RHAP: We Know Survivor - Survivor AU: Australia V World | Parvati Shallow Post-Season Interview

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

We Know Global Survivor host Shannon Guss talks to Parvati Shallow to dissect every move and every moment of her game of Australian Survivor V World.

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onto the podcast, talk through a whole game. I thought this was a great chat. Faraddy's game, it speaks for itself, and yet she speaks about it so well. It's the kind of game that's so flawless, and the more she talks about it, it just cements that flawlessness to me. So I hope that you enjoy this podcast. Pabody mentioned at the end, she's got so much going on. Follow her on social media. She has a book. She has a course. She's doing so many things. So follow Pavity. I've got some stuff happening. In terms of the podcast, I did exits in the end with everyone, of David, who is the host of the new season, so he's been busy. I am hoping to hopefully get something with David in the future.

And hopefully some other exciting stuff. With Luke, we had an extended ex-interview, almost two hours, more like a deep dive this week as well. For the people here who are here for poverty and who haven't watched a lot of Australian Survivor, maybe you've just watched AUV World or maybe you didn't even watch AUV World. If you've been interested in getting into a Australian Survivor, Mike and I did a podcast for Australian Survivor Newbies, which is a spoiler-free guide to what seasons to watch and what you kind of expect from the franchise.

So all of this is live at we knowglobalsliverr.com. Follow me at Jenny Gates for everything as well. I will say as well. I have started my own podcast with my husband, Peter. We are doing a podcast on our life and our pregnancy journey and our interests and podcasting. And it's a bit of a behind the scenes look at everything that hopefully gets a little deep and is also fun. And we laughed and cried in the first episode, which is officially out.

That's called gussing around. It's on YouTube, just search at Gussing Around podcast. It's currently on Apple Podcasts as well if you search for Gussing Around. If you go to my social media, I've linked to it as well. So it's on YouTube and Apple. And we are working on Spotify and all of the others, but don't know why it's not up. This is the first time I've ever posted a podcast myself. So I'm like, what did I do wrong?

But it will be up on all the podcast app so that you can listen to it. But please check that out because, yeah, it's been a labor of love that we've talked about for a really long time. And I'm really proud of the fact that we've been able to do that. So if you are interested at all in that, please check that out. Follow me at Shannon Gate so that you don't miss any of the content, whether Survivor or now that or anything. So thank you all so much for listening to this. I hope you enjoy and I will see you next time.

Bye. Hello, everyone. I'm here with Poverty Shallow, the winner of Australian Survivor versus the world and Survivor Micronesia and the credentials, you don't need them. If you need the credentials, I don't think you're in the right place. I don't think you're a survivor fan if you need Pavity's credentials, but it's such an honor to be speaking with you. Again, thank you so much for being here, Barb.

Thanks, Shannon. I'm wearing my reputation shirt because I know you went to the ERAs tour with the snake tights. I've got the snake ring and I'm in honor of you and the whole nice girls don't win of it all. I'm in full reputation gear today.

That was the right vibe. Well done. Yeah. It's so awesome to talk to you. I mean, how have you been since the win a couple of weeks ago now? I saw you had like a big party. Like has it crossed the, not the pond,

but whatever it is when you go America like is everyone as excited there that you've had this amazing global win? Yeah, it's been pretty full on and I didn't know what the reception would be because it is hard to watch Australian Survivor here in the US, but people have found a way and they're excited. Yeah, I think for you, I mean, I think when people heard that like you and Surrey were on it, a lot of people were being introduced to Australian Survivor through this, which as an Australian and someone who covers Australian Survivor is amazing. So I think you've done a lot for the franchise. I mean, you say you're kind of done with Survivor now. Was it a hard decision for you

to come and do this three weeks after doing Don D.Die? I know that you obviously had to leave your daughter as well. So you've been booked and busy. So was that like a, you know, it's a short season, but what was your thought process with that? Well, I said yes to Australian Survivor first before. Oh. I'd even been asked for Dondy. So I was most excited about competing on Australian Survivor in this special season. because of the format, because it was a short, fast, furious game, and because it was an international cast, I thought that's so cool. It hasn't been done before. And I really wanted to be a part of the inaugural season. So yeah, I was really excited to say yes and to go out and compete. And then Dondy called. And I was less excited to do that. But I was like, all right, I'll go. They convinced me. And then David was there. So it just felt like so many kind of stars aligning last year with these shows.

Yeah. With my book coming out and then winning Australian Survivor and the title of my book, Nice Girls Don't Win. I was like, oh, this is all really working out kind of perfectly. And I didn't plan it. But thanks. Well, I mean, you achieved it. You know, a lot of that is on you for getting those opportunities and obviously for winning

Australia and so versus. the world was, you know, that's all you. So how much of Australian Survivor had you seen? Like when you got out onto the island, obviously you know Tony, you know Surrey, like how many of these other players had you seen or heard about? I knew Shawnee and George because I'd watched Heroes versus Villains. Right. And I knew who David was because I had just played with him.

And I was watching his show. I was watching his season with Janine as I was prepping for Donnie. I was like in the hotel in Panama watching David's season and then saw him and I was like what? That was so crazy and who else? I knew who Kirby was I'd watch some of her season

I didn't watch the whole season's through because it was it's such a time commitment Australian Survivors long Yes So yeah you guys are really you're diehard Yes it's a it's a huge commitment What about the internationals that had you heard of I mean, you said to Rob, you'd spoken about him with David.

Like, had you even heard of, like, Lisa or any of these kind of global players? No. I hadn't. You know how long survival put back is? No. It's 67 episodes. Yeah. What?

So next time we complain about Australians, it's actually similar length of a straight and survivor. They're short episodes, but, yeah. 67? So how many days is it? It's like 42. The episodes are sometimes, like, just a challenge or, like, just tribal council. It's a trip and it's in French obviously So yeah

Yeah Yeah So who knew about Dondy Because my thing was like Surely Surrey And Tony knew And Tony knew Had you told them or they just had heard of it

I told them I was like I just played Seri knew Like the cast had been announced or Not the whole cast had been announced but they had announced me, David, and Will. Yeah.

And that was like already out there in public domain. So I assumed all the Australians knew as well. Anyone who was like coming to play the game who knew they would, I would, I assumed that they would know that David was out going to come and that they would have had like a guess that maybe I would be coming out to play to. So I just assumed everybody kind of already knew. and I was going to be running kind of, like managing that threat. Yeah.

Up front. So that's why I was like, also the game's so short that I was just like, let me just throw this out there and see how it lands, knowing that I was going to already have to contend with people's fears around me and David having played that game. Yeah, I mean, so they knew you were both out there, but obviously you kind of have to watch Dondy to understand the extent of your bond

with David in that season. So do you know, like if Stiserie kind of know how close you and David were? Did they know that David had won $6 million? Like, well, how much did they know? Because I knew that you were both out there, but that's a lot of information to be coming into the game with David like that.

Yeah, they didn't know any of that. They just knew what I told them, which was David and I played together. We worked together as far as we could. And then he betrayed me at the end. Yeah, which he didn't, really. No, but that was the story that I was saying. I was like, well, there's got to be some kind of story.

If we did end up coming together after the merge, then I would want people to think that I had like an axe to grind with him. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, if people knew kind of the extent, I think, of your relationship, that there was no betrayal. And also if people had to wrap their head around the fact that he put you in against the banker, but it was for your own good because that's how Dondy works. I mean, that's a lot anyway to get to.

before even dealing with you and Dave. I mean, even just explaining it, I've always said the deal on audio island sounds like, it sounds like fan fiction. I mean, even just having to explain that to people. So I'm sure it probably went up. Like, Tony would have been like, you did what now?

You're playing against the Houdna? Yeah, they were. Why does he can involve? They didn't care. Surrey and Tony didn't care at all. And they were like, why did you tell Rob? I was like, oh, I was just trying to build a bridge, God. Yeah.

It didn't work. because Rob had a strange agenda of his own. But yeah, Tony and Surrey cared not at all. Yeah. And also because you have history with both, you know, they're like, if we have to worry about everyone who's played in seasons with everyone, like we'll never stop worrying. Like, these are reality TV veterans.

So I can see how that's going to be a month for them. The internationals, it's a different kind of ballgame because I think for them, they don't have as much experience in the reality. circuit and surrey tony and i have played so many times and different games and tony had just come off of traders as well where he played with rob and he was telling me about what happened there with rob and rob and i are friends tony knows that so i was like oh that's not great either yeah it's all rob's fault and it's what doomed tony in this game um so when you came out onto the island and you saw this breakdown this world tribe what were your feelings because you were

you had like a majority women which was good but you had a minority US we see Rob's already trying to use that like he's coming for you early but I think even before that did the kind of make up of the tribe concern you yeah I thought we're the biggest threats me Siri and Tony and and if they're going to take one of us out it will probably be me or Tony off the bat that's what I was thinking so I was glad that we had the women because I I work well with women and And thankfully, Lisa and Cass were really into that. And they didn't like a macho man coming in and trying to control everyone. So that was really easy to use that kind of justification to get Rob out.

And then we had the numbers after that. Yeah. How early did that form? Because we kind of see that forming a little bit later, but we see the relationships. Was that all-girls Alliance or Black Widow 2.0, one of many Black Widow Brigades through the season? And was that right off the bat before Rob even left that you had that kind of fall locked in? Yeah, we had, I mean, it was, I really hit the ground running on day one as soon as we got to

the beach and everyone was doing that. I had already started forming a relationship with Cass and Lisa and Surrey had something going. So I started working on developing a relationship with Lisa very early as well. And I was just like, I'm not going to talk to Tony and Surrey because that's already kind of locked in. I don't have to worry about it. So bringing the girls in was really important to me from the beginning. So, yeah, that developed really fast. And then when I approached Cass and Lisa and I was like, is it me?

Is it me? I already had been developing a relationship with those two from the very beginning. So I could read them very easily in that moment when they were like, yeah, it's you. Yeah. But I think also that was one of the reasons why they did tell me, give me all that information about Rob, throwing my name out. Well, let's talk about Rob because this is, I mean, look, I thought, you know, much like you and David on Dondy, this was like, you know, the world imploding with charm, which is what I kind of felt like it would be like with you and Rob, but I feel like you were clocking each other off the bat. it wasn't this like obviously comfortable relationship you were trying with it and it's usually your mo but it's something like wasn't working then he's going to end up coming for you because

you won't through surrey under the bus like how did it devolve to that point in such quick succession um well i found that a lot of the times there's people who have very big egos and they want to be in charge and those kind of people and me are like oil and water we just don't work well together because I'm going to speak my mind and I'm going to be direct and also tell you like it doesn't fly with me that strategy and what they want to hear is yes okay I'll do whatever you say and I'm not that kind of player so when I when I'm just being myself with Rob it just instantly was like bulls budding heads and I was like okay well there's no amount of diplomacy or tact or even having conversations that's going to move the needle on this guy because

he just has his heels dug in and he wants to run the show. And that's just not going to work with me. I need allies who I can have conversations with. We can be flexible. We can really work together to create a plan and to move things forward. He's just not the guy. He wants to bulldoze and he wants to tell people what to do. And I guess that worked for him in his first season. But he did. Yeah. It was really easy to shut that down. You watched it? Yeah, I covered it. Yeah, it was impressive.

No one did what you did. Everyone was just like, yes. And then they just did that the whole season. It was insane. And the fact that immediately you come out and you're like, wait, no, we're not doing that is not what people were really doing in that season at all. Okay, well, now I understand why he was like, my strategy is foolproof. Yes. it worked 100% the first time,

which is maybe now a little shocking, but maybe speaks to how impressive it was in that season. But the fact that we've talked about it for years and the fact that you immediately dismantled it to be like, what if we don't do that? It's like, wait, you can do that? Because since 2019, we didn't know that people could do that to Rob. So that was just funny to watch and actually to think about after the fact.

I could not believe when they were all in the water and I walked down into the water and Rob, Lisa, Cass, and Tommy are standing there chatting. And I have already cultivated a relationship with Lisa and Cass at this point. And also Rob. And I walk up and Rob's like, who are we going to, who do you want to vote for? Surrey. And I was like, what?

Like, he's like bullying me in the water trying to get me to just say something. And I'm like, no, bro. Like, everybody here has an opinion and needs to have a chat. with other people like that's just not how I operate I think we all we all just need our time to talk and he like I saw his like head kind of click click click around like it like and then Lisa fell like a wave crashed over it's like what's happening yeah yeah that was the moment where it just like switched yeah well in Rob's season some people did try to fight against it and he did squish them like bugs, right? So I think that that's how he was seeing, like, if people didn't

bend the knee, they went home. So I think that that kind of makes sense of, but you, that's not you. You know, that's not abdi shallow. But yeah, so then when he brings up the Dondy bomb that we called it at tribal council, did that have as much of an impact as it did in like the ad break worthy tension on TV or did it not hit as hard in real life? Oh, it was pretty tense. I looked at him and I was like my blood was boiling because I was like I already know that this guy is trying to get rid of me like I know he's trying to blindside me I've already talked to everybody on the tribe and have already turned the tables against him unbeknownst to him because he's so cocky it didn't even enter his mind that this could be happening and he thought he had this like ace up his sleeve and he was just going to like put the final nail in my coffin with that. And I was just like, you did not have to do that. If you already thought you had all the numbers against me, like, you didn't have to go that low. And then when he's like sucking his teeth as he was saying it, he was like, I know about you and David. And he is like,

just like, I will rip your throat out. But I have been trained to stay calm. and centered in the midst of confrontation, especially with controlling men who have huge egos. So I've really trained myself inside of this kind of dynamic. And yeah, so I don't show any of the rage that is bubbling inside me at this moment in time with Rob. But I just was like, oh, God, you don't. don't even, there's no self-awareness here because him pointing at me and talking about me and David just turns around and shines a spotlight on him because all people have seen is him

talking to David at these challenges. So I'm like you, it was just like it was a complete lack of self-awareness. And I think he was just blinded by his own superiority in that moment, his just big ego, like couldn't get out of the way where he couldn't see that. He was doing the exact same thing that he was pointing the, putting suspicion on me for and I was like, well, nobody's seen Dondy, but they have seen you chatting it up with David and every single challenge. So how do you fight your way out of that? I do think your survivor legacy is so much built up of like how you work with and empower women, but I do think another part of it is what you speak about. Obviously, like beyond like anything

in your personal life of even just like having worked with Russell through all of Heroes versus villains in a way that I think Russell was my this is me editorializing but like pretty toxic and you're 26 and you're like defiant and standing up to him and it's just like power struggle against this man who's like quite a bit older than you at that point and who is so controlling like watching that back later in my life it's an amazing season but I was like this is beyond the game and I feel like yeah there's so I don't know I don't know that I have a point but I feel like it's just like there's so much of your story that is standing up against that on screen and having so much strength. Like it's probably amazing for a lot of women to look to. And I do think it's like a big part of

your survivor legacy. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Like I don't wish that on people to have to deal with those kinds of personalities. But honestly, the world is full of them. It really is. And I don't like getting locked in a power struggle with anybody. So that's why I'm like, I love Survivor because you can just vote out the controlling percentage. get rid of them but i mean in the case of russell i didn't have that ability because i had no other allies so i had to work with him in the game but at least in life you can exit those relationships or if it's a work situation like quit the job find a new job you never i hope that people find for themselves that they really never have to stay in a situation with a person like that

that feels bad or sucking your soul or draining just get out and something else that's really good a better fit will come along yeah well i mean you get through this vote they take out rob and um yeah so where was your kind of priorities because you had had this like u.s priority with tony tony's gonna go next but you seem to be working with him obviously like you didn't get to work with him or be on a beach with him ever in winners at war he did point out to me and it is It's true that you did extort him. You did not vote for him to win. You obviously voted for Nat.

So was there any kind of tension there or were you really trying to work with Tony and there was just like these competing interests and like the other side wanted Tommy and it was what it was. I could tell that Tony didn't trust me. It was so obvious. And also I had played winners at war where Yule had this like grudge against me for not voting for him to win since 2006. So I'm aware people hold grudges like that.

I don't personally. I didn't remember that I extorted Tony until you just told me that. I didn't remember that because he won. So if it was me, I would be like, oh, I won, whatever. And I don't know. But I'm thinking if I'm Tony and Tony just got destroyed by Rob in traders, Rob's a good friend of mine. Tony's aware of that. I didn't vote for Tony in winners at war. I voted for

personal reasons. And honestly, like, I thought she was amazing. Anyone who could get voted out first battle their way back to the end of the game, the way that she did and sit at the final three, earn my vote. And I just had no relationship with Tony whatsoever. So that was why I voted that way in winners at war. And then when we met on the beach, I was like, oh, Tony. Like, I just have no rapport with him. And I think also I had a couple of strikes against me. If I'm putting myself in his shoes, which I do. That's how I think in these games.

I don't think from my own brain. I'm like, if I'm Tony, how would I think about this? And I just felt like there wasn't good feelings between us. It was like, yeah, we're both huge threats. We probably should stick together and protect each other for a certain amount. of time. But as soon as he had a chance, I knew he would just cut loose and go run around and cause chaos. And I would be out. So I wasn't trying to like really stand up for him and protect him. But I did feel like if it's Tommy or Tony, I probably would keep Tony. But I wasn't

like, oh, let me dig my heels. I didn't really fight for this one because I didn't trust him either. And I felt he didn't trust me. Like we didn't share the information about the idol with him. Yeah. So going into that tribal council where you don't know what's going to happen because it's a double tribal was the thought Tony will probably go, but like maybe we don't have to vote or was it vague enough and you kind of didn't care enough or like, you know, whether Tony goes or not, like what was your thinking before Tony like puts the shoe around his neck? We were still kind of up for debate. It was in Surrey were like, we don't want to get rid of Tony. Even Surrey was saying that. I mean, she said she would get rid of him to appease him to appease him.

the girls but she didn't want to she knew like that would be conceding something that we maybe needed so we were both like rather just get rid of Tommy but also we didn't know what was going to happen at that tribal we thought maybe we would all be voting together and we would vote out like yeah one of the Aussies we didn't know so we're like oh if we can pull one of the Aussies and we were like running scenarios as if we were going to vote out one of that so we were not really prepared. And then when Tony put the shoe around his neck and started coming for me,

it was so easy to make the choice to get rid of him at that point. Because I was like, if he had an idol, he would be showing it off. Yeah. You must have been like... Yeah, you must have been like, what do I have to do in this game

to not be, get all this heat at every tribal council? Like, we just, I mean, it must have, yeah, how are you feeling about it at that point? I mean, that alone, the fact that the next day Luke will then send you out of the auction, you're like, can I just have a break for five seconds and those games? I know whenever I play Survivor, really kind of any competition game, there is going to be a lot of heat on me. It's one of the reasons why I like playing the games, because I like that

kind of intensity. And I'm like, that's where I really like shine. I like to be tested and kind of thrown into the fire and then see how I can like battle my way through that. and get out of it and still win in the end, even when the heat has been on me from the beginning. So I'm like, I just know that's coming and I'm sort of armored up and ready for that. But yeah, it's like, it was crazy because all the heat was on me

and then people would write Surrey's name. They'd write something like Surrey, not Surrey's name particularly, but they'd write some semblance of Surrey, S-E-Y-E, maybe. But yeah, she was, yeah, picking up all the votes for that. But you were getting a lot of the heat. I was wondering, you know, you made that deal with Kath

where you said, I'll take this one. And then the next time we're inevitably in an endurance challenge, the two of us, you take that one. Why was that so important to you to have that immunity? I mean, it's not really a deal you're going to keep, which we can talk about as well. But was it just like you'll say anything at that point? Or did you really want to be immune at that tribal council,

considering like you also were going to get the idol as well? or like what kind of went into the thinking of that deal? I've never struck a deal in an endurance challenge and it looked like Cass was going to hang on forever. So I was like, oh, let me just see if there's a little strategy to be done here. And if I can kind of create a little seed of a question mark in her mind that's like, oh, maybe if you give up now, you could get something later just to see. it was sort of like a let's like throw this out there and see how it's received and when she said no I was like okay I'm settling in yeah like in any endurance challenge my goal is to win because I know that's sort of my strength is those kind of challenges I didn't know how good cast would be in those times she's incredible yeah so yeah I was like oh let's just see I don't I didn't think that I like desperately needed the immunity but

You never know. Yeah. I'm so interested in this dynamic with Cass. Like she said that you're the reason she started loving the game. She was a huge fan of yours. But there was, you even said at the final tribal council, this like cool almost, you know, competition between you. How was that playing out in your dynamic in this relationship that you had,

obviously through now and the merge? No, I loved Cass. We had very easy conversations. We talked a lot about family, home. and some situations that we've been in that have been challenging for us that were similar, like life experiences. So, yeah, we just, we had like a very good relationship. And then on top of that, we were working together.

We had the four women that was really pretty solid, but it was really undercover. Because once the merge happened, before the merge happened, we'd had a conversation, the whole world tribe. And it was like, oh, let's just make it look. look like it's the world versus U.S., like the internationals versus U.S. to keep kind of the pretense alive that like there's an ability for the Aussies to kind of get in and break this up. So because of that, Kass and I weren't like hanging out very much after the merge.

And when I had conversations with the Aussies, I would say, oh, yeah, we're kind of frenemies. And there's this like contentiousness between us. But there wasn't. There really wasn't. It was just, I was just saying that so that they would. like think there was a crack and then we could do whatever we needed to do beyond that. Yeah. But in the endurance challenges, I was like, oh my God, this girl.

At the end, I knew the final challenge and Australian Survivor is an endurance challenge. So I was like, oh, no, if she's around at the end, this is going to be brutal. And I was like, God, could I just make it a little easier for myself? like not have her there at the end. If you're both there, that's like an eight-hour challenge. I know. Going into the night and maybe the next day. And to be honest, Shannon, I'm like,

I would just prefer to vote her out before that. Yeah, who wants to do that? Who has the time of the patience to stand on tiny little pegs for 10 hours? So very understandable. And I thought that targeting her made so much sense. Before you target her, you get the podium idol. And we see you really use that to,

connect the women. Like how, how were you, I mean, such an epic moment getting Jonathan to hold your torch and taking the podium idol. But how are you kind of looking at that and like really sharing that as something for the group and something to kind of unite all of you? Well, it's always fun to have a group project. I love a group activity. And I can't keep my mouth shut. When I found the key, I squealed. So they knew that I had found it. And I was like, oh, my God, I can't. I can't. I You can't keep anything contained if I'm excited, like you know about it. So then it just became this group thing. And it really brought us all together because before that, it was really just me, Cass, and

Surrey strategizing together. But Surrey and Lisa were talking individually and me and Lisa were talking individually. And Cass and Lisa were talking individually. So we're like, let's just do this for and bring Lisa into the immunity idol. she wasn't there when we found the key and she wasn't there when we opened the box so she kind of missed out on that group activity so I think she always felt a bit like

the odd man out of the four person group but she loves to Reese so much it just could cover it all sins yes I understand it was very relatable so getting to the merge the auction's going to happen straight up Luke's going to send you out of the auction he said to me that he kind of felt like

you would understand you have the David connection you did not understand seemingly you were like I'll dare you and then you get like the cookies and then you break the cookie store it was amazing and then you get the idle stealer so yeah what was that couple of hour if that turnaround for you

and how are you kind of feeling at the merge again with the heat you know but now with this like bag of tricks and this like jar broken jar of cookies Like, what was your perspective at that point? Oh, it was an emotional roller coaster. I was like, yeah, I was mad at Luke, but I was also, like, really playing it up. Yeah.

Because it's emotional warfare. That's what Survivor is. So I'm like, yeah, I'm angry, but I'm also, like, using this as game. So if people think I am furious at Luke and I'll never forgive. him then that can be used later you know so i just like really blew blew it up big and like gave him a nice countdown and really kind of scared him and then when we got back when i got back to camp and those cookies were there i was like what this is amazing they were so good they were so soft and yummy and there were so many of them they were huge like the size of my hand it just and then watching

the the auction back i was like god so many people didn't even eat. So I really, Luke did me a big favor sending me back to camp. Yeah. And then also getting the advantage. But what you don't see is when everyone gets back to camp, everyone starts chatting. And Luke and I had a great conversation after that. He's like, can we talk? And I was like, yeah, he's like, leave the machete. And I was like, don't worry, I can kill you with my bare hands. That's my favorite line. That was really good. We went off and chatted. And it was just like, He's like, we can play this. Like, we're enemies and people won't know.

And I was like, whatever. Like, I'm actually not really mad at you. Like, I can, I forgive very, I have a very short time on, like, there's heat and anger. And then I'm like, okay, it dissipates. And now it's like what's best for my game. And what's best for my game is aligning with Luke and playing with this person who clearly everyone on the Australian tribe, has a connection with. I just watched. Kirby would come up to Luke. Shawnee would,

Janine would, Sarah would. Everyone was one-on-one talking with Luke and I was like, this guy is important. So I wasn't going to like ice him out. Yeah. Yeah. He was definitely like the only, I said to him the only person like really like flying the Australian flag in the entire season and assuming people would be patriotic, which they weren't. Something we didn't see on the show but that people have said to me in X interviews was how you were using the cookies. and going to people with even the sandy glassy cookies and bringing people in like who did you bring in with the cookies and share and how are you kind of using that with people i gave tommy a cookie yeah i gave him the one clean cookie i had left that did sand on it but it was crazy it was raining

that night and i was like oh my god like what can i even where can i put these cookies people are going to see so i had it like wrapped up in my scarf in my bag and so then i was just like time here and I pull him out in the rain on the path and I'm like I heard you didn't get any food I'm sorry like let's you know here this is for you I just feel bad for you and I unwrapped it and it's just like crumbs wet soggy crumbs he just opens his hands and I pour the cookies out so grateful for his crumbs yeah he was like thank you he lit up like a Christmas tree and it was really sweet. And I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to give you anymore. Because I was like, Shannon, as soon as I put them in the kettle, I buried the kettle. And then when I opened the lid

for the kettle, sand poured in again. Oh my God. I just couldn't have a clean cookie. And I gave them to Luke all that. Luke and I ate sandy cookies for the whole rest of the game. But I told Luke, I was like, look, because we'd had that conversation on the beach and he was like, let's play together. And I was like, okay, I'm down. And I was like, I had already made the day. deal with Kirby and Shawnee to get rid of Sarah that night. And Luke didn't know about it. And then I was like, look, if we come back from tribal and there hasn't been any kind of like move made against me, I have something sweet for you that you may have had in the past.

And he's like, what? You knew about that? Yeah. So then we had to share our cookies. We shared the cookies that night. And I inducted him into the Sandy cookie club. And they didn't show any of that. Yeah.

But it was like the whole rest of the time out there. Yeah. I feel like if I was off at something sweet and it was like sandy cookies, I'd be like, oh, okay. I don't know, but I've never been on Survivor. Yeah, I think he was like, all right, cool. Yeah. I was like, it's not like a power move giving him these sandy cookies, but it's not nothing.

I, like, I won't eat anything. I don't like. Even, like, there was someone on Survivor in New Zealand on Leafs this season who was like, I hate rice, I'm just not eating it anymore. That's how I'd be like, don't want it. It's like, this is what's available to you, the sandy cookies. I'd be like, no. I was still eating.

I would eat them before every challenge. Yeah, that's good. To go behind a tree and eat my sandy cookies. And like, I'm still like pulling little grains of sand out of my molars. Well, that's disgusting. So you meet the Australians. They all want to work with you. What was that like?

you know, Kobe, Sarah. I'd spoken to Sarah, I think, before the game, and she was like, poppies out there, you know. She was so excited about that prospect. Shawnee, it was like a match made in TV heaven. Yeah, what was that kind of like? How are you recalibrating? Because you have the strong thing with the world girls.

And now you've got all these other people who want to work with you. Were your priority shifting? Or how are you kind of looking at your game as you meet these new people and form these new relationship? Beyond Surrey, I wanted to stay really fluid. So I just knew with Surrey, I could do anything I wanted pretty much because she's so good socially and I trusted her so much that she would work whatever end of the beach she was on and I could work whatever end of the beach I was on.

We have very different ways of relating to people, but they're both very effective. So I was like, I'm just going to develop relationships with the Aussies because we had this kind of agreement. with the world tribe where let's make it look like it's just me and seri and then you three are together and we don't really work together so that they feel like they can have some kind of play and i think that worked pretty well because kirby only knew of me and seri she she didn't think that i was also working with the girls from the world drive because i said i wasn't i was like yeah no we're not yeah we see that you explicitly say like you would have been gone if you didn't have the necklace.

So you were kind of painting a different story of what had happened at the World Tribe. Yeah. And she believed it. And I was like, okay, well, this gives me some wiggle room. Like this gives me maneuverability. And that was really all I wanted. And Shawnee had just had a baby. And I was like that in Winters at War.

And it was freaking torture, leaving my baby to go play Survivor. So I just like shared, we related on that level. And I think that was helpful. And yeah, it was just like Janine and David are best friends. So Janine and I were able to form a really close relationship quickly just based on that shared friendship connection. So it was just like kind of easy to bond with the Aussies. And they already had so much drama from their first couple of tribals. It was like, okay, I can I can like kind of switch this up now.

and do what works for me. And then as soon as the world, as soon as I got like any kind of sense that things were shifting in the game, I had already built relationships. Like I already had Luke that I had been working with and chatting with and sharing cookies with. I had Janine who had been talking with about David

and her life and her kids and Shawnee with the baby. And then Kirby. And it was just like I had my flirtation with Kirby. Like, I had a different kind of relationship established with every single person on the Aussie tribe. By the time I got wind of, oh, there's a move going to be made against me. I just already had them kind of locked in. Yeah. So what was your perspective?

Because we do see there's a little bit of like a push and pull and that was something that we see throughout the season of allies wanting different things. And the world girls or the world tribe wanted to just do a straight all the worlds on like a Janine. and you really trusted Kirby and Shawnee to go for Sarah, but obviously it was a risk because you were technically breaking up the world votes. They could have come over the top. Did any part of you fear that risk? Did any part of you think maybe I'll stick strong with just doing the world? Or like what was your consideration in this choice?

I trusted Kirby and Shawnee at that point. I'm just like, get like, Saris said it in one of the tribal council. She's like, I listen for what has the ring of truth. And Kirby and Shawnee, it was like a flash conversation in the shelter. Kirby was like, we want to do this. Let's go. And everyone was kind of scattered all over, didn't know what to do.

They wanted, World wanted Janine. But then the Aussies were saying Lisa. And it was like no plans had landed. So on Survivor, I've just learned to wait it out and to not. be so proactive sometimes. I just sit back and then let the plan come to me if it's not something that I'm driving forward. So I just sat in the shelter and then the plan came right to me. It was like a gift. Kirby just set. She's like, I want Sarah. Shawnee's like down. I'm here. I'm like, Ceri's there. I'm like, that's all we need. So I wasn't, I really wasn't worried

that night at all. I really trusted that that. plan was going to happen and I knew that Surrey had so much pull with the world with Lisa and Cass that they would do what Surrey told them to do and I was like they were just worried about someone having an idol and us getting played so they were down to vote

kind of the other sort of throwaway name just as backup in case someone had an idol yeah so yeah I was like oh this plan's gonna come off without a hitch I it was like I was so locked in. No other game of Survivor has been like that for me where it's been like I'm locked in every single vote. I think I got there in Micronesia towards like the second half of the game. But in this game I was locked in from day one from when as soon as I realized Rob wasn't the guy to work with and I turned and I was like we're killing off Rob.

it was like that was it and I was just on point every single time yeah and I knew it I could feel it I could feel when something was shifting or changing or someone was not going to do what they said they're going to do or there's some doubt I could sense it it was like I don't know it was like it was like an otherworldly kind of intuitive experience for me this time yeah and you're reading that like Shawnee and Kirby love you so much you know like that they Like that's, and that's like a very good read that they're definitely not like double crossing you. They deserve an Oscar if they were double crossing you, I think, at that tribal council, they're so clearly want to work with you.

So then in the next vote where Kirby's going to eventually go, but you're with Kirby kind of targeting Lisa and you have this thing with Cass where you're back in the endurance challenge, you tell JLP to shut up and not bring up the deal. And then it seems like beforehand had Cass been vulnerable, she might have been a target as well. So were you already looking at that juncture to kind of start targeting the world, and particularly Cass before she's immune? Yeah, I was because not only had Janine mentioned Cass to me, Kirby had also mentioned Cass to me in the shelter that morning,

which is why I confronted Cass, and I was like, what's going on? People are saying you're saying my name. It was only shown that Janine said it, but Kirby had also said it. So I was like, who do I trust here? Is it Cass or Kirby? Like somebody's lying to me? And at that point, I was then doubting Kirby because I, I'd talk to Cass and Surrey and I was like, what's happening? Kirby's saying that Cass is throwing me out.

And then I was like, but I also, we also had this kind of ploy, this decoy going on that the World Tribe was against Surrey and I. So I was like, are you saying that to people? Where's this coming from? But I don't know if she was even saying it to people or they were just making it up to try to break us up. So, yeah, I was just on my mind and I was like, she's such an endurance beast. If she gets to the end, it's going to be torture for me. And I also really wanted to play with the Australians. It's called Australian Survivor.

So I just, like, I wanted to shake things up, too, because I thought that would be more fun. When I'm playing these games, I'm like, I'm doing a couple of things. I'm playing the game to win. And I'm also making a TV show. And it's, I wanted to be fun. for people to watch the show. So I try to do the thing that's going to be the most fun

usually. That also works for my game. Yeah. Well, I mean, from a TV perspective, everyone was loving you and Kirby as short lived as it may have been. And you're kind of brought in here to the point where Kirby is going to go. And I think it's on the strength of like, Surrey and the world's, you know, coming together

there and maybe Surrey's different priorities on that. And I think you explained it kind of perfectly at the final tribal council. But yeah, what was that like for you having to consider your idol and Kirby and like you it was such a great like as someone who loves both you and Kirby like it was wonderful and I felt your pain in that so yeah what was your kind of thought process through having to let Kirby go there that was really hard because Kirby had been like building a bridge with me since day one when we met up with each other at that first

challenge and I knew that she wanted to work with me and I wanted to work with her too because She's such a powerful player. And I was like, God, I could have like a couple really solid allies here if I stuck with Kirby. And also people were threatened by her. And I knew they were threatened by us together because we weren't trying to hide that we had some kind of chemistry. Like, it was just obvious. And we were sleeping next to each other in the shelter and like waking up and cackling. And like, it was just fun.

Yeah. So that's obvious. And people don't like that. They get really scared of a bond like that. The audience loved it. The audience loves it. Yeah. Yeah.

But the other competitors in the game are like, that's dangerous, especially if it's two strong players. So I'm like, oh, God, I just probably also need to reduce my threat level. And I definitely don't need to blow up every single one of these relationships that I've built to save Kirby right now because then it would just be me and Kirby against everyone. And that doesn't work. on Survivor. So I just,

I ultimately ended up going with the group because also I had said Kirby's name to Cass and Surrey earlier that morning because I was like Kirby because I pulled Surrey and Cass

I was like, look, Kirby told me this morning that Cass, you're saying my name like what's the deal? Are you doing that? She's like, no, I'm not. So I was like, okay, well maybe we need to get maybe we need to get rid of

Kirby if she's trying to like break us up like that and then Cass went running off so I was like oh no what have I done now I'm not exactly yeah curvy's name and so I was like oh god Cass is going to go implement this plan that I just randomly it like fell out of my mouth and so I was like oh wait did this plan happen because of me because I said that but then Janine separately had already started the plan over there with Surrey so I I didn't know that it already had legs. So I was like, okay, I just know I'm in too deep here. I just needed to like sit on my hands and not cause chaos in that tribal council and not

play my idol. But that's really hard for me. I think because Luke and I are very similar players in that way. We're sort of like chaos players, impulsive sometimes. And we'll do the thing that's like the big flashy thing because we like that kind of intensity. but having Surrey neutralizes me

and then Luke having Janine neutralizes him so that it was really interesting to have kind of mirrors out there this season you can get protein at home or a protein latte at Tim's no powders no blenders no shakers

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So the double tribal council, I think, is one of your best episodes in Survivor ever. I feel like, firstly there's like some heat on you, but not as much as it would have seen because Lisa didn't want to do it. She told me, Cass didn't want to do it. Tommy is bringing up your name. but then even the Australians have this connection with you and then they're reverting to you as well. Then you have the idol. Like the way that I think that you were able to convert a little bit of heat

into taking out your number one endurance target, as you're saying that, like, number one threat to really, I think the way that you were using your idol as like a fear tactic, having it around your neck and saying you'll play it for you and three, like through the whole post, like kind of that merge phase was very effective. I think that for me in this game, It was a very fast game and you kind of like, you know, like ship up or ship out. And I think that everyone else fell away a little bit.

And these are very talented players. But I think everyone else maybe got a little exhausted by the pace and like couldn't keep up. And the thing that I think is maybe most oppressive from you in this game, which is a high bar, is that in the high pressure situations like this double tribal council, when things are moving so fast, your instincts were so good. And I think maybe through decades of being under the pressure and responding to it, you just. just responded perfectly, like this double tribal council was impeccable. So what was your kind of thought process going into that tribal council? We see that you're like, I'm not loving these conversations, like what's happening? And then you pull out the idol and then these conversations are going to happen where you're going to turn on the worlds and really use this connection that

you have had forming with the Australians. What was what was the thought process through all of that? I knew I needed to shake it up because I didn't want to go into the end game with Five World that would be so boring. Yeah, and that's not good for you, I don't think. Like, it's not good from a cast perspective. I don't think that you have the emphasis there. Like, Surrey has a little more of it. But, like, you're not at the top of that.

Why we'd, like, that's not a great, that's not a great end gate for you? That was not where my head was at. I was already, like, playing a couple of steps ahead where I was like, I don't want to get rid of past because I knew. I really did know that she was playing a loyal game to a point and they would go five to the end and then they would vote me out and then they would it's like they wanted to systematically do that and I sensed it and I was like they're super loyal and actually really trustworthy but I have to find a way yeah but like but I'm not I have to

find a way to get them out of the game and keep their respect so the only way I'm going to be able to do that is if it's a defensive play. If it's like, I'm afraid that they are going to take me out. So I am playing this way out of defense. And everyone had been saying before, Kirby had been saying before in this game, you got to get them before they get you. So I just used what Kirby was saying because everyone was agreeing with that. So then I was just like, okay, well, if anyone, now they've thrown my name out now they're trying to get me even if they weren't which at that tribal council I was like oh they're actually not yeah but I need to like I need to play this as if I firmly believe they are trying to blindside me and I have to keep this whole act going for

days afterwards because Lisa's still in the game and I have to get her out and I have to have a good reason to get them out that's not me just like betraying the world tribe you know when they wouldn't have done that so i know it's like that was jury management for me because i've been so burned by people on the jury who've been like mad at me because i voted them out when i was like you guys weren't going to work with me anyways but it was proactive then and this way i was like okay if it's if it's defense self defense they can't get mad at me like if there there was a plan and it doesn't matter if it didn't like come through it like if there was a plan then i think i have enough kind of ammo to throw the throw them out of the game and just be like yeah you guys

were gonna get me at some point oh i had to get you before you got me and then thankfully they did respect that. But yeah, it was like really dramatized on my part. Yeah. And we talked about the bluff in the X interview and I recommend everyone check that out where you like hadn't remembered the rules and you were like reading it and then you were like stopped reading it, which was again one of the best moves ever. But like what's maybe even more, like that's so impressive and that's like one move. But like what's maybe the most impressive thing to me is like how are you protecting? And like everyone had their own reasons. I've spoken to Luke and he kind of was in his head about getting to the end but like you are the biggest target at seven i mean the whole game but

like really like eight seven six five and they don't come for you and you don't even need your idol you're not going to get a vote in this season like how is your read through those rounds and how are you protecting to like no still do tommy let's just keep the pace let's just take out you know like lisa here let's just take out shone like how what are you doing in that way to a read it so well and be have it happen at all because it was it was bizarre to me that they weren't taking the shot when it felt like shot must be taken surely against you i think it what helped me was cass and tommy were very good in immunity challenges so they had a different kind of threat level that was like let's just get rid of them because they're going to win

immunities. So you're good at immunity challenges. So what? But you're also like really good at immunity challenges. So if I hadn't won any of those individual immunities except for the endurance. Except the one you want. Tommy was winning the obstacle courses. And if I'm and like I'm like I'm thinking for Luke. If I'm Luke, I'm like yeah, I want Tommy out of the game because I want win immunity challenges. Who's a bigger challenge threat? Me or Tommy? If you're, if you're Luke. Right. On Luke's skill set. Yeah. Exactly. Based on Luke skill set. So I'm thinking for Luke and I'm like, Luke is going to go with me if I say Tommy. Janine's going to go with Luke. And at that point, Shawnee would go with whatever the majority was saying. It wasn't her. So she was down to do that.

And Surrey would go with me. So I was like, I have everyone that I need. It was very easy. easy to do pass and very easy to do Tommy that night because I was like they're the biggest immunity threats. And then the next one was Luke was so mad at Lisa. Luke already had just like weird animosity with Lisa and like Lisa hated Luke and they just hated each other. So I was like, oh, just use that little drama that they have and nobody's looking at me. It's like point to this is Survivor 101. If there's people just kind of offering themselves up as a sacrifice, allow them to go. Just do that.

Don't overcomplicate it. And so Luke's hatred with Lisa and his like anger for her wanting to quit. He was just so like outraged by that. And I was like he's not going to change his vote and save her. So I just knew that as well. It was sort of like each vote kind of offered itself up. And it sort of unfolded in a way where I was like, yep. And then by the time it was Shawnee or Surrey, I knew that Janine had already established this

really strong relationship with Surrey. And Luke didn't want to go against Janine. So I was like, I'm good. I actually can tear up my thing because my advantage because I don't need it. And me keeping this advantage in the game is only going to create more chaos for me to navigate. it. So I'd rather just not have it because I'm safe. I'm safer without it. Yeah. Did you ever want to change it up? Like, you're protecting so well for them to not change it up on you, which they should have because you were in Lisa's saying it. They're great. Like Lisa's and I'm like,

she's right. They shouldn't want to go to the end with you and they're doing it. And you're like, please stop talking. Please stop saying what is true. But did you ever think like maybe not to go to the end with Luke and Janine? Did you have other options? Did you think about like a Shawnee or Lisa or anything like that? Or were you kind of happy to go? in with this four to the end and let it play out from there. I was thrilled to go with the four and I really liked the mirror images because I felt like with me and Surrey, it was sort of this destiny point. And I was really into that. I loved it. And then I saw Luke and Janina sort of like our down under counterparts. It was like,

it was like the different hemispheres, like the polar opposites, but mirror images of the to kind of like loyal friends who are now kind of going to battle it out at the end. And I really had total faith in myself winning that final immunity challenge. So I was like regardless, all I have to do to make it to the end from this four is win this endurance challenge. I know I can do that. So I felt like really, I felt really good about kind of there was some like poetic justice of bringing the four of us to the end.

I liked it. I liked having the four and I liked having it be like a complicated scenario where it was going to be a Sophie's choice and it was like there's no clear, there's no clear person who's going to turn on somebody and then we're going to have a three. It's like, how are you going to get to a three from a four when there's two and two? Yeah. Did you have any faith that Janine would vote with you? I mean, you again are like such a sure bet to win that endurance challenge in that four

and pretty much with anyone except Cass. So you're fine. you're good to go. But did you worry for Surrey? Like, did you think it would go to file? Or did you hope that Janine would vote with you there? Janine was telling us she was going to vote with us. And I think it was a really hard choice for her.

Janine knew that she wouldn't win if Luke was in the end with her. So she really did sacrifice herself for her country by taking him to the end. I think she would have had a better shot. And she probably would have gotten some votes if she had been sitting with me. and Surrey at the end. I don't know. How can we know that? Who knows?

But yeah, she took one for the team, bringing him. We thought, Surrey and I were like, Janine's going to come with us. Like, we did think that. And then there was also like the snagging sort of like, what if she doesn't? So we knew it was a risk. Yeah, you know that you're going to be okay, though,

because your chances of winning that endurance challenge are like, I don't know, 90% feels almost unkind. Like, it's probably high. Yeah. And Surrey also, just to add this thought, like, Sarie felt really good about the four with me and Janine and Luke because she thought that Janine would vote out Luke. Like she was pretty certain about that. So I was like, I'll follow her lead on this too, knowing that like I felt my chance. I was like, I'm at the end. With this group of four, I'm at the end. I'm good. Like with honestly, like any group of four, I would have been at the end.

But I was also deferring to Surrey too and how she wanted to play and what she wanted to do. And she was down. Like she wanted that for. Yeah. How were you reading Luke? Like as he makes, well,

makes you tear up the idol stealer, which you do to further your game. But agency is something that can be debated, I guess. I was firstly wondering, did Luke see the bluff when he tore it? Because I was kind of joking that he might get the half that says, like, play this blank votes cards. Oh.

I told him. I was like, Luke, you didn't have to tell me because I have to play it before the votes are red. And you, like, I never would have known that you had an idol. And he's like, then it's like his face fell and he felt stupid. And then he came on really strong to get me to tear the thing up. Because before that, he was like, ah, like, I think he felt like he was, he was terrified because he thought that my thing was so powerful, my advantage was so powerful, I could just, like, expose his idol and take anybody's idol at any point in time because the way I had not read the rest of the

rules. Yeah. And then once he realized he had made a mistake by telling me, then he was, he lost, he lost his mind. He was like, please, please, please tear it up. Like, tear it up now. Like, will you do it now? Like, how about now? And he was like, really tweaking out. And I was like, oh, God, I just don't need him going crazy for the next four hours before tribal. Because if I had kept the parchment intact and been like, no, Luke, I'm not going to do that. That he could have gone, he could have gone and given the idol to Shawnee.

He could have given it to Janine. And then I could have been like, give me your idol. And then one of them, he would be like, I don't. have it and then I would look stupid and then he could play the idol against me at some point so for me I was just like I'm just gonna I'm gonna get rid of this because he's so stressed about it this is going to negatively impact the relationship that I've been developing with him and honestly it just didn't need the I didn't need the advantage I was in such a solid position and it reminded me like when I was in Micronesia

there was the final five I had gone been sent to Exile Island it was me left in the game me Serene Natalie and Amanda and Eric I found an immunity idol on Exile Island

and I left it there if I would have brought it back Natalie would have wanted it yeah and I would have had to lie about it or it would just have caused drama or more chaos and so I just didn't bring it back and it just didn't play in the game it was like didn't make the show because it wasn't it wasn't a part of the game but

I play always social my my survivor game is all about relationships and it's the social game the advantages and the immunities they're all secondary and I'll use them as leverage but my number one strength in survivor is a social game so if any advantage is going to mess up a relationship, I'm not going to keep the advantage. I'm going to get rid of it because I'm not going to hoard those things that we've seen people go out of the game with idols in their pockets. And I'm like, no, that will never be me. Yeah. Well, the idol that you left in Micronesia is such a big part of survivor law. And I do love how it connect back to that. And I think it makes sense. I mean, again, you don't need it. Even if you do the wrong social thing, you might need it. And

then again, you might not be able to play it right. Like you are negating. his power of how he could use the idol creatively by doing this, which is, I think, yeah, made so much sense at the time. I thought it was a great move. What about the final five? It was a little bit cagey around that. We talked in the X interview about how if he plays the idol on Shawnee, you might play it on Surrey and then it might go to the tie and now you're dependent on Shawnee.

Did a part of you think maybe you throw a vote on Luke? Was it worth that? Or were you, like, sure enough? and you could like keep it trucking enough or like was any part of you at that final five a little bit concerned that Luke might do something a little crazy there. I had, I feel like I had such a good read on Luke.

Yeah, you really did. It was perfect. No notes. Yeah, I was like, I know what he's going to do. And we already had talked about going up and playing our idols together for each other. So we had this kind of showy plan. and he likes a showy plan.

And I was like, I'm going to do this showy plan with you. We're going to have the special TV moment together. It's going to be so funny. And I was really... I would have been idling you out of the game. But let's not talk about that. You know, let's do the go in tandem to Jonathan and play them on each other.

That's the TV moment. Wait, what? Say it again. I'm like, you're stopping him from doing the real TV moment, which would have been voting you out. But sure, do this other thing, which is for TV. Sure, that's Joey. Yeah, exactly.

but he also I think had it in his head that he's like I want to sit next to the best I can beat the best I can prove that I'm the best by sitting next to the best so I think truly he wasn't worried about sitting at the end with me and I picked that up from him too and I was like really bigging him up about that and be like I respect you so much and like people are going to respect like the fans are going to love that this is going to be so cool and it's like the biggest players at the end and it's a battle and like the band below yeah You just flatter the ego. Build it up. So I felt like with Luke, I was like, we had such a solid kind of relationship from the auction, from what happened at the auction, from what our relationships were with Surrey and Janine. We were each other's mirrors. We have similar kind of mentalities when it comes like, we're making TV, but we're also playing this game. But we're also like having fun. And yeah, I just like, I think.

also tearing that paper up gave him the sense that he got one over on me to and sort of like he's a bigger player than me. So I was like, oh, God, like, you really got me. Like, you tricked me. So I think with him, I just felt like I was like he's not going to do it. He's not going to, he's not going to give it to Shawnee. It's not happening. But like, if he had, like, that's why I was like, I'm going to play the idol with him.

I would never have. he was like ladies first to go play the idol when jonathan said who's got the idol and like we were both like standing there and he's like ladies first and i was like we'll go together and we walked up together and then i was like okay now we're standing here and we're going to do the thing we said we were going to do and i had really been like laying it on thick all day like we're going to do this together and then we played the idols together because i was like if he's going to play it for shawnee i would just play it for three and then Shawnee would have all the power

and she would vote out me or Luke. I don't know which one she would have chosen at the moment. But he wouldn't have wanted to risk that. I think what you're doing is like the bread and butter of like the brilliance of Survivor, but it might be somewhat harder for audiences to grasp because it's not like playing an idol as like doing the thing.

Like what you're doing is long term manipulation that something is in someone's best interest when it's not. It's reading that they'll do it. which is the most important thing in the game to me. Like, I think there are people who are like, well, poverty got lucky that Luke didn't. It's like no, poverty pushed Luke to do what she wanted and also read perfectly that he was going to do that.

Like, that's completely different from just hoping for the best. And I think that sometimes people don't understand that nuance or that doesn't seem as flashy, but for me, that's like the most brilliant thing. And like, the bluff, again, is like, I don't want to take away from the bluff because I think it's so brilliant in the moment. And it's like, that's a real, like, singular move. But, like, what you were doing through this end game to get people to not turn on you when they just absolutely should have a hundred times over is so impressive to me.

And I really hope people can understand that because I think that you explain it so well and it's so obvious, obviously, to me as well. And in the final travel council, I think that you were so good. How do you think that that went? And what was kind of the narrative of your game that you were trying to give people? And also, I would ask, how did you feel going into that? that your chances were. Oh my God, that final tribal council was longer.

Everything was going to survive, except the season is longer, yeah. Oh my God, it was so different to U.S. Final tribal because we had to prepare a keynote speech. And in the U.S., like we got, we have our breakfast, and then we do some interviews with the producers, and then we can think about whatever. our remarks are going to be to the jury, but we don't sit there and, like, go over, like, all of our moves and tell the whole entire story. So I'm like, oh, my God, my head is spinning

because the game has gone lightning speed. I've done a lot of stuff since day one. How do I condense it into, like, a jury speed? I think my speech was like 45 minutes long. It was so long. It should be. It should be longer. It was a lot of a day. I was like, oh, God, falling asleep. Okay, I'm like, I'm going to wrap it up. You guys, I'm wrapping it up. I'm sorry. I don't know. Yeah. So, yeah, that was crazy. I was just like, uh, that was, that was hard to tell that whole entire story and then open it up to the questions.

I felt good about my chances going in because I had Surrey on the jury. Yeah. And I had Lisa and Cass, I felt like probably would vote for me over Luke. And Janine, like, sitting next to Luke and Janine, I was like, okay, I think I can get at least those three. And then from there, it was a toss up. I was like, I don't know if Kirby's going to be okay. Like, I'm going to tell, like, explain more because I could tell she was so hurt by the blind side. So I was looking forward to being able to explain my side so she could see that it wasn't just like a clear cut, like dagger in the heart where I was just playing her so bad. It was just like, actually was really hard for me to make that choice and I didn't want to do it.

And so I saw her clock that and take it in. And also Sarah and Kirby were so upset with Janine. And then Luke was being very defensive. So I was like, oh, this is good for me. Because I'm like, in a final tribal, you sort of have to sit there and kind of take it. Like you got to sit there and be like, you guys are right. I'm sorry like I

you know these things yeah like I didn't mean to hurt you but it's sort of you just have to I think to do well in a final tribal where you voted these people out and you've beat them and you're sitting where they want to be sitting you have to hold a really open space a very non-defensive

very open very warm space and speak from your heart and be like you like you deserve to be here like tell them that they played hard like compliment the jury always and receive whatever criticism they're saying and just be like okay yeah like i get that and you know i hope that you can respect that that was a game move and i got you because you were a big threat and if you can position it in a way of like self-defense like maybe you'll get their votes and say like you're a big threat how to get you before you got me kind of a

thing and yeah it's it's so it's such a tightro it's a it's a difficult dance to do and I think if somebody is defensive it's just going to backfire and that I think was that hurt Luke because he was defensive in some of his answers and really sort of like justifying his defensiveness rather than being open and, you know, acknowledging like, yeah, I was, you know, I said some things or whatever they were coming at him for. Yeah. I mean, it's good for you to have Surrey on the jury. And I think if you're sitting next to Surrey, I do think your game speaks for itself and you also speak to it very well. But maybe sitting next to Surrey is trickier than Luke and Janine. Did any part of you, I mean, you and Surrey have both spoken about how your relationship

is decades long beyond the game. But did any part of you wonder, like, you know, if Surrey goes out and fire, she's on the jury, you know what I mean? And like, it might have been a better, or was it just, no, I just want to sit here with Surrey and we'll battle it out and one of us will win. Maybe probably you would win. So were you kind of, did you see it as a worst task next to Surrey and were you kind of just happy to wear that if that was the case?

I said it. They actually put it in the edit where I was like, oh, you're going to really make me work for it at that final tribal because you're so good with the jury and you're so good with your relationships. And that's, I knew that was a risk having Surrey in a final three. She's a really good talker. People love her. I mean, you saw Lisa crying. Like, me too. I cried last week. I love her. So, yeah, your friend's walking a street. She was the best. So I knew that it would be a risk for sure going up and sitting next to her but it was a risk I was willing to take and then also I was like I felt like it was my game I just felt like it was destiny it was meant for me I just came in there

with that like sense and I was so committed to reclaiming this victory for myself and I was telling that story over and over again I wasn't like trying to hide it I was like you guys I missed my win in Samoa. That's what I'm here to do. I'm here to win. And it was wild that people kept me in the game, like, knowing that I was so laser focused on that. And I think there's nothing that could have stopped me. And even if I had been sitting next to three, maybe I would have lost some votes to her, but I still was like, I'm, this is my game. So who knows if people would have voted for me or for her? But I had that whole committed sense of like, I am taking this. This is my game. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was so incredible. I loved,

I loved your game, but I love even more hearing you speak about it because it was note perfect and so considered in every way. Like, it was just yours every step of the way. I think that you were maybe at your best, which is such a high bar, when everyone else was like faltering and like reading it wrong and like making the wrong decisions and like the pace was a lot. And you were just like so cool, calm and collected. I think it just shows, yeah, again, decades of being under that pressure and just rising to the occasion in such a phenomenal way. It was such an incredible game. What an honor for me to speak about it with you through the whole game. I hope that people enjoyed this rundown. There was anything else you wanted to share

about your game. I've absolutely loved hearing about it step by step from you. No, I feel like you really got the whole game. Like you're in my brain the entire time, which is that's hard to do too, to read someone's intentions and motivations through an edit. Like, you've nailed it. Thank you. Well, I mean, and I did. And I for it to everyone. And people weren't getting the I don't see the thing.

I'm like, no, this is, it's so good. Like, and I'm really glad that you can explain that as well. And if they don't get it through, you're explaining it in confessional at tribal council and in this podcast, maybe they just don't want to. So at this point, there's so much that they can do. But I've loved this poverty. Like, I'm like at several points throughout this interview while just enjoying the chat. I have to be like, you are talking about you right now. Like, you're doing this like twice in a couple of weeks.

Like, what an honor. it doesn't feel real still and I also wanted to say which I haven't had the chance to you I love that you adopted two cats they're so cute I have I have a two adopted cast as well and I just wanted to also thank you for using your platform to you know showcase adoption and I think that's amazing so you're the coolest person ever like oh I'm going to have to come see you in Australia when I come down there at some point I'm coming to see you I think I'm going to see you in the next couple of months that sounds creepier than I intended if you're going to be at a Survivor event in San Francisco in the next few weeks.

Oh yeah. I will. Oh, my God. Okay. I'll see you there. I'll be there. I'll be five months pregnant, but I'll be waddling along. So it'll be amazing to meet. Thank you. It'll be amazing to meet you. And I can't wait. And I'm so appreciative that you've given us this time to do this interview. And yeah, just what a thrill. But thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, Shannon. Thanks so much. Hope everyone enjoyed this. And I will see you next time. Oh, wait. No. that. I'm defending. Do you want to tell people where to check out your stuff? You have so much to check out. I'm not going to do a double rope, but yeah, I'm nervous. People can follow me on

Instagram at P. Shallow. And I post all the time if I'm doing anything fun there. You'll hear it first on Instagram. And you can buy my book. Nice Girls don't win. Um, where books are sold. Find it online. Everyone go and do that. Thank you so much, Pop. I really appreciate it. Love hearing about your game. And I will see you. in San Francisco in a few weeks. One more thing, actually, that I just remembered. I'm launching my course, how villains are made. It's like the anti-people pleasing.

It's set for us to put you in your power, claim your voice, your authentic strength. I really need that. Online course. You can do it. We'll give you a special deal, friends and family. I've looked at it before, and I'm like, I, because I'm a real people-pleaser. I have to happen to my reputation but it's not like it's not instinctive that's why I have to remind

myself of it so I feel like and I've looked at that before I'm being like I should learn how to do that because yeah it really is something that you can learn it's not because our one of our survival modes is fawn and that's something that we work on in the course is recognizing what fawning is and that's just like going along to get along and being really appeasing and being the one who kind of like calms the situation down as the peacekeeper goes with the flow. That's typically a symptom of the fawn response that you can learn to recognize and stop doing and start aligning your choices with what's true for you. Yeah.

So yeah, you can find that information too on my Instagram. That's in my, the link in my bio is there. And we start that October 1st. Amazing. Well, everyone go check all of that out. I'm going to do the triple wrap now. but again, amazing to talk to you, Phaveni. This was incredible.

I hope everyone enjoyed it, even a fraction, as much as I did. But, all right, thank you all so much, and I will see you next time. Bye. Hey. Millions. Shkily. All the million. Run.

Try to Spurton. It's right. It's right. Try. The adventure of a life.