RHAP: We Know Survivor - TV for Real: Evvie Jagoda Charts TV (and Human) Evolution

Episode Date: December 1, 2024

This week, Mike Bloom talks to Evvie Jagoda about the evolution of television.

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and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to TV for Real, where reality and scripted TV collide. My name is Mike Bloom. I'm back from the Thanksgiving holiday. For those who celebrate, I am very thankful to be joined by my guest this week. Unfortunately, Sasha will not be able to join us, but someone that is definitely able to make up for it with their guest appearance.

I am thrilled. Welcome for the first time to TV for Real, Ivy Jagoda. What's up, Mike? I'm so excited to be here. I didn't even know. Okay, full disclosure, I don't know that much about this podcast, but I didn't even know that I was filling in for Sasha's shoes, and I'm intimidated, but I'm like, I'm short, I'm Jewish,

I think we'll make it work. Exactly. Listen, you're basically two-thirds of the way there, essentially. Yeah, there's a critical piece that I'm missing, but that's fine. Most of the Venn diagram is filled out. I mean, you're the one with the doctors. You can tell me. Isn't there a phrase like there's an and with the middle and there's like the neither nor?

Oh, my God. That's beyond the Venn diagram. Like there's some sort of logical phrase that I'm forgetting that I've described to it. Okay. I'm not going to lie. My PhD did not include enough Venn diagrams for that level of conversation. Okay. That's fine.

Listen, PhD is not required today i guess a phd in tv is the one thing that's a uh a prerequisite for this very podcast and i guess i should say evie how studied are you up on that obviously we know your involvement in reality tv but are you a connoisseur of the scripted variety as well okay here's the thing mike okay we talked last night when we decided that i was going to do this podcast with you also for the listeners I'm just going to say I've had a couple drinks before this I just want to let's get it all out there

this is like the podcast dude again you're not entirely sure about the tone of this but like we Sasha and I call this the party podcast okay that's what I thought and this is tend to be this tends to be how I relate to podcasts with you Mike for whatever reason because I feel like the last one I did I was also like this where I was like lol this is a silly time but you just bring it out of me in the best way so thank you Mike

of course anytime listen I love when someone reciprocates and that is very clear with you yes okay so last night around 11 p.m we talked about this or whatever and i made a list on my phone of scripted shows that i've watched should i just like bang them out yeah well let's let's let's start from um i'm trying to think chronologically or maybe a list of like quality or favorites let's start chronologically do you remember like what what's a show that you remember from early on in your life and i don't know if this made the list or not that you got okay done okay here's a show that i i feel like this was probably like late elementary to early middle school like i felt like i was becoming a teenager in this era okay controversial probably seventh heaven okay this is interesting i yeah i haven't i'll admit i dabbled a little bit uh

you know obviously i think again given uh one of the things you share in with sasha and myself as well like not typically the show we would watch considering sure exactly like watching a uh pastor that turns out to be one of the most sinful pastors off screen that you could imagine and his family it's bad yep but I okay but I feel like do you tell me if you agree with this I feel like I can relate as growing up pretty Jewish I feel

like I can relate to shows about religious like I think there's a thing of like their religious just a different religious is somehow closer than like not religious sometimes you know what i mean yeah no i know i totally agree that it almost feels like stuff that was and granted there was like not a lot of jewish stuff uh you know especially in the days and as we were getting closer to it especially with cartoons and specifically children's shows bringing it in

more that's the gateway drug but it is interesting because yeah sometimes i felt like things were a little too close to home when it was a little too jewish and i'm like okay listen i i just have to like take away one book of the bible and uh basically we're on the same page here so what's going on it's and it's also not like those types of shows especially seventh heaven which was you know not exactly on these basic cable christian-based channels this is like abc family yeah exactly wb i think it was so it's like oh wb that's right that's yeah they're not exactly saying like all right and this is what god teaches us it's just more so hey here's what the virtues that i carry through in my sermons to teach my son that uh the one episode i really remember was the one where the oldest son, Matt, they catch him with pot.

And it's like he is, I don't know, like has a stash of angel dust in his pillowcase. Like they treat it like it is the most taboo thing. And that this man has basically like shooting heroin directly into his arm in front of his parents. Yes. Relatedly, Simon, who's like one of the those like one of the youngest in the original when he grows up to be uh in college there's a plot line where i mean he commits the ultimate sin of having sex before marriage in when he's in college and it's so it's so much of a crime and terrible for you that he it literally leads to him like failing out of college because he's like having because him and his girlfriend are like skipping class to have sex

and therefore it leads me to like flunk out of college and the lesson of course is that having sex will make you fail out of college and ruin your life yeah exactly as we know it's just like your brain is a switch right it's only libido or academics. There's no difference in between. Yep. There's also, speaking of the Jewishness, at some point, Matt, the older one, the oldest one, he ends up marrying a rabbi's daughter. So he is like the pastor's son, rabbi's daughter thing. And there's I grew up in a kosher home. So like we didn't mix meat and milk and there's like a very funny scene that my whole family enjoyed of like

when I guess there's like a meet the family thing and the pastor's wife main character woman tries to make a kugel to be nice to the Jews and at the end like the whole meal erupts for like a variety of reasons and at the end

the rabbi's wife is like, well, you know, it was so nice that you made a kugel. And the rabbi, the pastor's wife was like, well, yeah, and you know, I couldn't find schmaltz. So I did cream. And therefore it's like milk with meat, which is like not kosher. And it was very funny as a young Jewish kid growing up.

I, I, I, that I was like, this episode of Seventh Heaven is for me. Yeah. I, I, that I was like, Oh, this episode of seventh heaven is for me. Yeah. So talk to me about, you know, at what age were you watching this? And were you taking these cautionary tales that they were beating into us? Like,

were you taking them at face value where you're like, Oh my God, is this really happened? Yeah. This is like, that's a great, that's a great question. Okay.

I think I would, I definitely was watching this. I, right. Like I said, I think this was like late elementary to like probably like freshman year of high school like i feel like this was like a transition from kid to teenager show for me and like i do feel like because a lot of those messages like don't have sex don't do drugs those were definitely messages i received but not from like a christian you'll go to hell

way for more of just like area it's more so they are exaggerating it to the nth degree where yeah i mean yeah i mean that we spoke last time we spoke with owen about it and like we talked all about dare and anti-drug psa's that existed both in you know face to face as well as like in pop culture and this is one though that i think really jumped to that conclusion uh before the the truth ads came out of like this is the first step you take to the path to hell right and i i think for me i think the thing that i really i think why i was watching it is like i think i really was drawn in by the family dynamic you know like I think you know I'll just spoiler alert those messages they did not work love drugs love sex

you know I like them a lot but you're not in school anymore it's okay you can have as much sex as you want it's all fine but I do I think the thing that I really liked was that the tension would happen but then the parents were always really nice in the end

like even if they were like disappointed they were nice about it and like loving and I think like that was a piece I think grappling with those issues but then having no having the this is a 45 minute episode that will have a resolution where it's

all okay generally was like the important thing that I was getting from it you know what i mean where you got to like see it play out but like also they're all fine i think that was kind of like the thing that's the thing yeah it is this sort of like reversion to the status quo of like well we've all learned a lesson today and we won't speak of it again but at least now we can sort of have this cultural reset it never really felt like they were i mean i guess with the exception of simon everlasting stakes to these bad choices that they make like they were I mean I guess with the exception of Simon everlasting stakes

to these bad choices that they make because they were always able to revert to the mean that's right that's right and definitely like the relationship of like the older siblings to the youngest ones as like a kind of like I feel like I was really like I was the younger of two kids and I kind of

always wanted there to be more kids and I kind of wanted to be an older to a younger and so I you know I don't know all this stuff there's definitely something sort of like family shit playing out for me you know do you have a favorite show of all time this could be either a show you turn to and you're like your time to need or like one that you've just like

you've watched one time and it's just always been your number one without question that is a freaking hard question oh yeah uh different eras of my life i would have different answers yes like okay come through here yeah okay i have to say it's so it feels a little embarrassing to say but i think honestly gone to my head in this moment a little a, a couple of drinks in. Favorite show of all time? West Wing.

Okay. Yes. So were you like a day one person hopping on? How did you get involved in this? Definitely not. I was, it was, I think that was like a show that my parents watched. And then I feel like in my like teenager hood as like a nerd, you know, like there's, there's at some point you discover Aaron Sorkin, you know what I mean?

Like, I think that's, that's a nerd rite of passage. And I think, yeah, that was honestly extremely transformative to me of like, you know, the most idealistic what politics could be like, I, to the point that I had at some, you could buy the box set of the DVDs. I had all the DVDs one through seven that come in like a briefcase as if it's like the nuclear codes, you know, like it has like a fake presidential seal, you know, Jeb Bartlett, number one, like imaginary president. I mean, he solved the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Like, you know, he did, he did a lot of great stuff. So yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I sort of found my way into west wing backwards my first sorkin experience was actually with the social network oh i mean i love that movie also i love it i mean i i honestly i'm a fucking sucker for sorkin dude i'm a sucker for him did you watch the newsroom i even watched the newsroom and i even liked the newsroom okay see that yeah that's a high barometer yeah i literally liked the newsroom? I even watched the newsroom and I even liked the newsroom. Okay, see that? Yeah, that's a high barometer.

Yeah, I literally liked the newsroom. Yeah. No, actually, you know what? I'm lying. I did. That was not my first exposure to Sorkin because I did briefly back in 2006. I remember it clear as day. There was this whole narrative of there were these two NBC shows that both took place at a variety comedy show.

And there was 30 rock and there was studio 60 on the sun and i love studios okay studio 60 on the sun sure it was a really good show i don't know if i go that far but i think it's better than people remember it i think good wait what even was the criticism because i feel like this was also probably in an era where i i swear i'm like downloading shows from iTunes onto my video iPod like that's how I'm watching some of these yeah if I'm remembering correctly I mean first off I think it's the idea that like for what represents a better slice of life of working a comedy show 30 Rock is more wacky and zany but like the fact that it was

created by Tina Fey and obviously backed by Lorne Michaels does capture a bit more than Studio 60. I remember the main critique of Studio 60 being that like the actual show within a show was not that funny of like, oh, this is what they're trying to make at the end of the day. And it's this. But like looking back, especially with the the the recent death of Matthew Perry, like having him and Bradley Whitford helm a show together. It's pretty damn remarkable in retrospect I loved it I loved it I I truly loved it and I feel like that show the other thing is about me is that I'm like

an absolute sucker for romantic storylines and shows like the will they won't me won't they like I want it every time I'm like excited when it works out even though it's very obvious that this was gonna happen like I love it and studio 60 they though it's very obvious that this was going to happen. Like I love it. And studio 60, they, they wrapped all those up so quick,

you know? And, uh, they saw they're like, Oh, I think we're going to this, this, a five-year plan and exactly work it out right now.

Yeah. But I could have followed him. I could have followed him for more. Were you a, a Josh and Donna shipper on the West wing? Of course. No, actually though, do you know that there's an era

where it's like Josh and Mary Louise Parker has a character? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Weeds. Also, let's come back to that. Oh, yeah, we'll come back to that. The thing is, I have a huge crush on Mary Louise Parker. She's so hot and cool and sexy in every single one of her things ever.

And her and she plays basically like a sort of like equivalent of head of Planned Parenthood or something like that. And her character is so hot and cool for Josh. And way, I mean, way out of his league. It's honestly like, well, but then Donna gets really hot. Like I'd say cooler by the time they actually get together because she's all like powerful in like one of the campaigns. Yes. So anyway, I was a josh and donna shipper but i i if i had my number one pick it probably would

have been josh and mary louise parker's character but once that's over it's like obviously it's got to be josh and donna you know let's talk about weeds here because uh yeah was it just that you were like following mary louise parker was it to your point on the fact that you weren't taking the seven heaven lessons correctly right that's like it's like we have to keep in mind i didn't understand that i had a huge crush on mary louise parker but i definitely did like that's definitely like an underlying huge part i also think at the time i had never smoked weed and it turns out that's one of my other big loves in life along with women so um yeah i just didn't know what was happening for me, but I love that show, like, a lot.

I really enjoyed that show. I mean, I think for the first little while, I still think, especially in retrospect, like, once they burn down the town and leave, they get a sense of a little bit like, like, yeah, wait, exactly, we're in Mexico, and they're building the tunnel between Mexico and California. Like, what is that that there's only so many

times that we can see like Nancy Botwin sip on a straw for your like it feels like we've lost the plot here I can watch Nancy Botwin sip on a straw all day long like that's what I'm saying but yes no but I like because the other thing another one of the shows on my list here is Desperate Housewives

I feel like I do really like the genre of suburban mom goes bad you know like that that definitely works for me and i think the yeah i feel like the weeds i don't know i mean it's all the things it's like the suburbs like especially i grew up in like classic suburbs you know know, right. And it's like suburbs gone bad. The, the, the, the stuff that's below the surface, you know, the like, and yeah, I don't know. I just, I just, the, the, the chaos keeps ensuing, but it reverts back. I also think there's a,

there's a very memorable scene to me in weeds where she goes to some like fancy, like Hamptons type party. And she's like, oh, these people are buying $50,000 bottles of wine just because it's $50,000. So she takes her regular weed and she's like, oh, this is exclusive. And you have to get a week list and you can only get one. And like, I remember thinking like, oh my God, capitalism is so fucked up. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like you get these like bursts of wisdom.

Like that one really stuck with me of like, oh, fancy stuff is cool because it's exclusive and fancy. You know what I mean? Like that was like a lesson that I learned from Weeds. Have you ever seen the HBO TV miniseries of Angels in America with Mary Louise Parker? Oh my God. I didn't know she Mary Louise Parker. Oh, my God.

I didn't know she was in that. Mike, I literally just now. The part of the reason I'm drunk is because my friend picked me up from the airport and we went to the bar and we were talking about how we saw Angels in America together. We saw the play version. It's like a million hours. I actually haven't seen the HBO show. And if I had known that Mary Louise Parker is one of the characters, who is she? So she's Harper.

She is. She's Joe's husband. And then and then Justin Kirk oh my god I have to watch I'm gonna watch that right after this I'm never gonna sleep tonight okay and then Justin Kirk who plays Andy the brother-in-law in Weeds he is Pryor Pryor Walter oh my god I have so much more of an interest in watching this HBO special now oh Oh my gosh. I recommend everyone out there. Yeah. Their chemistry. So good.

I mean, it's really interesting because they also like they, I mean, for those that haven't seen angels in America, like there are two characters barely interact with each other. They do at some points, but like barely do, but yeah, it's really interesting,

obviously compared to weeds and especially compared to like, I'll let you talk about that. Will they, won't they certainly as they were getting along there and the, the visage of Nancy's dead husband just disappears in in the rearview mirror they were really teasing at that oh sure well not even i mean i feel like in maybe the last episode they like have sex on the lawn like like it's like i mean it eventually wills but in a very won't Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit Superstore.ca to get started. Give me some other shows that are on your list here. Okay, well this is related because another big show on my list, probably very much up there in the favorite shows, crossover character, Mary Louise Parker's husband in

Weeds. What else is he in? Tragic figure, he always is born to die, like how he dies in Grey's Anatomy another one of my shows yeah Grey's is a show that uh gets talked about often here uh it is one that I'm still trying to learn about but talk to me about what you love about and here's the question when did you stop watching Grey's Anatomy because I feel like everyone has that point okay yeah I think I watched is this a spoiler like yeah it may be like spoilery I mean

I'm not going to provide spoilers from my perspective I can tell you what I know which is very little let's just say one of the main leads to my knowledge is dead now and I didn't see that happen but I watched like a lot of the stuff before that like I watched

yeah I probably watched I watched through the whole like private practice era spinoff like I watched yeah I probably watched I watched through the whole like private practice era spinoff era I watched a lot of those and some point in there after I probably stopped but I watched probably like at least I watched the plane crash yeah I watched a lot I watched a lot okay I want to

paint the scene for you my peak Grey's Anatomy era again this is still in the era a lot of this stuff happened where where my dad gave me the password to the Apple ID that we shared as a family. And he didn't seem to care that I was downloading $1.99 at a time. And so I downloaded like probably the first two seasons of Grey's Anatomy in that method. And I would watch them on my video iPod with this like these speakers that I got from my bat mitzvah and I would like

lay on the floor of my bedroom and I'm like a blue carpet like watching so like this was the this was the format and I absolutely loved it Meredith Gray I mean compelling character like like the doctors I don't even

know I think it's got a sorkiny energy you know people are walking around stuff's happening there's like emotional depth I think uh Meredith Gray is kind of the classic what's the thing like pixie pixie girl man and pixie dream girl yeah and it pixie dream girl she's definitely like got that energy again a type that you know all of us who who like girls that's probably a type that we enjoyed in that era and uh you know that that all worked for me uh that was yeah for some reason I feel like that show really was like a kind of like again a lot of these for me are like the shows that kind of

transition to adulthood shows I feel like that one again was like uh oh now I'm watching a kind of adult show like because it is like life and death situations I mean was there anything that you like learned incorrectly about medicine or anything because these are like grave situations but also once you get to a certain age you're like oh there's this is so much bullshit that they're just kind of throwing out there for dramatic effect yeah well i mean i i'm so my uncle is a doctor and i feel like i once i once asked him about uh doctor shows and he was like i just feel like they're having a lot more fun than i'm having and like so that seems right um what did i learn from it i mean why did i like it

so much also it has a really good soundtrack i feel like that's definitely part of it i think honestly i actually think it wasn't about the medicine or like any of that it was about the like emotional shit like I think like the Meredith and Christina friendship and like their kind of like dark twisty thing like you know again as an early teen you're very like oh I've got my emotions and I'm like very special and deep for having them and you know you see uh I feel like they're kind of like teenagery adults where they have kind of these feelings and they're not really handling them well yeah that is such a good point that I think it's a great lesson to kind of teach people that are going through these emotions is that like this is yeah you probably get a better

handle on them as you you know end up making the move to adulthood but like at the same time it's a reminder that this is being human not even just being a teenager or someone on the precipice of experiencing this yeah absolutely and like there's a lot of good also i think like the intergenerational trauma that's like happening there with like her and her mom feels very like and to be clear this is all me editorializing now at the time I'm like I don't know hot doctors and show and whatever you know but but I I really do think the Meredith Gray like dark twisty thing and then also I guess I was probably in high school and in a very like competitive probably like my most like starting

the academic competitiveness which is also like a big part of it, of them being very competitive with one another, but then ultimately friends. These are all beautiful ensemble shows at the end of the day. I like that shit. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it seems like that's also a bit of a carryover for you, is that

you like shows that are around a group of people, and there is that sort of communal aspect as much as like wisteria lane is not necessarily uh the most uh you know like let's all get together rah rah sis kumbah like they are all living on the same street together and so it seems like you kind of you're kind of looking for these shows that maybe are based out of like some sort of bubble in a manner of speaking what I'm also realizing is that these are all shows that also my parents watched but I didn't watch with them but we were both watching them but not like

necessarily like like a hilarious like weird thing is that like I know that my dad thinks Ellen Pompeo is hot which is like definitely like not our family dynamic in general but like that was just like a thing which is like Ellen Pompeo is like fine I'd say in my opinion but you know whatever okay and he was watching it and I was watching it but we were not watching it together and the same

thing was true with Desperate Housewives like my mom was watching Desperate Housewives and I knew it and again I'm downloading it on my video iPod and I'm watching it by myself. And so like, that's some stuff that's happening for me. Yeah, so that was just some stuff about me. And I think there's something there where, again, it's like a lot of these core shows,

like I'm going to be an adult. I'm going to watch what my parents are watching, but I'm going to have my own teenager experience of it. You know? Was there a show at one point where you had like put them on to it where you sort of repaid the favor okay so okay they're they're okay i think the the show that this most relates to is is heroes you must be a heroes guy yeah well again well it's like

we've talked about it's uh you always put that in quotations yet another nbc show uh and the writers strike you know that that okay so me and my mom okay obviously i also was writing this list the night after thanksgiving so i'm very in a in my family uh relationships feeling but But okay, I was literally... It's giving thanks, yes. Exactly. I was really into Heroes. My mom and I, my mom worked part-time during high school and she didn't work on Tuesdays.

And on Tuesdays, she would like pick me up from school and there was, I guess, a couple hours. And then we would go for... There was some period of time where every Tuesday we went and got sushi together. And I told her about what happened in Heroes the night before. It was like our main content.

You were basically doing like an in-person podcast where you were just kind of recapping what happened to her. Yes. And I still love that format. Like I have a lot of friends. It's more like my friends that don't watch reality TV, but would enjoy hearing about reality TV. And I'm like, let me tell you about what happened on X on the Beach you know what I'm saying and so heroes like I save the cheerleader save

the world although I feel like that show if the writer's strike hadn't happened I feel like that would have been like one of my favorite shows of all time but then for those of you who weren't familiar with the writer's strike or at least yeah exactly then with the one not the most recent one the one

back in like 2007 i think it was yeah exactly exactly it really like then i don't know the whole show got really screwed up yeah yeah i mean this was also a show it's really interesting and especially coming from the world of reality tv and seeing like their relationship with their fans it was interesting to see how heroes responded to theirs which was like oh you like these characters we're really gonna push them forward at the cost of other ones theirs which was like oh you like these characters we're really gonna push them forward at the cost of other ones where it's like oh you really like peter petrelli well great we're gonna make him the most overpowered man in the world and then take away all his powers then give him all his powers back again like yeah it was clear that it was almost

the opposite of what you like in terms of storytelling where it started as an ensemble drama and everyone was scattered to the way and i love that right i love i loved the like interconnection of like oh my god he's her father yeah yeah but then eventually it sort of then became okay now that they're all tied together well we're gonna have to really push these ones forward as like and then it's also tough with superpowers as well as to there's always got to be a bigger bad so it's like okay how do we scale up their powers but not in a way that like makes them liable to take over the entire world if they wanted to so you know uh josh and i watched we watched the first season last year for down the hatch and it certainly has its good moments uh i

do think maybe there's a little bit of like nostalgia goggles on superhero style towards it, but like it was definitely solid, especially for the first season of a show. Like it, it went pretty audacious. I have not rewatched it since that time, but my memory is that that first season is like so good. Like that,

that's the energy and like genius and like all the different, well, I just, I was so, I was so into it. I loved it. Okay. You brought up down to hatch. Yeah. Should we talk about lost? I mean, I mean, genius and like all the different well i just i was so i was so into it i loved it okay you brought up down a hatch yeah should we talk about lost i mean i mean listen you were mentioning desperate

housewives you were mentioning gray's anatomy you're mentioning heroes and it's like there's one particular abc show that has yet to be mentioned at this point i wasn't gonna pull the band-aid i was i was cursing waiting for you to do such. No, I mean, probably lost was like the number one show of this era for me, for sure. I mean, it is the best. And we've DM about this.

I am a big down the hatch fan. And so I haven't, I didn't watch, didn't listen to all that, but at some point I fell off in the down the hatch listening, but I listened to a lot of the episodes and I'm a little bit obsessed with you. And I'm a little bit obsessed with Josh. And that's just like one of our things and we

just have to move through that to be friends and I love Lost. Okay, I started watching Lost. My best friend Miranda, who I just saw and her two-year-old baby, we've all gotten so old and she watched the first two seasons of Lost

and she was my best friend and she just told me everything that happened. And I remember like- She did what you did with Heroes to your mom. Exactly. And I'm like, there's a hatch. Like, I don't know. Like it just sounded crazy, but I was like interested.

And then again, this is another one, video iPod, an important part of my watching journey. How many gigs was this video iPod? You're storing so many episodes of TV. I feel like so much. And I probably spent like hundreds of dollars. like that's how they get you it's those micro transactions oh yeah oh yeah like bad definitely bad i mean lost lost is so good i mean it's it's it's it's flawed we all know it's flawed we know it had mysteries that it didn't know the answers to

but aren't we all aren Aren't we fucking all? And in the sideways, it all worked out, you know? It's like everyone who before they got on the plane was doing fucked up shit. And like, they're all broken people. But what's mattered is they came to the island at that particular time and made them who they were to sit on the church.

That's exactly right. Like, don't tell me what I can't do. You know, like, it's just, I mean, it's so good. I don't even know what to say about it. Like, I really did love it. I really, again, for me, it's all, this is why I like reality TV too. It's all about the human drama.

Like, it's all about the human backstories and the human flaws and the relationships. And Lost is all about that. You know, it's like all the things. Faye, give me your favorite character at this moment, if I were to ask it of you hard i i mean i think kate was my ultimate like emotional like in the universe where jj abrams stayed on and kate is the main character i think it's my favorite show ever of all time forever forever forever forever like yeah i mean that to me she's like yeah she's the

fucking badass one she knows how to do all this stuff she can track you don't know why you know like she like um yeah it's Kate I mean like all like I'd say Kate's son like I the women characters especially Juliet Juliet really really speaks

to me I mean Juliet she's an she ultimately is an other and so I'll never like care about her as much as some of the other ones but yes um yeah k2 exactly you're you're like sticking with you're an 815 originalist i'm an 815 on the island and specifically front of plane you know it's like uh what's her name no ana lucia yeah yeah i mean yeah sure like yes but like come on never gonna care about i mean if you want an ultimate representation about that we are flawed as humans look at no further than Michelle Rodriguez as Ana Lucia Cortez yeah that's

right that's right but I feel so she wanted to be on the show you know and it's good that they it's good that they let her you know I feel yeah yeah so you got into Lost One like around like season three or so was this like later later I think season three was probably airing but I went back and watched the first ones and probably like caught up in then and then it was like or was this like later later I think season three was probably airing but I went back and watched the

first ones and probably like caught up in them and then it was like there was this I took chemistry in I was in ninth grade I was in ninth grade and I graduated high school in 2010 so this must have been 2006

2006 2007 and there was like a cool guy in the chemistry class who was like older and he was watching Lost and me and my friend Miranda we were like the nerds in the chemistry class and he was like the older not nerd like kind of like you know

like not good at school kid and the three of us would talk about Lost after you know so that was like a five o'clock shadow. Yeah. Like that's how he is in my head too. But like, I don't know if that's real, but like, and I don't remember his name. Um, yeah, so it was that era, but I really like, yeah, really stuck with it all the way through the sideways and the, but I, I remember actually, I, I listened to the down the hash ones about that because I'm like, I don't even remember

what that was. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I was a little, like, blurry and young in the memory of that, you know? Yeah, season six is tough. I mean, it's definitely the one that I was the blurriest on because it's the one that I've rewatched the least just because it is certainly regarded, and I tend to agree, as, like, the weakest season.

So I'm yet less like, I don't know if I want to spend as much time here. Because even the on-island stuff as well as well as like really hit or miss by comparison yeah although it does all come back because CJ Craig is the mom she's mother yeah she's mother yeah she is quite literally mother I listen not a not a great appearance for Alice and Janie one of the very rare misappearances but it's not her fault it'sances, but it's not her fault. It's not her fault. But I loved, you know, I really loved the era. My favorite

era of all that stuff is like, I mean the first season is like one of the best seasons of TV ever of all time. But then I talk about another show that like just comes in hot for the first season and makes so many bold choices and is able to, for the most part, succeed on them. So fucking good. And then I really, I love all the daniel

faraday time time loops i love time loops i love the jack and or i'm sorry sawyer and juliet in the other time i even love the like adam and eve bodies like understanding that like all that shit i i studied human evolution in history yeah so i So I'm like, I, yeah. Like that you like loop back around and like understand the deep past in the present level. Yeah. I was going to say, does that just like general, uh, tenant carry into being a fan of like sci-fi pieces that deal with a lot of that time travel?

Definitely. But it's all in the, it's like, I think it's all related of like, I liked him. I like human evolution because it's history. It's like the intersection of like history, science, and like human interest, you know? And same with these kinds of shows where it's, it's, it's science, but it's, or like, there's like a science element, but it's deeply connected to human stuff.

Like my PhD is about humans and Neanderthals interbreeding and how that affects our biology today. Like that's like the shit I love of like, there's this crazy stuff that happened in the insanely deep past. We're talking about like 40,000 years ago. And yet that affects your biology today, Mike Bloom and my biology today. Like that's insane,

you know? And that's, yeah. Like, I love that shit. Have you ever watched the X-Files? No. Okay. Oh my God. Which by the way, Breaking Bad, bad another one of my shows i didn't even write on my list actually that's probably

like i mean no listen i was gonna say that's a constant example of like that suburban lifestyle now granted it has a little bit more lasting effects than the typical stuff you're into uh but yeah x-files i mean what you're speaking to is granted it's a little more fantastical but like the pairing is that you have fox molder who is like this he is a government agent but he is certainly much more of a quote-unquote believer but then you have scully who is like this hardcore scientist and at least early on they tried to bridge it into like some sort of scientific explanation behind things and sometimes there is like quite literally elements of human evolution involved oh i think you'd really enjoy it listen i would also say jillian anderson is also could could be up there

with uh your mary louise parkers and uh your evangeline lily is like uh she's great she's fantastic you're getting the type okay i gotta check that out i gotta check that out wait i feel like i had something else to say about like lost something i don't know all that stuff i love that stuff i really it's all that to me the core of all the things it's people but then i love to put it in like the complex circumstance you know not a hot take at all but like that yeah is there is there a show that you have yet to see that you feel like you should or that you really want to. It just obviously has not fallen into your queue just yet. Wow, that's such a good question. Could you name some shows that are like that for other people?

And I'll tell you. For me, it's The Sopranos. I've never seen it before. I know I want to. So in my top surgery recovery, I watched all of The Sopranos. And I'll just tell you, you should watch it. It is as good as people say. Okay.

It's definitely, I mean, it has the thing of the same era of Lost where it's like, there's so many episodes. Like, you know, it's not even more. But it is, it's so weird because it's like, my political beliefs are very like forefront for me as a person right it's so funny how much I really was so drawn into the Sopranos universe despite having like not a single relatable character to me like in any way shape or form you know but you know I don't know I came out I was drinking whiskey I was drinking uh Walker scotch. I was like, I don't know.

It just was really good. And it's just also, you know, amazing acting, obviously, is like a huge part of it. Sopranos is super good. But no, I've watched that. So check, not on the list. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like other ones that other people have.

Yeah, what are like some of those like core ones? I mean, I've certainly, I've gotten people on this podcast onto Succession as an example. Yes, I saw that. Loved it. Saw that. Loved it. Okay, here's one. Okay, so I'm a huge 30 Rocker. Like, love 30 Rock. Love The Office. Randomly have not seen a single episode of Parks and Recreation.

Okay, I think you'd really like it, especially from this aspect of again this community yeah first season like both of those shows is a little hit and miss but like once they find their tone in season two I personally love it now look I think uh certainly perhaps like appeal and watching things around the government for some people might be at an all-time low but I think also if you're looking for an opportunity to explore like what small government and optimism and joy can bring to a community I absolutely recommend it

so where does that fall okay we've got like West Wing which I've seen then there's Parks and Rec which I haven't seen and Veep which I also haven't seen where are those on like the doom scroll like I think Veep is probably like it's like dark right or so Veep is dark but it's so

cathartic at the same time like i think if you want just an incredibly good like scorching takedown of the people that are involved in the front and back rooms of politics veep is maybe one of the best written shows i've ever experienced like Like it is just so wild. It is such a good cast. However, I could absolutely see considering that Parks and Rec, you could sort of like displace your mind to be like, well, we don't really meet anybody in the White House. It just takes place in Pawnee, Indiana. Like if,

if you feel like it's getting a bit too close to the throne in a manner of speaking with Veep, then I would say definitely, you know, leave it by the wayside but if that's okay with you like god okay i think i think i'm probably in like a dark enough mood that that will probably be right for me so i think that's probably the one yeah and it's it's sort of in the sort of seinfeld and even succession mold we're like okay there really isn't anyone there really isn't anyone to root for like they're all pretty bad people which is why they kind of all work in this high level of politics in the first place but the comedy is involved

in that. Okay as a New York Jew another big flaw in my catalog is I've like never watched Seinfeld and people just say references at me and like and it's you're correct like that's correct to stereotype me as someone that would have seen Seinfeld,

but I have not. I have seen some of, um, her beer enthusiasm and it's like too intense. It's too intensely cringe for me. Yeah. So arrested development. Wow.

There's so many shows. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you haven't seen arrested development. No, no, I have seen arrested.

I love arrested. Yeah. Like it is incredible. So yeah, Seinfeld, obviously not as cringy as Curb, because Curb had the commercial-free runtime. Like, they really like to sit down in those scenes and just... I can't even, I like, I literally have to cover my eyes when I watch it. It makes me so uncomfortable. Now, what I would say is that Seinfeld certainly has its misses sometimes. It sometimes does sort of show the mark of its era, but especially when it starts getting kicked off.

And I speak as someone who only recently got into Seinfeld. I say recently, it was probably like 10 years ago that I watched Seinfeld for the first time. But that is recent for Seinfeld, yeah. Yeah, I guess it's a grand spectrum of my life, my own timeline of human evolution. But like, as someone who has watched it, when it's good, it is so good.

Like, and it has like an awkward, like five episode first season. But once you get past that, even stuff starting with seasons two and three, before it really gets going in four, there's like some stuff and you'll do the sort of, uh,

uh, consistent Leo pointing at the screen meme of like, okay, now I understand what it means by you can't spare a square or the Chinese restaurant or anything like that. Yep. Yep. Okay. That's on the list. Okay. Mike, I have two shows for you. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Okay, great. I feel you've probably not seen either of these,

but I'm just making an assumption. Okay. One's old, one's new. Old. Have you seen the original L Word, Mike? Okay. So I have seen an episode or maybe a couple of episodes. I remember I spoke, we spoke about, we had Izzy on a while back and spoke about it a lot with her. And I was like, this is very intriguing to me. It's, it's just like everything you want out of like a messy, campy, sometimes really good,

but mostly not really good, dramedy situation. Like it's just got it all. And it's like, I think it's really lovely. I think it's really worth a watch. I really do. I really, it's just, it's extremely entertaining. It's really fun. Now, did you not suggest the reboot for like quality reasons

or you just haven't seen it? Well, no, I've seen it all. I've seen it all I've seen it all I think the I mean the original is just like mwah you know like chef's kiss the new I the new is good I think it's I'm not like it's must watch in the same way like I feel like the new suffers from like it's not different

it's not actually all the way good because it's still built off the original thing which is kind of bad but the original thing is bad in the good way. You know what I mean? But the thing is, okay, there's a really good auto straddle, which is like

a queer and lesbian news website and has podcasts and stuff. They have a really good rewatch podcast of the L word. So I did a lot of watching the L word and listening to the auto straddle podcast of it. And the L word,

the first season of the L word has like a really good finale. Like one of like, like it's like a deeply good episode of TV. The rest of the first season is so the show has so much bad, like, like, like, but that first episode,

I really remember the host of the podcast being like it's like it's the equivalent of like you at the end of the the end of the year of school you turn in this paper and it's like so good that the teacher's like furious at you for being such a bad student all year like that's like the l word has these episodes where you're like what the fuck that was like, like you were capable of this? Yeah, exactly. And the fact that you were capable of this means it's like actually so much more disappointing

how bad some of these episodes were. But like, it's just really, it's lovely. And it's like the only show that lesbians had for so long, you know? And it just like, it has a lot of problems, but it also like is canon to a whole culture you know so it's i think you'll like it mike honestly i really i think no like you really i think it strikes gold for me we're like yeah it's awesome representation matters especially

at that time but like at the same time there's also a lot of great schlock i can't believe they're doing this quality to it exactly it's also's also like goofy as hell. Like it's very. I think you'll like it. Yeah, I think you'll like it. All right. Another one. And I think this one's kind of like better like is fellow travelers. Have you seen this? Okay. I feel like I've heard the name,

but like give me the elevator pitch on fellow travelers. This was another one I watched during top surgery. It's also available on Paramountount plus so i'm sure that most of the listeners of this have access um it's basically it takes place the most of the show takes place in like mccarthy era washington so again we're going back to my west wing kind of politicsy roots um but it the main characters are two gay men and this is like in an era where it's extremely illegal and you'll get fired and blacklisted for being gay um but one of them is like deep in the establishment kind of like uh he knows how to navigate this world and one of

them is newer to it and basically those are the centers the newer one is jonathan bailey uh you can see him now in wicked uh yeah and the older one is the guy who was like in white collar matt bowmer yeah yes yes why i loved in the normal heart uh i remember i haven't actually seen that but yeah oh it's devastating but it's so good um but oh my god yes okay so now i remember this i remember hearing the name and i was trying to associate with but yeah that's the big jonathan bailey piece that came out last year it's really good it's really good it's really like it's devastating it's like but it's got like a lot like yeah it's like the politics the intrigue the like sneaking around some i feel like there's like angels of america stuff in there like it eventually it takes you through

kind of gay history in a way which i think i've read reviews that like i think that's like not in the book and some of that feels a little tacked on which i agree it does feel a little tacked on but it's also really good like and and also like deep emotional exploration of men like it's it's it's got good stuff highly highly recommend oh man i i'm a huge jonathan bailey fan uh sasha and i are both like such uh bridgerton season two fans and like i saw wicked yesterday and god he was like he's so good and i literally i watched like i probably watched half of fellow travelers before i was like oh my god that's the same guy as the guy in Bridgerton because he's just

he fully embodies a completely different character such that if you look at the pictures, you're like, of course, these are both Jonathan Bailey but if you watch them move and talk you're like, those cannot possibly be the same person. It's incredible. It's incredible. Oh my god. Well, I

love this we both have homework to walk away from so i guess i'm gonna have to you know we'll have to quit smoking weed because we have to get back into our academics uh i mean but i'll be watching seinfeld so i don't know exactly well last thing i want to do is evie i mean you talk about again really finding your groove in these shows that are all about communities of complicated people and i think it's a perfect way to set up what you're happening to be doing. We're recording this Saturday night. And then tomorrow, December 1st,

you are doing something absolutely fantastic with the reality TV community. Why don't you plug what you got going on? That's right. Thank you so much, Mike. So tomorrow or whenever you listen to us, this is happening on Sunday, December 1st, from 3 to 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. I am bringing together at least 12,

no, actually now it's 13 survivor players and our podcast is, that's right, a baker's dozen of survivor related people to do an Instagram Live fundraiser for Point of Pride, which is an amazing organization that supports trans people and getting health care and other services that they need. And also even just like doing cute things like writing letters to trans people. Like it's like a really amazing organization. And yeah, I'm trans. I'm non-binary. I'm queer. You've probably if you've listened to this, you might have seen some of my journey of some of those things. And like, it's an extremely scary time to be a person like me

in America. This election was extremely devastating. The conversation after the election was also extremely devastating and like, it feels really scary and bad. And then the thing that feels really good is to feel like we're not alone. And it felt really good to be like, okay, I want to do a fundraiser to help trans people. And I'm going to reach out to survivor players and Oh God, I hope that they're into it. And people were so into it. And like so many people were really excited to be part of it. Some people were like, Oh my God, I can't that day, but I'm devastated because I really want to be part of it.

And like, it's just really nice and good. And it feels really good to know that all these different people are excited to be part of it. I'm just going to like shout out some of the people that you might see if you come to the live there's going to be obviously I'm going to be there we've got Tiffany and Abraham and Queen Erica for my season are going to be there we've got

Jake we've got Ketora and Kelly from season 45 Maddie and Zach and Omer and I'm going to forget people and it's going to be embarrassing. Jacob Derwin is going to be there. What the fuck? That's so fun.

Franny's going to be there. It's just going to be like an amazing day. And then we're going to end with me and Matt and Grace from The Pride Has Spoken and Josh Wiggler. Our half scripted TV legend extraordinaire. I just warmed you up for your first podcast with Josh. No, that's right. That's absolutely right. And it's going to be a really fantastic day.

And already in the advertisement of this, we've already raised $1,000 for Pointer Pride, which is so freaking cool. And if you're looking for the live, you follow me on Instagram at Evie Jag, E-V-V-I-E-J-A-G. And you'll find all the information there. And you can also find the information for how to donate to Point of Pride,

whether or not you can make it. You can submit questions. We're going to be just like chatting and answering survivor questions and talking about stuff. And it's just going to be a really, really nice time. And I appreciate you, Mike, for plugging this, for having me here to plug this. And I just like like it feels good

to oh my god I forgot an amazing thing you know you're thinking about queer gender queer survivor players who comes to the front of your mind today who comes to the front of your mind Mike it's gotta be Teenie it's gotta be Teenie and we got Teenie Teenie's gonna be there it's gonna be really sweet to talk to them

and also Zeke is gonna try to join us he's like a maybe cause he's going to be at Disney World, which we love for him. Yeah. Yeah. So that'll be really sweet. And like, I just feel really honored that so many people are down to be part of it. And yeah, it's going to be good.

Well, I think the reason why they were able to be so gung ho about doing it is because of the person that was at the head of it, Evie. I mean, you know, ever since we were in our dms talking about lost uh after finding out you were a survivor player it's just been such a pleasure to get to know you to become your friend uh and to get to chat with you even more about the stuff that you're into today and to both have lists that we can respectively walk away with and update each other on our progress this was such a delight thank you thanks so much i want want to give you, I want to give you two more quick shout outs because I just want people to know how cool Mike Bloom is. Okay. Two things

I remember in my life about Mike Bloom. One, the survivor cast for my season dropped and it was very anxious for me because I was really wrestling with my gender shit right before that happened. And I had put on my Instagram that I use they slash them pronouns and the cast dropped. And you know what? Mike Bloom DMs me to ask how he should relate to my pronouns and what to use. And it was really, really, really nice that someone in that field would actually just ask me. And that was really moving and important for me. And then number two, you took the picture of me and Tini with our respective top surgeries a few weeks ago or months ago or whatever. I know it feels like a few days ago but

yeah i mean that survivor drop an event i mean that was that was awesome and again that's how representation matters you know even just to see like the two of you getting to show that off and to see you know i'm sure even from your perspective you had wondered if there was someone that could you know you could even connect with over your experience but only to have tini come in who i think summarily was also inspired by your experience yeah which like it's cool talk about you know evolution amanda or speaking must be such a trip for you that's right so it's beautiful you're beautiful thanks for having me mike likewise evie i'm so excited to check out the event tomorrow there'll be plenty of friends there and i hope you all are there as well. And check out more TV for real. Sasha will be back as we say that the two thirds Evie

will return with another reality TV contestant. To be clear, I'm the two thirds. She's the three thirds. I guess. Yeah, I guess she would then be what? Like the three thirds Evie? Yeah, four thirds, four thirds or something. That's again, why I'm a human abolitionist.

Exactly. Well, no matter what, we'll be back next week with another reality TV contestant talking their taste in scripted TV. Thank you all so much for listening until next time, everybody. It's been real.