RHAP: We Know Survivor - Survivor Global: Archetypes, Edits and Legacy | S47 Finale with Jacques Burger

Episode Date: December 21, 2024

Survivor Global host Shannon Guss talks to Survivor South Africa's Jacques Burger about the finale of Survivor 47, looking back at the whole season, the winning and finalists' game, the edit, Final Tribal Council and a historic Chissy.

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temperatures and warm porter hospitality on your way there all porter fares include beer wine and snacks and free fast streaming wi-fi on planes with no middle seats and your tampa bay vacation includes good times relaxation and great gulf coast weather visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy Enjoy economy. Hello everyone and welcome to RHAP's coverage for Survivor Global for the finale of Survivor 47. Rachel won. Rachel got me the draft win which I'm very excited about wearing my tiara for the people that aren't on video. I've been wearing it since she won. It's way too tight for my head but still making it work. And I have a great guest to talk about this episode and the season at large with. He's someone I always love to talk about Survivor and the season at large with he's someone I always love to talk about Survivor with Survivor South Africa it is the great Jacques Berger Jacques

thank you for being here hi Shannon it's great being here um congratulations on your win on your Tihara I saw your your Instagram reel it's really a stellar one um did the people necessarily not look at you weird like a woman running through the streets where they are being phoned uh by i'm assuming it's for your husband uh yes yeah yeah well for those who haven't seen the video i put out it was me just celebrating you can see it on my instagram or twitter whatever blue sky um yeah and so we did we filmed some of that like firstly i did this before rachel won i was really confident she was gonna win win. So the most impressive thing Rachel did in an impressive game was getting past my enormous jinx.

And yeah, the stuff that was in public, like at the grocery store, we hated that. Peter hated that. I hated that. I had the crown on that I'd like hide it. Then I'd put it on me like, no one's coming, go. And the clips are very short because we didn't enjoy being in public and doing that.

But we did it for the content, right? So thank you to my husband for going along with my dumb ideas and coming up with and adding to them he was like do the swing he's into it you know marry someone who wants to do the stupid stuff with you i think that's my my biggest takeaway but i'm very happy that you know i finally got a draft win and that it was with rachel like worth the wait you know i mean it's it's it's related but unrelated but i don't know if you ever saw my survivor application video i think it's on youtube i think there's both like the really shit one which i didn't get on and then the better one which i got on but i shot it the day

after the season six finale so i was in cape town at uh like at the uh robert otto the the dockers whatever And it was just like this montage of me and doing like these random things in Cape Town like in front of the public and people watching me and Hayley was like, why are you doing this so awkward? I have to film you climbing into like this small train that over

Kitsraya and everything. So yeah, I mean, not that I make a lot of social media videos, but i have done one where i was in public for you know shooting four minutes of footage and uh hayley was hiding every second of it as well so yeah it's it's for it's you got to do it for the content but yeah i think that the special mention to the spouses who put up with our bullshit has to be the first special mention of the podcast but jack how are you doing you know you're bookending my u.s survivor year we talked about the first episodes of 46 which feels like

a lifetime ago we peppered that the tailors with quotes that's where we were at in march 2025 2024 listen to me ready skipping ahead um and now you're here on the finale podcast what's happened for you in the last year ish of time has this been the longest that we've gone i think i mean it has to be right if it's the first episode first episode of one season and the last one of the next one i think it's kind of our longest time we haven't spoken yeah yeah no a ton has changed um i think the biggest one is i'm currently back in south africa uh permanently you can see behind me i have clear clear skies. Well, not clear skies, but sunshine-ish skies. Not rain, not snow. I'm wearing short-sleeved shirts.

So, yeah, back in South Africa, lots of changes happened. We bought a house. I'm the owner of a house, which is a weird experience. I know people always make a big deal out of it, but it feels like if you've ever played like Blonde vs. Zombies or like shooting games, which you like these zombies coming to your house and you just have to kind of defend.

So there's no kind of end game. You just play until you lose. That's what it feels like walking to a house. I feel like everything's going to break. You have to constantly repair until until they die so it's like a never-ending game or never-ending piece of stuff that we do um but yeah that's good and like you said i think our previous survivor chat we had all the taylor swift songs i'm not gonna do it this time um no i and people were my brother said a lot of people were like well jacques absolutely bodied you in that and you should be ashamed so I'm not going I don't need around to I like doing things that I win clearly

yeah I mean I I can prepare I mean I kind of suck a punch too I can prepare with a list of songs yes you know I it wasn't a fair fight because I had time to kind of prep what I want to say and you had to uh you know play by yes so uh sorry for sneaking it up on you six months ago but yeah it's fine it's a controversial week for coming into things with lists which we'll probably talk about later in the podcast but that is true that was unfair yeah it was unfair but anyway now we've got the finale podcast which is something i've never done with you uh usually you and i do these podcasts typically right just around after the merge so there's like these eight or ten people in the

game and there's like all these big moves and these alliances running each other now we kind of just have to i don't know take the season from zero and go through it i would assume so it's this new territory for me um that's for sure so let's see how it goes i mean yeah there's a lot of macro stuff with the season where it kind of ranks rachel's game is so interesting sam's game is so interesting and they spoke to it i think really well and final tribal council will probably continue that discourse because the online podcast discourse and the juror discourse was so intertwined that you could tell that these were super fans very online super fans who were like what will your legacy be I'm like this is what we're talking about it's like a you were better Mike type

winner it's like do they have like a line into the future of twitter like how are they doing this so a lot of the discourse we had was on the show we're going to talk about it but i mean yeah now that we're talking to you at the end of the season how have you felt about the season at large who did you enjoy from the cast like what have your thoughts been i think this is it's it's been an interesting season i think because firstly um we're getting to an event i going to have some notes on it, but I think somebody, I can't remember if it was Dalton Ross, somebody said it's the first time in I don't know how many seasons where there's three tribes, and in the first three episodes,

you have like one from every tribe going. Well, getting voted out. I think they've had that before, including Medivac. I think Mike said that it was a vote each time. So the disaster tribe trend was kind of ended here. Yeah, yeah, Mike said that it was, yeah, a vote each time. Yeah. So the disaster tribe trend was kind of ended here. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just from kind of the way the show is designed or the way the

edit is designed, typically the tribe who loses gets more airtime so you get to know them better. So a lot of the time, you know, one of these like really dominant tribes get into the merge and don't really know the players because you haven't seen that of them. No fault of the personalities of editors. It's just how it plays out.

So I think kind of coming in, I think I knew the players a lot better than I had on previous seasons. There was no person, I think with the exception of Genevieve, there was no person where like, you know, who else is this person after three episodes? I think that's kind of an Australian staple

where you're like five weeks and you're like, hey, is this person you? Like i think that's kind of an australian staple where you're like yeah five weeks and you're like hey is this person you like the date coming later um i think genevieve is maybe the only one where after three episodes i'm like i said who the hell's this person and then like later on she gets kind of like a you know it's promoted from uh from supporting cast to main cast which was quite good um and i think it's also kind of it was a very strong finish i think these last three or four episodes were quite good from kind of the Operation Italy. It kind of went, you know, wow, now it's changed. It wasn't as predictable as you would have expected it to be.

Yeah. I think the end game, there was a lot of, you know, very good episodes. I have a reason on why I think that is, but we'll get into it. And then, I mean, you flake it in with some interesting characters. Like, you know, it's sad we lost Asia, who's a podcaster. I think we would have liked to see her longer. I think the production people were sad that John left earlier. I think he was a very good narrator.

And then we have a couple of interesting characters, like, you know, somebody like Rome, who you know demonstrated that the uh sitting down and doing the puzzle with puzzle pieces handed to you is not a successful strategy um all the way until his demise you know just after the uh what do you want to call it uh pre-merge merge or um with that whole sequence of him you know it was great the production i think they just love this guy building himself up onto this, you know, high pedestal and then just like this fall from grace.

I think everybody kind of enjoyed that. And then obviously, I think we had a good winner in Rachel. And like you said, a lot of stuff in the final episode and final sub-accounts we can talk about. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's, as you said, like the fact that it was pretty even between the tribes at the beginning it goes with how I feel about the

season which was like I said my word is consistency like I think it was very consistent I think the edit was consistent I think with small gaps we can talk about Genevieve's early edit but we got to know everyone I think in a pretty comprehensive way I think that the play styles like people were besting each other there were wins and losses like as Sam said no one had like a perfect game so they were all pretty even um I think that Operation Italy was a highlight for me but otherwise I felt like it was reliably enjoyable time every week when you would show up so I just feel like it was a consistent season I know a lot of people have it as like their favorite of the new era I really enjoy it but for me consistently it's probably like ranked fourth like 42 for me has a special place in my heart and I love that season I'll defend it to my dying day 46 is the opposite

because it was such low lows and such high highs and as a person I tend to like that more like I tend to the extremes and I will like kind of see the lows through for the kind of better things which is something I've said in the past even how I look at game styles I kind of just prefer that in my life so I put 46 above it I think 45 is close to it also really good and I really like 47 like that's the top four to me probably trailing out to like a 41 44 43 which kind of ends up shuffling around those bottom three but yeah I have it really high but i have it like in the middle because i feel like consistently solid is my viewpoint on it yeah i definitely don't think it's the uh the emptiness machine that season 43 was um but it still was um i think there was still a lot of characters that were quite memorable like i said i mentioned uh rome which is somebody

yeah definitely yeah yeah and I think just like Saul was also somebody I really enjoyed you know he was just this even it's one of those people even though when he was voted out and he was a juror he just had like such a presence on the screen with like his vest and the way he was sitting there and like like looking people love the vest yeah staring down at the people and kind of giving these you know two word explanations and people go oh wow so i think um i think in terms of characters uh i think also i've had you know many good characters and then i obviously um we discussed in a bit i know people always complain about there's too many game bots on the show whatever and then you have like a lot of emotional

players like somebody like teeny who wears a heart on his sleeve. And then it gives you a whole other dynamic to the game where it's people who are just playing with their emotions all the time, which is kind of a refreshing breath for me, which I enjoy. So yeah, I think you're right in terms of

ranking it. Not the time to discuss it. I think we should go back to longer seasons but uh but that's a maybe a different conversation um yeah i mean well look i've been saying this whole time that with the shorter new era format i've been drafting for the fact that people can win by winning out because they have the outset four and it's a final three and there's fewer rounds you're gonna have you know like even like split tribals where people are immune more this is the time to win to the end and i've been drafting big guys that i thought could do that and then rachel who i did not draft for that purpose did do it so the prophecy came true and that is you know a way

to possibly gain the new era and it's definitely set up this really interesting conversation around types of ways to play and being like an underdog like you've been and fighting from the bottom and having the idols and the trinkets and the immunities versus trying to like have some overt control which is really hard in the new era because players are such super fans especially that they you know want to one-up each other all the time and it's really hard to to play that to the end although you know people always talk about the read before t Tika did it, you know, as well. They were just a minority group,

but they marched forward together and got it done in really, really savvy ways. So I think that we have the group examples in the new era and we have people kind of coming from the bottom and, you know, like emerging, which I think we have kind of a lot of examples of that. But yeah, it kind of feeds into this finale and the finale ends up being the final four so what did you think of this as a finale um because

when Rachel wins in the first 10 minutes I was like I'm getting my tiara for my photo op and for me it was never in doubt but did you think that there was like a suspense here like how did you enjoy this finale no I think because I think also in terms of just how the season played out, because like you said, you used the word consistency because the edit was so consistent. I think for the most part, up until, you know,

there were six people left in the game, I felt like it could have been anybody winning the game. There wasn't kind of, oh, it's obvious. X, Y, and Z is going to win the game based on the edit or the perception or

whatever. But I think after they were kind of building up this whole Genevieve and Rachel showdown which was very good to watch as well kind of this positive rivalry

where it wasn't salty but it was just respectful foes you know it's like when the All Blacks and the Spinning Bucks play each other they're like we respect you and you respect us. Let's go play the game. That was quite good to see. But I think after she got out, it was kind of,

okay, I mean, I struggled to see anybody else winning except Rachel, just from what we've seen up until then. I would have been highly surprised. And then when we sat down, I told Haley,

I said, I think Rachel's's gonna win 662 that's my prediction um and then she won 71 so it wasn't kind of all what's going to happen uh suspense it wasn't maybe the most exciting um kind of oh gotcha last episode that we've had um but i think the fire making wasn't interesting. It was an exciting fire making in the sense that usually, I mean, it's fire making, you make a fire, and then it exponentially grows, right?

So if you're behind, it's very difficult to make a comeback. But, I mean, I think like Tina had like a massive, she was like, her thing was touching the rope before Sam even had like a spark. And then somehow you got back into it which um yeah which was quite and i think i think it shows kind of his personality because she was kind of looking at them asking what do i do what do i do and sam was just like i know what i need to do i just need to do it so it kind of showed kind of a different personalities um and the way they played the games. I was really surprised when she lost out on the fire.

I mean, obviously, like I said, I predicted 6-2, 7-1. So maybe not the most excitement in terms of who's going to win. But you touched on it earlier, kind of the whole conversation this finale was, is it better to vote every vote right and know what's going to happen? Or is it better to win the immunities? Or is it better to have known what's happening, but you didn't ruffle any feathers?

So I think that's kind of the conversation. I think that was a trending spin on this finale. And I think a lot more positive. We've seen a lot of people being very salty, generous in the past, being very antagonistic, which I didn't get the sense like this season i didn't get that sense from what we saw on the tv that they were super um salt about what happened on the that's we saw yeah but saltiness is interesting to me i mean i don't want it every i mean i think that there's

intrigue there i think there's something nice about a really positive jury and i've also spoken about the trauma that finalists go through and how like for our entertainment war, like, yeah, get him. And like putting people through years of therapy, which I really struggle with. And as horrible as it was like Maria, not voting for Charlie, I think is the most interesting thing that happens in 46 and I love 46, but it's so interesting.

Like I could speak for hours just on that one vote and I've read like articles now on the jury. Like, that's so interesting to me. This was positive and straightforward, but I also think like the coronation finale that we had um you know it was good for what it was and I really like I don't have a lot of complaints in it I thought Rachel was going to win um on edit on game I thought she'd have to lose and it's a challenge and fire when she is the clutch player like she gets it done I backed her so hard that she would get it done that I clearly recorded my video before the finale aired so that's how good I felt about it then you know once she wins the immunity I was like no one is beating her and the argument that she gave

at final tribal council which is like if you put me out to be the threat you can't sit next to me it was an unbeatable argument um as well as I think Sam did at final tribal council I was like there's nothing to say to this what less than a percent of me was a little bit sitting there in front of my tv with my tiara on thinking this would be a really funny photo if Sam's about to win but I did feel that she had it on lock so I don't really have many complaints I think that that coronation edit is fine I just think in a different world this finale might have been a regular finale where they start at the final five and if Genevieve just gets content in the first three episodes then we go into the finale thinking Genevieve or Rachel which is so fitting and then Rachel does win like an

hour and a half into that not 10 minutes and I think that is fine like I don't think we need more than that so I definitely you know was it the simplest possible finale like there's there's very little to talk about just even on like you know Rachel's fire decision because she could have her cake and eat it because she was gonna win you know I was ready to come in and talk about Sue should put herself into fire you know if she wins Teenie should put themselves into fire like because the jury might like it and I do want to talk about like having a seat at the final table and being heard and giving her something something to be heard or like Sam needs to know like who he put in against Rachel,

which seemingly would have been teeny as the best fire maker. So that would have been interesting because that was like getting Rachel out. Once Rachel won, I was like, it is done. And I think I don't have many complaints about that because I do think as well, you know, we've, you know, coronation with edit for a woman is rarer and good. And I think as well, like in terms of the edit, like some of it I felt was very heavy handedhanded in ways which we can talk about but the narration in this finale is like Rachel and like and everyone else you know but I also think

there are still people dismissing her games and her game is quite nuanced we're gonna spend the next couple hours talking about it but I think you need to build it up a little bit like I think a lot of what Sam was doing not a lot but some of it was clearly buried and now um like I still I still back that you know like for me like I'm happy to see what Sam did and still know that I think that Rachel should have won but I think that if they build Sam up because it's so much harder for women to get credit, then more people are just going to be like, well, she didn't deserve to win. She didn't get lucky.

So like banging people over the head with it clearly still isn't even enough. And it's probably necessary for how hard that is for women. So if the edit was kind of pushing that narrative a little bit and hiding Sam a little bit, well, I would like to see it all and would still understand like Rachel's winning game. I don't know that everyone could.

So I think that the juice is worth the squeeze on that. Yeah. No, no, I agree with you. And I think I actually like it because when they were kind of getting ready for the fire making tribal, she was like, okay, I'm going to cut the bridge. This is what's going to happen.

It's going to be you to make the fire. That's it. They didn't have any kind of suspense like, hmm, I will see when I walk into trial will you know who i will choose yeah it's just like kind of that's what's going to happen um and then i enjoyed that when they asked her about the fire making and she said listen i've played i've done everything right i don't have to now go and win fire again i've already won four immunities i've already used an idle effect if they've already done so much. I don't have to do that much more. And I think, I know that's one of the criticisms,

because Survivor has a bit of recency bias as a player, when you're sitting there, you kind of remember the last thing, you know, more prominently, and it's kind of this big showdown. If you, you know, you put on the mantle and you walk in, you're like, I'm going to take out the biggest threat. And then you win in fire. And people are like, oh, wow, what an amazing moment. And that's the last memory they have before they go to sleep tonight before they

have to cast their vote so I kind of respected that she said I've done enough I don't have to do anything more and this was enough of a game and that she was able to claim it I mean obviously final tribal lasts for hours I mean hours lasted until after midnight it was like you don't know we had no idea how long it is when you're sitting there. Obviously, four hours of people talking isn't that exciting, unless it's us doing podcasts. But I think it's good that they kind of accepted it, that there was no, you have to do more.

I think she claimed it, and I think with a jury respect that, and like you said, it was enough of a game. I think the very interesting point that Sam made was saying, I'm the only one who voted correctly every single time. Now, that's a good statement. I mean, that's a very impressive statement to make. To say you didn't know what's happening half of the time.

I mean, doesn't mean you played from the top all the time. Doesn't mean you had a commanding game. But it did mean that he had at least, he knew what was going to happen. Maybe he wasn't steering the ship, but he knew that he had a compass, maybe a direction. So I'm not saying he should have won. I'm just saying it's a very interesting point.

We've got, what do you need to win? And I think there are like three different approaches these three players had and I think that's a very compelling one saying I voted correctly every single tribal and it's not a strong enough case which actually just means how strong of a case Rachel had above and beyond that which I think kind of solidifies the game yeah but I think Sam and we'll talk let's talk about final tribal council with that like he had to restate his game a little bit because his game I think had less to defend than Rachel's which was more impressive once she's put

out as the threat and she's sitting uphill she's running downhill it's difficult to do i think he did very well in characterizing his game sometimes he had to overstate it sometimes he said he he took control and i don't think he had a lot of control i think he did very well in kind of a different underdog game to rachel which he also characterized it as, as like bobbing and weaving and like jumping from like stepping stone to stepping stone in interesting strategic ways, not as much by defending like Rachel did, but look like this person's a shield and jumping onto this plan.

And as I said for Sam a couple of weeks ago, getting out one threat to kind of buffer around to get further and further, which is what he did. But I mean, I appreciate the stats. Always got to appreciate a good stat, but like Sam's got to know he's like, you know, he did. But I mean, I appreciate the stats. Always got to appreciate a good stat. But like Sam's got to know he's like, you know, he's overstating it a little bit. Firstly, voting correctly every time, like because he lost his vote at the auction.

So he would have been out of the Sierra vote, but it's a fun little stat to not be able to say that you weren't out. Even for like the sole vote, you know, like Rachel's more in on that than Sam, but that was a pile on vote. There were a lot of pile on votes. So like voting correctly every time. I don't and I mean even like voting correctly every time like he voted for Rachel and then Andy went home so is that like voting correct correctly every time as well so yeah I think that they're that that stat was maybe a little overstated but I don't blame

him for yeah for using those stats. And, yeah, like, he came in prepared. And I think that mostly characterized his game very well. But he had to, like, you know, work to get it, to try and get it to Rachel's game. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with what you're saying.

And I think it's difficult because you also don't know what a juror will value as a player sitting there. We saw it last season with Charlie thinking, I have such a good relationship. And then she didn't even end up voting for him. So it's difficult as a juror to understand what's kind of a right pitch. But that being said, I don't think this is one of those jobs. I think most of the people knew who they were going to vote for coming in. I don't think, I don't know if it was answered in Exxon Press, but Jeff usually asks the question, if this and this happened,

would you have voted differently? We didn't see that in this show. So I think most people coming came in knowing who they would want to vote for. So I don't think it was that kind of, you know, making the case. But I always find that from my experience talking to the players who played Survivor, you kind of, unless it's something drastic, you kind of vote for the person you like the most because we're humans, you know, unless something drastic happens. So, yeah, I think it's good. I feel a bit sad for Sue as well.

I think a lot of time you have these people who just kind of get dragged to the end. I think she could have done more, but I also think that she didn't play that bad a game. She was in on a lot of the things. She knew what was happening. It's always bad if it's the final three. I mean, most likely someone's going to get zero votes. But I felt like it's not like Australian Survivor. We are just like one of these two people

who just get dragged to the end and have like no agency in the game at all. I think Sue did at least, you know, she had good connections. She didn't know what was going on most of the time. So I'm just wondering if it's like a case she could have made to kind of at least get a vote or two, or maybe if, well, I'm curious to hear your thoughts

coming in at like six people at the game, if there's a way or something that she could, because I have an opinion I would like to hear yours first. Is there something she could have done to maybe put a better claim in at the end? Well, firstly, I have to correct myself he didn't vote for andy right rachel blocked his vote so to be fair the two times he would have been out of the vote he lost his vote because this is a new era which is so classic that doesn't count as a

stat of being voting right every time i appreciate you being being cute about it sam but okay if you lose your vote twice and you would have voted incorrectly and been blindsided i feel like for me i'm like it's not like an authentic what andy said that he doesn't like like incorrect stats i feel like he wouldn't have vibe once andy did we ever see how that advantage works that she did she have to play it like give it to a producer before they walk into yeah she gave it before and said sam and then he gets to the booth and it says that he yeah but i can't remember if it was like i didn't like it was a screenshot of the parchment but i'm going to assume that's how it would work uh yeah we never saw kind of her like hey mr producer i'm i'm cashing in my check

that is yeah that's so his vote was blocked so i feel like but again like they all had wins and losses over each other that's why it's again it's a difficult game for sam to defend because he can't say like yeah like she got blindsided three times but he would have been out twice like she bested him he bested her that's what makes this like dynamic so interesting and she has all the other flashy stuff and she was the big threat like i can't say that there was a big disparity in the fact that like a little bit but i can't say he was like that much more in the know than her and i feel like she had more control again like at the soul vote he's not in that really she's bringing him into that you know there's some there's some stuff around that in the car vote, he's not in that really. She's bringing him into that. You know, there's some stuff around that.

In the Kyle vote, he's very out of that. Like I can't say that he's controlling things a lot more than her. I understand why he's saying it. I'm just saying, I see you with your stats, Sam, okay? So let's just talk about what, you know, you're running correctly as. In terms of Sue, and then we'll get to the main kind of two

as they were deemed in the Spiner Tribal Council. Yeah, a couple of things firstly i think what's really important is like people like if i just get to then i can state my case and sue obviously thought that the age thing would be like a big game changer i'm sure about loyalty maybe get some relationship votes but i think what we're seeing is like one person especially will be left out like we talk about goats but like one person's going to be like the zero vote finalist it's really really hard for people to even get a vote usually in these like one vote at least like no one's ever gotten more than one vote as the lowest vote getter in a final three in us and australia inspired but we did have

a plurality inspired south africa but yeah it's really hard to get even a vote so that zero vote finalist might not even get a chance to talk i saw zero vote finalist like you know owen was tweeting about like so we've been getting the chance to speak and I think that like you can't just get to the end you have to get to the end with something to speak about so that you don't just have a seat at the table but you are speaking at the table and that's my thing with Sue is it was quite a conservative game like even like oh I'm not putting I don't want to ask even be put into fire against Sam like why you have the big Sam moment you have nothing to lose and I think that was like fire making.

What I wanted to see as a decision is just self-awareness. For Rachel, the self-awareness to know, like, I don't need to pander to that. I have more than enough and I don't need to put myself at risk. Great. You know yourself, you know your game. For Sam, it should have been,

I just need to get Rachel out. Who's best at fire? Is it me? Didn't seem to be, but if it was, put yourself in. If it's not, put Teenie in, you know? And for Teenie and Stu, I would have liked to see, I need a big moment I'm putting myself in. And for Sue to not even ask Rachel and to be like,

I'm good, that to me shows kind of a lack of understanding of what the jury would value. And the other thing that I think for Sue that is crazy to me, I don't know if she said it in Final Tribal, but she's definitely said it in the interviews. She was the one, she says, who told Rachel to vote on Andy over Sam. Now, I was leaning to kind of Sam from a from a you know challenge perspective for Rachel but I saw Andy you know maybe Rachel doesn't want to sit next to

Andy because he's bested her three times and he actually did have a good voting record no caveats other than maybe John um so I saw that for her but like it was a tweener for me for Sue to push Andy like Sue's best path is the hope of going with teeny and Andy and people disrespect teeny enough. And then people hate Andy enough. I think at the point where she's pushed Andy just from a pure emotional standpoint. And maybe this is like,

again, like the issue with her game. Cause it was a big Kyle thing at the point where she's done that. That's like a game losing move for me. So that's like terrible. And I probably would have factored that into Chizzy points last week. Had I known she, I mean,

I think her game she did her game and like it was a loyalty game but it emboldened rachel you know even like thinking through and i was thinking last week you know about rachel's advantage game and she had the idol and she had the vote block to split and even if she couldn't even if they could split like sue was immune you know like the two of them had it locked up as a minority three advantages between the two of them but for rachel to embolden three advantages between the two of them, but for Rachel, to embolden Rachel. And I would just like Sue to do something to get a voice

at Final Trophy Council. I want to mention two things, which adds on to what you're saying. Firstly, what you're saying about nobody respecting Annie's game. It was kind of like the cooler Doral in this season, where he was kind of flip-flopping and just blowing up other people's games for the sake of, but at least I think he kind of had, he envisioned that as his way to the end,

which I suspect more than some of the other things that happened. But I think in terms of Sue, what I think was really good, I think what she could potentially have done, and this is something I've always struggled with, is I know people complain about the font just in the game and this and that, whatever.

But she got her idol, the court red-handed idol, like very long. Sorry? The Lady Macbeth idol out damn spot that's how i like to refer to it yeah yeah i mean she got a pre-merge right and then whether you tell people or not i mean that that's a different conversation but she had this idol the whole game pre-merge merge up until the end and then you kind of it reminded me a bit about um i think

it was troys and game changes where it's final five and he's like i got this idol like super early in the game i'm gonna play it and then like you negate no votes and you haven't done anything with it and people afterward like okay you know what did you do i think and this is the thing about survivors some people play with advantages some people play without it you you can win both ways it's been shown repeatedly but i think if you have something like that and things start becoming a bit messy or you need to make a move or something, you see I don't have that much agency in the game. I think then saying, okay, there's this opportunity, we can do an Operation Brazil or an Operation Phoenix,

whatever you want to call it. Yeah, you should always just be named after different countries. and a Phoenix, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, it should always just be named after different countries. Yeah. Try and make a play and try and at least do something not for the sake of pulling up a CV or whatever, but saying, okay, I have this tool I can use to change the direction of

this game. Instead of having it until Final Five, using it, blocking our votes. And that's not impressive. If you do, I think Marianne showed the opposite. She showed, right, you can get to the end. And so I had this idol nobody knew about. I didn't even have to use it because my game was that good.

But then you need to play a game where you get into that position where you can say, I don't have to use it. And I think that's kind of the one drawback for Sue is I think she had the ammunition to kind of make a move. I'm just sad that she didn't kind of do something with it three or four rounds earlier to kind of take control of the game.

Or at least show that she was a player in the game, but not just cruising along. Well, ammunition is nothing without awareness. And in the Kyle vote, I think it was, I said Sue and Andy have been described as goats. They both need to do what I said. Pow, pow. They need to pow, pow, which is just do anything.

Like you're a zero vote finalist. They're not even going to listen to you at Final Tribal Council if you sit there with this game right now. So you need to do something. And then immediately Andy did. He knew that perception and he 3-2-2'd it. It was awesome. And I will always back it.

Always, always back it. Even if it hadn't gone well before it went poorly, even if it had just gone poorly, it would have been right. And because we see what happened to Sue. Sue doesn't even get to talk with final tribal council that's andy's other path and sue didn't know that that was what she needed to do um and that lack of awareness like you can't play with that you're misreading the whole jury which is such a crucial part of the game she was doing anything especially because she has an idol as you say um yeah was i think essential just to like upset the apple cart in any way to have something to speak to and once you have something to speak to hopefully they focus a little on you and now

they're listening you know you need to get their attention it's like hey i just did this now that i have your attention i'm also 59 you know like you they first have to be listening to you and i think sue has really shown that and i just anyone who could it's so hard but anyone who has the awareness to be like i'm a goat just just it's like it's like being it's like being like, no, like being asleep and knowing you're awake, you know, like when you have dreams where you, and you can just do anything. That's like, it's like, I can do any like pow, pow, you know, anything playing with house money at that point. So, or lack of house money. So I wish they would have done that, but yeah, to talk about, um,

let's talk about it. Sam and Rachel, this, this top two, this for this, you know, first and second. Interesting battle of final tribal council, and they talked a lot about, you know, their games, and I want to talk through that as well. I think they were both really interestingly against type, which was so fun. It was one of my favorite parts of the finale.

It was like Sam was like, I had to scrap, and I'm the under, and she was like, I came in as this big physical threat, and they're like, did you body swap? Like, this isn't what we would imagine imagine saying pre-season that they as a final two are doing that no one would guess and that is our you know misperceptions I think I've underestimated Sam a lot you know like he was saying in exit interviews or even before I read an interview with him before the finale with Dalton who had sat down with the final four and Sam was saying that he'd already come up with Operation Italy,

as Andy had, and they kind of brought it together. That was a big part of taking Andy on reward. You know, I was like, he could never have come up with that, because I'm wrong. I underestimated him. I was biased on that. I had a misperception. And as well, last week, I was like, why doesn't he want to get rid of Jen?

Like, he has to, but does he want to? He did. Like, he was very intentionally using the Genevieve shield. He had so much awareness to him. You know, he had an much awareness to him um you know he had a he had an anti-shield possibility as well that maybe even kind of came to fruition so I think he was managing that really really well and I was underestimating him and some was showing because he's going to lose to Rachel and we can't have people even more being like he was robbed um which we you know we can talk about so yeah I mean I think Sam's game is great but I just think Rachel Rachel's game was better and like if the thing that Sam didn't do was achieve getting her out

at final four and if he does that he's a solid winner too but like how do you see their two games and how they advocated for it at final tribal council I think two things about Sam I want to mention the first thing is uh he i mean i think he said it he said he sucks at winning immunities but he's great at winning rewards something like that um i mean he won a couple of rewards right we he yeah he won operation italy yeah exactly so it's always weird where i mean it's a coin flip it happened in our season when i was in uh after the swap on that long way tribe i think we won two or three rewards, but we lost every immunity challenge. So it's such a, I mean,

such a coin flip in terms of what the challenge is for the award versus the one for immunity. I mean, whatever. So then people are like, oh, you're a bunch of losers. Like, sure we are, but also not. We actually win some things. We just lost the wrong ones, you know. So

not discrediting that she won for immunities which is like a new record joining um you know the she's like now the fifth woman won four awards right um before immunities yeah because yeah kelly jenna chrissy and kim yeah yeah that's quite cool that's quite cool i mean that's that's that's mega so in that regard i think um you know sam he did want something just like he was absent to use this uh in challenges um but then i think what what cost him and that's one of those things that's very difficult in survivor because you don't know what it is but i know ty always says there's one challenge to lose it's the family

visit um and you want the challenge and afterwards it's like oh by the way there's letters from home yeah and then you're in that horrible position because you could take three people and then four people couldn't get the letters I believe yeah so you have like more the majority of the people are going to be angry with you because it's not just food it's you've taken away the you know the loved ones or whatever and and it's because we're humans. If you think about mathematically, you're like, he did his best, he won the challenge, he got the food. This is just something that gets a bonus. But in terms of the reactions that people had, I think Carolyn and Tini were specific like, oh, he took away my letter from home. And it's actually such an

enemy. That's part of the game, putting people people in that difficult position like what do you want to do um but I think that kind of finally lost him even if he gets to the end there were so many people who were like oh Sam is such a bad guy because he took away my letter I think that like the last sliver of hope he had I mean heavy is the crown for the person who have to make that decision um that's the design of a game but i think so many people and tight oh yeah it is i mean yeah yeah um and then i lost my train of thought now um what was i saying oh yeah the reward my bad yeah yeah yeah um and i think like there were just so many people What was I saying? Heavy, but there's still reward. My bad. Like, I am wearing a crown. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, like, there were just so many people that got, was not impressed by what he did then. And I think that kind of was, let's say, the final nail in the coffin. But I think then you get into a very slippery slope. You get back into position where you can win the game if, like, those score four people. And then, obviously, they tell the jury how bad you are etc and then

i think that's just the difficult position he was really um i don't think i don't think that was the issue with sam like i think sam was well well liked i think sam firstly he's a young guy he's got a great head on his shoulders like people want to project a lot onto sam that is just not there like the way he's talked in ex interviews by giving teeny a lot of grace for teeny you know not reacting well to sam um i think it is amazing the way people are like he's undercutting her at tribal at final tribal council he's making snarky like facial reactions like firstly like that could be at any time we don't even know what that's to because it's an edit but also like he should be doing all of that like this

is war like what should he just like lay down and die like of course it's a debate like and I thought it was enthralling I thought they were both so self-aware it spoke to you know how much they know each other's games that they had good rebuttals for each other I think Sam was even um a little better than Rachel and I wondered if that was the edit to make it look close after you know hiding Sam a little bit through the season but now and now it needs to feel close but I do think based on X interviews that it seems like Sam kind of did come away winning final tribal council it was just he had way more of a gap in an un like kind of breakable gap to get to the fact that Rachel had been the threat and from a likability standpoint like I think that that was there you know I think he had closer relationships who voted for Rachel on just being purely impressed with her this was like a gameplay vote you know talk about like who you like more my thing has always been I don't know who you like more but I think that you

pretty much vote for someone you like so you have to if you like two people now let's look at gameplay maybe maybe maybe you still go with the person you like yeah but I think you are open like Genevieve was way closer with Sam but she respected Rachel um Sierra I was surprised about but maybe you know that speak to her relationship with Rachel even pre-merge in that positioning um that she had a relationship with both and she was struggling like you know we talk about the the letters reward he took Genevieve and Andy neither of them voted for him so um yeah I don't think it's either a social thing I just think that there wasn't enough in his game like I just I think it was kind of over

before it began and I think he did as well as he possibly could but this was not enough there like he's he's talking about his game I've put used the the quotes he said well-rounded which I think is fair but so Rachel's I think was also well-rounded they both had some strategic gaps but are clearly smart strategic players they're both physical players but Rachel has more of that they're both well-liked um adaptable also Rachel unfortunately but true he's adapted in different ways dynamic and creative and i don't think that's untrue too so i think he characterized his game well i just think you know to talk a little bit about control was just an overstatement but mostly my issue is that it just wasn't there um compared to rachel for me and i think it's a game thing

more than it's a social thing i think they both were liked by people yeah no it is and I think I was also surprised that um um that uh Sierra didn't vote for him I was expecting her to vote for him but like you say I mean that and maybe that just shows you know obviously there's a lot of things we didn't see but that just shows relationships Rachel Rachel had because a lot of the time you get to the end and you get to the end and it's kind of I burned you you know you came for me and then I got you and I think Rachel was very she wasn't because a lot of people a lot of times there's this question from a jury like why did you vote out me why what did I would you vote out me and then that's what I always like the quote that Tony said and when it's like that's that's the game you know we we come in here we have to walk up there we have to write down a name Jeff reads the vote and the person goes out that's why I always like the quote that Tony said in Winners' Door. It's like, that's the game. You know, we come in here, we have to walk up there, we have to write down a name, Jeff reads the vote,

and the person goes out. That's how the game works. We're not doing anything wrong. But I think Rachel did it in such a way that she didn't antagonize a lot of people. She didn't create this. I mean, she and Genevieve had this well-respected rivalry, but there wasn't any votes of like, ah, I just hate the person.

I want to get them out of a game. You know, I can't stand them. If they do X, Y, and Z, another day I'll go crazy. I just have to get rid of them. I think she played in such a way that the people in the jury don't think, oh, Rachel, you know, was such so villainous to me or so antagonistic. She did it in a way that you can stand there and say, well, I tried to get you out.

I couldn't. You're best at me. And we tried to get you out and then you want four immunities and on top of that you know you were a likable person so here's a check i think that's uh if you want to win survivor that's the way to do it right that's kind of the if you can get people out in a way that they don't despise you then you have a lot better chance of winning the game than you know doing the russell hans style yeah well let's talk about that the way to play the way to win because rachel plays on this defensive game um and that's you know and i i had any kind of criticism of her final tribal council i think that she was kind of overwhelmed by how well sam was doing a little

bit i still think she was great i also think it was a little one note a lot of like the idol a lot of like the big flashy moves. We expected a little bit about like the shot in the dark, which she's confirmed she didn't think to say. She didn't realize how much Twitter would love it, that it was worth kind of talking about. And so it was a little one note. And I do think as well,

that fed into the narrative we got for her. I think her edit was a little bit one note. I would have liked to see these other elements that I've heard about her game. She's saying now that Sue and Caroline were allies of hers after the Sierra vote. So something like that. I would have loved to see,

because that kind of goes away from the like purely like mechanisms, fighter, like that's like the social co-ordinates that she did have, especially through the mid merge. She had these relationships through even like the soul vote, Gabe, Kyle. Those were some of those those bigger votes where she was like in the numbers she had the numbers even when when caroline went home so um i would have liked to see more of that i feel like she said it a little bit as well she talked about like the underdog five and the way she'd had those social outs i would have liked to have

seen even more of that something i loved about her game that we didn't see in the edit was the way that she like hugely blackmailed andy at operation italy or after operation italy when when andy went home to be like sue and i will never vote for you if you lie to me again and that was to try and control him and when that didn't work it gave her information i love that but the edit couldn't show it and i get it because she'd be demonized because it's hard out there for women and i want to see that because i think it's badass and i know that that's not doesn't make her a bad person it's just a great move so parts of that are what I love about her game but I feel like in the edit and in of what at least what we saw and what seemed to be of the final tribal council it was kind of a lot on this fighter narrative um which we will talk about at lens now I'm sure but yeah I feel like

that was kind of where we were at with that I think that's kind of I think that's kind of the the the difference between the way Rachel played and potentially Sue. Calling all sellers. Salesforce is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here,

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Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. When you look at Sue and Carl, you know, they were so over each other and kind of back and forth. And Rachel only had that one rivalry with Genevieve, which, like I said, was a well-respected rivalry. And then from that to kind of get to that position where you can still say

you're the underdog, right? And I think that's kind of like you said, it's a story about the two underdogs. It's Sam's the one underdog where he has to go and fight out. And then she's the underdog. But I think what's different is, yes, she won the challenges, which was good. But she also made kind of key social connections at the right time with the right people. And I think that was a saving grace. And then in addition, the night camo leopard crawling thing and spying on them and realizing, okay, they're coming for getting that intel and kind of cross-checking that to what people

are saying like, okay, now some people lied to me. Now I know what's happening. That just shows you it's not just about having information, but you have to actually go and get the information, right? So she didn't just sit at the shelter and kind of, you know, play the game in her head. Like I think Andy was sometimes just in his head kind of thinking of these master plans

instead of talking to people and getting them to connect with them. I think she did a good job of winning when she needed to win, doing what you need to do to get the information, using the advantages in the right way. Exactly. I mean, you mentioned the shot in the dark.

She lost it and then she didn't have a shot in the dark anymore. And then in the end, just being likable. I think it's like a ticking all the right boxes. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that it does, obviously, I think that's why I call her a well-rounded player, even though there are, know you know some strategic gaps I think that if I were to kind of you know look at her game I think the one hole which she kind of spoke about well she's spoken about a couple I think that she spoke about in front of tribal council that influence was tough I don't think the social

game was tough but I will say yeah she she struggled to get people to kind of do her bidding as much and I don't know if that was this kind of cast and where she was at socially or if that's, you know, her as a player. But I think that that, you know, was kind of a low number compared to all the other skills that she had. She also spoke about not being able to really predict people when they played sub optimally. Like she didn't think that, well, I don't think it was sub optimally. I think that, that like Andy's move, you know, I thought that was a great move.

She didn't see operation Italy as a good move for him. But even within that I always remember Richard Hatch talking about how hard it is for like players who see things so logically to try and like see things from like other maybe more chaotic points of view um so I think that that that is something that probably a lot of like really logical players might might suffer from just broadly as much as I back Operation Italy um but yeah I mean look let's talk about the the Mike and Ben of it all because that's been the comparison it's been such a highly debated comparison and then Andy brought it up because Andy is online apparently in the past and knows what we're going to talk about and it's like they are not well regarded and it's so

interesting to see the way that even the fans are reacting to this now because even now they're like it's sexist to compare to Mike and Ben and it's like but she agreed that you know that that she's in that mold and i think that there's so many things here about like kind of fans not wanting to reckon with themselves like i think it's actually less about rachel and rachel's game and i think it's more about fans don't want to have to reckon with themselves like why did i hate that and why did i why do i like this when like it's totally fine to subjectively like one character more who's doing something compared to you know other characters that you subjectively don't like more but yeah when it feeds into your analysis and you see one thing is really good and one thing is really bad

um then yeah maybe look at that because that that is a bias but in saying that as well those games can be very differently ranked you know Rachel and I think did that game style we talked about it last week like the best I think she definitely finished it off the best we can talk about those comparisons but that doesn't mean she's ranked the same as like a Ben and a Mike I think the bias is people who hate that game style all the time and thought that they did or said that they did and now like it just unpack that then maybe you just didn't like those characters and that like maybe character means more to you than game style um because I do think usually the super fans don't love the advantage heavy and the the challenge heavy game styles and they like it

now so I think unpack that for your own subjective preferences but yeah on game I think you can still say I I thought she was better you know I think she did these things better than Ben and Mike and we'll compare those games but I don't think that those things, I don't think it's insulting to compare it to Ben and Mike. I think she does it. I think she's so aware of herself. I think that that's all very fair and it's still really impressive.

And you can like one and not the other, just like kind of be honest about where those preferences are and like where the analysis lies for me. Oh man, it wouldn't be a podcast we do if we don't complain about, or I at least complain about social media and people being negative online it's got an all-time high well not really things have been worse but yeah yeah i i have a hate hate not a love i have a hate relationship with

social media because i can like coffee and you can like tea and that doesn't mean we have to be at at fighting lengths and i have to tell you every single And that doesn't mean we have to be at fighting lengths. And I have to tell you every single time you drink tea that I have to tell you that you are such a bad person. I will never drink tea. I'm also one of those people. I don't know if it's an Africa thing or it's a me thing or it's a way I was brought up or it's my personality. I don't know. But I'm one of those people who feel like if you don't agree with some somebody you don't have to tell

them that you can just keep that information to yourself it doesn't you you don't have to tell them and you don't have to be antagonistic with them um and yeah anyway um but bring it back to your point about uh about uh comparing her to other winners uh who perhaps not as highly rated i think jeff said it best when he said, you know, she's now the fifth woman to have won four immunity challenges. The two of them didn't win the game. So just winning out, sometimes it wins you the game

and sometimes it doesn't win you the game. And I don't like it when people are just putting you in a box for a reason like you did nothing wrong. And like you said, she brought it up. She's the one who said, listen, you know, and Andy brought it up as well. I think that in a season, it's always unique, and the people will vote whoever they want to vote for.

And as the audience, you weren't there. So the 18 or 21 people or whatever who was there, they played the game and then they decided to win it. And then that is what it is. You can't go to actually say, oh, I think they made a mistake. They did what they thought were right with the information they had. And I just wrote a very extensive article about how like I feel we can criticize I mean we criticize everything right like that's my

um my job right and I and I don't I think what I said in the article was like and I'm not criticizing these jurors I'm not I'm not even talking about this from a juror perspective I'm just I'm more talking about how we as fans as Gabe says talk about Rachel's legacy which is again something they were talking about on the island in the in the final tribal council is legacy but even from like a final tribal council perspective I think what I've said is like because the latitude for jurors is so major um where you basically it's vote how you want to vote we can still criticize it but just like only to a point like less and especially because also yeah all you have to do is vote you don't have to do something in order to get a win which you do in the game so it has to be i think very

specific to be like wait what and it's more like as i said in the article and i'm kind of rehashing it but like we can you know maybe criticize like the human move of like that's not something we usually endorse for humans to be like critical or emotional a bit or kind of you know that that aspect and maybe that doesn't mean they're wrong but it's something that's maybe bad but i don't see that from a juror perspective i'm just looking at how we kind of look you know, that aspect. And maybe that doesn't mean they're wrong, but it's something that's maybe bad. But I don't see that from a juror perspective. I'm just looking at how we kind of look at Rachel's game because I think that the legacy of Rachel is going to be something that even now is so,

you know, highly debated, you know, between her being like, oh, she's so lucky and not good or between her being like the best ever. And I think that that will only get worse over time because people will stop remembering the nuances that I do believe exist in her game and then the discourse about it will be even worse like I think it'll be misremembered because there's so much kind of important nuance to all the good things she was doing but with all the gaps that she had and because the discourse

has been so extreme from either side that's going to be completely washed out to the extremes as you know discourse tends to do i i agree with you i want to say think about what i want to say now clearly um you can like i say you can criticize somebody and not be negative or make them feel bad about themselves right that is that is possible i think a lot of time people get unnecessarily personal. That's always terrible. Exactly. I will just say this about the jurors. As somebody who's played the game and as

somebody who sat at a final tribal council and had to cast a vote, you don't have, as a player, at that point in time, you don't have full information. You don't even know as a player, at that point in time, you don't have full information. Exactly. You don't even know if the stuff the jury tells you, the three finalists, you don't even know if that's the truth.

They might say, I found this idol on day X, Y, and Z. And then afterwards you find out, oh, no, that's not how it happened at all. And I think a lot of times if people have watched the show over and you tell them then to vote, I think the result would be a different lot of times if people have watched the show over and you tell them then to vote, I think the result would be a different lot of times. And I'll give you an example. I'm going to think about how I'm afraid of this. Because that's one of the casualties you have of voting

without watching it with full information. There was a person in our season who voted for one of the two finalists based on a statement that was made at the tribal council. And then afterwards, they fact-checked it and found out, oh, no, it actually went the other way. There was another reason how X, Y, and Z got that information. And then said, if I knew that, I would have voted differently. But you don't know that information because you just sit there and you say, what happened? And then you get this version, you get that version. And then you think, well, this version is version A is a lot more plausible than version B.

And you think, OK, it has to be the truth. And then you watch it back and you're like, hang on. I got duped at the final tribal council by what they said. So I'm not saying the jurors made a mistake. I'm just saying with the information they had at the point in time, they thought this was the best decision. And as the audience, you're kind of an omnipresent, an omniscient watching down and you have all the information.

Yeah, but that's what makes it beautiful. Like we're not trying to get any right outcome because there is no right outcome, you know, and I don't need, you know, how is the best. I mean, I'm saying this now, you know, like ranked voting, like what's the way to get the right outcome. That's not what we're looking for on this reality TV show in an election. It should be that. Yes. Yeah.

Then we need all the information and we need the best possible voting. But for something like this, I don't want them to go and get the tapes and like what is it be like actual legal jurors like it's beautiful that jurors and it's not even about the season but like it's beautiful that that's why the game is so complicated because it's so flawed because jurors come in so emotional because that's so difficult and i find it interesting even when i disagree with the votes or i criticize the votes and i i love that part of the game um and and in saying that i've been saying that we should exploit that the fact that that exists is such an interesting nuance

strategically that is not being exploited enough people bring up Christoity you know feeding like more of like kind of the lies or at least like amping up the apology I think that needs to be done more and I've been saying that for ages and that's why I think Rachel's biggest mistake from a final tribal council standpoint was ever saying that the that the idol clue was in the fries who is who is fact checking that no one's fact checking that right so at the point where the idol comes out she's already a big threat she already needs to win out or lose it's not about you know upping her threat level because that's done she has a very overt game at the point where she can go and have a funeral at tribal council at the final six and be a huge threat and just have to win out so why are you giving sam the ammo to say

you got it in the fries which was the luckiest that rachel got and then he's going to extrapolate it onto things that are less lucky things that i think are very fair that soul mentioned you know we're gonna have the curse with the discourse forever which we can talk about on like you know soul giving her the advantage when she had already been screwed over when she had the relationship with soul to get the advantage he can talk about that he can talk about the word like he can talk about oh you just relied on these things if she never says she got the clue in the fries and she even if she wasn't like a big idol hunter you know on the way to the well i found it and then i got it from the top then he can't say anything. So that for me, like,

I think that people should be thinking more about what is unknowable to a jury and lying about it. And I would have loved to see Rachel pioneer that. And then at the after show, it'd be like, by the way, I found it in the fries. And then they'd all feel like right idiots, right? But that's great. Because I think that once we get to a final tribal council,

people feel like the game is over. I got to bare my soul like it's confession, but it's not. You're still part of the game and you can still manipulate people and that those people can be the jury yeah no um that's that's interesting i never thought about it like that you can say like i i mean that's that's the thing when i that you have the uh the live reunion show right i mean that's kind of the overflow of just you vote and then you go straight into it um but that's an interesting point like you make well at that point in time the votes the votes have been read or whatever uh you can say what you want it's likely in fact you do you yeah yeah um i know i mean i know people complain about

the uh the library union a lot but i really think it's one of the things i know jeff says it's very rare and this is the most honest it'll be and it's not influenced by social media and that's true but at the same time i mean there's been so many people who sat there really thinking they were going to win and then you have to go through all of that i mean just watching survivor back it's so traumatizing and like you said you have to sit there for go to counseling whatever because you didn't win the game or whatever and now you have to sit there for, go to counseling or whatever, because you didn't win the game or whatever. And now you have to immediately afterwards explain it to Jeff and 10 other people and you don't even know what's going on. So yeah, that's a, that's a maybe different conversation. But in terms of your question about Rachel's legacy,

I think I'm happy that she won because I think she won in a, I don't know if people always want you to win like Kim Spragglin, like you need to control the game from start to finish. Or like Rob from our season, you need to control every single thing that happens from start to finish. But I think she showed us that you can be a human. You can make mistakes and you can get to the bottom and go up and down. And if you are a physical player, that's enough credit. It's respectable enough to win.

And if you use advantages, it's respectable enough to win as if you use advantages it's respected enough to win as well so i think because she played such a well-balanced game you mentioned the word uh consistency i think her game was kind of consistent enough overall that you can get it you can say it's it's a respectable game i don't think anybody's going to discredit it in the future yeah i think there were gaps so it's hard for me to say consistent but i would say varied which is interesting because i'm saying there was like this one node pathway but i think i there were gaps so it's hard for me to say consistent but i would say varied which is interesting because i'm saying there was like this one node pathway but i think her game did that in such a dynamic way like in in the what i've called like the best defensive game of all time um she that defense was so interesting you know like rob said that it was

stealthy and actually like that game's meant to be very overt because again you can go have your funeral and then come back from it and just be loud and then fight back but she did have these stealthy elements of you know spying and then the blind fighting that she did within that then it's obviously physical disadvantages it's so comprehensive and to compare it to Ben and Mike because again I do think it's in that mold but the best of that mold more highly ranked within that mold um you know I think like again people it's a lot of conversation about ben and mike this week i don't know if ben and mike were watching their televisions when they got the drive by about how they're not good winners to andy and rachel and now andy might not vote for rachel because she's

similar to them and i wonder if they were just watching and going like hey um but a lot of ben and mike discourse this week so i feel like i mean they they might be sad but they can uh they can So I feel like... I mean, they might be sad, but they can wipe their tears off with a million one dollar bill. So, I mean, what do they care? Yeah, I mean, money can't buy not being put down by Andy randomly

at Toronto Tribal Council many, many seasons later. But I think, well, I think actually it's been a good thing for Ben and Mike because I think now people are like, well, maybe I do like that. Maybe that's more impressive than I thought.

And I think that people, because they had a bias of not liking Ben and Mike, I think now people are like well maybe I do like that maybe that's more impressive than I thought and I think that people because they had a bias of not liking Ben and Mike you know did overlook and continue to overlook parts of their game Ben and Mike were big threats they both came in as like the blue collar battler of the theme uh Max Dawson had a whole thread about like Mike and that and yes Mike has like the kind of social misstep at the auction that I don't think Rachel ever does but other than that I think the three of them are threats and to a degree they all have to wear parts of that threat level they are not returnees who come in as winners or with that kind of discrepancy that's impossible to protect against like they come in as with to be fair you know with you are who you are

and archetypes are going to be in different ways but like they have to wear and fight against that and the way that they all did that was there was like maybe you know maybe we can talk about like other ways that their threat level increased but the way that they all protected was defending for me like you know you talk about people who win a lot like kim wins four immunity challenges but she's she doesn't rely on them you know rob won five but that wasn't his game i think the difference in the mold of the game is relying on safety and constantly needing to defend um i also think that's fine to again it's not my preference because i love the social maneuvering but like yeah if you can make sure you're safe every time then yeah you'll probably

get to the end and win because it's impressive and you'll always be safe. But I think the reason that someone like me, I might criticize that is because if you don't have control, that feels tenuous to me. Like that is a lot to have to get it done every time without controlling to make sure you'll be safe other ways. But Rachel, firstly they all did get it done. So props to them, not Ben though. Ben, to be fair, he lost and then surprise fire came in we can talk about that but for for you know basically they all did get it done on what is it seemingly a tenuous path so you have to credit

that and Rachel did have other outs you know she did kind of go under the radar and have social connections through the mid-merge when she'd been a threat at the merge and she'd had that aura and Rachel as well like coming in as a threat it is tough because she talked about you know being like the petite Asian woman in the pre-merge she has to show that she's valuable and good at puzzles because otherwise she'll be out the door and that's such an unfair kind of thing put on her archetype as well so at the point where she's becoming a threat she does find ways to protect against it and then she as she said she gets the idol and then she knows she can lean into being the threat a little bit more because she knows

she'll have that further protection so I do think that there are kind of strategic parts of that to put her on the pathway or to protect against the pathway that are impressive so it is it is the defend game for me but I also think that defense was so well-rounded and impressive in the way that you did it yeah and I think it's uh I like this concept you now taught me or woke up my mind about an offensive game and a defensive game um and now you can I mean I think different seasons depending on how it plays out you know like I say sometimes you have like a bigger line running a game and then the small people just get knocked out and at the end

you win and you say, I had played this very aggressive game or offensive game and you won the game. Good. But it's clever this season because like I said,

there was no person, I like when Genevieve said that, like, is there any person who was at the top the whole game? No? Okay. So it kind of means that

in this kind of situation like you say you have to bob and weave and and and um duck and dive and roll and whatnot um it's good that that with this defensive game she could get to the end and still win um doesn't make it less of a victory i mean the game has different elements everything every single season but um yeah it's an interesting concept i never thought of it like that i get wise every time i talk to you shannon no i thought of it rachel told that to me because i because that that so much so defines her game for me also but thank you for saying that but that's what i was thinking about it because even if you think about rachel's pathway you know like every

time she's going to be immune it's like people can do other. But again, if Rachel is going to win out immunity every time, I guess it's just about like taking out physical threats and she's going to get to the end and at that point be a huge threat. So that, I mean, that's the type of game, like it's so, so protected. Like I really see it as like shield, not sword, but the shield was so dynamic. Like it is defensive, but there's offensive moves within that. And even things like that, she has um pointed

out like as an example and like adam spoke to this a bit um on the recap but i i think as well it's not that she necessarily needed to win out every time because she did have a shield in genevieve as an example yeah she wanted genevieve out at seven but then she would have had numbers because she had had numbers at the point where she didn't have numbers she did have a shield in genevieve genevieve wins immunity at six rachel says she wanted Genevieve out at six Andy wanted Genevieve out at six Genevieve was a huge target at six you know even at five if she doesn't win if Genevieve doesn't win possibly Rachel goes as a better fire contender and also they don't know if if Genevieve had an idol but I could see if they want Genevieve out over Rachel fire aside I could see them putting

three votes on Genevieve and they're like okay if it ricochets back Rachel, it'll be what it'll be instead of voting for her. It might have happened, but that's still defensive. You know, having a shield to me, it's still defensive. It's still about surviving. But I think that the way she was doing that was really, really impressive. So yeah, like to compare it to Ben and Mike, who I think had that as well, I think theirs was a little less dimensional in the defensive game, but I would still categorize them all as defensive games and that's why I would rank her you know higher as a winner compared to them because yeah I think that um for yeah for Ben and Mike like let's talk about this because I guess the biggest question we spoke about Ben and Mike than half the cost of a season because they haven't been well I mean like in terms of like better, Mike, than half the cost of a season. Because they haven't been... What season is this?

Well, I mean, like, in terms of... The big thing with Ben is, like, fire came in and saved him. And the big thing with Rachel is, like, the fries came in. You know, you can't spell fries without fire. Oh, my God. Literally, fires and fries. Those were the two things. And that's been the biggest knock against her game.

There's no I in team, but there is an I in fire and fries. And fries, yeah. And those were the things that I think that that is you know she said that that was the luckiest and that is that's the luckiest thing that happened some people say that it was production manufactured like put in the auction for her how do you look at that moment because yeah if she doesn't get the she doesn't get the the clue in the fries she's not i mean how would the manufacturer person i mean that jeff has to put it in it's covered and then you don't know who's gonna buy it so how you kind of do you kind of do in this auction because

the person with the next money will buy the thing like you can game it i don't think they know that though like i can we've complained about that from the new era auction but i don't think they are like they still think it's dynamic they're not right but like but i don't think i mean like also like rachel at that point like it's not the main character of the season it's dynamic. They're not right. But, like, I don't think that, I mean, like, also, like, Rachel at that point, like, is not the main character of the season. It's not Andy. You know, like, I don't see why. I've seen them do it in Australian Survivor. In Australian Survivor, the underdog got a note that was like,

go to this place and we'll give you the clue. And I always thought that was so, so suspicious that if it was an overdog, it would have been like, you want nothing. Turn around and, you know, pass, go, go to jail. But the underdogs. I mean, they're the most two-faced people in the world. Those guys. They can be so, oh no, we want to give everybody a fair edit.

Psych, not really. Well, they don't want to, they've never said that. But yeah, I mean, I will always be suspicious of the blood versus water clue at the auction because they wasn't a clue. It was like, go here to get your clue. And I really feel like it would have been different depending on who got it.

The Fry's Idol, they did not know who was going to get it. I really don't think that they think that's gameable. And I don't even understand why they would give that to Rachel, who at that point, like, you know, Sam, Kyle, Andy, at that point, surely would have been, Genevieve would have been the people that they were. Anyway, I don't think that that's gameable. How do you look? It been the people that they were anyway i don't think that that's good but how do you look but it is lucky it's very i don't think it's manufactured by soul as well right like i mean you can say that's a personal connection

you can't say it's screwed over to be saved by soul like i don't i don't blame that at all yeah no i'm just saying so there are some kind of i mean that's survivor i mean how many people have got how many people who won the game have afterwards said, you know, it's 30% luck, 30% skill, 40% strategy or whatever the case might be.

Everybody admits that there's some luck involved in Survivor. I mean, it's not a, it's not a game of perfect information. So,

it's not an abstract strategy game like chess or checkers or whatever. There is a factor of luck in it. It's, it's not an abstract strategy game like chess or checkers or or whatever there is a comp there's a factor of luck in it it's it's part of the game especially like the prize idol like people like like compared to surprise fire for me i know that the letters might be similar the same but surprise fire was like a whole mechanism people get clues in their napkins all the time and whatever napkin you sit in like that that really is a part of the game for me and I really don't think it's manufactured but that was lucky and I do think she should have lied about it that's my one thing but otherwise um

yeah I think that she she had shields there I think as well you know she might have got a little bit unlucky that if Jen if she goes at six and she doesn't have an idol because Genevieve was immune it's like that's the one person who want immunity that you wouldn't want and otherwise she does have huge shield capabilities so I think she had a lot of outs but they were defensive outs and that's where I see her again yeah yeah anything else we need to talk about about after the winners I think there's so many other things notes I have do you have anything else we need to talk about um yeah I mean I'd like I'd like to talk about like where would you rank rachel like from a macro perspective even just like as a newer new era winner or just very broadly like

as a winner difficult one always rank directly after thinking i will say I will rank it I would say in the upper half or upper 50 percentile of winners because I think it was a more well-rounded game I think it was a little bit of everything

because I think the way I always think about a winner this is just my personal opinion it might be stained it's just what I think I always rank a winner in the is just my personal opinion. It might be stained. It's just what I think. I always rank a winner in the way and they say, if you play the game again

and a winner's at war situation or you play it again, everything's on footing, or you kind of go back in time and you play the same season again, would that person win a game? Some people I think have kind of one-trick ponies and they have one way of winning and they can't same season again, would that person win a game? Some people, I think, have kind of one-trick ponies and they have one way of winning

and they can't do it again. I think Rachel's one of those people who, if she plays a game, she can win a game, if that makes sense. I think a lot of people who, even though they won their seasons, I don't think they would win again if they played from any instance of Survivor.

But I think Rachel's game was diverse enough that she would be able to win again. And that's something I always think of when I think about how good I think a winner is. So I would say in that, I mean, I don't want to name names or upset people, but I think the other winners who were a lot more one-dimensional I don't think would win multiple seasons I think she could if the season is if this season goes back and you replay it I think she would be one person who could be able to win it again yeah well I think that that's a big thing for me is like game versus player and I said last week I think that she'd be a winner who's who's a better player than her game kind of like an adam plight as strong as i do think it is a strong game and i agree like somewhere around

maybe just over half is where i put it from a new era winner on game i would put d jam jam marianne who i think is criminally unarranged with her positioning best move from a winner um i think of the new era like you talked about how she went to the end with her idol that's because she made a big move without the idol and then even got to save it to the final tribal council. I think Marianne stood for me. Then Rachel's game, then like Kenzie, Erica, Gabler is kind of where I put it on game. But I think, yeah, in terms of, of that, that's, that's where I see it for Rachel.

But in terms of as a player, yeah. Like she's so draftable like of everyone from the new era if it was like i've seen their game but they don't know each other and if they're going out to play so it's like a newbie game but i know them like she might be first pick on the board for me as a new era that's what i yeah better verbalize what i said i knew everything about them but they haven't seen each other in the play again um i agree on on skill again like the influence is maybe a little bit of an issue but maybe not with a different cast I also think the cast is very good like I think these players came to play like they were an AI optimized cast and that's why they were all besting each other because you have to

speak to the quality of her competition um but yeah as as a player I think you know I I take umbrage with comparing her to Hayley's brain vs. Brawn game because I think that that's one of the most impressive games ever and it was very in control. At times it was defensive because Australian Survivor is a marathon and she played like 15 different games in that season, but it was super controlled, I think, really most of the time other than the twist-based stuff compared to – but like as a player in that archetype of like physical women,

smart women who can win a lot of challenges. I see that. I mean, Hayley came into her return on the defensive because she was a winner and like had to play a really defensive game. And Rachel just did that, but excelled at it. So I see that. And I think, yeah, I mean, looking at people who I would draft from the new era, I think Jam Jam is always going to be sparkly but underestimated strategic human challenges as well i think charlie's a good one another all-rounder but yeah i think rachel's in the top three for me of who i would draft ever um just on pure skill and i do think that that is different um like

compared to d i have d is the best winning game um And I think we got from what I can kind of see of Dee's play style, I think she's a great player, but I also think we got like the maximum good game from her. Maybe I'm underestimating her. You know, I don't think she was super lucky. She had a good tribe, but you know, Rachel wasn't exactly in a disaster tribe. That might be a big disparity, but like we've had much worse tribes, you know, but Dee does I think maximize a good tribe that she has. And I think we we've had much worse tribes um you know but d does i

think maximize a good tribe that she has and i think we see the best possible game that she can play whereas i feel like rachel is scary like i don't think we've scratched the surface of what rachel can do because the skills are all there and she achieved so much with the limited opportunities if she has more it could be dangerous so from that perspective i think yeah as a player super super high as a game I have her in the middle still very high with with winners I really respect but yeah about fourth of seven for the new era for me that's my disparity who from this season do you think we're gonna see again Andy Genevieve Rachel would be a great winner to come back because again it's kind of

like Sophie Clark actually I think is another great comparison. Like Sophie played one way and she also, she was quite young and then came back and won as a war and played like a godmother type game until, you know, one of the most, you know, impressive votes that Tony pulled off against her. So yeah, Rachel as a winner I think would come back

in a really impressive way. Sam I think was great. I want to talk more about his game. Yeah, what do you think? Teeny, maybe? Jerry's a little out on Teeny. I think we honestly saw what he did. Apparently, like, it didn't translate as much for production.

Really? Yeah. I thought he was quite... I thought he was quite driving the stream. Yeah. I don't know. And I think I'm just looking pretty much... Maybe John. I mean, i don't know and i think i'm just looking pretty much

maybe john i mean i don't know he was a good no no john lover's not coming back again i feel like we got him once and that's done but okay so can we talk about sam as well because i do want to talk because i feel like yeah you know sam i'm i love sam like what did you think of sam's game overall no i mean i i think i think Sam was one of those people. Sam's game was interesting because in the beginning he was in the tribe and they were called John and then he kind of went to Andy and be like, Andy, you know, here's the buoy, come with me. And then later on Andy turned on him, he's like, wait, what? I gave you everything I had and now you're turning on me and then kind of

reconciled with him again at the end which was kind of an interesting arc I think I think the thing with Sam is because he's such a I mean obviously whatchamacallit

Kyle won all the like these rodeo game carnival game challenges um i think if carl wasn't there i think sam would have won a lot more of these uh these rodeo game challenges but i think those people always struggle um to i think somebody like sam always has this kind of, oh, I am this big guy. I am the kind of like, exactly all the things that Vinny said, like I'm the capital of the football team, whatever.

And I think it's a very difficult stereotype to come in and then get to the end and then to still say in a very nice way that you should vote for me. I enjoyed Sam. I think what was good to see from him is usually these guys play games

that are kind of in a position of dominance where they just like mow down the competition. And he was kind of the opposite. He was down and then he had to play

from, you know, an uphill game all the way to the end. And sometimes those people who are kind of these big dominant players or like alpha males or whatever you want,

if they don't get a footing to yeah yeah yeah disintegrate or become like very hostile um or they just the game's crumbled and i think sam had a lot of grit like every time he's like i'm i'm gonna come back i'm gonna make a play whether it's i need to reconcile with andy whether it's i need to make a challenge whether it's I need to now win a food award and get the right number of people to come with me. I respect that as a person. I always hate it when people say, oh, this Melfinger could have done

because this, this, and this happened. Every single time in Survivor, a lot can change in 24 hours. And someone was one of those people really like grabbed it and said, well, I'm going to make my own destiny in this game. And I respect that. I like that a lot from him.

Yeah, I think the ways that he said, find a way to find a way, the ways that he found were, again, really difficult to see because they were more subtle and strategic and also because they were being hidden from us in the edit. Truly, when I read that article the night before the finale where he said how much he'd already thought of Operation Italy, I was like, oh, he's losing at the end to Rachel because they would have shown that if he's going to win and if

anything they want to they can't build that up against her because again the fandom won't understand that even if he had done that putting rachel ahead of him and then sitting next to her makes it an unwinnable game which should be obvious i think because i think like a lot of the people complaining about you know sam and i haven't seen a lot of it but a lot of people complaining about sam losing to rachel if the genders were swapped in the archetype i don't think any of those people would say anything about sam winning in rachel's archetype and literally it's actually such an interesting exercise in like gender-based discourse because they are literally playing across type which um and if you're still complaining that the man you know lost or

it's like that's usually like you would love this game to win as a fan for the people saying it if that makes sense um but yeah I love what I love about Sam as a character is that he has like the bravado in the water when he's like going to fire and he's like puts on this front but like really he's talking in confession about how he's so scared and he doesn't want to look stupid and he's actually just this like young guy who's like got a soft heart and he's like the the jock that looks like a theater kid like he is the Troy Bolton that we've spoke about from the pre-season and I really really love that from a character perspective and I think from a player perspective like all of those things are things I enjoy like the little moves he's spoken about in ex-interviews the fact that he had Andy as an emotional shield basically after Operation Italy because people would be mad at him you know

you can say I said oh well oh, well, you know, Andy went above him and he didn't do it. But in knowing that he had Andy as that shield, if he's pushing that out of revenge, he is controlling that to a degree, maybe less on the Sierra vote, but there's some level of control there. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of moves there that he's making that are just like really subtle and strategic. And I think that he was really really

good I mean he spoke to it so well I think at final tribal council where did you where did I'm gonna throw out some of these kind of debates for you and where do you sit on it because like one of the big things was Genevieve's idol because he was like you know we bluffed you with that and she was like well we were always gonna vote for Genevieve I think that was a big thing on bluffing the idol. Like who wins that kind of battle for you on some of these like intricacies? That was so funny for me. That was such a funny moment

because they make up this idol, right? And then like everybody's convinced. And then he goes back and it's like, guys, the idol's fake. And they're like, you took this once. Why are we going to believe you now? So it's weird that you i mean most most way it goes up most of the times it goes the opposite way you go like hey listen i have an idol like no you don't like really i have this i look down and i'm like yeah you're lying man this is the other one it's like it's not an

idol like no we know it is like it's really not my yeah yeah it was confusing for them so it was it was it was quite good seeing it the other way around um i think this i think it's one of those things where i think you need to kind of see what happened and then just take it apart and look at it differently like they had this plan operationally italy like so many things like dominoes had to knock each other over for it to work and then it did work and i think you have to kind of wrap it up and say okay that's operation italy the mission was a success put it in the box i mean you say okay now what what let's let's let's see what happened now i don't think you should kind of confuse it because whatever happens afterwards they had to do operation italy to get into that position so it's not like they made a mistake they did every single thing right

and I think she just kind of leveraged the idol afterwards yeah and then he tried to stop it well that

yeah that's yeah yeah and then I mean I mean she still had the word out right well

at six so yeah well he well I think this is the thing is like it was so defensive like that and that's the defense is that yeah oh we bluffed you with the idol and like they did they bluffed to the split on seven although she said if she was vulnerable she would have played her vote block but it's like that's the thing it's like you bluffed it but i was immune you know like it wasn't going to be me i saved myself in my perfect defensive game and if i hadn't saved

myself i would have still had the vote block and that would have been my other defense while she also did have numbers and then even at five she's like oh we had the numbers that would have ricocheted on you because we split it I spoke about last week that split didn't make sense like yeah if they were bluffing it if there was a real idol like you know they could have ricocheted on Tatini so it's not about like having the numbers split because they didn't but also i guess at this point they both wanted genevieve out but also rachel's immune right so it's like you know even like at that point it's like oh well if genevieve i didn't care if genevieve was lying because i don't like i was gonna make it through and i'm

gonna win out to the end and i was gonna sit here with my many many immunity wins so i think that's the thing for me is like will we bluff genevieve's idol like if i were her i would say like i didn't really mind like i wanted genevieve out i was always voting for genevieve i was hoping she would go and if she didn't anyone else could go and i would beat anyone at the end i guess you could say well i mean like yeah if genevieve had an idol there's nothing they can do about it and that's a harder immunity competitor but like at every point i think the defense is but i was i was i defended myself in my perfect defensive game what bluff or what you know like i'm still i was still gonna be there and survive to this point to talk about it i think that that for me is the bigger thing then whether they

believe genevieve or not because i said last week it doesn't really matter whether she believes genevieve she should be voting for genevieve anyway on the one percent chance that genevieve goes home and if teeny goes gets ricocheted out or if somehow there's a split vote with Sam, which, you know, wouldn't happen if they were working together, then Sam, whatever, either way, you know, take the shot at Genevieve. And if she goes, she goes. And if not, I'm here anyway. I'm here.

I mean, that's one of the mega things about this season, which I actually liked, was the moment Jeff went Accio, shot him a dog and just grabbed all the men and they were out of the game. I think that was kind of way better because now it's not like, oh, he's going to play, shot him a dog, he's not going to be a swimmer dog. Then they had to come up with other ways

and like, oh, no, I'm making fake idols, which just shows you, if you just let the people play, they'll make up these things on their own. You don't need to give them like everybody a dice roll to get this kind of um kind of gameplay and on top of that because they were not shouting the dogs i mean i know rachel played hers earlier fair but because they want to shut up the dogs people a lot more like okay this is what i'm going gonna do i'm sorry bad news it is you tonight and then people kind of knew what was gonna happen so they kind of made plans and then kind of for the game so in a weird way i think the shot is getting taken out of a game in a weird way kind of spiced up all these other plans which made it a lot more exciting than some of this very elaborate strategy we see to just get rid of a shot in the docks um

yeah well the final seven would have been the last time to play the shot in the dark and i'm so glad there wasn't a subplot of operation italy of like whether genevieve's too scared to even go in on the three two two and plays a shot in the dark like those votes only work perfectly with the one vote slim majority because everyone voted and we all knew they were voting and we could now exactly three two to it although if sam played a shot in the dark again he couldn't his no he's yeah he could have hit seven and if he got it wrong he could have said well i didn't vote incorrectly see you sam i see you with the with the with the vote blocks but yeah i mean on sam generally i thought um yeah i thought that he was great too i thought it was an interesting battle. What do you think about Kyle voting for Sam?

I thought he was going to get two votes. Yeah, I thought he was going to get two votes. I thought he was going to get Sarah's vote and then I thought he was going to get Kyle's vote because I think they were kind of both doing this, you know, they were both these like big bro guys and like talking about the challenges whatever um and i think kyle saw a kind of competitor in sam which um not that i'm saying rachel isn't competitor not at all um but i think they had that kind of connection of like yeah we are the two

it's just interesting because Carl's 31 and Sam's 24 so that means a 7 year delta between them the way they kind of bonded on the island you would think they were kind of different frat bros or whatever yeah

so it's something I talk about our season a lot people are like oh what the hell you like funny call I'm like what I mean my birthday can do with what I want but I always say

in our season I've said it many times I think a 6-4-0 somebody who's been there and somebody who's watched it I think it's a good representation of I think

you know the games that we played I think if Rachel won 9 or 8-0-0, I think 7-1-0 is maybe a good representation

of the season. I don't think Carl made a mistake. I think it just, yeah, I think it's a representation of the season. I think Rachel played the better game of the three finalists, but I don't think Sam's game was bad enough that she got zero votes. I think one or two votes is

from what I saw on the couch. I mean Saul said this like we're all I wrote it down. He said you know we're all criticizing on TV and then you get there and you're like oh you don't know shit. That's his words. And I think it's the same way. We weren't there but

for sitting on the couch I think 7-1- 710 what i saw the fair reflection of the uh the outcome yeah i mean i do think like he's entitled to whoever he wants to for me that's the first thing like he seemed to have an important social relationship with sam i want to talk about this first firstly before just talking about a video i saw right before we came on which where carl explains but in terms of like him voting for sam and again like how much you believe of what he's saying now versus like he said he was really close with Sam I don't know what else he's gonna say in the after show um yeah I mean I think that he is entitled to

that relationship I think that there's something interesting around the fact that like Carl did have a lot of these bro-y relationships which is also valid maybe you know not as much of something I would not respect or like but like factor in as like the fact that like that you know not as much of something I would not respect or like but like factor in as like the fact that like that you know women's alliance I feel like you know when you're like fighting against something which the women's alliances often try to and fail to but like even like you know some like minority alliances I feel like that's different to kind of like throwing out but again this is what social relationships will lean to that's why the diversity initiative is so important because like like will see like and I feel like for Carl he's entitled to that relationship I just think it's something that's

interesting um to note I also think that like again like as a threat Carl was there in the threats at the time with like Genevieve Sam and himself which actually I credit Rachel for a lot so much through the mid game that she was like the top of the underdogs while Sam was in the biggest threat group is actually like I credit Rachel for that disparity but you know Kyle said that Sam's talking about how he got votes which maybe you would see as a knock against you but he has to like build up that he was a threat who Rachel also couldn't get out like she was so I think that's impressive so I think yeah I think he's totally entitled to vote for her I actually said this on Twitter I always want everyone to get a vote just for like the fact that I know how traumatic zero votes is and like my bleeding

heart is like I want everyone to get a vote like for me a 6-1-1 does not matter to an 8-0 i don't need the unanimous victory for the stats i'd so much rather someone feels a little bit like affirmed in their game just like even the way cassidy went to james and was like did you vote for me like the meaning of that to have some acknowledgement how difficult this is it's something i prefer but this is what kyle said i think it was in a cameo video that was posted to Twitter he said he knew that Rachel would win he thought Rachel should win he likes them both but he wanted to give Sam second place because he thought Sam's game was better than Sue I don't know how much that was on like the Sue thing I mean look honestly if Sue Luke comes third for that relationship with Kyle which I do think she had a big part to play and I can't say that

it was 100% on her because again, I think the edit showed it one way and I wasn't in that dynamic. But like, yeah, that was a really bad social dynamic that like maybe they both have to wear. And as a juror, he can make her wear that. And that actually would fit. And I also think he's entitled to do that.

But he's saying that he, that's what he did. He did the second place vote. He did the Monica Culpepperpper over jovis vote for sam yeah no no you're right everybody can can vote whoever wants to um i haven't seen i haven't seen that clip but i know i mean it's like a lot of i think it was a very niche clip i don't know how i happened to see it but yeah that is what he said okay okay um no but it's it's interesting because i mean i think that was one of the big i think wasn't that one of the big conversation points at winners at war where some so many people

wanted to give michelle votes because she thinks because they thought she deserved second place but yeah they knew that there was like thing like the whole thing between tony um and they didn't want to make sure that tony lost so that they gave tony's yeah so yeah i think also jurors want to be right maybe and they want to like feel like they're apart so there's so much that goes into it just in a perfect world i would love for no one to ever get zero votes again because it just is heartbreaking but like i think kyle's entitled to do what he wants with that vote um i don't think anything's particularly bad on voting for sam at all i have an opinion about Kyle.

I thought that's my personal opinion about his game in Survivor. I've said this many times, and you and I have spoken about this, how tribes who lose early, like, go to Tribal two or three or four times, and then kind of, you get to Tribal six or Tribal eight or whatever, and you lose two, three

people, and you get, like, you've got really small points. Although small core people usually make very deep runs and get six or five or eight or whatever, and you lose two, three people, and you get to that really small point, all those small core people usually make very deep runs and get to the end and do well, because you learn how to fight and build the social connections, and you learn how to scheme and wheel and deal, whatever. And I mean, if you see this season, I mean, they lost John, they got up,

they lost John, right up they lost John right and then they lost Annika pretty much and then kind of you know they all got to the end well they all got to the end

you have Sam and Rachel and then if you look at the the Lavo the Lavo guys they lost Asia Sean

and Rome and then they're like Genevieve and Tini were really good even though Tini was out of those she was really good at kind of you know scrambling and making sure she gets to the end all the time now Tuku went to travel second the Verda TK Tuku went to travel second Verda TK and then we didn't

go ever again right um and I think if you think about i'm just maybe i'm wrong i'm just trying to imagine because kyle is this kind of i see him almost almost as this younger version of keith this kind of very friendly uh good economy games country guy who's just like he's not he doesn't overthink life he's just fun to be around i think had he been in the tribe that went to travel three or four times, like let's just say that two of them comes out, he would have been so gritty and be like, I need to make votes. I need to make this connection. I need to understand. I need to find a way.

And then you get into merge of only the two of you and you go like, okay, there's only two of us. We need to make a plan. And then you start roping in people and being a lot more strategic and thinking about what's going to happen, not just what's going to happen this, but we need to think long-term. There's only two of us.

How do we get more people? And I think that's the type of games where these type of players do really well in this season, rather, as if they lose a lot, but they are still physical players and they can navigate through to the end. Because I think now what happened is they went once and then i got complacent he was chilling in the hammock making all these connections and just like and then he goes to travel and then he said he goes to the

challenges and tells jeff jeff the moment i don't win immunity is the moment i'm going home he's not wrong but he didn't kind of focus on all the other stuff so it's just such a very interesting phenomena for me where i mean i'm I'm using Carl now as an example, but you see it so many times in a season in this, especially the new era, about tribes who don't go to tribal council often or early. You think, oh, we go with this big majority into the merge, but they're not battle-hardened.

They're not pressure-tested. And they don't learn that skill set early on and they struggle to kind of navigate the merge and make it to the end so it's a small sample size but it's just an observation i've i've seen a lot of the and survivor um but i think it's some of these players detriment um well i don't think that's true of kyle though because i feel like kyle you know kyle is not a very innovative innovative player like Kyle is on the bottom and still doesn't put his hand in the bag to go for the vote block like I don't know how much he could have been trained in the pre-emerge basically and I think it is an interesting comparison because I think if we're going to talk about

defensive games and Kyle's going to win a lot of immunities until he goes home I think that that is the one note defensive game which again to me is very different like comparing that to the fact that then rachel's going to take the baton of winning immunities but then she also have you know has shields as an out she's so aware of her game she also is adding all these other elements she's maximizing it to its effects you know carl jumped on like i think just a soul vote and then otherwise like used up his shield with gabe he didn't think you know if he was thinking more innovatively he would think okay let okay, let me, even when I'm immune, you know, keep more shielding, keep Gabe as a shield.

I think that what he lacked in all of that, like obviously he just had on the pathway of immunities. And I think it's interesting to compare it to the other immunity challenge beast in the season who was Rachel. And I think when you make that comparison to at least someone in the season, if it's too much on Mike and Ben, you see that she was the like fully formed defensive player if they're both being defensive at different points in the game she had a lot more that she was giving to that um in so many different ways and i think

that that like that makes a disparity pretty clear when we're saying that the ranking is way higher than these other defensive players um because it's just in the way that she did it because i don't think carl carl carl common immunity is just like Rachel can, but I don't think he can do the other things that I think we see, that disparity and the fact that she goes and gets, you know, you know, the vote block. And then she uses all these things so well. And she's considering shields and stuff the whole time.

And she's kind of like leaning into the threat level when she needs to and then protecting. Whereas Kyle was just like really on the back foot. That's the defensive game. But it's like fighting for your life in a way that just had nothing to build from it in a way that Rachel, I think really did. I just want to mention, I know you probably, or you have talked about this,

but that challenge about the block of oath. Yes. Oh my God. What an epic challenge. I mean, what a great design. You ruined my life, Jacques. It's over. No, my life I mean what a great what a great design you ruined my life Jacques it's over nah my life's over Jacques like genuinely I don't think you understand

how many weeks ago was that? four or five weeks ago? no it wasn't it was like what three four weeks ago? level 281 of Watersort Watersort

it got me back into Watersort which is an addictive phone game where you have to put the colors back in the thing and I genuinely can't stop 281 why i don't it's a drug when did you when did you get your um your wordle first time was it between like last time we spoke i remember some years that was the best part of my year by the way when i got wordle in yeah yeah yeah that was that was in like september maybe or maybe like october yeah what was the

word yeah what was the word it was cloud cloud is that your starting word not anymore but yeah it was every day it was crazy do you actually want to hear the story on the brief tangent of when i got wordle in one yeah absolutely tell me okay every night at midnight peter and i do wordle together and then connections okay but sometimes peter goes to sleep because he's a responsible person and i'm up to 3 a.m now playing water sword not at the time but so then sometimes I get so excited so I just put in cloud because I just want to see what will happen and like also Peter and I have like jump off words if there was like just one yellow oh I might do point like I can so I might go do the jump off words just because I'm so excited to do Wordle and I

don't want to wait till he comes home from work the next day. So I put in cloud and then it turned green and I yelled. And because I was next to him in bed, he got woken as well. And then I was like, Oh my God, I got word on mom without you. And he missed it. And he was not pleased. He wasn't pleased, but I was so excited to do it. And I got it in one. And then he was unhappy, but I was like, don't be unhappy. This is the coolest thing that's ever happened to us. Okay.

I'm so glad you asked. It was literally the best thing that ever happened to me. Thank you for that. I'm very happy. Other than the drop win. Yeah. I mean, I don't word all the time, but my word always used to be horse.

And then I checked, there's like this website that shows you all the words I never started. And then horse, I saw one day was actually the word of the day. That would have been nice. Yeah, we do it every day. We don't miss it. That's why. Sorry, you were saying about the challenge before i started talking about water sword no i'm saying the challenge is quite epic about that whole thing

like being like spooling unspooling and then falling into the into the water that was such an epic kind of uh challenge design i don't know who came up with that but such a mega mega cool challenge i've never seen something like that but then the most bizarre thing is like it drags the whole like table into water so what if you like have your hand in and stuck or like yeah no that's good yeah your bracelet gets caught and we're like oh sorry these guys haven't bought it well the stakes are high you better practice we can get this person out of the water yeah well that's why you go to practice water sort i genuinely that that was fun but like i need an intervention on water sort so and i paid i paid eight dollars to get fewer ads not even to get no ads it didn't even work i still have some ads let's just play it

i just wait for the ads i get freaking junky you have a a new york times description or you only do wordline connections i only do word online connections. I get New York Times articles a different way through less paid means sometimes. Because I've recently started doing it and I'm playing that the one with you had hit like the the Spanagram it's called whatever. With the letters that's quite cool. Yeah I get that as an ad sometimes when I'm playing WaterSort. Okay.

Yeah. You should download WaterSort. That's so good. It's so good. Anyway, it's fine. This isn't an ad for WaterSort. It has enough ads, but... I mean, yeah.

Yeah. Okay, well, is there anything else? Should we get to the Chizzy? I want to talk about the Rome exit interview controversy, but I'm happy to do it after the Chizzy. I don't know if... Yeah, we can do it. I'm just checking a few of my notes uh no shot in the dark um yeah i think that said everything um oh one i mean the one thing that's

not really it's not i mean i just want i just meant no but i think i want to mention it um i think what i liked about this season is a lot of the time, we have all these kind of personal flashbacks, like the origin story of every single player. We didn't have that once a season. So I think we did have in-season flashbacks, but it was Survivor-related. And I felt that was kind of refreshing.

I know Jeff and I go back and forth about should we put it in or whatever. But I find it kind of refreshing that the only stuff we saw was Survivor related. There was very little kind of, oh, this is my story about how I got X, Y, and Z, diagnosed with this or whatever. And we just like watched the game within the context of Survivor. Not that I'm saying we should diminish anything else.

I just felt like a lot of these past seasons have just kind of won over current themes and it was good to kind of just have a season where it was just about Survivor. And I think this even though we have now two hour episodes or 90 minute episodes, whatever, I think like

the production people have started filling it in with kind of these flashbacks. And I think just letting the people play survivor without shorting the dogs actually makes compelling enough tv i don't know why they don't understand i don't know why the production people keep trying to i know that like jeff said you know it's they're kind of here and then they go underground and they do a lot of things and they decide and they pop up again and you kind of have the audience have to catch up with what they've decided during golf season two i get that but um i just felt it'd be quite refreshing to just now play um play survival without all these aspects and just let the game be uh front or center but interestingly i think what people

have said as a as a bit of a gap is that like right we didn't know that much about Rachel beyond the game um as a winner like I think less compared to a lot of other people but then also that you as you're saying I think that's a really good point that was true across the board this season like even the people who had big journey edits like Andy and Teenie it was very much in game I'm trying to think like how was the family man but like who really stands out to you is like having a big personal story like i feel like it was very game based i i know people say they don't like it or i mean i understand all the logistical reasons all the casting reasons why they don't want to do themes but that's why that's the advantage of themes you're like okay

we have heroes healers hustlers i get it this person is a hustler that's what he has to do in his life so you know much this podcast sorry yeah yeah so much ben talks this podcast the hero healer hustler exactly exactly so just having kind of a theme even if it's just millennials versus gen x like here's a bunch of young people yes a bunch of old people and then you play the game you don't have to horseshoe the theme into every single conversation but at least you kind of in your mind you just like put one uh what's a plucker in engels what's it called uh like a label or a other thing you put on the dress right uh dr ross what's like a tag oh yeah name tag yeah let's just one one tag which you put on your mind like okay this this is the brain versus brawn uh season okay these person he's in the brain tribe i get it um so anyway um

yeah i mean i'm partial to the backstories i like a lot of the personal content i thought the season could have pushed it a little more but now that i'm realizing like not just for rachel like across the board it was pretty low on personal content but there was so much game personal content like genevieve all that stuff was like in the game it was pretty low on personal content, but there was so much game personal content. Like Genevieve, all that stuff was in the game. It was an interesting way to go about it. And it was compelling in its own way. I do love a backstory, but yeah, it's quite unique as a season from that

because I'm really looking at it and struggling to find a contestant who had a big backstory or some big out-of-game thing. With John and Asia, they're like, we are podcasters. And like, I know you, you're a podcaster. So that's like this whole thing in the beginning. And I thought they were kind of, now they're like we are podcasters and like I know you you're a podcaster so that's like this whole thing in the beginning

and I thought they were kind of now they're going to tell everybody's story and then we just stopped like off the two people yeah that's true I mean like they always have to come in

and talk about their traumas and like yeah I'm a podcaster I think that's a very fair trauma so that would be my trauma okay let's talk about the

let's do the chizzy take it away Jacob are we now doing where good things go and talking about the chizzy yes and I've's do the Chizzy. Take it away, Jacob. Are we now doing Where Good Things Go and talking about the Chizzy? Yes, and I've got some controversial takes on it. Take it away, Jacob. Take it away, Weinstein and MC Kala. One, two, three.

One, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one. Three, two, one. All right. This is better because usually when we do this, like peeking behind the curtain, you just say, we're going to do the jazzy and then you cut

and then we drink water and then we come back and then it gets added in afterwards post-production. Now with the live feed, I actually get to groove along with the tune.

So I like this version better. It was really easy to always put the music in. It was one button. I just didn't know how to do it and i never bothered to learn jac i'm gonna rig the chizzy are you gonna rig it okay shouldn't have showed me this i'm gonna rig the chizzy oh my god i can't i'm like i'm feeling anxious about it i decided to rig the chizzy um okay do you want me to explain that

or do you want to give your points before i rig the chizzy explain what you want to say i have a question what happens in the event of a draw that's my question in the event of a tie everyone wins that's what we decided last season when drew well not last season last year when drew and d did tie um yes so that's the way that we went about it. And then everyone would have to get mugs, which Rob would have to pay for. And okay, here's what we're at in the chizzy, right? Genevieve's on 25 points.

If Rachel gets six points, which I assume you're going to give her three, I'd be shocked if you don't. And I'd probably have, I'd probably be upset. But if she gets six points and she's on 25, but Sam is on 22 points. So Sam could still get four for being, I think pretty clearly the second best player in the episode.

He had a great final tribal council. I think even slightly, even better than Rachel's final tribal council wins fire. Again, he'd be a solid winner if he could get Rachel out, but he didn't get Rachel out. But if he gets two points from me and two points from you, he's going to win the Chizzy on one point,

even though obviously he did not win the game. Or if you give him two points, I could give him one point and I could make a three-way Chizzy tie. And I'm going to do it. So I'm going to do it. I, I, I believe in the sanctity of a Chizzy. Yeah. I believe in the sanctity of a Chessie. Yeah.

So I don't want to be in a position where I need to compromise this thing we've been doing. I'm not asking you to. I'm happy to get my hands dirty. If you are willing to take the fallout. Debase myself. And take the hit. I am now putting in disclaimer that I am washing my hands in innocence. No, you're complicit.

You're here right now. I will go first. Okay. And then I am not in any way implicated in this blasphemous decision that is being made about the Chessie. So I will go first. Okay. Yeah.

This is very dramatic. But I will go first. Yes. This is very dramatic, but I will go first. Yes, I will give one Chessie point to... I'll stop at three. I'll give three to Rachel. One, we spoke about it at length. There's not too much to say. I will give Ashley Pericci two to Sam.

I think, like you said, he made fire. He came second. It would be a a crime not to then I mean there's four people left um and then I would

I have to give my final one I'm giving it to Tini I think had Sue done a bit more with Idol

um maybe you could have made a case but I think Tini was Tini was pre-season my winner pick so I'm so that's not

why I am giving her the chizzy. Not the reason why. But I think she had a compelling arc, and I know a lot of people online complain about gamebots, and then now they're saying she's emotional and this and that. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so people

should just watch the game and not say negative stuff about people if they don't like them. keep your negative opinion to yourself hurt people hurt people so don't um and uh yeah so that's why i give my three to one is a rachel sam and teeny so i know if you want to update the spreadsheet and then i can't update it in real time but we can well so here's where here's i want to explain something first up all right because i i texted my brother and i said i'm gonna read the chizzy people have been messaging me saying i think we should rig should you rig the chizzy and and he was like how do you live with yourself and i was like hey you think it's easy doing the chizzy okay maybe it's the crawl and we spoke about it exactly you think it's easy

being and you think it's all fun and games i was like you you you don't want to know how the sausage gets made but you're happy to eat the hot dog you know everyone's okay with a three-way chizzy tie because that's so fun and exciting and it feels right but when i have to come in and rig the chizzy i'm the bad guy i'm the crazy person and he was like i don't even recognize you right now and anyway i wouldn't bore you with the back and forth but my point is I want to maintain a relationship with my brother but I care more about getting a three-way chizzy tie and the reasons that I've that I've retconned this to make sense for me is firstly the chizzy does have gaps is it is it perfect we've and we've said this whole time earlier in the season I said the chizzy is not

perfect okay there are gaps here are the gaps Genevieve's edit in the first three episodes was atrocious you definitely get three points looking at it now she got two points so she should have got six points she got two because of the edit so that is already like probably Genevieve would have run away and won had we known how good she was on early lover we didn't know that damn to be fair the gap in the chizzy Randy Newpool who does the charts went and looked and said you know because we when we have three people we do a two one one and there's a worse one and a better one and he had one better one so he'd actually be one point ahead of where he's even at if it was in a regular three two one if those were points anyway it's hard to game it when there's three people but that's a little bit of a numerical issue then yeah rachel i mean rachel's got these big swings where she

individually wins like as well as sam did in this episode the second he left rachel win immunity his only job is to make sure rachel doesn't win immunity and then doesn't win fire immediately wins immunity that's a loss for everyone is he two-thirds as good as her when she's wanted in the first 10 minutes I don't think so so I do think that that makes sense um you know like I think yeah at the point where he's even trying to argue you wanted me out well the same thing she was first you were second she prefer if second was out but you needed first out and the game was lost at that point. He did as best as he could, and it was still a 7-1 loss. So is he two-thirds as good as her? I think not. So I've also come up with some stuff for why I'm going to give two points to Tini.

Firstly, three points to Rachel. That puts her on 25 with Genevieve now, tying at the top. And how much of a travesty if that rivalry wasn't cemented in a chizzy win in a tie chizzy win two points to teeny for me I am firstly I love teeny so much and I genuinely think this isn't necessarily a game thing but the way the teeny spoke to their own projections about how they were projecting on Sam and was so vulnerable in that and on a global stage put up a spotlight to their own insecurities and weaknesses I think most people human as a young human I think it's phenomenal and I think the way that Sam has received that and given so much grace is also phenomenal and for two young people I think

that they are exceptional I say young they're like seven years younger than me but anyway it's tough on a global stage and I don't think I don't think most people could do that at any age so I'm super impressed with that I think as well like we were pretty hard on Teenie um in the last few weeks falling for Operation Italy but even hearing from some of the exits there are still gaps that Teenie clearly thought that they were getting one over on Genevieve and Sam in Operation Italy or maybe didn't consider that even consider us the way that the they would talk like Sam has spoken about the relationship with teeny then like i see how teeny thought they were like a proxy in like what ended up being the andy spot to genevieve and sam so we were hard not that i would have ever given teeny points i think that

was but i just want to say you know we get a lot of information from the exits after the finale and i see how teeny was judging those relationships and those working relationships even though i do also judge teeny for thinking that they were like single-handedly getting one over on Genevieve and Sam without thinking that they would think there'd be a split and would be trying to like be like, well, what's happening with the split. And anyway, this was weeks ago, but anyway, I'm giving two points to Teenie on a human and a real people.

Then one point I'm giving to Sam. So now Sam is with Genevieve and with Rachel. And do we feel good about it? Am I spiraling? Is this okay? I feel is this fine? Listen, Shannon. I've watched Taylor Soprano's. I've watched

Breaking Bad. I've seen Tony Soprano justify his actions to his wife or the other people. I've seen Walter Watt trying to justify saying what he's doing is doing it for his family even though he keeps killing people after he's made more money than he needs.

You can do whatever justification you want. I'm watching my news and I understand. You can do whatever justification you want i yes you made the choosing i gave my points in good faith uh as an honest citizen over rachel but then i'll probably i'll i'll break it again i'm gonna do the math i'll keep breaking. But if you told me if I did the opening podcast and I gave my Chessies and then we get to the end and then

legit or unaltered way, it doesn't matter. You say there was a three-way tie this season between Genevieve, Sam and Rachel. I would say well-deserved. Good representation of the season. I think they each deserve a Chessie Cup. That's good.

Well done. So I'm not happy. Exactly. Exactly. It feels right. Oh, you eat the hot dog? I'm happy with the outcome. But you don't want to sell the sauce it gets made.

Yep. So I'm happy with the outcome. You agree? You agree with what's been done? I agree with the outcome. But not how it was done. But it's unfortunate to have to be the person rigging the shizzy okay it's unfortunate to give up my integrity all of that stuff is not great it's not right it's not but i think i think that it makes sense to have this three-way tie right and can i say as well has there ever been a three-way tie no there was

only one two-way tie a year ago and we're gonna send out a ton of mugs to the point where literally one sixth of the cast is getting mugs nothing has meaning but it feels right and it's good sam's game was great rachel's a great winner genevieve paula all of them will get mugs and i think that and also one more thing and how i justified it for myself. Yes. Teenie to be fair is better at fire than we gave him credit for. And is one wind blow away from, I think a hundred thousand dollars, I think solidly sports for teeny. And I thought like Sam has confirmed an exit that he didn't like position the fire any which way to protect against the wind so one gust of wind is what separates teeny and sam from possibly being in the seven one

position so it doesn't really matter have i done enough to wash my hands of this or is it still not okay oh we'll we'll leave it over we'll see what people say my twitter blows up and i get notifications people will love this people will be uh all the uh youtube chats because now it's it's a video as well so we'll check those comments i don't read uh you not read them or do you read them no i don't read youtube comments i don't i try not to read anything that isn't sent directly to me although sometimes people do send mean things to me directly but like i don't need to see what people say about me when they think when i'm not meant to be listening i've done a lot of work in therapy for that i actually got over that addiction checking the comments about myself and now i need to get over my addiction to water sort so i think if i can get over that i can probably when are you gonna get over your

addiction shannon never ever i literally i said that to peter a few months ago i said are we just gonna do well every day until we die and i hope we do it's the highlight of my day you know clouds gonna come around and be the word a second time you're gonna have a different word and it's gonna be cloud and you're gonna be so disappointed when all the english words and the five letter vocabulary has been used and you come back full circle and second time it comes around firstly my other word might now come up which would be good how many five-letter words are there in the i can't type so fast in the english language it's not coming up this is good podcasting okay i'm gonna let you know what my phone updates

but anyway three-way jizzy tie three-way jizzy time tie. Three-way jazzy tie. There are 158,000 five-letter words. That's going to be your next word, three. That would be a terrible word. It's a terrible word, but I mean, sometimes these words come up, and then you can say, I've had it. Shannon, can I share something with you? Can I present my screen? No, actually.

Can you? I can't see see it because that's not you have to add you have to do share screen yeah wait wait i don't know if you can okay in the meantime well done oh it's gonna work well done to genevieve rachel and sam coach is the winners okay what are we looking at are you looking at my screen my screen yeah that's your page oh it is why are you taking it away? Okay, good. There we go. Okay.

You know the band Linkin Park, right? Yes. Okay. Long story. I'm not going to go into the details, but it's my favorite band of all time. Okay. They made a new album.

It's called From Zero. That's nice. I don't know if you know this. I don't. They've made a new album. After Chessling Beddington died, they got this girl singing for them, Emily Armstrong. It is hardcore cool, really.

It is mega. It is my favorite band of all time. And they made an album after nobody in the world thought they would make music again. I watched them live in London. It was insane. Mind-blowing experience watching them live. Okay. I'm confused about where we're at.

Sorry? I'm confused about where we're at. Sorry? I'm confused about what's happening. You will see quite clearly. You mentioned to me that you once did a podcast with Rob where you mentioned all the Taylor Swift songs and then afterwards he didn't care about, you mentioned all the albums and then he didn't care. Yeah.

Oh, have you been doing it? Oh my gosh, Rob! So if you scroll down. Is that this year? Here's the name of, here's the song list, the track list of the album. I'll scroll in slightly if you cannot see it. Okay.

I have in this podcast, because it wasn't that much strategy, I had to find some other way to make it interesting. I think we got to a lot. I have used all of these songs in the podcast. Yeah. It means I gave you everything i had it's uh it's uh i didn't say i g y e i h i just said i gave you what i had which is what they say in the song you said the emptiness machine i did i said uh it wasn't what season gave me one season 43 i said this wasn't the emptiness

machine of season 43 oh and i laughed at that but i didn't think there was anything wrong with that because i was like that is some way that someone might refer to that scene that wasn't empty though okay the cody bit was very good i'm just saying i'm just saying i don't know if you are going to impress like i'm like you said rob wasn't a person you mentioned all the uh but i mentioned every single album every single song from this album sorry? I'm wearing my tiara and you thought you'd get one over on me I'm the queen this week no it's not getting you I was just saying that because last time we did the Taylor Swift thing

and there was a musical element to it and I couldn't do it again so I just wanted you to know that this album is cool if you like Linkincoln park and this kind of rap and rock music and uh just in in terms of not having so much strategy to focus on i kind of gave myself a new objective this episode is to see how many of these songs oh can i do it in order and if you would i'm glad you don't know the album because you would have maybe picked up on it

um i don't think so no i think you should have had to say Iggya. Iggya. Do you know what Shannon? I-G-Y-E-I-H. Oh, sorry, my internet lagged. I'm back now. Well, honestly, I mean, good for you getting into the podcast. I was also subtly plugging Watersort,

but that also was, I think think pretty impossible to tell for the audience it's over two hours into this podcast by the way and i also wanted to talk about rome's spoiler controversy i don't think i'm not finished no at all i don't know if they speak about it or not but have you heard of this i've i've seen seen some of it like i said we moved from london so i've been focusing on other things but um i've seen it uh i've seen that somebody leaked spoilers but i don't have the uh the full one two three of a situation okay what happened was for the people who aren't chronically online again i wish i was you um even when not not the jurors of of this season who are chronically online for other people

so yeah for those people he wrote an interview his his ex-interview with gordon holmes and gordon does word association and usually it's like sierra nice you know john love it smart whatever but rome was like i've done it i've met everyone you know i was on the pre-jury trip and i was at the merge so i can do everybody and then gordon was like okay we'll just read out your list and rome's list was in an order where he kind of worked his way up from like the beginning of the jury i think it was from sierra and then went back to john love it and worked her way back and then went back to rachel and worked his way up from rachel other than mixing up just kyle and caroline and people started working out it once caroline didn't go home it actually kind of ruined the spoiler but then people started

working out that it was a spoiler and it was um I have a lot of thoughts on this but I like I because I do x interviews for the internationals and I haven't like had it on many sides of the spectrum where like in the UK they were very stringent which actually may be you know type cars they were like cut this out it's a spoiler and I was like oh that kind of spoils me like why is that a spoiler and then it wouldn't happen and i was like hey that was overly cautious but i also have had an australian survivor i've had a player just spoil so much stuff i was like what does he think is happening right now he was like yeah because they're about to win a muta i was like what do you think is happening and then i I'll just tell you what it was.

It was Andrew on Brains vs. Brawn. But anyway, he gets so many spoilers. Like if you hear the raw footage of that interview, I'm like, just for like screaming internally. And then immediately the PR called me and were like, can we cut? I'm like, yeah. Oh, we'll cut it out when he spoiled everything.

So this is a story I've never told. Basically, my point is like, I think that PR on the call should be responsible for that. I want to talk about like how much you think Roman tended to spoil the whole season. But also then I'm like, do PR even know the boot order? Like it was a very unfortunate, like comedy of errors to get this to happen. But I feel bad for the people who were spoiled

because like I went to check it out immediately after the season because I'd been avoiding it like the play. And I do feel bad for the people that were spoiled, but like went to check it out immediately after the season because i'd been avoiding it like the play and i do feel bad for the people that were spoiled but like whose fault is it because this is not good yeah um i mean i i remember when we did our exit stuff it was now the days before working from online whatever we had to drive up to joburg and meet the people on the mpn you had to go to Joburg for the exits. Yeah, I mean, they paid. I mean,

they flew us up or whatever. So, they paid the travel cost. You had to go to Joburg to do the exit stuff, yeah. And then I asked

the one lady, I said, do you know, I mean, obviously you work in PR, do you know who won? She said, no,

I don't know who won, I just know the boot order. I know who the final three is, but I don't know who won. So, I don't know exactly if it's the same with the PR, but I mean,

that's what I can say as a person who's done exit press. I asked him, and then she said she doesn't know one. She just knows the boot order. So I would expect the PR person to know the boot order at least. But in terms of spoilers, I've stopped listening to exit interviews for this reason because we all think we are good at it but it's it's an event about some point in time somebody would say like you know it's it's you can sometimes pick up subconsciously like you know they'll say oh this person is really good you will see

later and like oh okay i'll see later yeah someone says that yeah always say like oh this person is so underrated they did so many things that you're not seeing but just like i'm like are you are you serious right now so i think some of the people do cut it out but i'd be curious i mean i know rob doesn't do his live it'd be like an interesting conversation to have with him ask him like the off season how many times has he been spoiled on upcoming stuff and how many stuff has he had because i think it happens more than we think it does like i mean if you say you have to cut stuff well yeah i mean i don't cut that much i think it very rarely happens yeah i mean i i don't i don't think it does happen and i don't think a lot of the times it's malicious. I think it's just, you think you said something

which is cryptic enough, but there's people who listen to every podcast, to every word, to every Reddit post, and then they kind of piece together. And then they'll say, oh, it was so clear that X, Y, and Z wasn't going to win because of how this played out. Well, I mean, as someone who does exits for and i have done exits

on now three different franchises like i don't think people spoil that much i don't i don't i think it's okay i i feel like i can be overly cautious on like you'll see kind of and i'll usually cut that um but yeah i mean i think it i think it usually is okay the andrew thing was crazy wasn't there something on Australian Survivor where I can't remember which season it was but somebody went out and it was kind of like when it was leaked okay these are people are going out and then within the time they were still filming they were back in like making Twitter comments or something oh no that happens all the time yeah yeah well no no I mean they'll post things like abby came back from all stars and was like

commentating the grand final i did my ex interview with daisy even though she'd just gone out to play all stars but she was out in the first week that was the big one for me um that big so that just doing that ex interview was an all-star spoiler but on this on rome um i think you know everyone you know people have feel that certain type of way about rome so everyone assumes he did it on purpose I don't know if I am naive and I give people the benefit of the doubt I didn't feel like Rome was doing that because it's a word association like he didn't come in intending to read his list start to finish and from my perception I don't think he offered to I think that he's like I have a whole list of people we can do all the people and Gordon was like read the list and I think he'd written out the list and if I were to write out a season full of people while trying to remember everyone I would also

be working up in a boot order or maybe go by tribe but I would you know otherwise you feel like who was who was in it like 18 people is one thing but like a list of people ordered in your mind is a way to remember everyone for me um I don't blame him I don't think it was malicious but maybe I'm naive um I don't blame Gordon because Gordon could never, I think we've learned a valuable lesson about not letting people read lists out. And I think I put it most on CBS if they knew the boot order. And if not, then it's just very unfortunate.

You would think at least even after the interview, you'd be like, oh my God, cut that out or edit that because that is the boot order that I like had in front of me, had written that way. And then was like, oh no, that, you know know I just said it in the moment because I was like you know on the spot in this interview and now I'm thinking wait don't put that into the universe you would think that would happen but it didn't so I think this might have been a special situation I don't know that I don't

think that people should be off exit interviews forever but i do think this was a very unfortunate thing i agree with you the pr person should be able to catch it i mean that's her job right um but like i said when we did exit press i don't know if it's still there but they're on the call with the person who's doing the interview whatever so at any point in time they could interject let's say stop the call or like drop the line or whatever um so yeah stop right there like oh my god he's reading stop right there yeah literally like at the point when andrew was like this happens like genuinely they didn't stop it but i was like what would we do if we were live on radio like what would happen i didn't need to be live on radio that was quite stressful because they told me like this and you can be clear about this because uh we're going to be live so please stay away from spoilers i did one with uh nine nine well

they're 94.7 now nine four seven um that's a different story because when you're on air you can't um yeah you have to like think on your feet yeah well i think most people do okay at that i think i think in this case what's interesting to me is people are like well won't you get in big trouble i'm like well how can you get in big trouble? It was a CBS media appointment. You're all there. That feels unfair because you're responsible for it. And ironically, they're so stringent about the US

postseason, which is strange. So I was not stringent about. But then this exit interview was the issue and it was like literally they were on the call. I assume. So crazy, crazy thing that happened yeah season 48 coming up anything exciting um we saw anybody we know playing no not this time not this time no draft is this time unfortunately which is i've become accustomed to it who's gonna

what's gonna happen now is rob gonna be is Asia gonna drop again Rob's gonna be um yeah facilitating yeah unfortunately because I wanted to pay him back for putting me last I mean he won the one he drafted didn't he he won one of the two and then this season he drafted and he was out very quickly and he jumped on the grenade which was great because actually TK was second boot and I had TK so I count my lucky stars Jacques you know it's not been such a bad year if you think about the fact that I got Werdl in one I won the draft this one time I guess that's basically it well I mean this is this is yeah 2024 what a year for you yeah those two things yeah what about you Jacques what's happening with you you're not on social media you can't plug anything I mean I am I'm just not very active um no like I said we moved back to we moved back from London um it was quite quite wild now back to Africa so a lot of things sort out um

I need I have one week left to finish my master's dissertation for my uh engineering master's degree so I have a very not fun week left yeah i can imagine that i have to submit the third that's like i want to get it done before new year so that's not a nice kind of um but with moving and whatever it's been busy so um yeah but i will uh yeah good no i mean you should go back you should be doing that why are you? Why are you here putting Linkin Park songs into a Survivor podcast? You should be doing that. I can't tell you I don't want to come because I'm busy. And you would say, well, we've done every single podcast since Dawn of Time.

Well, since we've united, I can't now break the streak. Unless you say you don't want to ask me again, which is also fine. It's still provocative. But yeah, I can't break the streak. We've been doing this now for like years. So, you know. Well, I don't want to be blamed if the annual yeah by annual conversations and i mean i did wash my hands in innocence if the crowd can't um you know ask for my head to be put on a spike because uh i'll just do what happened on the jazzy so uh

hopefully um i don't there's no, mutiny and I get kicked out because I pleaded my case. I think people will love that I did that with the Chizzy. If anything, I think that you've now absolved yourself of credit, not culpability. Like, I think that this is going to be a very popular decision that I've made. I will go.

I don't know how much traction the post-season episode gets compared to the other ones, but I'll get YouTube comments and send you a screenshot. No. You can see the blowout. Anyway, it's my own insecurities, but people will tell me. It's fine. People will message me and tell me what they think about reading the chibi

and whether they're enjoying Water Sword and maybe even some strategic stuff. You know, strategic stuff you know you know strategic stuff is so broken i'm just gonna get all these uh what do you call it not waterboard water sword waterboard yeah something else you don't want to experience i'm getting all these water sorting um ads now on my phone um yes the first one i got on the screen shot i'm like thank you shannon for uh breaking my feed um well how how weak will am i like i saw one semi-similar challenge on survivor weeks ago and i'm playing it ever since but anyway that's this podcast let us know what you think about reina chizzy about rachel and her legacy and all the things the jurors were asking about rankings there's a lot there's a lot of

interesting stuff and um you know this is my last survival podcast of the year. I've got some stuff coming up. Traders talking about Tony's game with Robin Pouya. The Wicked podcast I've done is coming out. That was a really fun time. So this is all my social media feed at Shannon Gates. Follow me everywhere. Then you will see also my little dance video about winning the draft

and all the content that I'm going to do. And then Australian Survival will start. So this is the time to follow. But Jacques, thank you so much. I hope the dissertation goes okay. I hope that this wasn't like the thing that wrecked it. If you see me without a tiara walking to the ocean, then you'll know. Blame Shannon.

Yeah. Well, if it goes well, you should get a tiara because they're actually really fun to wear but this is it for survivor in 2024 thank you so much for being my guest thank you to our team behind the scenes for the whole year of this and thank you to everyone listening we're listening really appreciate it and i will see you next year bye bye Bye Thank you.