a long time ago that's it wasn't it wasn't a good audition i still have it i watch it i'll pay money i will pay money so no i don't even know your dad and i still want to watch it my dad auditioned for the amazing race with my cousin and that was a pretty funny audition. It's one of my favorite ideas to go back and remake my dad's audition, just shot for shot. Yes, that's incredible.

That needs to happen. Some people like years later do like the baby photos recreated as birthday presents. You should do that. Incredible birthday present troll. This is a great idea. Let me write this down. Well, it's interesting that you're both talking about loved ones participating in auditions for reality tv shows to get this hot mess back on track because the next group we're talking about are the loved ones from survivor blood versus water this is another bit of a uh

forgotten gem so this is todd h. So these were the loved ones. Again, the member of the returnees were all on one tribe. The loved ones were on another. And again, we might forget because there's a couple of big things we remember from blood versus water, but this was a pretty disastrous group.

You know, if Boston Rob was the one that was leading a fractured villains to success, Brad Culpepper was basically his opposite in that he was trying to rally them under his leadership, in that he was trying to rally them under his leadership, but even he was flippant. They get rid of Marissa because of what happened with Jervis in the first challenge. Then they flip to get rid of Rachel. Then they flip again to take out John Cody because they fear that he might have the idol. And then we have that whole

chaotic situation where a tie vote is forced and Brad ends up going. That being said, certainly on the more forgotten end of the tribe we're talking about, Shannon, how does that bear weight for you? Yeah, I feel like there's a couple of things that are not in this tribe's favor. The first being it's like you just introduce them by saying you don't really think about it or whatever you just said a couple of seconds ago. You're so forgettable you forgot what I said. It is so early. And when you showed me the initial list,

I think I said, oh, they don't need to be on. So I think that that doesn't speak well. It is, there's a lot there in terms of how it goes for the personality. It's like, obviously Brad Culpepper leading it and he's like the way we think about bad math now. So from a staff perspective, that's probably not good, right?

That's like anti-math. And I do think it's funny that the way it ends up going with this tribe is they lose to the fact that Sierra works it out too late that she should be with them. So then they have to go to rocks. And then that's how like the, you know, the house of cards falls because they lose at rocks. So that's interesting in saying that. I just don't think it's that memorable when we think about hot mess tribes or disaster tribes. I feel like this doesn't come to mind what do you think mary yeah i think i'd agree i think that they they were put in such a sticky situation of being the other blood versus water season so they were already kind of off to a like a rough start there

but but yeah all in all let's see let's see tadhana oh not great on placement actually now that i'm remembering it so sierra here in uh the fifth place with the highest placement but but other than that i think yeah they were just kind of like um it's sort of like some other tribes we might mention that they just they were oh let's uh let's make it so much more difficult for them to do well because we'll put all of it's sort of like some other tribes we might mention that they just, they were, Oh, let's, let's make it so much more difficult for them to do well, because we'll put all of their loved ones with any of the survivor know-how

in the other tribe. And let's see how it goes. And I think it goes about as well as everyone kind of thought it would. Yeah. It feels unfair to do it to like the favorites tribe. Great. Well, the fans,

sorry, against fame. Right. This sort of represents, I didn't put either one of the fans tribes on here but this sort of represents them like in the incredibly unbalanced format of putting survivor alumni against people who have never played the game before they were they hit their expected value in challenge wins which i think was one right yeah and also like daring to ask the question do loved ones of returnees pick it up by osmosis and we found out like no not really well but here's the thing if you had put loved ones

of players against complete newbies yeah they might do well that would be a better test i like though this is like that would be like Survivor What's the show Where it's like famous people siblings Yeah Survivor Claim to Fame that would be good Yeah I like this we're pitching That actually was a summer survivor idea Yeah we're pitching

Future reality show ideas We're basically a shark tank baked within A months long podcast series I think that that would firstly that's literally what we've been doing i really think that and also i think that that is an interesting season because it's like we found out our loved ones almost as good as like the returnees no our loved ones better than a regular person let's find out anyway something for the future that that'll probably be when like in decades from now it's like so i have a next generation and it's just like boston rob's kids against the raddons so that well where do we want to put this here are we also again sliding in and forget you you go home goodbye or does it

eke its way onto a no hershey bar i feel like it's somehow like it's maybe the worst like at least the villains is like very memorable but maybe the villains is memorable for its success. So it should be lost. Help my brain. The villains are certainly more memorable in their messier aspects in the conflict, even post-merge when they're still together. You have Sandra quite literally telling Russell that she's against him. You have Danielle being gaslit to the extent of tears at tribal council due to her own tri-mates.

And again, I think Tad Hana kind of burned fast and bright, but I also wonder if the fact that they kind of delivered what we expected to with the entire concept of blood versus water meant that they don't pop as much as a hot mess. Try bike. You know what, Mike, you've sold me.

I think they're the worst one we've talked about so far. There we go. Now that almost should you put them up because if they're that bad at this, that speaks to me. Yes. there we go now that almost should you put them up because if they're that bad at this that speaks to me yes this spectrum is just one giant circle it's a snake eating its own tail help me pull well we took a couple of uh trips down to the bottom but i have full confidence that we're shooting straight up to the top whoa here! This is the one I was referring to. When you think of hot mess tribes,

I mean, this has got to be top three. There's so many tribes you could have been referring to where someone did say, I'll find you in your shitty little apartment. That could have been about five or six years. There's a lot of implicit times that was said about these tribes. People say with their eyes, you know. I mean, I'm just, like, I can't not

smile when looking at this group of people. Kasaya. Man. Are you crying? In comparison to, let's just say, what is it, Lamina? I don't even remember the other tribe, right? It's Lamina, Lamina. They were so boring.

No, we should do next time, boring tribes. Lamina will be at the top. Oh, that's fantastic. I think that should do next time boring tribes. Lamina will be at the top. Oh, that's fantastic. I think that should be a punishment for somebody. Like, Shannon, next time you lose a game, you are forced to do a tier list of boring tribes. I think we have fun. Courtney, you've got Shane. Put it this

way. You have, who was known as one of the most boring winners for so long, and Aris doesn't even pull this tribe down. Like, that's how strong the power of Kasaya is you have Bruce you have Bob Dog Suri I mean come on like I can't I can't just this is such a chaotic tribe and funnily enough this is a tribe that is chaotic but still like relatively winning.

I feel like in terms of like their challenge. That's where I think on paper, we would usually say, well, like the villains, well, they dominated in the post-merge. They enter the merge with numbers, but this is where I think that Genesee Qua beats it out. That like, they're just such a nuclear reactor of personalities that it doesn't matter and when they do go to tribal council they vote somebody out three to two to one to one somehow yeah and then eventually

sari will use pretty much this whole tribe and terry in the three to one so plurality votes which is not the criteria but i'm putting it in there like kasaya have so much so much more success than they should for how much of a hot mess they were which is fascinating like they hate each other but they work together which is strange but if you look at which is i think maybe even more iconic but if you look at each person i mean there's so much going on shane speaks for itself as you've said i'll kill you in your shitty little i'll find you is it i'll find you in your shitty little apartment and then kill you yeah i'll kill you in your shitty little, I'll find you. Is it I'll find you in your shitty little apartment and then kill you? Yeah. Or I'll kill you in your shitty little, whatever. All of these things are probably getting this video banned from YouTube.

Shane showing his nether regions to Ciri. Right before Ciri experienced the nether region last year on Big Brother. Don't remind me that the nether gorgon, was that a thing? Oh, that was a thing. Well, that's in the recesses of my brain as well. Shane speaks for himself bruce getting medivaced the way that he did hilarious sari not even sari can help this tribe um courtney all of these things speak for themselves yeah and then all of the fact that they still beat lamina lamina how much did you suck that you were losing to this tribe so yeah they do very well but it's iconic i think this is top of the list for me oh yeah i mean i

i can't really see any argument against putting it above fong and pagong for now i think the bigger question is going to be will it remain at the top by the end of this and i think what's great is like when you compare this to fong for example it's it's got a lot of the same messiness that uh that fong does but the characters are a little more likable overall so it just makes it it makes you smile and talk about how messy you are instead of rolling your eyes and talking and it's more memorable i think you go to kasiya first yes absolutely well let's stick on the note of purple and let's move on to a purple tribe that exists in the new era. Let's talk a Tika here.

So I'm talking I mean, this is sort of for me and maybe a bit of a mashup of the quote unquote old and new Tika, which basically swaps out Carson for Josh. But this is a group that has an OK track record. You know, they do win two immunity challenges but you have uh you know all of the personality clashes going on even between jam jam and carolyn but you know carolyn utilizing josh's idol play to get rid of sarah you have her tricking sarah you have bruce getting medevac within 11 hours and leaving them down a person from the get-go here now the big question is mary is this one that is helped or hurt by the fact that the tika three will rise from the ashes of

this tribe and become one of the most powerful alliances in the new era yeah i think what's tricky is this is a situation we're going to talk about a lot which is you've got some messy people but does that necessarily mean it's a messy tribe? I don't, I don't know. People are like half the tribe at least. Well, I guess what I'd say is like when you have,

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say Carson super messy, but like when you have Carolyn and jam jam being such iconic, messy players to some extent, but they're doing well and they are aligned with each other for a lot of it. Like, I don't know. I go back and forth. Although I am looking at Bruce now. I did forget about Bruce. So yeah. Now seeing what Bruce did on 45,

it does I think made me look at it a little differently of like, Oh, there was even more mess potential. Oh my gosh. Because for like a whole season we had like Bruce would have like brought them all together. He seemed like such like the clear like leader, father figure type. He would have really normalized this whole situation. Yes, we thought how stable he was going to be as part of his prime. And then when we saw 45, we were like, oh, okay.

So you are a Tika. So I think that that like the how long that punch line took is funny in and of itself it's funny because the tika three are so dominant but when we talk about like shanna ricard on ua and we will talk about malcolm and denise on matt singh they were both it was like malcolm and denise dominated ua fought and they fought while dominating like tika did that so i think that parts of that are impressive I mean they certainly do very very well exceptionally well to the like embarrassment of pretty much everyone else on this season but they're so messy while doing it but is it just is it just Carolyn and Jam Jam then right that's the thing you know are are we judging everything with because but no

offense to Helen and Sarah considerably cleaner uh and And Sarah- Oh, Helen seems so normal. Too normal for Tika, that's the thing. Sarah is so clean, she had a vacuum cleaner advantage that she didn't end up using where she could suck up all the advantages. I thought that was the claw machine advantage. Well, no, it's more so-

And really true is where we're at in our lives. But the question is, you know, how much does the weight of like the interpersonal conflicts between Jam Jam and Carolyn and Jam Jam and Josh to a certain extent? Remember, they're sort of like one, two punch of a brief rivalry. How much does that carry weight? For me right now, I'm slighted to put it in ain't no Hershey bar.

I think that even comparing it to new era tribes is definitely the bigger hot mess. But I also think it's like not necessarily breaking the definition like villains and tadhana right i will say from an iconicness perspective you know in this like new era of tribe names that are all like two two what am i saying two syllables two syllables thank you so early um two syllables together you remember tika like if you think of like say one tribe from the new era people might say tika first really i don't know i think people would say lulu first i was gonna say lulu probably but yeah or or or reba like if you have a name that is also the name of something else that also helps a lot name recognition i think i would say

tika and like again and i would really struggle to tell you the other two tribes from this season but i could definitely do tika every time and i think i'll be able to do it in 15 years but i'll be in 15 years but i yeah i think memorability i probably put it in i probably put it like ahead of ahead of ua oh really but then is that bad help see i feel like 41 has more of that like just compare shannon ricard to like yes jam jam was debating getting rid of carolyn but they still made the final three together and like yeah it's good and they would have gone to the and they would have gone to the final three together if heidi hadn't won the final immunity challenge. I think the other thing is from pretty much the point where it comes down to Carson,

jam, jam and Carolyn, they're pretty much more or less in lockstep until basically close to the end when they're fighting to win. I mean, they're, they're fighting, but they're,

they're strategically working together. It's like, it's, it's got both of those. I would say it's got the mess. It's not hot enough for me. Wow. I'm going to tell him he said that.

The cold mess sounds just awful. Yeah, it does. So I think you're right, though, that I would put it near-ish to 41, but I'm not really sure. All right, put it behind you, then. Yeah. All right. I can put it in front of Manu.

Manu is just so forgettable to me, which is so sad. I'm sorry. Alright, well, let's move on. Literally, as we said it, I was like, which one is Manu? I know. From 10 minutes ago, so... True. Well, we talked about one hot mess, Blood vs. Water tribe. Let's talk about another one here.

Hunapu. So I'm talking original Coke Hunapu. And it's weird because they won three out of the first four immunity challenges. Should have won the fourth, but maybe that speaks to their hot mess quality in that Drew Christie, God bless his soul, decides

to throw a challenge because he is like instinctually devoutly in belief that there is a women's alliance and he has to get rid of Kelly Wentworth right now. That was why he did it. He saw,

yeah, he saw the appeal in her, but who not, I think it's one of these groups where you look past the stats and there is so much messiness underneath the floorboards. This is a group that lost their Flint, tried to negotiate with Jeff to get a new one, traded in a reward and successfully got one,

then found their first one and tried to give it back because they hadn't used it. This is a group that had Keith find an idol, then tell people that Jeremy had it and had the two of them fighting at Tribal Council. I mean, the reason why I brought this in is because Natalie Anderson quite literally says, and it makes the title of an episode,

at their only Tribal Council, we're a hot mess jeff but this tribe i'm gonna put them low because i literally did also say to mike i don't think they should be on the tier list and michael was like well then you should rank them low and now it's happening because iconic tribe too iconic for their own good two winners produced from this tribe Kelly Wentworth doesn't even do well will go on to be an icon like their success here and I think you remember that a lot more than you remember the mess like it is funny that they lost their flint and then found it after they'd already gone through pains to get a flint back that is good the Drew Christie stuff he's messy in that and I feel like that's very individual Keith Nail that speaks for itself as well. But I still think as a tribe,

I think more about the other victories than I think about their mess as a tribe for me. Who is on the bottom, right? Oh, is that Julie? How dare you forget Julie? It didn't look like her. I'm like, who is this woman? Like it looks like Candace Cody. Okay. So who anyone else is is this woman? Like, it looks like Candace Cody. Okay, so. We don't have to question who anyone else is on this tribe except Julie,

but that makes her the best for this tier list, given what we're trying to do, I think. So I would say I agree with most of what Shannon said, although I do feel like I think that they, I think they do deserve to be talked about here, just based on, like, some of the things they do. I mean, we got Keith now. I mean, there, there was a lot that happened. You could even say, even though it's a strategic move, it's a strategic hot mess move. What Natalie pulls off with, for, you know,

forgetting to vote for the right person and stuff like there's a, you know, quote unquote, forgetting. I feel like that's the kind of thing that just works so well on this tribe so i think that i'd say that they're more of a hot mess than like the villains tribe but they're they're also pretty relatively low i don't know like even compared to coyote like coyote could possibly be more of a hot mess with everything val was doing with the john rocker of it all yeah it's really an interesting comparison as to which tribe would make it on here. Coyopa had

a few pretty wild rounds. I think that quite literally there were more material things that Hunapu did. And again, I just couldn't turn away from the fact that Natalie does say they're a hot mess tribe, and this is a hot mess tribe's rating. That being said, like, highest I could probably go is Ain't No Hershey

Bar on this. I don't know if they're bottom tier, but they're not top half for me. Yeah, I yeah, I don't know. I think they're above villains, but that's all I can give you. I think they're below the villains. Really? Because they also have so much success like the villains do. But I also feel like the villains, at least like their issues are more iconic because everything the villains do is iconic so they're always going to get iconic points i mean i do think the conflict on the

villains is certainly more well remembered than the conflict on hunapu but that that's true that come from the fact that we had what eight episodes of villains versus four episodes of hunapu and that's important but the strategic hot mess where you have two battering rams going against each other. No, that's Messiah. Is that hot mess or is that just strategically opposition? Like, I'm not sure. I think it's tricky because to your point about Natalie saying that they're hot mess, I think back on the times when I have said like, oh, I'm just, it's a hot mess today. I feel like a hot mess.

And usually what I mean is like, it's chaotic. I can't get my thoughts together. I have a lack of sleep. Yes. I don't know what's up and what's down. Like, and I feel like that's, I could see that being in Hunapu more so than in the villains tribe

where it's like, we've just got people butting against each other. So I don't know. But it's not just like the villains. If that would be true and they'd be even lower, if that was how it played out, like Russell side wins. And then like, you know, then it's a smooth sailing for the end. That was not what it was like with Russell side to the point where none of them even win.

So like, that's the topsy turviness of the villains. Yeah. Hunapu, I would put them behind the villains, but maybe they get points because the Flynn thing was funny, but I just don't think we think of them as a hot mess tribe. I think Mike needs to break the tie on this one. I'm not sure. I will.

I will side with Shannon on this one. I'm going to put them before the villain. I'll put them after the villains right now. Though our poor little Hershey bar tier got ain't no submissions in it. So maybe we'll have to do a little bit of restructuring because we're starting to move into the second half here. But before we do, we've said it three times, basically.

So Beetlejuice style, it must appear in front of us, Matt Singh. Now, this is going to be fairly simple in what tier it is in. But, Mary, the big question is, where does it lie in the top tier for you? Oh, so again, if we were going with losing-ish tribes, they're far and away, right? One of the most losing tribes. Right.

I think that the thing, the one thing that's pulling them down from being like the most losing, cause they're definitely a hot mess tribe, but just like when you think of them and you hear the name, we, we use them a lot of times to compare. We've literally used them like 10 times today. Yes. But, but, but my question is, are there's, there's mess early on and then there's just an inability to win but the inability to win does come from a lack of cohesion which you know increases it as compared to some of

the like more um new era losing his tribes it's more like well you just have a lack of skill set or whatever you look at his tribe doesn't look they don't have flint it's production base i think i think the one thing that pulls them down is malcolm and denise and the success that they have on their um even even with denise you hear that you're dead weight in this yeah even with malcolm even with denise going to other tribal councils she does a good job in those, you know, in that position. So, yeah. So I feel like, I feel like the Zayn night of it all, the Russell, the Roxy and Angie, I mean that, yeah, that's four strong points for Matt Singh being a hot mess though. I agree to a certain extent.

Now, look, I love me some Philippines. I love me some Matt Singh. But I think if you look at it, and again, this is why Kasaya might be the unquestioned, untouchable number one, not to spoil the rest of this podcast, but it's going to be tough for me, is that Kasaya, yes, it had an opposite challenge record,

but there was so much messy drama baked into it. Matt Singh, like Zaynane brought some chaos but i don't think from an interpersonal perspective this is really remembered as a messy tribe if anything from a strategic perspective it was like malcolm and denise were kind of surreptitiously stirring the drink of this entire thing to the point where russell swan's entire boot episode is basically one long eulogy of like well they lost they lost again. And Russell Swan is definitely going. I think there's some fun, like personality moments,

like Angie with the cookies and Roxy speaking in tongues. But I think all of that, like there's comedy as well. And in Kasaya too, I would say I could put this above Fong, but this is not touching Kasaya for me, much like Serene did not want to touch Shane's nether regions. and I think that there's a tribe that comes after this that echoes a lot of Matt Singh that I think is actually messier so yeah I think I'm with you I I think I'm with

Mike I think it's actually a toss-up to me on which side of Fong it's on I'll say that for me it's like I'm only choosing where it goes on the other side of Kasaya. I feel like as a disaster tribe, this is obviously – But disaster and hot mess are different. But it's different. But to be fair, disaster is part of a hot mess. And there's a lot there. I mean, Russell calling Jeff Lord, the fact that he, like, you know,

passes by the idol and it's, like, flashing the fact that he like, you know, passes by the idol and it's like flashing the fact that they like, you know, a lot of the other disaster tribes get that cathartic moment. Yannou just gets it. Mike put it in a video side by side where it's like they finally get the win and you cry. I cried. It was emotional. Matt Singh, like they get the slow-mo and then it doesn't happen. And that is so sad and kind of funny.

And yes, Malcolm and Denise bring it back but the thing about Malcolm and Denise being good is that it also like puts two like kind of normal people in there to be the barometer of like all the insanity and that's actually like a pretty good metric as well of just like watching it all unfold because yeah the other four that go home around them all have their hot mess here's here's the question i'd say if you plug in some success they went just at any point before before uh it's only down to malcolm denise at any point if they had won a challenge i think that they they work well together whoever's there you know i think malcolm denise but they didn't but but i think but but not not in challenges i'm

saying strategically i think malcolm denise and russell could have worked fine together if they had won and had the opportunity to their their main source of messiness was just the losing more so than the actual personalities i don't agree zane the fact that one of them like same i think if we're comparing it to kasaya sorry kasaya Kasaya wins. No, no, no. I've actually decided that Kasaya. Yeah, I think Kasaya wins just because it has to be after. I'm fine with that. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that's that's that's fine. I'd say me personally, I'd put it below Fong, but that's only because I think that Fong had both some losses and just every like they had more not getting along. I think that's the one

thing that matt singh is messing i think got along okay and maybe it's just that we didn't see enough because they just every episode was they lose a challenge they have to vote someone out and so they didn't get a chance to like try and work together in the same way that like ua did where we get to see shannon mccard rub each other wrong because they had to spend more time together they had so few. So it's such a short amount of time to actually even try to work together. I don't know. I think Russell was more chaotic than we're remembering.

Like, I think that the funny thing about Russell was like, he'd been this like leader type at Galoo in Samoa. And then he like came here. It was like, Oh, it was like kind of like the Bruce factor. It was like, Oh, you were crazy. Then we remember, like, you kind of got like this like rose colored glasses edit because because it went like you know that way with the many died he died a hero before living long enough to see himself become the man well yeah he died like a hero before well he died but then he got brought back to life yeah before you know living long

enough to see himself showed as like a little bit unhinged and that was the same thing so i think that was funny i think they were more chaotic and unhinged that we're giving them credit for the losing is definitely the main point but yeah i think we've referred to them so much today they have to be pretty high up i'm happy with where is that all right i want to move on here because mary i think i was picking up what you were putting down beforehand and i think it only makes sense that we turn to the other side of the slingshot outcome here and talk about yanu one of our most recent hot mess tribes and is this what you were mentioning before it's actually not but we'll get to the we'll get to the one that i was mentioning before i think this is a tribe that definitely had a lot of personal

conflict within each other like yes they were losing and also even within this majority of three there was still a lot of disagreement there. Q was apparently going to get rid of Kenzie. Kenzie and Tiffany were complaining about Q all the time. And then it leads to obviously everything blowing apart post-merge. What do you think, Shannon? There's so much here. I mean, you could rewatch 46,

where Q seemed like a fairly stable leader at the beginning with all of the madness around him from like Jelinski and Bano and Jess. And then you find out that like Q Q was the whack-a-cuddle all along so I think that that is a point in its favor and they're gonna get a win I think that's important but a win to the point of I mean like look and they both vote for Kenzie Q and Tiffany but like there's a lot of drama before that happens Kenzie wants to vote out Tiffany and doesn't even get to vote out Tiffany Q and Tiffany but like there's a lot of drama before that happens Kenzie wants to vote out Tiffany and doesn't even get to vote out Tiffany Q and the chaos with all of that so they're they were still arguing at the final tribal council they were still bickering back and forth which

is incredible I think the point out of their favor is like the opposite of Uwa with Uwa was like okay you're a disaster tribe and now we look back and we think okay this this is like a part of the new era that production is doing with Yanni we already knew that so it wore a little bit thin that it like was multiple seasons in a row of the disaster tribe like we've seen this film before but they did it well still a great film so i'm pretty high on yannu yeah i'm i'm really high on there as well i mean listen if we did a completely different list of like the iconic tribes in the new era i'd be hard pressed not to put yanu number one uh and wow i think that's a hot take it's maybe it's a bit of a hot take that actually it makes sense but there is so much character and drama baked in here it wasn't just matt singh where it was like

oh no we're going to tribal council again like you said we've seen that movie before but this is a remake where the characters are all a little bit different, where even just watching the arc of someone like Banu, who again has like a little bit of an odd moment in the first Tribal Council, but you're like, hey, he's not nearly as messy as Jess and Jelinski. And then when Jess and Jelinski go, it's like, oh no, he was much worse. Oh my God. He still wasn't the craziest of the tribe.

It was, we said it was like the monster right it was like every time that someone was voted out then the next person would like take on all that craziness as added to their own craziness and it was just like yeah it was it just kept escalating so yeah i mean it is unfortunate that so much of that pre-merge is not fun like the time we spend with yanu i can't say that i had a good time and i kind of want some of it back but that might have just been due to how long the episodes were all right mary what what do you think you haven't given your thoughts on yanu yet yeah i think yanu is great so i think yanu is like the improvement on ua like because we got to see more because we got to see more of them get to the merge.

We got to see, I mean, just imagine Q not being at the merge. Like if we had lost that earlier or any one of Q, Tiffany and Kenzie, and how that ended up going down. So I think even when you look at things like early on Kenzie trying to, you know, create a coalition with a Banu and Jess and like how that flops. Like, I think that this is this tribe is i know it's recency buy-ins it's very high for me like yeah they do get a win which is they do get a win yeah they do get a win i think um i love a tribe that tries to work together has issues and

fights tries to work together has issues and fights fights, tries to work together, has issues and fights. And I feel like there were so many different arrangements of even when you just look at Q and Tiffany and Kenzie of different groups of those three that were working together. We're against the other one. We're trying to rat one of them out. We're trying to get one of their idols out. But, you know, it's just a great tribe yeah so yeah it's high for me i i get i'm i'm now start we're getting to a point where it's like does the nostalgia is it is it warranted when you actually look at i mean listen i'll put out a bit here i'll put it above fong yeah i think it's above i mean i think Yeah, I think it's above Fong. I mean, I think Fong. I think it's above Matt Singh, but that's just me.

I don't think I'm going to win. I think Matt Singh, like, if we do this again, like three years from now, and we look back on how, you know, memorable Yanu was, if there's, but who knows? There might be, like we experienced with Ula, there might be tribes that even outdo Yanu a couple of years the line but right now i think season i think matt singh has history on its side at the moment i think what's hard is that like the fun part of yanu is that it turned out that they were so crazy like q was meant to be the stable one like imagine going into

the merge and then malcolm is just completely unhinged. Imagine the craziest version of Malcolm that you can possibly find, and that was him all along, but he's compared to the others. But that's what I'm saying. That's why I think this is higher than Matt Singh, because I think Matt Singh is more of a losing tribe, but even Kenzie, even Tiffany,

they did wild things in a way that Malcolm and Denise didn't. Malcolm and Denise were, they might've made a couple bad game moves along the way, but they were so much more just sort of well-rounded, stable players than any combination of anyone from Yano. Because even Kenzie had that like blue eye confessional. Denise was more stable than Kenzie even was.

When you talk about the intentional messing, you're not talking about, hey, let's all fight and be wild and messy. No, you're just talking about losing challenges. They are more losing, but they're not more of a hot mess. I think I'm actually being convinced that I do think that, like, when we look at who makes it out of there, and if we look on a character-by-character basis, the fact that, yeah, I don't think we can say that Banu

is even the messiest of this tribe has to speak very very well to it in this criteria so yeah i think i might put it second is that right i don't know let's uh the purple also works out really nicely too so we can we can scooch up and we can make decisions uh as we keep going as well let's uh try to hammer through some of these other ones those Those were a couple of big ones to talk about. I want to talk about Ravu here for a second. Ravu is the have-not tribe from Survivor Fiji. This is one of the tribes that Sylvia handpicked only for them to lose the first challenge,

meaning they got nothing at their camp, not unlike Yanu, actually. And surprise, surprise, they never won a challenge except for one time when a tribe gave away immunity basically to be like no we like our nice home so ravu this is maybe a bit like tadhana in that like what else did you expect that one tribe that was given nothing would just continue to fester away while another tribe lived in luxury yeah i feel like interpersonally i mean there was like the Rocky versus Anthony stuff, but Shannon, I can't really think of any other

huge messy qualities just outside the fact of the conditions they were living in. Yeah, I think when you say like, go, go, give us nothing, they don't mean like, oh no, don't actually give us nothing while the other tribe get to live like kings. So yeah, it's hard to blame Rabu

because from my memory, even like after the swap, weirdly, strangely strangely the common denominator was having nothing compared to having everything weird who would have thought it's really strange how that experiment played out um exactly as you would think so hard to blame the tribe itself like we say that it's baked into the new era format um this this season said the quiet part loud in terms of that so i don't really blame them um and also you have like yao man you have earl did so well for me this is low because i don't

think it's the tribe's fault yeah what do you think mary yeah i think it's similar to what you were saying this reminds me of some of the things that we talked about with um uh tatahana where it's like it's they were not set up well and um and i think that while some of these people are kind of a hot mess i'd put like the the first swap version of ravu as more of a hot mess i'd agree with that yeah um so i think that a question mark in terms of like which version of rob were we even talking about i personally thought the first one like the second one it's still straightforward votes were they like yes the rocky and lisi boots were blindsides but it was still like i think the novelty of rabu kept losing and them trying to have to deal with

that time after time with these big personalities. That's to me what I remember as the messiest part of this group. Yeah. What do we have last? So that's Rabu right now. No, that was before. Tadhana. And I put these in a

similar situation. I feel like you don't remember exactly who was losing as much as they were losing because they... So I think it should be kept in your, Tadhana, because I think both tribes were kind of structurally messed up. So the question is, and I think personally Tadhana had a little bit more personal drama and messiness in the blind sides to put it above Robbo. I might petition for Robbo to be at the bottom right now. I'm with you on that. I can go with that.

All right, well, let's go a little old school here. And we talked about one Boston Robb tribe, but I think it's time we talk about the original. And this maybe is a group that some consider the OG hot mess tribe. Mata Amu, a group of very big personalities,

Rob, Sean, Peter Herkey and his many holes, Hunter, of course, Patricia, Mama. I mean, makes one of like the biggest initial blind sides in Survivor history when they choose to overthrow their leader, Hunter, in the vote right before the swap. Even the second version, like, they win one reward challenge and one immunity challenge. I think two reward challenges, actually, the entire season.

So the question is, Shannon, in comparison to all these other ones, does Mata'amu hold water here, or is it as holy as Peter's vices? Yeah, I feel like, for me, the memories of the success, like, Vesepiaia's success how they're gonna eventually overthrow to like in a good way through the merge um which is very good but if you think about a pre-merge i don't for me it's not as iconic as a hot mess tribe hmm what do you think mary oh first off i think i'm getting too old to find this version of danny glover you think that's going to happen with me and old school ethan's on uh i know it's tough isn't it

um you don't want to age out of crushes i know i know that's uh can't we just crystallize him in amber? Oh, wait, he's married to her. But I'm ching. Yeah, I don't know. It is hard because they, like when you think about Survivor Marquesas, you think about, yeah, how losing Mar Amu was, but then you also think about the row two four and how they flopped. They're losing.

Yeah, so they're losing as well i mean there was there was some wild stuff at the beginning personality wise um but you also can like picture them sitting around and doing their like morning show stuff together so you know there was there was some happy times yeah well they were not the love tribe that was road to but they certainly had some i think i would even say they had more conflict with the road to is of course like with the whole argument between rob and sean and johnny pots and pans at the merge i think it was more so the mess came through a the fact that they were one of these first tribes in the initial seasons that couldn't win challenges you know through four episodes through the first three seasons they traded wins back and forth basically mad amu i

think i think ogakor did as well but like madamu lost three challenges in a row and then kept losing once the swap happens which was something that hadn't really been done before in survivor history uh i don't know i this is like this is somewhere in the middle for me this might be a nohershi bar maybe the reason yeah maybe because we're feeling like we don't know is because it sits in the middle for me. This might be Ain't No Hershey Bar. Maybe the reason we're feeling like we don't know is because it sits in the no-bands and we have hardly put no tribes in. For Marquesas, shouldn't it be Ain't No Snickers Bar?

Well, you can change that. That is a reference to the fact that they had a reward of a Snickers bar during the Kite Line Challenge at Survivor Marquesas. That's true. I feel like this is a situation where it's like they were kind of losing kind of a hot mess but

when you compare them to a guy you gotta start looking back at the board who is who's the last in my life is mine is that Manu that's Manu Manu was louder with their mess they and they also lost the first three immunity challenges Manu had a winner that did not play the game

I think that's that feeling I think I game. I think it was No Hershey Bar. I think that's that feeling. I think that's where it is. What is this feeling? It's that. Say No Hershey Bar. And now I actually know how it feels, and that's good, because now I'll know when it comes up again.

Exactly. Now you've discovered the taste of every single one of these flights of tears, and now you have a nice little palette for it. I would prefer a Hershey Bar to a Snickers bar. I don't like Snickers at all. All right. Well, let's talk about someone who has a refined palate. Let's talk about Coach Wade and his original tribe.

Let's talk Timbira. Now, Timbira is another one of these really interesting cases where they were unified. In fact, they lost only two out of six immunity challenges in the pre-merge. But I didn't include Galoo in this because they were kind of like the the progenitor of this that once the merge hit all of those kind of festering conflicts that they couldn't act upon came out to mass effect they fell in love with jt steven and taj immediately blindsided brendan then they flipped over with aaron and sierra to get rid of tyson then they flipped back to get rid of sierra and then debbie went and then coach went and as a result they really just fell apart despite having such big numbers at the merge

yeah i feel like with galoo it's a lot of it is russell like exceeding more than it feels like it was specifically on them i mean definitely parts of it with like shambo but that felt like russell timbira did this to themselves and part of me i said to mike pre like before we did this i was gonna say pre-season this isn't a season no but i said that like jallapal possibly could be like they were the disaster tribe like they were losing a lot but then they get to the merge and they run circles around timbira who are just like itching to work with jt especially who are itching to vote each other out and like i always think about that scene because it comes up a lot in survivor and they're like the symbol in

my mind of when like if they when you're like it comes up a lot in Survivor and they're like the symbol in my mind of when like, when you're like a whole tribe is talking to each other and they're all lying, but they all have to be like, yeah, no, we're voting out JT. And they're all obsessed with JT. And I feel like that happens often, but I always think about it iconically with them. So, yeah, I mean, it was like a race to the bottom. Tyson and Ciara there. Yeah, there's a lot there with timbira i think it is also pretty iconic if only if only uh if only sandy was on this tribe it would be a slam dunk i i don't know what it says about me that if you had not showed me this picture of timbira i would have been able to tell you exactly what every single person was wearing like that's how well

i know this tribe like and that and then the tribes from survivor all-Stars are the only two I could probably do that for. I do feel like this was the first season where either they really made it apparent or we only talked about it that they had them dress in a color scheme of their tribe. And I think it's because Kimbera was the first and so far only black pre-merge tribe. They were like, wow, they're really dressed in a lot of dark colors. That's coincidental. And it was not. Oh, my gosh i mean this this tribe it's a great tribe it's an iconic tribe how messy is it i mean it's it's messy who it's not the messiest of all time it there's kind of like as you said like the villains like two warring factions in a way

like once you get to the merge which takes away points like coach debbie and tyson like a lot exactly and i mean they hate sierra yeah they hate sierra and then erin's kind of by herself it is yeah exactly so So I think I would probably say like high a no Hershey bar and then maybe slot or slotted somewhere in my life is fine that I think there is like this is where the narrative mess kind of weighs out. Right. I think it still gets talked about as one of these first tribes of like, hey, just because you come in with the numbers doesn't mean you can clean house. Look at what happened to Timbira. Sometimes vote early. Vote often is a legitimate strategy because then you're able to

get stuff out in the votes. And so I do think that it's almost like Pagong. It does earn some credit there, but I'm not sure how far that gets them. For me, I'm putting them right now above Manu. And below Tika. I was going back and forth with them and Manu in that area.

I think the question is, looking at the two tribes, does it help or hurt if you have players that are overall sort of decent players in a different season. And they both have some of that. So I think there is some kinship there between the two. I don't know. I might argue to put it above Tika because this is almost, again, sort of opposite outcomes

and that Tika, despite all their conflict with each other, does stick through, whereas Timbira, that's the very reason they fracture apart almost immediately. And does that make it more of a hot mess try by comparison? Yeah, I think maybe it does. They do come in with a six to three majority at the point where they're voting at the merge. And then it just goes so poorly again. Pretty much like JT and Steven and Taj all did very, very well.

But they also did a lot of that to themselves. And it has Coach. We're not even talking about the fact that this is like OG coach. Like they're all sitting around listening to coaches stories. Yeah. Put it there. Yeah. Yeah.

I think the increasing dislike of everyone to coach and Tyson and Sierra of each other, to me, that overweighs the spats that jam jam and Carolyn would have with that. Like at the end of the day, they still voted together. You could tell that Tim Beard legitimately did not like each other it's the fact that tyson has to like try and coach coach no that's next through through the next season yeah but even then like the legacy of not wearing feathers that your hair are tribal like it speaks for itself so yeah all right well let's open up a vat of some more even in the chat says is this ranking in

terms of gameplay among hot mess tribes or just vibes? It's vibes. It's mostly vibes. It's a vibes only podcast. Let's talk about the vibe of our next tribe and open up a big vat of Vati. So this is our green tribe from Survivor 42. And if you're asking, why are they a hot mess tribe? I'm just going to take you back to the first tribal council they went to where there was a four to two majority but because one

of them couldn't vote because their idol was locked behind there is such grace in the game of soccer it makes me cry and because another person went to ship whale island and risked their vote and lost it it forced a two-two tie and they nearly ran to rocks until the third member of the alliance basically felt he was forced to vote out the fourth member of the alliance. That's Vati in a nutshell. Yeah, I mean, it didn't come to mind hugely

for me. I have the same question I had about Michelle earlier. Did Lydia bring this jacket? I don't think she borrowed that from any lawyers. I'm pretty sure she wore that on there, but it's an interesting wardrobe choice. Very interesting.

It's a blue pants. I mean, you wouldn't expect anything less. I think that I don't think about 42 as having like a disaster tribe. Statistically. It's like the most even, I think from like a challenge perspective that they all kind of, which is rare for the new era that they all kind of like have their wins and losses.

But yeah, that tribe, they all enter starkly even is rare for the new era, that they all kind of like have their wins and losses. But yeah, that tribal council is like party. Yeah, they all enter starkly even because of Jackson leaving the game. They all go in four to four to four at the merge. But the glee that I had in that episode where Chanel loses her voice, I remember thinking like the analysis was like,

there were so many other ways you could have played this. Like it did not need to go that way. You had to do every single thing wrong to get to the point where this is happening with the almost rock draw and then jenny jenny poor normal jenny justice for that um so much going on with like uh daniel strunk and mike and the idol i still don't think of them as a disaster tribe and i don't even think that i really think of them as a hot mess tribe even though i see it now that you're saying it, but I didn't think it beforehand.

I mean, what I would also counter is, if we're also looking at pre-merge versus post-merge, we have in the Daniel Strunk Travel Council, Chanel throwing out a spare vote just in case of a shot in the dark play without warning Mike ahead of time, which then causes this tribe to self-destruct at the merge. We don't remember this, that Hai ends up immediately throwing his closest ally, Lydia, under the bus at the merge we don't remember this that high ends up immediately

throwing his closest ally lydia under the bus then chanel goes then mike turns on high eventually a couple votes later like if we're talking about this was not a group that yes they had a couple messy tribal councils but they stuck through at the post merge this was definitely one of the most fractured groups in the post merge the thing that's bringing it down to me is when I look at this season, this is my least memorable tribe out of the three, which is shocking. Oh, interesting. I know, and I don't know why that is. I think I just remember more key moments.

I mean, put it this way. Everything you've mentioned, yes, I remember it. I don't know if I can name another thing that happens with this tribe. There was quite a lot of things that we mentioned yeah but like but besides the their first iconic vote and the the the situation with high ditching lydia and i don't know i don't know i don't blame her for that like that that was that's mercatory is tough okay they were fighting for their lives omen did very very well there but yeah i don't think i think of them as like a hot mess trap i don't think like it's more of a cold mess for me it might be a no hirschi bar that might be that feeling i think this is that feeling i think it is i think it's well it's distinct how

that feeling feels so now are you putting it above or below mara i think maybe below now i've got to try and like pass between this feeling i think for me the fact that again like the tiebreaker i guess for me is the post-merge and the fact that v and sean stuck together like glue in the post-merge and what happens to vati in the post-merge makes vati the messier tribe for me and then they don't vote like to wait yeah and they and they um uh self-destruct earlier so yeah who does yeah i think i think the episode three tribal council like really lifts this up and i think that does outweigh the hunter blind side of a similar episode three wild moment yeah okay i see what you're both saying now and i agree all right up, let's keep sticking with the green here. It's time. We, uh,

we crack open our brains and talk about Luzon. This is the one that I was comparing it to with Matt Singh. This is my challenge Casio. There's a lot of synergy here between this tribe and Matt Singh. I think you think of them in similar ways. This is the one where you, you think about like, did they,

did they benefit in losing some of those early challenges? I think though, when you compare this one just directly with Matt Singh, this is more of a hot mess. I agree. There's so much here. Like their name is Luzon. Yes.

And then we're getting another L getting another global survivor that might be messier and yet here we are talking about this luzon truly two of the messiest tribes of all time both luzon look at how happy they are in this photo like you can tell that this is taking moments before disaster before disaster and that must have been before the game started because disaster was so so immediate um they're like yeah we're friends we're on survivor and it just goes so badly so quickly um it was a fact that, we're friends. We're on Survivor. And it just goes so badly, so quickly. There was the fact that they were the Brains tribe, but then, like, where were the Brains?

Jatia throwing out the rice. Everything with Garrett, one of my favorite premieres, if not maybe my favorite premiere of all time. The fact that Cass and then, like, Spencer, again, Spencer and Tasha hate each other through multiple seasons. And here's what's great about that is the high placement does not reflect the relationship among the people. Spencer and Cass did not get along, but both do well, which I think boosts them hot mess wise.

I mean, that's, that's the thing. Uh, Matt Singh, right. Not only Matt Singh, but even like looking at it's, it's something like a Tika right where yes they lose early on they've got some wild personalities but all together jam jam carolyn and um carson get along much better than tasha spencer and castu yeah i i don't think i think out of all of these tribes this is far and away the biggest roller coaster of a tribe of like oh my god they are in a downward tailspin they're you know getting rid of their athletically strongest guy because he's such a jerk blindsiding him with an idol in

his pocket okay wait they did get rid of one of their weakest challenge performers in jutia they seem to be unified as a three okay they swap together and it seems like they're in control of the tribe oh wait cast decides to just leave them high and dry and go over to the other side, and Spencer declares openly she has a 0% chance of winning the game. Okay, they're not getting rid of each other, but they're on opposite sides. Three of them are in the final six.

Okay, maybe they're going to be able to join back together. No, they immediately target each other again, and they place in four and three. There is a one brief reprieve when they are on this combined swap. When they go to Alexis and they've got a little bit of power and a little bit of like, okay, we're going to cool off. We're going to see what happens. We're doing okay. We're winning. This is fine.

And then everything just falls apart again, which is great. But that's love it. That's so fun because to get a little bit of like hope for it to like immediately torpedo in the most epic way, maybe this will be good. And it's from literally the very, very beginning love it to like from from david sampson choosing who's gonna go back to the chapter of garrett and like it implodes from the mat from the mat but then it goes all the way to the end to the fact that they're going to be three of the final six hating each other the whole time obviously spencer and tasha are like the key

duo in this that have a relationship all the way through even another season but even that isn't enough i think to counteract the chaos of this the brauns try to throw a challenge and they can't which is always a really really fun thing the name is luzon it has everything it ticks every single box it's number one for me i think so as well i think what it has above matt singh is the fact that there's so much personal conflict and hatred towards each other what it has above kasaya is that strategically they are not unified whatsoever win challenges to me this is the perfect mix of what makes a hot mess tribe it is a group of people that just do not see on the same page physically strategically or socially it is the perfect lab brewed sixsome of individuals that produces the

optimal tv that we experience as survivor friends not to also mention this was you know philippines have brought back the three tribe format but the success of kagayan is really going to usher in a lot of three tribe seasons from here on out. And I think it's due in part to how iconic Luzon is. But it's not production manufactured. Like they just suck that much. These are people who should never have met.

They don't vote out Katia after she throws out the rise. There's so many other issues. We're not even getting into like, it's just, it's so many things. It makes me want to rewatch the season every time that I talk about it. But number one for me. Yeah. What do you think, Mary? You agree? I agree. I agree. Matt Benjamin in the chat says Tasha could have been Messier

if this was going to be 100% the Messiest Possible Tribe. I do agree. But I think that still Cass and Tasha are messy. Like there's mess. Congratulations, Luzon you won something there we go and the other thing is like when I think one thing that's fun to think about is when you think about like pick out

the most stable person from the tribe which depending on your view of it could be potentially Spencer could be Tasha on the season and then pick out the same thing on Kasaya and I think I think Kasaya with Suri is just, or even potentially Danielle or potentially Aris,

depending on how you look at it, is just a little bit more calm. But they won that challenge when Beauty went to... They did. They won the bucket tossing. But even then, they failed at it. They got a whole freaking Blue Danube montage dedicated to how bad they are at it.

Yeah. Like, this is a special sauce right now that we are tossing in a bucket from person to person. It cannot be recreated. It was just lightning in a bottle, so. Well, let's move on from a Brains tribe to a Brawn tribe here. I want to talk about the Brawn tribe

from Survivor, Korong, Totang. I mean, they tie the first vote of the season. Actually, Ty wasn't on this one. Yeah, exactly. He was on the Beauty tribe. But this is a group that I think was largely remembered for Scott and Jason's treatment of Alicia, for Sydney eventually breaking off from the group

and turning on the guys in the post-merge. But for a wild season that was Koong, this was the wildest tribe. I mean, even with the conditions, this was a tribe that had a freaking bug crawling out of somebody's ear. Oh, do we need to mention that part again? I do think mostly what I remember is just how mean they were to Alicia. Like, relentlessly mean. Is that fun? Is that hot mess or is that just like one type of thing

well also like the brain strive there was this big surprise that okay brains versus braun versus beauty you would imagine from a challenge perspective the bronze would have at least an advantage they won one single challenge the entire time they were together yeah car and the chat says everyone looks so tiny with scott and it is true like he's he's Kneeling and he is like Basically it looks like Gandalf with the Hobbits I mean if you like I will never get the image Of Jennifer standing up on

Her stool out of my mind and Just how out of pocket That was for no reason she was in a Perfectly fine position going into that That is true yeah I think Sydney does a lot to help this tribe darnell probably would have had darnell not gone home so early but yeah when you when you look at jennifer scott jason and alicia like it's this is that this is a this is a disaster situation

yeah but the 10 is a little bit too mean. So it feels less messy and more toxic. Yeah, like, I don't think if Scott and Jason was, like, ooh, like, fun, like, Kasaya type, although some of that, I mean, he did say he was gonna kill her. Put this and, like, the merge tribe of Worlds

Apart as, like, the top toxic tribes. We should do that. That's fun. Yeah yeah that's the last podcast we want to do sure um yeah let's see can we see where we stack up yeah so i i mean it's it's tough like i i don't know if i'm getting the ain't no hershey bar feeling a little bit i am a little you are yeah a little bit it's giving a no hershey bar i think a little bit i feel it it's so distinct it's it's this one's hard for me because i agree with shannon i think it's giving a new Hershey bar I think a little bit I feel it it's so distinct it's it's this one's hard for me because I agree with Shannon I think it's more mean than messy

and so I don't know where to place it this one's hard for me because I agree with Shannon I mean I would say that like all toxicity is mess but not all mess is toxicity okay it's different type of drama yeah I don't know if all toxicity is mess i don't know that i agree i mean i think to me mess is some sort of form of chaos and disorder which i think toxicity i think that can be very ordered toxicity well not not in the way that it was done here at least yeah not here but i do i'm just trying to think about the concept of what you said i think for me lowest of ain't no hershey Bar. That's where my gut is now. Yeah, and Kate in the chat is right.

Scott's a bully, which is not the same necessarily as being messy. That's how I feel. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do with this. I think Ain't No Hershey Bar, that's the feeling. If you don't know, that's what that is. We have a tear for that. I mean, I know people would want to tell Scott and Jason,

forget you, go home, goodbye. Would that be reflected in their ranking as well? I don't even know anymore. Well, but see, see here's the thing because I agree with Shannon where you say you don't know where to put this put it in a no Hershey bar but then look at the villains tribe like where how do you I mean I would I've been I've been looking at this here and I would argue maybe we move villains up to a no Hershey bar uh yeah you know and they actually did what's the one after villains what is that yeah see the problem is the forget you go home goodbye tier is the is the tier of should this even be we're debating whether or not it even really is mess and i would put this more in that tier that's fair

and i like the villains try better right yeah you've convinced me well argued what's what's what's the winning argument here it's below villains but i don't know yeah because i don't even know that i would consider it messy how do we feel about moving the villains up to you know hershey bar because i don't think i don't think we're questioning them as a hot mess tribe in the way that we are these other groups let's let's reassess that at the end at the very end we've got a few left here. Let's go back to Survivor 46, and we'll talk about, you know, at least challenge-wise, the exact opposite of Yannou.

I want to bring up Nami here. And again, this is the most dominant tribe in the new era, one of the most dominant tribes in Survivor history. They have a 100% win record. I think they placed second in one challenge, but they did not like each other they did never have met yeah so like this was a situation it was almost like timbira like amplified to the max to fortissimo we're like as soon as they got the opportunity to vote each other they did and how where we go from nami filling out what the first three seats of the jury

alone and then the last two people standing were liz and venus you know venus being one of the furthest placing members of this tribe when she was like pretty much disliked by everybody on that beach in the first half of the game yeah i mean the fact that we have two tribes from this season i think we did say that you know through compared to sega i think i had the meme of like the you know dragon heads yeah dragon heads and then the the like sega one that was just having fun i mean nami really hated each other i do also feel like when i came back from my trip and i'd missed like a month of the show my thought process was about how every tribe was failing in their own way like sequentially and nami definitely had that through the middle of the game i mean these people it took it to twitter

it's post show yeah i don't know if we've ever seen so much just like something this is one of the closest comparisons i have to the feeling of watching like gabon like they're both there we got hot messes all around but on all almost all tribes in both of those seasons and uh we got some fun and some interesting characters and also uh some some of that like oh they do not like each other i mean also looking at the theme of the season technically three of them go home with an idol in their pocket as well and also in both cases there's a lot of questionable gameplay like a lot of very intense gameplay but whether or not anyone's actually doing anything that's in their best interest is questionable it's the fact that

tevin comes with soda for literally no reason it's the fact that one of the best challenge competitors of the new era can't save them from themselves. It's Liz, you know, Liz is Liz being the last, like, yes, Venus being the last Nami standing would be very fitting for the story, but the fact that it's Liz almost represents them even more. Yeah,

I agree. So it's going to be interesting comparing it to Yonu. Yeah. That's what I was about to ask. Where do you compare this with Yonu? Cause I'm, I'm a little bit torn. I think it's,

I personally think it's a tier below Yonu. I yanu is again this this perfect formula that though i don't know like is it like how much pogong's really hanging its hat on that on that you know historical scale yes i think pogong is getting a y'all are giving pogong a lot more credit than it is the way that cake because it's hard, because they were first and that was also first for us. I know. We're still working out the criteria. So possibly because they're not as messy,

I do think we could maybe bump them down and then we put Nami at the end of Worth Playing for. I would be fine with that, because I do think, to your point, Mary, Nami is kind of a new era Fong, in that like Fong actually actually did especially post-swap fong did really really well in or actually no they didn't do well but like they were okay enough in the challenges that it didn't just feel like an absolute disaster there's no way they can win

anything nami was able to amplify that but both i think are kind of two sides of the same coin of just groups of people that do not like each other i mean fong has a moment where they're doing the golf challenge and they are bickering with each other standing in each other's faces while they then have to sink this like one foot putt to win the reward challenge and they do that's nami in a nutshell to me yeah i think maybe we put them above fong because they also like tevin and venus have a massive fight they didn't even make this show. It was a secret scene. It was very dramatic. So that's just so much going on with Nami. Like they just, they never liked each other from the get-go.

Yeah. I give it a lot of similarity with Fong. And I would say that it's, it's above Pagong for me. And definitely above Ua because still standing on that part that there are more of them that make it farther, not because they like each other. And so they get to battle it out even further into the season, which is great. I'm putting it above Fong. What do you think, Mary?

I could go either way. I'm happy with either side. I think we're cool. I will keep it below Fong for now. This is where the other side of the recency bias weighs out. That like, I'm good keeping it right next to Fong, but right This is where the other side of the recency bias weighs out. That, like, I'm good keeping it right next to Fong, but right behind it at the moment.

Alright. I don't agree. Two left. I absolutely don't agree, but okay. We mentioned them before as well. They become a verb. Oolong. Now, this is interesting because, like... This is losing-est. Yeah, this is losing-est. You can't spell Oolong without losing, if you were to spell it.

I mean, you can, and you'd probably fail at a spelling challenge, which is probably what Oolong would do as well. I mean, this is also really interesting because, I mean, look at this tribe on paper. They are the younger, as Heidi would say, they have younger, hotter bodies. You would imagine that they would dominate Karor, only for them to completely fall apart. And yes, they're losing challenge records, usually what we remember them for.

But there's still some like interpersonal stuff. The fact that they blindside Jolanda, who handpicked them in the first vote. Everything going on with like Jeff slipping on a coconut and breaking his ankle and asking to be voted out. The two to two to one tie that happens with Angie. James getting blindsided, the first ever winnowing down to one person. There's a lot of memorability baked into this hot mess. And I think we've heard them, right? We did verb them. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, they're losing us, which, again, is a different criteria. I don't know if we think of them as messy, but we definitely think of them as disaster and a spectacular failing, which I still think has to be a criteria yeah i mean for losingest obviously they're they're way up there um there there is a lot of i do think they have a a hot mess quality though because because i mean even even just bobby john turning into a caveman at the end. Like, what was happening? Like, really, I mean, Stephanie is, like, the only one who kind of wasn't a hot mess. And then she comes back and we realize, like, it's kind of the Bruce factory.

It's kind of the Bruce. Little Bruce. Who would have thought that? You were the most normal person on that drive. But now we see you with, like, other normal people. I mean, it's a lesson not to i would say russell swan didn't come back to back back seasons but it's a lesson not to come back from to back to back seasons because then you're just gonna have a huge transformation from the way we initially regarded you i think it's just a very interesting lesson in perspective where like one tribe's normal person is another tribe's not normal person so yeah um i would put

them really high can we see the the list yeah let's see the list it's starting to get a little i think i put them about fog i don't want to be there so everyone's going to hit a funk for me personally i mean i feel like you know fong fong and nami are now sort of paired together as like a hot mess personality wise and uman didn't necessarily have that. Like there were not, they're definitely iconic. Like I think that's really going to, and unlike Pagong, like they,

it holds up when you rewatch the loud. I think it's above Pagong. If we're putting Pagong up there just for the iconicness of it, then I think it's above Pagong. I don't know where the limit then is. Putting it off to Matt Singh. They're in a similar space. Yeah, they're not, they're not higher than Matt Singh. it then i think it's above pagan i don't know where the limit then putting an aftermath saying they're in a similar space yeah they're not they're not higher than matt singh but i think

i think yeah which is also right above i'm good with that i'm i'm good with putting it right here i think we just like to do the color matching as well yes all right so we're definitely not yeah not sending them down the pooper like the outhouse that they built and failed to do during one of the many challenges that they lost. Last, but certainly not least. Maybe least, which would make them the most. Yeah, but it would not be a conversation about hot mess

tribes without one to... Even though we've talked about Vaati and Ua and Tika, this was one that really stirred the conversation up again. Fly, my Lulus, fly. Let's talk about that. Yeah, they're high up there.

They never win. Two of them quit. I do believe they win one reward challenge. Well, rewards don't count. Yeah, I mean, it's probably not for every time. Think about, yeah, but it was for like Pringles, which I love Pringles. Survivor Pringles. for like pringles which i love survivor pringles survivor but like i feel like that yeah i feel like um karol was winning like the like a new shelter and then they

won like pringles um but yeah for lulu yeah two of them quit sabaya the way that that went that was crazy that's the one challenge they won they sent caleb as an envoy but then used that as a reason to try to target him which that ended up in sabaya's boot with an idol in her candle-laden pocket. Also, in case you're curious, based on starting tribes, this tribe and the one we just talked about, Ulan, they have the lowest position. They both have the highest player come in seventh. Well, you can't spell Lulu without, you can't spell losing without Lulu. Yeah.

Right? I think you need to open a dictionary. Can't spell at this time. Yeah. So statistically low, there's the Lulu, there's losing, there's the fact that two of them quit. And those people aren't even the way that it went with Brandon with Emily.

The best player here, Emily, was such a rollercoaster as well. As one of one of like the worst premiere episodes for anyone who wasn't voted out in Survivor history. Yeah, which I mean, makes her iconic. I mean, Caleb, everything that happened there,

like Brandon, I mean, look at this tribe. Caleb's a great player. Like Caleb was holding it down, to be fair. Caleb was great. Yeah, but then they tried to get rid of him in the third episode. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know.

I mean, I think that this is, and Caleb also, like, while it is great for him to say, oh, I'm going gonna pick up emily like maybe if he hadn't done that if he had just said i'm rolling with uh you know whoever else they voted out that time instead maybe it would have been a little more stable throughout caleb like they were losing but they also turned on each other but they're also individually chaotic and two of them quit a third of the time yeah i think that this is this is high this is high this is very high it's like baked into the new era that should lose points and yet it even like supersedes that

when a lot of this was on them and i understand that editing is a thing but when you go from a viewer perspective into the first tribal council and half of them have been talked about as people to go whether it's like hannah struggling in the elements, Caleb for being considered, you know, like, oh, we should turn on them. There's a duo going on. Emily is somebody who obviously is bristling upon people from the jump. You can even throw Brandon in there who's really struggling in multiple ways and says, oh, I'm going to play my shot in the dark just in case people vote for me. It was clear from the very beginning this was a very special type of mess, and that's what the top tier is reserved for.

And I feel like it's kind of like Luzon, but not as much. But they do get the little win of Caleb's shot in the dark hitting. I mean, it was a big win, but then he immediately goes. And that just speaks for where we're at with this tribe. Yeah, so the question is how high here? Because we have, even though vati's uh in the third tier so we have a top five baby of luzon kasaya janu matt singh oolong shannon does

it breach the top five for you i think it's after kasaya for me i think i put it number one of the new era i think that's an iconic top three um and i think then we can talk about we can just slightly shift some stuff but for me it's after kassaya it's to me it's on one one side or the other of yanu and i don't know which side that's what that's where i'm sitting as well yanu gets the win in a way that lulu just i mean caleb maybe but it's just right i do think lulu is a worse tribe. But is it... Okay. Yannou is the one with Kenzie. Kenzie.

It sort of is like, you know, okay, Lulu doesn't have the post-merge members turning on each other so succinctly and argumentatively as Yannou did, but that's also because they're... They self-destructed earlier. They're messier. I think they're above Yannou. That's that's also because they're more than a little in. They self-destructed earlier. They're messier. I think they're above Yannou.

That's because for most of the merge, the only Lulu there was Emily. And it's not just because they're so losing. There was no need for Sean to quit. He let the intrusive voices win. Even yet, Emily,

she ends up obviously being a great player but like from where we started her calling up bruce on the mat like no one asked for her to do that so yeah i think can we move the gong down because now looking all right so yeah i think the gong needs to move down into the let's start analyzing here let's make pagong the kings and queens of my life is pine putting them above ua i would still argue moving the villains up to the bottom of ain't no hershey bar because i think the messy the messiness of the villains we remember yes i think from a big picture side of things it's definitely pales in comparison but like i feel like forget you go home goodbye to your point mary should be questioning okay there's not a lot of mess that i

remember until you really squint and take a look you remember how messy the villains tribe was and how much they didn't like each other at points mary doesn't want to do it well no this is this is not a hill i'm worth i'm deciding to die on i could go either way with that because i i think the one problem that i have with the problem I have with villains is I feel like if you want to move it up and put it in a Hershey bar, you need to put the hero's tribe on here and they also need to be in that same spot. Like, I think that the hero's tribe... You're saying I'll do

it under the condition that I add a 21st tribe? Well, I think my problem is that I just think that the whole season has a lot of mess and a lot of issues. A lot of the things a lot of issues. A lot of, a lot of the things that are messy about the villains tribe are instigated by the heroes tribe.

I'm breaking the tie. I didn't get the feeling and it's all about the ain't no Hershey bar feeling. It's just very distinct. So I'm going to keep it down. I forget you go home. Goodbye. If I'm breaking this tie and I think otherwise, like it looks pretty good.

Like for Fong, I know in the chat and saying Gabon and Fong is mess and i i would i said gabon the messiest season i just for me fong in itself this iteration isn't as memorable as a group because there are swaps and it's like also messy throughout that's the only reason that i was lower on it but yes like super messy the entire season is like the messiest season i'm not saying that's not true um but yeah i still think i think we've done incredibly well all right so let me just read out the list in order from bottom to top here starting from in our opinion the least hot mess the coldest mess tribe is ravu the have-nots from fiji then we move up to tadhana the loved ones tribe from blood versus water we have hunapu the original drew christ Loved Ones tribe from Blood vs. Water. We have Hunapu, the original Drew Christie Flint losing tribe from San Juan del Sur.

Totang, the Brawn tribe from Ko Rong, not Cho Chang. There we have the Villains tribe, perhaps controversially, from Survivor Heroes vs. Villains. Moving up a tier, Ain't No Hershey Bar, only a Gruesome Twosome occupying this slot. We have Mata'amu from Marquesas and Vati from Survivor 42. Moving up to My Life is Fine, starting from the bottom there, we have both Manu and Lesu, because it's basically the same group, from Edge of Extinction. Tika from Survivor 44.

Timbira from Token Chains. Ua from Survivor 41. And one of the OG tribes, Pagong from Borneo. And finally, in our top tier, worth playing for from the bottom up, Nami from Survivor 46, Fong from Gabon, Oolong from Palau,

Mat Sing, a similar blue losing tribe from Philippines, Yanu from 46, followed by Lulu from 45. And our top two are Kasaya and in first place, the Brain Slash Crap for Brains Tribe in Luzon. It's good.

It's a very, very good list. The criteria was hard. It did break my brain. But now that we're here, I think we defined it and I think it makes so much sense. And I'm just looking forward to 47's Production Built Disaster Hot mess tribe that they create for us so this was fun we did it

i'm so i'm so proud of it mary how are you feeling right now i'm feeling great about it and just one more stat which is actually probably not that interesting when you think about the fact that most seasons had two tribes but nine of these tribes had a had a winner so hey that's nearly a 50% success rate yeah of the hot messiest tribes and a lot of them also had second or third place players so i think that yeah this is this is fun it was great i um i'm glad we did this yes yeah i liked it i think we really broke down the difference between a losing tribe, a toxic tribe, and a messy tribe. I love how you paused after you said, I think we really broke down. And the debates have already started because I have already received a response

from one Shane Powers tweeting me, Luzon wasn't a tribe. They were a group of individuals. Kasaya bonded together as a community. I believe, let me bring it up on screen. I believe the only tribe to not flip on itself post-merge even with all the insanity and crazy we were dominant and held our singleness oh my god your list is wrong we're not gonna call out my shape i was on the podcast now it truly feels like a rite of passage has occurred for podcasters okay wait firstly shade

powers i hate to disagree and i'm not going into this, but, like, the fact that you bonded together is, like, to a detriment in this list that we're ranking. That's a positive thing, which makes it negative in the list. In saying that, and the fact that Shane is calling us out, I am terrified, and that might move Kasaya up, because that is messy. It's on the podcast.

What the hell? Shane depends on the quality of your apartment. Shane's point is a reason why Luzon is messier. However, when you were reading all that, I'm sitting here going, wait, I was thinking Shane was Randy for a second. And I was like, he's not on either of those tribes. I have my address.

Oh my God. We just both went to my same house on the podcast. I love Shane. My brother has started and we just have to sit with the fact that this is happening and then we're just going to go back to our lives. I mean, is this not the hottest, messiest way to end

a hot mess tribe tier list on Summer of Survivor? This isn't me. This isn't, this isn't. What? Why is Shane watching this? I love it. Thank you.

Thank you, Shane, for watching. Of course, I'm sure people will have opinions about where these things lie. Of course, let your thoughts be known or we know that ranking is arbitrary and reductive but happy to go through the exercise tonight with you all uh let's go around the hoard and plug not our home addresses but perhaps other things that we're working on mary what are you doing um what am i doing oh i actually do i have something that

all right besides like the typical uh big brother 26 nonsense that's going on um i am actually due to due to some people asking about it first off yes we will be very briefly covering um love is love is blind uk don't worry about it we will we will have an episode about that coming out sometime soonish um the other thing i'm doing is over on kowski cast uh keep your keep your feed ready because in the next couple days we will be doing a uh brief and quick and dirty umbrella academy rewatch in order to get uh get up to date on season four so haven't seen season four yet but we will be covering one episode per season uh it'll be happening over there all right i love to get

your feed ready that's a great way to prep people i don't know open your gullet and swallow some podcasts yes um shannon tweeting for ages though because he quote tweeted as well he said i may come into this life of this if kasai isn't one this entire list is bogus garbage that was two hours ago then he said how do i zoom in on the slide these dudes have it wrong and i want to state my case unfortunately we did not have time for either shane or anyone from the chat to come on because of big brother the hot messiest of the shows yeah you should definitely respond to that shannon by saying oh sorry it's big brother it's big brother time unfortunately we also had people from the chat we wanted to bring in shane we can't have time for everything so oh my god shane's watching this no it's not hypothetical i'm so sorry shane powers i'm just

i want the podcast to end and i'm pretty sure sam is telling us we've got to go plug and get out yep i hear you summer of survivor that's me and we'll have more stuff after that that will be fun we'll plug it next week goodbye bye shane i'm sorry i love kasaya i love i love kasaya we love kasaya it was it was a tough thing. We had to choose between our children in this case, our hottest, messiest children. I mean, the thing that I will plug is next week what we're doing on Summer of Survivor, which is,

in case you don't know, the top 50 of the Survivor 50 wish list has been released, and we have one more round of voting. So robhasawesite.com slash vote50. Do what you did the first round. Vote for the 20 people you want to see on Survivor 50. Vote for Shane Powers. Vote for Shane Powers. There we go. You know that despite the hat, I did not vote for Boston Rob. I did vote for Shane Powers.

There we go. So be sure to put your votes in. Voting is done at 12 p.m. Eastern on Tuesday. And then this time next week, Rob will be back in-house as the three of us will break down the results and reveal the top 20 vote-getters, a.k.a. the fan-voted cast of Survivor 50. Outside of that, other thing I'll plug is that The Anonymous is a new social strategy show airing

on USA Network. It's on a bunch of other networks as well. I think it's coming to Peacock on Monday. Check out the first three episodes. It's a really fun show. Pouya and I got together to talk through our thoughts on the first three episodes, what we liked, what we're looking forward to. And if you want to check out more coverage of that

after watching the show, be sure to let us know. And let us know your thought about this tier list as well. This was such a great time. Thanks to everybody for hanging out in the chat. Thanks to Shane for peeping in as well. I'm excited to see what's to come next week as we reveal the voting of the Survivor 50 wishlist next week with Rob. Don't miss it.

6 p.m. Eastern live. Same bat time, same bat channel. Thank you all so much for listening. Mary, Shannon, thank you both so much for your fantastic work.

Until next time, everybody take care. Bye-bye.