RHAP: We Know Survivor - The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 21: Carolyn Wiger

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 21: Carolyn Wiger ?This week, Dr. Evvie Jagoda (@EvvieJag), Matt Scott (@MattScottGW), and Grace Leeder (@HiFromGrace) are joined by Survivor 44 and Traitors standout Carolyn Wiger for a candid conversation about identity, sobriety, queerness, reality TV, healing, and the courage to live more fully as yourself. Carolyn reflects on getting sober, embracing the word “pansexual”, navigating vulnerability on and off screen, and choosing self-acceptance over changing yourself to be liked. Follow Carolyn on social media and Patreon for more, and be sure to check her out on the new show Bed Rot Challenge.??We want YOU to share your story: What has being LGBTQ+ in the Survivor community meant to you?Please submit your video or audio response by Sunday, June 21st for a chance to be included in an upcoming episode of The Pride Has Spoken. Submit your story here: bit.ly/tphs2026??They also discuss this year’s Pride merch campaign. Profits from merch sales will go toward three LGBTQIA+ charities chosen by the hosts: Rainbow Railroadhttps://www.rainbowrailroad.org/ Ten Oaks Projecthttps://www.tenoaksproject.org/ Sisters PGHhttps://www.sisterspgh.org/ You can find The Pride Has Spoken merch at:http://robhasawebsite.com/store The hosts also highlight several other charities and organizations that listeners suggested, including:Our Spot KCLambert HouseKindling CollectiveAli Forney CenterBranching Out AdventuresNAGLY, the North Shore Alliance of LGBTQ+ YouthLGBTQ+ OutdoorsBAGLYQueer History ProjectHITOPS PrincetonZebra YouthOut & EqualSMYALThe Okra ProjectTrinity Place ShelterUs Helping Us Use #ThePrideHasSpoken and share your love for this week’s guest, or to share your love for the podcast or a queer Survivor player or moment. Order a #ThePrideHasSpoken buff, t-shirt, mug, or more at robhasawebsite.com/store. All proceeds during June will support The Trevor Project. Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to The Pride Has Spoken podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

The 26 Chevrolet Tracks is the stylish SUV for those on the move. And with the standard Chevy safety assist package, you have the backup to handle every turn with confidence. The 26 tracks. Start your build at Chevrolet.ca. Welcome back to the Pride is Spoken. This is episode two of Series 5. How exciting. My name is Grace. I use she, her pronouns, and our lovely crew of folks are here.

We're all going to introduce ourselves. Why don't you go first, Matt? Yeah, I'm Matt Scott. My pronouns are he, him. I'm thrilled to be here. And I'm Evie Jagoda, and I use they-them pronouns, and I'm also so excited to be here for our first real, full episode of the Pride of Spoken this season. So excited.

So excited to be here with you all. Last week was just a little tease, but a good tease, I think. Yes. Yeah. Lovely to hear people be excited about the show. So, yeah. And it's the last time we recorded, it was not Pride Month. And now it is Pride Month.

So happy Pride, everybody. I mean, everybody are, they already, we already told them happy pride. Evie, happy bride especially to you, who's, you know, really going back to the roots of pride and using it as a way, a means to protest. Yes. Thank you, Grace. Thanks for the setup. Yeah, if you don't follow me on social media, you know, I posted a lot about this past weekend was Boston Pride. And first of all, it was really fun.

I was having a great time marching with Unite here, which is a union. and I was marching with my friend who works there, and I look around and see that a candidate, a Democratic candidate for Senate, Seth Moulton, who's trying to primary Ed Markey, one of our senators, was there and was marching in pride. And that made me very mad because Seth Moulton's campaign

literally is based upon him launching to national prominence by saying that Kamala lost because of trans kids, and we basically have to, you know, be constantly. common sense about dumping trans issues or Democrats will never win. And then he has the audacity to come to pride and try to get people's votes by pretending to stand with the queer community. And it really, really upset me. And so I confronted him. And, you know, basically explicitly asked him about the things that he said and how much they hurt me.

And he basically lied and said that he didn't mean to say that, even though that's literally exactly what he said. And he doubled down on it several times after the original comments. And then he walked away from me while saying we need to have these important conversations. And so I personally will not be voting for Seth Moulton. And if you live in Massachusetts, I don't think you should either. And I would really appreciate if people would react to the video. It's on my Instagram at Evie Jag. you know, it's entering the part of the viral video cycle

where it's hitting the transphobes now, so the ratio's getting worse. So I would really appreciate it people, get in there, show it some love. Laverne Cox commented on it today. We have made it. And it honestly... Wait, hold on. Message about next week

just to get a new guest on the pod. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, wait a minute. Yeah. Levern Cox and many, many of our survivor allies and friends. So I thank everyone for doing that. And so many of you listening, thank you all so much to the support, really, really makes it easier to be brave and do things like this. And I just want to say, like, yeah, pride is a protest. Pride is about standing up for gay rights. And it was literally like started by movements led by trans women. The idea that

gay people or Democrats in general will reach power by throwing away our most marginal and vulnerable members of our community is totally wrong. It's not just morally wrong. I think it's literally like practically wrong. If you are willing to throw away one group of people, you'll be willing to throw away anyone. And that's the type of politician that Seth Moulton is. And people should not be allowed to come to pride and just think they can kiss babies

and shake hands and not have to. actually stand with the queer community. So if you see any local transphobic representatives or queer, anti-homophobic, I was like, what's the word for when you hate gay people? Yeah, homophobic. Anti-hap-hap? I'm anti-homagos.

That's also my drag name. New merch. Yeah. And also, yeah, stop kissing our gay babies. Yeah. Politicians. Don't try to turn our gay babies straight. Get away.

Get away. No, but seriously. Yeah. The politicians are supposed to are out there trying to get our votes and they should be held account for what they say. So that was awesome that I was able to do that. And I really appreciate everyone's support so much. It was awesome that you were able to do that.

And just like so proud of you and thankful for you because we live in a time where fear is a tactic and people want us to be afraid to speak up and want trans people to be afraid to speak up and all sorts of groups to be afraid to speak up. And you doing that and modeling that. and showing that. It's badass, first of all,

but I hope that inspires other people, like you said, to speak up and stand up and do what's right rather than being afraid of, like, I don't know, being afraid of all the stories that people tell us of the horrible things that will happen. So thank you, Evie.

So they look cool, and you did it with like your shirt off. Yeah. It's just like real cool. It's like a cool image. It's like could not be more striking for him to be next to you. I think it's so red.

I know. Yeah, I was going to say on that note, like, I wanted to, I don't, I think I'd put like a little like trans like heart gift on my story, but I'm like, how do I place this where it's not over heavy at all? It was so, it was so, yeah, I feel like that worked out so great because the reason I was shirtless is because I was wearing the union t-shirt and I didn't want. So when I went to go do this video, I didn't want to just like, like, make it that the union was like part of the whole thing. Yes. Yeah. I was like, wait, this is epic. It is epic. That's actually so funny. Yeah. It is. Well, it's also just like notable, at least from how you're explaining it,

that it's just a thing that happened and you don't need to plan for these moments. But I think when you, what's the saying when you, you don't have to get ready if you stay ready or something like that. No, I think that's the truth. I think like a lot of people said, you know, I don't think I'd be able to speak, you know, that clearly or anything like that. And it's like, I truly just was like, what do I feel about this? And I do think if you speak, you know,

from I and your experience of a person, that's a really good starting point. And whether you start saying what you believe, what you heard they said and did, anything like that, and how it affected you, I think, is a really good approach.

And lovely modeling that the community will support you. People are really supporting me in the comments and stuff. And, you know, take a lesson from Joe, that block button is free. There's no limit. And the number of people with zero posts

and under 10 followers that think they're really brave on the internet. Those are bots. They're most bots anyway. I mean, not to dismiss that there aren't real trans-gobs in the world, but also his bots. Yeah. Or they don't have friends.

Yeah. I'll stop talking about this, except to say one more thing, which is that people, Democrats acting like it's brave of them to be like, I bravely am actually against trans people. It's so ridiculous. Like, trans people are some of the most marginalized people,

trans children are some of the least powerful people in our society. And for this adult congressman to be like, I'm so brave that I will stand up against trans kids and then literally run away from trans people at Pride is stupid. So that's good to say. There's a really great, if anybody knows the comedian James Ancaster, he's British.

He does a very, very good bit about how the ridiculous, like, argument of transphobes is. He's like, those trans people have had a good for too long, you know? Yeah, exactly. I'll take him down and peg. But I do want to say for real, which is I do think what's disappointing about a politician spouting these lines is that they have resources and ability to be able to have to figure out like what the real experiences of people are. I do think like if you in your head, I think there might, there could be people listening now who think like, oh, I don't think like, you know, trans people should play in the sport that's different. You know, that's different than, you know, like I think like, you know, go and listen to some people talk about what that experience is actually like. and you probably quickly learn that it is not this big,

like, anti-gat, you know, it's not this, like, horrific thing that we're talking about, you know, like, gender affirming care for kids is like, and then also, like, even stuff where it is, like, technically a minor, it goes through so much, like, there's so much, like, parental and individual and doctor consent and, like, all of this stuff. So it's like, there's so much fear mongering and misinformation out there. And so, like, I think what's extra disappointing in this situation

is that, like, this individual could just go do the research before you, like, publicly says a thing for people who are listening. for people who are listening who have those like I don't know how many there are do you listening but just go you know meet some trans people talk to some trans people they're real and you came to the right place

yeah yeah yeah yeah no but and genuinely I just want to like yeah affirm everything you're saying grace 100% there's so much fear mongering out there like it's okay to think for one you know it's like like oh you know maybe that has some logic to it but I think it's really important to remember that

these narratives are also being fed to us by the right, by transphobic people, like the right decided to make sports an issue because it seems like a common sense thing. And mostly the vast, fast, fast majority of what we're talking about is like children in schools, there was a really good comment in my, on the post saying like, I don't know what to tell that guy,

but every gym class I ever did in high school was co-ed. And I survived playing dodgeball with people of all genders, and it was fine. So, like, that's kind of generally what we're talking about. I'm also going to say, there was a survivor player who come once and was like, my family doesn't believe that trans people should compete in, like, in other sports. And like, I don't know what to, how to like, debate them, basically. But, and also they were like acknowledging, like, part of it is their own ignorance to not feel like,

like, there's part of them has felt like, yeah, maybe there is some logic to that. If you're willing to have, like, an honest conversation about this thing, I'm not inviting people who are like, trans people shouldn't play in sports into my DM. but if you want to have a real conversation about it, I'm open, you know? Happy to chat. Yeah. Yeah.

I was also going to say, as someone who's not trans, like, yeah, feel free to DM me and put the weight on me. And then we could have this conversation too. But people oftentimes say that they want to have a conversation and they don't. Yeah. Like Seth Moulton, who said he just wants to have a conversation and then fully walked away from me. That's right. Okay, so like 10 minutes ago, I thought of a really great segue to the next,

which is you, Evie, you took your shirt. off, but actually if you want to put a really great shirt on, we have new kind of spoken merch. Yeah, I thought about that so long. I'm so worried we're too far. So, not have to make a joke about how we're too far. So we have new merch designed by the wonderful graphic designer, Jose, who is amazing, and thanks to Derek, you know, patron Derek, the patron saint, I like to call him, for helping us put together a lot of the stuff. So it's Rob is a podcast, but Rob is a website.com slash merch or slash store. Either of those work. There is a lovely collection of new merch. You can get, We added this year, not just a new design for t-shirts and for anything else you want.

Crop tops. Yes. Still trying to figure out the hats. The hat printing seems to be not loving our logo. So, you know, we'll see if we can figure that out. Put a shirt. Put a buff on your head. You know, wear it on your head.

Like, you can wear a crop top on your head. If you just tie it around your head. Like, there's so many things that are replacements for hats. Stickers as well. So all of that merch is available. All the proceeds of profits from these shirts are going to be going to three different charities. We each picked one. We have Rainbow Railroad, which is helping trans folk access and navigate to safer states or different locations to help with their care.

Ten Oaks Project does a lot of great LGBTQ summer camp and youth programs, some swim nights, things like that. And sisters, PGH, which is a housing, safe housing and self-determination for trans folks across Pittsburgh. So those are the locations. We also shouted out a bunch in the last episode. of different charities that people suggested to us. Those were in the show notes from last week, so check those out and donate if you like any of those, but make sure you buy some merch.

There are only about 100 buffs available. We heard about 100 buffs. I think that they're available in the store. It might not ask you for all your information yet because it's a little bit of a different shipping process, so don't worry about that. We will get you a buff if you order a buff, unless you're more than 100 people

and then you won't be able to buy a buff. Again, while they're hot. Matt, we have a special. We're going to do some special events later. We have a little special thing we want to do. Yes, absolutely. One of the things that we want to do is include you, the listeners, in the podcast. And so, as I've done recently on my other podcast, Pod friends,

we're inviting you and members of the LGBTQ plus community who are listeners to share what being LGBTQ plus in the Survivor community means to you. all of us have heard from listeners, more people in the community about that through various avenues over the last several years, but we finally want to include that in the podcast. And so if you want to share your story in a minute or less, we're inviting you to submit it by Sunday, June 21st,

and the link is B-I-T-L-Y-T-H-H-S-2026. That's bit. dot Lee slash TPS 2026. We'll put that link in the show notes and also share that out more broadly because we want to hear from you and have all of our lovely listeners

also hear from you with your story and what being queer in this community has meant to you. So that's video or audio and again by June 21st. And two things I want to say about this. One, that idea originated someone at some

R-H-G-E-B event. suggested it. One of you listening. I'm pretty sure it was someone at the last New York live show. So if that was you, great idea. That was the gayest of all the live shows, I think. I don't know. And they're all pretty pretty gay. Yeah. By the way, as a side note, yeah, like 50 to 100 people got a bunch of pride of spoken pins at that event as well. So yes, such a gay event. But yes, somebody there. Thank you for plug it. Yes, Evie, holding up the pin made by What Up Tim. ally. It's so sweet and it has our names on it, which is really cute.

I love it. It really is. And Dr. Evie Jagoda, which I love. So this is amazing. And then second thing, yeah. The second thing was this is just a little, a little challenge. The last two seasons of Pride of Spoken, we've had someone come out on the Pride of Spoken. That's so true. And now this is your chance. Yeah, that's true. We don't have one this year. So if you could do it as a fan, that would be great. That would be awesome. So. Come out.

But, you know, this is a safe, loving space to be yourself. So lovely. Okay. I'm out. I also just want to say something cool that I heard recently that I loved. Because there's the idea of coming out, but I've heard people reframing it as inviting people in. So I don't know if that could become a thing, but come out or invite people in, invite us in, invite the listeners in. And we're here to support you.

Okay. So fun. people maybe have heard enough of, I mean, we're still going to be on the episode, but they do have a special guest and people have seen in the episode title. So Abby, who do we have joining us today? We have the one, the only Carolyn Weiger from Survivor Season 44 and the Traders Season 4, 3, 4, 3, 3, 3. 3. Yeah, you went for it. And Traders Season 3. And as you all know,

Carolyn rocks and she always has such interesting to say and I don't think we've heard that much of her talking about her queerness publicly so really excited to talk her. Super excited. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick.

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Hello, Carolyn. Thank you so much for being here. Of course, primary claim to fame being my roommate at the over the edge in Florida this year. That's right. Many other accolades as well, like being the star of Survivor 44 and the traders season four, so we're so on season three, Evie, come on. But also season four, if you think about it. Might as well have been season four too. Yeah, there was no real stars on season and season five.

No, not even Rob. No, no, no, stars on season four? No, no, we're not saying that. We're not, we're not saying that. None. Stop. Do you all believe that? Well, obviously, no, there were, yeah,

Rob Cessarino was a big star. No, it just rolls up the tongue. Survivor 44, season four. Yeah, easy mistake. And I only have eyes for you, Carolyn. You know, it's like that. Which, what the fuck? Why does everybody hate season 44 now?

Do they? You know, actually, no, that's weird. People are so weird about season 44. Like, they're not, I thought season 44 was awesome. I thought there were Emmy Awards on the way. Like, all the, I don't know what happened, Carolyn. So what the other seasons? And again, I was like, I'm happy for 43.

I recently saw some ranking thing. and 43 was above 44. I was like, which I'm like, I get it like, I felt so bad for 43 when 44, I did because there was so much negative. And so I'm like, oh, give it to them. But I was like, within the last, I would say, year or two,

I just keep seeing like everyone hates 44, which is okay if you don't like it. Do you think there's just like new era fatigue? Do you think it's just like, it's not about 44 specific, it is just like, you know, there was a little of, like, we saw the same thing for 10 seasons. Do you think that that could be?

Absolutely. Absolutely, which is why it's like, even when you look at season 50, it was like, they definitely, they forgot all of, am I right? All of the first half of the new era. What the hell? All of it.

All of it. Well, Jonathan, but other than that, every season was forgotten. And it's like, what's crazy to me, too, when thinking about, like, casting and like, it's like, I never in a million years would have thought, like just viewership-wise, that they would bring people back that just, I know we've seen it before, but like that just played for 50.

And to just completely, if you're going to do that many new era, just to be like, sorry, the rest of it. It was like, where's the rest of the new era? and why double up on every season and put all these pairs in there? Why not add some different people? Carolyn, our concern is that, you know,

right here on this pod, that Survivor feel is not very queer. Not very old human TQ. It was like a little. It was a little, you know. You had Mike and Ozzy, you know, that's like, you know. Bisexuals.

That's it. Which as a bisexual, I feel like we need even more representation on this season. You want more of my representation? 20. I want, no, well, yeah, sure. Let's get, like, we'll get Carolyn in there.

We'll have some pan representation. Like, come on. It's fine. Evie, come on. Evie. That's right. Absolutely. Sorry, I got thrown for a sec about you asking me if I was bisexual.

And then I was like, how much am I going to share about the times that I've hooked up with other trans boys and then been like, maybe I'm by for, like, girls and trans boys. And it's different and fun. but I think it's more like, but it is different and it is fun and I think I do like same and do like different. So if that's what we're doing here, that's what's happening. So, Carolyn,

is Pan how you identify? Does that feel like the best? I absolutely how I identify and that came, or not early on. It came when I got sober. It came because I can't be like, I came out of the womb and was like, I know, but when I got sober,

found out or tried to just discover who I actually was. It became this like self like I was just like reading and writing and I spent so much time just trying to like figure out who I was what like my purpose, all of those types of thing. And it just felt the most comfortable for me, the most natural for me. And so I'm like, wow, whoa. And then comes like the exploration phase. But that was like when I was 22. and when I truly feel like I like was born.

Truly. At 22. Like in your view. I got sober. I discovered like who I really am. And that just made the most sense to me. So no, absolutely.

I think that's beautiful because it reminds me of a friend of mine who I think at 25 realized that he was by. And it like I almost can't wrap my head around it. So I'm like, oh, like of course there's some. Like I knew about myself at some point early. But like what I'm learning is so many people find more about themselves along the way.

Like how did that, could you say more about like how you realized that through reflection and just like slowing down and being sober? Being, well, A, being sober. Also, I was traumatized by sex. Can I say that? Yeah. Oh yeah, you guys talk about that. Okay. So like, that's what we're here to do.

That might be the tamest, one of the tamest topics we had. No, no, please, please. And I don't want to sound disrespectful to like, because I've had periods in my life where it was like, I hate men, I hate them. I'm in one right now. And I very much, like, but it's like, I can't like, okay, I hate men right now, but I'll go back.

No, but it very much was like, I felt like, like sex was just like so disturbing with a man. But also it was like, I felt so much safer with a woman. It was the safety thing. But I can't even say man, woman. It was like person. Truly, it was like the.

And so when as I learned about myself and as I learned like, oh my gosh, I no longer like to like just sit around and have like this small talk BS conversation. And it's for me when I'm connecting, it's like that's my attraction. That's my like I'm like, that's what I need. which isn't that like some, what do you call that? No. Like Demi or something. Yeah. So I'm like, what?

How many labels are there? Yeah. I need that. And that's when I'm like, okay, that like this just makes sense. Whoa, wow. I didn't know I felt this way. And it's the safety. It's the connection.

It's because it's so much more to me than just like, oh, I'm a, I don't have a type. I don't. Sure. Be like a human. That's it. Yeah. I don't have a type. I don't even have one.

No, that really speaks to me, like, in general about, I feel like there's a kind of a conception of, like, yeah, your sexuality is just, like, raw factor. Like, if you just see a picture of a person, like, who are you attracted to? You know, and you should just be able to do that. But so much of attraction is the actual, you know, the chemistry, the person, the safety, your own experiences that you've brought into that. Like, I think so much about, like, yeah, my interest with men or masculine people in general

is so different now that I am me in the gender expression that I am now versus me when I was acting as pretending to be being seen as a woman, a straight woman, like, and the roles in which that would put me

in romantic sexual experiences with men felt so wrong, like over time. That was clearly wrong. And then it's like, what piece of that is, is the me piece? Is the them piece?

Is the, like actual desire, you know? And I totally think too, like, I've done a lot of therapy, like a lot. And it's like, I'm kind of at a point too, like, where it's like all the trauma that I've faced, it's like has changed me. And it's like, and that's okay. Like I have to have like have acceptance with it, but I cannot change the way that I feel even like.

And I know it's like it's the human I'm connected to. However, it's like I would say more so I'm going to feel way more safe with a woman than a man, I just, I, maybe I just have not met, like, uh, I don't feel,

it's not as natural and it doesn't feel safe to me. And so, or just like the, like, again, the roles and like the, where you feel like you have to like be this person to, and it's not like that.

Typically, if I am with a woman, but can I, there's one thing to obviously, I think all of us have been, where like it's like, oh, like I realize something.

Like, oh, I know, like, yeah. And then it's another thing to actually sort of, sort of come out was, what,

could you talk a little bit about that experience, like to family or friends or, you know, what, was that, does it, was it just like, I'm out or was it,

like, yeah, well, I feel like I want to hear the Carolyn coming out story. I wasn't. My best friend, she passed away in 2021. She was a lesbian.

It was a horror, truly horrible, but I, I still, like, I talk to her every day. I, she's like a part of my life.

Her name was Kyla. And, She, and I don't even want to say she was a lesbian, like, he liked women, because she hated labels. And so she truly inspired me to like, she's like, this was her thing. She's like, straight people don't need to announce to the world. And again, I get also on the other end of things, how important it is to announce to the world that like, I'm gay or I, because that is serves as purpose and is it is, is, we're a representation, all of that stuff. But she's like, yeah. straight people don't make some big announcement.

So I'm not either. And she just started introducing her girlfriends. And it was like, you know, it was just normal. Like she just made it. It was just normal. And so I did the same thing. I remember my dad had was asking me like, I was had a date or something. This was, gosh, obviously a long time ago.

And I'm like, well, yeah, I've been talking to this, this, yeah, it's a woman. And he didn't even, like, it didn't even faze him. It did not. Like, you know what I'm. saying there was no like, what are you doing or it was just normal. Were you expecting that from your, like was that? No. No.

Yeah. I grew up in such like, yes, very liberal, very accepting, which like, oh, thank God, but like it was just, um, yeah, right. Like acceptance, but it was like, okay, like love who you're going to love. And that's how I was always taught, like just growing up kindness. And I try to teach my son that like above all else, kind. kindness, like be kind, be kind, be kind, and accepting we're all different and we're all, like, that's what's beautiful about all, like the world. We're different. So it was not some like,

and then I can, and then it was just like, okay. Like, yeah, I love that. And I think it's just like so true that it's just like different, yeah, different things will work for different people, right? Like there's some people that like, like, like that just feels so right of like, why does, why do I need to announce this. I'm just going to live my life. I'm just going to introduce, you know, I'm just going to have my partners whoever they are and you can deal with that. And then there's people like me that I was like, wait,

this is the biggest news of my life and I need to actually talk about it like it's a huge deal. You know what I mean? And that's just like, right, different, yeah, just different reactions to it. Absolutely. But I was, that stuck with me because it was like and I just thought it was so

like, just badass. Like it was just like, here's my girlfriend. And we didn't, like, it was like, wow, like this person makes you happy. That's it. Yeah. That's how it should be like the acceptance why. Like it's like, great. You're happy.

That's powerful. And it's interesting because I wonder, was there kind of on the flip side of what you're talking about? Like sometimes people, like, they look at you and they're like, oh, you're queer. I'm going to make that. I'm going to assume that's a bigger part of your story and who you are and like put you into certain boxes, did you feel like there were any points when people were like, oh, Carolyn's our, like, our pan friend or did anything like that come up?

And I wonder if that came up for you, like, either before reality TV or even like going into the world of reality TV. No, and I did talk about it on Survivor, but it didn't make like the edit. Yeah. That's part of why our podcast exists. It's like, oh, you're queer and it didn't make the edit. Oh, okay. Oh, you know what are the only?

Carol, can I just say, though, you're one of the few where, like, a lot of other, I'm like, so surprising that that, like, you didn't, like, a person, somebody else didn't get the queer part of their story. And for you, I'm like, yeah, you have, there's a lot of Carolyn's story to tell. So I think, like, you know, you're, yeah, I'm like a little. Oh, but also it's a shame. But also, I would say with, like, a very large percentage of the people to whom that happens are, like, classically beautiful women. And so, uh, yeah. It's very true. checks out. When it's like, why is that? And then obviously the ones that like, it's like, you're like, okay, you can't really hide that. So you like, we're going to talk about it. I mean, why do you think, yeah, oh yeah, go ahead, Abby. Yeah, I think it's because they want enough women to be sexual objects of men viewers. Like I do. No, totally. Yeah. So it's like if we reveal too many of them are gay, then it will be bad. Which I felt like in the new era, like, no offense, I thought that. Like, we did away with that. I know. I know.

I really, okay, Carolyn, what about this? Right now, everyone's hating on the new era. People are bored.

In five years, people are going to be like, I miss woke survivor. Like, I miss woke survivor. I'll say that right now. Well, it's just like,

I don't know about an unpopular opinion, but like, well, all mine are, but like, I like, I like hearing the stories.

I do. Totally. I do. I like hearing about, like, backstory when it's natural. And I remember even being out there and being like, oh, I don't want to do this in my confessional.

I want it. And there was other times that I had like just talked about like things like, but I always wanted it to be like, I'm going to do this at camp. I want it to be. Because I hated that like. And obviously people can't help it. Like they're pulling crap out of you at certain times. But it's like I don't want to be one of those people who's like.

And then A, B, and C. I wanted it to be natural and it's so, I mean, this is a produced show, so what do we expect? Yeah. And was it something that you were, yes, you said you were talking about it with camp, was it something that you were connecting with some of the other queer people

on the cast like Jam Jam and Josh and Granny. Granny, yeah. All of me and Jam Jam's conversations they happened like we were whispering. We didn't watch anyone. We talked about some really like crazy jazz.

Okay, can you tell us one? Yeah, please. One whispered secret. Oh my God, just thought like... I love that you started whispering. You don't get to do. Don't worry, Carolyn. It's just stuff.

Just like talking shit. I mean, just mainly like talking shit. Like, mainly like what that hell are. Like talking about ourselves and not feeling like we fit into like. And just feeling like, oh my gosh. There's like just things like that where it was like. And then just a lot of my personal like, home life because I was going through

I was going through hell at home like my relationship and I remember I was like I told him this like day like two when I was like crying and they didn't have the cameras because at night there's only like the one and I was crying and I was like I don't want to talk about this person I don't I was like I didn't

like don't like them I'm like in a really bad place right now I don't want to like because I was like right before I got out there I was going through some stuff with in relationship wise. And so I opened up to him about everything. And then we just talked about like being those weirdos. And because it sucks. It just, like I was so proud of myself.

And I felt like I knew like this sounds bad, but like I kind of expected to be the first boot. I really did. And not that like I would like, I'm just going to, oh, take me away. But I kind of expected to. just people are going to think I'm crazy. People are going to, I've gotten that my whole life. But I had some hope because I was like, I've done so much work out myself. I'm so proud of like who I am.

And to get those side eyes and to get, and it's not everybody. It's not, it wasn't everyone, but just to get like those like, I've gotten that all the time. I got it on traders. I get it in my everyday life. Anybody who tells me that maybe I should change doesn't. know what it feels like to be around people that don't accept you for you. That's way more lonely and way more miserable. So you know what? I am kind of a freak. I am weird. I am different, whatever. And I'm going to own it. And I would rather, as painful as it can be sometimes,

I would rather have the side eyes and I would rather have the eye rolls. I'm not going to change. Like I am so, I'm not changing. I'm not like because I know the alternative. I know the alternative, but it doesn't mean that it still doesn't hurt. That's the like, it hurts my feelings sometimes. I'm not going to lie. It's like, screw you people. Like, oh. So I felt like, honestly, there was just, again, not everyone, but I felt like,

again, those, we all have been there where people look at you like just or when you say something and it's like. And I felt, which I felt like, isn't that old school survivor where you have to be. be strong and you have to be a challenge me. It's like I felt so just this big because I was not good at any of the things. And on Survivor, I feel like depending on the season, the tribe, whatever, it's like, wow, you did so well in that challenge. How did you, we talk about that for like, because we don't got anything else to talk about. So it's like, how did you do that? Well, you're so strong. And it was like, you think I can be like, no, I was the first one out or I was, So it felt, but it was almost like I just felt this big like I didn't contribute.

Like I didn't, and it sucked. Like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Like one thing that jumps out to me, though, about maybe, back to what you're saying about why, like, season 44 is lower for people is because we did get a story through your lens, Carolyn, like literally from the first second of the season.

And we're getting like the bros talking and you're like, what the hell? hell is this? Like, I'm right here. What are you doing? And then you obviously don't win in the end, which sucks for all of us because we're like, Carolyn should have won. What are we doing? And so maybe that's like, that's like how I'm, oh, um, no comment. Jim, who? I know. He already had his episode. Yeah. Just kidding. Jam, damn. Just kidding. I love you. Yeah, but it's like, interesting. Wait. What? Just to clarify, I think the point, which is because I feel like the way you made your point. But is that all the, all the, all the, like, anti-woke bros are now the ones complaining about season 44. Is that what you're saying? That's it. That's exactly it. Because they don't like it.

Well, and, yeah, all that. It's a stellar story. Is that the point? No, they, they don't like the Carolyn loss or we don't like the Carolyn loss. So the anti-woke bros, we don't like Carolyn are hating the season. And the ones who are rooting for Carolyn are also hating the season. It just adds up. Yeah. Okay. I just mean, I'm just getting out here and say, I don't even think it's true that people hate, so I don't. I don't even think it's true that people hate, so I. I, I 40 degrees. I think anyone, any rating that is saying that is like, people need to go back and watch it.

I think it was one, it was super beloved for a reason. And I think like, Carolyn, like a huge, huge part of that reason was you, is you. And you and Carson and Jamjan together.

Like I think maybe when people are thinking back on it and you know like, oh, the Tika 3 goes all the way. And then it's like some amount of like, oh, they were just this awesome alliance that went the whole way. But actually watching it in real time. It was the story of

the weirdos, the people getting the eye rolls, winning the game and being the strongest lines. And that I feel like was so beautiful to watch as a viewer. And I know that people are really connected to it at the time for sure. That's what I thought. And so I was, again, I was, same with like,

I was shocked when they did, like, winners 450. And I'm like, why the hell was Marianne not there? And I'm just saying, I feel like, if you're going to do winners, Marianne, I feel like, is literally the face of the new era when it comes to winners. Like, I do. I believe that. Like, I feel like she was the first, like, holy shit.

Like, I remember watching when, like, then I flew out to Fiji, but I watched her win and then flew up there. And it was like, oh my gosh. Like, there's hope for, like, you know what I'm saying? Like somebody, because early on, remember everyone's like, she's annoying and she talks to me. And it was like. in the first episode I think I'm here to play for the weirdos something like that. Yeah. Hell yeah. I like yeah. Love that.

I'm thinking like what? And she's not on 50 anyway. But I'll shut up about that. I just No. I mean, yeah. Oh, I was just going to say like, I mean, what's clear is that like there's so many other great opportunities. Wherever you are, Carolyn, is where I'd want to be. So, you know, Mary, like we'll see Mary Ann when it's time to see Mary Ann. and we'll see you once you'll see you, right?

And this is the kind of thing, like, when Jeff does these interviews and is like, I want it to be a kid-friendly show, and so we need to, like, change X, Y, Z, whatever, like, you making it to the end, you and Jam Jam, making it to the end of the game,

Marianne winning the game, like, that is what makes it a show that's good for kids to me. It's, like, having this narrative of, like, be your freaking self. Like, there's a reason why you're, like, one of the number one stars of the new era, and it's because you are so,

yourself. It's true. You can make that face all you want. It is. We know it's true. Why does everyone hate me in real life then? Or not hate me? I feel like you, I mean, I'll say, I feel like anytime you're anywhere, everyone is trying to

kiss your butt. They're kind of faking it a little bit. And everyone was with me at that was truly the highlight of my, like, meeting you. It was so fun, Carol. I fell in love with you. I did just check your Instagram, you're still in a relationship.

I'm still in a disrespect to like, you know, I'll keep you updated, you know? I was like, I did Jack and like, yep, so I don't want to like be like, yeah, I fell in love with Abby, but I am saying it anyway. You can't feel like, Abby. Quakes, I love it. Yeah, 100%. I was like, I couldn't believe. I was like, Evie was my highlight of that, like, made everything worth it.

Like, because it was a lot of craziness and it was a lot. Like, you know I get really stressed at that stuff. And I think, I think that. And you were just like so chill. And so I just wanted Abby by me all the time and was like, screw everyone else. And it, it, it, it, I think a lot of people like assume that like, I love attention and I love. And I don't. And I'm very much like I'm loud and annoying sometimes.

But I'm not like, even the way certain people, remember my butt was showing what was going on? Were you there when my butt? I'm not. at the signing. Remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah. Was it doing the Marilyn Monroe? Like, yeah.

The air was like the, and so, okay, I had people like, and I won't name names, but like we're just, your dresses, your dress. I don't care. I have underwear on. There's not like, I can not, again, that might sound like, I'm not trying to have my butt show, but, But also it was like, Carolyn, you got to be over here.

Carolyn, there's people who want to. And I started crying and I went out to the parking lot and I felt so oversimulated and so overwhelmed. And I remember even too, I got there a little bit late, not terribly late, but I didn't get any sleep. And oh, we figured you'd want to be front and center. No, put me to the back. I don't want like, I, it's like people assume that I want all of this attention and that I'm, I don't. I run from it. I get like, I feel almost like when people will tell me like,

and again, I appreciate, like, especially the weirdos and the people who can relate. I love that. That's why I did that because I didn't ever feel like there's people that I was like, wow, that's like me. However, I'm like I am a regular person and like, I just, like, I feel like that's too much power. Like, I can't. You know what I'm saying?

You also feel like, I feel like especially because you are, so, like, honest and, you know, so authentically their stuff that people then really, like, put a lot on you in those conversations. Like, they kind of, like, want to share their deepest, darkest thing. And that's kind of a lot to receive from so many people at a time. Am I talking too much, do I? No. No, you're talking about it. Yeah, you're great. That's why I stop, like, I'll open my DMs once in a while, okay? And I get, and that's why I just started, like, doing the life coaching stuff, which I'm on a break from. And I have too big of a heart.

And the stuff that people read, I try to explain this to people. The stuff that people reach out to me for, it's not just like good move out there or good. And so it's some heavy, deep shit. And I have a heart. My cameo is when someone reaches out to me, they're talking about addiction or they're talking about their struggle.

I go for 20 minutes. I care. I put my heart into this shit. I just had somebody and this is, I go, this is why I don't open DMs. Someone was like, would you be a judge in our, it was for an org. You guys know what orgs? Right, yeah, online reality. An orgy?

I wish. I would have been there. The judge? I could judge an org. No, Flags, just freaking Flags. So like. Okay. Like, what is Flags?

I don't know what Flags is. I think it's the homophobic slats. No, no. I'm getting. How does a good joke, though? Thank you. Thank you. I'm just kidding, Carol.

No, that would have been a lot more fun. So what is it? I read this message and I'm like, would you be a judge for, and I can't say no to orgs because that's where I'm coming from. And you say yes, the one, you're going to get a million. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And so I do in that I saw this one. And I was like, Like, this is literally why I don't. And pretty soon I'm judging the contest and I'm making videos and I'm real. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, this is literally why I don't do this. But again, when I see like org pop up, it's almost like I have an alert and I want to help everyone who has an org because that's like I get it and blah, blah, blah. That's like that took me like, oh my God, that took forever. And so it's like I can't say no when.

And again, it's like people will reach out with such like that. that's a fun example. But like, it's very time consuming all of this stuff. And I mean, I did a lot for this. And the heavy stuff, it drains me.

And it's not that I don't care. That's why I started the life coach stuff. Like I care too much. And I've learned in my life, in my relationships. Like, I have been, what do you call it?

Like, I'm an empath. I care too much. I've been that person who's like, you know, who puts their needs last or second or whatever, just seeing the, always seeing the good and other, I don't do that anymore.

I don't. I very much am still an empath, but like I need to take care of me, or I am just going to be completely miserable. And so I don't want to say I have boundaries because they're terrible, but I very much so am okay with like saying no, because I have to or I'll go nuts. Yeah.

I care too much. It's true. Like, I care too much. Well, I was going to say to me, because I know I've heard you on kicking and screaming and otherwise talking about how, like, you've only been to so many events. Like, there was the one RHAP event in Brea. There have been another, a number of events here and there.

And then you also mentioned not looking at your DM. So it sounds to me like you're like a software queen, aware of what it is that you could handle. but I could still imagine that being tough to still try to say no. I can't like it's very hard like even again some people like really can thrive.

I feel like Jam Jam's a good example of like somebody who like I am not like that. I very much can like I get very overwhelmed I'm running away and then it's like I had one it was Brea at the bar afterwards. I had a line of people and I'm like

therapy and these people like crying. You were in the lobster suit. And I was like being a therapist. Like I was clearly I was like I had like people crying and what am I going to be? And truly again because I care and that's how I connect with people. And so it's like I like tell me your trauma and all that. But does it get exaunt like that was a line of trauma. Yeah.

Yeah. It makes no much sense to me. I mean it's like. it's so hard because we're in this place, I feel like we're so many people don't have anyone to talk to you about these things and don't have access to therapy, don't have a good community around them.

And I think that is one of the beautiful things that we're able to do with reality TV is provide examples and help support people to have community and through Survivor and through RCHP and things like that. But at the end of the day, like reality show contestants are just one person that are, you know, people that are on a show

and we're not trained therapists, like, doing therapy and things like that. And it can be so, it makes so much sense that people see you, they feel connected to you, you know, and yet you can't be, you can't be that for everybody, you know? And I think, yeah,

it's something cool about having, you know, these bigger spaces where we can have these conversations where it's still, of course, like, obviously boundaryed. We're just the ones talking here, but like we can maybe have these conversations in public in a way that allows us to not like, yeah, suck all of our life force away, but like still be able to like provide a space for people. But it is really a challenge. Like so many people need help and it makes so much sense that people are really drawn to seek that from you. And I love that. Like that's why I did like truly. It's like that's why I share so much

and share like my struggles and share just like all of like um just anything like bad or like bad that I'm going through or um these bad experiences or traumas or because it's like I just I don't want anybody to feel like I like I don't have my shit together I am a mess I do struggle I still go to therapy if I need to I still like I very much I cry I just had this experience on this bed rot, which I said I wasn't going to talk about, which I very much wasn't emotional. And I don't want to say mess, but because, but it always takes me a minute to like, I very much will like react emotionally.

And then it like, it takes me a minute to just calm down and be like, okay, wow, that hurt my feelings and then be able to like make a coherent like sentence. but stuff hurts like we're human and that's like with any game that you play whether you're rotten in a bed or rotten on an island

it's very much like a human experience and it's so funny like I'm thinking about like when I watch when I was watching 15 and people were I got so annoyed of like

I think a lot of people did about like the honor and integrity yes yeah and I'm like why are they taking so so this is a game So can you all help me? Like, why do I then? I was thinking about this.

Because I'm like, it's just a game. Why do I not look at it as just a game when people do and say certain things then? You know what? I think personally, like, and you tell me if this feels true, I think what to me is so frustrating about the honor and integrity, like narrative is that it's so freaking fake.

Like it's from people lying. I mean, Joe literally like, no offense. Joe. Like, this is not coming for Joe, but just in a clear example where he's always talking about honor. Yeah, block away. Top of the show I said, I love that block button.

Feel free. But, like, you know, if you're saying always, you know, honor integrity and then you're voting out all your allies or your coach who every season comes on here and says he's like such a good person and then does shady shit, like that is what's so hard to watch about like honor integrity. Versus if I feel like you go out there and try to be real,

yourself and you're actually like reacting to stuff as a real human emotion of things happening. But there's some stuff that like that there's a different. I guess what I mean is there's a difference between saying nothing matters because it's all a game. Like it still matters what people do, but not like, oh, you voted for me. You know what I mean? Like that's different than you looked at me with a side eye and made me feel small as a person or like a freak.

You know what I mean? That's not game. in my opinion, like, you're not like playing a game or there's still like, because yeah, something happens on this where it's like, you didn't need to do that. And it hurt because I can understand and I can like make sense of things that like, oh, okay, this needs to happen in the game or like strategy wise. Like, yep, that makes sense.

But then there's just some stuff where it's like, you can't help it. Like even when I was on Traders, when what's his name would call me bad shit crazy, it hurt. I started crying immediately. Yeah. Like, and I remember thinking like, God, like, I literally, I'm wearing a dress right now. I thought people would think I was normal. But it don't matter what you wear, what you look, like, truly.

Like, it's like, my personality isn't hiding. And so I'm going to be, I'm going to be called crazy. And it is what it is. But it's how. can you look at that type of stuff and be like, well, that's just the game. Don't take it personally when you're playing as yourself and with real feelings. So yeah, I don't know. People always say I'm not meant for these and we'll, yeah. Well, no, I mean, I feel like the difference is when I think of you, Carolyn, like one of the words that comes to mind is vulnerability. When I think of them,

I think of, I mean, I don't see that. I feel like it's more manipulative or whatever do you want to use. We're not here to talk about them, but like... Manipulative or Dululu, you know? Whatever it might be. But it's... Yeah, I think it's... It feels different, even if we can't figure out what the difference is exactly. But I think...

Is it because we don't like, like, the bro type? Is that what it is? I mean, for sure. Like, I also think there's that thing. And you tell me, like, I think... Chris is like... I mean, it's not untrue, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's not untrue, but...

And somebody's gay, someone who just got this to me. Like, they were like, you claim to like, because this just happened again too on something else. And like, you're supposed to be a life coach and you're a drug counselor and you're blah, blah, blah. And you are here judging people. And I'm like, yes, I'm judging people with big muscles. And I can't help it. Like, yeah, maybe I could if I did some work on it.

But I don't connect with those people. And like historically, those are the people. that like have not been nice to me or who have messed with me or I have bad experiences with. So no, I'm not rooting for some like bro. It's just not. And so is that judgmental of me? And it reminds me of like all the Republicans who tell me like, yeah, it's supposed to be so accepting. And you liberals claim to be so. Yeah, I'm not accepting of hate. So you get what like. So is that like hypocritical of me? Because I'm like, I mean, I think there's like a world in which we can have the platonic ideal where everybody can, you know, be their full of self and hopefully that make them a good person and like and et cetera.

And the reality is we live in a world run by heteropatriarchy. And patriarchy is bad for everybody, especially men who, I mean, not as I especially men, including men, but say, including men. including men who I feel like over the course of their lives received so much terrible messaging and things like that and I think it's okay to you know not not say like oh I could never you know like anyone who has muscles but like that on average people seeped in gym bro culture have treated me X, Y, Z way I think is like I don't see a problem with that

and I feel like there's like there's also reality when you're when you're a woman, when you're a queer person, when you're a person of color, there's some measure of I need to be safe in the world, and sometimes you have to navigate situations by assuming who might be the best ally to go to in a particular situation. We wish it wasn't that way. You know, I'll speak about it.

I wish it wasn't that way. Yeah. Yeah. And just to like add to that too, like healthy masculinity is being able to handle that and to be able to be like, oh, that's not about me or I could be, like something that's not that dominant story of masculinity.

So this is the podcast, Carolyn. We go all over the place. Yeah, earlier you were saying, like, I hate men. And it's like, you know, a talk to a person who has like positive masculinity would recognize that like, you know, not every man. And also like, you know, men can be dangerous to women. You know, like, you know, there are structures in place. So, you know, and my tolerance doesn't have to include people who are intolerant of me,

you know, so because of who I am. So, you know, I wouldn't judge yourself too hardly. Yeah. And you know, Kylan, that my survivor bio, my pet, my pet was men. No, I remember that. Loved it.

Loved it. No, we're aligned, you know. One thing I, between your survivor experience and then the traitors' experience, I do feel like what is it so interesting to me about the traitors' experience is that the traders gives up, like I think what a lot of people have gravitated towards and a lot of queer fans is this, like, there is such a campiness and a queerness to that show.

I mean, Allen hosting it and who they have, you know? And yet I feel like what you're bringing up is like this like, that that might not have run quite as deep as maybe we want to think that it does on a show, like the traders. Is that, is that sort of how you feel like? And I don't want to be like, like I got along with people and whatever. And also it's kind of like, is this just what I should expect that because I, because again, it's like I am like running around at like I remember,

there's like only they're only allowed like I think it's like five people in a room at a time and so I'm so exact you have to like just for camera it's hard to like and so and again

I'm not even thinking twice but I'm like over like I'm so exaggerated I'm so animated and it's like yes I can understand how people might look at me like what the hell is she on?

And I'm like galloping like a horse. So it's like I get it. And also it's like some personalities like click and some don't. Obviously like not everyone's going to like me. And again, like, which is it's like okay. But I feel like, especially with traders, I'll just say it. I feel like people are so concerned about like air time. making like a good, like saying a good sound bite or, and I'm not, like, I truly don't think before I speak.

And like, I couldn't take it at times because it was like, we had so much time where it's like the stop, start, stop, start. Stopping, meaning like, no talking about the game. Yeah. And now we have to go and record and go into reality. And it was like, reality would start and it would be like, I don't know. They called it reality. Reality. When you're on camera.

Hello fellow, fellow players. Like, this is reality. Now we're going into reality. So it would be like, Oh, no, you live! And I'm like, what? Who is this person? Right.

Like, are you just doing this for the bit? Where my brain doesn't understand that, where it's like, I don't, because I don't do that, but I also try to prepare myself that there's going to be a lot of people on here who are doing that and wanting like the like, look at me. it's just very, it's a strange, it's very different environment.

That's a lot. Do you think you would have, the fact that you were a traitor contributed to some of that alienation feeling or do you think that would have been there anyway? Oh, it would have been there anyway because it's like that whenever I go. Totally.

Fair enough. Which again, I don't. Except for here. Except for here. I don't, and that's a thing like, because people will be like, how are you able to just, like, be yourself and blah, blah, blah, and, like, because I've done it the other way. It's not worth it.

I would rather, and I've had many times that I'm lonely or that I feel like, wow, I have no one or like I get rejected or, but again, it's like, I play that tape in my head where it's like, what am I going to freaking do, change something about myself to make somebody like like me or, like, like, um, because even this situation on, uh, bedrought, it was like, what, like, I'm not going to like dim my sunshine and I cry a lot. And I am and we're not for everybody. And it's like, it's old like that's okay. But don't you like, I'm not going to change you. I am because like you think I'm annoying or no. And like I have so much like, yes,

you have to be okay with like sitting in the lonely being okay alone being okay being rejected and eventually it's like the right people they find like you you find each other because if you same with like I think about dating and it's like I scare a lot of people and the way I look at it in a great way the way I look at it though is like like that like I would much rather like just be my full self and connect with you and wow okay this is great and you can't always trust that the other person is being themselves. However, it's like, wow, shouldn't it just be a whole lot easier if like people could just come as they are and like acceptance and but again, we have that need to like be wanted and we don't want to be. And I have,

I think like mastered the art of like just being okay, being alone and being okay like being rejected. Does it hurt sometimes? Sure. But again, I always go back to that feeling of Carolyn, remember what it felt like to be around people where you aren't wanted or where you don't fit in, but you have to change yourself and think of how exhausting that is and how many meds you probably should have been on when you were doing that. I have so many, I feel like there's a thing I was thinking about in terms of, first of all, I feel like, I feel like you're also judging yourself, maybe, you know, I feel like you're talking about the strategy you've had. But you also have been put into a variety of situations,

like the situations you're talking about, whether it's, you know, survivor, the traders, you know, being at live events, the bed rotting jobs. You're being put in situations where like you have no choice but to interact with these people who feel like you're budding up again. So I would want to give you a little bit of like grace for that as well. But also like I do think like in real life when we find ourselves, you know, in these situations where people feel like, we're too much or we're so, is like,

I feel like sometimes they're like, you know, and especially in a reality show or a game, people are looking for ways to like, you know, other people for the purposes of a game. I feel like in real life where that happens is like, I think that like this idea that people feel like there are rules to society that people are ranking. And it's like there is some like homophobia,

transphobia, like stuff to all of this in terms of like when somebody sees someone like you Carolyn who is like so authentically being themselves. who were like, you know, there's a little bit of like, oh, that threatens me that you are like saying you could be like this in a way that I think people need to take some like introspection to themselves, I think. Wow, that's cool.

Oh, totally. So I agree. That's like the deep version. I agree 100%. It's so funny because I have like the flip side comment, which is that something that I'm taking away from everything you're saying, Carolyn, is how even when it's not like actually about sexuality, on Survivor, on traitors.

Like, when we hear from you, there's this message that also feels a very queer of like coming as you are being yourself, like not being accepted, but still like unapologetically being yourself. And that's kind of, I know what I'm sure you've heard before, but it's kind of iconic, Carolyn. Like you're, you know?

You have to be okay with not being like loved by everybody. Or like you have to be okay with being lonely. with with um just it's just so much more freeing and so i just i've done like i've been very like very many versions of me and i like this one the best it's just it's it's it's like the way it's lifted off um oh it's it's so much easier i guess like then to go out be something different and then or like the chameleon type people and i always tell people like Like this right here, like this is me in front of, you know, my parents or in front of, like, I'm the same person. Truly, like I don't have like a, hi, how are you?

Like, this is me. And again, just being okay with like, we're not for everybody. And it's just, it's scary, I think, because again, yes, with all the labels with the way that society is, it's like we should be this certain way. It's like, screw that. There's so much freedom in just being yourself. But again, be okay with like not everyone liking you or a lot of people not liking you or whatever. I have to.

Oh, go for it. Please, Abby, go for it. It feels like you're saying you're trading like other people not liking you for you liking yourself. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Thanks for putting words in me.

Yeah. Like, that's true. Like, yes. I can't even imagine. Just talking to people too, like the older we get, it's like, I cannot imagine being like whatever age and you're still. And I guess that's such a misconception, but I used to think that like with age meant like you are no longer an asshole or with age like you learn more about yourself. Not really. You can literally be like 50 and still be this people pleasing.

you don't like, wow. You get one life, you know? But some people are like, and it's like you can age and not ever like self-reflect, you can age and never make changes or be that person who's still kiss and bud and people-pleasing. It's like, you don't, I can't imagine. So, anyway.

But no, this is, there's so many people, I know that you have conversations with Carolyn, whether that's at events or otherwise or in DMs. But I'm curious as you talk about all this, is there a piece of advice you find yourself giving to people on how to get comfortable being by themselves or how to like own who they are? What do they call that?

I feel like this is like something now where people go out and like go get rejected therapy. I think it is rejection therapy, I believe. Yes. And accepting it. But again, what always comes back to me is the loneliness that I felt when I was in, when I'm in a room full of people

that don't love me, accept me for who I am. It's like, that is danger, danger, danger. So I just remind myself of that. And I, again, knowing what it feels like to be loved and accepted for me, it's like, wow, that's what we should aim for all the time. So it's sitting in in those uncomfortable moments of rejection, of like what's wrong with you, of, and just being like, okay, that's okay, because I don't want the other.

And the alternative is being around people and having to change who I am. That is like that can last for a couple. Like I can't do. Like my soul won't let me do that anymore. So it's just putting yourself out there. This didn't happen overnight. but I got to a place where it was like, I couldn't even fathom like changing anymore or being a chameleon or doing like I can't do it.

I like my body rejects it. But that comes with practice and that comes with being in a place where it feels so effing lonely to be the other. And the alternative, the alternative is way freaking scarier for me now. But it takes practice. It takes like I'm going to be okay being alone. I'm going to be, because I truly, with all of the experiences I've had,

it's like I sit in the pain and I deal with it and I process it and I learn from it and I don't just like distract myself with all the unhealthy shit I used to do. So it's just being okay, being alone, being okay, like, and telling myself, nothing is wrong with me

because I get rejected or people think I'm nuts or it doesn't mean that I need to go out and change because I'm never going to satisfy everybody, so I might change like, okay, I'm going to talk like this because I literally did use to try to change my voice. You think that helped? No.

Or like the tears, or why do you cry so much? Or why do you? Because I held it in for too long. So it's like all of this is like, of years of like hating myself. I'm not going to go and try to love myself or change myself for you anymore. I am proud of me.

myself. And again, if it's just me and my dog, we're like, that's why. Carolyn, that's so beautiful. I have to wave my pride flag here. Waving my flag. But, like, all because it is Pride Month, where the Pride is spoken. Like, and everything you're saying, I think also speaks to the experience of a lot of people. And then Pride Month comes around. And I think for, for many of us, it can be this moment where we are more seen or more accepted whether it's, yes, and then yet, alone inside or whether that's at parades and everything else. Like what is Pride, like, Pride Month, like for you? Pride Month is putting as many flags as I can outside,

but actually I do that year-round. And I shouldn't, you know, people will be like, don't, or even like with the stuff that I've been posting, especially like all my ice stuff or all, not. Yeah, that was all amazing. If you haven't seen some of Carolyn's content from Minneapolis, that was amazing. How are you not like

And then I'm like We still like By now what are all these Republicans Doing following me? I was shocked I was like by this point Don't what the hell Or even like

I read a comment recently Where someone was saying like Um So like Or why do you feel the need to talk? Oh God And I'm done like educating and like And I just like I would post the word

Because it was I couldn't sleep During like the It was the only time I felt like any sort of peace is when I was out in protesting or at Whipple or doing something and being actively involved in helping in some way. And it's just the whole thing like with pride, it's like, what is wrong with being? And I already went like, I've Googled it. I've researched it. Some people like, the beliefs are very hard to change and yada yada. And so people will be like, well, why do you even post about it? Because it's important for people to know and have a safe place

and know that it is safe here and know that like you aren't alone it's just like with being an addict or being um coming from an abusive relationship anything like anything you go through and you share you form that connection with other people who may feel like they're alone so you know what yes i will be loud about it yes i will talk about like what the hell like and again it's i can't even wrap my brain around why people give us shit why do you get like why do you get like Why? Why do you care what other people are doing or who they're loving, who they're, I'll never understand it. I just won't and I've tried to and I don't need to at this point. But no, I'm not trying to change the effing minds of everyone who come. You're just pissing people off or, no, I'm creating a safe space. I am not going to be quiet. I can't imagine not saying anything about this. I say Oh, okay, sorry, I'll shut up up, but like, yes, it's supporting there's so many activities,

especially here in Minneapolis, like, there's rollers, I think it's either they're doing it twice, but it's like a roller skating night. No. All that shit, it's like, go be a part of it. I love it. Yeah, back to one of it being a lot, I think you're talking about like maybe romance,

but like there's a ton of places out that, you know, that like groups, communities, things that people can go and find it. It's so much cool. stuff out there. There's so... All right. You're waiting for you. Roller skating. There's like... And that's the thing too.

Like, because people... I'll go to stuff alone. I don't give a shit. And like, I walk, like, for everybody out there who's like, maybe a little nervous or think... I go to plenty of things alone. I also go to stuff alone. There's some redig, online, and the people are like so nervous. I did not realize it was such...

There was such a stigma about... I go to the movies alone. I go to restaurants alone. Like, go do stuff by yourself. It's like, like, I mean, not if you don't want to, but also, like, You can do it. Nobody's judging you. Nobody's looking at you. Nobody gives a shit.

And especially pride events, like so many people go along to meet other people. You know, like I think there's such a thing that like, especially if you're newer to the community that like you look at everyone and think everybody already has it all figured out. Everybody already has their friends. And it's so not true.

So many people go to these things to find people. None of us. None of us have it figured out. No one. So I always encourage people like go to this. So pride it like get your ass out there and don't feel like, you know, I don't have anyone to go with, or I usually don't either. I do a lot of crap alone, and I'm okay with it.

I'm not waiting around because that's a thing. Like, I'm not going to wait around. I'm going to go. Oh, I see this. I'm going to go to it. There's probably something so catered to your own personal. If you're listening to this and like, if you're into board games, there's probably a board game queer thing.

There's roller skating. There's probably something so niche to your address. And if you're going alone to it and you're nervous, just think I'm not going alone. I'm going with Carolyn and Matt and Grady. told me it's okay. I'm not me. Oh, sorry, and me.

And me. Sorry. I'm not too. I'm too. I was busy that day. No, I had something else to do. No,

I would go too. All right. Get out there. Be a part of it. Be part of it. Because when you're with other people, it just, it just helps.

And there's the acceptance piece and feeling safe and like, I love it. Like, can I say one thing? I also, I'm a person who is very much, I'm alone a lot.

I live alone. I, you know, that's like, what my life is. I really actually, I do love it. I go to the movies, I do a step alone. I'm such an extrovert

and also I just want to be by myself, with my dog, Carolyn as well. That's my life. I also do, there are times where like, you know, is it 100% by,

like, not all, you know, it wasn't always that way. So the other thing I would say is like, as I was listening to you, I was like, I do wish I had more people in my life

who would like, you know, send me, shoot me a message or do it. You know, like, the, like, if you know somebody who I think is, like, can be a person who is one of these people who, like, yeah, I'm like, I've learned how to be happy alone and I'm very happy to be alone, but also, like, you know, I could see the benefit of, like, you know, reaching out to your friend to let them know you love them, you know, especially.

Yes. You know? Yeah. 100%. Like, like, I'm not letting, like, okay, if I have no one to go with, I'm still going to go. It's not going to stop me. But, like, we have feelings too. Yeah.

Yeah. Another thing on this topic, just the thing I was thinking of is like, sometimes the thing to do to actually feel less alone is to actually proactively help other people and like have that role, even if you don't have it all figured out yourself, right? So like volunteering at any sort of queer organization,

anything, like for your local pride thing, they probably need volunteers to do stuff like give out water. Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to have a role. Oh, 100%. I completely agree. with that. I love that. Look, Carolyn, we could have you here

forever. I mean, look, one question we do love to ask, anything you want to say to your queer fans who are listening? I'm sure they're tuning in. I'm single. I think it's the first time we've ever had that, which is quite amazing.

That is, yes. People will say this to me. It's just, again, I've never been, like, I don't read my DMs enough because I get overwhelmed and I'm just want to like I can't stop and then I'm pretty soon it's like yeah anyway but um people will be like have you met any like I'm meeting shit no one and I feel like no one really like unless I'm missing it

I don't ever get hit on I don't and maybe because I don't like well no I've kind of um started this thing where like as I get so overwhelmed we all leaned in what what we all leaned I'll wear sunglasses and I'll have my headphones on because I get so like again, sometimes they just want to go in and out of places like anyways. I don't like people just don't approach me like that ever. It's mainly like, oh, Carolyn and I love you from this. But like I'm not getting hit on ever. I was like, I asked someone recently, I'm like, why don't I ever get hit on?

Hey, I don't want to, I don't want to speak, but that Jam Jam, I think he's been flirting for a little while. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah, I think that's what's been happening. The chemistry between the two of you is off the turn. I tried. He is my safe place.

Truly, and if we could have, that shit went to have gone down on whatever freaking season that was that, like that cycle path was on who was touching people. Like, I, because when the cameras weren't around, I was like, hold me like a baby, but then we needed

like since cold and whatever, but like I jump on him. I like, I love him. I do. Like he's my safe space. Yeah. But he's married. You're out there and you want to respectfully hit on Carolyn.

Yeah. It's open for business. It's the open season as we've learned. The open era. The open era. Sorry. I stepped on my name. But don't come expecting Carolyn to be someone who she's not.

That's right. That's right. And I'm like, I got a lot. Don't get on too much too soon. Like, you know, respect Carolyn's boundaries that she's trying to set up.

I don't know if any I don't anyone, like I just don't like I don't get. Next year, Pride has spoken. We're talking about Carolyn's love story with a Oh yeah. We can do a dating show and everything. We'll work on it, Carolyn. Yeah, please do.

Like, is this weird right now kind of? No. No, not for us. If anybody's ever seen, there's a version of The Bachelor or the Game Changer, the show game job on Dropout. Oh, I love it. They did a bisexual bachelorette, and it's my favorite thing ever. I might have to just have to do that for Carolyn. Please do.

Please. So, no, thank you. Sorry, Derek. Shout to Jerry, by the way. This is awesome. Carolyn, again, we'd love to have you here for any, like, closing words for anything else you just want to say. We could say, like, we're here for anything. And I'm like, I'm going to be, okay.

Just, like, be kind of yourself. Pay attention to the words that you say to yourself. I think that we can say just like, just so many things that can like start our day where we just go downhill or we start our day. And it's like, just be caught. Pay attention to the things that you say to yourself. When you wake up, when you look in the mirror,

when you, all of that is so important. Because I always say like we did not, we weren't born hating ourselves. We weren't born with these bad thoughts in our head or that we're daft up or we're different or we're weirdos or and truly it wasn't until like people started pointing out everything about me that was like that I was like what do you mean what's wrong with me? I didn't know and so it's like I had it took a lot of years but like I had to go back to like you know I'm going to be kinder to myself and it's going to start with what I say to myself.

So I get an uncomfortable feeling now if I say like if I say something bad to myself internally it's like, oh, that feels uncomfortable because for a while, it felt normal and it doesn't feel normal anymore if I talk shit about myself. So just be nice to yourself. That's beautiful. That's perfect.

And you know what, Carolyn, like, this is the end of our episode. We have a tradition as we end our episode. We like to tell people like buy iron merch, all the other fun things, blah, blah, blah. Subscribe to Carolyn's Patreon, all the things. But we always attempt to say the pride has spoken together at the end. Could we all do that?

Can we try? But is there anything specific you want to plug there? Yes, please plugs before we do that. Not really. I mean, and even my, like, I need to like my Patreon. I need to like, it's been dry. And, um, it happens.

Yeah, because I, no one's in the DMs. I like, it's, sorry. Why? No one. It's okay. No. I'm right.

I'm like, no, it's on. me. Okay. I don't need. Honestly, if it happened, I'd be like, get away from me. So what I'm,

I'll be that type will complain no matter what. So anyway, what was I saying? Oh, I got that crazy ass bed rot shit comment or something. You could say that.

It's, and I will say this. There's the survivor, I felt like, um, there were times where I truly felt like, They're not going to have enough footage to, like, edit this fun because we were doing nothing and we just had no energy and we're so boring I felt at times.

100% like no energy, dragging Zangorans. Traders, I was like, these people are so performative that like I ain't buying it. Are these actors? And this was like such a mix of like, there were so many times where I was like in the bed, looking around. around and I'm like, this is the craziest shit like I've ever seen. And it wasn't the performance. It was some. But it was just crazy. So I'm excited to watch it. I did not hold back. Amazing. Wow. What a promo for the show. But like honestly, yeah, that's insane. And being in a bed, what? How can one watch it? YouTube? All right. Yes. So,

it's on YouTube. I don't know the date and apparently they're just like it was supposed to be today. It was. Anyway, but it's coming soon. Coming soon. Next week sometime I'm thinking but I'm nervous too. Like don't, then I'm like, whatever.

Like, but it's basically the same old shit. I cry a lot. Like, you're also doing in Charlotte, you're doing celebrity trader slash mafia. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a thing that's happened. That's going to be and then there's something else. I don't know when they're going to, um, I don't know.

I can't really say that yet. But what a tease? It'll be fun. I'm excited for that to, yeah. Okay. Well, that's exciting. Thank you. Thank you, Carolyn.

Thank you so much. And on the count of three, on the count of three, we're going to say the pride is spoken, okay? One, two, three. The prize has spoken. Woo!