RHAP: We Know Survivor - Survivor Global: End Game Analysis and Finale Predictions | Season 48 Episode 12 with Dino Paulo

Episode Date: May 18, 2025

Survivor Global: End Game Analysis and Finale Predictions | Season 48 Episode 12 with Dino Paulo We Know Global Survivor Host Shannon Guss speaks to Survivor South Africa winner Dino Paulo about the last four weeks of Survivor 48. They run through the central power struggles of this late game, give out four weeks of […]

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Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer, so download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. Hello everyone and welcome to RHAP coverage of Survivor 48 for Survivor Global. I'm your host Shannon Guss. Here back after a hiatus, I told the players don't do anything interesting while I'm gone

and they kind of listened and I do appreciate that, although some people are blaming me, which is fair because I brought that on by openly asking for it. And to talk about those few weeks of the show that I've missed from weeks 9, 10, 11, 12, getting into the finale. It's not going to be like a full rundown of the last four weeks, but we will be giving out four weeks of jizzy points. We will be looking at kind of the macro storyline and how that played out over the last month in I think a pretty interesting, well, maybe that's too harsh.

I think in a cohesive way that has played out over the last four weeks and to do that, I have such a great guest. My wonderful friend who also just happens to be a winner of Survivor South Africa, huge super fan of the game, very good friend of Rachel who won the last season. So winning is all over the sky. It is the great Dino Palodino. Thank you for being here. Shannon, that's quite an introduction again.

It always kind of takes me by surprise. It's always awesome sitting across from you and chatting with you and actually being on Survivor Global. And I just had a moment now thinking back to pre-playing days, we used to listen to Survivor Global and you and Mark. And yeah, it's still pretty unreal sitting across from you. And like I said to you during the week, the pressure is on for me today because one, still imposter syndrome, sitting across from you, challenge survivor is a stressful task to try and keep up. And two, four weeks of cheesy points. That's a lot of responsibility.

And like I said, as a cheesy winner, I take it very, seriously. And I just want to make sure I make the right calls. I get it. Look, firstly, I one thing, one of the many things I love about you, Dino, is that every time I introduce you as a survivor winner, you're like, oh yeah. And it like, it seems to hit you again, which I love. The second thing, yes, this is not like last year I had Eden on for the weeks that I missed. Here I brought you on. It is not an enviable task of having to come on and be like, what happened this month? And especially because this will be the first time. I want to say in global survivor history that we've been giving out four weeks of chibi points. That is true because last year when I went away, we gave points during the time. Now it's like what

I know we both did is we both gave points. We watched episode, we gave points. So So for me, like some of the stuff I watched, like on the plane right there, the David as an example, and I wrote down my cheesy points. And I know that we've had a lot of integrity of not deviating from those TV points, even if things change. And integrity is a very important part of the season specifically. However, it does mean that I look back at old episodes and think. Really? All pass Shannon like, OK, I get, and then like, I see how my mind changes.

And maybe that's good. That's interesting. All the point of the podcast of how we went through the journey. I wanted to say as well, I said it's the first time in Global's Vibes history, we're gonna get four weeks of cheesy points at the same time. That is true.

However, for your season of Return of the Outcast, there is Zeno's Cat Bella making her cameo appearance being so cute. But for your season, we were doing four episodes a week. And Mike and I were doing four hour podcasts. How many they let us do that for our podcast every week, talking about your season. And it was four episodes that were way more intricate than these four. We weren't giving four weeks of chippy points, but we were doing as much content

and it was highly strategic. So I know it can be done because you especially made me do this. And I did it for you for the six weeks of that season so we can do for you. Absolutely in the favour. Yeah exactly and it's hard right that's why it was not a good viewing schedule okay it's not the way that the show should be consumed but oh my god Bella's the main character if you guys are missing the video you're missing a very very cute cat right now who's like ready for her close-up which I really love. ready for her close up, which I really love. There we go. If she gets too distracted, we can ask her to move her cute self somewhere else. But for now, she's quite happy. She's distracting me in the best way possible. But Dino, how are you going?

Thank you for being here for this difficult task of this podcast. Oh, I know things are great. Business has been good. I just got back from I know things are great. Business has been good. I just got back from while you were gallivanting, traveling the world, I went to a tiny little spot called Bloemfontein for skydiving nationals. That was an absolute gem. So yeah, things are good. There's lots of survivors. I've been catching up on Australian survive at the same time because I got to hang out with Paulie the other day and we're hanging out with him and some of the alumni on Tuesday night. So yeah, all in all, yeah, things are going well. So survivors come at a good time, Kirsten and I have been enjoying both seasons and it's been cool to see the contrast between Australian

survivor and US survivor in real time, in our real time. So yeah, overall I would say things are going well. Eliza is now ready for her close-up, wanting to be in on the... And I've got this, I bought this in the image. Karma is a cat with all of the era cats as well. So there are so many cats, if you look hard enough in this podcast, and that is a great way to start the podcast. But okay, you know, macro thoughts on this season, the last few weeks, which I think do embody

what the season is, it's the Joe show, but it's also how everyone's handling Joe. How do you see are in the season right now? How do I see? Just the whole, like where we are in the season, like who is actually looking at towards the finale next week, like with Joe at the center. But like, I kind of feel like these last few weeks for me, like the Joe,

Kyle slash Camilla power struggle. Who's winning that power struggle for you? Like, how do you see how these last few weeks went and who's best positioned where we currently are before the finale? Overall, I mean, I think the Joe show is is pretty accurate both in it and in the way things are going. Excuse me, Kyle and Kamala as a duo, they've gotten a couple of wins, but overall Joe seems to be best positioned because he's not really taking any actual shots.

There's a strong reminder or likeness for me for season seven for Island of Secrets with Rob, Nicole, the Amigos. They also had this like moral high ground, this integrity, this loyalty game, and people were waiting to take a shot at Rob and then Rob goes on this immunity run and makes it incredibly difficult. And so for me, there's this like similarity, although I think, you know, Joe is this far more likable character and whatnot, but yeah, overall, I think this, the Joe show is winning out at this stage. Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I think that from what I've seen, even putting out some question threads for this podcast, I think that it's really clear that people see it very differently. Even listening to Robin Stephen on this week's Know It Alls, they see this as such a big

win for Kyle in the last week to get one over on Joe where he voted out Shaheen. And I think we're going to talk about that through this last month because I think, yeah, that's what the win has to be for Carl and Camilla, which is to undermine Joe to the point where they're looking probably to sit next to him and they can't really do a lot about it if they don't want to sit next to him, other than like making a shot at the final five

where he and Eva have a really great shot of winning Unity, B definitely an idol. So it becomes about undermining him. And I will say to the show's extreme credit, one of the things I'll say is I think the edits been very good and Kyle, Camilla and Joe all have a strong shot in game and in edit and maybe even more in edit of winning the show. And I think that points us for a very interesting finale and we'll talk that through. However, for me, I'm a lot lower than like Robin Stephen were and then some of the listeners

seem to be on the undermining of Joe. And to start kind of in this last week, and we'll talk about it throughout, you know, the biggest hits against Joe through this last month have been hit on David that at the time I thought was a hit on Joe, thought was really bad for Joe and Eva, but it just helped them maintain the power structure. It wasn't even done without them. And then that kind of like is bookended here by the Shaheen boot, where it's like, oh, my God, they made Joe vote out Shaheen.

Like, OK. And if that's what it's going to be to a jury, if I were Joe, what I would be saying is like, and for what? Like you made me vote out Shaheen so that you could take me to the end because everyone wants to take me to the end because everyone's crying about voting me out because I have so much power. Like all of the little wins against Joe that even like Shaheen talks about in the ex interviews, like Shaheen was the one choosing between Mary and style. All these little details don't matter so much to me. And I see, we'll talk about Kyle's decisions and like not turning on Joe through the last

few weeks. I see what he's trying to do. And I also see the barriers and like maybe the jury won't like that he turned on Joe in this like loyalty culture. However, I do think that for me, these little things don't matter as much to Joe has been at the top of a hierarchy. He has maintained that hierarchy and he hasn't been got and yet they've taken side swipes, but he's still maintained the power for me. He's winning on that. I think for me, that's a winning game. I think that's the best game of the season.

Can Joe speak to that at final tribal council without tying himself up in self-imposed moral knots? That, I think, is the question going through. I think it's Joe's game to lose and he may lose it. However, I do still think it's his game to lose. So I'm not as low on him having these minor losses when for me, the fact that he's sitting here, final five with even an idol is already to me the win for Joe to this point. So I think episodically, So I think episodically, I was a lot higher on Carl, right? And I think Carl and Camilla have gotten more wins episodically over Joe. So I was quite similar in thought to what maybe

the listeners are thinking as well. However, I think going into finale Joe is still in the driver's seat and like you say, I agree 100% it's his game to lose because he set the tone and he set the culture for the season he really did. The big question that I have is the jury. We see a lot of stern faces on the jury. We can obviously see David even posturing from the jury. We see a lot of stern faces on the jury. We can obviously see David even posturing

from the jury. So it's going to be quite an interesting one. And I think there's a case for each of these games, like you say, you know, the major four and even even Mitch within outside charts. Going into finale, I think I think each person has a case to be made and it's just about how well they make their case or how poorly the opposition makes their case. Also in combinations, right? I think we'll get into this about the combinations of the final three and what are the best combinations for each person to stand a good chance? Because we see in a preview, Kamila saying that her best chance of winning is to, or either her or

Kyle having the best chance of winning is for them to not sit next to each other at the end, is for only one of them to sit at the end, you know, which I think is, I agree 100% because you don't want to split those votes, you know. So yeah, that will be interesting to talk about the combinations that give each person the best chance of other one. Yeah. Well, let's take it back a month. Well, I did watch David on the plane over, but you, I think, have been more recently, but we're not going to go through it in too much detail. But I do think it is interesting to go through this last few weeks and how it's led to this point of where Joe sits and where Kyle and Camilla sit, especially because I think, you

know, in the four weeks I was gone, I did this math. There were 30 votes at a final nine, eight, seven, six, four people go home. So 26 people remain in the game. How many of those people voted, were blindsided by the vote and voted like wrong as an example, to the entire time of the 26th? And that was Mary and Star here when David went, every other vote is a split or unanimous. Even people were asking about Camilla voting for Mitch in this last vote for me. That's a very clear like one vote split. It's all been very, very unified. So it's actually two people got left out of a vote here.

That's some intrigue that we had. And I definitely did see this at the time as a shot against Eva and Joe. Now we know that they retain the power structure. Now we know that this wasn't an opportunity to weaken Joe and Eva from like a Karl and Shaheen in order to get them. It was again kind of this half measure like the Shaheen boot, I think, where it was, it did help them in ways, but it helped them in smaller ways. It was about winning a battle against David, who was kind of coming for them and like onto them, but it was never about winning the ultimate war,

I felt against Joe, even though that's what I thought it could have been at the time. So yeah, I mean, I still, yeah. What's quite interesting about this episode and now looking retrospectively as well is, is David and Mary are on the money, credit to David. Obviously, he's been cast as stuntman, Mr. Muscle, and he's fought the Slug Brawl thing. So maybe his tact and his approach and Mary as well hasn't always been

on point. But in terms of how he's perceived the game, and Mary as well, they've often perceived it very, very accurately. And David seems to be the only one that really comes on to the fact that Kyle is really close with Camilla. And there were some signs, there were just a few signs, you know, that we already know is in the audience, but players in game are obviously not picking it up for a very good reason, because Kyle and Camilla are doing an incredible job of playing that down. But David and Mary, they picked that up. So credit to them. And it's just their approach that gets them got, I guess. So they try and sell this to Joe. They try and alert Joe to it. And they get incredibly frustrated. So two points here. One, you know, I don't see, like you say, Kyle and Camilla's move against David and Mary

isn't necessarily a shot at Joe and Eva to weaken Joe and Eva, but it's more about removing a problem for them in the game because they're going after Camilla hard, right? But again, does this then bode poorly for Joe's game at the end of the game because, you know, somebody like, let's say sits against the Kyle or a Camilla and go like,

oh yeah, well, there's my number one on the other side and there's David now validated going, I knew that and you didn't listen to me, you're an idiot. I obviously knew more than you in the game and you voted me out instead of them when I was telling you this and all of a sudden that appeals to his ego because now he's right and validated. Does Kyle and Camila now all of a sudden pick up a vote over Joe? So yeah, I think it's quite an interesting one. And even though it's a David Buday episode, I want to give him credit for reading the game well and just say, maybe poorly executed on the delivery on how to get things out of the line. And Kyle's a sterling example of how to keep your allies

on side and trusting you. Man, that boy's good. Holy shit. Well, I do think that like David's not voting for Joe. Like if anyone hates Joe, definitely it's David. The thing about David being right is that David was right about them coming for him. And then they are doing that.

David wasn't right or wasn't even saying that they were ever coming for Eva and Joe. So for Eva and Joe, they kind of actually were just between these two sides of their alliance who were at war with each other and like Karl and Shaheen and Mary and Mary to an extent as an ally and David and they were in the middle but no one was coming for them. So David was not like a risk to them ever. And David wasn't even saying that Joe and Shaheen were working with Carl, with that, sorry. David wasn't even saying that Carl and Shaheen were working with Camilla to get out Joe and Eva

and they weren't. Like the interesting thing about this, I think in all the decisions, the stakes for like a Joe and an Eva are very, very low. We see this on the journey, right? Like Eva's first journey that we see in these four weeks is that she's already like, she won it from the reward. So we see it here. Like the reward is, like, I think she should have just gone for the idol and only then now it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. That's the point. But I think she should have gone for the idol

because safety without power expired at seven and the idol went to five. Like that's, you know, it was like double the length from that alone, but it was like risk and extra vote we're giving you and then risk safety without power. It's like you didn't have any of this five minutes ago. Sure, go for broke. And then later on, it's about risking a vote, which kind of mattered a little bit to acknowledge the power that didn't matter to her at all. The stakes were so low. And I've seen that on reward. The reward choices, other than taking Joe to fuel him, every reward choice is like everyone knows what they're meant to be doing. The reward doesn't matter to Joe to fuel him, every reward choices like everyone knows what they're meant to be doing. The reward doesn't matter to it. Like the stakes I think are so binary that like none of these little details matter. And I think as well for something

like in the votes with a with a Joe and an Eva that like getting rid of Shaheen. Okay. But they're still here with a lot of power with Colin Camilla, who are still saying they're going to go to the end with Joe and Eva. They're still getting to the end with a really great argument in a game. Well, I'm saying Eva, but like for Joe in a way that the game is there for him to lose. And I think it was the same thing here with David. Like, did he get got? No, because if he was going to get got, it would be on a group of people who were taking out David to eventually come for him. And David was right that they were up to something, but they weren't up to something with Joe. So is it such a loss for Joe that he ended up taking out David to just continue his relationships with Kyle and Shaheen through to the end? Like is that not

just having the power and having to choose a side in alliances that aren't getting along with each other? You can go with either side and they're all going to protect you to the end and the side he chooses has done that. He is in the final five now with Carl who does that and with Shaheen who had wanted to do that. I'm going to do something that I don't think I've ever done and disagree with me, disagree to a point, to a point, and we're going to use a little bit of you know the advanced Japao Satya right. So I made my notes, I was like, she's Joe, at the beginning of this episode, Joe is so the center of the game, you've got everybody coming at him from the different sides, coming to, you know, Lord Joe, Joe, Joe, this is the story,

Joe, Joe, Joe, this is the story. So Joe is firmly in the middle and everybody trusts Joe, right? Joe, right? And you're talking about, is there such a dent in by choosing one side of the other? I do think so, because he's taken two people out of the game who trust him implicitly and are trying to actively work with him. And if he keeps both factions in the game, that's he's going to maintain his like center point position. It's only through Joe winning immunities that his name gets taken off the table. We do see that there's enough people in the game to potentially take a shot at him. Yes, there are long shots,

but in the subsequent episodes, we see people are winding up where Mary and David might not have done that and Joe might not have been in that firing line, you know, had that not been the case. So that's what this would be slightly is that he does actually expose himself through getting rid of Mary and David because they were absolutely all in on Joe. So yeah, I think he does lose out on that. I love the disagreement. Please don't be afraid to disagree with me. I think that my where I was terrifying by the way, that was terrifying. This is like a wrong dinner. No, it's like, I think that the thing is maybe Joe's at like a hundred and then this takes them down to like a 95, but he's still at a 95 and you'll see in the

chippy points, obviously I didn't know the way it was going to go. So we'll see how it goes. Joe's not going to get chippy points from me in this episode. 100% alone, alone. However, I the move wasn't there to be made for him. And the storyline that I saw through the last month wasn't Joe will want immunity. Damn it. We were really going to get him.

I mean, even before he wins his last immunity, the Shaheen vote, he's not the target. And at the point where it's the 4-4, even then, you're relying on like Mitch doesn't want to work with Star. Like that was when it was at the Dicey's and even then Kyle is never really wanting to turn on him. Like the votes for him, a majority of votes for him are never there, regardless of immunity. And even that plurality is really, really hard to back. It never happens. It's these unanimous votes to his credit every time with him. So I can't fault it too much.

Like if this was worst case scenario, that actually is a compliment. Like if this was him falling to a plan B that's worse, still went pretty damn well. And that's how I feel. And that's why that's a very cohesive way to talk about the show, because that's how I feel with Shaheen as well. Like, wow, they really got Joe by bringing him to the final five and wanting to bring him to

the final four and he still has his idol. Like that's you getting Joe. That doesn't sound like getting Joe. Like Joe's doing so well, you know. But Joe's commanding relationship getting there by one of the 62 paths that he'd forged for himself. Like wow, look at his optimal path. Like yeah, so that's how I think that's, I'm not gonna even cheat the points for this, because I definitely, at the time, I actually thought it might've been an inroad to actually take a shot at him. And at the time, that's how people seem to think about it.

I listened to the Snow It Alls on the boat from Athens to Mykonos on three of the most uncomfortable hours of my life. We went in like a huge storm to Mykonos and the boat was rocking and everyone was throwing up. And all like, actually, when I talk about this episode, I still feel a little bit nauseous, um, just thinking about, so like, even now we might just need to get past it because that's how it was.

But at the time, Robin, Steven, I think in my mind, we're like, okay, now we're going to open it up and it didn't open it up. So it's like, if that's Joe's path to, and it's worse, I agree. It probably is worse. Like best case scenario, you can keep everyone on lock and like vote out a Mitch and at least like save some time to break up a part of your alliance for sure. But like in the way that they couldn't do that and they take a shot at David, like it could have gone a lot worse.

So I'm not harsh, that harsh on it. He's still at a final five with people who again aren't even taking out your heen so that they can take him out at five. They're taking out your heen so that it's a better argument for when they inevitably sit next to him and it's just not that bad. Yeah. Okay. Chizy? I hear you. So, so just, just before we get into Chizy, I want to just, from a play perspective, I think I love the way Kyle has handled it versus David. And I think it's worth mentioning.

It's like Kyle hears Camilla's name floated, and he's agreeable. And he's like, yeah, sure. He's probably learned from the previous one. He's like, yeah, sure. He's kind of probably learned from the previous one. He's like, yeah, cool, no problem, sure. And then he sets a plan in motion to rectify that, right? So he's being agreeable with his alliance, even if it's just initially, which bodes well for him.

Continues that level of trust, right? David is like stuck in a Chinese finger trap of like, you're not listening to me. These two are close. They are close. There's something trap of, you're not listening to me. These two are close. They are close. There's something happening here that you're not seeing. And the more he pushes the agenda, the more stuck he gets in this, where he actually

needs to ease up. And it feels counterintuitive at the time, because you just want to ring the person's neck, because you don't have time. You've got very limited opportunity to get people to come around to your ideas. So it feels counterintuitive to ease up. But like I say, Chinese finger trap, if had like eased up quite a bit and goes like, here's the seed,

we've planted the seed, just be aware of this, Magar. Cool, you want to go this direction? Happy to go this direction, but let's just keep our eyes peeled. He probably does a little bit better here to retain the trust and perhaps stay in the game. So I think I just wanted to compare how Kyle handled it versus how David handled it and to say like, if you're going to play this game one day, take lessons and take notes from Kyle. The agreeability is a big one. And it comes up a little bit later again in building trust in key moments. So yeah, I just want to make that point. Yeah. I mean, I think Kyle's social game here is important because I think that the Alliance

is basically choosing a Kyle and Shaheen, to be honest, over David, like from a social perspective, they're like, our allies are like no longer getting along and they're having to choose and they don't, they don't choose David and that might be to the way he's acted. And I did actually think that that conversation they had, which was about like, you broke your word. It was like, I'm incapable of breaking my word was such an interesting conversation. We don't get that a lot in the new era. And that's actually something that I want to talk about about what people like this kind of debate I've seen online about how this is more of an old school season. But that was really compelling in the way like, again, this like

self-imposed moral structure that David and Joe have, and the way they're operating in that structure. And it's like, you both, you, you can actually break out of this at any time that you want. Like you're doing this to yourself, but it's so real and like oppressive to them. And I thought that was really interesting. So for sure, they're going to win the social war here, I think for Kyle and Shaheen. And I also think for Kyle, again, Joe's not getting David's vote,

but it is this type of thing that might have the bigger win. Like this might win the battle, not, not in terms of like, I won. Well, this might win the war, not in terms of like, I won the battle. And then I got to take the shot at Joe, but to win the war of Joe is the kind of person who can take out a David, like Joe is a hypocrite. Like if they can start tripping Joe up at a final tribal council, if he can't speak to, we get his own moral code that he's creating for himself. A vote like this will speak to that and will help to trip him up where he might not be able to speak to it as well

as like someone like Kyle, the lawyer can speak to that a little bit better and where Joe, we've seen many times that we've seen like a Mike Turner, you know, have these moral codes that become hypocritical that juries won't speak to. And I do think that that's the biggest damning thing for Joe. So any part that they're contributing to that for Joe to lose his own game is the look at the win for me for someone like Kyle. And I think that stuff is in the edit. We can see later on when Joe is going to have the vote thrown on him from Mary and he's like, why can't I just throw a vote on someone else? Why doesn't it matter? It's like, well, it matters to you that she's throwing a vote on you. you know,

like that kind of like main character entitlement energy, I do think is there a bit for Joe. We also see that he says to the camera, like in confessional, how he, you know, like he needs good jurors on site and then immediately goes to Mary to say that she was the issue with David and she manipulated him and like she, but he's going to maybe need her jury vote. We see some negative jury content there. And that's why it's to the credit of the editors

that the Joe losing storyline is there for me, but so is the Joe winning storyline. I think all of these things are just, and again, coming from Australian Survivor where I feel like the edit was not as nuanced and not as kind of versatile about like, the different pathways this can go. I really do think we are set up for an interesting finale

because I could see it going either way. I'm more the joker win, but I think that the edit of him losing is there. You'll have to trip himself up and have Carl and Camilla been throwing heat on that where it's difficult for him to speak to why David went, why Shaheen went. Yes, and that's the win here for them in terms of that.

So should we do the chisely The first Chizzy of the week? All right, take a wide scene and MC color. One, two, three. Four Chizzy rounds in one episode that I'm going to be manually calculating. I'm sure this is something that will go incredibly well. Yes, for episode nine at the time, I give three points to Carl, two points to Camilla, one point to Shaheen. I wasn't sure of what Shaheen's path was. Now we know that he just wanted to sit at the end with Joe and Eva, which we can talk

about and thought that he would win. I don't really love that as we'll talk about for Carl in a similar spot, but I thought the three of them kind of won the day there. I think it speaks for itself. Dino, who did you give points to a month ago in the David boot? Well, now I'm doubting my notes here. So three points to Kyle, easy one. And then I think because we have that snippet of Shaheen talking about how he's been planting seeds of doubt about David over a period of time. And then the, you know, the editors show each,

you know, seed of doubt. I figured that Shaheen was quite instrumental in that. So I've given Shaheen the two points. I didn't award Camilla points. I gave her an honorable mention just because of her phenomenal playing style and the fact that like as an ally to have your number one out there doing all the work

and you trusting that and not blowing up his spot, not blowing up your spot. It is, it's maybe not the flashiest game in the world, but my God, is she brilliant? Like I think she's phenomenal. And if you ever play survivor, you want somebody like her or you want somebody like Carl on your side, I can do that.

That's like Dream Alliance member. I actually gave the one point to Mitch because his name was there on the block, but he's kind of, I don't want to say gotten himself into a position, but he's now in a position where he's getting a little closer to the core Alliance. He's getting himself out of the firing line. Instead of being on the chopping block, he now becomes, out of the firing line. And instead of being on the chopping block, he now becomes, and I think maybe we actually see it later, a potential vote that could disrupt things. A potential vote. Does it? No, we know it doesn't, but the potential is there. Spring is here and you can now get almost anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

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Wonderful segue into the next episode. Mitch is the one who did throw out the David name, but I just felt like Camilla was actually working more with Carl and was actually more the catalyst to that, because that relationship was what actually started tripping David up to even get to the point where there was so much division. So I gave it to Camilla there. And I thought it was good for that duo to really open things up with Kyle and Camilla, which they do in a different way than what we thought as discussed.

That gets us to the star boot. A lot of anger at Mitch through this episode in not going to the four-four, which is kind of the easiest part of this episode because I feel, I don't know that there'll be any debate around like, obviously Mitch should have turned. I think that again, like, and we, I've spoken about this in Australian Survivor recently,

Mitch also, Mitch is a fear based player. And we see this was a lot in Australian survive in the end game of like, I can't do that because then they're going to come for me. And for someone like Mitch, they, some of the threat level there, we hear that he might be like a more of a threat than we think at a final tribal council. We see that he's funny. We see that he has a story. However, not more than like

the Joes of the world. Like in this situation, Joe was immune. They were looking to vote out like a Shaheen. We can talk about who the target should have been. You will still have shields like a Kyle, like a Joe. And why would people you quote unquote don't trust her or you because you have mutual incentive. I feel like I'm constantly screaming about mutual incentive at a point. We have to be all be working on mutual incentive. But yeah, I mean, Mitch was not playing to win and not even that was playing for safety, where even in his current path, he didn't have safety. Like I don't even see why the other path is unsafe. And I also don't see how his current path was safe.

Like he wasn't in the core group and seemingly has gotten to this point by just like other targets being chosen, which was certainly not a sure thing. So I definitely think like if we're looking at Mitch's like a chisely point getter in the past episode, it doesn't really get to the point here where like what was happening, Mitch. I think that that's probably a couple of weeks late, but like take the shot, obviously. Yes. Take the shot, dude.

Yeah. And I think, you know, getting into this episode here, a couple of the notes I think, you know, getting into this episode here, a couple of the notes I made, you know, Camilla pretending to be at the bottom. She's played that incredibly, incredibly well. We know she's not as far at the bottom as Joe and then my think. The big takeaway for me was the fact that there was a A shot and it was a long shot,

but the players that were almost there to be picked off with somewhat less to lose coming to a plan that sadly doesn't come to fruition to go to a 4-4 split against an impenetrable, what is a seemingly impenetrable alliance, I think is ballsy and I like the gameplay. You saw from here, there's a difference between, it's the same in poker, there's a difference between playing to not lose and playing to win, right?

And Mary and Camilla are great examples of playing to win. Where they're willing to take these shots and go like, you know what, I'll go to fucking rocks because if I don't, I'm not winning this game any other way. So with our last next day or two days, it's inconsequential. So many people have this like FOMO, this fear,

and like you say, Mitch is this fear based player. Fear of going home and they're like, okay, cool. Tomorrow's another day. And it's like, okay, cool, tomorrow's another day. And it's like, well, things aren't really changing for you and your opportunities aren't going to get more, they're actually only going to diminish. Particularly when everybody knows there's advantages in the game that don't sit with you.

So how are you gonna make moves? So yeah, sorry, that's a lot. That's kind of wrapping up my thoughts of the episode, but I have a huge appreciation for these players on the outside going like, I will go to rocks because as a player who has been in the game, that fear of, sorry, hello Bella, you agree, that fear of leaving that game and the fear of leaving the game on chance and any chance you put yourself or any opportunity or moment you put yourself at risk is huge. Like, do never, never, ever, ever underestimate how difficult that is psychologically now, burning on absolutely fumes. You've got no sleep, no food, and you've got to make these

life-changing decisions, game-changing decisions, which become life-changing decisions, and you've got to make the choice to put yourself at risk and to a game of chance, you know? So I have huge admiration for like Miriam and Kamila in particular for going like, hell yeah, let's do this thing. Let's go to rocks and yeah, so be it. Let's put them in a position because they're the ones with something to lose, not us. And you're smiling hugely there something to lose, not us. And you're smiling hugely there for the purring, I take it.

Yeah, Bella loves this point. She's purring literally like into the mic. I'm obsessed with it. This is a very relaxing podcast. You can hear the purring in the background. But yeah, I do think, well, I think that the central premise of like, do you risk your spot to take the shot is of course, like the theme of Hamilton.

Um, as I've discussed on a podcast already this week, it's not though, even it's not even the dichotomy that Mitch faces. Like this is actually the decision that Kyle faces and will face as we will talk about through the next two weeks, maybe three weeks, he's kind of lost the numbers by six, but that's Kyle's actual choice. Like Kyle risking his spot as another threat to take out like a possible Shaheen or a Joe and then exposing himself

and then also pissing off a jury possibly versus like just sitting and waiting and then maybe just losing to Joe and having his whole game suppressed. That's actually Kyle's decision. Mitch's decision is like, he's in a very bad spot now. It's not even blowing up like a fairly good spot and like wanting the safety of his spot

to take a bigger shot. Like his spot is possibly like less safe, you know? Like he's on the bottom of a group that could at any point pick him up. They could have done it, you know, at any time. So I actually don't see that as much for Mitch. Like Mitch has to make the decision now at the 4-4 because he can't rely clearly on Kyle

who will not be turning in the next vote. If it was like, okay, let's take out Star because Kyle's coming over at seven, he doesn't even know that Kyle's as much of a chance as he was. He doesn't even know that, you know, Kyle-Camilla relationship that could pull Kyle across. And even the one we know about doesn't play out.

So this was the shot. And I think that it should have been taken. Now, interestingly, I also want to talk about what happens if they go to rocks and win, and they take out Shaheen, which is their choice, right? So they take out Shaheen, and it works, right? Say they go to rocks and like people turn on Shaheen and Shaheen goes, or say they go to rocks and like Kyle pull the rock and goes because Joe's immune, but Eva stays. Actually, still a terrible, terrible space for this minority for who have flipped, just to talk it through, because I didn't really hear this spoken about at the time. It would have been their four, and they'd

had to already win rocks or pull someone over. So that's already not a guarantee. So they have maintained their four through a big win here. And they've gone into a final seven where Joe, let's say Kyle still wants to be with them and hasn't flipped, let's say, so Kyle or Shaheen or whatever, but he, the person who's with them and Eva have an idol and a safety without power. And again, if you are a Mary, a star and a Mitch, you think that Kyle is fully with those three, you wouldn't think that Kyle would flip. So it's your four versus their three, but with the idle and safety without power. Now, if one of Joe Eva or Kyle Shaheen wins immunity, which is again, highly

likely, it's actually not what happens. Camilla wins, but if Joe wins highly likely, they just win the day because their three is protected by immunity and idle and either safety without power that just fully protects them or either can send out one of your four and safety without power and at three, three, or three of your side can be immune at rocks because one's the target, one has an idol and one has one immunity. So that actually was a terrible position anyway. That's how much the show is going to be. You're saying at rocks, not for this episode, you're saying later on. Yeah, at the final seven, if you leave Eva in and she still has the might and safety of that power, which is actually expiring at seven, then that three, whoever Eva's left

with Joe and one of Carl, Assume Carl's always with them, are in a very, very good spot. Like worst case scenario, someone on the other side wins, which Camilla does, and it's like a one-one rock-ball. Like it's actually not a great situation because Eva has so much firepower. For that reason, actually, they really should have been targeting Eva here. I'm with you, Jay.

Yeah, like maybe she plays an idol, but even then, like, Star is fodder, and also, take the shot, you know? Like, what do you have to lose? I really think people more often should be, like, investing their spot, and if it's dire, just freaking swinging. And I feel like the swing is not just to hit that side,

but to hit Eva. Because even though Eva is not as much of a jury threat, she had so much firepower that even beating that side, but keeping Eva in was not such a strong win. And I think that it's worth taking, trying to take Eva out at that point. So, so the rationale about going for Shaheen was about, okay, cool, They're more likely to

flip and not risk their game on a Shaheen rather than IBA. So that speaks to how well insulated their belief in IBA is. But again, that could be so marginal, particularly with their perception of that alliance. Like you say, their perception of that alliance is it's impenetrable. So are you moving that needle 10% by putting it on Shaheen and then leaving all the advantages in the game? And that risk-reward ratio is just not, it's still unlikely that they're gonna flip.

So it's unlikely, so let's go to Roxas, let's do the damn business and put it on Eva and give them a decision to make, knowing that perhaps the thinking from a Shaheen and a Kyle, perhaps they're more likely to flip because they know Eva's got all these advantages. She has a chance for her to go out, I'm not going to risk my game now. I'm in a good position. I've got something to lose.

And even though from an alliance perspective, four people at rocks from the opposing alliance are at risk and now Shaheen and Kyle would be at risk. So your odds of losing from the four people alliance are higher, you know? So the math falls in their favor. You don't really feel that way when you're one of the players going to rock. So when you've got nothing to lose,

the people with something to lose are more likely to flip. So put it on Eva, like you say, go for broke. You're gonna go make this big move. You're going to put your entire game on the line, give yourself the best possible fucking outcome, which is removing those advantages from the game. Don't just go take the shot and put your game on the line for something that marginally improves your position

or doesn't improve it as much as it possibly can. If you're going to put your game on go for the maximum award. Okay I'm excited that we're back to agreeing with each other because it feels right and I'm like still recovering from before when we slightly disagree. But yeah I mean it's a literal Hail Mary like do the most extreme thing and like I do agree that like they are more likely to go to rocks for Eva. I think Joe is immune, but even he might not put Eva into rocks, but we'll always support her. We'll never vote her out compared to a Shaheen. But Joe, who's immune, might anyway just never flip. But I do think that if you're a Shaheen and it's Eva versus Kyle as the option on the revote, maybe he should just vote out a Kyle, but he shouldn't vote out an Eva because Eva's

firepower is important to that group of three going forward. So I do understand that because she's the best target is why her group should keep her in. In saying that Kyle might be, and Kyle's really the one that should be targeting to flip, Kyle should really be looking, if he's going to look at anyone, I think he actually could vote out Eva because he's less kind of protected by her firepower because he doesn't need to be in that group. He has like his extra path with Camilla. And I also think for Kyle, taking out an Eva and flipping on Eva is a good situation. We will talk about it because keeping Eva in the game and taking out like a Joe does

expose Kyle because Eva is not really going to be targeted by herself. But if Eva can be taken out here as collateral to Joe, and now you keep a Joe and Shaheen in as shields, that does give him more runway going forward. And we can also shield and target like viable, not like proper, proper, proper targets. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we can talk about like Kyle's path and how he's not fully exposed in flipping, but so he can take out Eva there. I think that you just want to go for broke. Yeah. In, in targeting like an Eva there because it's still, it's like a half measure to be like, we're going to do the thing. We're going to go to rocks, but on a slightly better target. It's like, I get it other times, like for sure, when you're identifying rocks, someone

they're less likely to go to rocks for, so that you can win is a very important point, but not when the disparity in what that person remains with is that great. And Eva just has so much firepower. So I would have been looking at Eva there. Is there anything else on Ross? Because I'd love to talk about if Carl should flip it here and then. So this is where I wanted to go as well. I want to say that like Camilla should then be

as the one with the information and the more accurate read, because because Carl and Camilla, actually, if we think about it, don't even with the information and the more accurate read because Carl and Camilla actually, if we think about it, don't even have the power and influence, but Carl and Camilla actually have the most information in the game because they know where everybody stands. They're the only ones who truly know where everybody stands. Right. So with that knowledge, should Camilla be doing more to drive it towards an Eva vote, knowing that you know, Kyle wouldn't put his game on the line for Eva. Like, he's not going to put Eva's name down originally and completely burn that. He wants to play the middle. But there's enough for him to go like, dude, I had like a 50% chance and poorly play the

maths and go like, well, Joe, like it was going to be me or Shaheen and I had to put a 50% chance of me going home. These are my hopes and dreams. You can still recover from flipping on a boat like that. So I think that's where maybe Camilla should have been driving the even name in that group of misfits a little bit harder over Shaheen rather than just having a name

that's on the other side. But I guess maybe that's part of the attraction to her is that, well, she knows that Kyle can come over that way and that their numbers maybe potentially open up an additional option. But like you say, with all the advantages, it becomes very difficult to take another shot. Yeah, I do also think as well for Camilla,

this was so dead on arrival. Like Mitch was so out from like as soon as we see after the challenge, like it's just not we're not even in the position where we're talking about targets, you know, like we never got to that point because there were like so many other issues where like

Mitch is like, I don't trust her. It's like, well. Yeah, I think I saw this on Twitter. You're not and you don't have the luxury to work with people you trust. And it's good I have that. The people you trust are actively floating your name out and have told you when you're going home. You either have no one or the worst allies ever.

Yeah, something like that. We're told that you're out of there, Shannon. Just before we go into the car thing, because I think it does lead into it. I mean, he wins the Lord and he chooses to take Camilla, Eva and Shaheen leaving Joe behind. Joe's a bit pissed about that, but he self soothes and goes like, well, I think my boy's just left me here to monitor the kindergarten. He's done us a favor here. So again, great awareness from Carl on who and how to split people because, you know, the rewards always leave you with those, those dilemmas and how you split in the

group and who you're upsetting and who's emotional, who's hungry, who's rational. So well done to Joe for rationalizing even though he expressed his emotional response to it. Well done to Carl in that regard for having the awareness that knowing he's got that strong enough relationship with Joe that Joe's going to self-soothe. Yeah, this was also kind of annoying to me though because it's like I'm going to like really get them pissed off so that they can do Camilla's thing. It's like if it's come down to them like being pissed off or not about a reward, like it's too far gone. Like there are so many other reasons to flip, bitch. Sorry, I so many other reasons to flip Mitch.

Sorry, I'm just, I have a million dollars. Yeah. So yeah, there's a million other reasons compared to whatever the reward this was, where it's like, but this will be the trigger. Like, come on. Um, and that's on everyone else, but I will, I do think for Kyle, so Kyle has two flip options here. Like he can either, well, not really like either he's going to be the one to flip

when Mitch doesn't to rocks. And I'm like fully out on that because I think he does, he should have the opportunity at seven, even though it is getting, you know, it's, it's blocked up even before that for sure. It's a really tough spot, but I don't think he should have to go to rocks. I think that that's, that's like two, like, again, it's about, it's about identifying where you sit in the game and how big the swing needs to be based on how dire it is. And for Carl, it's not dire enough. So I don't think rocks is dire for him for like the Mitch's and the stars and the Marys of the world.

And Camilla like, sure, I see it, but not for Carl. So once Mitch isn't doing that, I don't think that he should do that. Should he be the fifth? Like, should he be like, it's not going to be rocks. I'm going to be five. That's knowing that as well, he could flip it seven. He's not going to flip it seven, but it is going to be a question. I wouldn't have been mad at it, especially with Eva as a target and taking out that firepower. I do think seven is tighter. Of course you would rather be too early than too late,

but I think that the concern for a Kyle is leaving himself, like this is actually genuine. This is what Mitch is worried about, but it's actually legit for Kyle, is leaving yourself exposed when you start taking out other threats. Now, if you take out Eva, you do have other shields, but there is the concern that you've left in what could be a final four without you of the Mitches, the Stars, the Marys, and Camilla without you. And I don't think he needs Star to make the move. And I think he's leaving it a little bit loose to be in a five when he could get down to be at a four and really shore it up at seven.

And I do think that that is better for him. But if he wanted a Tony Vlachos style, be a little early rather than too late, knowing they have so much power with Eva as a target and keeping in those shields, I wouldn't have been mad at it. But I don't think he needed star necessarily to make the move. I think that we can talk about seven we're about to about how I kind of think he can maintain power and protection while making a move at seven. And I think seven was can talk about Seven and we're about to about how I kind of think he can maintain power and protection while making a move at Seven and I think Seven was the spot for him, but like I never would have been mad at it, although I think Seven really was the spot. What do you think? So again, looking at this episode in isolation is I can see and I support why he made the decision

he made, decision he made. You're in the middle and he's playing this game down the middle and he wants to maintain that. And there's an opportunity where he lets them take a shot and he can maintain his middle position and therefore not exposing himself and an end. Kyle playing the middle, he's trying to give himself as many routes to the end as possible,

believing that he can outtalk anybody at the final club of council, right? So for him, it's about as many routes to the end. And by him playing the middle, he absolutely does give himself more routes to the end than by him actively flipping and taking a shot. And it could be a successful shot, but never see it coming.

The one thing that I didn't necessarily fully agree with the rationale was he says he's burned so many jurors, he's concerned about that, right? He's already actively talking about it. However, I'm going, okay, cool, you're worried about this person being emotional. You've got to now claim this move in final tribal council and say, actually, you know what, I was there, I did burn you. And now that person you're expecting them to get over it and forgive you in that final tribal council.

I'm like, sooner burn you here, play actively, let the move happen. Then if I am genuinely worried about their emotional response to it, then put them on the jury at the very last second where they don't have time to process at an end. So again, this is nitpicking, a very good game that he's playing. It's absolutely nitpicking and it's not that simple when you're in the moment. But I didn't think that his concern about

bitter jury was the best reason for him to play down the middle because it almost takes one of your strategic points off the table at final tribal council as well. Yeah. Yeah. I prefer to talk about the finals of the final seven because I think that that was Kyle's opportunity to flip and he didn't take the opportunity, but I'm happy to kind of get into it because- This is where he voices that.

This is- Yeah. So it's like two week thing. And again, I think eight is like an imperfect flip, but still some intrigue there if you want to get in on it earlier, especially because by the way, if you vote for Eva and she plays her idol, it really does seem like Star would go. And then at least you've taken out the idol, like at least that freaks things up a little bit at seven.

So like, yeah, you would have like gained and had that thought. Like kind of what Mary is saying that she can be later. It's like if they're protected, I'm going to want to. I'm the one who's going to take the hit like Star could have taken that hit. And they lost that opportunity to at least get an idol out like either. And Joe are there at the final five with the with the hit. Like, Star could have taken that hit and they lost that opportunity to at least get an idol out. Like, Eva and Joe are there at the final five with the idol and they never played safety without power. Like, just walking through the game. Anyway, that's the first thing. For Kyle flipping at either eight or at seven, and seven is a much more perfect flip, on the jurors getting angry, I do think that this is legitimate. I do think that this is one of the central questions

of where we're at in the last month of Survivor, which is you have to obviously play to the jury, you have to play as a season, you have to play as you have and the culture that you have. And I think that we, as a fandom though, have a little bit over-corrected because for so long, definitely Jeff would be like, make the move. And I'd like, I've been saying a lot, make the move. To the point where now it's like, no, no, no, you don't want to always make the big move.

That's like big move. I just said, we don't need to do that. And especially in the new era, because often people will just do random big move against their number one ally. And we're like, no, that's not always right. Actually don't make the move. But the reason that we've self-corrected too much is when you all, when then when you're like, no, don't ever make the move that again, it's too homogeneous and too broad, it becomes about looking at everything individually. And Kyle shouldn't make the move because it's always right to make the move. He should make the move because I think for Kyle at seven, it is the better choice. And I want to look at like the two things for him, which is one jury and two protection or insulation or like how exposed it will make him. And from the jury perspective, I think it's a little overblown. Like again, Joe could doom himself, Joe could tie himself in knots.

Kyle could be relying on speaking better than Joe and, you know, giving these cracks for Joe to fall into through the game and like pointing out his hypocrisy. And if he is reading the perception of Joe better than me or the jurors better than me, and if he can capitalize on that, I'm happy to wear that next week and to credit him for that when he wins a game in that way. But I do think on the back of Joe

not completely screwing this up, which he might, I don't think that the jury is so emotional or physical or loyal based. Like David for sure, Joe, if you take him out, will be angry. You probably won't get his vote and Eva, probably a tricky vote, but you might be sitting next to someone like an Eva. I think if you look at the rest of all the jurors

and potential jurors, there is a lot of like strategy votes here. I think Cedric could be a strategic vote. I think Chrissy, Chrissy like, you know, who was like take down the big guys will probably love that. I think Shaheen is not going to be bitter. I think he loves gameplay.

Mitch could be for gameplay. He should have been doing it at the final eight himself, as we've discussed. Camilla, of course, and star as well. That's one, two, three, four, five, seven of the possible jurors. Um, I would be just appealing to those people and like, hopefully Joe gets over it. And if he doesn't, like he's not the base. I think the fear of like these big, loud loud voices like a David and a Joe being the reason that jurors don't vote that way is actually not really looking at how some people have mostly been cheering for that type of gameplay to fall.

And if you're the reason that it falls, jurors may actually hugely credit that. So I actually think that's a little bit overblown in terms of the fear of we're a very loyal culture, a very like, you know, old school, which we'll talk about, but like, you know, can't be dishonest game. And I've been dishonest now. Yes, some jurors are going to hate that. But I think they're actually a minority when you go through juror by juror for Kyle. Yes. Yeah. I'm in agreement, right? Yeah. That's why my note was, I don't think that that rationale for him staying down the middle is a great one. But I don't think it negates the fact that I think by him making the decision he's made does keep him in a position to, with the most parts

to the edge. So I don't lament the fact that he's made the decision. It's just the rationale that he used about the jurors. And you pretty much summed it up. I can't add the fact that he's made the decision. It's just the rationale that he used about the jurors. And you pretty much summed it up. I can't answer that. Yeah. It's a great reasoning. Yeah. I do think that as well, I think jurors will be mad at you.

I think if you're going to get there with Joe, which is the other option, I think it's more likely that all those strategy-based votes I just tried to identify in the way I'm reading the jury at the very least will be more angry. Like, what have we been saying and like you let it happen like you're the ultimate you know embodiment of all the things we've been angry at and like we credit Joe but we blame you um so I think that if anything that's more of a jury concern other than will Joe like maybe he's identifying that Joe's not a great speaker or that Joe doesn't see his game so well maybe he's trying to exploit a lack of self-awareness.

And I think all of that is valid. I wouldn't rely on it. But again, if he's seeing it better than me and he can capitalize on it, I will certainly credit that next week. I also want to this is more for the final seven. But I also want to say on Kyle flipping and exposing himself. Now, if you take out like a Joe at a final seven, this is like the one opportunity to take out Joe. It's the only time he

was an immune the entire time I was away. Then the concern is like leaving Eva in the game is that Eva is, it's always Joe and Eva, but Eva herself is not a threat. So obviously the concern becomes, okay, so what if you've done that and now Shaheen who's pissed off, Eva who's pissed off and no one's targeting her. And then at that point Mitch Mitch and Mary all just come for Kyle, who at that point is the biggest threat. And he has only Camilla and he's in minority. Again, it's about balancing it about like, how much should he have to take the swing

when there is another pathway the other way. So it actually is an interesting conversation for Kyle. I do think that the one thing that he has and that he makes the flip at the final seven very valid is Mitch. Mitch is a fear-based player, right? Mitch cares about his own safety and they've had something since SEVA that Mitch has been trying to work with Kyle.

If he can flip at seven and be like, but Mitch, you can't flip on me because me, you and Camilla are going to be three of six and that's our safety. Like I need safety and so do you. We're in this like equal predicament. I really think he can get Mitch and for what it's worth for Mitch to be the one to flip on him with everyone at a final six, when he's taken out a Joe Mitch is kind of put player who now is a completely different human being. Like he flipped on Joe.

He's flipping back on Kyle. Like that person is now just Rob Sestinino. Like that's actually not Mitch. So I think shoring up at seven, especially with Camilla and Mitch through to six actually gets him in a good spot where he shouldn't necessarily be the next big target, even with Joe being gone. So I really think we've gone past him on my frequency, but I think that's been a bit... And Camilla's done well to build relationships with the other two. With Mitch especially.

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, even Mary, I think Mary's more likely to work with them than you know Eva for example right? Yeah I also think that Mary's a possible shield where you're like look what she did and I also think Jaheen's a possible shield as well so I think that there are a lot of out there but certainly as as well, I'd also be like, we're Siva strong and like Mary, if anything, is such a jury threat. Look what she just did. And she's got all the Vula stuff. So I think she's a pretty good shield as well. So I don't think that it would have just like been like popping his head up to take out Joe, get three shitty points and they get voted out. Like I do actually think at the final seven, not eight, but it's seven, especially. I think that's the move for him. And then try painting on like a Mary, a Shaheen

and get to a four with like Mitch, Camilla and Eva. I think that's a great path. Yeah, we missed the final HG. Where are we? No, no, yeah. So you jumped ahead a little bit because you're going to the final seven and I'm like, I wanted to go back to just the point

on the episode four for episode 10 is, we're just talking about the moments of, do they take the shot at Joe Eva at final eight before we even get to final seven? Do we take the shot there? And one of the questions I had was, this fell apart, you know, Joe wins immunity. It might've had a bit more traction prior to him winning immunity,

and then it loses all its legs when it shifts to Shahid, right? And Eva's kind of not even on the table. Do you think there's a chance that they muster up this Rocks plan if Joe doesn't win immunity, and they think Joe's a juicy enough target to do it? I don't think so. I mean, we'll have to hear from you.

Yeah. I mean, cause that's the one thing where you'd really discredit like what he did against David. Like if he was really going to be an open target, then you have to credit the fact that he's been protecting himself almost every round with immunity. However, so much of it was not about Joe as a target. Like that was one part of it. But Mitch was like, I don't trust star. Like that seemed to be a lot of it. And like, is Mitch going to trust star more for Joe? Like maybe if he's that juicy, but it felt like there were just other issues as well.

And also I know, like we're getting ahead of ourselves because Kyle's decisions, I think are again, so like recurrent through these four weeks. But I didn't, I don't want to go through without Morning Star, who, you know, like has been gone for weeks, but I'm still in morning that this was like a cool character. She was amazing.

And the producers, the editors, this is like the one Like they didn't, her castmates didn't get her. The editors didn't get her as much as they should have. We got her and we love Star. Yeah. Yeah. I will say like, it's painful that she was left out of the David vote. Like so interesting as well that like Eva and Joe

are like such swing votes. Like, hey, I don't think anyone's doing anything without them anyway. But like at the David vote, especially because Star's not even with the people on the bottom. She was David from the post swap. And that's like such a credit to, I don't think anyone's doing anything without them anyway. But like at the David vote, especially because Star's not even with the people on the bottom. She's with David from the post-swap. And that's like such a credit to, I guess, how this like core group, even in David going home, have like amassed all of the little side arms for themselves so that they only got together when

David almost got together, when after David was taken out and then Star and Mary are going to get together with Mitch. And the fact that they voted against Mitch was like against such an issue that he had. And that was just that just speaks to how much controlling power this group have had that they were able to pit the people on the bottom against each other and something Joe may have been relying on, which played out at the point where David leaves. So yeah, I think that that was really unfortunate. I also think that obviously she should have played a shot in the dark. Like it's not even an idol and things were dire enough.

But like Mitch telling her to play it feels like a fake out. Cause it's like, I don't like you. Like you're obviously going to waste it for next week. Ironically, I think her being like, I don't know if I'm going to play my shot in the dark was I think not a good move because then it's like, well, we can't leave her in. She might have a shot in the dark next week, but Mary definitely won't. At the very least you wanted to like play her shot in the dark. If it hits, they have a split on Mary.

If it doesn't hit, either you vote for her or Mary. But like either way, like she needs to play her shot in the dark. You have it covered this week, but you don't want her as the seventh outside of your quote unquote sixth, to have a shot in the dark next week where Mary doesn't. So it almost forced their hand to vote for her,

that she might not play it. And she was saying that she might not play it. That was just my one thing for Star. But I miss her. She was wonderful and look at Bella purring so loudly. In agreement. In agreement of how much she loves Star. No no, um, Kirsten and I, I mean when we were sitting watching we were just saying like, what a cool human, what great casting. Also feel like a bit, a lack of justice in the sense of like,

I would have loved to have seen more of Star. You know, we didn't get too much, we didn't get enough of Star, you know, the season. So I'm sad for that. And particularly when we've got these longer format episodes and she's such a fun character whenever she's on camera, like it's a joy to watch, you know. Yeah, I'm also just personally very sad. I think it's also sad that she just didn't quite find her footing in the game. It was just struggle and that can happen in a season, you know, it might just be the group you're with. It's not even necessarily a reflection on you as a player. Yes, you can say, yeah, if you play a better game, you'd be able to find the footing, you make a plan. Even Mary, who's been at the bottom,

has been making plans and whatnot. But I'm not going to sit here and criticize game, but I just think, yeah, I think she was an absolute joy and what a cool addition to the season for sure. Yeah, it was interesting they kept saying that she was too chaotic to work with. And you look at someone like Venus in 46 Like that actually kind of was true of Venus. Like it actually screwed up a lot of people's plans.

Like Charlie, for example, needs to work with Kenzie, who's going to beat him over Venus because she's unworkable. And that was actually true of a lot of people on the bottom not being able to work with Venus. Whereas I never got that for Star. Like maybe just didn't translate from a TV element. Maybe they were just misreading her in a way that was kind of unfair to her. But I don't think Star should have been the reason that the people on the bottom couldn't get together.

Like, I don't think that there was enough there for her being so chaotic. Whatever they were reading. Maybe her personality is big, vibrant, and her personality comes off as maybe chaotic. It doesn't necessarily mean her gameplay is as chaotic as that. Yeah. I mean, it needs to be pretty egregious to basically be throwing in your game, you know, to not work with her at the point where it's this dire. And I can't imagine how it could have been.

I've seen it before again, but I don't think it could have been that four star. But we kind of went past it, but let's get to the episode 10, Chilly, taking away Jacob Segerweiss scene and MC Kala. One, two, three. One, one, one, three, one, two, one, two, three. It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kind of cheesy. Three, two, one. Fun fact, I actually hung out with

Jacob Sager Wine scene in London as well. I feel on the day I bought the shirt. What a great day. One of many. What a great day. Yeah. How fun. He doesn't just exist in the intro to the Chizzi theme song. He's a real person.

It was funny as well because- That is his claim to fame though, right? I mean, I don't think so. I think he has a really good job in life. But then I hung out with Matthew Heywood from Survivor UK and he was like, I saw on Instagram you hung out with Jacob Seger Weinstein from the Chizzi. I'm like, yes. So at least Matthew Heywood was like, hey, look like he was doing the like Leonardo DiCaprio, like pointing me in my Instagram story. It's like that's a person for a future cheesy winner in will pass to the winner in Matthew Heywood as well. But for this cheesy, the rocks episode, the non rocks episode, which by the way, if I

had a nickel this year for every time they almost went to rocks anyway, um, I have two nickels I I wanted to give Joe six points. That's what passed me is saying about this cheesy Because I felt like what's Eva's path? What's Shaheen's path? We now know that Shaheen wanted to sit with them at the end I Don't I didn't love where Kyle was that even though I did understand Kyle not flipping I don't I didn't love where Kyle was at even though I did understand Kyle not flipping but past me wasn't crediting that and then I guess all the other four lost out so I gave three to Joe, two to Eva and one to Shaheen with a question mark and I have to stick by it because that's what I said at the time. What did you give? Yeah so I'm also looking at it for me Joe absolutely wins out this

episode he keeps his six intact he He wins a crucial, crucial immunity because there was, he doesn't realize it at the time, but there was murmurs of a shrine attempt. Crucial immunity went well done to him. Two for Kyle, I've given, and I've given it for maintaining his alliances and his middle position. He hasn't burned Camilla. He didn't agree with her. He didn't not agree with her, but he didn't go with her on a move, but he's maintained that relationship. And she was like, cool, you do you,

you can maintain your position. I'll do the dirty work here. I'll put my game on the line. He gets to play down the middle. He's still got all those pathways to the end. Whether we think they're winning pathways or not, you know, it stands to be seen. But I think he,

it was also just difficult to see anybody else really benefiting from this episode other than Joe. So, yes, he got my two points for sure. And then I've said like one point up in the air. And I think, you know, Eva, not for active playing, but she's, she benefits from from this episode probably more than anybody else. Like you say, everybody else kind of loses something this episode.

Everybody else has one fewer option going forward, one fewer opportunity to make a move against a stacked alliance. So I think Eva then, by proxy of just being a part of the six that's intact and all advantages, she gets the one. Okay. I'm doing so much math on the fly, but from where we're at of the people, actually, I don't have everyone else, but okay, I'm going to have it by the end of this podcast. We're going to know where we stand going into the finale, cheesy reading.

Yeah. Looking at this final seven, it was mostly around Kyle's decision, which I think we have spoken about. So do you think that Kyle should have taken the shot here at seven or do you? Because at the point where he doesn't, like they don't have the numbers at six because Shaheen never wanted to flip on Joe and Eva. We know that now through exit interview. So this was it. This was either we're going to pretty much resign ourselves to going to the end with, but undermining a Joe, versus we're gonna take him out. Do you think that Kyle should have taken it

knowing like, you know, he could expose himself knowing that jurors might be upset? Again, we've kind of spoken about that, but what would you have done for Kyle here? Cause I actually do think that this is like an interest. It's not like with like a, you know, open and shut case like it was for Mitch. Like I do think that Kyle's path,

because he does have some option in the other pathway with Joe, even sitting at the end with Joe, like there's something there. I don't love it, but there's something there. So it actually is an interesting conversation for Kyle. So where do you sit with him at a final seven, taking the shot or not?

Take the shot. I think particularly when you've just come off the back of Joe having one immunity, you know that Joe and Eva are both athletic. You know there's a lot of endurance, strength-based immunity challenges that can be thrown your way. So it's not just about Joe winning immunity, there's a double immunity threat in the advantages that Eva has. So your options are limited. So by not taking the shot here, you are basically guaranteeing that you are you can only get to final five or final four with them and

you're sitting next to next to like, you're guaranteeing their position at the end of the game, right? Yeah. And not necessarily guaranteeing your own. Yes, you're in a very, very strong position, a strong high likelihood of getting to the end. But I don't think he's giving himself the best case to win the game in this case.

So then my views change from episode 8 to episode eight, from episode 10 to episode 11, where I absolutely think this is the right time. With information we have as viewers and what we've seen, this is the right time to take a shot. Yeah, I mean, we can talk about it as we look into next week and everyone's jury chances. But I think with Joe, people like Joe. And we've spoken about this

even recently with Australian Survivor. It's like, if people like Joe, you know, and I, and we've spoken about this even with like recently with Australian survivor. It's like, if people like you, they'll, they will be open to respecting you. If people don't like you, they're not going to vote for you. But if they like you, and even if they like the person next to you more, then we start weighing up likeability versus respect. And they might vote for someone they like less, if they respect them more, if they still like you. Like Shaheen was saying, he thought he had better relationships, but Joe, I think would have so much more respect. And I think that Joe they still like you. Like Shaheen was saying, he thought he had better relationships, but Joe, I think would have so much more respect. And I think that Joe is so likeable.

And I would vote for a game like Joe's if he can speak to it. Because I think firstly, he has an amazing story. People love that. He's so likable that people like Kyle is crying in confessional about everything. Like everything does that and doesn't want to vote for him emotionally. It's such a win for Joe. Like that is a game move from Joe. Maybe it's not on purpose, but it's such a great game skill that he has that it's making Belloper.

Like listen to it. Um, he might get to five or six immunity wins as we're seeing, um, which will be very, very impressive and something that like, I mean, David probably not going to vote for him, but like some people might care about in this jury. Um, again, it's how much he can speak to him. It's how much he's going to be tripped up on his own kind of hypocrisy or lack of self-awareness, but you are relying on that there, where I think that he's going in it to win it. And I, yeah, it's not what I would bet on if I was a Kyle. He's resigned to it here, basically, at Final 7.

if I was a Kyle, but he's resigned himself to it here, basically at final seven. I think if Kyle doesn't win the game, let's say he's a losing finalist, right? So let's say he goes to final three and loses. I think this is the moment of his kura-shura-wura. Players leave the game and we often, we just go into those terrible cycles of kura-shura-wura, kura-shura-wura, kura-shura-wura, and it often comes to just go into those terrible cycles of could have, should have, would have, could have, should have, would have, could have, should have, would have, and often comes to this

like one specific moment. I suspect this would be the could have, should have, would have moment for him if that's the case. If he loses at like five at four or something I guess, I don't think then he reflects back on this because I think he still backs his game enough to say if I made it to three I would have won and he gave himself the best shot and he had all these opportunities and an end. So I think in the case of being a losing panelist, this is where he elements this loss of an opportunity. Of course, if he goes on and in any configuration wins the whole game, this is when he's going to look back at this and go, ha ha, fuck you Dino Shan, I was right. Yeah, 100%. And I'm willing to credit that. I still think that he has work to do.

Like I still think to do that. But if he's relying on the fact that Joe cannot speak at a Farmer Tribal Council based on his perception of his lack of awareness and his inability to speak about that and his hypocrisy, like if he's seen that in Joe that he will trip himself up and he's going to bet on that and then capitalize on that, Again, I will credit it when it happens. I think there's still work to do and I think you're still relying on him tripping up, which I don't love because that's not necessarily in your control. But maybe the control is, I know he's someone who will do that.

I've given him points to trip him up. I've created votes where I've made him hypocritical. Good luck speaking to it. If there's something quite well, even if it's Joe screwing up himself. At this stage, she hasn't done the Xihen thing. So it's not even as strong as that. But he has David. That's the one, it's a moment.

So it's not even like, I mean, he's got, yeah. It's nothing like super concrete. It's not consistent. It's a slip up, but the more consistent you get him to slip up, the stronger your argument. And he hasn't yet built in that consistency of slipping up. I agree. And I also think that my concern is firstly,

how much he doesn't want to do it. Like that shouldn't be anything, Kyle. Like for sure, I see the other debates, like I certainly see at least talking about, but like, I just can't do it. Like compelling AF for sure. Really interesting to see that, especially in the new era. However, not actually the reason to make game decisions. Very, very compelling from a TV perspective, and Carl's like crying about it,

but certainly not a good reason to not vote out Joe. And I also think my concern is that he's misreading a jury because the culture of loyalty has been so much there, but it's just not evident individually and actually like the culture on the jury might be completely the opposite, because they've all been voted out and have gone for the sake of the loyalty and been on the back foot of that. They might especially want to reject that kind of game plan, especially reward the person who finally cuts it down. Because it's like, if you're Chrissy and it took you out of the game, but then someone finally made a move, you'd especially want to

reward something like that. So I think if anything, you might be completely misreading the culture on that. So that's kind of my concern for where it is for Carl, because I will say, having like rewatch all four of these episodes today alone. The amount that people talk about Joe is extreme and it's the singular Joe. It's not Joe's group. It's not even Joe and Eva. It's just Joe, Joe, Joe. And that's the kind of thing that when he gets to the end, it's the singular Joe. It's not Joe's group. It's not even Joe and Eva. It's just Joe, Joe, Joe. And that's the kind of thing that when he gets to the end,

it's self-evident, you know, like we all thought he would get to the end. We have to give it to him. We see this with even like a Mike or a Ben. It's like, you should have taken the shot another. You have another he's gotten around that to the point where he's made it through. We have to give him that props and we have to criticize you for that not having happened. So I think that we see so much of that for Joe in a way that that's why I think

it's like his to lose here. And I think it's hard to rely on him actually losing it so that like a Kyle could win sitting next to him or Camilla. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you're going down the job path and I was having a squeeze over my notes here. Just after that, Kyle considering the flip, you know, at this point, without us knowing whether Kyle's taking the shot or not. Just prior to that confessional where he's super conflicted, one of my notes here was Kyle considering the float 20 days is number one with absolutely no one knowing is absolutely phenomenal between him and Kamila. So he's in a really strong position here. And then to your point that you're just saying that everybody loves Joe is, And then to your point that you're just saying that everybody loves Joe is, yeah, I bring up that exact same confessional where he's having a good cry going like, I don't want to hurt people, man.

And that's twofold. That's one credit to Joe for building those relationships and take himself off the table as an emotional guy. Because, you know, Carl talks about how emotionally invested he's been in Joe and how much he's shared with Joe. So we can see why Joe has the agency he does, which is great stuff from the editors because now we're getting insights into, you know, Joe's such an obvious move, make the move. It's not that simple, right? But also what I like about this confessional is that I used to, prior to playing, I'd sit and be like, guys, it's a game. You're playing for a million dollars. Make the game move. You've got to do what you want. People understand. And that's my competitive side. I'm also an empath. I get into the game and my Lord does that. It kills you. It is so much tougher

My Lord does that. It kills you. It is so much tougher than you can ever imagine. The emotional toll of voting people out that you've built solid relationships with that you really truly actually do love and it's unreal. You think like, oh, you've only known them for 20 days, but it's all you've known for 20 days. They've been your safe space. They've been your confidant.

You've had zero other distractions in the world. You've built a relationship at a rapid, rapid, rapid rate, an unreal rate. It only takes 10 days in a pod in love is blind before somebody proposes and they get married. So 20 days as survivors, you can build a friendship for life then by that logic. So I really appreciate that they've told their story of one, how Joe has ended up in that position of everybody's like father figure and confidant and how much of an emotional toll it takes on the place. It's disgusting. It is hard, man. Dino, when I was planning my wedding, I got quotes from different vendors, obviously. And then I got a quote from a couple of florists

and I met with this one florist and she gave me a quote and she was lovely. And then I got a quote from a different florist who was cheaper. So we had to go with a different florist. I cried. I'm not even gonna go with this. I cried.

It's so hard. It's so hard. I like, for sure. Like I have to say as a couch, I'm an analyst. Definitely. I'm like, make the move. My preference is that people, and we saw this in Australian Survive recently, like, cry about it, but then do it. That's what I want to see for sure. I couldn't be more of a poser telling people to just work on mutual incentive and make

the move. I cried letting the florist down. She was a lovely lady. She deserves the business. The other place just had cheaper rates. It killed me. We're the same on this. I don't know how you played survival.

I couldn't do it. I definitely couldn't do it. But I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. You know, it killed me. We're the same on this. I think then I couldn't do it.

I could definitely couldn't do it, but I'm not out there being criticized. Okay. And that's the choice I've made. Maybe you have to get voted out first and build up some sort of like, now I've got to protect myself and do what I need to do because they'll vote me out anyway. And you know, that's the way to do that.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What we haven't touched on here is, I know it's because it's almost inconsequential, but let's have a little bit of fun with it maybe, but Eva chooses not to go for Knowledge is Power, Best Play is, she did the right thing. She protected her vote, she didn't go for Knowledge is Power,

while into having the awareness. And I think the producers in the back there were dying when that rock draw came and Eva pulls that little fucking purple rock. They must have been kicking themselves and going, can you fucking believe it? Because if Joe or Eva get it, it's the same outcome, right? At the stage of the game. But if literally anybody else gets it,

it makes, it really gives the shaker that the game maybe needs. Not Shaheen, Shaheen wanted to go to the end with them. I don't know about Kyle. Like I think we had a three out of four stabbing challenge. It gives Shaheen options and it gives him temptation and he's a game player. He studied the game.

Yeah. He'd consider it. So that would corrupt slightly. And he's corruptible. So I think, I don't think he would have been as steadfast. I think he wants to go to the end with him because there's the sheer fire. And he's a, what's it, a debate professor?

Like he backs himself to outtalk anyone, to the end with him because there's the surefire and he's a what's it the debate professor like he yeah he he would he backs himself to outtalk anyone but at the same time he's a survivor player survivor super fan he wants to make moves he wants to he doesn't want to just sit idly by and let the game pass by and then talk himself up at the end like there's an opportunity i think he'll take it so um we can lament the fact that Eva got it, but at the same time, there's something comical about it as well. It's just like, and her approach is like, hey guys, you would all be dying when I pulled it. It makes no sense because guess what? It's knowledge is power. And it's just so funny the way she approaches it and I have a huge appreciation for like how open and honest she is. And yeah, I mean, she seems super, super lovely. And you can see the pain

on everybody's faces like, as like that could be our moment, you know, like a Mary just dying on the inside. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't even know if I mean, Mitch, maybe, who knows with Mitch, I think with even with Camilla, like Camilla to be risking her vote at that point, which she possibly thinks that Kyle is so important there and actually losing her vote at seven might be worse than, you know, if you get knowledge is power, but you don't have the votes, like, what are you going to do this? Maybe she doesn't risk a vote just because the vote is so important. Mary, like, Mary thinks there's nothing. Mary, Mary, 100% is, is take, you know, trying to get knowledge of power. But the crazy thing is like, if Mary risks her vote, doesn't have a vote, gets knowledge of power

and they all just vote her out with knowledge. Well, she she well, then she plays the idol. You're right. So then she's fine. So Mary is the one that that's that's the important one. She still can't. That's that's the important one. Camilla, I don't know if you risk her vote because then you also have to steal Eva's idol.

If she gets it, yeah, and that would work for the. But then you have to gain that you're risking a vote to do that. And so then it's a three, you don't have knowledge is power. And she thinks that she's trying to get Kyle's vote over and then they don't even have the numbers anymore. I don't know if she does it. I don't know where Mitch sits with things because that's a very active move for Mitch to be stealing an idol. Kyle, I don't know if Kyle like Kyle does

that because Kyle's struggling and Shaheen Shaheen's in a similar spot to Kyle through all of these votes, except that Shaheen has less to flip to with Camilla and possibly with Mitch and a SEVA possible thing. And also we know really wants to stay with Joe and Eva. I criticize him the same way I criticized Kyle for wanting to go with Joe and Eva.

I think that it's a bad spot and a similar place for both of them. And I don't back what he was saying in the X interviews about like, why was the real brain? It's like, when people always talk about Joe, you know, star calls them the brains, but like, otherwise, like people all on Joe. And like, perception is reality. That's the narrative. I don't think that like his moves are in comparison to Joe being at the top of the hierarchy and winning out to get to the end. So I think that Shaheen should make a move, but I think he has less to jump to.

So I'm kind of more critical on the overall path where Kyle, I think, has more options. So I don't know if it was as much like 2v5 as we saw, but it was definitely worst case scenario for production that like, yeah, she definitely doesn't need knowledge of the powers, so why would she risk a possibly important vote if there's gonna be a, well, they can, yeah, if there's to be a flip of just a three, say she thinks she has Kyle, which she should, that could make it 3-3. So it would make it more interesting,

it would make the dilemma more interesting and it would be great to see how they play through. And again, it gives the other players a bit more agency in a way for their own outcomes, right? So, yeah, you know, Kamala decides to keep her vote over going for Knowledge is Power is far more interesting than, you know, and Eva just going like, eh, don't need a Cheers bar, you know? And so even in that, even if the outcome is nobody has knowledge is power, how it gets there, you know, can be a bit more interesting. Yeah, I think as well with Eva, like with Eva, if say it was knowledge is power, say it's like another idol, even though her vote has been somewhat important, I think that

you go for knowledge is power because it's like, if you just have a perceived four votes, they would have to be like, she just would have to just tell no one that she's lost her vote. And then three people aren't going to vote against the four probably anyway. So you just have the numbers on just the threat of that and the fear of that. We know she's not necessarily the best liar, but like, if you can come back and just be like, oh, I kept my vote then, and just give the same story that she gives now, but it's not true. And say, you just kept your vote and that the power of that four alone is probably enough. So the vote's not even that important,

just like the perceived power of her vote is important. However, knowledge of power was so unimportant, there was no point. Had it been for something else, she almost might as well have risked her vote and she probably would have come out okay with it anyway. And that just speaks to how low the stakes were on a group that has sewn it up beginning until end here

with like Joe and Eva doing that. And again, then credit to Joe and Eva for doing that. And you know, actually, something I wanted to mention earlier was, you know, Eva, you know, starts this game and says that, you know, with autism, she does not pick up on social cues. She doesn't know who to trust, who's lying to her. You know, she's actually got a far greater handle on it than she gives herself credit for, right? Yet, you know what, she's actually got a far greater handle on it than she gives herself credit for, right? Case in point is, and again, credit to Joe, but she identifies Joe as that person and that confidant. And that has paid off incredibly well because he has been that and he's never faltering. So she got that 100% right, right? Other things that she gets right is like early in the game, you know, with the whole David, Mary debacle, she's like, well, I trust David and Mary for me. I don't trust them for the others. And

she was 100% on the money with that. So, like, you know, I just want to say, I just want to say, like, you know, for somebody who, who, who talks about their autism so openly and says like, this is a real struggle for them. And this is where they they lack, you know, she's really doing very well in an area that she lacks. And maybe her approach to this is a real struggle for them and this is where they lack. She's really doing very well in an area that she lacks. And maybe her approach to things and how open she is, and sometimes strategically these little nuances on how you convey information back to people.

Maybe there's quite a... She's about too straightforward at times with that. I mean, if you're being super critical, but her reads on people have actually been really, really good. So I just want to say like fucking big up to her and I hope she sees that and she kind of trusts her intuition a little bit more going forward because she does. She obviously does have it in her more than she thinks she does. Yeah.

Well, I'm about to disrupt that a lot. And when we talk about the chizzy. I do agree with you generally and I've been giving her chizzy points to this point, but as I can see from my notes, it started falling off right around here. So take it away, Jacob Seger-Weinstein and MC Kala. One, two, three.

One, one, one, three, one, two, one, two, three. It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kind of chizzy. Three, two, one. It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kind of cheesy. Three, two, one. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale expertise and innovative payment solutions.

Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. We're doing well, we're doing well. I started realizing here, I'm like, you know, we talk a little bit about like a bit about like, what's Carl going to do against Joe? What's he going to do? I'm like, what's Eva going to do? Like, what is Eva's winning path here? And that's when I started, that's when I stopped giving Eva cheesy points, because I was like, you can't just be like Joe and Eva, like one person is going to win and it's not going to be Eva. So, ironically, in the fishy, because I also binged a lot of know-it-alls in the last couple of days.

Um, Rob said that Joe should be getting the fishy every week until he wins the game. And then this episode, they gave it to Camilla. I was like Camilla, Mary, Mitch all lost. I know I completely, I was like, what? Um, for me, I want to give Joe points. We'll talk about like the final week with Shaheen, but I was like, I want to give Joe points. We'll talk about the final week with Shaheen, but I was like, I want to give Joe points while he's still in power and maintaining control. So Joe got three points for me. And then again, I felt like he should have got six. I didn't have anyone really

to give it to, but I didn't want to give it to Eva because I'm like, Eva doesn't have a plan other than sitting with Joe. And it's so, we barely talk about it because it's just, that's all there is. Like we're criticizing it or talking about it it or at least like debating it for like the cars and the Shaheens. Like Eva as much like can't beat Jo and what is her path and she has no other path. So Eva I don't think has a winning path and we can talk about it for next week. But I think she got into this kind of parented role with Jo, which really showed her age, which will make it hard for her to get respect and be voted for.

So I've stopped giving Eva chizzy points as much as we just talked about the first thing she's done. But yeah, if Joe wasn't such an ass guy, you'd call it Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Well also, but it's just also like where it's like, it's like Shaheen, but even worse, like where else is she going to go? But this is not a winning path for her at all. And the way that people talk about her more than anyone, more than Mitch, more

than anyone, I really don't think she has a winning path. So I'm not giving even any more points. Joe gets straight. So then I'm like, who now? Can't give it to Camilla, Mitch or Mary. Mary went home, who couldn't get it done here in this unanimous vote against Mary. Also, this was the one where Joe was being very paranoid about the vote split. And again, some of that speaks to how he might not speak well, might be hypocritical, out of that speaks to how it might, he might not speak well, might be hypocritical at a final tribal council.

In this situation, I don't think the paranoia matters that much compared to the control that he's had. So I'm still giving him three points. I think all of that is kind of like more like window dressing on like his actual structure and power in the game. I gave Shaheen two points, who's about to go home, but Shaheen, because we have the integrity of the Chizzi,

he, I felt like turning again, turning on them is more dicey for him. He has more of a foothold in this group, possibly than Kyle, although they are about to choose Kyle over Shaheen. But this is the integrity of Chizzi. I thought he had less kind of with the other side than Kyle. So this is kind of where he sits. And like in the way that Joe might not be able to speak at a final tribal council, that's the shot for Shaheen. So I gave him two. And then I should be like criticizing Carl the most because I really think this was his shot. He should get no points for that.

I don't like that he didn't turn. I should punish him the most. However, I do see our both pass the heart and there's maybe something there. I said here, I still think he has a shot. So I gave Carl one point despite criticizing him for not turning, despite giving him no points at the final eight where I don't think he should have turned.

But it's very, very hard where I feel like, you know, Joe's either got it or he's going to lose the final tribal council. And then at that point that he's going to lose the final tribal council, I feel like I have to start crediting people who might beat him and are in a position to beat him. So those are my points. What were your points for this episode where Mary went home at the final seven? Again, I also struggled to see the additional points, but Joe Three, he's exposed and Joe gets his way and he maintains his alliance. And, you know, he's got the emotional bonds. People won't take shots at him even when he's exposed. And that was the best time to take a shot at him. So easy Joe three. I did what you didn't do and I gave Eva the other two again. It was, yes, now I'm listening to your logic of going like, well, you know, is she really strengthening her case to win the game? Not necessarily, but she does benefit from this episode again, you know. So she does benefit from this episode again, you know, so it's, it's hard not to give you the points where, where I think

everybody else's game is hurt far more than, than her game, right? I think, and I did something very unconventional and please don't judge me here because I think my reasoning is sound. No, why is it? I gave Mary one. Okay, that's fine. I didn't know she got the booty. I can give you something for standing up because I almost gave him the fishy. Okay, that's fine, that's fine. We're gonna come back to you.

No, I'll tell you why. You know, if I could, I love Mary, right? And so this is my thing. She's played from the bottom and from so many different type positions and she's willing to, she's the type of player that could have been and would so very nearly the catalyst to change this game. I appreciate the freaking hard ass work she put in week in, week out or day in, day out

to get herself out of the position that she was in. And she made, she came up with strategically sound ideas. She did her best to execute. Okay, there were times when her approach wasn't as great, but like, you know, for the most part in these more recent episodes, her pictures were really fucking good and they gained some traction, you know?

And you hear like Kyle says, she makes a great point. And Camilla's like, oh, she's got great, you know? She's got these ideas and she's playing fucking hard and not to just not lose. She's trying to put herself in a position where she can actually like really get a foothold in the game and give herself an opportunity to get to the end where if she does tell her story,

I'm like, man, I respect how she's gotten there and how she's fucking scrounged her way through and made a plan. So the fact that she's willing to go to rocks the previous episode, the fact that she's here, not just rolling over and accepting her fate and putting in a good shift. I'm like, you know, it's stuff that you did damn well. You did more for your game than other people did for theirs this episode, even though you went home.

Okay. Well, math is hard. No, no, no. I mean, it's fine. Like, there's no right. I joke about the reading and everything else is whatever. Like I'm not that, I'm not hard on it. Cause I think there's nothing there for anyone else pretty much. Um, I think through these couple of votes where Joe's just maintaining it, but math is really hard and my handwriting is terrible. So I don't know that I have this right, but it's very close at the moment. I have Kyle on 23 and Joe on 22 going into our last chizzy points with all the

finale. So we'll see where that gets to. And I think that is correct. But we're going to have to see on the charts through the week. But we got a meow from Bella, too. She's like, that's wrong. I'm like, I don't know, Bella. I don't know. OK, well, up to the final week, because an hour and a half

were up to the week of the show that is relevant to the audience. I hope everyone is enjoying my little trip down memory lane for the two of us, but okay. So we talked about this at the beginning and it speaks to the same thing. It's thank you for the cohesion of this podcast, players of the game. Yeah, it's about where are we gonna give you the points here? Is it Carl and Camilla winning because they nigh Joe?

Is that enough to undermine them at a final tribal council or is resigning yourself to sit with Joe at the end enough of a win to Joe win this? Who for you wins the day on the Shaheen vote? Is it Carl slash Camilla or is it Joe? Absolutely. Absolutely. So for me, it's, there's this, a big part of it is making other players make mistakes. And again, you go back to a poker analogy, anytime you can get somebody to make mistakes is a win for you. So they've actually actively gotten Joe to misread the game. And Joe is a stupe man. I love his intensity, the way he watches people, the signs he picks up on. And that's just not like posturing. Some

people are like, oh, I'm pretty aware. I'm a high-yacht stupe. He's in tune with people and he picks up and instantly is like, this could be bullshit, it might not be bullshit. And he's gonna make a decision here on who's hoodwinking who here, right? And Kyle and Camilla come up with a great story. They sell in the right way as a duo, they do a phenomenal job. And again, because they aren't perceived as a unit,

it's believable. They understand their perception. They understand how people perceive them perception, they understand how people perceive them individually, they understand how people perceive them together, and they do do something that's pretty bold that could blow up every plan that Kyle in particular has laid out here. Kyle's big idea was to get to this point to make sure that Joe and Eva take them to the end. And he's putting that at risk now. He's been somewhat passive in some instances in the previous two votes to get to this position where they're guaranteed to take him to the end.

And now he wants to shake things up with Shaheen as a risk because he knows that, you know, he's talking about who's going to pull the move first, right? So I definitely think it's a win on Kyle and Kamila's part because then Joe gets that rock. I think what I would have loved to have seen is, Shaheen and Joe together at the sanctuary, Shaheen says, oh, do we take a shot at Joe? How much of that factored into Joe's thinking of like, actually, Carl might have a point because Shaheen's just pulled the trigger

or is looking at pulling the trigger on Carl. Sorry, did I say that right? Shaheen and Joe at the sanctuary and Shaheen says to Joe, let's take a shot at Kyle. Does this fact into Joe's thinking when Kyle says, hey, you were away, the two of us were talking, and he was talking about taking a shot at you. Like, does that play into the narrative here

and cement some of that idea that, oh, no, Kyle's telling the truth and not Shaheen. So I think Kamila and Karl did a freaking phenomenal job. And like you say, is it enough to win the game? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps not, but I definitely think it strengthens the game and it weakened Joe's position. Yeah, I mean, it might have factored in for Joe because the legitimate thing that Kyle is using is the fact that Shaheen will go through every person and be like, what are the plans just from like a, you know, brainstorming position compared to, and he does that with Joe as well, but we know from the exit interviews that he was going to go to the end with Joe and Eva. So

it was more just about thinking about it, but you can't imagine that he'd be having those conversations because he does legitimately have those brainstorming conversations even with Joe, Eva. So it was more just about thinking about it. But you can't imagine that he'd be having those conversations because he does legitimately have those brainstorming conversations even with Joe. And those are the same kind of should we do it conversations that he has with Kyle. And if you're using that, there's some validity to it, even though he's never going to follow through on it. I have gone back and forth on this. At first, I was like strong wind for Joe. I still maintain that it's still a bigger win for Joe here. Now it's the most that Carl and Camilla can do. They can't take out Joe here because again, they'd have to go to Rox. Anyway, Joe's going to win immunity, but even if you're trying to blindside Eva,

they're never going to have the ability to split the votes because Joe wins immunity. They're never going to have the number in Shaheen. They're never going to have a majority here to take out Joe and Eva. The numbers have been lost because it wasn't taken at seven and that's my main criticism, although I did just give Carl a cheesy point for it. But that was the path that they chose. In that path here, they're undermining Joe. That to me is still kind of weak. That to me is still just not what I would prefer. So it's still for me, the fact that Joe can get here so protected in every possible way to me is the bigger win. He loses Shaheen apparently on a bad read. However, much like David, that bad read is,

well, suboptimal, you're taking me to the end instead of Shaheen. And that's still the worst plan. And it's still that they're going to the end with him. It's not that bad. Yes. So overarchingly, that's the narrative, but you're still at least taking chunks out. So we talk about who wins this episode. I mean, if we're talking, you know, when we start thinking about chizzy points and whatnot to me, then you can just give Joe chizzy points forever and a day because of earlier work that he's done and stronghold and the advantages that they've held and the power they've had in the game. And I'm like, but episode by episode, who's moving that notch up and who's

moving the notch down and I'm like, Carl and Camilla definitely notching up and, and Joe notching down. And even though you're saying suboptimally, I still think, I still think they're giving themselves a fighting chance to, to have a good final trouble council and to win the game. I know, I know the editor is telling us a story and Joe's had an absolute stranglehold in this game, but it's not infallible. It's not, and like you say, from our perspective,

it's not maybe it's a bit, the way you talk about it, it's a bit grasping at straws, but I don't see it that way. I think they've done a really, really good job here. And on a player who is a game player, you know, Shaheen, who respects gameplay, who won't turn around and be like, oh man, you guys, you guys screwed me. He'll absolutely respect that they got Joe, the most loyal guy in the world,

the most loyal guy in the world to make this mistake and take Shaheen out on a good play, on something that he'll appreciate on the live, on an idol. I think Shaheen will appreciate something like that. So I definitely think that both Carl and Camilla strengthen their shots at winning more than weaken it. I don't think it's a shot in the dark. I don't think it's one in six odds for them. I think going forward to next week, I gave Joe 50%, Carl 30%, Camilla 20% on game and edit. I think to Joe's slightly higher in the game, I actually think the edit is doing quite well. So you're still giving people 0% chances. You have not learned?

You have not learned? No, I learned nothing. I thought I would stop doing it at a final two. At a final three, even though I did give Gabe a 0% chance with you, and said I'd never do it again. I think Eva has more in the edit than 0% chance, but I don't think from a game perspective Eva can win. I think Mitch has more in the game, but I don't think from an edit perspective he can win. So I think that Mitch probably doesn't win if he gets to the end, but they have said that he's

something of a threat. I think Mitch has gone next. And I don't think there's an edit there for Mitch to win. They've really painted him as like a bit of a fool. And I don't think they'd give that edit to a winner. So he has zero on edit. And I think Eva has some in the edit, but zero on game. So I've given them both zero. I'm happy to have egg on my face because I love egg. You know what I mean? So I think that that's why that's why I've gone to that. So I don't think it's a shot in the dark for both. I think, I think that there's something legitimate there. I wonder if it was just on game, if it's more like 60, 25, 15, but on game and editor gone 50, 30, 20. Because I really think the editor has shown a lot

of Kyle's game and a lot of Camilla's game and actually showed holes in Joe's game and gone out of their way to do that. So I think it does give them even more of a shot than actually might even be true possibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know about the percentages, I guess. Hello, I've now got the doggos joining me as well. So yeah, I mean, I think going into finale, I mean, if you're talking about Ante Forini, I can't in good conscience give a zero.

You know, we've seen a number of times throughout the season, people talk about if you look at game and edit, right, talk about Mitch in a way that if he gets there and he's got a great story. He's funny. They had a whole scene about him. He's funny. Yeah. How lovable and good a human he is. He is a challenge. I mean, he's a huge challenge threat. He's done well in challenges. He's super switched on when it comes to challenges. So I don't

I can't in good conscience give zero so I can give like five and five. I think I think if Eva if Eva if Eva sits at the end without Joe, which is her only chance of winning, is like in a configuration of Camilla Mitch-Eva, I think. That's probably, in my mind, off the cuff her best shot at having a chance because she's going to struggle to articulate the game and somewhat, I think she'll struggle somewhat to articulate the game and somewhat, I think she'll struggle somewhat to articulate the game and hit the points the jury wants to hear. But I think Joe being on that jury, he would advocate incredibly hard and Joe had that

influence in the game. And I think that that influence will extend somewhat to the jury, right? He'd advocate hard for her. That gives her a shot. And I think Camilla being the quiet of the two players between Kyle and Camilla and her game of being as visual gives even outside chance. So again, I think Camilla hands down for me wins that and especially if Kyle's in the jury, Kyle can advocate hard for Camilla. I'm just talking about Eva not having a zero percent. And the same for Mitch.

And I think for even Mitch and Camilla, that final three is all of their best shots at winning the game. But it's an unlikely final three. It's unlikely that you're gonna see that as a final three. It means someone other than Mitch has to go at five, and someone other than Joe or Eva has to win individual immunity and then still beat the other one at fire.

You know, it's pretty tough. So I just can't, like I said, I just can't, I can't give them a zero. What are the percentages you're giving them for this final five? So I'm giving Mitch and Eva five and five. I'll give Camilla a 20, Carl a 30. Maybe I'll give Camilla a 15, a Carl a 30 and a Joe a 45, mostly because of Joe's edits. I think gameplay wise,

I think Carl is freaking phenomenal as well. I think Camilla is phenomenal as a player. And I think if you take them individually and put them across 40 different versions of this game with 40 different casts, I think they do exceptionally well across the board. And I think Joe as well, but I think Joe found his season and managed it really, really well. I think there's still a part of me that thinks that the player and Kyle would outplay Joe across 20, 30, 40 different versions of the show. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about this one. So game and edit in this one, Joe, Joe at 45,

Kyle at 30, Kamala at 15, the other two five at five. Yeah, I think that that's very fair. And I also think that they, if this has been Joe's season and it definitely has been, I mean, Joe, most newer seasons, like people don't let Joe get to the end, like let alone like, okay, how are we going to be against Joe at the end being our best possible shot against him? And that's something he would need to find other ways

to protect against the way to protect against it here was super valid for this season. And it worked really well for this season, which was on, I guess, like making people love you. I mean, if that's going to protect in other ways, that would be good for him. But in most other seasons, they do the thing, you know, they get the cheaper florists, even if it makes them cry. And that's not necessarily been this season. So I think Joe has real skills. I just think that other people are more likely not maybe in other seasons, Colin Camilla more likely to do it So I think Joe has real skills. I just think that other people are more likely, not maybe in other seasons,

Kyle and Camilla are more likely to do it. I think maybe other people are more likely to do it. And I also think this culture of the season has been like oppressive to some, like Kyle might be the kind of person who will always cry about voting out Joe, maybe, but in other seasons, it might be like, but within the culture of like, yeah,

that's just what we do. If it's more of a lighter, like gamey a culture, it might not feel as impossible to them. So I think that the culture, which Joe to his extreme credit has helped to create, but I think that that culture has really maintained the structure. A lot of that is on Joe and a lot of that has like pushed down the games of Karl and Camilla because I think as well for Karl and Camilla here. Firstly, what they mostly gain here, and I really want to credit, like I think this is a lot better for Camilla than. Firstly, what they mostly gain here, and I really want to credit,

I think this is a lot better for Camilla than it is for Kyle, because Camilla just went from fifth to fourth. That in itself is enough. That's a big leapfrog to get to the point where now you're out of, now you're into fire. That's massive. If Mitch was gonna go here,

then there's nothing they can do about her being out next. This is the first time that I feel like them being number one has actually played out. And the best thing that Kyle gets is he can now have his cake and eat it too, where he wanted to be loyal to Joe and Eva, he wanted to be loyal to Camilla, and he found a way where he can actually get

to the final four with both, because New Era Survivor gives the out of, you just need a final four, and he actually did not have to choose between them because he got it done here. I don't think that's necessarily the best for him because it maybe means, it probably means sitting with Joe, which I don't think is great. the best for him because it maybe means it probably means sitting with Joe which I don't think is great

but in what he wanted to happen he made that happen and big ups to the master class yeah I mean but I don't know so know that I agree with it being like I think that he should just be taking the shot however when he could have however yes for Camilla she has now moved up and for what he wanted to happen he got it done so that I wanted to credit I think as well it's like what makes the number one this whole time? It's like Camilla's my number one. OK, but you've been empowering Joe this whole time. You know, how is Joe not your number one?

Has he not been here as well, like completely being fed by you this whole time? I'm in terms of the game like, yes. But I think this is the first time we see that he could at least he's protected. Camilla many times at the Chrissy Boot. He could he protect so he gets her through. I don't know that I can say that she's been his number one in essence over Joe, who he's also maintained through this whole game. So I just think that's kind of an interesting thing. You can say it enough that person's your number one, but he's also been working with Joe this entire time. So I do think that this,

it's a big individual win for Camilla. It gets Carl what he wants, so I don't agree with it. And it does undermine him a bit. And we're gonna see how that plays out next week. I think for Joe, I still have to give massive credit to the fact that he can't be taken out here. No one wants to take him out here. He then is immune here.

Like protection on every single level beyond what he should have. And even before he's immune, no one's even looking to take the shot at him. And I think that that is insane to me. Like, at the point where Eva has an idol, Joe hasn't won immunity yet, the four of you should be like splitting the vote to flush the idol and take out a Joe. No one's even thinking of doing that. And like, that's at the point where, like, okay, so Shaheen takes Joe through to reward to fuel him.

Like, okay, maybe you don't want to like show them that you're going to be coming to him before he wins immunity. But at the point where if he doesn't win immunity, like you can show them because you're going to be splitting the vote, hopefully. But no one's even looking to do that. And then he's taking him on reward.

Everyone is empowering them at every single step. But the loss is that you took out Jaheen so that I can take you to the end. Okay? Like I'm still sitting at the end. So that's what I would be saying if I was Joe. I don't know that it's enough of a win here. I think it's like the small wins against Joe's immense, immense power.

And I've gone back and forth on the chibi with it, but I just, I feel like to me, Joe continues to just be winning to extremes. Even when he's losing, he's winning. Isn't that phenomenal? Really? Like even when he's losing, they're taking him to the end. For me, that's a lot. I want to take a moment to go back and contradict myself slightly when I was talking about like

the players winning all iterations of the season and we talk about Joe having an immense hold on the season and maybe it's not every season, but again, to Joe's immense credit, he doesn't have a hold on a season of players who don't know the game. They're all game players. I mean, there's, you know, you've got your Shaheedans, you've got Kyle, you've got Camilla, you've got Mary. They're like, they're all gaming. They're playing fricking hard, you know?

It's not like he's got a hold on a whole lot of these recruits who don't get it, you know? Like, there have been a number of people who have fallen by the Joe game, who have't get it. There have been a number of people who have fallen by the Jo game, who have bought into it, bought into the culture to some degree, who really know the game. Or even if they didn't buy into the Jo, they know the game and they were actively against it. So to his credit, it's not like he's done this and hits a luck with a cast that just doesn't necessarily know the game. He's done this in a highly astute game-playing cast,

and we're just frustrated because we're seeing their games being startled. Yeah, and I also think as well, David obviously hugely contributes to that culture. Eva having that relationship with Joe also in general contributes to that culture, but it can't just be like, oh, well, this was the culture for him because he is also such a big part of enact to that culture. But it can't just be like, oh, well, he really, this was the culture for him because he is also such a big part of enacting that culture. And we actually had a question from a listener that I thought was a really good question that feeds into this from George on Twitter, who says, how important is intentionality in gameplay for you personally, as well as for the jurors? It's relatively, it's relatively inarguable that Joe

has had a vice grip on this game since the merge. But how important is that in the case it was, is that in the case it was was, is that in the case, it was more a function of a personality rather than intentional strategy. And what I wanted to say on this, because I think it speaks to it is, it will speak to all of this, is, you know, if someone tries to make a move and it goes badly

and their intention is wrong and they get lucky or circumstantially, I'm harsh on that. Like that's a lack of intentionality that I'm harsh on. But the fact that Joe is just so... Sorry, my technical issue, Bella. Bella broke the stream. I'm going to blame Bella. No, I think that with, yeah, so with Joe, I think that he, it's not passive to, okay,

it's not intentional that everyone loves him too much to vote him out, but it's also not passive. Like being so lovable that people cry about voting you out and then won't do it, even when everyone's screaming at them to do it, is an active skill. That's not just like you try to do something and then unintentionally got lucky. Like that's not luck or circumstance.

Like that's a real skill in the game. Like being that likable is pure social capital. We talk about like social capital and spending it. Maybe Joe's thing is he's just had defensive social capital. We're talking about defensive gameplay. You know, it's different to Rachel, but certainly speaking about Rachel using some capital defensively in the way that she won last year.

For Joe, okay, maybe he's not actively spending it on these little moves, these little purchases as we see Jaheen does or Kyle is. I feel like Kyle's spending that money, but Joe is just so wealthy socially. And that is a massive, massive skill in the game. So yeah, I really do think I credit it hugely. It's Joe in Confessional laughing and being like, ha ha ha, I'm evil and everyone loves

me so much, but I actually don't like them. Like, this is, you know, an act so that they like me so that I win and they take me to the end and they vote for me. Like, no, maybe that's like a more like intentional seeming gameplay. But the fact that they just do love him so much and the fact that they can't vote him out and the fact that a social game is the material of survivor to me is massively credited, even if he wouldn't speak to it in the way of like, I know that this is what I'm doing or, you know,

it's so planned. It's who he is, but who he is is clearly phenomenal in this regard of the game. So I think it is a great question. And the question is, do we value the intentionality and does a jury value intentionality? So I want to speak from my standpoint.

I've always believed that if I ever got onto a jury, that to play a good game is not about a preconceived idea of what a good game is in the sense of like, oh, I like a player to do X, Y, Z. It's about, for me, understanding the players' understanding of themselves. Like, what do I have in my toolkit as a player? I've got X, Y, Z as my tools. These are how I use the tools in the game to get to where I am now and to win the game. Like if you are a physical machine and you've got immense social ability and you're saying, yes, I'm aware, I am physically able, I am very good in challenges and I knew

I'd be good in challenges and it was a big part of my game. I acknowledged that, you know, I had to keep myself safe and fed and this and that. And it gave me the means to get to where I am. I am good socially. I do value loyalty and I'm printed that loyalty on the game. And that got me where I am today through that loyalty. You know, people are going, well, geez, these are your values.

These are your skillsets. You read them all, you use them all. Geez, that is intentional. Like I said, you don't have to be maniacal in a confessional, be like, ha ha ha, I'm so evil. I'm an evil genius, so I'm a genius for doing this. You can be doing that. I mean, you can just be naturally doing that.

It doesn't have to be like this tactic, but you are very much using the skills or the tools in your toolkit. You know, by the same token, you know, like a Camilla who's going, well, I'm not a challenge beast, although a bit of an oversight didn't credit her for her epic immunity win. I was so stoked. I made a note that I was like, oh, she lost it. She was so close.

Oh, she did it. Yay. But she's not just like, uh, this absolute machine and she didn't get herself into position early on where she held all the key relationships but she's played her part incredibly well. So her social awareness, her ability to be a social comedian to a large degree, you keep her subtitles off her face

which is incredibly hard. So people don't really read what she's really thinking or where she really feels she's at. She's presented very well in terms of presenting to be at the bottom, presenting to be outside, presenting to not be in with Kyle. She's using her skills very intentionally to get to where she is. And those are the things for me personally, and if I was a juror, I would value it. Tell me about, and I've thought about it a lot. Season eight, I used to think like, okay, if I was a juror, I would value it. It's like, tell me about, and I've thought about it a lot. You know, season eight, I used to think like, if I was on the jury and a Santony and a Chappie's got to the end,

people go, who do you vote for? And I'll go like, well, you understood themselves better. Do you use their skills better? They've got very, very different skills, you know? And I think that's what really set me down this journey about, like, I suppose what this question is asking about what you value. So, yeah, I don't want to see the same type of game every season winning it, because I think, oh,

this is the type of gameplay that should win the game and therefore, you know, every season that wins. No, I want to see people who use whatever they have as best they can. And I want to see people who are aware of their shortfalls, like an Eva, an Eva saying, you know, autism, I lack the social cues. So I found somebody that I could absolutely trust. And that person

that I put my trust in was my social radar. And it happens to be Joe. I want to move. It's actually like it's hell of impressive. You've known a weakness of yours and you've taken your greatest weakness and turned it into a massive asset that's got you here. I'm like, that gone is respect. That's gone as immense respect, you know, uh, cause you've mitigated something

that you, you see as a, a potential downfall in your game. I'm like, it's, that's pretty impressive. So, um, I think it's a, it's a really, really, really good question. And yeah, that's, that's just us. The other thing as well is if it's not intentional and that comes with a lack of self-awareness, that's a big flaw in the game that will nigh you at a final tribal council.

If he falls over himself at final tribal council, because he doesn't understand his game and still has a social capital enough to win, that shows an excess of social capital that is extremely well-earned. If it dooms him, it's incredibly earned in and of itself. If that's why he loses, it's not just that final tribal council is an important,

you know, factor in the game that he would be bad at, but it would also be on that lack of awareness, which would be very earned. And again, if Carl and Camilla have seen that and are pushing it as much as possible and are willing to go against it because they back themselves against it and how much they can exploit it. I think that's incredibly earned as well.

Like for me, Joe's game is the best here. I think if I were to go in, not to be like, you know, high on myself here, but the way I feel about Joe's game, if I were to go in there, if I were to like walk into Joe's body for a final trial with council against anyone left in this game and advocate for his game, I think I could win, right? For him. I think based on the game he has, I think that's the winning game. Even if other people do well, I think that he would be starting at the front. Can he do that?

I don't know. And that speaks to a lack of self-wetters and that's where it will do him. So at the point where it's A, doesn't doom him because he knows himself well enough, or B, doesn't doom him because that's how much people like him that it doesn't matter, those things would be very earned. And if it's the reason that he loses, that's incredibly earned as well, because that's very, very important to the game and how you see yourself and how others see you and how you understand the game and your role in it. All of that is so important.

So a moment that comes up for me that that kind of raises a concern for him at a final travel council is, is David saying, Hey, Joe, I feel like you went back in your word. And then Joe gets defensive. He's like, I didn't go back. He wouldn't hear any of the rational. I mean, capable, blah, blah, blah. And, and now it might be because the power dynamic is such that there are noises in the driver's seat. So he can have this like, uh, defensive, very, very defensive response to, to being challenged in some way.

And then David kind of goes like, no, no, no, take it back a step. And he actually does well in that moment where he's like, look, take it back a step. Just looking from our perspective, we were kind of going down this path and then things change. And he's very delicately trying to approach this thing of like, hey, just consider Joe that we were going down one way and then we went another way. And that's what it felt like to me. Joe in that moment couldn't for a second go like, Hey, listen, I don't feel

like I went back on my word, but I can understand why you feel that way. And now that I think of it, I get it. And I'm going to be a bit more aware of that. And he doesn't, he doesn't, he just can't. Now you get to a jury that's a little bit bitter, and you've got like a David there that challenges him that could potentially derail him and go like, no, no, I'm not that. I won't hear any of it. And all of a sudden his focus shifts from

all the positive in his game to this defensive mindset. And he holds his ground and maybe the jury gives him some opportunities to acknowledge things like, hey, well, you flipped on David when actually David had your best interest of art. You flipped flipped on Shaheen when Shaheen had your best interest in the heart. So that loyalty thing doesn't quite add up because you got rid of the players that were actually more loyal to you than the other players. And if Kyle and Camilla can plant that seed enough that the jury then go for them on those points, how he responds

to that, if he responds to it in a similar way to what he responded to David, he's going to be losing votes very quickly, I think, because of that awareness. Will that be the case? I don't necessarily think so. I think he's astute enough to, that's not gonna be his response.

But that was just a moment that raised a little bit of a red flag for a final tribal council and a defensive minister. I still think he's going to win the episode for community. Yes. But yeah, it was just something I thought I'd mention that raises a bit of that final tribal council winning it there or losing it there. I completely agree with you. I think that there's again, a huge credit to the edit that I think we have an interesting final episode coming up where I really think at least all three of them have a strong chance of winning. And I would understand how least all three of them have a strong chance

of winning. And I would understand how it all happened. They've given us enough of Carl and Camilla for sure. They've given us enough of how Joe could win even with a really dominant game and those kind of like red flags that I definitely think that that one that you pointed out is a really hard one too, because he's going to have to come in and be like, yeah, as a godfather of the season, maybe not exactly like that, but like I had with competing interests and unfortunately, decisions had to be made on that. He can't seem played.

It needs to be like, I got to where I wanted to be, which is here, and had to make decisions when my allies weren't getting along with each other, which is kind of the truism of what has happened here. It's about knowing it. It's about knowing yourself before you go in because even Mike Turner heard it from the jury and was recognizing it in the moment, but it was too late. Like he did accept it, but it was too late into it. And that is what taught him this like extra knowledge of himself. And he was to his credit, very open to receiving that. But it was too late.

He needs to go into the final tribal council, knowing himself and knowing how to speak to it and knowing how to defend against it on the extremely dominant game. Again, I think his game should win. I think the best game of the five left, but he has to be able to defend it and not be hypocritical because as a juror, for me, I would vote for Joe's game right now. But if he's going to be hypocritical, that would turn me right off. And then I would not vote for him. So you're saying knowing himself and it's also knowing your jury, right? That's a big thing. Knowing your jury, knowing what they, when they're asking the question, what is it they're really asking? What do they really want to hear

from you? So it's not just knowing yourself, it's knowing them. And I'm just thinking back to Nicole Capper's game now. Nicole Capper, because again, I see a bit of likeness in terms of a stronghold of an alliance and people wanting to take an internal shot, but not quite having the moment and missing their moments. And so I see some parallels here. Nicole would have been a far, she got her hands far dirtier, but just on the moral integrity, loyal kind of point, she stuck to that and she wasn't able to let that narrative go and own that she did the dirty work. And I think that's where she might have missed opportunity to actually win the game from Rob. I mean, a 6-4 vote against what people regard as one of the most dominant winners is pretty freaking impressive. She held most of the social capital. She did the dirty

work. She made most of those moves. She would have been a phenomenal winner for the season, right? The reason I bring that up is that she wasn't able to waver on her own perception of herself, what she was trying to put out there. And the jury had a perception and it invalidated their perception. And that's where they kind of, that's probably where she lost some of those votes

or didn't earn more votes. Joe might be in the same position where he's gonna be aware of how the jurors see him. And particularly where he's led to the downfall of some of his allies' games, how your response to that's going to determine whether he picks up those votes or loses them, or retains those votes or loses them. Because I think, like you say, it's absolutely his to lose. He has played, he's had an unconventional new era, a stranglehold on a new era that's very game heavy. So it's been quite linear in terms of seeing an alliance and a route forward. And it's been linear from that perspective

in the season, but it's been refreshing in a sense of we haven't seen gameplay like this dominate a game for a very long time. Yeah. I mean, you start off the podcast comparing him to Rob Bentley. And I think that beyond the Nicole of it all, it's more like the Rob thing, because I think the Joe will get tripped up by some of the jury. I think that there's enough red flags there of how he will answer some of it. And I think it will lose like a jury vote like a David. However, I don't know that it will lose enough. I think the question of the finale will be, is there enough there that even with those

flaws he still wins? Is the story and the game self-evident enough, kind of like it was for Rob where it was, it spoke for itself, even beyond any of the like moralizing, that the game was just so self-evident? And is Joe's game big enough and impressive enough and enough of a story and well-liked enough that he can trip up and still win? Is that disparity great enough or will he trip up enough to lose to another strong competitor next to him like a Kyle or a Camilla when the jury will be trying to trip him up where they will be adding to that and know how to do it well? I think that's the question. I think that the story is there for him, but I could see how he could get tripped

up and that is where the game is to be won for like a Kyle or a Camilla who know to exploit that because their awareness is very good, like for every decision they've made, it's been very knowing. Like even if we criticize Kyle, he's having all the debates that we are having for him in those moments. You know, he's not like, like with Shaheen, it's like, I think I could have beaten Joe. And he feels really solid about that. I don't like, I think that's too much. For Kyle, it's like, maybe if we exploit him and undermine him, I know I need to undermine him. There's a lot of knowing in that. It's not so confident.

I think he probably gives himself similar percentages as we do. And I do credit that. So the awareness and the knowledge is there for Camilla and Kyle. They need to exploit, I think, a stronger, bigger game from Joe with the skills that they have on that. But I also wanted to just say as well, just on the old school thing and like the sense of loyalty, because I thought there was a debate online

while I was going around this like old school debate of like, well, I think Dalton Ross put out a tweet and some people were angry at it. He did say specifically in the voting and now that people are talking about edit and stuff, like he meant in the voting, this is like an old school season. So, and people were mad about that because they were like,

well, no, because people were actually flipping kind of early on in old school survivor. When people made moves in Old School Survivor, it was very innovative, whereas here they should know to make moves. The storytelling was better. Although I do think that the edit has been pretty good here. I think there's been, we can talk about it, but like fun moments has been like good story elements. Again, I think it's pretty close on who can win, maybe even closer than it should be going into finale. So I just think that the edit's been pretty good. But I think that what is interesting and what is old school in a way that you don't have to be angry about it, but like that sense of loyalty as a theme and a culture is very old

school to me. It doesn't necessarily mean that a pagonging is old school. And this has been like a quasi-pagonging. It's more to me that when you have that culture of loyalty, it can lead to pagongings, but it's more the fact that people will talk about needing moral outs. Kyle will talk about needing a moral out with with Shaheen and not even just to have something to take to Joe because he's still gonna lie to Joe. It's more the moral out for himself. That's very, very rare in the new era. And they're still like Genevieve

crying about, you know, hurting allies like that's still something that exists for individuals in the new era. But here it's cultural, it's for the whole group, and it's internal. And I don't know how internal that moral out has been in the New Era. And I do think that is quite novel and quite compelling in the New Era. And I do think that that is quite old school. It doesn't mean that the voting structure of a boring voting structure is what we mean by old school, but I think it does, it can tend to that.

And I do think that that is what that has been because most new era cast would vote out Joe. They, they, you know, and they wouldn't be necessarily crying as much about it. And certainly not like, you know, many of them. Um, and certainly not in a way that it's kind of decided the structure of the game, I think. And it's quite interesting. I mean, you raised that point and David actually had a, uh, tribal council kind of raises it. He's like I mean, you raise that point and David actually had a tribal council kind of raises that he's like, Oh, you know, we always get used to the meat shields and blah, blah, blah. Let's change that. So, so like you say, historically, Joe would have been taken out a little bit earlier and even, even David identifies that as, as like, well,

we can change that. And it has absolutely changed. And again, like you said, it comes down to the culture that the player sets. And that's, the viewers might not always be excited by the precedent, but there's another culture that gets set as well. So there's the in-game culture and then there's the Jerry culture, right? And I'm just trying to piece together

what is the Jerry culture? Because at the moment, I mean, particularly like Dave's face, very bitter, right? You seem quite good. But Cedric's still got quite a friendly demeanor on his face. He's got the same demeanor as Cedric. And I think he's going to award it to the player he thinks has played the best game.

No emotionality to it, right? Chrissy, I think, will award it to somebody who she feels was the most disruptive to the status quo, you know. I get that sense from her. David and Mary, I don't know, I think Mary would award it to whoever she feels just played the best game. Skillful David, obviously very, very emotional. Did we unpack what the standing at the tribal council is? Well, I wanted to talk about that. Because firstly, I think like in terms of like taking out Joe, what I don't mean like necessarily how David's needed is like,

they would take up Joe, the big strong guy. I mean, Joe is like the leading threat. And that in the new era has been a range of, you know, that's been Shan, that's been Omar, that's been Jesse, that's, you know, et cetera. And I think that that person usually goes in the new era, you know, because demographically, it's quite diverse. The leading threat generally also comes with somebody who's made like this very public, very big move, you know, it's generally tied to something of like, oh, they're sociable, they're likeable this, and they've got this on their resume.

Has Joe got a singular, which he doesn't, and that's again, credits to his game, and how much win equity he's messed it up without actually having this big move. And it's quite interesting that we haven't heard like too much about, oh, build a resume, build a resume, build a resume. Yeah, because Joe is the move, you know,

like the move would have been like Carl taking out Joe at the final seven, like Joe's big move is the fact that no one's made a move on him, which I think is incredibly impressive. So I do think that the, the, like, it's taking out the person who will, who is in the pound seat to win, which is Joe in this case, which has been a variety of people over the new era.

And again, most people will do it. And it feels like that is not going to happen for Joe here. And that's really unique. What was the question you asked before? Oh, David's standing up. I do think it's important as well not to fall into like the most vocal juror from the jury bench. Like obviously David's making that face and he's got like a wide range of singlet shirts and he's standing up and it's very easy to be like by Kyle, like, oh, well the jury won't reward what I want to do because David won't reward it. He's still just one jury vote. Like he can stand up all he wants,

but it's still the same amount of jury votes as everyone else. And I think that I don't want Carl to get into like, well, Joe won't win because David's mad. Like, yeah, David alone is mad, but he's still just one vote. He could be the one vote that Joe doesn't get. And that's not going to necessarily sway the whole jury, especially because like, is this jury even listening to David? I feel like they're like, shut up, David. Um, so I don't even know that he's a journalist. I don't even think Mary and David vote the same way. I think, I think Mary would be like, if I could have a happy vote for Joe, because you know, yeah, I was trying to muster votes against the guy and the opportunities to take shots and people just were too scared. So it's

like, not even mad that Joe got rid of me. And they told me ages ago that I was at the bottom and not even mad about all these things. And he laid all these things on the plate and we still couldn't do anything about it. So it's him. Whereas like David's like, you loyal, you know, loyal, bad, bad, bad, you know, like, no shame. I'm oversimplifying it. Dave, Dave is not like that. So he is representing a style of culture of the season and of the jury that I think may be overrepresented. Overrepresented, listen to me, I haven't podcasted for a few weeks, compared to how the other jurors feel.

And I don't want Kyle to be falling into that trap. Maybe he will. Samsung Vision AI televisions transform screens into intelligent solutions, from the shows that make us laugh to those that make us cry. Now, your TV knows you more than ever, whether it's reviving old memories with AI upscaling, or seamless hands-free control with universal gestures.

This isn't just television, it's a whole new vision because it isn't just about what's on, it's about who's watching. Learn more about Samsung Vision AI televisions at samsung.com. A couple of things here. Firstly, in terms of how the jury looks, let's get to that first. We can talk about some of these other moments like David standing up. We haven't even got to the final chizzy. We're doing well though. I feel like, okay, so Joe needs to win and he can lose it for himself. Then I think Kyle has the most jury pool just on the fact that he's seen probably really

dominant just like in the standings. I think Camilla has less than Kyle, but I do wonder if Camilla has like the Sandra aspect that I think I saw spoken about a little bit on Twitter, where she can be like, I was telling you to flip and it wasn't my fault. And to her credit, it was not her fault. If she's sitting there with Joe, it's not her fault that Joe is there. Like it wasn't Sandra's fault that Russell was there. I do think that the concern is that Joe is the side by side comparison is

the side by side comparison as well. Who's going to play? Well, Joe had the pool. You didn't, you know, so like if I'm comparing, if you're comparing you to me, sure, you told me and I didn't do it. That's on us. But if I'm comparing you to Joe, well, Joe had the social pool. You didn't. And therefore, you know, so it's still not the strongest of strong arguments, but she does have, she does have a case.

I do think that what it is, is if Joe happens to go, I do think there's a small chance, a very, very tiny chance where like, say it's the final four of like Kyle, Camilla, Joe and Eva, and like Kyle wins immunity and takes Camilla. I think that Joe might just not make a fire against Eva. Like I think there's a tiny chance that he like gives up his game for Eva. And then like Carl or Camilla win based on that tiny shot. Secondly, can you imagine he said he'd give up his game for Eva.

So I don't know that he's going to like sit there making a fire against Eva. But I think that's a small, small time. Just wanted to put it out there. No, I think that's the issue is for Camilla is that if they take out Joe, then her argument of I was trying to take out Joe loses weight. Camilla is that if they take out Joe, then her argument of I was trying to take out Joe loses weight. And then it becomes like who took out Joe, like who beat Joe at fire, the fireman, that would become very important.

If she's sitting there with Joe, then it does become like, I told you to take him out. They will still want to vote for Joe, I think, because Joe's likable and Russell wasn't. However, if Joe starts screwing up and people don't want to vote for him because he's becoming a huge hypocrite, I do think that her argument of that, of like, it's not my fault that Joe is here, is an alternative to that if Joe starts screwing up. So I just want to say that for Camilla because Camilla especially has like, it wasn't her fault, it was Kyle's fault, it was Shaheen's fault, it was Mitch's fault, but it wasn't Camilla's fault. It was Eva's fault, but it wasn't Camilla's and I think that she can speak to that if Joe becomes a less salient option for the jury. Yeah, I mean, that's kind

of what I have on the jury. Do we want to talk about some of these? Do you have any more on that? Because I have like, we have a couple of fun moments like David standing up, stars wrapped, got fun betrayal, by the way, got fun betrayal in that challenge. Best moment of the season. Got fun betrayal. That was incredible Best moment of the season. Got fun betrayal. That was incredible. That was amazing. Because what? That's going to probably be the lure of the season.

And he said it was his whole chest. Now, I never have not eaten for weeks. I don't want to be like, he really said it was got fun. Well, got fun butrally, really. Butrally. So I just want to just, you talk about, ah, haven't eaten for weeks, blah, blah, blah. It's such a good point.

And, and, and again, from an audience perspective, I'd love to remind Kyle, the night in, in tribal, the train of thought, he's like, he's like speaking, speaking, and you guys, and you can see the fog setting, he's like, Jeff, what was the question? And you're like, I'm like so freaking relatable. That happens way more than edits ever show. And it're like, I'm like so freaking relatable. That happens way more than in its ever show. And it happens to everyone. If you ask any survivor castaway who's probably spent more than five or six days hiring maybe the Aussie survivors who get rice and beans. For 40?

For the rest of Asia. Yeah, you know, come on. No, no, no, no, no. But that's why I said five or six days and then that because they like 15, 16 onwards for them. But like the Americans, they're getting absolutely nothing. So their rates of deprivation, I'll bring this up every time. Like the Gyners respect, like I know it's a shorter format game and people aren't like enamored by the whole not 39 days thing anymore. But the fact that they get absolutely nothing is unreal.

And I empathize deeply. But that brain fog is so, so real. And now you do go into a final trouble council betrayal. And he was confident man. And I, I, I, I admire the confidence, but you don't good for him for having a packet and it was tight. Only you Dino could be so positive about Got Fun Betrayal because to be fair, can I just say I had the way I experienced it because I was behind,

I had seen Got Fun Betrayal on Twitter, but I assumed that it was just like the back was spelled wrong and it was just funny that there's no fun betrayal, but the back was spelled wrong. I didn't realize he intentionally was trying to, oh, poor Joe. Got Fun Betrayal is an all time. All time. It's like, I'm sure you saw that Instagram video going around that's done quite well with the players trying to write players names down. Yeah, I've seen that.

It's quite funny and I was just like, well that was a, you know, the Got Fun Betrayal was just a precursor for how they're all going to put your Shaheen's name. Yeah, he did Shaheen, which is honestly better than Got Fun Betrayal. Yeah, he did. Which is honestly better than got from. Yeah. Well, marginally anyway. No, there are there are so many layers to got from betrayal because firstly, got from betrayal is not a sentence. It doesn't make any sense. To be fair, to be fair to him, maybe he thought it was meta and he was like, well, fun and betrayal being spelt a little bit different.

He's a fun way. And now all of a sudden I've got fun betrayal here. I've got a way to spell betrayal. Got fun betrayal is not a sentence. That's not how you spell betrayal. And that's not a stat. And even if got fun betrayal was a sentence and that was the correct spelling of betrayal, that would never be the solution to the question. It's wrong on three levels. I know I'm weak slate, but it's so it's just like, it's an insane moment in the question. It's wrong on three levels. I know I'm weak slate, but it's just like, it's an insane moment in the show. Anyway, I think that's like an instant way to betray the English language, honestly.

Definitely got to find the challenge. I think that the way that that has affected the lexicon of survivor, like I can already tell that's like a help me poor moment that we'll always in every like now in the next time there's a blindside like I feel like was the final six of Shaheen was that got fun betrayal? No, but when there's got fun betrayal we're going to be like every time there's a blind side from now on it's going to be got fun betrayal. It was wonderful. Anyway, one can hope. Yeah, you were saying before that. Even so, it brings up a bit of this father brain fog and whatnot.

And that's going to have a huge, huge part to play in final trouble counseling. And I don't want people to discount that. Like that, when we talk about winning and losing final trouble counselors, that brain fog is real. Final trouble counselor is double the length, sometimes triple the length of any ordinary tribal counselor, which is already emotionally, psychologically draining beyond. It's so tough to say switched on. And now when you're just one of two people, like when you're in a group and tribal councils are your tribe of eight, you can have these moments, you can kind of switch off and a question gets directed at somebody else,

you're going to be listening, you're going to be in tune. Okay, yes, you're going to be like as focused as possible, but when you're one of two or one of three people and everything's being fired at you with emotional intensity and the people on the other side have had time to debrief and come to terms with the game, get closure or not have closure or stew and they've eaten, they've partied and they might be nursing a hangover to be quite honest, in which case a lot of juries are nursing hangovers. That's the truth, right?

And you're here and you're on absolute fumes and all of that's being directed at you for like three hours. It is so easy to slip into the brain fog. That adrenaline that you go into that final trouble can only carry you so far, that brain fog sets in. So yeah, I mean, if Kyle's struggling with a brain fog in an ordinary travel and Joe's losing his grip on the English language, it will be interesting to see

how that's handled in a final travel as well. It certainly has an impact. It's not that simple. Like we can reason from the comfort of a couch while smashing a tub of popcorn and all things that they're wishing they had. In the game, it's so much harder to see. And I just want to acknowledge that again. You know, if I were David, you know what I would stand up there and say that to say to Joe

immediately. I'd literally stand up like he's been and I'd be like, Joe got fun betrayal. He wasn't there for that. He wouldn't have seen that. He wouldn't have known. Hopefully they tell him. Bit of speculation. Yeah. And I don't know seen that. He wouldn't have known. Hopefully they tell him. Hopefully they tell him what happened. Bit of speculation here. I don't know if I'm jumping to go in here, right? So if we look at Next Time on Survivor, and you've seen the promo that's come out for the finale episode. I think I have. I try to watch everything.

I watched eight exited to views in the last day and a half. So I'm trying my best. So Next Time on Survivor brings up a moment that I think is pertinent. And it was definitely a thought of mine that I was having during this episode, which was Kyle and Camilla cannot sit together at the end if one of them is to win. And you see Camilla going,

Kyle, we can't sit together at the end. Kyle can. Okay, cool. To an extent, no. Kyle can. He can, he can, but I think his win equity reduces. So if it's a Joe, Kyle, Camilla. I would rather sit with Camilla than Joe, if I were Kyle.

Yes, but if it's Kyle, Joe, Camilla, then if it's Kyle, Joe, Mitch, Kyle, Joe, Eva, I think win equity is higher in a Kyle, Joe, Eva than a Kyle, Joe, Eva, I think Kyle, when equity is higher in a Kyle, Joe, Eva than a Kyle, Joe, Camilla. Yes. But there is two biggest threats to win. To be fair, he should sit with none of them. Like then he'll win the game. He sits with Eva and Mitch. He's won the game.

You know, like I think that he should not sit with Joe. And then secondly, should not sit with Camilla. But he but Camilla, I think, would lose to Kyle. I think that she would look as she would look like to be a second to Kyle, especially because people in the X interviews are like, I knew that they were working together. And it's like, why is the relationship so secret? Like, she takes her for a reward. Like, there's enough that they, anyway, I don't know Thomas at the beginning of the game, how secret has this relationship been? So I don't even know how much, I think that might be a little played up in the edit, because it's

like they have a secret relationship that again has purely worked defensively to this point. And that was maybe what it intended to do, but it's not powerful enough to me to be the smoking gun. So I just think Kyle has more than Camilla generally. Yes. And the editors show that right toward the end. Yeah. And earlier you were saying that it's shown enough for either of the three of them to win. But I think if Kamila wins, then the editor has done Kamila dirty because I think I think she's a phenomenal player and it's probably understated how well she's played from the position she's in or how well she's played the the role that she's played. Right.

We have got a lot of content though of her. Yeah. Doing well. Yeah. I mean, she's got more positive content than Erika did in Erika's winning season. So it's like. Yeah, exactly. I mean, what I was going to say about the promo video. Edit this out.

And it does have what seems to be a spoiler on who wins the immunity at final five. Oh my god, don't say, don't say. No mention, okay cool. So it does impact how I think about the final five. Unfortunately, you can't unsee what survival and CBS puts out there, right? Oh my god, don't say. Okay, haven't said anything. That's crazy.

Oh my god, I'm so glad I didn't see that. Was that in the next time on or was it in a separate?. Was that in the next time on, or was it in a separate? It wasn't in the next time on, it was on the promo. But to be fair, it could also be a previous, a confessional of a previous immunity winner. So it might not be- Okay, well that already narrows it down.

Let's just forget this ever happened. Right. Well, okay. To be fair, four of the five have one immunity. So we could have taken it from any point. So, we'll see. What are roots to the end and combinations, right, for final three here? Yeah. Okay, let's talk about this. Let's start it this way. In what way forward does Joe not make final travel council? And for me, it's the only way is that he sells through to four because they all want to vote out Mitch. So Eva, Eva Joe wins final five immunity and then Camilla and then Camilla, and Mitch vote out Joe because Eva is going to be a Mitch. Because Eva plays the idol for herself. Yeah. And they've got it. Otherwise they're all

looking to vote out Mitch. So. And they can sell the dream of the four not needing to play it on anyone and Eva just plays it out of just needing just because she's going to play it on herself. Right. So that would be huge. And that takes an Eva, Carl, Camilla, Mitch, Final Four. That would make the game very interesting. Holy shit. Because now what do you do? What do you do as a. And then I think whoever of Carl or Camilla when get through to the final three without each other, or if it's calling together, Carl wins or Colin Camilla win. I think that they should be looking to do that anyway. I mean, Mitch, if Joe doesn't win immunity, Mitch could be voting for Joe. And if they can do that, then I think that they should be doing that. If Kyle wins immunity, then I think that the three

of them should be doing that. I just don't think that they will because they haven't been, you know, like they, that's not how they're talking. They're talking like they want to go to four with Joe. If they're still going to take vote out Joe now, like this is the thing, if they have used, if they have taken out Shaheen now to turn on Joe next, then much like what I thought the David move was, then that is the move, you know, like then now we've weakened him to take a shot. I just think that it's likely he wins immunity. They have an idol. If Eva wins immunity, she said she'd play it on Joe. But yeah, that would be like, okay, finally,

like the Carl Orquemilla thing has worked. And that's like been like the kicker. So there is a possibility there to take him out of five that I haven't even really been considering. But if there's something there, I think it's very strong. And then I think Carl Orqu Camilla win, largely Kyle. In the likely scenario, Joe cruises through to four with... In the likely scenario, it's Mitch, Mitch, Mitch, Mitch, Mitch, right?

Near Kyle, you win immunity. Do you put Joe to fire against Camilla? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. It's not an enviable position to be in to make that decision because it, you know, put Eva, Joe against each other. There's like this story element. Would Joe, I mean, you talk about Joe laying his game down for Eva. Does Joe then just step down and go like, hey, you win the fight.

I don't know. I don't see that happening. Yes, probably not. I think as well, you also can't put yourself in fire against Joe as much as that's like such a big play to take out because Joe's so likely to win fire as a fireman who we know have like no, no, but he puts fires out. He doesn't start fires. Why? We've always had this discussion many times. Firefighters seem to be great at fire making. So there's something they must have to teach you how to make a fire to put it out. They're going to keep themselves in the jobs, you know, on a quiet day out. Oh, geez, I might face unemployment challenge. Just commit to a bit of arson here. We're not accusing Joe of starting fires that he can put out,

but he wouldn't be paying. They even talk about it on the show. They're like, Joe is a firefighter. We can't go against him in the fire making. So they seem to know it as well. Is anybody, anybody left? They don't have glasses. So we don't have the foreshadowing of fire making in the glasses. No, we don't.

Yeah. Okay. It's not a nerdy enough season for that. And that's how you know, because we haven't had the fire in the glasses. So yeah, I mean, I think Joe's best path is against anyone, but he has to own it. It's his game to win or lose. I think Kyle and Camilla, it would be great if they could be there with Eva and Mitch. If they're there against each other, it'll be a fight that tends to Kyle.

If they're there with Joe, they're relying on Joe dooming himself. And that's what they have seemed to want to exploit. Mitch, it's going to have to be, as you said, in the Camilla. For Eva, I think it's going to be in that three, Camilla, Eva, Mitch, and then Mitch just has to have the story and Eva just also has to have the story. Mitch wins back to back communities. He's goes, I mean, he's definitely capable of it. Like Mitch has shown some real fricking impressive stuff in a lot of the challenges.

He wins back to back community. So let's say he wins immunity, they take out Joe. Mitch wins immunity again. Does he just send Kyle and Eva to fire then? Take Milla. What is Mitch's best chance of increasing some sort of win equity for him? Mitch being in the worst spot to win should win immunity and take out Joe and then win immunity and put himself into fire against Kyle.

You know, like, I think when you're in the bottom like this, we talk about this like for Owen and we're talking about this final three without Joe and with Kyle, kind of like, you know, I kind of, you know, the, the Cassidy Gabler Owen final three but it's not as much, I think like that's kind of unfair to Camilla, but if that's going to be the final three there and Mitch needs to win it, yeah, win two challenges

and fire like, sure. But then again, like he's a different, completely different human being. But like, yeah, a hundred percent. I do think. And like if what, what is Eva's, I don't know what Eva's is because I think that turning on Joe would be so like to really make a move against Joe would be so inconsistent. But then sitting with Joe is, is not good. And then also being like Joe passively losing without her and her being passive in that

also looks terrible. So I don't know where Eva is. That's her best chance. Losing her passively is her best chance. And then Joe advocates for her. And then hopefully like Shaheen just likes her enough and David likes her enough and isn't mad about it. And Mary has a relationship with her possibly. But then like Star is not going to be happy with her after giving her the idol and her just voting Star out. I don't know that she has the relationships. I think for Mitch as well, am I being too harsh on Mitch? Yeah.

In the Star episode that that comment didn't come out even from Star's side where it's like, she's, you know, yeah, they're coming for me and I gave her an idol or there's not even this like, oh, don't worry, Star, we're going for Mary, to try and placate Star into not playing a shot in the dark. I'm like, listen, dude, you gave me a freaking Eidl, I can't do this to you. But at the same time, it's like, you won't play that because now you're going to burn them, put them on the, remind them that you gave them an Eidl and then

put them in the jury anyway. So, but I was surprised that like, there wasn't more of a meal made about like, geez, you know, Star gave even idol and I don't start not nurturing that relationship. Anyway, well, that might be more on, on Eva, just not, you know, letting her get it. And I bet that it comes up, I bet it comes up at a final tribal council. I will say as well for Mitch at the final nine, Eva says Mitch has the most jury chances for the people on the bottom. So maybe I am being fooled by an edit

when Mitch has more than I'm giving him credit for, in which case don't put yourself into fire, but certainly start winning some challenges, certainly take out a Joe, and maybe he would win in a Camilla Eva final three. If he does that, if he puts himself into fire, let's say he wins back-to-back immunities and he puts himself into fire, I think he actually, because then he shows the social awareness of going like, well, I knew where the threats were. One, the guy that was unbeatable, I beat. And then we took him out at the right time.

I hung on, I was like the name on everybody's lips, but I managed to wheeze my way through until the time came when we could take the shot, which none of you guys could get right. And I managed to get right. And at four, I had the social awareness enough to know standings in the game and know that Kyle's the biggest winning threat.

So you know, I might not have made all these big moves, but I played with an absolute awareness and intent and boom, you know, my odds were low, but this is my best shot and I went this, you know, like he shows that kind of awareness. I think he can definitely win a few votes over Eva and Camilla. Is that going to happen? I don't necessarily think so. We've really fan fictioned that. He might not need to put himself on fire.

Maybe it's just you take out Joe and then you just make sure Carl, whoever you put into fire with Carl, make sure that Carl loses. We don't know how people are at fire. I just might not be giving him enough jury credit. I think Kamila and Eva is his shot. That for the three of them is probably all of their best shot. And then there's also the very interesting aspect of, yeah, where like, does Joe loses for himself and then who's the beneficiary of that, I think between Carl and Camilla, but we never get to chilly for this final episode 12. So should we do that and then wrap this up? Because much like in Final Tribal Council, where the brain fog is setting in, I think that might be us at a point. Take it away, Jacob Segerweinstein. Am I making less of this sense? No, I am, I think. Anyway, for the fourth time, Jacob Segerweinstein and MC Khala, take it away. One, two, three.

All right. We've talked a lot about the finale, but to go back to this episode, the actual episode that everyone just watched, I really went back and forth. I actually, I'm still going back and forth. Give me your points first, and my points, the integrity doesn't need to be there because I've not seen the next episode.

Tell me your point, and they're gonna define my points, I think. So I actually didn't award immediately after the episode because again, we hadn't seen the upcoming episode and I'm open to the discussion. And then, yeah, I thought, you know, you'd have some really, really valid points. I'm going to hang on there and say that. But I did not.

Say that again. I didn't have the, I didn't have valid points. So just go with what you had. You just disagree with me. Just so painless. So what you did get me to do was toss up between the, the Calcammilla three and two point scenario in my mind. For me, they absolutely got to win over the Joe camp for sure. They strengthened their position. Whereas Joe's was slightly weakened. They forced him into mistake. And even though you think it's

inconsequential to the over thing, I think it's impactful enough, right? It opens opportunities. And when you said that Camilla comes out of this winning more than Kyle, I do agree somewhat, but Kyle sets this in motion. Kyle's the one that holds the information. He's the one to say like, make the read that this is a viable move on Shaheen and he comes up with the strategy on how to do it and then Camilla plays a part. So yes, Camilla is a big winner from this, but Kyle's the one that drives this.

So for me, it's a, usually we go in reverse order, right? But for me, Kyle's a three, Camilla's a two. And then I can't award, I can't... So for me, the one is a question mark. Me, the one is a very big question mark. Yeah, so Joe Shaheen, who went, Eva or Mitch. Or Mitch.

And who's got immunity at the stage? Sorry, everything's become a blur. Was it Joe again? Joe's got immunity again, right? Usually Joe. Yeah. Usually Joe, we're in doubt it's Joe. I'm in a struggle to give it to Mitch.

So I'm gonna have to give the one pointer to Joe because of his immunity when at the very least insulating himself and ensuring that they basically go into final five with an advantage in their pocket and really, really good win equity. So although he's made a mistake, I just can't justify anybody else getting a point over him at this stage. Yes. I was back and forth between Camilla and Joe on the three. I'll give one to Kyle. I'll say that now because I do think again, like he was kind of the most he could do,

but the game was already decided in a way that I'm not, I wouldn't have chosen at final seven. So I can only give it the one. Camilla gets through to the final four. Joe is ultimately the winner that he is in the pound position to when he's gotten himself there, assuming they don't turn on him at five, which they're not even talking about doing even such a good spot. He gets the five with Eva and an idol without Shaheen to me.

It's fine. Like it's, it's, it's not, it's, it's again, suboptimal. And that's still amazing. So I had to choose and I was really back and forth and I was coming in here giving Camilla three, but I think I'm going to give Joe three. I'm giving Joe three. And that puts, because I just think with you giving Kyle three, I don't know. I mean, that gives all of them four for that episode. And that maybe is fair. Like that actually feels right.

Or, yeah. Okay. Camilla's playing a great game. She deserves a good pointer. or yeah. Okay. Camilla is playing a great game. She deserves a good point. I'll give Camilla. I'll give Camilla. Yeah, I'll give. Okay.

Now feed. Don't be Shaheen and just feed Joe unnecessarily and give him more. He doesn't need that. That's the point. The fact that Shaheen will take him like all of that is so impressive. This is like you in the flower story again. You just can't pick. You and Kyle both. You just can't emotionally do that to Joe. You just can't detach.

No, I think, okay. So that's okay. And that puts us at Kyle's on 27. I don't know. No, no, no. Don't look at the tally. Look at the episode. I am looking at the tally because I'm looking at like, I'm looking at trying to rig it. No, okay. It's fine. I don't know.

I don't know. Integrity of the truth. No, I think, okay, I'm going, I'm giving the three to Joe. He won for me. This is, yeah, I think I have to do it. And I put them on 26 and then Kyle's on 27 and the dealer is on, I don't even know, 14. Yeah. And then you're falling into the same trap. You're falling into the same Joe trap as everybody else this season.

That's how fucking good he is. Yes, exactly. That's why he gets three points for me because I spent the whole time being like, who cares that you took out Shaheen? You can't take out Joe. His name isn't Shaheen or David, that is Joe. Like you're not taking, okay, so I feel good because this is the energy I've had

and this is the right energy. So, three points every episode until he wins, right? So until he loses, he's getting three points. I don't know, I think it's right. And that's it. Okay, last question. What did you think of David standing up? Two hours and 40 minutes into this podcast.

I'm not sure. Chris and I looked at each other. We're like, what is he doing? What is he doing? Is he trying to send a message to the players? What message is he sending? Was he standing up out of respect for Mary? Was he just craving attention? Yeah. I don't know. No. Was he just craving attention? I don't know. I actually... I think it was respect for Mary. I don't want to be too harsh on him because I think he thought

it was the kind respectful thing to Mary. It was about her, but in a very classic David way, it was like, no, no, you're making me about you. No, no, no, it's so self-important and ridiculous. It's taken away from this whole moment. He wanted it to be serious and for Mary, but instead it was ridiculous and for him. And, but instead it was like ridiculous. And for him, like it was so unintended,

but like not intentionally, but it was, it did kind of sum up that character in a way that was kind of amazing. But okay, I think we did it. I think we recapped four weeks of the show. Shaheen is, is, is, is flowers as well. Would be the, the saying. So like, Star, Star, I was expecting, you know,

Star's boot, Star was far more like, turn it back, no goodbyes, which surprised me because Star's got this like lighthearted bubbly face and empty. And you see Shaheen absolutely blindsided, devastated, this game means a lot to him. And he does the gameplay thing, respects the game. If you guys don't each give me a hug, I'm going to be really, really mad. You know, the guy's just been voted out. Big ups to him. And, and I must say that going into this, I was super biased as a Shaheen fan because of his attachment and to, to Rachel as the 46th alternate.

And I had big hopes for him and yeah, love him as a player and well, then to him for taking it like a player and yeah, it's a pleasure watching him. So thanks to him for playing a great game and being a part of a good season and just yeah, having such a good respect for the game and the feather players. I think he's going to make an exceptional juror. I think he's going to make an exceptional juror. See, the jury are going to not, are going to respect gameplay, Carl. It's fine. They're going to respect Joe's gameplay if you can speak to it. I think we've, we've gotten to where we're well set up for the finale. We had a lot to do.

We had to look back at four episodes and set up for a finale, which is a big podcast. Dinos, thank you so much for being here. We did a lot. There was a cat, there was a dog, there was two cats. There was, there was, we had to change location, but we got there. It's been a marathon podcast, but we did it. As it is, as it usually is. So wait, I haven't said sorry enough,

so I'm really sorry about that. Sorry for those who had to listen to me. Yeah, thank you to those who are here. Two hours and 40 minutes into this podcast, listening to the last month of our thoughts that we have saved up for you. Hope you enjoyed all of that. Do you know where can people find you?

Um, Instagram at that guy, Dino. I'm not on the Twitter streets at the moment or X streets. Uh, so yeah, just Instagram at that guy, Dino. I love, love, um, hearing from people, reach out, up the message. It's, it's always great connecting. So yeah, you won't see much on there aside from maybe I was kind of having videos, not the most interesting. I mean, generally my feed is pretty like pretty bland,

but yeah, if you ever want to reach out and chat, I'm always open to it. Well, you can find me at Shannon Gates everywhere. I have deep dives at a deep dive with Laura. I have a deep dive with Zara coming up next week. People have been asking about the Zara deep dive. So that is happening as well. Next week I'll be with Jacques talking about the finale, seeing which of these interesting pathways plays out. And that's all I have. You know. Your miles deep dive? Because Miles, Miles made a point of going, hey, I'll break your record. I'm like, bro, I'm proud of that. I spoke way too much. That was so funny because I messaged, well, firstly, Miles messaged Dino before I did about breaking the deep dive record, which was crazy because I messaged Dino like five

minutes after Miles left my house. So I mean, you'd already been told. I messaged Dino and Marianne and your, cause that was one and two, now you're two and three. And that your reactions were so like, you were like, that's so cool Maryam was like I hate you. I'm never visiting you again. So I feel like that was really summed up So this is actually a pretty short podcast for me at the moment because all of those details have been three hours plus So yeah, I mean after six hours six hours for the two of us. I think maybe it's just like five

And it's it's maria was 5 20 yours was 555 and Miles was like six on six-ish. Yeah, there we go. I have to say, I know I'm dragging this out, but smile for global. So I have to mention. So Miles also mentioned to Paulie. Paulie's been in Cape Town. He's currently in, what's one, I know he's in Zambia. Then he gets back to Cape Town and he started to reach out. So I got to have a really cool, cool lunch

with Paulie. And now when Paulie gets back into Cape Town, Tuesday night, we're going to be hanging out with him at a really cool Mexican place called Mamacita's. We're having like a mini Cape Town and Lumbna reunion. You know, we're going to have producer, you know, LaRue's going to be there. We're going to have some of our crew there and a whole bunch of Lumbna. So it's going to be a proper survival global moment, you know, having having Paulie there who hasn't watched any survivor essay, but is unapologetically himself about it. He's a fucking gem, one absolute legend. And that's, and that's so cool to have, you know, this like global community and global survivor family. So yeah. And, and, and your

podcast is a big part of that, It's a big part of connecting. So thank you for doing what you do, Shan. Again, you know, you're saying someone's alleged means nothing, but I mean, I'm sure it's true, but it means nothing. Listen to you in this podcast. They're such a great player. It's like none of that. All that needs like 20 percent taken off it, you know, like just in case,

just in case. And that's my credibility. Yeah, just saying. But I mean, look, hey, that credibility is why I in case, just in case. And the way that's my credibility. Yeah. Just saying. But I mean, look, I hate that credibility is why I chose Rachel, my draft team. So thank you very much for that. Cause I was like, but Dino is so high on everyone, but I was like, eh, yeah, I'll still take it. I caught up as I was with Matthew Haywood and Kieran and Owen. And, um, I was thinking like, wow, like this, like we would say with Matt, we

were like, what are the odds that we would ever meet? Like Matt is this guy from like a little tiny English town. He came to Scotland to visit us. Kieran from South Africa, we're from Australia. We're meeting in London. Owen obviously from America and we're meeting in London. And I was like, the surviving community is incredible. Like when would any of these people know each other?

Like I come from like a pretty insular Jewish community in Sydney. Like my friends are like my high school friends or like any number of like surviving people from around the world and podcasters and like the community. And like it's genuinely the best thing about doing this, which is a high bar, because I love podcasting, but like the community and the amazing people you meet and the kindred spirits and like every moment I had with the players, I was like, this is surreal.

Like it's such a strange way to make friends, but then the friends end up being wonderful. And we loved all of our time with all of those people. So I did want to say that as well. Survive a global community forever. Thank you to you all for listening to almost three hours of a podcast and a season that people are not too high on. We appreciate it to the, if you got to the end,

please hashtag for us so I can know who like the real ones are hashtags Hashtags, hashtag crying flowers. We'll do that. Just so we know. Or Bella purring. That was a big theme of the- What I couldn't do in season 8. You got to the end. You made it. Well then. Well, look at you. You won one season of the two you played. It's good enough. Okay. It's fine. Thank you Paul. Thank you for taking your team behind the scenes. We will see you for the finale next week. Bye.

Action. Bye. Ordinary Australians. One million pounds. Million euros. Million chequers. A million rubles. The tribe is floating. The tribe is floating. The adventure of a lifetime.

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