RHAP: We Know Survivor - Survivor Borneo: Not Just a Pagonging

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Today, Rob Cesternino welcomes Survivor 42's Omar Zaheer onto the podcast to discuss Survivor Borneo's impact on Survivor's legacy. 

The biggest show of the summer is back. Love Island USA Season 7 premieres June 3rd and we will be breaking it all down all season long. Join Kirsten and Scali for the challenges, recoupling and drama. Get the same great Love Island coverage on the brand new We Know Love Island podcast feed. Coming to you live from my apartment, it's Rob has a podcast. And now here's the guy who's ready to go back to where it all began. Rob says, sir, Nino, hello, everybody.

And welcome back to Rob's podcast. We've got such a fun episode here for you today because we're going to be talking about Survivor, the original season now 25 years young here with a great guest, somebody who him and I have so much in common. Let me welcome in my great friend, Omar Zahir. so much in common. Let me welcome in my great friend, Omar Zaheer. Hello, thank you for having me. I am so blessed to be here because we are talking about Survivor Borneo.

Can you believe it premiered 25 years ago this week, basically, like that's actually crazy. Yeah. How old were you? How old was I? So I was like, I was at such a perfect age to get involved with Survivor. So I was in the year 2000.

I was, but was I 20 years old? Oh no, I'm sorry. I was 22 years old at that point. 22. I was 22. I was 22. Damn. I was 22 years old at that point. 22? I was 22. Damn. I was 22 years old in the summer of 2000, summer 2K. And it was formative for me as a young person.

OK, I want to hear about that. Did you watch right from the first? I was nine. Yeah. So did you watch right from the first episode? I watched from episode four. OK, Ramona. And we can talk about all this, but I just, this was, you had been texting about this with me and I said, let's make sure we do this this week to get this out there.

Cause we had all the Survivor 50 stuff came up and that was sort of like top of mind to talk about all that. I don't know if you want to give us any takes on your thoughts on the cast, but we can talk about the Survivor Borneo here today. And we didn't really get to do much to celebrate. Like we sort of like stepped on the actual 25th anniversary of Survivor. But I made an Instagram post. Like it was really a day that ultimately changes my life in this huge, huge way. So on the

night of May 31st, 2000, are you there on night one? So I was not there on day one. I was an episode eight. Yeah, that's when I started. Okay. When Jenna Lewis didn't get her tape. Yeah, full circle. Yeah. Jenna Lewis didn't get her tape. Greg got voted out pretending to cry. That was the night that I got hooked. And then there were all of these other people like Gretchen and Ramona, Joel, I hear these names. I don't know who they are.

So I was excited to go back and watch, but wasn't a day one, but pretty, not as close to you, but pretty close. Yeah. Okay. How did you end up getting involved with the show? Was it a family thing? So I was very opposed to watching the show. I had heard it at school.

I was in grade four and our teacher was talking about it. And honestly, I remember this so vividly. I don't know what the fuck she was talking about because she was like, survivors of show where couples go out in the woods and they have to make a cabin and they buy supplies and they have to last the longest. And that is not at all.

It's not even a show that was invented yet. Not even remotely what the show is. So I was like, I don't know about you, that's stupid. Then my sister who was working at Reitmans, I don't think that's a story anymore. Yes, Javeria? It's a clothing store, yes, yes. She was making money.

She was 16, I believe. And she went to go do her shift at Reitmans and wanted us to record the show because she was watching it and We had to record on VHS back at the time if you recall I recall Yes, I probably still have some survivor VHS is around same same boy. Yeah, and when we have these VHS tapes and you're taping you can't watch another show So I was sitting there watching her show being so annoyed

and I was hooked as soon as Jenna Lewis didn't get that tape, that was crazy. And so I was all in from that moment forward. I think the social dynamics really drew me in. And I think that honestly, living in a household where nobody talked about conflict or about what was annoying, even our extended family. Like I would go to family events, all the aunties would be talking about someone

behind their back and I, nobody would talk to each other. And I didn't know what everybody was doing. That was so irritating to everybody else. So I was always hyper focused on social interactions to try not to be that person they were talking about. And so I think that's what drew me into survivor was like all of these people who are they going to vote out? Why are they going to vote them out? And it was just and the personalities were big. It was just fascinating to me. And that's what drew me in. Yeah. That's so interesting that that's what hooked you as such a young person, because you were only a little bit older than, you know, you were right in between like the age that my sons are now. And first of all, I can't imagine that they would hear about a television show at school,

a YouTube video, perhaps a TikTok, like something inappropriate. But I can't imagine that there would be a TV show that they would be interested enough to watch. And I can't really imagine them like seeking out like a grown up like reality TV show. Right. And at the time, I didn't know what was grown up or not but I knew that everybody was watching it. It was an obsession and all the kids in school were watching it too. So I don't know what else they had no internet or anything like that. So it's limited internet for sure. So alright so you had this idea you wanted to talk about the way the ripples that are felt through

time from Survivor Borneo. And I think that this is a really fascinating concept and I'd love to talk with you a little bit about the things that you pinpointed that you feel like started there and now here we go 47 seasons later at least that we've seen into the Survivor meta. Yeah, and I think that if people think back to Borneo, what is the thing that you think about?

You think about, like from a strategic standpoint at least, everybody says, oh, it's so boring, you can't really get anything from it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They think about the alliance formation, which is one, and two, a pagonging, which is a word that we still use to this day, and it's gonna be relevant even into survivor 50, thanks to Jenna Lewis. So those are the two things that people think about. And those

are very important components of the strategy of Borneo and what came from it. But I think that some of them are important, even the Alliance, for instance, we think of the Tagi 4 and that's it, but there are actually other alliances that formed on this season that people don't talk about and how interesting that that could be. There are other concepts that were really in their infancy. And so I think I want to pay homage to the 16 people that played here, what they kind of contributed and how that's changed over the course of time.

And so I think that we can, it's not going to be superstructure, but we can do whatever we want. And if anything comes to mind, we'll go with it. I'll go with wherever you want. I mean, I have not watched it recently, but I feel like I have a pretty good knowledge base on this. Have you gone back and rewatched Borneo at any point?

Within the last year I did, I was watching all the Survivor seasons in the last year for no particular reason. But I did watch it quite a while ago in the context of I've probably seen 48 seasons since our 47 seasons since I watched Borneo last. But it's one of those things and I feel like you feel this way too. Borneo is still so vivid in my memory. I could direct, we'll pull up some direct quotes from that I haven't even watched since over a year. And so I think that it is something that

is really entrenched in my memory. And I think you really had to be there at the time for it to feel that way. Because people that go back and watch now Sam Phelan calling you out on the podcast, hasn't seen Borneo. He's probably going to go watch and watch it at some point. And it's not going to be that interesting to him because he really had to be there at the time, I feel like. But we have all been birthed through the survivor birth canal through Borneo. That's where we all came out.

Yeah, Borneo is the mud. We started with the mud volcano, and here we are now going through the survivor birth canal into mud, and I love it. Yeah. Do you think that Survivor itself properly recognizes Survivor's first season? I do, because we see the classic Survivor,

the beautiful Survivor 50 artwork is a real throwback, very evocative, goes right back to Borneo. It was very important for them to have a Borneo representative. So I do get it, but I think a lot of the lore is, it was had a very different vibe. The crew was a lot smaller. The show didn't feel as produced as it has become to be. And so I think there was this rawness that will never, was not even replicated in Australia. And it's almost like a little time capsule or a home movie. And I love that.

And I think the interesting thing is that, while there are certain concepts that were present in season one that are present to this day, from a social dynamics and strategy standpoint, the motivation to win, I think, is actually one that's a little bit different. I feel like in the first season of Survivor, people were playing for the adventure and the money primarily. And maybe some people were playing for fame. I feel like those were the three things. But now, based on where it's grown,

there's such a reverence for the title of sole survivor and actually just winning the game that I don't think was present then. And I think that shapes the way people's, we still have hurt feelings, bitterness and angry or sadness or like all of that has existed from the first season. But I think that the reasons people played then and the reasons people play now are different.

And that's why I think more people are less, like more people are willing to be like, it's just a game now than they were back then Yeah I think this is a really great point because I do think that people are chasing the victory on modern-day survivor for sure I think that people want the Accomplishment of all these people came out here and I want to be the person who is victorious But the money that a person could win on Survivor is almost

never talked about. And I think that whenever it does come up, like I think it's sort of like in the case of like it came up around like Jesse in Survivor 43 where it was sort of like you know with a heavy heart he was willing to make a betrayal because he needed to provide for his family. But unless somebody is really talking about what the money, that emotional beat of what the money will do for their family, a single person, an unmarried person,

you almost will never hear about what they would like to do with the money, that being a motivation for them on Survivor in the modern era. Agreed. And I mean, even when I played, I was still kind of in a training program. So I wasn't, I was a full vet, but I wasn't fully,

I wasn't like independent. I was still at a residency in a structured university program. And so I never really had to deal with like real world issues like a mortgage and that shit. So now I feel like it would mean a little bit more, even though I don't have children yet. But like at your time, even a couple years after Borneo, were people chasing the win yet or not really?

Because I feel like that didn't start until around all stars. Were people chasing the win? I think that people in my cast is certainly unique. I think that it was a little bit more, I don't know, because I think about myself and to try to answer that question. And I don't think I ever once thought about what I was going to do with the money, because I never thought I was actually going to win. So I was there, but I'm different. I'm built different. Okay.

You're new era coded. I'm new era coded. I just wanted to come out there and have fun and get invited to survivor parties. That's fair enough. But that's even still a different, I mean, I feel like even that's not as big of a thing now. Like, yes, there are events that Bryce and when events people go to our hop community, but that's not necessarily why people know anybody can get into those. Like, exactly. There were that when I saw them. Yeah. When I went to go play Survivor, there were what?

What's what's 16 times five? What like what is that? 80 people 72. I think 80, right? Oh. Because it was 96. Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. There was only 80 people. I wasn't ever going to meet any of them unless I went on Survivor. Yeah, now 80 people get called for season 50.

Yeah, now we just roll out of bed. They're like, hey, call up 80 people. Yeah, that's crazy. And I think also at the time there was this thought that fame would play a role. I think we saw a lot of that with the season one cast specifically because they were so well known household names. They were in magazines, they were in ads. They were doing all these things. A lot of them moved to LA from what I understand. It's true. People thought they were going to be famous, I think from so I really

think people still think that by, oh, at my Amazon. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I could say like, I think that from the people that were there, like, like Ryan Aiken thought he was going to be famous. Dan Lu thought he was gonna be famous You too of Instagram real the other day hey Dan Lu is still Doing it and it was a great career like in Hollywood. He's done a bunch of stuff He or Alex I think probably thought is it like Jenna and Heidi definitely were there to get famous Right and they did and there to get famous. Right. And they did. And they did.

For a time. Yeah. So yeah, I think a lot of the people, probably half the cast was probably there to be famous. Yeah. And that is not the case anymore. At all. And so I think that there is a shift more towards, yes, the reverence of the show has now, people want to win to win and for the title of Soul Survivor, but that all stems from the title of Soul Survivor,

but that all stems from the nostalgia built by Survivor Borneo. But I think there was a shift, because I don't know if the cast of Borneo was there to be famous. No, oh really? Okay, fair enough. Because the show, they didn't know what it was.

They answered like an ad in the newspaper. I think adventure was the biggest thing for these people. I think adventure, I think that for different people, there was different things. I think like for, you know, Bibi and Rudy maybe, and Gretchen and Greg, like they wanted an adventure. But I think that like Sean Kniff and a couple of these other people,

like I think that they were probably there maybe seeking a little bit more fame, maybe Jervis. And there was like other people. And some people are the money, like Sue. Sue was there to get the money. Yeah, she didn't like care. Yeah, get that bag. Yeah, and like Colleen, we don't even know why she was there. Yeah, I think adventure for Colleen.

She went to like a casting call and her friend wanted to be on the show and then she just said like, she was there like against her will. Yeah, that really sucks. Where do you think that friend is now? I don't know. Or do you think it's like, or could it be like Wendy Jo? She finally got on and then first went off years later.

Wendy Jo and Colleen were like sort of like Colleen rubates. We can only hope. They don't even ask me how old I am. They only ask about my friend Colleen. That's a classic. Yeah, I love, yeah, I agree that I think that the motivation to win was different then, but I think it was just such a fresh adventure. We didn't know what to expect. But I would say even the first vote of Survivor Borneo, if we start off with Sonja and Taghi, it was more complex and nuanced than people give it credit for. I just think the show didn't necessarily know how to tell that story so early so that maybe in confessionals,

they weren't asking the right questions and stuff like that. But with Sonia going home first, you know, she is theoretically the weakest person on that team. She loses the challenge for the team. We've seen so many discussions of do we vote out challenge strength or you know, people we don't like or whatever it may be. But she was voted off in a very tight vote four to three to one. And if we remember back to that episode, who's the first person that really brought up alliances and voting blocks and a strategy? Do you remember vote four to three to one. And if we remembered back to that episode, who's the first person that really brought up alliances and voting blocks and a strategy? Do you remember Rob? Is it Stacy? Yes, it is Stacy Stillman. We should redact that name. We should bleep it

out for the podcast. But Stacy, she's the one that's trying to rally votes against Rudy, someone that she's not vibing with, someone that she wants out, she didn't see the value in, and she's immediately going to all the women to try to get these votes together. And she collects four votes, so she thinks. But what's very interesting is that Sue Hawk, Sue Hawk is the swing vote at Survivors First Ever Tribal Council, and she doesn't even get remembered for that. She's at the center of all of these social dynamics where the rich Rudy, Sean, Dirk side

of things, they want her vote. The women want her vote. And she's saying confessional to us, the chicks think I'm voting one way and I'm not in her little Wisconsin accent. And she's going to vote her own way knowing where all the votes are going. And that is something that we see to this day in modern survivor history where power often conglomerates around one or two people because it's like an additive effect.

Like if you feel good about Rob, somebody else is going to feel good about Rob and everybody's looking to you to make a decision. That was Sue before it was anybody else. And I think that people don't give her enough credit for that. Yeah. It seemed though, like it was from a place of that she did not like Stacey and wanted to not work with Stacey. Kind of, but she still had Stacey believing

that she was gonna vote with her. That's true. And she also was picking the person that she felt was the least valuable for the tribe, which was Sonia. So Sue still kept her options open. If it was strictly, I don't wanna work with Stacey and a very basic thing, then Stacey wouldn't have been blindsided.

This was the first blindside in Survivor history. And I don't think that Sue Hawk specifically gets enough credit. And what I will say as well, and I'll defend it more by the end of this podcast, was Sue Hawk the best strategic player of Survivor Borneo? That's interesting. Possibly. I loved the time that I, I don't have a lot of good things to say about my time at Survivor All-Stars, but I loved getting to spend 12 days with Sue Hawk.

Actually, more than that, because we were at Ponderosa together for a week before the game started. Weren't you guys allowed to talk there, too? Yeah. It was wild. I don't understand. That's crazy. A lot of stuff was going on there. Tell us a good Sue story, then. One wild, you know. I don't understand, that's crazy. Yeah, a lot of stuff was going on there. Tell us a good Sue story then, one we don't know. One that we don't know. She just like was such a contrarian on everything. And I don't remember like what was in the show

and what wasn't where. Like everything Rob said, she's like, oh no, we're not doing that. Like, you know, I think that I think this might have been in the show. Like they were they were like, Rob and Tom were like killing themselves trying to make a fire. That's not gonna work. They tried in Borneo. He's gonna make a lot of smoke. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna make fire. You know, she wouldn't eat any I think what did we have coconut like she wouldn't eat any coconut or she's like,

oh yeah, that's too binding, no way, I'm not gonna do that. Have you ever had the coconut or the rice? What's binding? The rice? You guys can start with rice though. Yeah. So, we got coconut.

We got it eventually. Oh true, I don't know. So maybe she wouldn't eat the rice, I think. But she was like, whenever Rob said, she was like, no, we're not doing that. I don't think so. She just would like we had to boil the water. She's like, I'm just going to drink it like I drink water with beaver poop in it. But do you think when I think of Sue Borneo, Sue and born and all star Sue, I see a very and even before everything bad that happened,

I see a verystar Sue. I see a very, and even before everything bad that happened, I see a very different Sue. Like I see a Sue in this season, Borneo that is trying to win, that is going to, um, yes, she's abrasive. I didn't like her watching it live. I appreciate her now as a character, but she was very not the warm and fuzzies, but she had a mission and a goal and she was playing to win in a way that I don't feel she had that fire in her and all stars. Do you agree or was it just not? Yeah, that's fair because she did not really seem to be trying very hard in Survivor All-Stars. I don't know if she had like a different like appearance fee, but she had also had a lot

of success I think outside of Survivor. I remember I actually met her, I believe, in the Amazon that she was like doing like reporting for TV Guide. So I'm sure she did like a million like appearances and everything. And maybe she was just like in a much more comfortable place in her life at the time that she went to go play on Survivor All-Stars as opposed to, you know, she probably wasn't still driving the truck. Yeah, probably not. At the time that she was on Survivor All-Stars. Yeah. I mean, I kind of would want to drive a truck. That's kind of fun. You think so?

Like you don't talk to anybody for 12 hours a day. I don't know what she was making a year when she went to go play on Borneo, but she probably like was, you know, in the three years that followed, probably, I would imagine made like a couple hundred thousand dollars in appearance fees after the original Survivor Borneo. And she got to be on Dog Eat Dog, like that iconic. I don't even know what that is. You don't know what Dog Eat Dog is?

I'm gonna send you the episode later. What an icon. What like Dog the Bounty Hunter? No, it's hosted by Brooke Burns. It was like a survivor light, Survivor Meets Fear Factor reality show. That was actually a survivor light, survivor meets fear factor. Yeah. Reality show that was actually very good. But she did really well on it.

I think she either won or came in second place. But yeah, I think that Sue had this drive to win and I don't think she's often appreciated. And I think she was a power player even from episode one. The other thing about Sonia who rest in peace, fantastic. Did you ever meet her? I don't, oh yes, I did meet her at the survivor 10 year anniversary party. I think it's a good picture of Sonia, who rest in peace, fantastic. Did you ever meet her? I don't, oh yes, I did meet her at the Survivor 10 year anniversary party.

I think it's a good picture of Sonia. Yeah, very sweet woman from what I can tell, but I never met her obviously. But this concept of tribal strength and whether you keep the, that's a concept that has been present from the very first episode, is still present to this day.

And it's obviously been watered down quite a bit, but I think the new era has brought this sort of back in a way that it had been forgotten about for a while, because now people in the smaller tribes, there's no room to hide. And with these disaster tribes, once you start losing, you keep losing. So I think that the concept of we have to keep the strong tribe strong really was reinvigorated in the new era in a way that it had been forgotten about for a while. But Sonia and the first few seasons, that was really a big part of it. I think your season may have been the first time where they really kind of let, like, let that back a little bit just because it wasn't really all strength based. And unless

you feel differently, I guess Janet was a. Yeah. I mean, certainly like we voted off like one of the strongest guys on the first challenge because it was men versus women. We didn't necessarily need more strong guys. We needed people who were like probably like more not players. Right. Yeah. So that was more of what we needed. But yeah, maybe that's a good point about, you know, in. So for so long that we

had tribes of 10 tribes of nine of like, you could vote out, you didn't have to have the weakest player. You could vote out somebody like tribe strength wasn't necessarily as big of a deal. But in these original tribes of eight, now it's certainly even in tribes of six, it is a bigger focus of the tribes. Yes. And I do think we are gonna see, my bold prediction is that for Survivor 50, there's gonna be two opposing forces with respect to tribal strength. One is, my guess is it's gonna be three tribes,

and the two losing tribes will go to tribal council. So that elevates the importance of challenge victories because you have to avoid tribal council. On the elevates the importance of challenge victories because you have to avoid tribal council. On the other hand, the reason that tribal strength is so important in small tribes in a new person cast is you are playing with six people and you don't know 12 other people. They could all team up on you, come the merge or swap or whatever it may be. So gaining an advantage is very important. However, when you have a returning player season, there's so many cross tribal relationships that I think it does come down more to trust. So I think that

the people, I think both of those will be a factor, but I could see a strong person getting clocked early if they're not trustworthy or they're worried about cross tribal connections. So we'll see. What other things have you seen going back to Survivor Borneo? I think that a big one, there's some stuff with Ramona that I want to talk about, but I think the biggest moment to kind of start things off further is Gretchen's vote off. That was really a fundamental shift in how people viewed the game because before that, people were getting voted out for either being weak, sick, wanting to leave or annoying.

And Gretchen. Male chauvinist pigs. Yes. Classic male chauvinist pig. But Gretchen was somebody that was a, uh, she was a constellation as mad dog would say Gretchen was a star because she was a, um, a leader. Not only that she was a female leader in a group and was so highly respected across the board.

We've seen so many survivor seasons where there's a leader who is not respected, people resent them, they think they're trying to control things, but Gretchen, and especially when a woman tries to lead, generally speaking, it doesn't always go over very well, but Gretchen found a way to lead Pagong in a way that they all loved and respected her.

And she wasn't necessarily, she still spoke her mind and gave her opinions on how the survival aspect was going, but she didn't really wanna play the game per se. But when you looked at who was most deserving, people would think Gretchen, you know, she's a great survivalist, she has a good social game, everybody likes her. But yet when these two tribes come together, who's the first person that the tagging Alliance

targets? It's the leader of the Alliance, which is something that we've seen persist longterm. And it's also the person that people is the glue to the group and Gretchen going home. Yes. She's the glue. Yes. That's, that's where he took his notes. Aren't they both have roots to Tennessee? He never watched the season. Yeah. I guess that's true. But inception, you know, that's how it works. Heard. But yes, but Gretchen getting voted out into four to one to one to one to one to one to one to one

vote iconic. And when she said, it's me, like that was chills down the spine. And that was a fundamental shift of how Survivor is played in everybody's minds. I think there's been a few other votes in the history of the show that have mirrored that, but first I want to get your thoughts on this and then we can discuss some of those. Sure. The Gretchen vote absolutely a huge turning point. I vividly remember where I was when I watched it. I was down in the basement at my mom's house, watching it on a very tiny TV in my old bedroom. And I was like, you know, I didn't have Steven Fishback to talk about after it's like,

like this happened and then I, what am I supposed to do? Like, I'm like, talk to myself about what just happened. Wait, your parents didn't watch? No, nobody else liked it except for me. So I had no like there was a lady in my office that I used to talk about it with like the next day. I was like, well, I got to wait like, you know, 12 hours to talk about this with another human being. Do you remember what your thoughts were as to like why that happened? I just was really shocked that it happened because I think a lot of people

that the consensus was that Gretchen was probably going to win. I mean, she seemed like that she was the hero of the side that everybody liked. Everybody like Pagong. Nobody like Taki. And so you felt like, OK, well, Greg, it's just he's a little too wacky. But Gretchen is like a nice balance. And then when she didn't end up winning, she got voted out. You know, we were as surprised as she was. You know, we didn't really see that it wasn't edited like that.

The Rich's Alliance or the Alliance was like tonight. We're going after Gretchen and, you know, unless she plays her shot in the dark tonight, she's a goner. Like it was a blindside to us who they were going to vote for Do you think that they had the footage and didn't use it for suspense or did they just not know what questions to ask? Or how to tell the story back then it's impossible to know I I suspect that they wanted us to feel the blindside like that everybody else felt wanted us to feel the blind side like that everybody else felt. But I don't know if like, cause I think they probably could have like, uh, you know, giving it to us in a way where Rudy's like, we're going for Gretchen.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this was the first time where they voted out somebody that shouldn't have been voted out quote unquote. And so I think that that is something that was carried forward and the rest like it changed the tenor of the season anybody everybody knew that they weren't safe anymore and that it was a much more cutthroat game than they expected. It's created something that lasted for so long that

the merge is an inflection point in the season that it all like everything happened in the pre-merge all leads up to one Pivotal vote at the merge and that is going to carry through Into far into the show's history and it's something that they've taken from us Yes, agreed and I think that that's a frustration of a lot of the survivor fans That there are a lot of things that are like seminal parts of the show that we love that are important that they've taken and sometimes they give it back to us. But the merge being sort of the big inflection point of the season is something they have taken from us.

Right. I mean, I agree and disagree. I agree in the sense that, well, I disagree in the sense that- Because you had a good Mergetory episode. I did have a good Mergetory episode. There haven't been many since then. Yes, that is true. But I also feel that the Mergetory thing, I think it's actually less to do with the Mergetory structure, to be quite honest, because there's still 13 people voting together. So it is ostensibly, in my opinion, a merge.

So I find this labeling it as not a merge kind in just ingenuous to some extent. But I think the bigger issue is that I don't think this was all roses and peaches because in the early seasons you'll have like, um, you know, Jeff go home, Gretchen go home. Um, and then it's a Pagonging afterwards. Right. So it's like this big moment and then it's just kind of dominoes easy after that, which people don't want to see now either, But in some sense, like when you have such a large group, like there's 10 people here and two groups coming into one. Now we have 13 people and no swaps or stuff like that to really help mingle

people up. So you're coming in, like we came in four within a 12, that's a minority. We have to be a little bit more careful. So people are always going to in such large groups conglomerate around like the Haley. We saw that really start in the Haley Ford era with game changes. I feel like where people are just going to pile on to the easy consensus vote. Yes. Yes. And I feel like that is more the issue than merge because this the the pile on at the merge was happening before the new era. Yeah, that's really starting in the early 30s. And I think that we got a good Joe Angle and blind side in Edge of Extinction. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true.

But, you know, we had before that we had and Jessica Johnson was was pretty close. But the things like Haley Ford really jumped out to me. I really like to talk about season 39, but that was a pretty important merge. Well, it's true. Wend, but that was a pretty important merge road also. That's true. Wendell was a domino or like everybody just piled on to him. Yeah, that was a pile on. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, but Gretchen's vote off also, you look at people like Andrew Savage, who is also like a leader of a strong group. He's the first one targeted. That's why everybody

says, if you're a leader, you're going to be targeted. If you're the glue guy or glue gal, you're going to be targeted. And that persisted for quite a long time. And I think that that, that core tenant of the tall grass is going to get cut was present all the way in season one, which is why I really think the best way to win now and always has been truly has been to be the middle of the pack. But at some point you have to chop the taller blades. Like if you're too much of anything, that's what Kim's strategy was. She doesn't want to be the most loud, the most social, the most strategic, the most physical, just be in the middle of everything. And Gretchen really taught us that lesson, I feel like.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's a really great point about the, and the, all the votes there. I mean, this is, I think stands to to we've never had another vote where seven different players got votes, right? Yeah. I feel like four might have been the next highest, which is crazy. Four on Gretchen and then Colleen, Jervis, Jenna, Richard, Rudy, and Sue all get one vote. Yes. Nobody could. Pagan could not vote all the same, like same way. It's actually crazy. But then the other thing that's important to know about this vote is right after that, the next morning in episode eight, the first episode I ever watched was a meeting of the minds of the Pagong minds. It was Gretchen, Greg, or sorry, Greg, Jervis, Jenna, maybe

Colleen was there, maybe she wasn't. But what did Jervis say? He said something so wise. And I think that Jervis was a very underrated player in Borneo. He said, if Gresham was going to vote for Rudy, we should have just voted for Rudy and then vote our conscience afterwards. Never give them the upper hand. I feel like that went through my head when playing all the time. Never give them the upper hand. Because as Gabby Pasquisi said, hope is not a strategy. You can't hope for the majority to just kind of fall apart on their own terms. If you give them the opportunity to take you out, then you're kind of asking to go home and if they fall apart through their own accord, then you I don't feel like I respect that as just waiting to see what happens. And I think that that

is important to this day where we saw in Survivor 48, you know, the minority group was just kind of turning on each other, hoping that the majority group of like Kyle, Camilla, Eva, Joe, Shaheen would just break apart. And they never did. Like the time to make a move was when there was eight people or nine people left and never give them the advantage over you because then you have to wait. And Jervis, he clocked that very early and I respect that. Yeah. In the Survivor 48 thing, I do think that the double tribal council really worked against

the people on the bottom because it went from, they had the vote at what 13 where they voted out charity and then all of a sudden they lost Sey and Cedric also. And now it's like, okay, now it's 10 and there's like a six person Alliance. It's like, okay, well for the people on the bottom, like now it never cracked. It never like they may have been hoping, but it also like they really lost their footing at the point where they voted out Cedric and they voted out say. Yeah. I feel like the eight was really their inflection point where they could have like forced that tie. But that wasn't the no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. But I think that this is like, that's why again, I so agree with Gabby's assessment of hope is not a strategy. Don't wait. And

sometimes it works out. That's not to say it never does. If you look at Danny and Chris, that wasn't their strategy per se, but maybe a little bit more Danny where she eventually just let Bobby John and Gary go to hope that she can break into the group. You're talking about Danny Boatwright and Chris Doherty. Yes. So they came from behind. I was like, what season were Danny and Chris on? It sounds like an amazing race team.

Yeah. So they came into the minority or they found themselves in minority, but I think the difference is that, well, I'll push back on that myself. Emily flipping with Chris Doherty before the merge, right before they got to the tribal council where Rory got voted out, he had the opportunity to vote out Julie or John Kenny. And he voted out John Kenny, which gave the women, the majority. And he had to hope that Julie and Twyla were telling him the truth and they were not. And so then he found himself in a really shitty situation.

And then yes, he did some really good work to bring himself back in. So sometimes, you know, being at the bottom and trying to work your way and can work, but more often than not, if the majority has the numbers, they're just gonna clock you usually. So I feel like,

that's why I think that Jervis's mine was working ahead of a lot of people on that season. And I think that's why I was really excited to see him come back. It would have been even cooler to see him come back again and see what he could do years later. But Jervis also mastered the social game, I think in a way that nobody else really talks about anymore. And the reason I say that is that, yes, being social, being friendly will always help you. But you can also weaponize that in a way to win Survivor. And that's something that we saw kind of on the screen more classically with Parvati, you know, where she was using her

flirtatious social game to try to win people over and in very intentional manner. But it was happening as early as season one where we saw Jervis get to the merge or even before the merge, he's like, yeah, I'm kinda, I'm not gonna do much work, but they love me and I'm gonna be fine anyways. And after the merge, he's working rich over with the card game.

He's like, this is my strategy is to be likable. And he was using that in a way where Gretchen was very likable, but it wasn't an intentional strategy on her part. So I think that Jervis amplified the social game in a strategic sense. And I would argue social, strategic, or physical, social is the most important by far. And I thought strategy would have been more important going into the game, but having played it, social is by far the most important because if you're not social enough, you won't

get the groundwork to get what you want done. Yeah. You have to have the social game in order to be able to accomplish anything strategically. Yeah, and Jarvis did do a great job. I do think that Greg had the incredible social game too. The thing with Greg was that I feel like that he never at times he would not be interested, but there were stories going back to I don't know if you read the Survivor book of, there was like Mark Burnett's account. But one of the things that, I don't believe that, but one of the things about Greg was that they said that

Greg would flirt with Richard Hatch at the merge. And I don't remember if this was in the show or not, where Richard Hatch kind of like clocked it like, I like this, but I also don't like this. Like that. I see him. I see what he's trying to do. Yeah, they did do that. And I think the reason that Greg wasn't on my radar for this was mostly because he didn't care. It seems like he didn't care to play the game or win. But you're right. There are these moments where he's weaponizing the social game in a way

that was never done. Again, people like Colleen, people like Gretchen, they're very likable, but they weren't doing that to win. And I think- Yeah, Colleen was like a Shani, like where it was like, she's like sort of like friendly to like the people she likes. Like Shani from Australian Survivor? Yes. Icon.

Yeah, Colleen, I feel like was just so likable across the board, but even she, she started out not really wanting to play the game per se. And she was like, we should vote our conscious and stuff like that. But by the end, like she had a little bit of a killer instinct and trying to get people to come over to her side.

She knew she had to approach Kelly. She knew she understood the social dynamics of the taggy group and how Kelly was kind of falling outside of that and trying to pull her in. And she was part of the coup that tried to send Richard home on his birthday, which was another first almost, um, iconic power shift in survivor history. And in hindsight, maybe it's great. It didn't happen because it kind of like in Mike White's terms edged us so that we would enjoy it later on when it actually happened

in season four, but Jervis Colleen and, um, call, uh, Jervis Colleen and Jenna really almost flipped the strategy or the power hierarchy on his head. And I don't think they get enough credit for at least trying. Yeah. Well, ultimately they get undone by the fricking alphabet strategy, right? Jeff turns over the vote and it's Sean's vote and it's like, Jay for Jenna. Yeah, yeah. That was actually, how did he even know to say that? That was crazy. I mean, look, Jeff had his moments in season one.

Yeah, he did. And the way that he would openly grill the Toggi four about their alliance was- And they lied to him. They lied to Jeff and he got mad. See, that's baller Sue though though when Sue's getting interrogated by Jeff and she's like, I don't give a fuck. I'm not going to give this away. That's a Sue with a killer instinct that I wish we saw in all starts. And Rich got like pissy about it. He's like, Oh, freaking tricky Jeff. He wants to ask to ask questions like we're not going to give

him what he wants to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Like the trust was broken in survivor Borneo where I think that Jeff talks about like his role in like why he wanted to come to survivor. And I think he felt like, Hey, um, I love people. Like I've been to therapy. Like he, like when he talks about his pitch of like how he sold Mark Burnett on this.

And I think he felt like that, okay, well at tribal council, everything is going to be cards up. We're going to talk about what's really going on. And I think it was a surprise that he was going to ask some no pun intended probing questions, but the players were not going to necessarily be cards up with him. Yeah, but that's, that's interesting that that dynamic was at play in season frickin' one, because it's still there now. I remember we had to give Jeff an answer that was good enough that he was satisfied from a perspective of not giving him nothing, because at the end of the day, it is a television show.

But it didn't give away what was going on in the game. And I think that that's... And we've heard stories where he would yell at Danny or Lydia, or not our Lydia. Or he was yelling at Butch? Bush Lockley? Why? That's not fair because Butch wouldn't know. Butch was not great on the spot.

But it is interesting, you know, in 48 seasons of the show, like, nobody really has been able to say to Jeff, like, you know, I plead the fifth. I choose not to answer that question. No. The game is afoot. The game is afoot. I should say.

You know, it doesn't really happen. And so it is an interesting part of the game where you're not really under an obligation in the rules to say what you're thinking. But if you don't answer Jeff's question to a level that is satisfactory to him, like he won't let it go. Like he'll just continue to cross examine. Yeah, we saw that happen early in our tribal councils at the merge as well with some people

that I will rename nameless. But it's interesting, because I think the way to kind of get around that now is Jeff's made it kind of easy. He's like that parent that you can easily distract. Like he just wants an analogy. It doesn't even have to make sense. You know, you can just give him anything like that,

he'll gag for it. So it doesn't matter. So I think that there is a way to get around it now, but the audience hates it. And that's why I think Tribal Council has been not great. Um, some of them in the more recent seasons, especially Survivor 46, which was unhinged, have been better, but there was a long period of time where it was just, you could just skip right over it. And that's why I like the early seasons too, because they really did yada yada tribal council a lot. It was short. Very short.

That was short. So basically, like the way that the show is broken up now is that we, like the average episode of Survivor is, you know, you have a camp life and then there's the 90 minute episode that I think it's probably all thrown off. But like, you know, that for the longest time, it's like camp life, then go to commercial reward challenge, then go to commercial players

are enjoying their reward and then coming back from a reward and getting ready for immunity challenge. Then we'd come back immunity challenge, and then we'd have one segment of like scramble and then go to travel council. But now like the Tribal Council is its own segment. We go to commercial and then come back and then the full segment is Tribal Council. And do you, which which do you prefer? I don't mind a long Tribal Council if there's stuff going on there. The issue is a lot of times that it's a whole bunch of nothing. We could skip it. Yes. I think they should let go of the formulaic aspect,

like you said, and just go with what's happening in the episode. And so if there's a nothing burger tribal council, then just give us a short segment and get it over with. And if there's more stuff, like I don't want them to sacrifice stuff at camp for a tribal council that's boring. So I think if they are not as formulaic,

I mean the 90 minutes obviously helps to get rid of that. But if something, if tribal council is really crazy, like Edge of Extinction, then go there early. Like, give us the good stuff. That's what I want to see. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like Borneo was peak. Let's just yada yada this boring stuff and get to the the good. Yeah, they had no format that they were sticking to. They were just giving you what was good.

They were putting as much stuff as they couldn't do the episode. Yeah, exactly. And I also want to touch on Ramona, but I want to touch more on the Taki 4 specifically, but I also want to touch on Ramona a little bit. Because I think it's interesting that she got clocked very, she got sick early, she was not fitting in very well. And she had interesting moments where she reflected on diversity. She was bringing up the fact that she hadn't had any white friends

and it didn't really get verbalized a lot on the show how she, I guess, kind of got voted out in terms of not fitting in very well. They brought it up a little bit, but I think it is an interesting thing to point out that, yes, like this was the first example where there was 14 white people and two black people. Fortunately, they got put on the same tribe and it's not a matter of overt racism or anything like that. It's just people gravitate to people that they can relate to. And Ramona had less

ways to relate to other people than they had to each other. And early on, especially in Survivor, when you are looking at, you know, you could lose your dream, lose a million dollars, or lose the experience. Sometimes it's harder to see somebody that looks like you or is like you get voted out very early because you could see yourself in them. And so a lot of times it's easier to pick somebody

who is on the outs, or if something goes wrong for that person, it's like if Ramona gets sick, you know, it's like, Oh, well, she's sick. But if it's somebody that you relate to, you might be like, Oh, well, let's give them a chance, you know, and I think that it's not always it most often is not overtly discriminatory or intentional. I think it's a lot of unconscious stuff. And I think that's something that Ramona has expressed since the season. And I think that we saw a good example of that early and that's why I really like where we've come from.

This is where we came from. And now we're in an era where there is so much more diversity which I think is a good thing because people will find things to relate to other people that goes beyond superficialities. Like you have to, if you get a majority in a tribe of six you have to relate to some people that are not like you. And I think that that is, there's beauty to that. And it doesn't have to be race. There could be any reason that somebody like Boston

Robb said it once he's like, I don't care if they bond over. What did he say? He said that he's like, I don't care if they bond over like religion or like they love like the same like Oreo cookies or something like that. Yes, exactly. If they love the same Taco Bell order, like whatever it is that bonds you, bonds you. And so I like, I think that the- Like I'm religious. Maybe that's Rudy who said I'm religious in everything. Yes, if I need toilet paper. Yeah. So I think that this is a great thing that we've had.

It's a little bit disappointing to see 50 not be completely 50-50, but at the same time, I think that this Ramona was like kind of a pioneer for that sort of thing and kind of expressing that. And it's come a long way since then. And I think that that's a good thing. Yeah. Ramona was so cool. I got to meet her the summer after I went to go play on Survivor. I went to a charity event. And I sat next to her on the play.

And I didn't have all the Survivor Borneo players I had a reference for. But I didn't have a connection to Ramona as a TV character. Because I only saw her on that one episode when I tuned in for the first time but she was just such a charismatic personality and You know, I've gotten to see her a few times since then and she is just like such a bright light Ramona is really fun Yeah, I can see I mean I thought it came across even when she was sick

so I would have I think she would have been actually kind of a Maybe it wouldn't have fit in, maybe it would have fit in with this 50 cast that was put together. I think it would have been kind of cool to see her get a second chance at some point, whether it was now or before. And I think it's also interesting that, you know, a lot of times, you know,

a lot of times survivor from very early on, even as early as the first season where they're talking about, you know, inter-race season where they're talking about, um, you know, inter race relationships, they're talking about homosexuality, they're talking about, um, children out of wedlock, they're talking about all of these things that at the time were very, um, you know, quote unquote controversial issues, um, or things that were not accepted by society. And that's the interesting thing that people are

saying nowadays is like, Oh, survivor is we don't need to go there. Let's just get back to the olden days. But this was present since the early days, you know, like, it's all about, it's a social game where social issues will always come up. And I think that we should embrace that and also realize it was like then that it was like that back then as well. And that's for a reason, you know? Yeah. It's such a fine line because I think that in the ways that it is dealt with now on the show,

I do feel like that it's dealt with in a much more responsible way in survivor modern times. And I think that they've taken a lot of care to try to make sure that they are dealing with every sensitive subject in a very like careful, tactful way. But like as a consumer, like sometimes like it is like a little bit more engaging to see, you know, the real interaction play out. Now, a lot of times, I think in the old days, that they would like their intentions was, oh, let's get a gay person and a person who doesn't really like gay people on the same tribe. And, and then they were sort of like hoping for a conflict there. But what

was beautiful was that it turned out to actually be this incredible friendship, but we got to see that play out. Right, right. And I think And I think that the better times where this happens, where these social issues come up are the more organic forms, rather than the ones that seem a bit shoehorned in. And that was like that more so in the early stages of the new era, but I think that they really come around to make it more integrated naturally. And I'll say also just to give the show props that I feel like that the Joe and Eva interaction in this season, like I think did end up being kind of like one of those organic moments where it wasn't like all about, you know, Joe and Eva that was like told primarily through exposition and backstory.

Like we actually saw something like playing out in the real time that we were all like a witness to. So I think that that was probably maybe why it was so powerful was because we actually got to see it as opposed to them telling us. Yeah, I agree. And another little thing that I want to talk about Sue and the talking for, but one little side note that's not that strategically important, but was kind of interesting is that BB was the first person to ever try to quit the show and manufacture his own exit.

But we have seen this happen a few times since then. It doesn't always go over very straightforwardly. You saw it firsthand in the Amazon with Shana where somebody wants to kind of leave. Do you let them go or do you not? We saw with Austin, half the cast of Palau, and even as recently as Hannah and Sean from 45. So what's your take on these situations? Do you find them interesting or not? Because I actually find them interesting. Yeah, I think it's interesting when somebody is like not willing to quit the show

and is asking people to like, hey, vote me out. And so I think that it's a little bit of a dangerous game because they could ultimately just walk away at a certain point. I would say in the case of Shawna, I would say that she did not know that that was an option. I think that you could just like, Oh, I could just say I'm leaving. And then that's it. I'm gone. Like I think that they were so concerned with like, okay, we have 16 people and 13 episodes. Like you cannot do, you cannot do they were so concerned with like, okay, we have 16 people and 13 episodes Like you cannot do you cannot do that now. It's like, okay somebody quit. We'll figure it out

Whatever and there's not as much pressure people have done it before But I think that in the case of Shawna like she didn't want to be like the first person to ever quit the show So she was thinking about it, but it was interesting that the women said no, I don't think so And would and request did you guys talk about that when you came together or not? Yeah, we talked about it a lot. And then ultimately, then Sean wanted to stay and then we voted her out. Yeah, that's maybe that's the strategy that people should think of for the upcoming seasons is pretending to want to quit.

Do you imagine somebody quits on Survivor 50? should think of for the the upcoming seasons is pretending to want to quit. But don't actually quit. Can you imagine somebody quits on Survivor 50? You know what actually should I say my hot take right now here? Yeah. Non-zero chance Q quits. Wow. Yeah especially if he knows he's going home. If he knows he's going home I could see it.

I'm actually pretty high on Q in season 50. I think he's gonna be great TV no matter what happens. I don't know him at all. I think he's going to be great TV, but I think he has upside in that. Like, nobody thought Tony would win winners at war. Like, I think that people are like, we'll deal with him later. He's a good distraction. Let him do his chaos while nobody's thinking about me, while they're thinking about Q.

And I think that works like so much to his advantage. Interesting. I could see it going either way. I could see a world in which he quits. But you know what? The great thing about a hot take is that if it doesn't happen, nobody's going to care. And if it does happen, you look like a genius. But there's also a world where if you remember Game Changer Sierra,

nobody wanted to say a name. Q is going to say a name. But is he going to get voted out for it or will he get what he wants? Could go either way. I don either way. We'll see. Whether it's a family member, friend, or furry companion joining your summer road trip, enjoy the peace of mind that comes with Volvo's legendary safety. During Volvo Discover Days, enjoy limited time savings as you make plans to cruise through Muscogee or down Toronto's bustling streets. From now until June 30th, lease a 2025 Volvo XC60 from 1.74% and save up to $4,000.

Condition supply. Visit your GTA Volvo retailer or go to volvocars.ca for full details. Omar, what else is on your list? Okay. The last thing that I wanted to kind of cover in more depth is the taggy for the nuances of that and between all four players and making a case for Sue. You know what? I don't want to make it seem like I'm shitting on Richard's game, but I think that because

he obviously played a very good game and I truly think if anybody but Richard won the first season, it would not be what it is today. I agree. Because it was so important for the quote unquote villain who played the strategic game winning to shape how everybody played afterwards. Otherwise it would have been like a morality contest and that's boring.

Yeah. But Sue played a better game in some ways in my opinion. Yeah. It's interesting. What if Sue had won the game? Because now, okay, Sue has a better game in some ways, in my opinion. Yeah. It's interesting. What if Sue had won the game? Because now, okay, Sue has won the game and the viral moment that came out of, for as viral as a thing could have gotten in the year 2000, comes in the final travel council of Sue tongue lashing, of the snakes and rats speech,

that do you think Survivor is what it is without that moment happening that night? No, I don't think so. It was incredibly iconic. I think that plus Richard winning really sealed the deal on this show being a phenomenon. Yeah. I'm trying to even imagine what the show looks like.

Sue Hawk has won the first season. So we have at the final four, it's a two-two tie and Kelly ends up flipping her vote and voting out Sue. And that's really, you know, the, the final straw for Sue. They had been, her and Kelly had been fighting. And so let's just say, okay, Kelly goes the other way. She flips her vote and votes out Rich. And now Sue, Kelly, and Rudy go to the final three. Kelly wins the final three immunity challenge and takes it. I mean, it's not hard to imagine.

Does Sue beat Kelly in the final two? I think so. I think that Sue gets Sean. Sue gets Richard, Sue gets Rudy. But does she get a fourth? I don't know if she's gonna get Greg's vote. I think I don't think- Richard got Greg's vote. Richard got Greg's vote. I think it's possible that Greg would vote for Sue over Kelly because I think the thing is Pagong did not really like Kelly that much because she was that person that was the Monica Culpepper, the wishy washy,

I will, maybe I'll switch with you, but maybe I won't. And I don't think that they respected that. Like Colleen, Jervis voted for Kelly, you know, almost strictly because of the speech that Sue gave, which would not be present. That speech was foul. Yeah. It was a bad taste in my mouth. That's not how they do it in fact. Where I come from, they call that a sore loser. That had nothing to do with Kelly. And then Colleen, she didn't really like the wishy washy

and she was ready to vote for Rich. And if there's anything that Sue isn't, it's wishy washy. So I think that she can swing one of those votes. Probably not Jenna, but one of the other three, I do think, and I think that Sue wins. And I think that it is still a moment, because we have to remember before Richard won, before the rats and snakes speech happened,

the finale still received 51 million viewers. That's pretty crazy. So would there be a season two? Yes. Certainly, it was announced that night. Yeah, would it be a season two? Yes. Certainly. It was announced that night. Yeah. Would it be a, I think it's possible Sue, the show could have survived Sue winning, but I don't think it would have been as iconic. I think Richard winning, but also Sue doing her part that night, I think is really what the survivor gods had intended. Yeah, I agree. And my reason to believe that I asked the island gods to do what they've always done and for rich to win the game and for me and to be a monster for me to lay into

Kelly Wigglesworth and who knew she would deserve it. You know what, Kelly, that brought you back for Cambodia. So you should be thankful. And actually, maybe that was the worst thing that could have happened to us because we had to watch that in Cambodia. Do nothing, you know? Yeah. Do you think that there's going to be on the Survivor 50 cast, the Kelly Wigglesworth memorial, go ahead girl, give us nothing person? I think that it would have been Elizabeth. It would have been. And you know, I think that at the time we were universally cheered that Kelly Wigglesworth

was coming back for Survivor Cambodia. Yes, we did. We did drop the three, keep the one. They didn't say that then, but they could have. Yeah, yeah, they should have. But anyways, I think that Sue, I'm going to make my case for Sue being the superior strategic player of the season. Not only was she the center of all the taggy dynamics early, everybody was clamoring for her vote, but post-merge,

she created this Alliance. She's in an Alliance of four within that group. She has a side deal with Richard. She has a side deal with Kelly, and she's planning to burn rich maybe to her detriment, but she knows what she's doing. She feels like she would rather burn rich, maybe to her detriment, but she knows what she's doing. She feels like she would rather burn rich and go to Kelly. But both of them are clamoring for her loyalty. Richard at that point does not have enough to deal with Rudy. He is flying by the seat of Sue and that being his final two partners. So he has no idea for the majority of the game where Sue's going and Sue has his number. It's only when Sue's

relationship with Kelly fell apart because of what she was doing that Sue exposed this plan and Richard was able to identify what was happening and form a counter plan. But that was completely like he was under her spell for the longest time and she had it all set up to be in the finale with the most agency and power. And I don't think she gets enough credit for that to have sub-alliances within the Alliance is a strategy that Sue Hawk invented, period. You know, I've always said that whoever has, like,

the tightest, biggest group is the person that's going to come out on top, and often it ends up being two. Sometimes it can be a three. Kelly and Sue had that for the majority of Borneo. But there's this one moment When they get into a fight, and I don't even remember what the for the camera isn't even on them We like pick it up like mid fight, and I don't know if it's like that they start fighting over that

Kelly has gotten too close with the Tagi people or the Pagong people. And so I don't even know. But if they could avoid that fight, one of them is going to win the game. Agreed. 100 percent, 100 percent. And I don't think that has anything to do with Richard. Like he yes, he was he the mastermind and the architect. Perhaps Sue, Sue, I think was right there with him. And she had the upper hand.

So I don't see why we have forgotten. Like Richard. I feel like they bring Richard in. Yes, exactly. They bring him in as number three. And then Rudy is the fourth person that they get brought in. Reluctantly, yeah, because he first didn't want to do it.

Yeah. And Rich kind of bonds with Rudy because he sees that Kelly and Sue have a thing. And Sue Hawk really looked at Kelly Wigglesworth. I think there's a scene where she talks about, yeah, she had like a very close friend that passed away. And she really looked at Kelly like that person. Yeah, remember on the beach

where they were holding hands, it was so sweet. Maybe you don't. And look, I think that Sue Hawk is somebody who, and I am very much a amateur Psychologist but as we saw within Survivor All-Stars, you know, I think that she is somebody who has had Trauma trauma. Yes, and I think that she really loved hard with Kelly Wigglesworth and when she felt like betrayal and felt like that she was wronged like there was a big well of emotions that came out.

And do you think it was a real betrayal or not? Because I think it was a little wishy-washy and a little bit... I think it was blown out of proportion. Yes a little bit so but also I get why Sue would be angry because she is trying to do the same thing as they are, but not take the same type of heat from the Pagong group. But I think that Kelly was still loyal to Sue all the way to the end. Yeah.

And so. Look, they were like the young, Kelly was the 22 year old rafting persona queen. Yeah. And got stomped on on national television by some guy who can't even swim. Yeah, I felt I was embarrassed for you that day. You sucked that day.

You sucked. Yeah. And the other people were like Jenna and Colleen were like her peers. And Sue Hawk was like in her 30s and like, you know, as somebody who was like hanging out with Rudy and Tina at in Ponderosa, like as you wish that there were some young people around. Wait, this is a side note, but do you remember Rudy was like, I don't know what's going on with them with respect to Kelly, Colleen and Jenna. I thought about lesbianism, but they're not that smart.

There's a reason that it's funny. I remember he said like, yeah, because they're wearing like capes. He's like, I don't know what's going on with them. But they remind they might be lesbianism. But they're not that. Okay. So funny. But I don't think that Kelly was malicious. I get why she's trying to hang out with these younger people. I also get why she's low key trying to have her cake and eat it too. But ultimately, I don't think she was ever going turn on Sue and I think that Sue would have won. But have I sold you on the fact that maybe Sue

was the superior player of Survivor? I don't think it was a hard sell. I definitely think, you know, I think that Richard was very happy to take credit for everything. I think he capitalized on their conflict perfectly. And he was thinking at a level that most of the other cast

was not, but I think that Sue really had the game on lock and she kind of lost it for herself. Yeah, and then maybe Richard was maybe thinking about things on a level that maybe Sue wasn't in terms of like television and stuff like that and how to capitalize off of the show. And so I don't want to take anything away from him, but I do think that Sue, you could definitely make the case that she was doing more of the heavy lifting.

Yes. But I think they still both are like obviously incredible players. And was an enforcer in the Alliance, which was an important person to have. Yes. I think that Richard and Sue were obviously the superior players of Tagi. I think on Pagong, Jervis had the most strategic capability and also if Colleen and Greg wanted to play, they were probably right in there too. Jenna Lewis is interesting. We haven't talked about her at all

because she's coming up for 50 and that's exciting. Well, I was gonna ask you the question of, okay, if you could drop one of the players from Borneo into the new era, who is able to make that adjustment the best? And is the answer Jenna Lewis? Well, in what context? Is this in on to a survivor 50 or are they have never played before and they're getting put on?

Okay, I guess let's try to answer both things. So let's say like, okay, we have now gone back in time and grabbed somebody from the original cast and then we've like taken them through time but we've also like they have knowledge of the last 25 years of human culture and now we are going to make them player in Survivor 49. And they did not play before. They have not played before. Then I think if we are going forward in time, I actually think that somebody like Colleen

would actually excel quite a bit if she's aware of the show and didn't have the baggage associated with it. Because Colleen's final words, what were they Rob? Be nice, play fair. That was her final words to her tribe. But in her actual final words, she said, I think if I played in 10 years or something like that, I could have won. She said, I'm going to say it because I don't know if it's true, but I, I could have won. And she said, I'm going to say it because I don't

know if it's true, but I think I could have won. And I think that that is true because she had the ingredients to win, but she didn't have the killer instinct. I also think Jervis is a good pick though. I would go with one of those two. Yeah. I'm trying to think of like, if I could imagine one of them. Greg, it would be so interesting in any era to come back and play. I don't think, yeah, this is a hard question to answer. It might be- Ramona also. Yeah, it could be Jenna Lewis.

See, I'll tell you why I think it's not Jenna Lewis. Well, it's hard to say, because I think in the context of 50, she'll do fine. I think that Jenna Lewis is, I actually think she's a very good pick. A lot of people have their issues with the 50 cast. In my opinion, Jenna Lewis is not one of them. I think you have to go back to season one.

I think you have to pick somebody from that era. Ramona would be a good pick, but she was voted off very early. So then we have to look at these post-mergers. Obviously there's reasons not to pick many of the Taki four. Then we are left with Pagong people. Gretchen is probably too old now, but I think that she would be interesting,

but also didn't have the... The last interview I heard from Gretchen might've been your podcast, Rob. Yeah, she did talk with T-Bird. And she said that she would play differently now because it's a game and it's not a, well, maybe you don't recall this interview. She said she wouldn't. I don't remember every single thing anybody ever said on the podcast. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. But maybe you should. But she said that she, you know, now that she knows it's a game and

it's not like it was, and she would play differently. And I think she was talking about in the context of blood versus water or something with her son. Um, but I think that she's too old now. Then we have that leaves us with Greg, Jenna, Jervis, Colleen. Colleen is obviously not going to do it. I really wanted Greg though. I wanted, if I could pick a magic wand, I would pick Greg or Colleen, but I don't think the juice would be worth the squeeze in some ways.

I don't think that Colleen would be anything interesting on the show. But it would be cool at least to see her. But I do think that Greg, there is the potential because he had flashes at times that what he could do. I just don't think he would ever like he didn't like Survivor in the first season. Yes, really not going gonna like it now. Yeah, that's why I think for the nostalgia factor, I would pick Colleen or Greg,

even though I really think that even both of them, even Greg, I don't think would bring that much to the show. Now it would be a lot like Kelly Wigglesworth, but in a cast of 24, it's fine if one person's just being there. Them being there is kind of cool enough. So I think the best pick from a TV perspective is Jervis or Jenna. And we haven't seen Jenna in a longer period of time. And I think that Jenna keeps up with the show.

She was hyper strategic. She's a big personality. I think the thing that will hold her back from ever really winning is she is considered annoying by many people that she plays with and she doesn't her strategic gate, her social game could work, use work in that way, but she is very strategic. I don't know what she's like now, but remember how Greg voted for her like four times because he was annoyed by her. Yeah.

I think that dropping the season one Jenna Lewis into season 49, I don't know how that would necessarily go, but I think that the season 50 Jenna Lewis who has like lived a life life I think is a hardened Jenna Lewis and different from the one that we saw in season one more akin to what we saw in season eight I think she's gonna come in like shot out of a cannon I don't think that she will win but I would like be interested to see if there's gonna be a person who is going to not mind

being a villain and like putting some like pelts on the wall of like taking out your fan favorites. I think she may well be that person and won't mind. And I'm excited for that to be honest. Like I really think that actually objectively speaking. That's your type of person. Yes, I think that she's actually the best pick of this group to go on 50. Because I think she's the most ready and willing to play.

And it's interesting even between season 1 and season 8, she was a completely different person from what we saw. Like season 1 was like this very like sweetheart type role. And then season 8 is like, it was like a demon was unleashed. And it was fun to watch. But do you think that her social game will be an issue? Or is she different? And then season eight is like, it was like a demon was unleashed and it was fun to watch. But do you think that her social game will be an issue or is she different? Like, like, I thought she was entertaining on the show, but it was very clear that she

had a lot of personality. I'm sure she can turn it on. She is a very successful realtor and you know, I'm friends with her on Facebook and I see she's always posting about like, she's maybe that's a way that she could bond with Q. So if she is like selling houses, she obviously has to have a good social game. But I do think that she has a short amount of patience for, she doesn't suffer fools. And so like when coach is around, I don't know if that's necessarily going be somebody that like I think that while Greg might say she's annoying I think that she may also think that there are other people who are annoying right?

I think that she my my gut check she's gonna make the finale okay Would be exciting yeah, I'm excited about it I like I said people have their issues with this cast Jenna in, in my opinion, not one of them. I'm excited to see it. Okay. Anything else from Survivor Borneo that you wanna highlight as we look back at some of the things that they got it started and we're still knowin'? Well, I think the emotional, the only other thing I had to say,

I think in general we have to celebrate all 16 of these people for what they did for all of us and that we love the show that we still talk about 25 years later, which is crazy. I didn't imagine nine year old me watching these people run around whatever even be on the show. And so let alone talking about it 25 years later. So for them, we have to thank that. Thank them for that. I think that Kelly's emotional journey on the show was actually very interesting in season one of like the morality struggle of what's okay, what's not you can really see her going through it. And again, that

is something that sometimes plays out to this day throughout the course of history of what's okay, what's crossing the line, what's not, what's not crossing the line. And it's because of its core survivors, a very social game that is based on human, real human emotions in the context of a game. And so I think it is very interesting to see that play out. And these were the pioneers and we see a lot of recurring themes that have occurred since then. And so thank you to them and thank you to you for creating this platform where we can talk about it because when I was watching the show, I was watching the show alone as well. Like my family watched it, but they're not hyper strategic people and then they stopped watching it

And I kept watching it The only people I could ever interact with was the teacher who thought they were building a log cabin. Yes, exactly that dumb bitch she didn't know what was out and so The only people that I had to interact on a parasocial level about survivor was with your podcast So thank you. Yeah, why it wasn't you start the podcast for like 10 more years? I know, but you really kept it going. I didn't keep it going. Yeah. Isn't it crazy that there's been Rob is a podcast for like 60% of Survivor history now?

Yeah, over half. That's like over half of it. Crazy. Yeah. And who was your first guest? Yao Man? Was that who it was? It was well, besides the first lady of podcasting, it was Johnny Fairplay. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay.

All right. Omer, anything else you want to tell people to check out? Anything coming up? This podcast. Yeah, check out this podcast. I did a Genius Game podcast with Zach. Yes, how was that? And Cory.

That was fun. Genius Game was interesting. I had never heard of it before and Zach told me to watch it. And I was like, oh. You just jumped in and did you just watch the episodes prior to it? I watched this season, but I never watched the other.

Yeah, were you into it? Did you like it? I liked it, yeah. I think that there was some issues with like how the cast played the games where it was like kind of predictable, but I thought the concept in general was good and I would. I don't regret watching it and I would watch another season.

OK, there you go. All right. Well, Omer, this was incredible. I'm sure that for a lot of people, you scratched a nostalgic itch that people have had this month. This was hard for us to figure out, like what to do in terms of like it was the Survivor 25th anniversary and how much do we want to celebrate season one versus how much do we want to celebrate the entire show and then we had Survivor 50 all coming up what we I'm glad that we did something special about Survivor Borneo so thank you for coming up with this idea the other big

thing we have going on this month is that we have the top 25 moments in Survivor history, which I might you pop up on that at some point? Me? Yeah. I don't I don't think so. But OK, we'll see. All right. We'll see. Mike Bloom, how do you get me? Hey, countdown. And this is going to be me getting voted off.

I don't know. I don't want to hear that. All right. Well, you got it started this past Wednesday night. So check that out. And so go ahead and check out Wednesdays on RHAP, where we're counting down the top 25 moments in Survivor history. This Wednesday, we will count down moments 20 through 16.

And then moments, the moments and the moments. And then also we're going to have some more Survivor 50 previews coming up this month as we are working on doing some preview podcasts about all the Survivor 50 cast as we are waiting here. Well, we're going to be talking about them. Oh, interesting. Can't wait. Check that out. Okay. So make sure you don't miss any of it right here on RHAP. Make sure you subscribe.

We'd love to read your comments. Thank you for listening. Take care of a good one. Bye.