RHAP: We Know Survivor - Survivor 50 Flashbacks: Angelina Keeley’s Post Game Interview & Mike White’s Exit Interview

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

This week, we're flashing back to Angelina Keeley's post game interview and Mike White's exit interview.

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With flexible coverage options from TV insurance, you only pay for what you need. need. T.D. Ready for you. Hey, everybody. What's going on? Rob, Sisterino, back with you for the Survivor 50 flashback series. And today, boy, do we have a special one for you today? Because we are going to be going back to listen to two different interviews I did with Survivor 50 cast. members from the same season, we are going to hear maybe the most infamous exit interview in the history of Rob is a podcast. That would be my conversation with Mike White from, this was December 20th, 2018, believe it or

not, some seven years ago when Mike White called in. And then I'm also going to bring you my deep dive from after the season with Angelina. that's from February 3rd, 2019. So first up is going to be my exit interview with Mike White. And this was just a moment that, you know, sometimes a Rob is a podcast moment takes years to become iconic and others become instantly iconic. And this was one of those moments because Mike White had been,

and I've talked about this a lot. I feel like that, you know, I was in the wrong. for on a couple of different fronts that I was making some jokes about Mike White. Listen, 2018 me was dumber. I like to think I get smarter as time goes by. But some of Mike White's previous film works were a blind spot for me. I had even recently in the last year saw School of Rock for the first time with my kids, and we loved it.

And so I had been in 2017. we had separately been making a lot of jokes about the emoji movie. We went to go watch it on NewsAv. Had no idea that Mike White had anything to do it, do with it. And then when Mike White became a part of Survivor David versus Goliath, that was one of the things that we, you know, at that time, I don't know, it was a little bit more in the zeit guys. And I had asked a lot of guests about, were they familiar,

with the emoji movie just as, you know, a thing to make banter on the podcast. Mike White did not appreciate that when he had done so many other great things. Also, I think Mike White had felt like that I did not give enough credit to his game. I would say that maybe the edit didn't give as much credit to Mike White's game.

I think that he was expecting me as the survivor, quote unquote, expert that I am to be able to read a little deeper into things. And I think that hopefully with time, Mike has gotten more credit for his game. So there were some issues famously that he had with me and he was able to air them. And I always said that this was, you know, an incredible moment. And hopefully I was able to roll with the punches here as we listen in to Mike White back on the 20th of December 2018.

Hey, Mike. How are you? Good morning. Morning. Mike, how are you doing today? hungover which is worse today or the day after you were looking for the idol after drinking the wine last night i didn't get hungover after drinking the wine i don't know i feel worse today okay um mike after uh this whole experience first off uh job well done on uh 39 days

making it all the way to the end and ultimately second place uh was it a disappointment to you get so close but then ultimately come up short? I don't want to talk about this. You know what I'm talking about Rob? You're a jerk. Yes? Okay. Please go on. So many people are saying finally, somebody is talking about

what they want to hear about. Okay, so this is my beef with you. Okay. So first of all, we met. You know we met, right? Yes. Okay. And two, like, when on my CBS

bio they said who are you going to play the game like i said you do you know that yes okay so you know this i'm like thinking like you know so i'm like thinking like you know so i'm checking out your podcast and like i'm like okay well he's gonna like you know i'm already like you know giving under caesar what is ceasers but like he just the very first time it was like oh it was like it was my like first with my like bio photo which like we were like whoa oh my god this guy like like this is not going to be his new headshot. And then I was like, I actually went back and looked at the photo. I was like, oh, is this a bad photo?

No, this is just what I look like. So, like, starts there. I was like, okay. I thought that the sun was in your eyes on the photo. But then at the beginning, you're like, I could have seen much better photos of you. No, dude. It's just me.

And actually, I went to CBS. This is funny. I was like, oh, I guess my photo's bad. So like, I don't know. And then like, they were like, literally, that's the best photo. They, like, showed me all the photos. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is the best photo. But anyway, whatever.

Okay. But then, then you start talking about, like, what my game is going to be. And you're like, oh, yeah, he's not going to do well. He's not going to do well. And then, like, on the next podcast, like, this was early on. I was like, I think I was too easy on Mike White. I actually think he's definitely not going to do well. He was like, okay.

So he doesn't bother to do well. See, but you get to have the last laugh because you did do well. Yeah, but even then later, Rob, like later when I was down at, like the final eight, like there was like some question like oh did you think that Mike are you surprised that Mike white made of the final eight and you're like no I'm not that I'm actually not that surprise what I am surprised is that they chose him over Christian for the basketball challenge like Jesus Christ I can't even get you to like say oh yeah no actually you played a good game it was like no I see that like I don't know whatever I'm just surprised he got picked for

the freaking dude Mike this is the best exit interview that I'm not done I'm not done yes anytime this is this here's my impression of you yes you'd have somebody on the thing you'd be like so what do you think of mike what do you think of what do you think of my wife and they'd be like oh you know i like it you know he's good or whatever i like him all right yeah yeah yeah okay are you a fan of his films are you are you a fan of his movies and he'd be like well people like oh i like oh yeah if you've seen the emoji movie i got a DVD for the emoji movie i can give you i'm like jeez that's right i'm going to send you a DVD of The Scorned, and then

we can be... Yeah, how would you like it, Rob? If you, like, heard me on something, and I'm like, are you a fan of Rob, said, you know? Are you fan of him? Like, oh, yeah, he's gonna do that. Well, have you heard his Lisa Mattress's commercials with his wife? Really? I could burn you a DVD of that. I worked on the Mojibu for two weeks,

and it's not covered by the WGA, so they can put your name on it, and you take the money. Like, whatever. But it's like, I mean, I've made 15 or whatever, movies. Go check out some of my other shit, dude. You don't respect me. I should. I should. I apologize. I know you're so busy with the Walking Dead

in the emoji movie, but fucking there's, you know, some, I mean, some people respect me, or you don't, like, whatever, but are you a fan of the emoji movie? Are you a fan of Mike White? Whatever, dude. That's, that's the impression to me.

Mike, well, let me just say. Like, Mike, are you sure? Okay, uh-huh, have you seen my own his later You ever seen emoji movie? Oh, my God. And this is the guy I was like, oh, yeah. I hope that I'll have my game like Rob Cestrina because he was such a good judge of people.

I was like, oh, my God, this guy can't give me a freaking two positive words, this whole freaking. Well, that hold on, hold on. Let me just rebuttal in terms of the breakdown of the game because I felt like that your game really kicked into gear when you got to seven. I felt like that there was the flip at nine where...

Well, let me tell you how I saw it and then you can tell me what I missed. But I felt like that you really kicked into gear at seven when you were working on flipping the vote against Christian and then I thought that the vote against Davy was another great move. And I thought that you came on very strong at the end. Thanks.

but okay so Mike so tell me tell me what tell me about some of the things I missed along the way

uh well I mean the truth is you know it like the game is a social game it's a 90% social game

and it's hard to depict like why people um you know it's like how you get into a position of influence

and it's something you know like that was building you know it's like all like like for me like like the five people at the end were people that all I you know I had had created this like final two relationship with um and so you know it's like it it is a hard like I mean I know it's not just you like a lot of people are like he's doing nothing he's doing nothing like uh so but at by the same time like you know what you're doing there it's like you know it's a social game it's just like carrot like she played a great social game like it doesn't it seems like Like, you know, it's easier, like, what's weird is on the island, it's like, you know, like those big vote out, like the, the, the, the big tribal is that everybody got excited about where the Davis played all their advantages.

It's funny how, like, those play when you're there, it's almost like, huh? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, well, let's go back to playing the game. It was, it's almost like they're, like, weird, like, distractions from, like, the social game that is the, the essence of survival. You know what I mean? Which is not to say they're not, it's, I'm not discounting that part of it, but it's, but, uh, it's just funny. Like, I, I just, you know, like, there are all these times where I stuck my neck out, like, Goliath Strong, but like, then they never came for me.

Part of it is, like, how you're working everyone. You know what I mean? It's like, you make mistakes, but then how you stay in the game and how you, like, how do you bob and weave? And it's not necessarily, you know, it's like, like, you know, you know, you know, you know, Like, people talk about it as far as big moves, you know, but I mean, it's, you know, I know, I don't know what I'm saying, but it's, yeah, I definitely throw the end. It was like I felt like I had more, it was more obvious what I was doing, but. Do you feel like that, you know, had you played in an earlier season that was not as idle and advantage heavy that your game would have been better recognized?

I don't know I mean you know it felt like with the jury it was pretty recognized but I but as far as like how they are you talking about like

how the how it aired or something I guess you could talk about it both ways do you feel like you get the win and do you feel like that it's shown with less focus on sort of like the finding the idols and then playing of the idols and sort of the shock and awe that happens at these tribal councils

do you feel like that there's more attention that they're able to give to your game? Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And I think that honestly, like, the way that they've now structured, like, the tribal and, like, you know, what they, you know, it's like you definitely feel like they won a winner who they can show how they won.

You know what I mean? Like, they don't want to show a winner who played, like, a kind of under the radar social game that was effective. I mean? Because I just think it's hard to, you know, it's not satisfying. and I think that would have been the case

had I had won. So from what I understand in terms of the design of your game that you were not necessarily the person that was out in front making the move, but you were the person who was advising the move. And I felt like that there was a secret scene that really demonstrated this particularly well a couple of weeks ago,

which I did talk about on a couple of occasions where you were sort of painting yourself as the advisor to these moves, which served you well to get to the end. but is that a difficult game to explain to the other players at the end where that I was actually the one who was, you know, putting the poison in your ear? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny. Like, I actually feel like I had more votes going into the final travels than I had coming out of it. So I do think, I do think that like, I definitely think that like, you know, the juries are so big now that I think the people.

at the early end of the jury like Elizabeth and John and Dan I don't think they were I mean I did play with them but like they weren't really there for the last you know like a huge chunk of it

so it's like and it is weird to be like yeah I do feel like they didn't really you know at that point I was kind of on my heels you know and not really

I hadn't like kind of worm my way back into some you know leverage so like I just don't think they had the same um it was just it was yeah it was one of those things where I was like I'm I almost like I'm like I'm never gonna get those books because they're never gonna yeah it's like it's you had to be there kind of thing like you know so I think I was more successful with the later uh because I think those people were seeing you know like I was also like my whole thing was like playing this kind of like I'm just here for you know the sunsets and, you know, like, I'm not a thread and, like, I can't find my canteen and, like,

I was, you know, playing a sort of dopey, you know, whatever guy sitting on the beach watching the sunsets. And I think that, like, you know, it was, yeah, that was their impression and, and I hadn't really been able to show what I was doing out there over time with them. Now, Mike, last night we saw Davey get voted out and he said, okay, I turned around and And he said, whoever, whoever put this blindside together, you just got my vote for the finals. But then ultimately, Davey voted for Nick. Do you feel like that Davy should have given you his vote? I never, I never, I knew Dave was never going to vote for me.

I mean, I feel like maybe those just some theatrics heading out of there on his part. I don't know. Davy was definitely about, like, you know, you just, you know, you got to respect the gameplay. And I do think he probably really respected. game play because it was, you know, a little, you know, he's, you know, they'd work so closer together. But, yeah, uh, now that was not one of the votes that I was, uh, ever considered getting. Okay. Mike, have you ever contemplated going on to celebrity big brother? Would you be the first person to ever complete the CBS trifecta? No. No, you're, you're down on

Big Brother? No, I, I don't really watch Big Brother, but it's, I mean, for, for me, it's, it's kind of like the adventure of like you know it's like I want to get out of L.A. Like I was like sitting in a sound stage in Burbank

for like weeks on end eating like crappy food it sounds like like I've already done that that's what I do most of my life in my life anyway. Is there anything in particular that you feel like that

that happened out there that you wish you would have been shown? Uh well you know there was time I definitely I mean you know, like I, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm ribbing you, but I, but like there was, it was, it's like, I, you know, I, I, you know, I came away after the results of the thing and being like, I, you know, like, I, you know, like, it was, you know, like, you know, like, you know, the other players talking about my game. And I think that was news to the audience.

So there was a part of the audience. Right, no, but I mean, it's understandable. It's like I see why people feel that way based on, you know, it's like you only, you know, like they are crafting. I mean, you know, I think they've done an incredible job with it. Like, I do think this show is like, you know, like, I mean, considering how complicated it all is, you know, and how little time they have. I think they've, I would not say it's like, it's completely accurate. except for like all the misdirect but like yeah there's just

certain things that it's just hard to you know depict and like there's times you know just like I mean I'm not really somebody who like I mean I listen to your podcast Rob just as a way to torture myself but in general I don't go online and you know read all the like whatever

screeds but I but I you know there's times there you know you do find yourself in a warm one you're like oh everybody sees me as like this like you know goat who's doing nothing out there and I was like that's not I mean like that part of you just go no I played a I played a very game

on that but yeah but that's you know it is it's like being able to play it and do it was you know worth whatever you know frustrations it's like oh yeah you had to be there for a moment yeah well Mike I know you gotta run but let me

apologize again that my goal is is not to ever offend and I know I thought, there was times I was like, is he like, I just, I was like, he must think that I just would never listen to Rob has a podcast or something. Like, maybe just doesn't know. I'm out there, like, listening just like all the other. You know, I get the little, you know.

You know, you are, that's right. I did not think that you were, that you were listening. But I do have to, you know, that the reason why I would ask people about your work is I wanted to, if people were like, oh, my God, I love School of Rock. Are you a fan? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I love School of Rock. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. What about his later work? What about the emoji movie? Jesus Christ. I've had three movies come out since the emoji movie. I worked out of the movie two and a half. I don't see enough movies. I don't ever, I like the people that were involved in that movie. And I'm, and I'm not, it usually is not a bone of contention for me. But, like, the fact that, like, you could not get through one interview without bringing up the emoji. I was like, Jesus Christ, is that like one of you're like, I mean, were you traumatized in the movie?

I was not traumatized. Did you do a podcast? I did a podcast. I did a podcast on that movie. We did do a podcast, and that's why it was sort of top of mind. So, again, Mike, I apologize, and I wish you were nothing but the best. And congratulations on all your success in and outside of the game of Survivor. Forget it.

You're too late. You already, like, came at me, like, you know what you did, Rob. As Lauren said to Heidi. on the hills. You know what you did. Yes. Well, Mike, all the best, okay? All right, take care.

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After all, you're in your small space, say Sarah. It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca. To switching gears, let's listen to my interview that I did with Angelina, who was such a big character in Survivor David versus Goliath. I got the chance to talk with her a few months after the season had ended. And I think that we had been going back and forth of trying to set up a time to do that. I had spoken to Christian right after the season, but then after the holidays, probably shortly before Survivor, the Edge of Extinction was going to come on. Angelina and I had a great chat about her game, and you can hear that now as we get ready

to watch Angelina play on Survivor 50 in just a few months. All right, everybody, I'm very excited to bring in our guests today that we've been waiting for this, and we're so excited that this day, is finally here because we are going to speak with a woman who was at the center of so many things here in Survivor David versus Goliath. Please welcome to the podcast, the great Angelina Akili. Angelina, how are you? Oh, thank you so much, Rob.

You're too generous. I think by now, since it's February, it's going to be Angelina who? No, never, never Angelina who. Thank you. Yeah. I'm excited to be talking long overdue, almost honestly, like didn't even do kind of retrospectives because I was excited to just wrap things up and move on. But I'm really glad that we're sitting down and are going to dive through things. Okay, great.

And we're going to talk about a bunch of stuff. I have a lot of questions from the listeners and we can talk about everything that you want to get into. When you say that, you know, you didn't want to do, you know, a ton of retrospectives and look back. Does that come from? Were you happy with the way that ultimately turned out? Or was this a tough journey for you, this whole survivor process? So I think at a season level, I was happy that the season was so exciting and was well received by fans from a viewer, you know, putting my fan hat on.

Like, I was excited to watch it back and I love the twist and turns and it was a dynamic cast and it was all the things that you want from a good season. from a personal perspective though yeah it was super tough to watch back I think you know I don't think I realize the power of storytelling and of an edit until

watching the season back and there were just so many aspects of it that were hard to see because things were intentionally edited out words were changed you know and so it just it was like every episode I was like oh man like I wish they would

have showed this or wouldn't have showed this this way. And like, I think everyone has a semblance of that feeling. But for me, um, what it translated to was a ton of negativity online, people coming after me, a few people threatening me. Like, and I just wasn't anticipating that because I've never experienced anything like that in my life. Um, and kind of adding that on top of like having my husband deploy at the same time. And so it was just a lot at once. Um, and so yeah, it was really hard and there were some really, um, tough days for sure i know that you know because i've been there in terms of getting a lot of feedback at one time and uh not necessarily from the survivor but from you know from doing the podcast

and so i'm sure it's amplified actually being on the show but yeah i feel like that while i'm sure that there were negative things that were that were being said and sometimes we we hear them the loudest that did all the positive things that you heard uh balance that out in any way more than balanced it out like and to your point it's like we as humans have a negativity bias where we'll read 100 good things and see one bad thing and it's the bad thing that sticks with us right and and that's just how our brains are wired unfortunately but I like I tried my best to fight against that inclination and instead I got energy from the positivity and from the people who were supporting me because that's who I was planning for and that's who gave me energy and gave me life and so

I literally, I went on like a hiatus from reading any comments, reading any media or listening. And instead, I just kind of kept to my world. And for the most part, people who came into it, whether it be comments or messages or tweets, were so lovely, so supportive, so excited to see someone like me on the show. And so those are the people that I latched onto and fought for and made me kind of get through those hard days. And honestly, it was like a few young girls, you know, elementary school. middle school who like some wrote me letters some sent me messages their parents would send me messages for them on their behalf saying like you're my role model like i want to be more like you um like i want to play survivor like you and to see that and to hear that and that again like that

washes out any negative um things that i read or saw yeah and i think that really the really nice thing to see is i think that whether people thought that okay i i i loved how you played I had issues with how you played. I think that you raised a lot of issues that I think that because that we had somebody saying those things, that I think that they, for all women, I think that they're, it's positive to be having those conversations, you know, in or outside the game of Survivor. Thank you. Yeah.

And that's, that was one of the silver linings for sure for me. I outside of the game since pretty much college have considered myself very politically active, definitely a women's activist. And I fight for those things in my real life in a broader sense. And to bring a part of that into the game and obviously survivor and finding idols

and things like that are not as consequential as like getting equal pay in real life. But there is a linkage and there is a connection between how can we advance the state of not just women, minorities, like you name it. And I think in real life and survivor, there's still a lot of room for growth.

And so to bring a little bit of attention to that into the show and maybe raise a little bit of awareness there, that is worth its waiting old. And you were even somebody that Jeff Probst talked about. And I think this was with Dalton Ross late in the season that he was asked about who should come back from this cast. and he said that it's Angelina and he cited you know that sort of like that impact that you had I mean how does that feel I was I mean I was an honor to hear that but I think he's crazy I mean there's

so many characters on this season I was like me no like come on Christian Natalie Davy like you name it you can go down the line literally any one of these cast members could return and be like a phenomenal second time player right I think maybe the reason reason he chose me is because you don't see a lot of people like me on the show. In fact, they almost, the head of casting, who's no longer the head of casting,

literally did not want to get me to come to finals because she said, we don't want to cast a woman in her 20s who's married. We don't do it. It's not part of our formula. It's only been done one other time, I believe, Whitney, and she was the one who didn't say that she was married

and end up having a real show. You would think that they had a track record with that they said hey what is being married mean um so literally Whitney was the only other person woman in her 20s um who was a first time player who was married went on the show and so I didn't fit into that formula and what happened was um my casting person actually went around the head of casting showed my stuff to Jeff and he said why haven't we brought her in bring her in I had a special round of casting three weeks before everyone flew out to Fiji and it was just a two-day special session for me

and one kind of one-and-done interview in front of everyone in person and that's how I got on the show. So it was very last minute, I was the second to last person besides Davey to be cast for the season. And so I think part of maybe why Jeff was a little bit excited by me

and what I represented in my character is just because you don't see a lot of people like me yet, but I think that might change because I think I did bring a bit of a different voice and a different flavor to the game and a lot of the twists and turns that happened that made the season exciting and crazy came from me.

I did not anticipate that being the case. I thought I would be boring. I don't think that happened. Well, you were a really great casting choice and for whatever limiting ideas they had about not having you, I think that they were definitely proven wrong about that because that, you know, not only are you,

you know incredibly outspoken which is great for uh for being on the show but that you know that there was no you were you always had a strong opinion about every single thing that happened and people had strong reactions to you on the tribe which is always going to be for you know gold on the you know the worst thing anybody can be on any of these shows is sort of unopinionated and people don't have a reaction to them and that goes for the people that are on the island and for the people at home yeah yeah well thank you yeah so it was a joy to get to watch you all throughout the season. You know, I had heard about you before you even played

because that we have a mutual friend in Adam Klein and we were going to go to Reno in the spring right when you guys were going to play. And he was very excited about you. And he said, my friend is going to be on the season and she is going to be great. you sounded like Adam when you said that I tried

you did you did get yeah no Adam Adam is one of my best friends he was one of my closest friends before going on the show and now that you know I've been on the other side going through the journey and having him as a support brought us even closer together we met each other originally at Stanford he was a couple years behind me

but he actually took my best friend to tour guide prom which oh Tor guide prom that doesn't sound super fun oh no it's actually a last because all the tour guys are super outgoing and crazy and every, yeah, it's like their annual celebration and they have to take someone else who's a tour guide. And so he took my best friend. That's how I met him. And then after school, we ended up doing some work with the nonprofit that he was working for to kind of bring millennials into thinking about how to end

homelessness in the Bay Area and bring kind of a unique skill set to that. And yeah, so we got closer then and stayed in touch. And when his season came on, I was just so excited for him and it was actually the first season that I've ever watched and I'm, it's, my survivor kind of journey has been so funny because my family

are day one fans. The show has been on my TV since I was 11. Every week, they'd get together and you know, you were in there, you were on my living room TV, Robb, and I was the outcast who would walk by, laugh at them and be like,

I just don't understand the show, it looks so ridiculous. People just run around by island, talking to the camera, playing these challenges. Like, I just didn't get it. And I never gave it a shot until Adam was on it. And then I actually, I remember after the first episode, called my mom. And I said, I get it now. I'm so sorry that I've ridiculed you all for like so many years. But like this shows magic. You know, it's so enticing and interesting. And and so after Adam was on it, I just became, you know, really into it and would watch episodes in my free time and ended up. watching over 20 seasons in two years.

Yeah. Is that almost, is it too much to take all that in in a short amount of time where it does, it starts to lose its impact because it all just blurs together? No, I mean, I'm, don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those people who can, like, recall specific moves and instances. But like, the cool part about watching it all in such a tight time frame was that I was able to kind of see an evolution. Because at first I was just watching it back, kind of from present day backwards, and you see the game evolve in reverse order.

And so that was kind of a cool thing because I could pick up on themes of just small changes over time and the evolution of the game. So I really enjoyed that. And I wasn't watching it with the eye for, oh, if I play one day, it was just really captivated me on a personal level. And it was something fun to watch, you know, after a long day of work or something like that. When they first contacted you and the story that, you know, that I've heard anecdotally is that somebody in casting was going, was looking on Adam's page and they found you and they reached out to you. Was there any sort of trepidation of do I want to go and play on Survivor? No trepidation. No. I mean, so, yeah, so it was a complete surprise and the story that you've heard is, is accurate. it. I got a message on Facebook from a casting agent and they said, hey, we found you on his friends on Adam's friends list. You look really interesting. I think you could be great on the show. And then actually I talked to Adam and apparently they had found three women from his Facebook friends because they were looking for like a quote unquote, not my words there is Ivy League attractive women. I don't know. And so and Adam gave them a glowing review of me and said, you have to, you have to cast her like without.

a doubt, blah, blah, blah. So that was a huge endorsement coming from him. And I'm so thankful for that. But yeah, once I started to talk to them, I was like, the adventurous side of me, the competitive side of me was like, no hesitations. Like, this is crazy and so kind of out of the path that I thought I would have in life. But I'm a big proponent of like veering from the course when it feels right. And yeah, everything in my instincts and God always said, yeah, this feels right. This is crazy. But cool. And let's do it. Let's try it. Okay. I want to get into talking about some of the things from your game, but let me just ask you about the David versus Goliath theme, because I've watched this back a bunch of times. And in that

first episode, when everybody is getting onto the mat to start the game, that they show you talking about how, you know, you have like a pity for the other tribe because they seem so pathetic. It's like, aren't they adorable? Like, we have all of the best people on this tribe. And And you seem like they're struggling, getting out of the bow. You feel bad for them to be the day. So that opening scene, the very first scene of me, is completely fabricated. Yes? Completely fabricated.

And I'm not exaggerating. I know on the show they show that I have a tendency to hyperboize. I'm not here. They showed me laughing at a moment when we were laughing about something completely else. Christian had been talking and made a really charming, funny joke, you know, typical Christian. And I start laughing. and if you look at the scene closely, you see Allison and Natalia also laughing.

So I was never laughing at them. I was never mocking them. I never underestimated them. All I said was our tribe is stacked and it seems like it's a little bit not balanced. Unfair. Yeah, and I said, and I'm going to take full advantage of that because anyone would.

Of course you want your starting tribe to do well so that you don't have to go to tribal and that you can last a little bit longer in the game and get to the next step. but yeah so that opening scene actually really made me nervous for the longer arc of the season obviously I knew that I was making it to the last episode and to the end and so I was like oh man this does not vote well for my edit like I am going to be the girl that they want to make out to be this villain to be cocky to be um you know boisterous and all of that and yeah seeing that

opening scene just really made me nervous and I actually had to tell my family when I saw it I was like guys like this I'm gonna be I'm the villain like I'm definitely the villain and I told them I was like I was not laughing at them because like my dad has always been like you never underestimate your opponents you always stay humble and like that's ingrained to me and that is who I am and so to see it kind of the flip the script flipped a bit I was like oh my gosh like this can be a long few months yeah did you not love the idea of sort of being an avatar for the Goliaths to sort of open things up where you know they show a couple different people talking about it and certainly like you have john who really embraces it and natalie who really embraces it but it seems like that uh you did not we're not comfortable with that idea of being seen as sort of one of the figureheads of the goliaths yeah i i think that's super spot on for me and this does not come through at all on the season and and i'll explain why but like i i'm not a goliath like i did not grow up a goliath i grew up very much so a david um You know, I didn't talk about my upbringing much in casting because my family actually asked me to not.

They said, you know, we don't, they're a little bit more private. They didn't want to put, you know, everything on blasts like that, especially on public television. And so in my casting, I just talked a lot about more present day, more like kind of post-college. And post-college, yeah, like my resume screams Goliath, I guess. But I think deep down, maybe technically I am quote unquote a Goliath now, but definitely have imposter syndrome where I'm like, well, if I am a Goliath, like I've only been that for maybe eight years, maybe seven years. But the majority of my life and my entire upbringing, like, yeah, like, you know,

American dream a little bit from my parents. Like they came from very little, got to a more comfortable life, but still there were struggles. And, you know, parents got divorced young. and dealing with that and just, yeah, so from a financial perspective, from an emotional perspective, all of that, more of a David. And, you know, grew up in Sparks, Nevada, smaller town. Um, most people don't go to college there. Like, it's just, again, everything that you see kind of post 21, 20, you know, plus Angelina might say, okay, yeah, for sure, Goliath, but like,

raise a David, have a mindset of a David, even though maybe I have the confidence now of a Goliath. so it was complicated for me and I think there are a few of us who were like that like I know Natalie very much so the same like definitely came from a David background although a Glythe now in every way and so the theme really did not sit well with me because I was like this isn't showing truly who I am

and I think again the edit didn't show it but the reason I was able to get so quickly in with the Davids is because I related to them so much more on a very kind of foundational familial level that they felt more like home. You know, Carl and Davy and Nick felt more like home and felt more like the way that I was raised was similar to how they were raised

and the things they've gone through than it was for like Kara, Alec and Allison and others. Yeah, I certainly understand that and I think I would probably feel the same way, but I think, and I don't remember exactly where I heard this explanation of it, I think that maybe it's either in one of the Jeff interviews from early on in the season,

or that maybe he says this but in terms of like when people walk into the room with the Davids and the Goliath I think the idea was that the Goliath as soon as you know in five seconds okay you get why that person is a Goliath like you don't need to hear their backstory

whereas with the Davids it was a little bit more okay well what and it's like they have what is their secret advantage as opposed to the Goliaths who may have more of the outward advantage where you sort of pick up on it immediately you know, what this person brings to the table. Yeah, and that's fair.

And I get that. And I think my attitude towards life and in thinking about how I approach anything is, yeah, definitely more in the Goliath mindset of like, I'm an optimist. I am a confident person. I am someone who's willing to take risks. And I just feel comfortable in all situations. So I think that, yeah, that's more of a Goliath tendency. So I get that. And that makes sense to me.

But I just think, yeah, there's a lot of nuances within the theme. within every single one of us that, you know, it's not so clear cut. And, of course, that, you know, it's reality TV. So you can't always get into those. Okay. Let's talk about, you know, such a big, iconic moment, not just in this season, but in survivor history, but I need to talk to you about the jacket. And let's listen to that clip just one more time.

Oh, God. I could have your jacket. Yeah. And, Angelina, what, what is? like to have have a moment that you know is going to live on for a very long time because that do you think about it in those terms like as it was happening you know the next morning and stuff like that no all i was thinking was i was cold as hell i was just trying to get a jack yeah a lot of people in the polar vortex can relate i know shout out to everyone in chicago and

else or I'd feel for them. No, yeah, in the moment, that's the funny thing about survivors, like in the moment you're not, if you're playing a game where you're being present and really just, you're not thinking about how it's going to be on TV. You really can't, because then you'll get wrapped up in that, and it's just, it's just

another thing you've got to add to your plate. So you don't think about that. And I think, and I said this in the post, you know, in the after the finale show. The reunion. Yeah, you get, you get kind of wrapped up in the moment.

You don't realize how things could look and how it's going to all play back. And yeah, in the moment it didn't feel as wild or iconic, I guess. I don't mean that, you know, other people's words, not mine. But it's just ridiculous. The whole thing is just crazy.

Like, if I could do it again, I would not have asked Natalie for her jacket because I think it was just the beginning of kind of a snowball effect for me that was not good for me over my perception amongst others but honestly I just I wasn't sleeping at night

it was freezing cold I think other people have noted like it was raining for pretty much the first two weeks of the season and a lot of it was at night and our shelters were not waterproof like especially with the amount of rain we had like it was like Chinese water torture it was like coming through the top

and you know Jevenny Mike would sleep on the beach she didn't like to sleep next to people there said didn't want to sleep next to know she was in her coffin And it was like, that's what she called it. It was like a coffin that she would sleep alone in. And then Nick would just kind of wrap up in his weird lawyer jacket.

And I was just like, why is it a weird jacket? He was just a weird jacket. Like he said he was a social worker, but he had his suit come on. And it's weird because you see someone, you're just like in the jungle and you're so raw and gross. And then you see someone in like a professional jacket. It's just so out of place.

So that's why it was weird. It was just, you know, it was just out of place. So. But, Angel Lee, you, that I think it's interesting that you said that if you had to do it over again, you wouldn't have done it. And it became such a, such a big moment. And I feel like that so many of these survivor players would, you know, what bodily organ would they not give up to have a moment like that that gets played

over and over again is the reason why you wouldn't do it again was because you felt like that it had some sort of a long-term ramification on the game or because it, or because of the perception that people had about you after it happened? Both, but mostly because of the ramification in the game. I think looking back on it, I was playing too hard too fast between putting my neck out there in a big way to get Jeremy out instead of Natalie, you know, the first Goliath boat, and then compounding that with this whole jacket shenanigan.

It just started to create a theme, I think. think of me being a little schisty, kind of willing to do whatever it takes. And again, it's like I could go back and explain everything I was thinking for all of those moves. But when I kind of saw the ripple effect that had in terms of how people were seeing me, especially Nick and Mike, and then compounding that with all the Elizabeth stuff, it's just you kind of see the damage that things like this do. And so that's why I say wouldn't have done it again.

But in the moment, it's like I was going off with the fact that Natalie actually told me after we got Jeremy out, she was like, she was mad because Jeremy had asked her for her jacket before that first Goliath tribal. And it's shown in a secret scene on CBS. Yes, yes, I see it. And she took a lot of offense to that because she was just like, that's so rude. Like here's this cocky guy saying like, you know, it's you sis. Like, can I have your jacket before we go to tribal?

And so when we got back, she actually told me. me like things for for helping you know get this vote happening and so it wasn't me and um she said if I ever did leave I would I would leave my jacket to you and so that little nugget it was very similar to kind of what happened with Sarah Lucina and Sierra um where Sierra said if I leave I'm going to will this legacy to you and for me it's like yeah it was like it was like okay I was like okay well you know if the timing's right I'm not going to get Natalie out just for her jacket but if it's like she's going anyways and if I could get her jacket too then she's already said that she would give it to me so that was something that wasn't shown that was a really critical

piece of information because again I wouldn't have made such a crazy move how I not thought there was a small chance of getting it but I always knew it was very unlikely a bit of a moonshot to try to get it but I was so cold and not sleeping that to me it could have changed my game in the sense of better sleep you know better sleep so many things and it's such an advantage in that way and I just had a thin sweater that was wet perpetually. And so, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's where it all came from. But again, seeing it back and seeing the snowball and the way that the ties kind of turned after that, it definitely was not worth it.

But that's why I did it. Now, one of the things I was always confused about was in the episode, we see you talking with Natalie about the Learza jacket. Was that just, were you just trying to just plant that seed in her head again? of, boy, I could really use a jacket. Hint, hint, hint. And then when she's going to get voted out, then pop the question of, can I get the jacket? So at that point, at that point,

I really was not going after Natalie yet. So what happened is we get back from that immunity challenge. And something that wasn't shown that was really critical was at the immunity challenge. Natalie and Mike went at it. Right before we started the challenge, we were kind of doing our one minute of strategizing. And Natalie was really adamant on being the first one to try the snake puzzle at the end. And Mike basically shut her down and said, no, you're not doing it.

You didn't get the last puzzle when you were on it with Allison. You're not doing it. And so that really rubbed out the wrong way, you know, for obvious reasons. And she was so upset by it that she didn't even want to touch the snake puzzle at the end. And so as we're in the middle of the challenge live, those two start yelling at each other, essentially. And he's like, well, we've all tried it. And she's like, no, I'm not going to do it. And it was a pretty big blowup.

I'm really surprised actually didn't get shown because it was quite contentious. But what happened was we get back and Mike was really pissed about that. And he just had had enough with Natalie at that point. It was kind of his breaking pointy thing. And what I quickly realized from just taking a temperature was that Mike was done with her, done playing with her. Nick, you know, obviously Nick and Lursa had been rubbed the wrong way from those few days with her.

For me, I actually had a really good relationship with Natalie. We would laugh quite a lot. Like, we got along pretty well. Of course, they were a couple of times when it's like, you know, she told me that my big butt got heavy on the wheelbarrel race, even though I helped us win immunity as a team. So it's like, there's little moments like that where you're like, why are you saying this to me?

Like this is not helpful to your game or our relationship, but you kind of laugh it off. and so it's like it just to me it was it was kind of written in the stars at that point that I couldn't put my neck out two times in a row for her and so I I kind of had to go with the wins and I knew that I kind of had look at the broader numbers and thought that if if Natalie stayed around and we got theirs out and I was banking on us losing again because hashtag Jimene means champion it also means you suck and um And so I just was kind of playing out the larger numbers and Natalia had already gone.

And I knew that if Natalie got out that we were tied up with the Goliaths and David's across the board, I believe 7-7 at that point. And so to me it was kind of a broader assurance that I knew Mike was smart enough to not go into the merge losing the Goliath majority. And so I felt like, okay, if we get Natalie out, then that gives me a little bit of cover for the next time we lose for it to be a David. And so there were a lot of rationale for it. but essentially the Learza jacket comment was genuine at that point. I mean, we were kind of bantering because I was like kind of what Natalie and I did was a good, like, you know, joke around or whatever. But then when I started to see that the tides were really strong for Natalie, I went back to her and I was like, I really want a jacket. And I kind of knew she would go to bat for me.

And she did. And it almost solidified that Nick wanted her out because she was asking for his in a really direct way. and it just created this bit of a stir around camp. And on a tribal day, having a stir around camp is actually a good thing because if it can keep the target where the target's supposed to be, then that is good cover that the winds won't shift towards you. How is your relationship with Natalie now after the season? It is, we talk.

I really care about her and have a lot. of respect for her. I think, um, you know, we had to talk three things on this side, you know, in the real world side. And I think, I think we're good now. Um, of course, you know, she can speak from her side, but from my perspective, I think we're good. You know, we're not best friends by any means. We don't talk all the time. But, um, but yeah, we, we do have a, a cordial relationship and, um, I mean, I, I love the lady. I have so much respect for her. So hopefully in time, um, you know, maybe we can rebuild a bit, but when things like that happen on TV, sometimes it can be hard on the other side.

And she just felt like the move was very inauthentic and manipulative. And I don't blame her for that. You know, looking back on it, it does look that way. But the truth is that I was really sad that she was leaving, right? So the only thing that was fake about my reaction was acting surprised. Obviously, I wasn't surprised. I knew where the votes were going. Yeah.

And I acted like I went with her earlier stuff. But yeah. Well, not for anything. that if I mean you did you voted you didn't even vote against her I mean there was I mean what could you do that if if Mike White decides hey I'm voting out Natalie at this tribal council I mean what are you supposed to do yeah yeah exactly but I think you know she she didn't like that I did like the whole charade at the end of being sad and I get it I get it but it was a bit too much but the truth the truth is that there was a part of me that was genuinely

sad to see her go because she was someone who I really liked and who I saw struggle out there with relationships and with being understood. And I related to that a little bit. And I just, yeah, I just really enjoyed or even, you know, rough edges and all. But in so, you know, it's complicated. Like any of these relationships and any of these votes, it's like, it's complicated. And so, again, wouldn't have done it over. But my first plan actually, Jacket Gate 1.0 was just getting everyone to leave our coats in the dry box with the wood before tribal. I was like, It looks like it's going to rain.

We don't want to get all of our clothes wet. Like, we should just leave them here. And that was good to go for like an hour. And then the paranoia started to spread and everyone snatched up their clothes before trying. So it was a simple plan at first. And then it got really complicated when that changed. So say, love you. It looked like that Natalie was going to be the first person that was voted out of the Goliath tribe.

And then you, you know, from what I understand about the season, were really a. key component in getting Natalie to stay the first time you guys went to the tribal council. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it was one of the situations where a lot of group think was going on and people are like, oh yeah, we're just, we're just

going to get Natalie out. Like, you know, she had run Natalia the wrong way, a few others. And that was the quote unquote easy vote. And my mindset is why go for the quote unquote easy vote when you can get someone out that might be a bigger threat longer term.

and someone who you don't trust and I trusted Jeremy less than Natalie and so for me I had heard a little bit of rumblings of Jeremy just around he had been throwing out Allison's name and a few others and so I was able to

kind of take that momentum and push it but you know just because I was the driver all of these that's the thing about all these votes is every single vote is collaborative right so you can go back and say oh that was Angelina's vote it's like no it's like different people play a different role and I was definitely the driver in that situation

but again, lots of collaborators and you can say that about any of the votes and I think that is a testament to the progression of the game where the people who are being cast is that there's very few followers. There's a lot of leaders and there's a lot of really smart people we're going to bring their own strategy and flavor to the game and I think at every vote during our season

you see that there's agency within everyone. I don't think there were any goats in the game. Others might disagree but for me that was the fascinating part about our game is that our season is that at every vote there are multiple people who you could point to as quote unquote leading because there's multiple leaders at the table I think for all these votes. So when you talk about there being no goats in the game, were you feeling at all like when you went to that final tribal council that you had a fighting shot to get the votes in the end or did you feel like that this was going to be a real uphill climb for you. and not even when there was a ladder. No ladders, yeah, no ladders, no waterfalls, huge uphill climb. I mean, I was foggings into that.

I was aware of that perception pretty much after Elizabeth left that, you know, my social capital had dropped, had plummeted if I was a stock, I'd be like a penny stock, you know? You could buy them cheap and then hopefully value increased over time. I think my value increased a little bit over time, but not enough to get me over the hump. And so, yeah, I'm going into that final tribal. My mindset was to just be honest, to be fair, to be gracious, and to articulate what I thought were my strengths, but not to oversell. And I think I did a good job of not overselling at the end and of being quite balanced. but at the same time

I think I might have kind of overcorrected a bit because at the beginning of that final tribal John who was someone I was really close to in the game tried to give me a bit of a heads up that there was a perception of me as maybe being inauthentic or I think political

was the term or just always kind of being like being overly articulate and things like that and he just wanted to give me a chance to defend myself and explain myself before we even launched into a lot of the questions of final tribal. And I think John had good intentions in telling me that and letting me speak to that. But I think what it ended up doing was it made me feel like I couldn't be myself. It made me kind of second guess what I was saying, how I was saying it. And at final tribal, you can't hesitate. You got to just own it and just speak how you speak and all of that.

And so I think I took my foot off the pedal a little bit, especially after hearing that from John, it did make me feel like, oh man, I've got like a shot in hell of getting any votes. And so again, I just wanted to wrap up my game in a fair and honest way. And I think I did that. But I don't think I took enough ownership and I don't think I spoke up enough or even push back enough on Nick and Mike for certain comments that they made towards me and my game because I was just so focused on ending in a classy way, especially since some, of the moves I made were not so classy.

Do you feel like there's one thing that you wish you would have said that you thought of after the fact? Several. Yes. Yeah, several things. And to be honest, like, there were things that I could have said, for example, Nick, you know, definitely threw me under the bus when he told Allison, I was trying to embarrass her, which was not the entire truth.

I think it's a much more complicated answer than that. And we can get into... We'll talk about that. Yeah, we'll get there. But I could have said things that Nick had said to me privately that would have guaranteed almost four people not voting for him. But that's not what I wanted to do. I didn't want to start playing that tip for tack game.

I didn't want to start throwing anyone under the bus for the things they had said about others. And so, yeah, so that's an example. There are a few things Mike said, again, that I could have... It's not what I want to do. It's not what I want to do now. But it's like you find those forks in the road and it's like, do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? And I made my decisions and I'll stick with them.

Did you feel at all that being the person who was taken to the end hurt you at all? Because I know that people that were in that position in these last couple of seasons like Laurel or like Ryan felt like that in a way that that really made them look weaker. in front of the jury? 110%. Yeah. I've thought a lot about this. I actually think with the fire making twist, kind of a word of caution to all future players

or people who are thinking about playing, never be the person who's taking to the end. I was actually so close to making a unique move at the end right after Nick announced that I was the one he wanted to take to final three. I was actually still in that very moment considering making this move and I just didn't

I didn't do it. I didn't take that step forward unfortunately I hesitated I for the first time I was playing conservatively at the very end but what I really wanted to do was to say thank you Nick but actually I want to go to fire so Jeff you know take that I don't know if that means that we do three people at fire

and the top two make it or if it means that Nick chooses someone else or that I choose someone else like but I was going to open that can of worms and see where the game went, but essentially, I think absolutely, yeah, like Brian and Lauren all said, like it puts you in a perceptive weak position, even if that's not the truth. Yeah. And, and yeah, it just takes away agency, and agency is so important to express at the end. And so, yeah, I don't think being taken to the end is all it's cracked out to be.

I mean, you guarantee yourself $85,000 for a third place. Yeah. But, you know, you don't go out swinging. So there's pros and cons. So I wonder if, so Nick says, okay, Jeff, I want to take Angelina to the end. Can you decline that invitation? Because, I mean, he won the challenge. He won immunity.

And so that, I mean, he does get the privilege of getting to make that pick. But if you, if you refuse the safety, yeah, that is interesting in terms of. And you can't, you can decline it because I, I'm telling you, I was so close to making this move. If I talked about all my interviews that day, like the producers hadn't told me exactly what would happen. They said that if I presented that choice to Jeff, that he would let me know what happens. So it is unprecedented. We would have to find out when it happens, for real. But I was actually practicing fire when no one was around, even though I didn't really need to because I felt really confident in my firemaking.

I was pretty much on Jeveni. I was the key firemaker. and actually props to Natalie because she's the one who taught me how to make fire at the beginning of the Giovanni days. And she did make a few fires there too, but she really taught me and then I just kept practicing. And then after Carl left at the merge, so pretty much that last, whatever that was,

for quite long, almost two weeks maybe, I was making fire almost every day, maybe sometimes twice a day even. And so I felt good about that. But yeah, unprecedented. We don't know what Jeff would have decided to do, but I'm sure that they must have. a game plan if that happens.

But I think you are allowed to decline. I would assume that that would, my best guess would be that Nick would have to choose someone else. I don't think it would automatically give me power to like bestow that on someone else. I don't think it's transferable. But I, yeah, I think that probably he would either choose someone else. But if all of us declined it, my best guess would be that all three of us would go to fire and top two would go on.

Okay. I guess hopefully survivor stays on the air long enough that we get to see somebody do that. yeah if i ever played again was in a situation i would absolutely go that path um but i would definitely recommend for future players to consider um doing it too yeah well if i ever played again angelina i would say i will gladly take the spot in the final three get that 85 okay no shame no shame because i don't think you can make the fire to save my life oh no you would be surprised you just got practice you know i guess so it's just practice muscle memory yeah you got it well i guess you have to do it one way i guess you have to do it one

wants to have the muscle memory. I'll show you some time. Next time I'm up in L.A. I'll show you. I actually took the flint on the last day. I have the flint from, from Calo. So I can bring that in a machete and we'll make some fire.

Okay. Now, you mentioned the whole thing with Allison and the Idol. Could you talk that through for us? Because it sounds like that there is a little bit of a difference in how it was perceived and what you were intending? Yeah, so I mean, so let me, yeah, so let me start there and then I'll back up and say what I would have thought would have been a better move and it was one I was considering but didn't do.

So yeah, so with Allison, my number one intention was to keep Mike safe. I was being completely loyal to Mike and Nick for better for worse, but I was being loyal to them as a final three for quite some time. Um, after the loved ones visit, I was in for a final four with those two and Davey. Um, obviously, you know, we could talk about Davy in a little bit too, but, um, things kind of shifted with Davey and I thought that he was really wanting to take care of further than me. And so I was like, man, like, well, if he doesn't want to take me, then I can't want to take him. And so anyway, as being loyal to those two, I wanted to go to the end with them because I felt like all three of us had played such different games that each of us could speak to our strengths and differentiate because, you know, in business, it's like that's the key to winning customers is differentiating and being unique against your competitors. And it's the same thing in the game.

You don't want to sit next to two people who could make similar cases or even one person who can make a similar case and maybe just articulate it better and get that vote instead. So anyhow, really was wanting to keep Mike safe. Nick already had immunity. And I knew that Allison and Kara wanted to vote for me. And that was confirmed. I think Allison has said that sense and everything. And so I know Gabby said like, oh, Angelina wasn't in trouble. And it's like, no, like I knew those two wanted me out.

I think at that point, Mike wanted to go to the end with Allison and Kara. And so had I not found the immunity idol, it would have been me again, because information was spread and they knew I had it. Of course, I didn't get any votes at tribal, but anyways, that's just a little backstory. So the reason that I wanted to, to play the fake idol is because, the reason I wanted Allison to find a fake idol is because I knew that if she knew I had it, the real thing, that Mike would be the next one on her list. I think she thought she could beat Kara. And I knew that she would take Mike out if that was her only other option. And so that's why I played it or made it is because I wanted her to

keep going after me. And, of course, I wanted to play it accurately, too. So that was the true intention. The secondary thing there is that, and you and I talked about this during our very brief conversation right after the finale, Rob. But the secondary thing is that there was a bit of an ongoing battle between Allison and I. I always acquitted it to Jay and Adam and their rivalry, because it was a rivalry that

was based off of love and respect for each other and friendship, but also, like, we're not always on the same page or the same team or seeing eye to eye. But I respected the hell out of the girl. And she was playing a great game, a game that they didn't show enough of, as she mentions in her exit interview with you. And so for me, it was like, okay, this is like an epic ending to this epic power struggle in battle that we've been having all season. We started off as really good friends.

You know, she kind of stabbed me in the back, you know, E2 Brutei, like, or whatever the Shakespeare thing is. And then I was like kind of scorned, but wanted to still work with her. And then it was like, then we were back to square one. And, you know, she was kind of going after me. I was going after her. And so for me, it was like the ending to that struggle. And I wasn't trying to be malicious.

I think it absolutely came off that way in TV and the edit and everything. And that's unfortunate. But it really was born out of a place of just wanting to respect the battle and the game that we called herself. It's so cheesy, but we call it each other like warrior princess. So we're like, oh, we're, you know, we're playing like warrior princesses. And like, it's so funny to say that now, but that's where I came from. And then on a very slight level, yeah, I was still hurt from her kind of coming at me at the merge and saying jury management and, you know, saying I was a contingency plan. And those words added up and definitely hurt, especially because I hadn't done anything to cross her.

And I really did love and and like and trust her. And so I just felt like out left out in the cold by so many. and it hurt more from Allison because she was an early person that I really trusted and went to on hard days. And so there was a little bit of a tiny bit of vengeance in it. But again, they really took that small sliver and blew it up to be the whole thing. But yeah, so that was really where it all came from.

But yeah, if I were to do it again, would not have done a fake idol. I think, again, it's going back to the snowball. It only added to this perception of angeles conniving and untrustworthy and, mean, and I didn't see myself that way at all, but in Survivor, perception is reality. So had I done it again, wouldn't have done it. And actually, the other move I was considering that I, again, looking back, wish I would

have done, was at the final six, I knew that there were, I knew that there were going to be three votes for Allison, two votes, three votes for Davy, two votes for Allison. and I was the fourth vote for Davy or I could have voted for Allison and played my idol for Davy so that we didn't have to have a split vote and a re-vote save Davy, have Allison go home, play the idol correctly,

get maybe Davy to be back on a team with me and have some loyalty and then I think Davy and Nick were smart enough to know that they couldn't go to the end together so drive a wedge through them and then be able to tell that story at the end about really kind of navigating and being creative in that way. But again, you look back on it and it's like,

Koda woulda should I don't dwell on it, but that was the alternative move that I probably, probably would have served me and my game better than to do the fake idol and all of that. Do you feel like that that's something that could have, you know, shifted the tide enough to put you over the top? I mean, I think it depends on who was at the end, right? I think if I had done that and then, you know,

we'd play that scenario out a little bit. bit so maybe then it's me davy nick kara and mike um you know the thing is like who knows who knows like you know i i i don't know it's hard to say because it's like because then what would have happened like it just would have been a completely different end game if that would have been different players maybe davy would have won immunity is like who knows like maybe davy would have been at the end and won like maybe could have still won you know if you were there with with two davids then maybe then, you know, the Goliath votes that Mike gets, the Goliath's vote for you in the end. Who knows?

Yeah. Again. And so all I know is that it would have been perceived better. I think that move would have been perceived better. But, you know, maybe that means that I would have gone out next. Again, you never, you never know. But that, again, I think just in terms of impact and the reputation factor, I think that would have served me better at that. time but again everything's clear in hindsight so you know you can't change things now so i don't

lose sleep over it but just kind of some insight into into some of the moves i was considering i think that one would have been better okay another big moment in this season you mentioned a couple times is when you talk to elizabeth at the merge about what and correct me if i'm wrong but you that you were ultimately trying to you know curry some favor there at the at the end right when she was going out is that is that correct and then sort of like as you say snowballed only slightly correct so again this is i think this is a theme it's like they show one slice one piece of my decision making and then make that the whole piece and so um the elizabeth situation is actually something i'm really excited to talk about and clear up because there's so much more than was shown

okay so with elizabeth um and i explained this in you know after she left i said me telling her was 60% me feeling bad for her and wanting someone else out. No, no, sorry, 60% me feeling bad for her, 20% me wanting the vote to be someone else and 20% jury management. That was my breakdown in terms of like, 20, 20, 20. 60%, yeah, so 60% me feeling really bad for her and not understanding why everyone wanted her out because what I saw in my day and a half, two days of knowing her, was someone who was very genuine, very loving, very kind,

and someone who I trusted immediately a lot more than some of the other people who were out there. So there was that. I also in the back of my mind had some concerns around the very quickly dwindling numbers of women. I think there was like five, what was it, five, eight at the merge, five women, eight men. And so that was part of it, 20% me wanting the ties to shift to someone else.

So my theory was, okay, if Elizabeth doesn't, maybe the Goliath will default to our other option, plan A, which was Christian, and then 20%, okay, if for some crazy reason I'm able to make it to the end, maybe she'll remember that I was someone who showed her a bit of grace before she left. So that was my breakdown in terms of why I made the decision. My miscalculation in all of that was that because I had only known Elizabeth for a day and a half, I didn't realize that she really wanted to play an honest game. And so let me explain kind of exactly what I told her when I went to her and revealed all of this to her.

I not only said, hey, it's you. I gave her what I thought was the best move to save her. And this was the part that they didn't include because, again, they wanted it to just make me look like heartless and fake and act like I was just trying to get her boat. Absolutely not the case. I said, hey, it's you. I'm so sorry. I don't understand it.

I don't want it to be you. And here is a move I think could save you. And I said, I think what you need to do, and I'm happy to help is make a fake idol before tribal council. And before, as we're kind of talking to Jeff and before the votes are cast, say, hey, I heard it's me, but I've got so much more fight left in me. And I'm not going home tonight. Take that back out all over your bag, put it around your neck, and sit there with confidence. and I thought that if she would have done that, it was early enough that maybe people wouldn't have known where all the idols were yet

and that people would have kind of scrambled and maybe pick someone else so that it wasn't a situation where you put both on someone who's going to just become immune. And that has worked. Big idols playing that way for yourself have worked for some people in the past. So I explained that to her. She immediately is like, no, no, no, I can't lie. I can't do that. Like, that's not who I am.

And I'm confused because I'm like, like, what is Survivor? Like, what do you mean? You can't do that, you know? And again, that's what makes the game so fascinating is that things that you're willing to do, other people aren't willing to do, and everyone plays by their own code.

And so that's what makes it unpredictable, and that's what makes it fascinating. And so I was like, oh, shit, like, okay, well, if she's not willing to do that, which I think is the only thing that can save her, what else can she do? And she kind of, you know, in a flurry, and the tears in her eyes walked away

and then went to go talk to Alec and to get, Gabby and obviously slowly or quickly the information traveled that she found out it was her and I was the only one who was not at camp at that time. So it was pretty easy to deduct that I was the one who told her. But yeah, so that's essentially what happened. And again, I think if she hadn't done the move and had been willing to do the move that I recommended, I think it could have saved her. But in retrospect, I think the small tweak I would have made is that if I would have really thought that she was playing a loyal game and known that she wanted to play a loyal and honest game

I would have made a fake idol myself pretended it was real before the votes were cast handed it to Elizabeth and said you're not going home and hoped that the tides would shift to someone else hopefully not me also a risky move but would have been okay

within Elizabeth's criteria of the game she wanted to play within my criteria of the game I wanted to play and who knows what would have happened But either that or just not done anything at all. But yeah, so that was kind of my thought process and what I would have changed if I could do it all over again. And it's at that same time, it's when that you have the idea that you should go up to Christian. Christian is the biggest target at the merge.

And then that's the plan. And then ultimately the plan changes. And then ultimately the group is going to come back around and say, oh, you know, maybe we should get rid of Christian. Let me bring in a question here. This is from Purple Rock, John. another podcaster out there doing some good work that he says in hindsight did the Goliaths recognize

that your plan to take out Christian was correct would that have been the better move knowing everything you know now should you guys have taken Christian out first I mean I definitely think so and I think from conversations post game I think a lot of people are like well damn

yeah you're right it took what 18 votes to get Christian out and how many tribals and how many idols and yeah, I think it's clear as day that I was right. That being said, you know, unfortunately things happened as they did. One thing I want to note, though, about how that decision came about

was, again, very different than depicted. So what happened was we all get back. Four of us get together. It was me, Natalia, or no, sorry, me, Kara, Allison, and Dan. The four of us, we didn't grab everyone because we didn't want this perception of like, oh, all the Goliaths are getting together

and, you know, Baywatch modeling on the beach or whatever Gabby said. And so the four of us kind of put our heads together just, and we were talking for about 30 minutes in the water. And I propose like, hey, what if we all just throw out where our heads are, what our thoughts are, and we just start the conversation there, very collaborative. It's very similar to like design thinking

where at first anything goes. And then you start to do the pros and cons after all the ideas are up. there and so we did that and and then the larger group got together and at that point the four of us had landed pretty confidently on Christian and then the larger group we start to do the same I propose the same thing like hey let's throw ideas out there blah blah blah like it's very collaborative it's very nerdy and like business schoolie of me to suggest that but um it is proven to show like that kind of process is how you get to the best um solution for things and so we did

go around a bit and people throughout what they were thinking and a lot of people were just saying Elizabeth, it's going, it's easy. It felt very similar to kind of the mindset that was happening at the first book for the Glyas with Natalie where it's like, oh, well, it's on people's lips, so why not, you know, it's not me. It's a very standard mentality where it's like anyone but me. But again, my mindset was like, I was like, okay, I understand that. Like, I'm cool with that, but let me just propose another way of thinking. Like, if Christian is the biggest threat, this might be the only time that we have an opportunity to truly blindside the David's because they think that there's just this strong momentum for Elizabeth and there is

the strong momentum for Elizabeth. And so I said, I, this is what I said. I think that if we don't get Christian out now, it's going to take a hell of a lot of time and energy to get him out. And we may never get him out and he'll win this game. I said, I think, I think one of them has an idol. I feel like it's Davey because he's the most like kind of, you know, um, adventurous and Davey Crockett, you know? And I was like, I feel like Davey would have an idol. I think Carl has an advantage from going on Exile Island. And I think that the more time that goes on, the more information they gather is going to be harder for us to put it, you know, to throw one of their key players out.

And that was my pitch. And that was just based off of intuition on people I met, all of these things, a little bit of information that I gathered, but none of it, I mean, a lot of it was just me guessing and feeling things out. And obviously, all of that was accurate. Um, but I think, I think, I think it was hard for certain people to feel like they were being told what to do twice by me. Um, and, you know, you could analyze that till the cows come home, but it's like, you do have to kind of wonder, like, why is it that some of these, uh, very dominant men weren't comfortable listening to their female counterpart who was just trying to do

the best for our team. Like honestly, I was just trying to keep us safe and give us a better shot of moving forward in the game. And my mindset was, I know I'm not very good at challenges, I'm decent around camp, I try my best, but like I felt like from a strategy perspective, this is where I could help my team a lot. And so it was frustrating for me when it felt like people didn't want to listen to. to that because I did feel really

strongly about what I was proposing and again right in retrospect but yeah but unfortunately folks didn't listen and I think had they it probably wouldn't have been Dan and John next and Alex it's like the fall of the brocatchez

yeah well that's the irony is that you end up you know your game kind of craters but then you are able to rise from the ashes and make it to the final three all those people that didn't listen to you end up being out of the game. So I guess in some way it ends up working out, you know, as well for you probably that if you would have taken him out, I guess, but just to do the thought experiment, if you guys

do take out Christian at that point and he ends up being the person that when they do ultimately try to take him out, it ends up blowing up, you know, spectacularly and John ends up going out of the game. How would the rest of the game play out? Have you thought about that? I have But again It's just like you're saying like

Oh but could you have one at the end If you had you know Played your idol for Davy It's just it's so hard to tell It's so hard to tell I do think that there would have been A better shot for some of those big Goliath guys to get further than they did

Had we done that Maybe there would have been a little bit more Goliath loyalty But all of us knew That at some point there's going to be, you know, different alliances and different relationships. And I do think that

we still would have seen a game where it was like voting blocks and it was blocked. It was vote to vote in terms of where you went and who you went for. But I think, I think from my game perspective, which I can speak to, is that I think that I just would have

had a lot more social capital and a lot more agency for the first part, first half of the merge than I did, because essentially what I end up having to do for the first half of the merge as you saw was rebuild and take a step back and be a little bit more quiet

and be a little bit more agreeable and that's the reason I was able to make that pivot and like you said, rise from the ashes was because I was adaptable to the game and changed my style on a dime recognizing that no one wanted to work with me and people didn't trust me so it's like how can I rebuild trust

okay I need to be honest I need to be out front I remember Carl came to me at the vote where they were going to do the big, you know, the big huge play with all the, with his nullifier and everything. And it was just us kind of by the fire during the day. And he's like, hey, you want to ride with us? I think it's what he said. Like, it's such a Carl thing.

And I looked at him and I said, Carl, I want to play with you so bad. But I'm in a weak position right now. I need to stick to my word. I got to go the safe route, which is to still go with the Goliaths tonight. But when the time comes, I would love nothing more than to play with you. and the David's. And so I kind of planted that seed, but at the same time I was honest with him,

hold him I was sticking with the Golias, which was true. And that went a huge way for Carl in recognizing that like, hey, Angelina's not as untrustworthy as people are saying she is. You know, she's telling me where she's going. She's being upfront.

She's being honest. And I think that is valued a lot by a lot of people in the game. So that was what was able to help me rebuild. But again, who knows what would have happened if we would have gotten Christian out earlier. I think it just would have been completely different game.

Okay, let's jump around to another one of your big moments in the season and I want to talk about the rice negotiation which ended up being, you know, a controversial point in the season and

there was a lot of talk about how you handled the rice negotiation. There was a lot of talk about then how many times it came up after the fact So first off, how are you feeling now about the rice negotiation looking back? So, I mean, I'll say after that, and again, I hope it's clear that, like, I'm owning the things that I could have done better. And, like, I think the thing I could have done better in that situation was not talk about it after it happened, right?

And I do think that I wanted to kind of play that up and make it contentious. But I also think it reflected that people were tired of hearing about it. So I think the thing I could have improved there was to just shut my mouth, like, do it. move on and then only mention it if I made it to the end, right? Like, shouldn't I mention it to Davey when I was trying to get him to take me on reward? But actually, the reason I used that as an excuse when Davey was picking people for the reward was after the loved one's visit, I kind of told Davey, I said, we shouldn't let people know that like we're working together.

Like, we should keep it kind of on the download because you and Nick are so close. Like, we don't want people to feel like there's too much of a bond. And so the reason that I said it to him on the mat was because I wanted to give him an excuse to choose me if he wanted to have that time alone with me and Nick and not have. And then for him to be able to come back and be like, well, I just chose her because I felt bad. And she did get the rights. Like I was trying to give him cover. I wasn't trying to blow up the fact that like I was final four with him. And so that's the reason I brought it up.

Then again, it reads as, okay, stop talking about it, which again, I totally agree with that perspective. but that's why I mentioned this to Davey on the mat was to just give him cover. Because he said in his interview with me that he said that he felt that the reason why he didn't take you on the reward was that he got frustrated that you brought that up again.

Yeah, yeah, I heard that. And I understand that I get where he's coming from. But again, the reason I said it was just because I wanted to give him an excuse to take me so that we could strategize without people thinking because if I had said, hey, we have such this great relationship and hey, wink, wink, we're going to the end.

And like, I didn't want to blow that up because that's valuable information to others because then me, him and Nick would have become even bigger targets and my two. And so that's why I said it. But again, he knows that now, I think. But in the moment, it just, you know, rubbed him the wrong way, which is, which is fine and unfortunate. But so that was the thing with Dave, but yeah, had I done the right stuff again, would have just done the move and then not said a word until the end. but in terms of the actual negotiation and the preparation for it and everything like that like I was I was disappointed in the way it was portrayed on TV because in real life it was pretty unprecedented that it went so smoothly usually if people for people who watch

a lot of Survivor it's like people get shit on for asking Jeff for anything like people have been ridiculed completely shut down and and with good reason like The thing is Jeff holds all the power. Like Jeff, like, his life doesn't change if we get rice or not, or if someone gets their fishing pole or fishing gear or not, or whatever it is, their flint, you know, when they lost their flint twice in like San Juan. It's like, he doesn't care because at the end of the day,

he's going back and he has everything he needs. So you're the only one with skin of the game, so the power dynamic is already off. And so I kind of went in knowing all that. And that's the reason I gave him such a large offer with a high quantity at the beginning. But as he knew, all the stuff I offered at the beginning was really, we weren't even using it or we really, really did not need it. And so it was high quantity, low quality offer to start. And the reason that when he said, well, that's a low ball offer.

And the reason I acknowledge that is because Jeff's a smart guy. And again, he has no skin in the game. He doesn't care if we get it or not. I didn't want to insult his intelligence, right? Like, I'm going to be like, yeah, you're right. It is. But that's what you do, as you know, because you're a great negotiator too. And again, yeah, in real life, you don't do that.

You don't say, oh, yeah, I know it's low because there's power on both sides and there's something that's wanted and needed on both sides in real life. But, again, not in Survivor. No, my job. So, again, all of that is to say that I was really proud of that moment, and I think that's why it kept coming back up again and again is just because, well, sometimes other people would bring it up and respond, and then it was edited to show, like, oh, she's just talking about it.

But anyway, it was a unique situation. Jeff has said in interviews since that like no one should expect to get that deal in the future. Like it was a it was a it was a it was a good deal and that more will be taken in the future and that we came out on top. Yeah. Well, I definitely agree. And you know, it certainly, you know, gave us a lot to talk about on podcast. But I think when you look at it, I mean, what did you give up that you, you sat out of an immunity challenge? And I know that you talked about that you felt like that that was a challenge that you could have won. but I mean people sit out of challenges all the time and you were able to get rice for for the group to eat whereas in the past people have had to give up much more so I do think

that in terms of the deal that was made I think that you got a very favorable deal and I think that Jeff is going to balk at whatever you throw out there first so I so I agree that the low ball offer is certainly the way to go you know you could come out with like a okay we'll give you this we'll give you this you know we'll give you everything like no no no here's here's my terms okay we're not doing it your way and so like he'll reject whatever you throw out first and then you know and and and then his counter offer was very favorable it was very reasonable and like he said all we had to give up was me sitting out we kept all of our material goods and and I felt really comfortable with the relationships I had at that point so I didn't feel I would

be a target for that vote. So it felt like a good calculated decision. Yeah. So we'll see what happens in the future. But again, I think for super fans, they recognize, for super fans and for past players, we recognize like this was a good deal.

But again, all I would have changed was to not talk about it again until the end. And other than that, I think it was a good moment for my game. Okay. Gregory McBean has a question. Besides negotiating for Rice, did your negotiation class that you took in college help you anywhere else in Survivor?

Oh, that's a good question. I think just in general, the class teaches you that it's important to recognize what other, what the other party wants. And so as you're thinking about who to vote for, what name to throw out there, what could be digestible to certain people at what time, just knowing in the back of my mind, like, okay, what is there, what is there, um, what is there, um, It's like the zone of the zone of like agreement for both people. And you have to kind of layer that on with the different people that you're working with.

And so that is a concept that I definitely brought into thinking about votes and who and when. But yeah, I think obviously the rice was the most obvious of the situations for it all. All right. Let's then talk about another big moment. and let's talk about where you ultimately did find the immunity idol in the finale where you got the clue you talked about the idol in the very first episode about how women have found what is it 17% of the hidden immunity idols and then here you were to be able to affect that number although how many idols were in this season i'm not sure i lost count

I'm not sure if the percentage went up or down based on you finding the idol. You might have found 17% of the idols on the season. Yeah, I don't know how many were out there, but yeah, it was an exciting moment to... Yeah, I don't know if we really moved the needle this season. No, I think it's about... I think we're probably a wash in terms of where we ended up overall. Like one out of five or one out of six, something in that range. Yeah, it's still pretty low, but, you know, hopefully with this next season coming on with Kelly,

who's an amazing idol finder and Aubrey and hopefully next season the tights start to change and I think for subsequent seasons like now this is on the conscious of not only the fans but the people who are going to be playing and so I hope that by having the stat out there that it really does kind of light a fire under female players to be like we got to find these idols like come on

they're extremely powerful get out there and it's not a lack of searching and I've talked about this quite a bit I know Gabby's talked about it others I've talked about it is not for lack of searching necessarily, but there are definitely certain times in the game where the perception of the search can hurt us more than it would for men or there's just a little bit more permissibility for men to be out and about than us. And so I think as much as we can start to shift that larger perception of our game

where it's like more acceptable to be aggressive, to be going out there and just going balls to the wall or choose body part that is gender inclusive to the wall, the better. And so, yeah, that's kind of my mindset where it's like, I'm just glad that it got airtime, you know, multiple things about the part that I did really enjoy about my edit is that it did show that I'm a feminist, that I'm a fighter, that I am hoping to even off the playing field,

not only in Survivor, but also in the real world. And so I think just by raising awareness where we can start to change it. Because in like Australia, a survivor, it's not that. way. So, you know, I think, I think hopefully the ties are changing. So do you, so I want to make sure that, you know, I get this, you know, straight when we're talking about this. So are you saying that you feel like that it's more incumbent that the women players should be more ambitious in terms of getting out there and searching? Or do you feel like that the way the show is hiding the idols should change or is it some combination of the two?

I don't know, I don't think I'm saying that we need to be more ambitious. I think a lot of the women that go out there are extreme. And maybe ambition's the wrong word, but maybe don't be as apprehensive about, you know, oh, what will people say if I go out there? Yeah, I think that's a part of it. I don't think the show needs to change anything about where they're being hidden. Because that's really interesting because I feel like that most of the debate about this has centered around how the show is hiding the idols in terms.

of that women have roles around the camp that are more sort of like social and taking care of the food and that sort of limits their ability to get out there in search whereas some of the men who have jobs like oh I'm going to go out and look for the firewood then have more freedom to go find those idols yeah so I actually I think it's even deeper than that like I think it needs to be that it's more permissible on a foundational level for for the women to be taking on the more masculine roles around camp and and vice versa and just having more fluidity in terms of the breakdown of expectations and roles in the game. Because I think it doesn't matter where they are if that's the case, right?

It's like, and the other thing is like the game shouldn't change on that level. I think if anything, the game should change the, I think the producers have a lot of room to grow in terms of how they depict women in the show. I think that's one issue. and we can kind of did back to that. But I think what happens is that there is a penalty

to women who play aggressively, both in the edit, and the perception, both from the audience and from the other players. So I think if we can evolve to a place where people will be more accepting

of different types of gameplay, aggressive gameplay, whatever, you know, whatever that is, traditionally more masculine gameplay being aggressive, if we can just be like, cool you know yeah so-and-so searching like that is what it is like but i think that we just need to get to a place where again both the players and the audience are more comfortable with

different depictions of people playing different games even if that doesn't match up with traditional gender expectations that's where we need to evolve for so that that's again it's more foundational than just where are the idols i think it's like yeah it's more about who can be in what roles and how are we perceiving and i know this is getting like kind of into intellectual but um it's the first for this show Angelina I just it's cultural you know it is cultural and I think we're at a really unique moment in time where you know women have had the right to vote for about 100 years we've had the right to have our own credit cards for about 50 like we've been able to go to business school for the last like 30 or 40 it's like we you know we hold

5% of CEO positions for the fortune 500 um And so it's like we still have a lot of room to grow in terms of getting women to parity. Like we hold 20% of elected offices. Like it's still the disparity is still huge. And again, this is just the idols and survivor are just one super small and consequential sliver of the journey of women in society right now, American society particularly. I'm not speaking to the world because that's a whole other thing. But we just have so much of our room for progress and growth. And again, I think really what it comes down to is a cultural, foundational level about what are we teaching our girls?

What are we teaching our boys? What are we showing to be permissible? What double standards are we perpetuating in society? Like, it's so much bigger than idols. And that's why I think this dialogue is so important is because it does illuminate the broader cultural standing of women. And like I said, there's still a lot of room to grow. I'm so hopeful about it. But yeah, still a lot of change that needs to happen. Yeah, and I think that this is such an interesting topic because I think that, you know, you were talking about like really big stuff, but in the actual Survivor game, it's really micro stuff where that how much should players be thinking about society when their actions, if they do the wrong, you know, one misstep might make them the next person voted out of the game. I mean, should a player in that position, it's like, I think that, you know, you really have to balance things out. Like, yes, millions of people are going to see what happens here on this island. But in the short term and in the long term for me personally, it may be better for me to not rock the boat. Yeah.

And I think you said this on one of your shows, one of your conversations where it's like, it's, It's better play sometimes for your own game to play the conservative move and not rock the boat, but it's not good TV. So I think that's definitely rings true. But I think in the game, you have to just think about the game and make the best move for you at that moment. But that being said, it's like, especially, I think for people who may be play more than once, it's like you do start to think about the broader context.

And for me, the broader context, is way more important than the game. And so, yeah, that's definitely something that's on the top of my mind, but I think it just depends on the person and what their rubric is for winning. And for me, it's bigger than just that moment, yeah. Were there times when you were out there

when you were thinking about the broader context in terms of this being a show that's viewed by millions of people? I tried not to slip into that too much because I just wanted to stay in the moment. I think being present is essentially, to the game and I think if you get two in the clouds then it can be detrimental because it can be

I don't want to say paralyzing but it can it can kind of hinder you and it could cause you to fall into into airing on the side of caution and sometimes it is good to err on the side of caution sometimes not so I think for me my goal was to go out there to be myself, to play a hard game, to play a tough game, to play a social game. I did all of those things. I think the social aspects did not make it through to the edit because, you know, again,

the edit's goal is to make a highly entertaining controversial season. And so this whole like polarizing word that keeps coming up in terms of my character, it makes sense because that's what the edit supported. They wanted to maximize me being polarizing because it makes you as an audience member more passionate to root for certain people when you have someone to root against. And I think the moment that Natalie left the game,

she was the number one kind of villain at that time. But then when she was gone, it's like, well, who's our new villain? And I think it became me after that. But while I was out there, I certainly didn't feel like a villain. I don't think I was acting like a villain. If you actually watch back, like, again,

I didn't count this, but someone commented that like I got the most confessions of the entire season more than Nick even, more than Christian. And if you watch all my confessionals, there's never one time when I'm saying something really nasty

or personal about anyone. And so like I'm not a villain in that way. And for the most part, I actually was very loyal, especially for the latter half of the merge and like, so I'm not a villain in that way. But they made me a villain through showing kind of secondary commentary from Mike and from a few others.

and by really editing things to make it like kind of maximize my annoyance or my make it look like I'm not aware and those sorts of things. And I think that the way that I think about it is like they showed like a 5% sliver of me and just kind of blew that up to almost 100%. And in real life, it's like, yes, I do have a little bit of that 5%, but I'm also like much more well-rounded and a more complex person than that. but I think that happens to everyone on reality TV is that you definitely become kind of one or two toned at best and that's again what makes it interesting but it kind of means that it's kind of a basic representation of what you are too. Yeah and look and it's a double-edged sword also

where you know I talked with Allison and you know she was you know very saddened by the fact that they didn't show her as much and she felt like that she had this whole adventure and this whole journey and she felt like so much of it was on the cutting room floor. So yeah, there's, you know, every, you know, every, you know, problem is a problem that somebody else wishes they have. Totally. And actually it's on the, on our group chat, before the season aired, someone just threw up

a hypothetical question, like, would you rather have a purple edit or a negative edit? And a lot of people were like, oh, like I'd rather have a negative edit because at least my story is being told. And it's like, drops is always greener, right? It's like you've got one side, like you said, Allison, who was under-edited, unfortunately, even though she played a great game. And then you've got me who was edited in a very negative way. And I felt like that didn't really capture who I am and the game I played.

And so damned if you do, damn if you don't. But I think what it comes down to, and I'll call it out there because obviously I'm someone who wants to always speak my mind is that, you know, you look at, okay, I'll say this. I love the producers that I worked with out there. I have a lot of respect for them. but you look at who's editing the show and it's like nine out of ten white guys and I just feel like they have a lot of room for growth

for the way they depict women both from you know the from all sides not just aggressive playing women but you know socially cunning women and I think that they do lean on really outdated stereotypes a lot and kind of pander to what they think their audience wants to see instead of challenging that and making depictions that are a little bit more complicated and interesting.

Because if you look at it, like, they don't do that a lot with the guys. Like, you look at Christian, you look at kind of the people they make their heroes and their fan favorites from most seasons. And usually it's a guy who probably they can relate to really well. And so I just think that they would be better served to have more voices in the editing room and in the production room than they currently have. because it's in media, as Davey said, representation matters. And I think in the process that leads to what story is told and whose identities are shown in all aspects,

I think a lot of it's lost in translation because of their lack of diversity right now. Okay. I have a bunch of questions for you about some of these different things that we're talking about. Let me bring in a question. This is from Blake Finch, who says, how did you feel about the edit of your idol hunt while I found you carrying the ladder through the jungle funny and amazing and epic

I can see how you'd be frustrated with the portrayal did you have any issue with how they presented you your idol hunt well I'll first say that like it was really funny the way that all of that was portrayed like all the way from like Mike searching for the clue with his wine like I was laughing when I was watching it back but yeah definitely let me kind of like fact check

can add a little bit of commentary to it all. So first of all, one of the things I had the biggest issue with was the way the clue was written that I found. The clue said that, and even though I lost it, I still remembered the key part that it said kind of the safety that you seek can be found atop the rock behind the well. And atop the rock, I understand. So let me say that I recognize that like they're not going to give us the keys to the castle and hand feed us, you know, exactly where something is.

But saying a top is extremely misleading. And the reason that I think that they agree with it being misleading is because in the edit back, when they have me telling Mike and Nick at the table at the reward table, they actually edited my words to say that it's inside the rock. I never said it was inside the rock because the clue didn't say that. And I knew it said at a top. So that was some editing magic there.

And I think that they recognize like a top is very, very misleading and actually inaccurate. So there was a reason I went to the top of the rock is because it said a top. It didn't had it said a long or a top ladder or is something that's a little bit more where it was. I actually think I could have found it on my own. I'm pretty confident I could have found it on my own because I created enough time for myself to be alone at the well by telling Allison and Davy separately that the other, I told

Allison that Dave had found a clue about something about the tree tops near like the the opposite side of the island and I told David Allison found it and it said tree tops and the opposite side of the island. So I kind of got them both out of the area for quite some time and created that

opportunity. But again, even though I lost the clue for a little bit, I knew it set a top and that's why I went to the very top of the waterfall. And there was the main producer who was out of camera at that moment was there for the entire thing. And he was standing at the bottom.

As I climbed up and scaled this waterfall um as the cameraman followed me up and um essentially what happened was because all you know the cameraman the sound guy and me all kind of hoisted ourselves up along this this waterfall and in the process ripped out the weeds I was using weeds to like pull myself up between tree branches and rocks and like it was really slippery and steep and when they came up behind me it shredded all of that so there was no way to get back down and the reason that I was very disoriented and scared when I did run into Allison and Davy shortly and Nick shortly after that climb

was because they actually, I was stuck up there. Like there was no way for me to get down. Literally, like they literally had to get like, I don't know the term for it, but like in rock climbing, you know those ropes that you used to like propel yourself up and down. Yeah. They had to get one of those attached to a tree stump that was, you know, the top of the waterfall.

and we had to use that to, like, propel ourselves down. Yeah. Seriously, like, the cameraman, myself, all of us had to do that. And this whole time, like, anyone could have come and just seen this whole spectacle. But luckily, like, I bought myself enough time that I didn't get caught in the moment. But it was really scary because, and again, I know that I can exaggerate or like, whatever, but I wasn't exaggerating when I said, if I would have fallen, I would have been in peril. Like, at minimum, I would have, like, been paralyzed or something because it was.

was very high, very steep, and very rocky at the bottom. And so it was scary. It was a scary moment where I kind of, once my adrenaline kind of stopped and I was up there stuck, I was like, this isn't worth it. Like I've done, I've gone too far where I'm putting myself in harm's way. And if something happened to me, like that would just be the worst thing. Like I couldn't do that to my family. You know, like I'm so much more life I want to live and so many things I want to do and

I haven't had kids yet and I just got married. And like, so it was just one of those scary moments where I was like, okay, I need to take a step back and take a breather. and re-evaluate what I'm doing with finding this idol. And that was really why I leaned on Nick and Mike is because I was so shaken up and I was like, I kind of had a mental block because I was like, I went to the top of the rock.

I said it's the top of the rock. It's not there. And that's why I was like, I need you guys because I'm not going to have another alone moment over here. And I just was so shaken up by the whole thing that I needed them to help me out. And that's why it ended up happening as it did. But again, the frustrating part for me was less about,

how it's depicted back and more about the clue was just written really poorly because again, I think it could have gotten very differently had it been a little bit more accurate. Okay. I want to go back to the family visit. Now, is this correct that your husband was supposed to come and be your loved one?

But then he got deployed while you were out in Fiji. Is that right? So he wasn't deployed yet. He was at a six-week training before deployment. So anyone who's gone through the deployment cycle knows that there's a workup period where they're out for a lot of time doing exercises to prepare for the deployment. And so he was at a six-week training right before the deployment. And unfortunately, it was not able to leave for, I think it was like four or five days would have been the time. And in the military, really, where it's like military come like, Marine Corps comes first, right?

And, like, I respect that and, like, get that. But in the moment, like, of course, it was really, really hard enough to see him come out. And I didn't know until that minute when that second when Jeff said, it was your mom. And that's when I was like, okay. But my mindset was like, I was just grateful to see anyone, any of my family could have come out. I would have been super happy. But I really wanted it to be my husband and kind of needed it to be him.

And that's just kind of what you have to. do as a military spouse is be flexible and know that they're working for a bigger cause and sometimes that comes at sacrifice. And so yeah, it was it was hard not to see him. But again, I get it and I'm so proud of him. I'm constantly proud of like his devotion and his service, but it's moments like that where it kind of like it hits you in the stomach and you're like, dang, like you need your person and they can't be there. And they'll little bit alone and when you already feel alone on this island with these people who you can't trust it's like it kind of adds to that feeling so it definitely was um hard at the moment but i actually

it was kind of harder probably later than it was in the moment because i think i was just so in like self-preservation mode that i was really grateful to see my mom and she was amazing like she was such a great support and um so loving and did re-energize me but again like when you're when you're kind of hoping for your spouse, your loved one. And then they're not there. It's like, oh, God. Yeah.

And then they haven't been there for many other moments. It's just like, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah, I'm sure it's incredibly difficult. Was he back for when the show aired? He got to watch the first two or three episodes of me and then he didn't play. So most of the season, he was gone.

And then for the finale, he was gone too. So, you know, he was extremely supportive from abroad. and had a bit of Wi-Fi during the season. So that was great. So we're able to, like, connect a bit. But, yeah, so he was, he was gone for most of it. Yeah. Was that nice for him to be able to while he was away to be able to connect with you

over watching the show? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, had he not even been able to, because this is his, this is our second deployment. And the first one, he had. had very little connectivity.

Like I would get an email probably like once every month if I was lucky once every two months. So and that, you know, it really obviously depends on what their mission is

and where they are in the world and all of that. But so for the beginning of this one, unfortunately he did have a little bit more connectivity and that went a really long way because he was able to support me and be there from me from afar.

So that was a huge blessing. But yeah, it's just of course it would have been awesome to help him here during it, especially given lot of the heat and slack that I got from people, but he did a really, really good job of supporting me from afar. Okay, on a much lighter note, Benel's wants to know, what was it like being a vegetarian

slash vegan on the island? Can you give some insight on how your perspective on it changed or some things that you had to adjust in your diet on the island? Yeah, so, oh, I will say, yeah, it's definitely a lot easier to be a vegetarian when you're in civilization and you have access to an abundance of food. I actually ended up, they didn't show this, but I ended up eating meat emerge. Does that do a number on you to go from not eating meat and then to eating meat in a situation where now you've been very deprived of food?

Yeah, well, so, I mean, so here was my mindset. I was like, I was just listening to my body and my body was like, you need protein. Anything I had been like 18 days and all I had had was those two eggs that we won. And so I just was really listening to my body. It's eating protein. And, of course, the only form of protein that they had at the merge piece was salami and ham, I think. And so I actually made a personal decision before even going into the merge beast, you know, kind of once we got the merge letter, we knew we were headed to it.

I internally just decided, like, I gave myself permission to eat the salami or whatever would be. I didn't know what it was going to be. But I was like, yeah, I knew I was going to do it because I needed it. And, yeah, when your body, like you said, when your body is in that state of servation, a number on you and and so I just listened to it and I said no the game is unique from real life in real life I will get back on that train eventually but right now this is what I need and I did it and luckily because I grew up on me I've only been a vegetarian for the last eight years now I think my body like I didn't have any negative reactions to it like I was able to process it just

fine and all of that and it felt really good to get protein in me but um emotionally I I did feel guilty because I like part of me being a vegetarian is I love animals that's the primary reason the secondary is like the impact on the environment that meat production and transportation has and so it definitely went against what I believe to be right and true for me but again you have to make some concessions in the game and that was definitely one of them for me okay uh speaking of loving the animals uh shireen on Twitter she wanted to know tell us about your hang out with Sia. Now, we saw some pictures.

I think it was maybe on Instagram towards the end of the season where you were spotted with Survivor Superfan. Sia. Yes, she is phenomenal. So it was Shereen. Love you, Shireen.

Got to meet her at Run It Up Reno. And can't wait to hang out again soon. But, yeah, Sia was at a watch party at my boy's house. and I got to meet her. It was actually really fun because after we watched the episode, there was like this girl gang there, you know, a lot of them were daughters of Mike's best friends from growing up.

And they were just like such an awesome pack of like girls. And they wanted to hang out with me and I wanted to hang out with them. So we were kind of just running around the party, hanging out, talking to people. And they really wanted to talk to see us. So all of us went to her and just it was like this girl power. our gang. It was so fun. And the girls asked for a photo. So we all took a photo. And, yeah, it was just so lovely, so gracious. And the girls were super stoked, too. So it was, it was a cool experience. And it was crazy how this game just like opens up opportunities like that that you

would never think you would have. Yeah. Did you ask see if she was going to be at the finale? I didn't. No, I didn't ask her that. Okay. Because sometimes she comes to the finale and she has like a present for somebody. Yeah, I think she did that with Donathan, which is so cool because A couple of times. Yeah, she did a few times which is awesome. Yeah, I didn't ask her if she was going to be there and I know she didn't do it for anyone this season.

But yeah, I think it's so cool that she does that occasionally and I just shout out to Jonathan. He's one of my. I freaking love him and was so happy that she gave him some money because it takes a lot of courage to come on to TV and be yourself in that way, especially when you grow up. in a place that may not support you being full of yourself. So shout out to Sia and Jonathan, who are just awesome people. Now, can I ask you if I may be so bold about what it was like meeting another survivor fan,

Angelina Jolie? Yes. Just another amazing woman. So I met her also at, or met her the first time at Mike's watch party. She and Mike are friends, I believe. I really screwed things up by pissing off Mike White, didn't I? I don't think you pissed. I think he was just playing with you because I listened to it.

I think he was just, Mike does this thing where he knows he's being funny and he kind of likes to go on a riff. I don't think you actually pissed on. I think he's just being Mike. That's my person. I know him pretty well, and that's the way that I read it was that. That's what I like to tell myself. You should.

I really, I think you're fun. Like Mike really He doesn't hold grudges He's a very late back guy So I think he just wanted to have some fun with you And show how funny he is Which I found it all to be very funny Very funny

But yeah so Angelina Jolie and him are good friends And she was at his watch party I think he watched a lot of the episodes with her And then after the finale She had a few of us over as well Which was really really nice of her I'm so generous And she's like she's so down to earth

Like you would be like around her you would never feel like there's this mega superstar in front of you like she's just super down to earth super genuine and yeah great person so when i saw her i just thanked her for how she uses her platform um to affect change because i think that it's really impressive and inspirational and there was no tension between you and she over who is the number one angelina No, no, I only joke with Mike And I tried to I did ask him

I said who's your number one And he kind of dodged the question I think that's a bad bad omen for me But I'll take number two to her any day Okay This is a question from Christo on Twitter Did you know that Dan was going to play The Idol for you during that John vote

Yes So this goes to what I was saying earlier around it's valuable information to know the parameters that people are playing and what their goals are in the game and for Dan it was to play a loyal game that he could be proud of that he could show his girls to later on and so

I knew that there was tension with me and Dan it was no secret to anyone including each of us and so and I also knew he had an idol I did not know he had two and so my conversation with him on the raft where I'm kind of saying like oh I'm nervous I feel like it's going to be me. I was slightly nervous, but not really.

My goal there was to get him to give me his word, that he would play it for me if my name came up. Or if an idol was played for Christian, namely. And he said, I got you, girl. Like, yeah, I'll go to back for you. So essentially, I got his word. And again, that was an intentional move on my part because I knew that his word was everything to him.

And I knew that even though we had kind of been battling out a little bit and I maybe wasn't his favorite person, I knew that he was going to stick to his word and be a man of honor and play it for me like he did. So I knew that once the idol was played for Christian, that Anne would play it for me. Of course, I was a little nervous that it took him a couple of seconds to make that decision. But I put the pressure on a little bit by staring at him. And so I was really, really. Yeah.

I was really happy he did it and it did me a lot and Dan and I despite us kind of going after each other in the game and having a few flimps are totally cool in real life and we talk quite a bit so he's an awesome guy

has been super supportive and he gets like you know the deployment stuff because he is in law enforcement it's a very similar field to military and so he's just been such a great support in checking it on me and being a good friend through it all yeah I do think it would have been really interesting that you know had you guys been able to get christian out of the game and sort of like get

the jump on the david's you know how that would have played out because at least as the show was presenting it it seemed like that there was tension and seemingly both ways because i feel like that there were moments when you were talking about how you wanted to see dan go out of the game and that he wanted to have you go out of the game but it seemed like that in the in the landscape of the goliath so it seemed like that you guys were both you know mutually connected with john against maybe the side that was with alec and alison and maybe kara and that to see that the goliots break in half i feel like that that would have been interesting to see that play out yeah yeah i agree and yeah for as much as we i mean the rivalry was real like that definitely it was not over um

it was it was yeah it was not overblown it was definitely present but it was it was almost like a family feud so to say where it's like right we need we need know we're in the same family. We may be like not on the same page right now, but we definitely still felt like we had kind of mutual fates. And so I wasn't ready to turn on him necessarily. But yeah, we were definitely, yeah, just definitely feeling the tension of one another.

And the game adds that pressure for sure. The thing I will say, the comment that he said, and he prepared me that it was coming, but the comment that bothered me the most from him was the one around me not not I shouldn't be using military terms because I'm not in the military like my husband is and that kind of thing and I have a lot of my good friends especially now that I'm living on base and everything a lot of my closest best friends right now are other military spouses and they're like they're like oh that pissed me off so bad because

don't silence us like yeah we we recognize we're not the ones who are putting our lives on the line but like for the most part our husbands you know most of it is the husband who's serving it's like our husbands are out there and they are our life so it's like of course we're invested of course we listen to them every day when they come home from work we learn a lot through them and especially me because i'm just so curious about everything that like i want my husband to teach me everything about his job and this life because it's new to me like i've never had i don't know anyone in my family who served before so it's really it's kind of new to both of us his grandfather served but again pretty new to him too and so um yeah that's just all to say that it's

like as spouses it's like we we do have a platform and we do have a place and yeah the only thing that piss me up was like he said to that we shouldn't have a place to talk about that but um you know I was never I was never trying to to say that I was the one who's sacrificing like the only reason I ever brought up being a military spouse on the show is because I think for me it's such a source of strength and for the women that I know again mostly women there are argument I don't I don't know many men who are military spouses but most of my friends are women like they are some of the strongest people I know, like they give birth without their husbands here. You know, we get through car accidents, death, like day-to-day stuff.

And your husband is on the other side of the planet and you can't talk to him. And we get through it together. And so I wanted to bring that up occasionally because for me and my journey, like, that has been such a source of strength and building my own strength and facing adversity that I was proud of that. And that's the only reason that I ever brought that aspect up of my identity. So that's just something I wanted to say about that. But I do love Dan. So we're all good. Do you hear from a lot of military spouses as the showing on?

I did. Yeah. A ton. And other, like, I mean, other military members, too, who were just like, yeah, who related a lot to things I was saying or who thanked me for my husband's service. And it's like, no, like, thank you. And, yeah. but from a lot of spouses who felt like excited to see part of who they are on screen

because of, yeah, like I was saying, a lot of what we go through is transferable to the game where, A, you're not in contact with your family, you've got to be really just tough and get through hard times, and you do, like, again, some of the strongest woman I know, and strong strongest people. And so you go through a lot of uncertainty, and the game has a lot of uncertainty. So there's just a lot of parallels between the journey and the life that we lead. And again, it's full of pride. It's not from a place of complaining or anything like that.

It's just like, you know, we're so proud of them and we play a role in that. And so I was glad to see some of that come out and glad to see a lot of other military spouses who could relate to what I was saying. Okay. Last couple of things. This is a question from Ginny who says, is there a move or something that you did in the game that you thought was really underrated or went unrecognized by a lot of people love you feminist queen that's at immunity idol on Twitter oh my gosh it's literally oh my god thank you thank you for the feminist queen comment nothing warms my heart more moves yeah I mean so here's the thing is like for the for the latter

part of the merge I think the latter part the we saw that we saw that whole thing You got latcher with a team Oh my gosh God that was good That's good Now I even forgot what I was going to say The latter part of the merge

The second part of the merge A lot of agency Was given to Mike And from my perspective Of course the comment has been made Like everyone feels like the game We all see the game through our eyes So it is hard to kind of pull out that from the larger view.

But I really, really did feel and that Mike and I were co-leading a lot of the votes for the latter or second part of the merge. And I think that went very, very under the radar and was very underestimated. And it makes sense from a storytelling perspective. if they wanted to show why Mike got free votes and why I got no votes. But yeah, I do think that Mike and I were collaborators and working very closely. We would loop Nick in, but for the most part, like we were making decisions together. So essentially, I felt like I went from a position of strength at the beginning of the game, weakness at the beginning of the merge, and then kind of re-grew and got back to strength,

again, with Mike, side-by-side with Mike. And so unfortunately, I don't think that translated. much on the show. And he tried to undermine that in the final tribal by saying, like, oh, like, you were obsessed with Allison. But actually, that was part of my strategy was to act like I was second guessing the vote when I really wasn't because I knew that that would make him dig his deal heels in deeper and me get a really clear sense from him about where he was going.

So that I felt like, okay, basically what I'm trying to say is like he and are making decisions together and for the second part of the merge, like, and for actually a lot the boats except for three, I almost had complete information, if not absolutely complete information about where boats were going. And that's the key to the game and having agency is when you know where things are, you can move your piece intentionally and with authority. And so that's, yeah, I think that's something that didn't translate. I think the other thing, too, is just, I've heard this a bit in people's exits where it's like Carl's talking about like our bond and Davey mentioned our bond and Nick's mentioning our bond.

And it's like, even Allison is mentioning our bond. And it's like all these people, like, the edit just showed me being like this ruthless aggressive player. And like the truth was like there was a very strong social aspect to my game. I could have done more of that for sure. But like I did do quite a bit that just wasn't shown because they wanted to show me as just like crazy and intense and like just going all in. And again, I think that there was just so much more to my game that wasn't shown.

Yeah. Okay. Felipe Shimon wants to know. Do you like all of the Angelina memes or no? I love the memes. There's so much content that comes out online that I'm like, and this is just you can't make the shit up. Like it's so creative.

It's like, I feel like one of my strengths in watching all of this back. And it's definitely not coming clear through this interview because I think I've been like picking apart the edit, which was not my intention. but I have had such a good sense of humor about this all and been able to really laugh at myself and laugh at these moments and just be like, man, that is, that's entertaining as hell or that's good TV, like, you know, and the memes are just like the epitome of that where it's like, yeah, I did ask for the jacket like four times and I did, you know, as you mentioned the rice,

way too much. And it's like, again, I'm, I can laugh at myself. I love the means. I love when people have a light heart about it all. Yeah. And I'll be right next. to you, you know, cracking up over it all. So, yeah, love the meetings. And in terms of, you know, talking it through that I totally understand wanting to take the opportunity. Because I think that, you know, as people, we all want to be understood. And it doesn't matter, you know, who it is that goes on the show.

I feel like that there's definitely things like, no, no, no, no, you guys don't understand. It wasn't, it was, it was different. But I just think that you should be very proud of the, that you had such an impact on the show. And even in ways that are going beyond the show, I think there's very few people that could say that, you know, they've inspired conversations that take place outside of the realm of, you know, a, you know, silly reality show that we love, that it's nice to be able to say, you know, you had impact, you know, on the show and then also, you know, inspired a lot of people to have some, you know, thought-provoking conversation. Thank you. Yeah. No, that to me is everything. Like, I think everyone has. has a different idea of like what quote-unquote winning looks like. And obviously Nick won and I'm so glad he won and he deserved the win. But for me, it's like there's other ways that you walk away feeling like you won or you served your purpose. And like Allison talked about this. Like

she had the realization that she was out there to to grow her empathy as a doctor. And I think for me, I was out there with the greater purpose of maybe starting these conversations. And for on a personal level, like feeling more comfortable with these more aggressive parts of my personality and accepting those because I think in real life, I'm definitely not that aggressive. And I was socialized as most women are to be nice, to be liked, that these are to be pretty, like these are the things that I should be valued for. And so to go out there and to be shift of makeup and any hygiene, to go out there and have to play this ruthless game. It's like it put me in a place well outside my comfort.

zone that helped me grow as a person and help me accept parts of myself that maybe I've been a little bit more shy to. And also to like bring aspects of the game into my real life or it's like make the big move, take the risk, like don't wait. And and that's translated in a big way for me. I have quit my job. I know you said it's kind of a stereotype. People quit their jobs after survivor and like make a big life change. But I did. I left my. very comfortable push corporate job two weeks ago to start my own nonprofit full-time. And so that is, again, a direct kind of translation and result of playing this game and going through this transformative life experience for me.

And so to me, that's worth its weight in gold that it had that impact on me personally. And now, like I said, I'm working on ready to run full-time, which if, anyone's understood in learning more about it, the website. I'm still working on it, but it is launched. It's she is ready to run.org. And essentially just the idea is that we need more women in leadership. And I think that starts young. And so my organization will focus on preparing and inspiring middle school and high school girls to run for leadership positions in their schools to prepare them to do so again later on. And so, yeah, again, a lot of it does come back to survivor. And had I not gotten third place and won the money that I did from that,

wouldn't have been able to make this move. Had I not gone and felt kind of like this own sense of self and agency and like have the gumption, I probably wouldn't have had the gumption to like do this. And so for me, that is one form of winning and of having just a very positive outcome from this whole experience. And then do you planned, are you going to be doing a lot of speaking going around to schools as part of starting the nonprofit? Yeah, I mean, nothing solidified yet, but I think one of my goals is, yeah, to go out in person. The main objective is to create a lot of digital content that can be used openly and for free anywhere in the country and around the world. But I do and would love to go to different schools and counties.

And I'm even thinking about doing like a cross-country thing where, I can go and reach girls in person as I'm launching this and getting the word out there. So that's something that an idea I've played with having put it into motion yet. But yeah, put it out into the universe of any principals or teachers or, you know, Board of Ed people are listening and you're interested in having me come and talk to girls in your area. Hit me up. Let me know. I would love to work with you.

Okay. Angelina, thank you for going through all of this stuff. Do you feel like, was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't hit? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm leaving this whole experience just feeling grateful. I think it could be easy to listen to this whole long conversation of ours and be like, man, like, she really has poking holes everywhere and fact checking. And like, and I don't want people to think that I'm salty or scorned or anything. I am leaving feeling grateful for the experience for everyone I met along the way for getting the chance to play. Yes, there are things that I think can be improved,

but I think that you can hold those ideas and ideals simultaneously with just feeling like, wow, I got this chance to play the most amazing game that's ever been created to be a small part of like the survivor history and get to join the ranks of, I think, it's like five to six hundred people who have ever played and so I really just feel honored that they chose me that I got to play a big part in and what is considered one of the best seasons and and really excited to be an alum now and every like past survivor player I meet I'm just like you were the most epic and awesome and like crazy person ever everyone every alumni that you meet some more than others, Rob.

I mean, there's like, you know, 500 can't all be awesome. No, well, my, my, my theory, well, it's just, it's, it's awesome in the sense of, like, we're all so uniquely ourselves that that's, like, so refreshing, because I think a lot of us live life and we hold ourselves back and we hide parts of ourselves in order to socialize or fit in or to not see, like, they don't hold anything back. That's, that's, that's good. We don't hold anything back. And that's what's so, like, honestly, like,

I love that about our community. Like, yeah, it means that we're a little bit wonky sometimes and, like, all of us have our idiosyncrasies, but it's like, that is inspirational in and of itself because I'm now surrounded by this community of people, including my cast. Like, Elizabeth pushes me to, like, own who I am, to be passionate, to be myself and to go after dreams. And, like, Carl, like, pushes me to be honest and up front. And, like, it's just there's all these different aspects of these people that I now have in my

world that are making me a better person and teaching me more about life and their journeys and I don't know to me that's what it's all about um and I'm just yeah just so just so grateful for them and for everything um and I'm happy with with the way everything turned out yeah do you think that you also will now go from a person that survivor casting just to bring this full circle that said that they were somebody that uh once upon time they said no we can't have this person do you think that they are now looking at casting and saying bring us another angelina um i you know i think that'd be cool if they did i have actually or is that a fool's errand what wait what i've never heard this term fools errand is this is this

is it is it is it a uh a impossible task to go and try to find another Angela? No, no, no, no, no, definitely not an impossible task. No, I know, I know so many modern, empowered, outspoken women who are like me and have a similar profile and I actually know a couple who are interviewing or in the process for season 39, who were connected to me by, like, mutual context.

Like they saw someone on Facebook or LinkedIn knew me and they felt like they were really similar to me. So I think there is going to be a wave of more women like me on the show. And I'm really excited for that because I think like Davey was saying, the more representation we can get from, you know, whether it's minorities or women or whatever it is. It's like that just makes for not only a more interesting game, but it's just really important to the people that we represent. on the show too. Okay. All right. Angelina, of course, is on Twitter. Is it, is Instagram the same at Angelina Cardona? So Cardona is for Twitter. And then I'm Healy, Angelina underscore Keeley. Ideally, you want to have it the same. You know, I, yeah, but on Twitter, I've had my maiden name on

there for years and you actually can't change your handle on Twitter. So I just kept my legacy one. and I kind of rock both. I have my maiden name as my second middle name because I didn't want to lose that part of myself. So I have both Rob. I don't know. It is what it is. Okay.

All right. Well, look, you got great stuff either way. Thank you. All right. I'm so glad that you decided to do this. I know a lot of people were really looking forward to hearing you. And I'm sure they will not be disappointed. oh thank you no i i know it's a long one i know these are these are really long interviews to get

through so for anyone who did make it this far thank you for taking the time and interest in listening i hope this was insightful and interesting and helpful and um you know i'm going to continue to have a bit of this these conversations on my instagram i did a live um last week how was that it was great it was really good i got a ton of questions um i you know i'm a big proponent of of like just speaking directly with, I don't want to, I don't call them fans. I think that's kind of demeaning,

like call them new friends, new followers, whatever. And so I'm going to continue doing that again because I think my game was a little bit complicated and a lot of the conversation that came up from this is, again, bigger than me and any of us. So I'm going to keep having those conversations and standing up for what I believe in on my Instagram

and in my real life. And yeah, if people want to keep going on that journey with me, I would love to keep the conversation going and thinking about, again, bigger ways that we can affect some change outside of Survivor on the real world for things that really, really matter. Okay. Angelina, do you have a hashtag that you want people to use that made it all the way to the end

that appreciated hearing from you that you want people to use? Oh, my gosh. Put me on the spot. I don't actually don't use hashtags that much. I'm like totally, I need to get on like Davies level and like, figure all that out but how about this if someone out there in the universe has a good hashtag that they think i should be using no we got to give it out now they got everybody's not going to know it yeah what okay what are your ideas rob do you have any floating around i i don't know uh uh hashtag

hmm uh top angelina uh oh i've seen stanjolina that's really nice that's a nice one it's kind of self-serving though i feel like that's self-serving Well, it's your podcast. It's your podcast. Jackets for all. Jackets for all. Okay. Well, especially with the polar vortex, everybody could use all of the jackets.

Okay. Angelina, thank you again so much and all the best to you, okay? Thank you. You too, Rob. Definitely let's keep in touch and keep doing great work. Thank you so much. All right. Talk to you soon.

Okay. Thank you.