RHAP: We Know Survivor - Who’s the Survivor GOAT? – Tony Vlachos

Episode Date: June 7, 2026

Who’s the Survivor GOAT? – Tony Vlachos Who is the greatest player in Survivor history? On this special series, Survivor’s Rob Cesternino welcomes Mike Bloom to debate and analyze the journey and legacy of Tony Vlachos, one of the game’s legends, as Survivor’s big moves era takes center stage. In this first installment of the five-part “Survivor GOAT” series, Rob and Mike dig deep into Tony’s path from Cagayan chaos to winner’s circle in Winners at War. The episode launches with Mike making the case for Tony as the greatest of all time, spotlighting Tony’s adaptability, boldness, and game-breaking creativity—like burying himself to eavesdrop in Tribal Council and masterminding the “spy shack.” The discussion highlights pivotal moments, including Tony’s dominant win in Winners at War against a stacked cast of returning champions and his unpredictable run in Cagayan. Rob, tasked with playing devil’s advocate, challenges whether Tony’s gameplay is truly repeatable and questions the role of luck, social mishaps, and key relationships—like his unique bond with Sarah Lacina—in Tony’s success. Key topics on the table include: – Tony’s “lions vs. hyenas” strategy and its impact on the Winners at War dynamics – The wild swings and frenetic moves of Tony’s Cagayan run, including idol plays and the infamous “top five, baby” celebration – The influence of production twists like the Tyler Perry idol and Tony’s clever manipulation of idol rules – The social relationships that helped (and sometimes hurt) Tony, with special focus on Sarah Lacina and Trish Hegarty – Debating if Tony’s high-risk, high-reward style could work in different Survivor eras Rob and Mike examine whether Tony’s legendary moments and outsized personality truly add up to GOAT status, or if his record-setting wins simply belong to the big moves era alone. Is Tony’s Survivor blueprint one that anyone could replicate—or is he truly a one-of-a-kind unicorn? Tune in as Rob and Mike open this Survivor GOAT series with Tony Vlachos, and get set for the Sandra Diaz-Twine debate next time! Chapters: 0:00 Who Is Survivor’s Goat? Series Launch 1:05 Tony Vlachos and the Tony Awards 2:01 Five Goat Candidates Revealed 2:43 Mike Champions Tony as Greatest 5:16 Tony’s Winners at War Dominance 9:01 Did Tony Defeat the Other Goats? 10:13 Lions and Hyenas Strategy Debated 14:21 Tony’s Adaptability and Quick Thinking 18:46 Tony’s Bond With Sarah Analyzed 22:19 Edge of Extinction and Tony’s Jury 24:15 Body of Work vs. Finished Product 31:40 Idol Lies and Production Manipulation 39:03 Trish and Lindsey’s Impact on Tony 42:01 Final Two Twist: Wu’s Decision 45:24 Tony’s Temperament and Social Game 50:23 Should Australian Survivor Count? 54:57 Tony Ushered in Big Moves Era 57:06 Tony’s Long-Term Survivor Legacy 1:00:10 Tony Sparked RHAP Online Community 1:03:08 Mike Wins Coin Flip for Sandra 1:05:21 Mike’s Ongoing Survivor Coverage To order Rob’s book, The Tribe and I Have Spoken, visit www.robhasabook.com Never miss a minute of RHAP’s extensive Survivor coverage! LISTEN: Subscribe to the Survivor podcast feed WATCH:  Watch and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube SUPPORT:  Become a RHAP Patron for bonus content, access to Facebook and Discord groups plus more great perks!

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days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.com. Hey, everybody, what's going on? Rob Cestrinino, back with you to talk to Mike Bloom about a question that we are asking here in this series of podcast, who is Survivor's Goat? And today, on the menu, a man who is one survivor, not once, but twice. Let's find out. is Tony Vlachos the goat? And to talk about that, I have a fellow New Jersey resident. Give it up for Mike Bloom. Bloom like the garden, of which our beautiful state is nickname. Yes, Rob. I mean, appropriately, I mean, the coin, Magic Coin decided how this would all play out. But this is being

released on the day of the Tony Awards as well. Oh, wow. Okay, SEO win for us as we discuss the Tonys. And we're talking about a guy who is known for creating some tribal counsel theatrics as well. So it's very appropriate to the occasion. Yeah. Okay. And so this is a five-part series. If you're just joining us here for the first time, this is the first of this series where week by week we're going to go through one of our five potential candidates for who is Survivor's Goat. Those will be in alphabetical order. Let's see if I can get this right. It's going to be Tony, Sandra, Rob, Parvety, Surrey. Not me. not me, Boston Rob, not Bob.

Imagine, imagine we discussed who's the goat, and then I was also in the contention. I mean, speaking of that, Rob, we did get, you know, a lot of responses to our initial podcast that we did introducing this entire concept. People saying, you know, where's Aubrey, where's Kim,

where's Jeremy? So maybe that'll be the next experiment is trying to figure out, like, who, if we got five, let's make it 10 by the end of the summer. Listen, maybe that could be if we end up getting to the end of this, to people are like, hey, you really need to make the case for this person, make the case for this person. I think that, listen, if it's that successful, we'll be happy to do it. But today,

it's all about Tony. So Mike and I have decided that we were going to flip a coin before each of these episodes. And I do have the coin around here somewhere, because we'll flip it at the end of this episode. We're going to flip a coin. It's not a Mr. Beast coin. It is a half dollar. And Tony dealt with his own coin flip and his winners at war, right? Michelle flipped that 50-50 coin. Yep. And so we will flip the coin at the end of this podcast and we will talk about who will be making the case for Sandra being the goat and who will be in the unenviable position of making the devil's advocate argument against Sandra. But that's next week. For this episode, Mike Bloom and I flip the coin and Mike Bloom is going to be the person who is making the case

for Tony as the goat. And I will be in a very undesirable position for me. And I will be in a very undesirable position for me of having to be the devil's advocate against Tony. Mike, I know you're not the biggest WWE wrestling guy. Have you ever seen the meme, the GIF sometimes of that Sean Michaels is in a match against Rick Flair and Rick Flair is all bloody. He's old. He's not doing great. And Sean Michaels goes and he has to, that the band is warming up.

It's time for sweet chin music. And he doesn't want to. He doesn't want. That's his finishing move. It's a kick to the side of the face. Knocks a person out. They call it sweet chin music. It's Sean Michael's finishing move.

But that's his hero, Rick Flair. He doesn't want to give Rick Flair the sweet chin music. But he has to. That's what his job is. Chin music sounds like some sort of like euphemism for like, you talk too much. You're giving too much chin music. Stop moving that thing up and down.

Sweet chin music. Yeah. It's a kid. to the face. It's a like a, you know, a side kick to the face, if you could imagine. So yeah, let's, we talked about this in the intro podcast, but I think it bears repeating as a disclaimer at the top of this. The opinions, arguments that are going to be remade are not necessarily representative of the opinions of Rob's Screening. I'm the heartbreak kid. I'm in this position that I have to give the sweet chin music to my hero. That's the thing, is that let me

to, you know, dip my toes into the ring myself and say that these podcasts require a face and a heel. It requires someone coming in here and trying to poke holes in some of these arguments. We're simply doing what fans have been doing in time memoriam, 26 years on strong. It doesn't mean that we're going to be haters. It just means that we have to represent the opposite viewpoint in the who's the goat debate. So, Mike, where do you want to start talking about the survivor career and legacy of Tony Vlachos? Yeah, so we were talking about, like, what's the best way to structure? So maybe this will change as it goes along.

We're very open era in this way of we don't know how we're going to structure every single podcast. But I thought it might be best. Like a Boston Rob. We might just get better every time. Exactly. But it might be best if we sort of did more of a piecemeal back and forth. You know, unlike perhaps a proper debate, I'm not going to give an entire like five-minute

opening salvo and then you respond. It's a conversation. It's a conversation, exactly. So settle in, folks. because, in my opinion, we can just stop the series right after this, okay? The series last.

We can be one and done here because I am going to talk to you all about a man who was able to somehow be the most colorful character in survivor history, yet remain quite literally obscured by Flora and Fauna, someone who was able to, in his second win, third season overall, bury himself underground to not get detected nor receive a single vote amongst a stacked cast and who eventually

like a bird in a nest was able to take flight and soar above so many survivor grades. This is why Tony Blakos is the greatest survivor player of all time. And it has to start here, Rob, with one of the most basic arguments that I've seen been used around the internet for the better part of six years, which is Tony is not, of course, the only two-time winner. He is one of only three, two, depending on we'll get to that part, I'm sure, in this series as to you know how the international seasons get factored into it. But I think some would argue that Tony has maybe two of the most impressive two-time-winning seasons in Survivor history, not only due to Kagayan, which had a very stacked cast, especially for a newbie season,

But I think really the crown jewel in the two crowns he has accrued over the course of his time in the game is the fact that he was the winner of all winners. In the Super Bowl season of Survivor, winners at war, he was the MVP. And he was able to not only beat out what some would consider the most stacked cast in Survivor history strategically. some of the people we're going to be talking about in this very series were sharing a beach with him, but he was able to do it without getting a single vote for 39 days. Yeah.

Very impressive win, and I don't want to take anything away from Tony who has entertained me for years on the television show because I've always talked about Tony as being a unicorn, of being somebody who was a dominant player, but also a very fun character. And I think throughout the history, of Survivor, more often than not, your biggest characters are not always the best players and

vice versa. Many of Survivor's great players have been able to win the game by not being the center of attention, and Tony often is. And so I think he is truly unique in that case. But I think that just because that he is one of Survivor's most electric players, I don't think that he's necessarily Survivor's best players. So I think that we could talk about, I guess let me, discuss the last thing you brought up of that the crutch argument is Tony is the best player because he won the season of all the winners. And so thus, because he won the season with all the winners and did so in a rather dominant fashion, he is inherently the best player. And so I would say to that that he did not do a lot of the people we're talking about on this list.

he actually played no part whatsoever in knocking. There's three other people that are on this list of Rob and Tony, I said Rob and Parvety and Sandra. He played no part whatsoever in getting Rob out or getting Parvety out. And actually, Sandra had concocted a plan to actually take him out unknowing to Tony. And then had it not been for Denise thinking that, that Sandra was actually the bigger threat, turning around on Denise,

Tony would have been out of this game pre-merge. So I think that there's a lot that goes into any survivor win, and because of that, that I don't know necessarily if the cast of winners at war are automatically the 20 best players in Survivor history. Well, I could see that argument, especially, listen, there's been a lot of comments that have been talked about when it comes to the boot list of a survivor

winners at war. But you could argue that yes, while Tony did not directly impact those three people specifically going, a lot of that was by design. We're going to talk about the fact that Tony, I think, was able to coin, if not create himself a lot of tried and true strategies that still carry forward to this day with some other standout players that we see in the most recent seasons of the show. And he brings up this idea of hyenas and lions. This is a concept that has been essentially in existence since your second season. Rob, it comes with every returning player season that perception is reality,

but perception outside of the game is foundational to said reality. And I think that he made a very conscious effort to say like, hey, look, look at these lions going. We need to work together. Let's surround ourselves with these threats when the game turns individual to make sure that, okay,

we don't have a takeover from Wendell, from Adam, from Jeremy, from Michelle. Look at that post-merge. Who were the first two boots there? Wendell and Adam. Not to say that Tony directly influenced things and was like they weren't in danger before, but I'm going to steer the votes towards them.

But I think, listen, we talk about this with Survivor all the time, going all the way back to Australian Outback. We'll talk about a decision that Colby Donaldson makes that perhaps will be very similar to one that gives Tony his first win, but it was due in part to this ethos that was sort of propagated throughout the season

of like, we want a good person to win. We don't want the bad people to win. And so the power of propaganda can help a lot in a game, especially like Survivor, when you're creating this society. And Tony being able to, I think, unite people around this idea of like,

look at all these big names that are going out. As fellow big names, it doesn't incentivize us to work together to try to turn, you know, keep out those that could take us out ordinarily, goes to show that, yes, while Tony did not directly have a hand in defeating the other people on this list.

The other people on this list, specifically Boston Rob, were sitting on that jury in absolute awe of what Tony was able to pull off, I would say arguably because they were sitting on the jury. Yeah. Fair points, Mike. I would push back on the Lions versus the hyenas because I think that Lions versus Hyenas,

I think was concepts of a play. But I don't know if it was necessarily ultimately a plan that actually took hold. Yes, Wendell and Adam end up going out. But then Tyson is the next person. A lion of lions. He wears a lion ring. So I don't think that it necessarily was something that took hold in terms of, I think it was a useful thing to get through a couple of votes.

But I don't think it's necessarily that Tony wasn't. at the end of the game, with all due respect, with Lions. When we're at the final six and final seven, and he's there with Sarah and Ben and Denise and Nick and Michelle, and maybe that is, I'm not sure if that's six, but it's not that he engineered this plan to be able to get the, all of the lions to the end of the game. And there's a lot of hyenas there still. Right. I would definitely agree with that.

But I think in this case, it's not necessarily about keeping the entire pride. It's perhaps maintaining your pride by keeping one or two very specific lines. And I think we see this in the case with Jeremy. I think Jeremy is a fantastic example. And it's so interesting because we'll get into this in a little bit as well as to, you know, you have Jeremy who, of course, coins this meat shield strategy in his own season. Tony has claimed that Jeremy took the concept from him. You know, he talks about in Kagayan how he feels that Trish and Spencer were buffers.

for him, which is why he kept them later in the game to protect him. And Tony is able to use Jeremy's cut own strategy kind of not necessarily against him here, but to his own advantage where Jeremy is consistently on the chopping block again and again and again. And in arguably, I mean, I can't say actually his most impressive move. That's another great thing about him is like he has several Hall of Fame moves contained in one person. But when he's able to pull off this four three to vote on Sophie, he is saving Jeremy specifically to serve his own motive, which is to get rid of Sophie to suit his own game.

While Simonte is like keeping in somebody who's going to get voted out the next episode to help protect Tony here. Yeah, I don't know if we ever talked about this at the time and I know I'm making the counter argument against Tony, but he starts with lions and hyenas, and that gets him through a little bit, but I think that the things are starting to get away from him

where Sarah is getting strong. She's got Kim, she's got Sophie. And it seems like that there's like a women's alliance that he's not directly, like they're not going for him, but he's losing power. And then he is able to shift things. And he ends up doing the blind side of Sophie and Sarah then has no other option than to put this group back together. But really, Jeremy, who plays with Spencer, now Ryman, in second chance, that, but Jeremy in some ways, like, becomes the Spencer here of, oh, okay, that this is the useful ally that I'm not ultimately going to the end with this person, but when I have something that suits me, I'll bring it to him and we'll work together to be able to

get me to where I need to go. Yes, that's a really good way to put it. And that's one of the things I really appreciate of Tony's game of many is I would argue he might be the most adaptable player in Survivor history. Now, we'll talk about that a little bit when it comes to obviously his ability to change his own game and change the perception of him in these initial stages of winners of war, which were so crucial considering that he ends up being a very early flameout in game changers. But I think even looking at that scenario, right, where Tony, he's observational for lack of a

better term. This man would not have built several spy franchise levels of hideouts to peer in on what people are talking about if he was not an observational man. And so he's able to pick up on subtly changing dynamics. And yes, sometimes these are a little bit of false. false flag. You bring up the the rumblings of a women's alliance. It's one of the reasons why he gets rid of Jeffra in

Kagayan is because he's like, okay, I see the women talking in the water, but I think it speaks to, perhaps again, unlike some of the other people we're going to get into, Tony is a very quick thinker. And sometimes that can veer on the side of too frenetic and too paranoid, but

you can never accuse him of necessarily sitting idly by while he feels like an opportunity is there to grasp. He saw that, okay, Sophie's getting close with Sarah. If there is something that is brewing, we could easily be outnumbered. And not only was he able to take Sophie out, but he was able to keep Sarah on his side. She was fuming at him.

She literally told him, if I am voted out after this, I will never talk to you again in my life. But he is able to carry so much favor through all this damage control and his assets. He offers publicly to play an idol on her at the very next vote. And so he's able to find. these ways to not only take these opportunities and strike while the iron is hot, but then simultaneously able to like temper his tools, for lack of a better term, to make sure they're not bent from striking said iron. Yeah, it really is impressive how he's able to pivot.

He is so quick. I think that that quickness gets him to be, to make some mistakes also. I think the thing about Tony is that he does make a lot of mistakes, but then he also is so quick that he sometimes then doubles back around and fixes the mistakes after he makes them. I have a hard time with trying to reconcile that Sarah in that spot is somebody who he has this very close relationship with. It feels like I don't know what part of it is skill and what part of it is that he was just lucky that I don't know if there's any other person or survivor player in the world in that spot that forgives him and rejoins him. that he just is so fortunate that another person who he has this relationship of how many years in

between Winners at War and Kagi has a six-year relationship with Sarah that somebody from his original season then goes on to play and wins another season and they have this extremely close relationship where they are talking for many, many years of preparing. And I'm not even saying anything nefarious of pre-game alliance, but just that he happened to have a person here who knows him to this degree outside of the game. It just is like, is that in any way repeatable? I would say so. And look, I think that, yes, of course, the two have a very tight, preexisting relationship.

But that has to be an asterisk on any returning player season. And in fact, we can talk about someone in Boston Rob, who had those close ties and got burned in his second season because of that. That knife can easily cut the other way. Where yes, Sarah and Tony have this beautiful moment in firemaking where she goes out and, you know, she votes for him to win, but it can easily be a situation where she's like, screw you. We had this going.

And we said for years we would go to the end. And why did you burn me again? But it speaks to, I think, a really understated facet of Tony's game, which is his sociability. I think we are so focused on the strategic side and the hypergaming that he does. And throughout Kagayan and winners of war to a certain extent, we sat there every week saying, how is he getting away with this? Now, look,

the interesting thing about Kagayan obviously is the fact that I don't think anyone was really clocking that much. But the exception of, interestingly enough, Sophie Clark, perhaps, in one of the most infamous podcasts in R&JP history of like, oh yeah, this guy definitely, he's got his pulse on the game. He's set up to win no matter what. he was too kooky of a character.

But this is a guy who was able to get done when he was able to get done. It's easier to call it on the podcast than in real life. Exactly. But he was able to get done when he was able to get done because he has a general affability and likability about him.

Yes, certainly he angered people from time to time. Certainly he did. But I remember at the time, especially of Kagayan, there were so many comparisons between him and Russell hands, whether it was the screen hog presence,

whether it was the idle hound nature of him, him. But there's a reason why Tony won two jury votes and Russell did not. Because at the end of the day, even if people like Trish and Jeffra felt and Sarah felt so incredibly burned by him, they still had something there. Tony still felt in a way, and certainly it was deferential to them in a way on day 39, to make them feel like the relationship they had built was not a fabrication, that truly they had built something together, ironically enough, for the man who lied that he was a construction worker for the first two weeks of the game. Yeah. Listen, if you want to talk about Survivor Kagayan, that's one, I think we can really point. I poke a lot of holes in the game that Tony plays

in Survivor Kagy on. But I just think that maybe we should finish talking through winners of war, because I think that there's a lot more there still in terms of Tony and what he does. he does not go to many pre-merged tribal councils. So he is fortunate on that front where he goes to the one where Tyson gets voted out. I'm sorry. He goes to three out of eight, which is, you know, especially for this modern day survivor, is not nothing. Yeah. And then he also is dealing.

with in the final three, going up against Natalie, who is returning from the edge of extinction, where it is a season 38, where people have left right after that, where people did not want to vote for a winner

who came back from the edge of extinction. Yeah, I would say that, but also you have to look at the entire concept of the edge of extinction, which is, hey, go live with the jury, 24-7.

And as we saw in season 38, Natalie came into the game in the finale, essentially with a game plan of like, this is what you have to do to get, not only make it to the final three, but to win. And Chris was able to succeed on every single front there. And Natalie did not,

because the chief thing that she was told to do which she will tell everybody when she returns from the edge is everyone thinks that Tony is doing everything and everyone else are his sheep. It is her primary goal to get Tony out because she's being perceived as the number one threat to win this game

and she cannot do it. He plays an idol at six, he wins immunity at five, he wins firemaking at final four. And she could have taken him into the firemaking and she chose not to. Exactly. And so, yes, you could say that maybe

because of what happened with Chris Underwood, the jury was biased to not necessarily give the win to Natalie. but I still think inherently Tony was up against a concept that was fundamentally disadvantaged against him of like, hey, not only are these people that you voted out, but they got to go hang out with someone who has had no impact in their blindsides whatsoever and could have served as their comfort counselor, their therapist for the better part of 30-something days, to come in and has basically been spoon-fed what she needs to say to win this game. And he still beat her handily. Yeah, listen, Tony did a great job in Winters of War. That it's very hard to say that he did not. I cannot honestly sit here and say that maybe it's maybe the most dominant and impressive win in Survivor history. But I think that that alone does that make him the greatest player in Survivor history.

I could certainly agree with that, but I think it's more so, look, one of the reasons why when people were talking about, okay, where's so-and-so, where's so-and-so? is that we're looking at this Mount Rushmore plus Cerea as sort of like a body of work. And so I think that what Tony is able to bring across those two games is, I almost paradoxically, kind of a consistency yet variability, that Tony was able to operate out of this, for lack of a better term, bag of tricks and be able to utilize so many things in his wheelhouse and both times somehow get away with it time after time. but then also have the ability, again, to come in and change specifically the way he was seen by others. And yes, there is this strategy that often gets cited, including by Rick Devons in season 50 of like,

okay, he did not look for idols in the first part of winners at war. He sat on his hands. And that's all it took is because he knew that the first week of the game is going to be the hardest for him. Because if people are just looking for others to get out, you don't really need a reason. have to look at, okay, pre-conceived notions, who's someone who could be a problem down the line based on previous body of work. But Tony worked incredibly hard,

and I would say it's one of the consummate examples of what to do if you are a line, if you are one of the biggest names on a season, coming into your third time out, where he focused on ladders. He focused on walking at a lower elevation than his competition. He was purposely shrinking himself in the game. so that he grew when the time was right.

He had his own form of survivor puberty, I suppose, over the course of winners at war. And all that felt deliberate, which I think is incredibly key. Obviously, I think a lot of factors into Survivor is luck, is chance, as you talked about a little bit with some of your previous arguments. So I focus more so on what are the choices

that these players make that can be used to influence their game? And I think what Tony was able to do in that first part, which was to really minimize hey listen, I'm just a goofy guy who's here for a good time. Yeah, remember exactly. He ends up, she almost votes him out in that episode with Sandra. But like, okay, listen, I'm the guy who's running around making llama noises. It's fine.

Look at what Tyson's doing. Look at what all these other players are doing. I'm no threat right now. I think was not only what he needed to do in that moment, but an incredibly impressive display of, again, the blueprint of what a lot of these big names could and should do in future seasons. I just wonder if a season of all winners, a season of huge targets, is the only possible season that Tony could have won on a return back to Survivor. Yeah, I mean, listen, we saw game changes, right?

Could you spin that in any way of saying that, like, he could only win against a field of gigantic. Threats in any other season that he plays, he'd be taken out. I think that when it comes to Survivor Game Changers, because I think this is going to be the key example, right? This is going to be, well, in the, perhaps one of the biggest stars in Scrub season in Survivor history, Tony was a star, and that star burned bright, it burned hot, and it burned out by the end of that two-hour premiere. but Tony has expressed that initially the reason why he came out of the game so hot was because he was very suspicious of pre-gaming

that he had not really had a lot of interactions in the Survivor community. I didn't know that. Yeah, Sarah was perhaps the only other person that he had really talked to in the time since Kagayan who was on this cast and once you know it, she was on a completely other tribe this time. And so I think that Tony got in his own head about, okay, if they're already building stuff,

And I think that at least the way he espoused it to me, the whole spy bunker thing was a way of him almost doing the beta version of what he would do in Winners at War, which is like, I'm going to play myself up as the court jester here. No, don't worry. Tony's aloof. Tony's not a big player. He's not, he's burying himself in the sand. What kind of Rube does that? He's totally out of the game. You don't need to worry about him. And so while I do, I do think that ultimately, yes, his reputation. came to precede him there. But I think that was able to allow him to workshop and come back into a setting. And yes, you have to play with the people that you play with. This is something that we're getting into, certainly when it comes to the Boston Rob argument, right?

As to quality of cast, perhaps, when it comes to these wins. But I do think that if Tony were to come back, let's say it's not winners at war, let's say it's like winners versus non-winners versus pre-jury, I still think that Tony is able to utilize some of those tactics that he learned the hard way. in game changers to put together a perception and a tactic style that would, honestly, allow him to bury himself amongst the dirt and earth around him and be a little

obscured while other players are stepping in it a bit more around him. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples preferred, get free delivery, no minimums. Staples Preferred unlocks up to 3% back. Plus 10% savings on print and exclusive wireless offers. One less thing on your plate. Actually, a lot less.

Visit staples.ca slash preferred. That was easy. How can working at your local Tims take you further? Sure, you can level up your teamwork skills. You also get a chance to receive a Tim Horan scholarship award. Ready for what's next? Apply today at Careers.com. So Tony does have this super dominant win in Winners at War that I'm trying, but it is a little bit

difficult to be able to find the holes and poke the holes into Tony's game of winners at war. But Mike, if you're the greatest of all time, I think that there was a lot of growth that happens in between Kagyan and then ultimately game changers. and Tony learns a lot of lessons along the way. But can you be the greatest of all time if you have seasons that required you to grow a lot from? I think so. I think so, absolutely.

Is it a finished product or is it a body of work? I think it's more impressive if it's a body of work, to be completely honest. And something that we're going to get into, I think, towards the end, because I do want to talk about when it comes to this greatest of all time, I think obviously gameplay is going to be the view first and foremost, but I do think that narrative also plays a part.

I think that one of the reasons why, you know, these five players are the five that we're talking about is because their stories have made them larger than life figures amongst 751 of them. And so I think that's what makes the mythos of Tony an even larger being is the sense that, okay, here is a guy who plays, fast and sloppy and was able to pull out.

So sloppy. Did you see when he ate the pizza? Oh my God, yes. No one can forget about that. He was just inhaling. Through his nose. Yeah, oh my God, yeah. It was a wild time. We do not eat pizza like that in Jersey. Just I thought you all did. Yeah.

Who did that. No, unfortunately not for anyone who gets pizza with me in the future. But he's somebody who is able to showcase, again, the ability to change. which we can certainly talk about other people in this. I don't want to keep mentioning Boston Rob, but I think one of the larger criticisms against him is like he plays the same way every single time. Well, we can talk about Rob when it's his podcast. Let's keep this focus on Tony.

I'd love to go back to Kagyon because I think that there are a lot of things that we can talk about from Survivor, Cagiaon, where I get that it's one of the most entertaining, if not the most entertaining win in Survivor history in terms of all of the wild swings that Tony makes. But I think he gets a lot of breaks. along the way in this season, including a new old twist that resulted in Tony having two idols

at a certain point in the game, an idol where he could, there was no way that the players, the players would have needed to really have some sort of like galaxy brain idol flush. And ultimately, one of them is ultimately going home after Tony plays this idol. And also, one of the things that has always not sat well with me is that Tony has an idol that expires at the final five and tells everybody that the idol expires at the final four. On Big Brother, you would not be allowed to do this. You would not be allowed to use production to say, like, oh, no, actually, this goes until four. And from what I understand, I think people are like, well, does Tony's idol still go? We can't tell you. We don't know. You'll have to vote them out and see.

Yeah, but I think that's a credit to Tony's game. That's actually going to be one of the biggest feathers in the cap that I was ready to come in here with, Rob, is because, yeah, as you mentioned, one of the many cardinal differences between Big Brother and Survivor, which Surrey herself can attest to you, is yes, as was literally talked about over a loudspeaker multiple times, you're not allowed to use production as a strategy. Tony is one of the primary figures I can think of across 26 years of Survivor who actively weaponized production, who was able to say, as you mentioned, yeah, I've got this brand new thing, and it expires at 4.

We see this come all the way back around as recent as Rizzo in Survivor 49, claimed that his idol expires at 6 when it actually does at 5. And yes, on the one hand, I think, again, one of the big arguments people can make against Tony and Kagayon was like, okay, because of the Tyler Perry Idol, he wasn't. unable to be voted out, to which I say, any one of these people at any point in time could easily just fabricate the idea of a Tyler Perry Idol. Yes, there is the actuality that he would, he would have survived if he had been voted out, and that maybe gave him a certain looseness to play with the game, which I say first, this guy is as loose as like a, you know, a 12-minute cook linguine.

Like, he was loosey-goosey to begin with. It's pretty loosey-goosey. But like, what would have stopped Tony from? having the regular idol that he found and claim, hey, this is a special idol, which I will automatically nullifies any votes after they are read, and I get to use it until the final four. He was able

to showcase how any asset, any card that he can be dealt, like the greatest magician, he can always flutter around in his fingers and turn into an ace of spades. I think it actually should be a credit to Tony's game that not

only was he able to find, this brand new idol, but actively weaponize it to give himself even more armor than it was going to give him in the first place. He has a lot of things that are not great in this game. We go back to the beginning of his game, and we have everything with Sarah, with are you a cop, no, I'm a construction worker, it's a really bad lie. He comes back, he circles around. He finally does admit that he's a cop. Sarah then ends up welcoming him back. They come out of that and then he ends up with a new group and with Trish and with L.J. And Jeffra.

And is it, is it, who's the other person there in the, in the Lou? Yeah. And then has the big celebration after the challenge of celebrating top five baby very loudly where then Sarah is out. on Tony, and then, ultimately, if it's not for Trish at the merge, that Sarah Lascena is going to be the cast of the siding vote against his side. Yeah, I mean, that merge vote is obviously, I would say, I wouldn't even say very indicative about this season, because as we're going to showcase, as much as that line might be drawn in the sand. Tony is consistently playing hopscotch across said line. He is not necessarily

taking this as, okay, it is top five, baby. Yes, he has admitted, my God, was that a verbal slip up. But that's the other impressive thing about Tony's game. And listen, you can judge about the fact that, like, the greatest player of a survivor player of all time wouldn't have said this to begin with. But that's Tony. That's who he is. This is a man who lives and dies by verbal diarrhea. But it's the emotium you take afterwards, Rob. I think he said he pooped his pants after that vote also. It was after the LJ vote that he put his pants. Oh, no, that was the, I think it was the Morgan vote because I think that he had almost gotten

some votes there. So, yeah, I think that Tony is someone who is able to make messes, but has the foresight to not only know he has to clean it up, but the ability to do so as well. And yes, Sarah was going to stick with the other group. But first off, Tony did have an idol there. And him and LJ do a little bit of the idol. He plays the idol for LJ. LJ plays the idol for him.

That would have protected him there. And he knew that him and LJ were in trouble as well. And yes, that was a misside on their part because Jeffer would have been voted out. But I don't think Tony would have been the next on the chopping block. Because as we've seen, especially with him and Sarah, in years to come, I think even if Tony and Sarah are on the opposite side of two votes, they didn't, I mean, I don't think necessarily.

it would be, okay, DOA, they're never working together again. As we see with Tony and Trish in this season, he has the ability to be able to repair relationships for perhaps some faux pas that he said, you know, he basically had the taste of toes in his mouth the entire time in Kagayan because he would consistently put his foot in his mouth. But it matters what you do afterwards. And I feel like, yes, Trish was able to sway Cass over. but that could also speak towards, you know, Trish's investment in her relationship with Tony,

the fact that she felt so committed to that side. And you know why that happens? Because Tony decides to abdicate to her and blindside Cliff Robinson in the very first vote he cast in Survivor history. That is planting the seed for a relationship that is going to germinate and blossom all the way on day 39 when she is bellowing at him from the jury bench, but still gives him her vote at the of the day. He does catch a break also that Lindsay quits after the Cliff Robinson vote. So that's one less person who's not working with him, who's just out of the game and not working against him.

Yeah, it's very true. And, you know, the more you think about it, as much as Trish kind of helps lead the Cliff vote, this is something that Tony had been putting in the works for a while. You know, one of the reasons why he ends up building the OG Spy Shack is because he feels like Cliff is starting to gain some footing, some very large footing for the large man that he is in the tribe. He's the one who goes to Sarah and flat out lies being like, oh yeah, Cliff and Wu are planning to get you out. And it's able to be so convincing that Sarah tries to throw that challenge to try to get Cliff out in that moment.

So I don't think that the cliff boot really springs out of nowhere. And even though maybe from Tony's perspective, it was not at the timing that he thought. I think he really did want to get rid of LJ in that. moment. It speaks to the work he had done prior and the relationship he had started to cultivate with Trish that he said, okay, let me do this thing for you, accomplish a goal that I wanted to do a week ago and make sure that we are locked in together. We are co-conspirators that are going to be ride or dies until it gets to a certain point where he more so emphasizes the die part of that, uh, that too-sum. Yeah. And she really comes at him hard at the final travel

council. And she also votes for him. And I think that Tony, it's so interesting. And the more you think about his job, the more it makes sense that Tony was able to weaponize so much body language over the course of his time on Survivor. Again, I mentioned the quote he said before about walking purposely on a lower slope to try to appear smaller to make it seem like people had higher status over him. But watch that final tribal council in Kagayan. Again, Tony is sitting hunched over. diminutive. It's almost like he's preemptively doing like the I come to you hat in hand. But it's not that he's any sort of like spigeless slug. During that Trist speech, she goes in basically being like, tell me it was worth swearing on your dead father's grave for you to make it as far as you did. And he looks her dead in those bright blue Bostonian eyes. And he says yes. Because he knows that's what she. she needs to hear in that moment, that as much as he can be apologetic about what he was able to do, if he tries to shrug off everything and say that it wasn't worth it, that would go against

everything that he had accomplished up to that point. And it also helps that one major thing we need to get into, Rob, is the fact that Tony was in the freaking final two in the first place. Yeah. So... Ever ever talked about what if it's a final three? You know, it's the only season of Survivor where it's a final two instead of a final three. Does that help Tony that ultimately he gets Wu to take him to the end? Is there any world in which does the outcome change if it's a final three? I feel like there was a lot of talk even before the finale of how Wu was sort of perceived as Tony's lackey.

that I think, well, obviously him taking Tony to the end was the nail in the coffin. I don't think that like this perception came out of nowhere. You know, that, it doesn't get born overnight. It's such a weird season and weird jury because it's like... And you know what, actually? Because Lindsay quit, Tony was able to make that happen. So Lindsay is maybe the one that Tony owes the most amount of money.

Yeah, because I don't think that Trish is voting for Cass. I mean, I don't know what Jeffra and Jeremiah are doing, ultimately. I don't think Spencer and Tasha are voting for Cass. I mean, I mean, Morgan at Travel Council is like, I use my flirtatious wilds to get people to do what you need to do. Tony, you are far from that. How are you able to actually get this done? Like, she was clearly in awe of what he was able to do.

So, yeah, I think that he would have been fine going up against either one of them, if not both of them. Yeah. And I know it's a testament to Tony that he's able to get woo. to do this. But was this so much that Tony was playing great or is Wu making a very bad move? I know it's two sides of the same coin. I know. I know. But would any other of 751 survivor players or 750 other survivor players made this decision?

I mean, I think so, given that they have to have the right argument given to them. Let's go back to Colby and Tina, and maybe Colby had reasons outside of the show. He wanted to have a career in Hollywood. Who knows if he would be hosting top shot for five seasons if he makes the quote-unquote villas move and takes Keith to the end. But if I remember correctly, the edit of the finale had Wu at the Final Four saying,

or before the Immunity Challenge saying, it would be stupid of me to take Tony to the end. what could have possibly changed between that confessional and that vote for Cass? Tony happened. Tony has said that he worked on Wu for hours. Yeah. And just continually gave him the pitch that he needed in this moment, which is, think about what you're going to pitch to the jury.

You are someone who prides themselves on this loyalty, on this honor. would a man of honor and loyalty cut his number one ally at the final three? Yes, this argument may not have worked on 99% of survivor players, but guess what? If 99% of survivor players were in this situation, Tony might have a different argument for them.

This speaks to the relationship if he was able to cultivate with Wu as well. This entire post merge was dictated by Tony not only flipping back and forth, but flipping back and forth alongside Wu. This is a guy he kept in the loop every single vote in the game. Clearly, he engendered some form of trial

us to this guy that Wu did feel like that was an argument to listen to in that moment, despite all the logic speaking against it. Let me bring up something that I think is Tony's Achilles heel. And what I would make the biggest case for in terms of why I think Tony is not the goat of Survivor. I think that Tony's Achilles heel is his temperament. And I know that in Winners at War, he does a really great job of, really he doesn't have one moment where he loses his cool but it's still a thing and we see it on great display in survivor kagian we see it certainly as he's going down in survivor game changers when when things are not going his way and if people are in an argument with him we have seen

where Tony can lose his cool and is able to, he sometimes will lose control of his emotions. We see him raising his voice and we see it to great effect with Cass. She's talking, Lama. And that, I think, is a part of his repertoire. I don't think that it's intentional. I'm sure that maybe you can say, well, actually, this helped him in this instance, or this instance, but I think that if we're going to, in a laboratory, create the greatest survivor player of all time,

I think that a short fuse or shorter fuse than most, and the ability and capacity on multiple occasions to fly off the handle, I think would not be a trait we would want in the greatest survivor player of all time. I think we see it a little bit even in the traitors. Yeah, but I would. also say, this is where we get into the sticky situation of how much of that is Tony the player versus Tony the person, you know, how much of that is just a part of who he is fundamentally. And for what it's worth, you are bringing up, yes, a couple of times where he writes his voice

and does ridiculous things in the heat of the moment. But those are really two of the only times he does that. I actually think that Tony is like more of a conflict-averse person than we may realized, like going back to actually the, I don't know why we keep going back to like the Lindsay of it all, but I remember actually in the wake of that clip Robinson vote, there was a big brouhaha between Trish and Lindsay.

And Tony is actually trying to quiet the storm. He's trying to really bring everything down. He's trying, he's not a Russell Hans. He's not like, ha ha ha, I got them where I want him. Now I'm going to all burn all of Lizzie's clothes to make sure she quits the game two times over. He is someone who

is trying to enforce some sort of status quo. And I think the times that he does raise his voice, the times he does get emotional, yes, those are weaknesses, but I don't think it's done as any sort of tactic. And I think it's just part of his own personality. And I think it's, again, to his credit, that those aren't things that drive people away necessarily.

Like, I didn't necessarily see Cass being like, that's it. I'm never going to work with Tony again. Because of this, Tony's vulnerable at the final four. And Cass doesn't vote against him. it's because of this super idol thing, but it's not like she was permanently turned off of working with him. I think it goes part and parcel with, again, this kind of outlandish persona that Tony has,

that yes, he was loud, he was in her face in that moment, but they had been living with a man who was louder in their face for the better part of, you know, over a month at that point. Yeah. I think that the social game, I think, is not ideal for what you would want in terms of the greatest survivor player. And I do think he has come a long way, but I still feel like even in Australian Survivor,

that I felt like that he was, you know, getting a little short with some of the people when he felt like that things were not going his way. Yeah, I mean, we could certainly talk about, I mean, maybe we'll set this up as like a carte blanche rule, Rob. Should we be bringing Australian Survivor into these discussions? I think, well, without respect to Jeremy, Jeremy, who would tell you that Tony is the goat.

So I think he's relevant to this conversation. I think that Australian Survivor is certainly, it's Survivor. I think we're watching people play the game that while it's not necessarily the same rules, I think it's almost like if somebody was, you know, doing incredible things in Canadian football, I think it's still like, it close enough, right? Well, I think especially in this example, it would be like, okay, if Brett Farr plays some years in Canadian football, you encompass that into the overall discussion, right? We are talking about these people as survivor players that apply to American survivor and Australian survivors as well.

And you're talking about who's the greatest quarterback. And, you know, somebody who does something amazing in another league, it's still being a quarterback. Yeah. So what I will say is, you know, this is maybe one of those examples where these preconceasingers, relationship goes to hurt Tony. I mean, certainly, listen, these are small tribes. These are tribes of seven. And after Rob Bentelay is voted out, you know, you look at the control that Parvety and Cerey were able to have to their credit. We'll certainly get into that with their respective podcast where they sort of had their pick of the litter, right? They were in tight with cast. They

were in tight with Lisa. And so, okay, it could be one of the guys there. And I think that Tony was, saw the writing on the wall, almost like Game Changers-esque, right? I tried to put up a bit more of a fight. And yeah, it made him a bit more ornery. But I don't think he necessarily thought like, okay, if I help these relationships, it will keep me along. I think this was a case, again,

going back to Game Changers where he's like, I clearly am much more of a known commodity with no offense to the Survivor Finland players or fans out there. But I do think that because, you know, circumstances, luck, the cast that you're, you live alongside is a man.

major part in any performance that happens across Survivor. And that was just a very weird set of circumstances for Tony. I think about Tony. And I think about when we're talking about the game from Winners at War, it really is impregnable. And that it's very hard to nitpick anything from Winners of War. I think that there are certainly things that you can point to in Survivor, Kagyan, where it was electric, but it was far from perfect, that there were mistakes were made, mistakes were corrected,

there were breaks, like any great survivor player, that there was some luck along the way. To me, and I always talked about this idea of, and maybe we're getting closer with AI, of the ability to run the simulation of, if you play the seasons a thousand times, if you put these people together in these different scenarios, I don't know how many times Tony comes up as the winner in a lot of these seasons.

And especially, I do feel like that the game is shifting away from Tony. Tony won in season 40, but that might have been the last season he could have won. Hmm. That's interesting. Because while, yes, obviously his very unique personality and his skill set makes him this once in a lifetime. type of player. You know, I was thinking about the legacy of Tony, and I do feel like so much of things that were in his wheelhouse

and things that he helped, if not bring onto the shows, just sort of make mainstream. Like, I would say you, Johnny Fairplay are key examples of people who were able to utilize a post-merge strategy of, all right, I'm going to go where the numbers are conducive to me in that particular round. But I think what Tony was able to pull off and win, gave a lot of other players permission to say,

okay, this is something that is a little bit more normalized. This is a strategy that can be utilized moving forward and not necessarily be castigated or not necessarily be something, being an idol fiend and being able to hunt and peck for things. The fact that Tony did win, yes, perhaps was due to an incredibly unique set of circumstances two times over. But I think if you dissect the fact, assets of his game, there's so many easily replicable things that he did that we have seen

very successfully in other players games as well. Yeah, when we take a look at the evolution of the show and no better person to talk to about that than Mike and of course, obviously, something we're talking about here in the tribe and I have spoken available wherever books are sold, that Tony really does, as Survivor is coming out of its Russell era, that Tony comes to the scene and really does help usher in the big moves era, which I think that we could safely say, the big moves era of Survivor, you know, is from season 28 through season 40. And sort of like Tony bookends this big moves era of Survivor. And obviously with the new era, they move to a scenario where, you know,

the Survivor players, it's, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a era defined by big moves. It's typically like big moves end up. People like, okay, I can't make big moves. I don't wait till the end, keep my powder dry, and make my one resume move at the end as opposed to let me go for the big moves. But I think that Tony does usher in that era, and he does to great success win in season 28 and season 40. And season 40 might be the best win in Survivor history.

I just don't think it automatically makes Tony the best player in Survivor history. I would certainly agree with that. I think, again, so much is dependent on the people you're playing with that just because you get two dubs doesn't mean, okay, this means that you automatically have to be the best. But I think what I've been talking about this entire podcast that I'll continue to talk about is because it wasn't even specifically the fact that he had the one, the $2 million check being cashed, but the moves that he made. to get there. Again, Tony's an incredibly unique persona, but I think the things he was able to utilize are kind of bread and butter strategic tactics that I think can be found in some of the best survivor players. And when you add on top of it, the fact that this man is an objectively ridiculous person, yet is somehow able to pull off these moves perhaps in spite of that,

which again, he can't help. It's just who he is. You know him. him, I know him. That's just kind of who Tony is in real life, kind of showcases that he's, he's able to be able to put forward even more a more impressive, I think, performance from the idea that all of this is happening from the man who's building ladders and making llama noises in the corner. Mike, is there anything else to say about Tony and his legacy? Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I think legacy is a really good thing to talk about here because I do think, yes, greatest player of all time

should be conducive to the work we actually see them do on the beach, but I do think there should be a lot that should be discussed as to like, how did they affect Survivor moving forward? And Tony has felt like, and you can speak to this, listen, Survivor Cuggan's a very special season for you, I know, in multiple ways. I think it was for a lot of people. Tony says that he believes he gave Survivor the shot in the arm, not the shot in the dark that it needed.

in that moment. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kagayan was one of the first seasons to show up on Netflix. And it's so weird to think about that, Rob, because think about all the fans who found Survivor through that season, all the future players who found Survivor through that season. Unintentionally, the chaos, this man, the controlled chaos, I should say, this man was able to create, has been able to, I think, breed this style of gameplay. And I would say, also, honestly, this idea of authenticity. I've talked so much about how I think Marianne is one of the most impactful players in the new era, because what she was able to showcase was not necessarily anything new from a gameplay

perspective, but more so like, hey, on paper, you think there might be certain personality types that can never win Survivor, but this goes to show that if you have the skill set, you can do so no matter how quote unquote weird you can be. Tony is one of the consummate examples of that. I would say he is the biggest character to ever win Survivor, a personality that is so over the top that everyone in their mother was saying, this ridiculous man is never going to get anywhere near

the million dollar prize. And he was able to do it two times over. And he was able to do it in a way that did not necessarily feel like he was straying from who he was. talks about this in the final tribal council of winners at war. Like, I came in here as Tony the person, not Tony the player. I had you get to know me. I was being vulnerable.

I think Tony, yes, plays from a place of having fun and making these big moves and making these big flashy things happen, but it's operating from a place of who Tony is as a person. And I think it gave people a lot of license to be able to operate from, I wouldn't even say a lack of restraint. But I think an ability to sort of satiate your survivor id, to trust your instincts and be like, I want to do this thing. So I'm going to go do this thing and get rewarded. Hansel me for it as an example. So even though of the group we're talking about over the course of these top five, Tony by far has the smallest tenure on Survivor. Everyone else debuted, you know, in these single digies and teen seasons. Tony debuted all the way. in season 28. I think that the impact he had

on a lot of modern day survivor discourse could outkick some of them in terms of what his play style and his success has brought to the game and the show in general. I'll always appreciate Tony for so many things, but as you alluded to,

in 2014, I had just started doing Rob as a podcast full time. I just started up on Patreon and it was a time in the first Brains versus Beauty versus Braun. We're coming off of the seasons, a run of like a lot of returning player type seasons,

but this was the first new player season, strictly new player season in a while. And Tony was such a big driver of discourse where things would happen that would be crazy on the show. And I think people went online looking to discuss Survivor. And I think a lot of people in the real time discovered Survivor in 2014 or discovered Survivor online conversation because of what Tony was doing. And so I think that he was a great muse for so much of the early days of Rob is a podcast and really did help to foster people looking for somewhere to go to talk about this lunacy that they were watching on their show.

Yeah, and I think it was able to showcase people, again, like, what survivor was capable of. And again, I don't think that, like, Tony is responsible for the entire immensely positive reception of Kagayan. I think it's on the backs of all 18 people for just the incredible TV content they were able to create. But, like, I almost feel like Tony is emblematic of what Kagayan is, right? this like comedic, chaotic, yet somehow like completely controlled persona who was able to, episode after episode, were left at the end wondering how did this happen? And there we were sitting at the end of 14 episodes with this cop from New Jersey walking away a million dollars richer and wondering, how was he able to do this?

And then we did the exact same thing six years later when he somehow did it again without receiving a vote against him with now $2 million on top of that. He shouldn't have said that Stephen had poop on his glasses. That wasn't right. He shouldn't have said that. You know what?

That's probably the biggest mark against him. Tony, if there's one thing I dislike about your game is for lack of that. And then he said he was out of sleepover. Yeah. Yeah, again, this is an example. Maybe I think actually

that's the worst mess Tony had to clean up. Everything else. Everyone was fine. Like, okay, Tony, we'll work with you the next time. That's the one time it's like, okay, Tony, that's not a good cover. And he doesn't know how many days are in the week. He told Jeremy that it's, there's no weekends on Survivor or weekends don't count.

Well, he was hustling. He says that the final tribal council of Winners of War. He's like, I played Survivor twice, once in the day and once at night. So maybe he was just showing that he's always grinding. Yeah, he made fires to live for idols at night. I mean, he is maybe the hardest working person in Survivor. So is Tony the greatest player of all time? We will leave that for you to decide ultimately when we have a.

vote at the end of this series. But Mike, let's look ahead to somebody who has a lot in common with Tony. That's Sandra. That if Tony is the king, she is the queen. And they are both the two-time winners of U.S. Survivor. And so, Mike, next time on our podcast, we will discuss the legacy of Sandra D.S. Twine is Sandra the goat. Okay? Once again, the way it's on my screen, I'm on the left, you're on the right.

Are you comfortable with Rob is heads, Mike is Tails for who will be making the case for Sandra on next week's podcast? Rob, I am always happy to represent the rear end, whether it comes to real life or this coin. So please, Tails never fails. Okay, here we go. And it's heads. Okay. Let's switch positions now. So I will make the case for Sandra Diaz-Twine as the greatest player of all time.

And hopefully we'll not talk too much about goats in any other way as we talk about. Is Sandra the goat next week? I'm really excited about this because something I've certainly come across in my discourse in various searches as like, who's the greatest player of all time, is certainly when comparing these two winning seasons, and now we'll incorporate poverty into the mix as well. Obviously, there's been talk about like, okay, what's more impressive? Tony's two wins or Sandra's two wins. So I'm glad that we had these two back to back because I think we can do a direct example

maybe would be tough because, again, they were two very different play styles. But considering that these were the first two players to win two times, as you said, arguably the queen and king of Survivor, I'm really excited to do a deep dive into what Sandra was able to accomplished to seemingly do the impossible and become a two-time winner and how much that factors into the criteria of whether or not she should be the greatest of all time. Okay. Mike, what else do you have work going on these days? So I am just, you know, biting my time until Big Brother starts. You can check out all the other Michigoths I'm doing at Parade.com. Some Survivor stuff. I, of course, got the chance to talk

with, well, at the point this is coming out, you'll have gotten the course the chance to talk with Jonathan Penner at the Tribeca Festival because there'll be that big panel for 50 seasons of Survivor that you're doing with Kyle and Camilla and Teeny and the aforementioned Surrey but I'll be covering that I think it did at this point I will have done an interview

with Boston Rob as well I got to get his thoughts about the finale and everything that went down so lots of stuff happening even though this podcast is very clear that a Survivor's flame is not extinguished much like Tony's there's always little fires that are being built down the beach even when it seems like

light the way this summer. Exactly. So we are happy to keep everything lit and hopefully it is lit over here on RHAP. So it's pretty lit over on a brand new series that we have coming up this month. We asked the fans to vote for which Aubrey season should we rewatch. It was in the hands of the fans and they said they wanted us to go back to Aubrey's first season. So starting Monday on RHAP, I proudly present to you a series we're calling co-effing wrong and so every monday wednesday and friday chappelle and i will bring you a new episode of rewatch uh three a week of survivor co-wrong i am so excited about this uh co-wrong is one of of my favorite survivor seasons of all time yeah i absolutely love that was a netflix season too right

it was for a brief portrait i think it was in like the third wave of netflix so i'm so excited for you guys to break. I mean, we're talking about one brain's brawn beauty season. Now we get to see it's very different spiritual sequel. But I'm, I'm so happy that we got the chance of this. Already, I think this is such a fun concept. I had a lot of great fun. You made a lot of great points, Mike. I have to, you really did a great job. Well, it helps. You represented Tony well. That means a lot. Because, yeah, I mean, obviously, it's a tough thing to do. And I think you brought up some good counterpoints as well. But, I mean, when you talk about a man who purposely showcased, you know, all the stuff he was able to do in front of a jury.

who makes, at one point you said, helps someone make the worst decision in Survivor history. It's a massive body of work, much like Tony's body proper. So hopefully I was able to help him flex and stunt on them boys and them girls. You ever see pictures of young Tony?

I remember, not young Wu Huang, the person who went to final two with him. I'm trying to remember. I feel like that was a thing. It wasn't during Kagayan, right? When did those pictures go viral? I think that maybe it might have been during Kagyan. Maybe it's shortly thereafter.

Oh yeah, you know what? I think it might have been. Now I have a picture of it brought up right now, and God, I can't unsee it. I mean, you were making wrestling references at the very beginning. This feels like a wrestling headshot that you would see it, like WCW in its heyday. All right, thank you so much for joining us.

We'd love to hear what you have to say in the comments. Okay, whether you agree or disagree, just remember, please be kind. And let's keep a friendly discourse going, even in the comments. Thank you so much for joining us. Take care of a good one. A lot of folks listen to Rob is a podcast because they want to get smarter about Survivor.

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