RHAP: We Know Survivor - The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 24: Sage Ahrens-Nichols

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

The Pride Has Spoken | Episode 24: Sage Ahrens-Nichols For the season 5 finale of The Pride Has Spoken, Grace Leeder (she/her), Matt Scott (he/him), and Dr. Evvie Jagoda (they/them) are celebrating the queer Survivor community in a big way. This episode features listener stories, updates from some incredible LGBTQIA+ organizations, a reminder about this year’s Pride merch, and a heartfelt conversation with Survivor 49’s Sage Ahrens-Nichols (she/they). Sage joins them to talk about identity, queerness, curiosity, and the relief that can come with finding language for who you are. They share about being themselves in an environment as intense as Survivor, the importance of not making assumptions about other people, and how asking thoughtful, respectful questions can make space for people to feel seen. It is a conversation about authenticity, courage, and the ways honesty can make it easier for someone else to be honest, too. They share messages from listeners responding to this season’s question: What does being LGBTQ+ in the Survivor community mean to you? The answers are funny, emotional, personal, and full of gratitude for the people who have made this community feel like home. As Pride Month comes to a close, the conversation is also a reminder that queer community, care, and celebration matter all year long. 0:00 – Start 1:40 – Rainbow Road2:33 – Ten Oaks Project6:30 – Tez Vlamis, Australian Survivor7:31 – Kim8:31 – Thunderkatz9:28 – Jay10:29 – Interview with Sage begins1:16:55 – Will, Underground Games1:17:55 – Dru Tevis, Food Network1:18:55 – Elliott1:19:56 – Mikaël We want YOU to share your story: What has being LGBTQ+ in the Survivor community meant to you? Please submit your video or audio response by Sunday, June 21st for a chance to be included in an upcoming episode of The Pride Has Spoken. Submit your story here: bit.ly/tphs2026 They also discuss this year’s Pride merch campaign. Profits from merch sales will go toward three LGBTQIA+ charities chosen by the hosts: Rainbow Railroadhttps://www.rainbowrailroad.org/Ten Oaks Projecthttps://www.tenoaksproject.org/Sisters PGHhttps://www.sisterspgh.org/You can find The Pride Has Spoken merch at:http://robhasawebsite.com/storeThe hosts also highlight several other charities and organizations that listeners suggested, including: Our Spot KCLambert HouseKindling CollectiveAli Forney CenterBranching Out AdventuresNAGLY, the North Shore Alliance of LGBTQ+ YouthLGBTQ+ OutdoorsBAGLYQueer History ProjectHITOPS PrincetonZebra YouthOut & EqualSMYALThe Okra ProjectTrinity Place ShelterUs Helping Us Use #ThePrideHasSpoken and share your love for this week’s guest, or to share your love for the podcast or a queer Survivor player or moment. Order a #ThePrideHasSpoken buff, t-shirt, mug, or more at robhasawebsite.com/store. Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to The Pride Has Spoken podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

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Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. Welcome back to the season finale of the Pride is Spoken, Season 5 finale.

Grace leader. I use she, her pronouns. We're going to go around the horn, introduce ourselves. Yeah, I'm Matt Scott. I use he, him pronouns and Evie. And I'm Evie. Evie Geotah. I use day them pronouns. I was a contestant on Survivor season 41. Every year, June goes by so quick. How are we already in July? How is Pride month over? Well, it's not, it's never over in our hearts. It's over on the calendar. That is true. But you can have Pride, lowercase pride all year round. Yeah. Yeah, we're like Pride is bursting at the seam.

So we're like extending it in July, which is the same as this episode, which is like an action-packed full to the brim extra finale extravaganza. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have a lot going on. We have clips that you'll hear throughout the episode

from listeners of the Pride is spoken and from the community of what this show means to them. We ask the question, what does being LGBTQ plus in the Survivor community mean to you and had some really heartwarming, amazing answers. Thank you for being part of the community. Yeah. And maybe before we get to our lovely interview, which folks have seen is the lovely

sage and the clips from Vokes, I quickly, we had reached out to the organizations that we are supporting this month with the merch drop to submit some clips. And we heard back from two of them. So we have a special clip from Rainbow Railroad and from Project 10 Oaks. And we'd like to take an opportunity for the organizations to talk about what their work is about and why supporting them is meaningful. So we'll do that now. Right now, Rainbow Railroad receives a request for help every 26 minutes from LGBTQI plus people all over the world who are at risk because of hate, violence, and persecution. Over 60 countries continue to criminalize or community.

And Rainbow Railroad responds by relocating people out of danger, supporting with housing, and shelter, healthcare and intervening when there is a crisis. This work is only possible because of community solidarity. And I want to shout out the Pride Has Spoken podcast and all of your listeners for supporting the work that Rainbow Railroad does every day to get at-risk LGBTQI plus people to safety. Thank you so much and happy Pride. Thank you so much to the Pride has spoken team. every single listener who tunes in. My name is Kimani and I am the executive director of the

Ten Oaks Project. We are a grassroots charity based in Ottawa, Canada that provides life-saving programs and services to children, youth, and families from queer identities and communities. We are most known for our summer camp, Camp Ten Oaks, an overnight camp for children and youth ages 8 to 17, who are part of the 2SLGQ Plus community or have a parent who is part of the community. While most people know us for our camps, we also provide vital monthly year-round programs, both virtually and in person to children, youth, and families. Funds raised from listeners like you will go towards making camp more financially accessible for families who need it, providing meals to families who participate in our weekly evening programs, and supporting

our free gender care program, which provides trans and queer folks, which gender affirming care every single week. Throughout all of our programs, our small but mighty team supports over 500 children and families every single year. As a grassroots charity, our work is not possible without supporters like you. Thank you immensely for ensuring that children, youth, and families from two S-LGBQ plus communities have access to life-saving resources. Oh, so lovely. Thank you so much to the folks who sent in the clips. It means a lot. I love it this project is not just to celebrate queer survivor players and queer survivor fans and all of that wonderful stuff, but also to like do some meaningfully cool stuff, sending people to camp,

make sure people have safe homes and resources that they need. And also shout-out sisters, PGH, who we're also supporting this month. So super cool. And it's not too late to get merch. So head to the Rhab store.com slash store or slash merch. Yes, we have the mugs. I have a mug right here. I was wearing the shirt. I know the logo's on both sides of the mug. Look at that. I also have the shirt. And we have the buffs.

Buffs are available. So check it out. Wear your merch year round. I especially love when people wear their merch at these different community events. Because it definitely signals that you're part of the community or that you're an ally and a supporter. And of course, it supports a great cause. So. I'm a lot of getting photo on social media.

Oh, yeah. I got the merch. I'm wearing my buff. I'm wearing my shirt. It's so lovely. Yeah. I literally got a. suggested person on Facebook that was wearing a pride of spoken buff on their head.

I'm like, I don't know you, but I'm adding you because we should know each other. Exactly. So awesome times. Yes, but we have the conversation coming up with Sage. Evie and I had that conversation. And Evie, I mean, this was, I wouldn't call it a coming out, but this was Sage's first time talking about being queer in any public way. so kind of a coming out.

Yes. After we stopped recording, Sage was like, by the way, I don't know if I've really ever talked about that publicly, so I guess that was me coming out. So we did it.

Every year, we do it. Every year. We got one. So that's true. Yeah. Definitely, they have already been out

in their life in a lot of various ways. But first record a conversation about it. So that's always fun. That's, we're the place for that. So, and 27,

if you're thinking about, just hold off. No, just kidding. Just getting. Wait a whole year to come out. Come out whatever you would like and when it's said to do so and you feel comfortable doing so. But also up for next.

And then DM us. Yes, and then DM us. But without further ado, oh, I guess you're going to hear a few clips from the community about what this community and being queer and it means to them. But you'll hear a few of those clips. And then we'll get to our conversation with Sage. Hey, the pride is spoken. It's Tess Blamas from a Australian Survivor Redemption. and thank you so much for asking me this question.

I've been watching Survivor since I was six years old and in a lot of ways of grown up alongside the show. What I never expected when I started watching as a kid was that it would eventually lead me to some of the most important friendships I have in my life. Being part of the LGBTQ plus community in Survivor has been incredible because there's so, so, so many queer people woven throughout the fandom.

On Twitter, events, group chats, etc., I found my community that, feels like home and something that feels like I've never had to hide myself through. For me, it's always being bigger than reality TV. Honestly, the community is where I've been able to find myself, where I've met people with shared experiences, and where being queer has never felt like something that has set me apart, more so it's set me in. It's been one of the things that helped me connect with other LGBTQ people, and I've

absolutely loved it. Hi, this is Kim in Central California. I am into Survivor only because of my girlfriend because we got together a little bit before the pandemic. And she revealed to me that she was into it. So of course, then I had to get into it. And I really fell in love with it. And it's so funny, I ended up leapfrogging her and started to get into the Rhab community. And yada, yada, we are now going to beach drops. And Rhab in-person events. and doing brackets and debating stories and gaming out things. And it's been amazing. And yeah, the old queer stories are wild. But I just love that there's been this beautiful arc of acceptance and representation over the years.

And Survivor has brought me and my gal together. Just love it. Hi, my name is Kathy, also known as Thundercats. I'm a New Yorkan genderqueer lesbian. and I've always believed that navigating life as a queer person is essentially a social strategy game since we have to contend with the social constructs around gender and sexuality that were built for us.

So in essence, being queer in and of itself is very survivory. And Survivor is so queer-coded. Fire plus an island, hello, getting purpled. We love lavender. Swap screwed? Come on. But in all seriousness, finding queer peers and allies within the Survivor community has been life-changing for me.

I spent most of my career creating safe spaces for LGBT folks in communities and schools, and I didn't realize how much I needed community for myself. And RHAP has given me that and so much more. The power of our shared desire to connect, that incomparable spark when our eyes light up when we find our people, that shared power makes all of us stronger. Hey, I'm Jay. I use they-them pronouns, and I'm a day one survivor fan. From the very beginning, Survivor has been a show about,

telling the story of who we are when both nobody and everybody is watching. How do we portray at our core who we are, who we want to be, and the kind of person that can win other people over while still being who we are at our core? That, to me, is the essence of being queer, being able to code switch when you're with your tribe versus in a confessional, being able to navigate making other people like you while also finding a way to be true to who. you are. The survivor community has allowed me to flourish and become the best version of myself to embrace my non-binary identity as well as make friends with people with backgrounds that are similar and wildly different for mine. I'm so glad to be a part of the queer LGBT survivor

community. We are delighted to welcome to The Pride has spoken, the one, the only sage from Survivor 49. Thank you so much for being here, Sage. Thank you so much for having me. We're delighted to be here. For those of us for those of you that are audio only, Sage, what pronouns are you using these days? I use she or they pronouns. Thank you for asking. Nice. No problem. Yeah. Thank you for being here. It feels like it feels good to have you here. This is our season finale for the pride has spoken. No pressure. It's all good. But you're used to finale. So I feel like this is a comfortable. spot for you at least, hopefully. But I want to ask, like, how was your Pride Month?

Like, we like to ask people about their Pride Month overall, but how was yours? Very boring. So, I've gone to a couple of Pride events in the past. I mentioned this on Survivor. I really struggle with big crowds. Like, if you ever see me in a setting with a lot of people, I'm on a wall or in a corner. And then this month in particular, I'm in an era of really trying to embrace and enjoy the now.

So I've been home even more than I normally am working on my yard. So it was a peaceful pride month is what I will say. Nice. That's exciting. Okay, indulge me. What do we got going on in the yard? I was going to ask you. Fours, veggies, yeah.

Oh, no, I've got to be extra. So I'm working on carving out trails in like this section that has a lot of ferns. Whoa. I have this whole vision. So we have a couple acres in the immediate vicinity trying to like carve out trails in the overgrown. I want got a shit ton of solar lights. That's my thing right now. So just all over the yard, just these little solar lights.

I want to get, I don't play basketball, but I really want a basketball hoop. And thus like a little basketball mini court of some sort. A pickleball court would be cool. Wow. Oh my gosh. random stuff. Yeah, bonfire pit. Oh my God. Love that. Wow. That's like literally my dream come true to be able to do like scheme that way. That's so fun. I mean, to have that space. And it is cool. It sounds like it also, I mean, it sounds like you kind of have your own little oasis in the midst of, I mean, the world's the world is a lot. It's just like I literally live in Washington, D.C. But like in the city, I hear cars from the street as we're speaking. So, I hope that your little oasis comes to, I mean, just because I'm curious now and we're falling down that rabbit hole. Like, what sparked the idea for that?

Well, so I grew up in North Carolina and it's like a really small country town. So like I'm and my partner grew up in like a very rural part of Washington state. And we're both just used to like outdoor life. So I have a twin brother. I have two older siblings too. Like we were always outside growing up. And at my mom's house and my dad's house. My dad had a really cool, like, woods that you would go explore.

We had a tree house. We just had so many outdoor activities. And that was my happy place. And I'm like, I just want that property that has got so much shit to do outside. And you could be inside too. But, like, I just want, I want activities. So, yeah, I think I'm trying to bring, like, a little bit of the happy moments of childhood to the now. I love that.

I love that. Yeah. And I feel like it's nice to be able to take, yeah, like, happy memories from now. I feel like a lot of times I'm thinking about, yeah, like, redoing childhood memories, but, you know, like doing them again with your current self and with, you know, now you're an adult and you're able to make those decisions for yourself and also to be able to take a piece of your childhood that you loved and recreate it in your adult life. That's really freaking cool. Yes. And my twin just, uh, he has a newborn who's under a year. And, and, I'm like, you're going to come over here all the time. I'm looking up like play sets that are, I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, but like you use the outdoors to make the play set rather than bring the plastic play set in.

So just trying to have like the ultimate place from a little nephew. So sweet. Oh my gosh. That's so beautiful. And it's like, yeah, it's so funny. We never know where these conversations will go. But I feel like there's something about like joy, nostalgia, embracing joy, because I do think a lot of people,

whether it's related to like the theme of our podcast of like queerness or otherwise, like a lot of people even feel guilty to find that joy. So it's nice to hear that you're like embracing that a bit along the way, which brings me to a question because you're on the pride has spoken. You know, we were like, oh, sage is phenomenal. Like sage is fantastic. Sage identifies as queer. we don't want to tell you how you identify.

We want to know like what, what do you find, Evie, you always say this, so it's weird for you to say. But like what do you feels like the right identifier for you? Like is queer the term? Is there another term that you use at this point? Oh, thank you so much for asking. Like it really, it does go a long way to ask the question rather than just assume because usually the assumptions are,

I'm sure as in y'all's experience. Not right. Not anywhere close. I personally prefer the overarching term of queer because when it comes to like my sexuality and my gender identity, it is very fluid. It is something that I'm still understanding myself. So it's hard to like articulate it to people in like a nice packaged term bow. But I've really appreciated that term queer because it allows me to like embrace that part of myself without having to fully like. shove myself in a particular box. Yeah, I really relate with that.

I feel like that. Like, yeah. So, I mean, not, sometimes a more specific label can be extremely meaningful, but a lot of the time, I feel like people spend a lot of time in their coming out journey, whether it's gender, whether it's sexuality, being like,

but what am I? And, you know, like, what specific thing am I? And there's so much annoying discourse sometimes about like, no, that is sapphic, not lesbian, not like, literally these are all words, all human categories are arbitrary, essentially. And so who are, like,

to be able to just say enough that people understand where you're coming from where you get to understand yourself, but then have space for that to be, yeah, as fluid as you wanted to be, makes a lot of sense to me and resonates with me. And if you use a different word, if you use something more specific, that's also great too.

But I think a lot of people feel that way. that's why it's like just so important. Just ask the question, you know? Like you're going to get an answer either way. And then that answer can inform how you proceed in terms of like mutual respect. But yeah, there's nothing. Like if you have a label that fits perfectly and that just, oh, it feels right. I'm so stoked for you.

And it's nice to have the option to not have to like full send on something. Yeah. That feels so beautiful though to like have that. to understand yourself enough and then also have the language to communicate that to others. And something I think that's interesting when it comes to your journey, you mentioned this, but like growing up in a small town, I'm so curious what your journey has been with those identities along the way, you know, as a queer person, as a non-binary person or, you know, like what has that journey been?

Because I do think there's a lot of stereotypes when it comes to small town in the south. But, you know, like you said, the theme of this conversation is it's your story to tell. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I got to find the best place to start. Well, first of all, yeah, growing up in a like small country town,

I will say the town I grew up in definitely a lot of like traditional, primarily traditional beliefs in stereotypes and there was queer representation in terms of like cis men. Like it was, I grew up in a day and age where it was becoming normal to see men who were gay versus like the only women representations that I had were very overly sexualized. So I didn't really, at a young age, I, in middle school was like when I started getting I should say this.

I've struggled with attraction. I did not experience attraction in the same way that was shown to me or depicted to me or that I was told what I was supposed to. So I wasn't really interested in dating. I tried it because everyone else is and I'm like, all right, this is what I'm supposed to do, but I never understood it.

I didn't have what I know now to be like the same types of feelings that people had. Like regardless of gender identity, I just, I did not feel attracted to people. people. But everything I was given was like, I don't know, everything's like framed around that of like, you got to find her husband and settle down and have some kids to the point where I can't remember what age. I want to say it was elementary school. I went through this period of time where like I was very sad to be a woman. Like I did not want to be a woman. I thought that meant I wanted

to be a man at that point. But I dreaded the idea of growing up and be. And, becoming a woman that would have to like follow all the things that were shown to me. I will say I have two parents who did not grow up in the South. My dad grew up in Cali. My mom grew up in Jersey. That was a huge buffer between like stepping outside their houses to that town to like coming back home. I never, something I've like really grown to appreciate is my parents, sorry, my dogs are whining. My parents never, they never told me who.

I had to be ever. Like, they always gave me permission to explore. I did the most random shit growing up. I went to chess camp, dirt bike camp, race camp, Girl Scout camp, Boy Scout camp. Like, I got to do whatever I wanted to do, and it was encouraged. And I think that is what really helped me to ultimately, like, come to this realization later on in life of like, oh, yeah,

with the help of a very dear friend named Jesse, to realize, like, to lean in with a little bit more curiosity of like, who am I? Like, what does that mean? Not just with like gender or sexuality, but like just broadly speaking, like, who the fuck am I? Mm-hmm. Wow, that's amazing. And it's like, it's just interesting to hear like how even just having the chance to explore and like even try things out. I know you're talking about this in terms of like going to much of these different camps and doing these different activities. But like it's so, I don't know, I think it's easy to overlook how important that And I have two adorable nephews who are three and seven.

And I just think about that of like them having the options in life to figure out who they are rather than being boxed in to something. And so that's like beautiful and hopeful. And I kind of want to cry a little bit right now. Did we cry? We could cry. We'll cry at some point together. Yes. Wait, I'm dying to know more about your friend Jesse.

and who they are in the role. Thanks for asking. I also have a very weird light of it in. The sun has decided to come out. You're going. Okay. So a little bit of preface leading up to Jesse. When I was in middle school,

I started experiencing crushes here very occasionally. And the first person that I remember vividly like having a crush on. Her name was, I think, Jessica. And again, no, I did know it was okay. I had no idea how to even like broach that with her until one day we ended up in a closet with hide-and-seek, a high-and-seek match. A literal closet.

A literal closet. It was a very big closet, but a literal closet nonetheless. And experienced my first ever makeout session. And that was really, it was so, I remember. remember like not knowing how to feel. I was very excited, but also like, did I just do something wrong? Because you don't, you don't know. Like, as a kid, you just don't know.

Like, you really rely on the examples around you. So anyways, fast forward to, like, throughout middle school, high school. Wait, was that, like a one-off thing with that person? Yeah, we never talked about it again. We never did it again. I don't even know if we, like, hung out again after that. But it was still, I really appreciated it. Because to have that feeling and to not know, like, is this reciprocated?

Is this okay? Am I disgusting? Like, is this going to make this person hate me? Like, what will this lead to? And to have, like, this nonverbal, just, what do you call? Like, is symbiotic the right word? Like, just this, like, moment where it's like, oh, you feel it too? Like, I would have had no idea.

So that was a really cool moment that I appreciate a lot. I have no idea what she's up to in now life. Shout out, Jessica. shout on Jessica, thank you. But no, she was really cute. But yeah, and so then, you know, after that, I really did not. The only people that I would date throughout high school would occasionally, I would try to date a dude.

It would last like a week or so. And again, only because I thought I had to. No one literally explained to me like, you don't have to. But in my mind, I'm like relationships. And I really, as much as I didn't accept. experience attraction, I really experienced like non-attraction. Like I would just feel icky being with people. Um, uh, now, like, fast forward. Now I understand that to be like, for me to experience physical attraction, it definitely has to have like the emotional,

the intellect. Like, it has to be so much more before I can, like, physical attracting does nothing for me. Like, I don't, I can acknowledge if somebody looks attractive, um, that doesn't mean that I am like physically attracted to them. But that's all, it's the only thing that we're given. It's like, oh,

who do you think so and so is cute? And it's like, but what if I do? Then what? What does that mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And there's like so much trope, I feel like given to people that grow up as girls of like, of like you're supposed to date guys, but also guys kind of suck. Like, you know what I mean? Like that messaging is also makes it really hard to figure out like,

am I, am I feeling the right? thing. You know what I mean? Like, I guess this is just the thing that everyone feels where you're like, you're supposed to, but also I roll at your husband. You know what I mean? Like the narratives are so make it so confusing to tease out what, you know, what straight people are feeling, you know? So confusing. And in fact, to the point where I would experience like both extremes, where I would feel nothing or I don't know if y'all are familiar with the term like limerence. Yeah. I would experience. So limerence, Evie, it's, it can be, there's a lot of things.

Thanks. Oh, honey. There's a lot of things that can cause it. So, like, knowing now some of the contributors, I think what probably led to experience of limerence for me was I developed clinical OCD very young. So there is a lot of, like, obsessive components with it. Dopamine deficit, which is very in line with ADHD. And then, like, identity confusion can also be, like, a source of it.

So it feels obsessive. It feels very extreme. And it's like this, in relation to the identity piece, it's like this need for like acceptance or like to be like wanted by the other person as like validation of worthiness. So it would just be like to a point where it was uncomfortable. It was like, oh my gosh. Like if I would find a, I think they call it like a limerent object or whatever, the person that you are feeling limerence towards. It would just, I mean, Matt, it sounds like you know what I'm talking about. Yeah.

It's extreme. Do you have any experience or you don't have to go about it? No, absolutely. It's so interesting. I feel like this year especially, like I've learned more about it. In the last couple of years, I've, like, through a comedian that I, that I had listened to their podcast, like, they were talking so much about ADHD, but then like, AudiHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder.

And then Limerance came up out of that. And it's so interesting because, like, I definitely identify as someone who's like somewhat neuro, I'll say neuro spicy in some way, shape, or form. But like limerance is definitely something that I feel like I've experienced from. Like, oh, wait, it wasn't normal to just like have crushes on like your friends when you're growing up like or like develop that connection. And so yeah, it's, it's really interesting because I feel like it's, I don't know, it's interesting because when you experience that and you could speak to this, I'm sure, Sage,

like it's very different than someone who doesn't experience that and has romantic connections or feelings and the like. And so plus I just have to say, I appreciate the clinical perspective you're bringing. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, well, it's, and the most devastating part about limerence is that it's involuntary.

So like you have this extreme, again, it's not attraction. It's like a level of obsession of another person. And you don't have, you don't feel like you have a say in it. And it comes out of nowhere. It doesn't really make sense. But again, when you put that to like a developing mind that doesn't, one, know what's going on. Two is trying to figure out, okay, I'm supposed to like, not just other people. I'm supposed to like men specifically.

And how do I know if I like it? Like, how? How? If I don't experience what is attraction, then you almost have to manufacture and then Q Limerin. So, yeah. So, oh, shit, where was I going with that? So fast forward to graduating from high school,

finally starting to, like, I joined the military, which is not like a source of pride by any means, but I wanted to go to college and didn't know any other way. And then, you know, I started trying to dating apps, meeting up with people. And I privately switched my, or put in the dating preference. like both like all genders and sort of privately dating women had some great experiences but again

it didn't feel like an option and I remember going on a date with one woman and she I think she asked the question of like yeah so like when did you realize that you like were gay or like what did you it was either that or like when did you come out to your family and I felt so like I didn't know what to say because I'm like I don't even know if I'm allowed to claim that like I don't this is like before back then you had gay lesbian bisexual exactly that's all that was your options and none of that felt none of us felt or straight too enough it felt right for me I guess I guess I forgot about that one

yeah I felt so guilty because I'm like yeah am I a fraud like and I still do this day have imposter syndrome which brings me to Jesse yes so first of all just Jesse just Jesse has changed my life in so many ways and they would never I've said this to them probably like a thousand times and they are just the type of person that is so humble

that I don't think that they would ever fully be able to accept how much weight that holds for me when I say that. I'm like no Jesse I don't think you understand if I had not met you my life and so beyond like gender beyond sexuality would be so I probably would not be talking to you all quite frankly.

And so I applied for grad school. I went to UW Tacoma for their social work master's program. And it's like a cohort model. So Jesse was in my cohort. And we just, I don't know, like, I don't even know how it started. I have to ask them. But like, we started like interacting with one another. And to the point where we would study and then we started hanging out because we lived in the same town at the time. and we went out one night to the bars.

And I don't know. They brought it up in such a respectful and curious way. But they said something like, yeah, me and so and so were talking. And this is before, like, I was identifying a straight. I didn't think I had any other option. They were like, yeah, me and so and so we're talking.

And we're like, I don't know. Is it straight? And them saying that was one of the, if not the first time, I felt fucking seen. I was like, I don't think I'm allowed to claim. My first thought was like, oh, like, that's really cool that you're questioning that. And I don't, I'm not allowed to claim that. Like, that's, I'm in a hetero relationship. Like, so I've had experiences, but like, you know, technically no.

Yeah. Which also, can we just know How old are you at this time? Like in your 20s? This was, I was 20, I think, 2021. So that was what, five years, five, six years? So like mid to early, late early 20s. Okay.

Yeah. And you got to that age and basically no one had actually asked you, are you straight? No. But how many times in your life had people just assumed you were? And that's the thing. And of what we were getting at before of like, if you don't even, yeah,

Like you can even, even if you know options are exist, theoretically exists, for someone to actually just ask you like it's a question. Not a given. Yes. Right? Like that is freaking huge. Yeah. Yes.

Oh, that's such a full circle moment. Yes. Like, I didn't even make the connection when you asked me that. Where it's like, yes, please fucking ask. Like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to just talk about it. Like, you have to ask me the question. Like, I, I'm not going to just bring it up. out of nowhere and especially like depending on like who's in the room.

Um, but they asked the question. And they again, they asked it in a way that felt like a genuine question. It didn't feel like, uh, a like fantasy assumption from some dude that's like, I don't know.

You ever been with a woman or something like that? Like it just, that was my only experience prior to Jesse asking me that question was if it was brought up at all, it was in a very overly sexualized nature and it made me so, uncomfortable. And ironically, unfortunately, but also kind of beautifully in the same night that Jesse asked me that question, like it led to us like at that point, we were done hopping bars. We were at a table sitting down having a conversation.

Love it. And I'm like, oh, that's so cool. Like what makes you like, I don't know, what makes you ask me that question? They're like, I don't know. Me and so we're talking. And like we were just like, say, just has this like lesbian confidence. I can't explain it. They didn't know anything about me at that time.

And I was like, confidence you say, what? And so then I had just opened up to them. I was like, well, you know, like, I've had experiences. But ultimately, like, I'm in a hetero presenting relationship. So, like, I don't even think I explained it that way now. I don't even, I'm in a relationship with a man. So, like, talk to the table. Yeah.

Yeah. Not allowed. And the next thing they said was, again, it was just so rooted in compassion. and like respecting my autonomy. And they said, okay, I hear you. But just so you know, Sage, just because you're in a relationship with a cis man

does not mean that you are automatically like straight. Just so you know that. Like not telling you what to do. And I was like, huh? Are you sure? Wait, are you, like if this is serious, Jesse, if you're for real right now, then it's like, I'm going to need some time to like really process this.

because again, I just tend to take things very literally. So unless somebody tells me that, like, if there's a blueprint that I've seen, then it helps my brain understand, like, how to apply that. But I'd never been given the blueprint until Jesse asked me that question. And then the unfortunate part of that night is the bartender. Gross. He, like, really took a liking to Jesse, which is cool, like, they're awesome.

But then he, like, kind of invited himself after office shift, like, came to our table. Yeah, and so Jesse and I are having this heartfelt conversation that for me is the first time of my life that I've ever got to talk about this in a place that felt safe where it's like, again, it's not sexualized. And then this guy is like trying to be a part of the conversation,

but then he starts, he starts sexualizing. He starts making these like gestures. And he's like, oh, so you? And I'm like, no. And it was, again, it was ironic, but also like Somatine's a beautiful, I had that juxtaposition of like, here's, like, this is what a safe person is.

And that's why Jesse's changed my life because they were the first person. They completely changed my understanding of like relationships, friendships, and like now I understand, oh, I get to have standards. Like I don't just have to be friends with anybody. I don't have to interact with anybody. Like, if you don't provide a safe space for me,

like I don't have to entertain you. Whereas grown up in the South, being socialized with a woman, And I didn't know that was an option. I was told I have to entertain everyone and attend to everyone, especially men. Oh, my gosh. There's so much there. I think the one thing that just jumps out to me is the power of, like, one,

having a safe space and someone who's creating that comfortable environment for you, but then also just like the power of questions and genuine questions, not a question where you are not actually. actually being asked the question, but like a question that's genuine. And then someone who's actually able to be supportive. And I know we're all like right around the same age too. And it's, it just gives me a lot of hope knowing that like, I feel like there are a lot of us who are socialized to like be that friend like

Jesse or hopefully could be that friend like Jesse who's creating that space and able to say the thing of like, hey, you have more options than what the dominant narrative and dominant culture tells you what you need to be. And then it's like you said this stage, but like it's so interesting that there was that contrast right there with this bartender, which is like the horrible reminder that some people, and I think oftentimes like even in my experiences too, like men are often like that where it's like, oh, we're talking about being gay, let's just sexualize it immediately when it's like, no, that's like your identity.

It's not automatically sexualizable. And it's not for them. Like, it's not for, like, that person's consumption. The male case, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And just to, like, harp on this point that we've really come to of just, like, ask people questions. Like, it's just so important to ask people questions, like, in a real way. And, like, like, you said, Matt, that I'm normally the one that, like, asks, you know, what is, you know, how do you identify?

And I feel like sometimes it's like, it can be a little like, is this a rude question or something? Except why. It's just like, just like, you know, you're just actually asking someone, you can ask in a spacious way. You know, you can be like, hey, just wondering, do you identify as straight? You know, I just wasn't sure, you know, whatever, like, whatever it is. If you're afraid that, you know, you might be off off the mark like, like Jesse did, you know, is sage straight. I feel like, but you never know when that question will be the thing. Like one of my exes is a very similar thing.

Their story was like, one time they were just at a party and someone was like, are you queer? And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm by. And that was the first time they ever said that to anyone, just like a rando at a party. You know? And it's just like, yeah, like that makes sense. Like, it's hard to bring it up out of nowhere to generate, but it is a question. Yeah.

It is. And I just want to say I relate a lot to what you said, Sage, because maybe it's even around the same age. But something I've realized with some of my close friends, like from college, who I'm so close with now, it's like they didn't ask those questions necessarily. So now we're looking back. And it's like, oh, I like, you just, it's like in their head, I was asexual. I didn't have like a sexuality. Because they didn't ask those questions necessarily. And it's like, oh, I have like this whole life going on. But if you're not asking those questions, then you'll never know the answers. But also, but also, you know, sometimes I think there's something to like creating that safe space too, where, you know, I've had friends who are queer or who are any certain identity and then just being visible allows space for others to show up in that way. Which, like, I kind of, I think it's so interesting that we're talking about questions because like Sage in your work, which I'm sure you could speak to more than anything. I feel like you are, I'm assuming you are that person. for many people if you could like speak to the work that you do.

Is it as a clinic, clinical, I don't know why I want to say like clinical psychologists, but you could put words to. Oh, gosh, no, I don't have a, yeah,

I don't have a doctorate. I have a master's in social work. So I'm a clinical, licensed clinical social worker is like a fancy term. You can call me therapist, counselor. But no, you know,

I'm actually, I am getting emotional when I'm thinking about it because, like, I have had clients who, on the first person that they talked to about their sexuality or their gender identity. And like having that experience with Jesse really gave me the blueprint of, okay, what did they do in that moment to make me feel safe? And how can I do that here?

You know, and like sometimes you can, something that you, when you were talking Evie of like asking the question, right, sometimes people might get offended and that's okay. Like they're allowed to get offended. And I think so many people. often, more oftentimes than not, don't ask the curious questions because they're afraid of offending somebody.

You're not afraid of offending somebody. You're afraid of feeling discomfort. You're afraid of feeling uncomfortable because you offend somebody. Somebody being offended is not a problem. That is data that you get a decision. How do I move forward? Do I honor and try to hear this person

and what they're saying? Like, I have said something, my intention was not to offend them, but that's the impact. Can I just like appreciate that and use that of like, okay, thank you for letting me. Thank you, right?

Like, it's not that you're afraid of offending somebody. It's afraid of, you are afraid of being uncomfortable. Get over it. It's discomfort. That is where the growth is. And so all that to say, like, I now, I don't, again, if it wasn't for Jesse, I don't think that I would be in a place. Like, I was socialized as a white middle class woman, right?

So, like, I had a, I've, like, I've gone through periods. and it's so cringe-worthy to, like, actual cringe, not the, like, cringe that's just so shame-coded. Like, actual cringe of, like, you know, experiencing enlightenment and thinking, like, oh, now I know more, like, because I've learned about this subject, now I'm a subject matter expert. And had it not been for Jesse asking that question,

I probably would be approaching clients in that way, and that would be causing a lot of harm. But because they showed me how to lean back into the curiosity that I had abandoned so long ago because it was punished and condemned and rejected so often. Like being able to find my way back to that curiosity is, like that is, if nothing else,

that I was reflecting on feedback I've gotten. I'm a baby therapist, by the way. Like I'm an associate level. I'm about to take my full licensure exam. Like, I am a very young therapist. I have had, and I don't say this as a bragging point because when I hear it, there's a like automatic rejection. But I, the number of people,

I have a little notepad that I'll write down if somebody says something that really touches me in session about our rapport relationship. Wow. And somebody said something this week and I was like, you know what? I've kind of been in a slump. Like, let me read this stuff.

It's been a while. There were so many entries of people saying I was the best counselor or therapist they've ever had. And my first thought is, I must be doing something wrong because what the fuck do you mean? Me as a baby therapist. And a lot of that was when I was like still in grad school.

Like, what do you mean? What? Like, I've got to be doing something wrong. But I think what it is is, like, if somebody has that experience with me, especially as a grad student therapist, the only skills I had at that time was to genuinely listen and try to hear an approach with curiosity. That's the only two things I had.

And it's the two things that are still the foundation for anything else. Before any approach, before any modality, it is can I really try to hear this person and can I try to meet them with curiosity? And those are the same things that have been the moments in my life when somebody really meets me in those same ways that have been the most impactful.

It's that simple. It's not fucking simple. Yeah. Yeah. This is so powerful. You don't have to go to school for that. No, but it's, yeah, no, it's powerful. And then there's all this other schooling where you get all these other skills

or everything else that you're doing to work up to your licensure that I'm sure builds out your skills. But yeah, it's interesting to think how much that resonates with people. I'm not surprised that you've been, like you're the best counselor therapist that a lot of people have experienced. I'm so curious, though, like there's so much learning and so much growth that it sounds like you've had.

And of course, where the pride has spoken. So we talk Survivor. Like, how do you feel like that? all of that like learning and growth that you had, whether related to your queerness or otherwise with all the things, kind of like served you in your survivor journey. Yeah. So again, being socialized as a woman in the South,

I never, the people pleasing. The, I never got an opportunity to like understand who I was. And so what would end up happening is I would tirelessly, tirelessly try to conform myself, not consciously. It's a very unconscious response, but in hindsight, it's like,

oh, that's what was happening. Like, just try to be what everybody else wanted me to be. And it would often turn up with like no results, like it,

because it's not authentic. And if for people who did like it, it wasn't because they liked me as because they liked what I was offering them. And so I would just like find myself on this constant depleted cycle. And so again, to me,

it's rooted back to Jeff. but I also really, I've been with my partner for over a decade at this point. And he has been such a consistent source of like safety and validation. He didn't have the same like understanding and language that Jesse did when it comes to sexuality and gender. But as an overall, just accepting me as I am, he has seen me through everything. Like he has seen me as cliche as it sounds at the lowest of low and the highest of high. And not once has he ever treated me differently, whether I was at a low point or a high point. It's been consistent.

And so I think that combined with meeting Jesse really started to lay this foundation that I didn't have prior of understanding, like, who I am. And going into a game like Survivor, you have to know who you are. Because you were going in with so many different strangers. It's a high stakes environment. If you don't have a sense of like, this is who I am, this is what I'm bringing that. anchor point, like you are going to get frazzled. You are going to get more dysregulated than you already are going to be at a baseline because you're starving and sleep deprived and dehydrated. You have to know who you are. So it's funny. And the producers want people that are like,

we want people that are going to get a life-changing experience. Right. I remember being an alternate and you as an alternate for 47, you still have to do like the pre-game interviews or whatever, just in the event like something happens. You go in. And one of the producers was asking me, he's like, yeah, so is Survivor going to be like, this like main, I can't remember how I said, but it was like this, some version of like main story of your life. And I was like, I thought my head was like, if I answer this honestly, like it could cost me like getting a right back,

but I did answer honestly. I was like, no, like it would be this much of my life. It was not a life-changing experience, but it was a very affirming one. And that is what I need. I had life-changing moments. this was like an environment where I got to put everything to the test from the, from, you know, the, seed water sunshine.

That's how I view like. You get a lot of seeds planted. You get the watering stage, which can be very long and daunting and dark, and it can look very similar to wilting, but it's not. You have to bear with it in order to get the sunshine. And I think Jesse was very much a sunshine moment for me. So like, I don't want to say like, Jesse, like, you did all the work. like I was, they, they watered seeds that needed to be watered and then they were that sunshine.

Getting to see that metaphorical garden play out and survivor, that was the biggest gift. It wasn't life changing and I didn't need life changing, but I did need an affirming experience and it was that. Ooh, wow. I resonate with that so much stage. I actually don't think I've ever heard someone describe it, like, describe that as resonant as like my experience. We're like, yes, I'm like, I just had this conversation.

with someone recently where they were like, so that's like the first line of your obituary, right? Like that's got to be the coolest thing you ever did. I was like, I fucking hope not. I did that for six months. Six weeks, six weeks, like six weeks of one year in my, when I was 28. Like I, my life is so rich and full.

And like, and I do think that that is the people. I really do think that is also often key to doing well at Survivor, very much like you're saying. Like you think of, you know, some of these people like, like Jeremy. Like he's got a full life and he knows what he's doing there and that's why he's good at Survivor. You know what I mean?

Like, seri. Like, yeah, she's got all these like amazing skills and fullness of her life that she's bringing to the game. And I don't know, I just, yeah, that really speaks to me where it's like, yes, it was, it is this really cool thing to do. And like, I definitely changed as a result. Like, it's like, it's not like it wasn't like life changing literally, but it wasn't like the moment of my life.

You know what I mean? And like, I really, for it. Like, I hope, I hope for every survivor player that it's not. Like, it's just one thing that you do in your life, you know? Yeah, I just have to shout out. Another person who comes to mind who I know you mentioned, like, leading into your season. It was Ty, who was on, wasn't the first season of the Pride? Yes, he was.

Everyone, check it out. Amazing interview with Ty from a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so beautiful, though. And it's so interesting because even thinking of Thai and a lot of other queer folks, but like Ty comes to mind with this is that there was like so much

to his story. I'm actually perfect timing. I was just rewatching Survivor Co-wrong, which is wild to think. Was he on Co-Rong? I think that's right. Okay. On R.H.P, we just, they're re-watching

Survivor Co-Rong or just we're re-watching it. And there's so much story that we get from him, but something we talk about a lot on the Pride is spoken in particular is how when it comes to like women and their stories. And I think, Evie, I don't know if we've like stumbled onto this pattern through these interviews and conversations at doing this podcast. But like oftentimes women are depicted in a like specific way on the show or like queer.

Or not depicted at all. Or not depicted at all. There's that. But also like the queer aspect, like queerness as part of their identity is necessarily depicted. I know you have your own relationship. with queerness, but I'm curious, like, how did you feel ultimately about, like, your own depiction? Again, like, in general, but there's also, like, the queerness aspect of it. And I'm curious if that was part of what you were, like, hoping was part of your story.

And I'm forgetting, was it mentioned at all? I don't remember. Yeah. No, it wasn't, which is okay with me. So I very much still struggle with imposter syndrome when it comes to, like, my queerness. and I'm like the reality is is that I am in a heteropresenting relationship. I have a lot of like heteropresenting privileges. So like I don't, it is my opinion.

Maybe this will change at a different point. Maybe other people have different opinions. But like I don't, I'm okay that my queerness was not depicted. I do not think that I should be the face of queerness. I do not have the same queer experiences. I think that I would have, I think it would have been very. inappropriate is how I feel because I hello Bentley I this is I this next part is very awkward to talk about because it can get just ripped to pieces and for so many

different interpretations but like I'm aware that I like I'm very femme presenting I'm aware of that and I fit traditional femme presenting stereotypes that are like appealing in current societal terms. Like, I don't know how to say it. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can recognize it. Whatever. No, Survivor is looking at you as like, look at this hot woman on our show. Right.

Yes. And it's very disappointing, but I think that is like what reality. They latch on to people who fit those societal norms and they try to make them the face of things that are very serious or very, like, important. And it's inappropriate. I'm not saying that there's probably so. much nuance in that. So I'm not trying to discredit anyone's experiences

or feelings or opinions that vary. This is just where I kind of sit currently. I don't think it would have been appropriate. I think I would have been very uncomfortable being the face of queerness when like again, in reality, my

queer journey an experience has a shit ton of privilege and does not capture like the important parts of that journey for most people. It's not appropriate. So I'm okay that it wasn't depicted. That's, you know what? It's interesting because this reminds me of a conversation we had earlier this season on the prize spoken with someone from Australian Survivor Miles

who went on to win the season. And, you know, that, he kind of said something similar in a way where that's just like one part of his identity. And I do think there's something really that's like validating. I understand what you're saying because there's something that's validating to your own identity and your whole personhood of recognizing that that's a part of you, but there are so many other parts of you. And I could imagine a world where it's like, you know, where you feel like you're being forced to talk about something or own something even more than it, you know, other aspects of your identity that should be highlighted and celebrated. So it's complicated and nuanced, which I feel like you're the queen of nuance. Like, I was appreciate you

referencing nuance. Like you're like, the nuance is there. I love it. I love it. That's my passion. No problem. And I'll say like, I think like, yeah, the hard thing with anything that Survivor shows, right, is that they're telling the story. You're not telling the story.

So like, I really understand that fear of like how are they going to, like, not wanting to be put in a spotlight in a way that feels like not your place in the, in it. And I'll say, you just told, like, the most canonically queer story in so many years. You know what I mean? Like, I just want to push back a little bit on the,

that you don't have as elements. You know, like, that is like, like, you grew up struggling with, like, what does it mean to be attraction?

Like, what is my gender? Like, what, you know, you had a big moment about that. And, like, I think,

I feel like there's like, I think sometimes the conversation gets, like, flattened into like, I think there's two different things where it's like, one is like, yes, like not wanting people with, you know, wanting to uplift loudest the voices of the most marginalized. Like, I think that is extremely important. And like, that's who we want to be, you know, really like investing in and like lifting up and

like all these things. Like I think that a hundred percent agree with. And that's different from like, is everybody's individual story valid and true and queer and etc. And I actually think like yeah, the more that people even people with heteropassing privilege in various ways actually own their identity

as queer people who are in heteropresenting relationships that just means there's more people who see themselves as queer people and as aligned with the movement and like and as empathetic to queer people, you know, like of all types. And so like I just think that like if you're listening out there and you're having that feeling like

you're fucking queer, in whatever word you want. And like that. And I think the like the linking of that is like if you are someone that has more privilege, then you should actually speak louder of like not like my story is the most important, but like queer people are important. And there's so many of us out there and et cetera, et cetera. And especially we're under attack in so many ways.

So that's my two cents on that. And I appreciate you for not wanting to take up like the wrong space. But I'm so fucking glad you're here telling your story here. And like, and I just like, yeah, that's all just really real. And so many people will go through that. Thank you, Abby. No, I think that's, I really appreciate you saying all that. Like, more than like personally, but like on a macro level, I do think everything you just said is so important.

And I guess, so I guess the nuance would be. Yeah. To your point of like, yeah, I can't control how like the producers would. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to be on the big screen. But like, maybe there's a different space. Right. You know? Right. And so thank you, Evie. Like right here.

And it's spoken. Exactly. That's why we're here. And I do think it's lovely, like, just while we're talking about this, to point to, like, a couple of other people who come to mind for me. One is Andy from season 47, who, like, being bisexual is part of his story, but also in, like, a heteropresenting relationship. And then I think of similarly, and this was not part of her story on season 44 of Survivor, but I think of Franny, who also has that similar dynamic too. And, you know, I love this conversation.

I love the nuance. Nuisance should be like the tagline, the hash. Hashtag the pride of spoken. Just because like both of these things are all these things can be true at the same time. And yeah, life is complicated. People are complicated and nuanced. Yeah. And that's why I should even ask your friends that seem like they're in straight relationships.

You should ask them too. You know, like, that's just like, and you can ask them in five years, in 10 years. You know what I mean? People change. Like, I'm just like, yeah, like, yeah, nuance. Nothing is a box. Nothing is fixed.

Like, yeah. I got hopped up there. I got hopped up there. I love it. I love it. I love them. Well, while we're on, uh, while I'm hopped up, um, could you speak a little more about your relationship to gender and how you think about that?

for yourself and kind of how that fits into everything I'm talking about. Yeah. So again, going back to the grad school, I don't like, so let me just plug social work for a second because I know a lot of people like I used to be like have a lot of misconceptions as to what that is. They hear social work and they think like child protective services, which is a part of social work, but it's not the entirety of social work. It's a very specific subsection. So social work in general, I mean, it's really just in its name, literally, it's like trying to understand social concepts and how those impact people of different identities,

the intersectionality of those identities, systems, and how those affect people on a social level. So a lot of identity conversation in social work, the conversations that were not present in that small country town growing up, very enlightening, very important, very hard, very beautiful. So in addition to like talking about sexuality, like gender would come up. And then I mean, again, like I, it's funny.

Linking this to Survivor. Evie, you're familiar with the psychology or the, what do you call it, the assessments, the psychological assessments we have to do? Yes, yes. The torture. And it was funny. This was, so for reference, I had to do those. four times.

Oh my God. Yeah. And they're like four hours for those of you who are... Yeah. Oh, because you did them for 47 and then again for 49. Did they think your personality changed drastically in that one year? They stayed the same. Interesting.

I'm like... So why'd they make you do it? That's what I'm saying. Oh, I know, right? I had to do it for Big Brother. I had to do it for Survivor twice. They expires after a year. But yeah, right?

Like same person. Yeah. But it was funny. The person who, the psychologist who like interprets those results and then reads it back to you and goes over it. She pointed out, one, the, this, I can't remember which one it is, but this particular psychological assessment that had this criterion or whatever you call it, very outdated. She acknowledged that. It's very binary.

It's, there's a lot of language that's problematic, but it's the ones that, you know, CBS. still chooses to use, whatever. And there's like a scale of masculinity and femininity. And I often like tend to score higher on the masculinity scale. And so she was going over like, yeah, what does that probably mean? And I really love this psychologist. But like the way she described it, she was like, yeah, so that probably means that you, you know, don't really relate with women as much.

like when they're talking about like kind of like women's stuff like he probably not that interested but if you were in a group of guys I was like in my head I'm like no to both all of that like I'm not really interested in anything that falls in a particular like traditional like binary gender norm like I don't my interests are very random they don't really make any sense and they're not yeah they they you wouldn't know who I would vibe with based on if you had a list of my interest That's so such a freaking weird way to describe anything. Like, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, those girls are talking about girls. Like, like, what even is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's like when it comes to like, when it comes to my gender identity,

the, I had a professor who used the term, like, I think genderqueer is what they used. And I was like, you know, that resonates with me a little bit more than non-binary. And I don't exactly know why that is. I think probably a lot of societal conditioning of like when I think like the image that comes up with non-binary. And I'm like, oh, do I match that? So like the jury's still out.

Is it non-binary? Is it genderqueer? Is it something else? Like I'm working against a lot of societal conditioning on a daily basis as we all are. But yeah, no, I do like gender queer because the reality is that when it comes to my gender expression, it is, it does tend to be very femme presenting. That is what I've noticed I prefer, but it also comes with a lot of assumptions. And you can always tell how you're being perceived

based on like the opening liners or the conversation starters that people choose. And it just does, it really doesn't resonate. Like the assumptions that people bring to me don't really match how I feel on the inside, but how I feel on the inside, I don't really know how to articulate. that either. But it's, I struggle with the terms masculinity and femininity because it's like, well, if we're going to use those terms, we have to have a pre-conversation. Like, are we talking about from like a traditional Western societal standpoint? Are we talking spiritually? Are we talking a different cultural lens? Like, how are we defining masculinity and femininity? Because that's going to

change my answers, like, depending on what we are trying to, like, what those terms mean. And so broadly speaking, I just don't, I don't find that I really resonate with any of If we're thinking about it from, like, traditional definitions in, like, Western society of masculinity and femininity, like, yes, I am, like, very direct. I do tend to have, like, a, I don't know, like, it's just direct. People call it bitchy. People call it blunt. People call it, like, cold or everybody. I'm like, no, I don't know, like, how to make you think otherwise, but I wish you could be in my head because I'm literally just saying, I'm just responding.

But I also am very gentle and compassionate. Like I have qualities that fit all over the spectrums. But again, it also depends on what spectrum we're talking about and how we're defining it. So that was a lot of word vomit to say like, I don't fucking know. Yeah. Well, I think that's, it's like, it's so interesting even just hearing all that because I, I have this thought coming into our conversation too, just refreshing myself on different interviews you've done.

And I very much relate to this at times where sometimes people want to put you into a box, which I think, especially from a casting perspective, like there's the idea of archetypes. So here's like this person who fits into this box or that box. And like, how do we sum up what this character is in one line? And I think where you're really interesting and awesome and where I resonate with you,

but I'm sure tons of people do, is that you don't fit into any of those boxes, which maybe in someone's minds, they're like, oh, you, like, that stage's box, that there are no boxes. Or I don't know how they look at that. But I do think it's sort of notable that somehow casting teams, and maybe it's because you're such a, like, strong story,

storyteller, but casting teams see like, oh, Sage doesn't need to be in a box. Like, there's a million different aspects of you. And I actually think that, I mean, a lot of, there are a few folks that really, but Evia, I also think of our conversation with Carolyn, Carolyn Weger from 44. And there's, I'm sure you've heard this before Sage, but there's definitely some similarities there between the two of you and just being these nuanced people who somehow end up on our TV in a world where we don't get a ton of nuanced characters at times. I could say nuance a million times.

I hope someone has their nuance countergoing. Nuisance. Say it's my love language. Keep saying it. Yeah. I'm nothing to add. I'm just like, I'm like, yeah. No, I think, but you know, in the spirit of, you know, you defining your story, sage, especially

because I feel like we could actually be here forever. talking with you. But I am curious if there's any part of like your story and who you are in the broader sense that you wish that people saw or aspects of who you are that you wish that people got more. Or I should say maybe in a different way because I think there's an assumption there that you want people to perceive you in some way and have an opinion, which is like very complicated.

Yeah. But your reactions. Wait. But I guess, know exactly that. For the people that do perceive you and like have assumptions and come at you a certain way, is there anything that you wish that they saw instead? Well, I think you're spot on.

Because as you were asking the question, I'm like, fuck, I don't know how I'll answer this. Like, I don't, nothing instantly comes to mind. So then kind of as I noted before we started like, oh, am I going to have to manufacture a response? And I don't want to do that. What I will say is you're exactly right. of like I don't want to be perceived. That's the point. That's why I use terms like partner. That's why I put they in my pronouns.

That's I don't, I want you. I know how I, I'm painfully aware of how I'm often perceived on the outside. And I want to intentionally just make you just stop and think for a second. Just break the script, break the societal conditioning. What I will say is rather than what I want you to know about me,

it's funny. At the end of all these interviews, people always ask, you have anywhere that you want people to look and I want to say in the mirror, look in the mirror. Just take a second. And I don't mean that in like a you need to. I mean like no, genuinely like just pause. Just please like in a in a day and age where our attention spans are intentionally being cut shorter and shorter and shorter. So we stay more and more unaware and have less tolerance to stay informed. Like please just pause. Like when you hear me speak, this is this is this is my long way of answering your question.

When you hear me or anybody speak, I want you to pause and go inward for a second. What's coming up? How do you feel? What is the feeling? What is the body sensation? And then get here. Why is that? For people who don't like me,

you don't know me. For anybody that, if you don't like Matt, if you don't like Evie, you don't know anybody. You know little bits and pieces. So what is it in yourself that's coming up? as well as if you really like somebody, if you really like me, if you really like Matt,

if you really like Eddie, pause. You also don't really know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, it's not about me. It's not about you. It's not about you. It's not, it's about yourself.

So I just want people, rather than trying to put me in a box, can you, can you just pause and be with yourself? And like, what box are you in right now? Does that box fit for you? Whatever comes up as a response, or reaction to what I or anybody else is saying, oftentimes, a lot of nuance,

people who need accountability, don't use this as a way out of it. But whatever comes up for you, get curious about that because it's often not about the person that you're judging. It's usually you're judging a part of yourself. That's why I don't get mad at the mean comments.

I also don't really see them, but I don't get mad when I hear unfavorable things. I shit you not. My first reaction is, oh. Like it's empathy. It's like I know what that feels like. I've experienced it a lot in the past. I'm going to experience in the future.

I'll probably experience versions of it now. Get familiar with yourself and love those parts that are hard to love or continue loving those parts that you've learned to love. Love them even more. Just ditch the shame and get curious about yourself. Wow. I love that. I love that.

That's honestly brilliant. the like, yeah, it's just such a good way of talking about the parissocial relationship stuff where it is just like, it just is fully about the, the, what the viewer is feeling in relation to like the glimpses of information they have. So it just inherently is much more about them than it is about you. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. Yeah.

That's so beautiful. I mean, I will ask this as we. sort of wrap up. I wish we could be here forever, really. Listen, hit me up. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. But, you know, I want to ask you, especially thinking of our audience of queer listeners or LGBTQ plus listeners, however folks identify along the way, is there, are there any words of anything in particular that you have for folks, whether that's just like wisdom, love, anything that you want to.

to share with with folks who are tuning it so much wisdom has already been dropped oh 1,000 yeah you know um there's a there's a there's a uh I don't know if I'll get the quote right and there's a lot of quotes that speak to it maybe it's more appropriate to call it a concept or I guess um but it came up recently and I can't stop thinking about it and I've been feeling a little bit lost like in the last month or so. And this quote really just or this perspective really did something for me. And it's the reminder that to be brave or courageous does not require like to be those things, to do something that's brave or courageous is to do it even when you feel the fear.

So often we see people who we perceive to be like brave or courageous and we think like, wow, like gosh, they just, they don't feel any fear or anxiety. That's why they can do the thing and I'll never be able to do that because I have so much fear and anxiety. That's not true. That's not true. Some of the most feedback I got after Survivor was like praising me on my authenticity. And that was as touching as it was.

It was also like, holy shit. Like I've strived for that my entire life and I didn't know how to do it because I was too scared because when I was authentic, it was rejected. It was condemned. It was too scary. But then I just started. I'm like, you know what? Fuck it.

Like not being myself. is miserable. What do I have to lose? And it's scary. It's still to this day. There's times where I know, like, if I show up as me, it's probably not going to be accepted, but I have to do it anyways because I refuse to abandon myself. So my words would be, you are brave. Everybody can be brave and courageous. It is not the absence of fear. It is not the absence of anxiety. It is the presence of those things and doing the thing anyways. So everybody's brave and courageous. Just lean into it, tap into it. The fear is just, it's an emotion. It's not, it's not a dictator. Oh, yes, yes. I love that so much. And I want to remind everyone that's like, when you do the

brave thing, then that also opens the door for someone else to do the brave thing, right? Like your friend Jesse went on their whole journey that led them to be able to ask you that question, you know, me and Matt went on our journeys that brought us doing this podcast. You know, it's just like, it's just you have more ripple effects than you can ever know. especially if you're just being yourself because that just really does make everybody more able to do that. And I really do think that's why people

so resonated with you, Sage, of just like, like Sage is being authentic. It's not necessarily the same person as I am, but it makes me feel like I can be my own weirdo self, whatever that is. You know what I mean? And that's freaking beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sage. And, I mean, you.

Yeah. This was really a truly a delight. And it was really, really wonderful to talk with you. And I think that there was a lot here for all of our beautiful listeners to mull over for some time. So thank you so much. Thank you. Can I say one thing? Yes. Yes. Shout out Jesse and Talia. I love you both so much. Thank you for being patient with me. I know I'm ghost mode right now, but I want to see you both soon. Nice. Are you going to send them the podcast? Oh yeah. I probably don't even have to. Talley is a huge survivor fan. Chalia is Jesse's partner. Nice.

Nice. Well, good work. Good work, you both. Yeah, thanks again. Seriously. Awesome. Thank you both. Thanks for having me.

Seriously, like unexpected, but really an honor. And I just appreciate you for making space and getting curious. Hell yeah. Nuisance, people. Nuisance, nuance, nuance. Survivor has always made me feel seen. My name's Will and I'm a trans man. And really, the first time I remember seeing a trans person

depicted in media was when I was 12 years old and I watched Survivor for the first time and I saw game changers when Zeke was outed by Jeff Varner. And when I was 15, I was outed as a trans person myself and Zeke's story reminded me that I wasn't alone in what I was going through. That was in May of 2021 and that September Evie was on Survivor 41 and was just so important to my family and I seeing Evie be successful and happy and pursuing their survivor dreams and showing that I could be too. and now it's five years later

and I'm a senior at UMass Boston where I wrote my thesis on the evolving characterization of Survivor contestants and I have the privilege of working for underground games a queer own business that builds Survivor challenges and I'm surrounded by community

including the fact that I get to call Evie my friend. So Survivor means everything to me. Hi Matt, Dr. Evie and Grace listening to The Pride has spoken It was actually my gateway into all of RHAP. I was, this was the first podcast I listened to in the network. And being a gay man who has been on a reality show myself,

I just really enjoyed connecting with the community of other like-minded people and realizing like when I was little watching Survivor, I thought it was just me and a bunch of people. of 40-year-old women watching Survivor. All my teachers watch Survivor Ed. So later in life getting to actually connect with fellow LGBT Q Plus Survivor Watchers

just has meant so much to me and has really added to my whole survivor world. So thank you. Hey, I'm Elliot They Them. What being queer in the Survivor community has mean to me is that I have so much

acceptance and love and new friends and chosen family, even when my own family doesn't accept me. And this year was the first year where I put on my Facebook, where there's even some not cool people, hey, I'm queer, period. That's it. I didn't leave it up to question. Even though beforehand, most people already knew. Most people already knew that I am queer as fuck. I don't know if I could say that in this video, but I did. Anyway, I started following Survivor Season 41, Dr. Evie Gagoda. I saw their TikTok where they were like, I'm a little guy, but I'm also a lesbian.

And that hit me in my soul, and I love them. I love the pride has spoken. I talk to you guys a lot. And you guys are the best. I am Michael. I'm an associate professor in a computer science in a French university. And in our lab, we have monthly drinks with. queer people to share our stories.

And they helped me be more out. And since I bought my Pride-Aspoken t-shirt, I've been even more out at the lab and during my teachings. And two months ago, one of my former students who is now in the lab told me that she struggled to find a university where she felt included and okay. And one of her first classes was with me, And I was wearing a predate-spoken t-shirt.

And she told me that it helped her a lot feel included and safe. And I want to thank you for everything you do without knowing it. Thank you. We love to hear from everyone so much. Thank you so much. And you are allowed to swear on the podcast. Yeah, you are allowed to swear on the podcast. There's been very much, there's been like some much more, you know,

salacious stuff on the podcast. Yeah. Than a F-bomb, you know. That was so sweet. That was all so sweet. From Will, from Drew, from Mikhail, and from Elliot. Thank you so much. And thank you to the first batch of clips we played.

Yes. Do you shout out those names, Matt? Yes. There's Thundercats, Jay, Kim, Tess. Just thank you all for being part of this episode and sharing your love of this community and being visible and all the things. I met a loss for words, I think. It's literally so special.

and magical. Like I just think about like for every one person that sends us a video, a video message back, just like all the hundreds of people that didn't and are having these experiences. And it's just so cool. And then you add in,

you know, the people that watch Survivor and see me or any of the other amazing queer survivor players that we've had on all these seasons of the Pride has spoken, including Sage. And it's just so special and cool. This has really, I really entered.

this season of the Pride has spoken feeling like my Survivor Cup was empty and I was like, I need a break and now I've gotten extremely uplifted from all the beautiful conversations we've had and all these videos and our hilarious couples game and I don't know, I'm just leaving,

feeling way better than I started and that's so special and cool. So thank you everyone. Yeah. What a delight, what a treat. I was like, I don't know that we should react. It's going to feel like they're going to be like, oh, we love the public.

I was so wrong. It was so sweet and so nice. And thank you so much, everybody who's sending clips or people who didn't send in clips, but reach out in other ways or who just listen. I think that's important too. I think, like, I also agree this has been like an incredibly amazing season. Again, season five, a little bit of a milestone. For us, we'll be back next year. And also knowing that, like, you know, can be rough out there at the moment.

So, you know, do things, do queer things to like, you know, find community and the love that's here doesn't just exist, just, you know, it's not even June anymore. It's July. So, you know, keep the momentum going and yeah, so awesome and amazing and cool. Yeah, I mean, I'm always going to be so proud of what we do on The Pride has spoken, like, for so many reasons, but just because it creates space or, yeah, it creates space for people to show up and express themselves and be who they are. And for us, maybe most importantly, to be in community together and for people to be seen. and to be in conversation with us and each other. So this is all really special.

And yeah, Evie, at one point in the conversation with Sage, I know that we talked about this idea of like, oh, does, like, does survivor end up on your tombstone? And it's like, no, there's so much other life that's happening. But, yeah, this is pretty cool. You want to say that the pride's spoken will be on your tombstone, man? Just a little bit, you know? It'll be your birth and death dates and then pride has spoken.

start and end it. It will never end. It goes on forever. Exactly. Never ends. To infinity rainbow 69. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, okay, thank you to RCHP for hosting us.

Thank you to Rob as well for giving us this platform to do what we want to do. It's very cool. Make sure you buy the merch to support our wonderful organizations. And thank you, Derek. Thank you, Derek and Jose for developing the, uh, Derek does all the work to get the merch up and available for you to buy and, you know, help us donate to charity. Jose developed the new logo for the shirts and the merch as well this year.

Jess Sterling and Scott St. Pierre for doing editing, all that sort of stuff. Anybody else were missing as well, Brandon Donlin posts to social media. So like this, this is a community effort to get this thing off the ground every year. Yeah, it really is. And again, just one more push. Of course, there's the merch, Rob, his website. website.com slash store, get the merch, support some good causes that way, but also like, share the pride has spoken with people. I love how this, these conversations are accessible, not only to

like rabid survivor fans, but even just to people who love to hear good conversations. So. Rehabcon coming up, Brian is going to be a pride of spoken. Who knows? If there's a rapcon, I don't know if this is confirmed or not, but one day, one day, you'll see us. Send it to your friends who you think might, our share. straight, but maybe you might not be straight. You never know. Crack the egg.

You said, crack the egg? Yeah. Oh. Do you want an egg? It's more of a trans thing, but do you know the egg? Do you know the egg? I mean, not to get into it. I'll tell you.

I'll teach you about the egg later, Matt. Thank you. Teaser for season six where Grace will explain it to everyone. That's right. Okay. Awesome. There we go. We love you all.

We've done it. Follow Evie at Evie Jag. Grace. Hi from Grace. Or go for Grace. me, Matt Scott W. And without further two, this is The Brightest Spoken.

Everyone went so slow. We did go so slow. We did do it again. No, we did it. We got it. We did it.