9: New Housing Rule, Tax Loopholes, 401(k), and Debt
00:00Hey everyone and welcome back to the Rich Habits podcast. My name is Austin Hankwitz and I'm joined by my co-host Robert Kroke.Robert is a seasoned entrepreneur in his 50s with more than $200 million in company exits under his belt and I'm an entrepreneur in my late 20s with a background in finance and economics.Since quitting my full-time job in corporate finance a few years ago, I felt a seven-figure media business and advised some of the most well-known fintech companies around the world.As the show name might suggest, every episode we talk about.about rich habits as they relate to business, finance, and mindset. However, we try and bring youtwo unique perspectives along the way. One from an industry veteran who is Robert and the othermyself, someone who is still the process of building wealth and getting it all figured out.So Robert, why don't we jump into things? What are we going to be talking about in today's
00:48episode? Let's do it. This episode is going to be a little different. We're going to be startingit off by sharing our reactions to the new home buying changes proposed by the Biden administration.Then we're going to share with you how we personally would go about buying a home.And for the first time, we're going to be doing a Q&A.And we're so excited to answer some of your questions.We've received hundreds of questions via DM on the Rich Habits podcast, Instagram.And so we thought for this episode, we narrow it down to three questions that were very topicaland relative to the economy as it is today.
01:22Yeah, this is going to be a fun episode.But before we get in the Q&A, we've got some really good stuff for you guys here in the beginning.as it relates to this new home buying strategy, homebuyers with good credit scores will soon encountera costly surprise, a new federal rule forcing them to pay higher mortgage rates and fees to subsidizepeople with riskier credit ratings who are also in the market to buy houses. The fee changes will gointo effect May 1st as part of the federal housing finance agency's push for affordable housing,and they will affect mortgages originating at private banks across the country.Home buyers with credit scores of about $680 or higher will pay, for example, about $40 per month more on a home loan of $400,000,
02:08and then home buyers who make down payments of 15 to 20% will also get thrown with extra large fees.I'm all for home affordability and giving people the opportunity to buy a first home, right?I am a user of the FHA's 3.5% downed by my house.That was an awesome $10 or $11,000 down payment that I was able to save up for over several years.Like, I'm super gracious for that.I don't understand it. Robert, what's your take?Yeah, I don't get it either.I actually, you and I spoke to the same person about it yesterday, and it just doesn't make sense to me.
02:43I don't see the logic of ever punishing the people that do better and have prepared better in their finances and for the,their credit. And so I actually thought it was a joke when this was published. I reached out to acouple people. I fact-checked it. And when I saw it, I couldn't find a reason anywhere publishedof why. So for me, I'm still in the dark as to why this is a good idea and why people that arebetter prepared financially and with their credit should be punished. I don't get it. Talking aboutcredit here, I snagged a screenshot I found on Twitter. I think it was CNBC or one of these newsstations talking about this new mortgage fee structure, it says 620 FICO scores get a 1.75% feediscount on their mortgage. I'm assuming that's a mortgage rate discount. And 740 FICO scores and
03:34up pay a 1% fee. So if you have a low credit score, you're going to get a discount where if youhave a good credit score, you have to pay more. It's just completely backwards. It makes no senseto me. I just don't understand it, man. It just, oh, it's frustrating. Yeah, I just think we havehave so many different parts of some of these new strategies and programs that are out therefinancially that just don't make sense. And that's why I believe a lot of it is just thismisdirectional guidance that they're giving us because of the Fed now coming out, because ofthe dollar weakening and so many things going on in the economy that it's just reallyhard to understand how this stuff gets through Congress and how it even gets announced.
04:14And it's beyond me because, I mean, it doesn't even make rudimentary math sense at all.all, especially from an economic standpoint, I guess there will be TBD of more to come.If Robert Croke was in charge, what would he say? What would he do? How is someone going to go outand buy a home the smart way? You know my feelings on the home buying topic. At the end of the day,I don't think anyone buying their first property should be buying a home. I think they shouldhouse hack and buy a duplex, a triplex, or a fourplex. So unless you're married to kids and want to bein a specific school district, I just don't think your first real estate purchase would be a primaryhome because it's not a good investment. So many people go against me on that, but it just doesn't
04:54really add up. In my opinion, if you're going to buy a home, now is just as good a time as any tobuy homes because they are at a discount. And yes, I know there's concerns with the higher interestrates, but you can always refinance what the interest rates come down, but you can't get thesavings that you could get right now of the principle of the purchase price of the house.because keep in mind, if two years ago you were going to buy a $500,000 home,you would have likely been against multiple bidders and it would have been $600,000 to buy that $500,000home. Now, two years later, yes, the interest rates are higher, but you can get that same $500,000home for probably $450,000. So if you take that stretch of equity to purchase price and you really
05:40look at it, it's okay to buy a home now because of the fact you can always refinance when therates come down, but I'm still a proponent that renting is fined as well, because so many peoplewhen they're making that big purchase, whether it's their home or a new car, they lie to themselves.They really do. And I think it's just part of making yourself feel better about your financial situation,where let's say in your mind, you say, I can afford a $2,500 mortgage payment. So you go in,you start looking at homes, you get it calculated by your mortgage lender of what you can buy for $2,500with whatever your down payment is.But then you forget that you have to add in insurance, PMI.
06:21You have to look at maintenance.HOA.When you add all of that up, that $2,500 house is all of a sudden $3,200.And that fully skews your debt to income ratio massively by like 6%.And that is one of the biggest problems with these home buying purchases that peopleare looking at is putting the totality of the monthly cost.into perspective against your debt to income ratio and your budget. And that's one of the biggestmistakes people make and why so many people in this era are house broke. Yeah, that goes back to
06:55sort of what we were talking about last week, this idea of being sort of house broke, house poor,having too much of a housing payment every month. It's kind of scary to think that, call it,four, five, six hundred extra dollars a month goes to sort of these things where if, to yourpoint, someone might have been renting and they can understand how much that all in cost is up front,or perhaps something happened where they do have a very structured housing fee that extra couple hundreddollars a month invested over 20, 30 years as a game changer. And I think back to your point as wellof the buying a primary home as your first real estate property is a bad investment. I'm on the same page.I do, though, believe that if you are able, which obviously is not the case right now, and I got
07:35extremely lucky with interest rates, right? But to your point, I think it really depends on a lot of factors,but nine times out of ten, those factors are not aligned for a lot of people. And if you'reyou're able to sort of come about this from the strategy of house hacking or being very methodicalabout the totality of that payment in relation to your debt to income ratio. Like what Robert was saying,it's just a so much better peace of mind and strategy about buying that house rather than just kindof wing in it, which I feel like a lot of people make the mistake of doing. Yeah. And to cap that off,I think it really just comes down to that lifestyle creep is real and so many people become victim to it.And, you know, their friends got the new BMW. They got to get the new BMW. Their friends moved into
08:13this neighborhood, they have to move into this neighborhood. And that five to $600 a month oflifestyle creep that might be just for the home itself can really be the difference between millionsof dollars in retirement or having very little in being scared at your retirement age. Because if youtake that $500 or $600 in your 30s or 40s and it's compounding for 20, 30 years, it makes a worldof difference in the end result of your wealth journey. So it's just very important. I couldn't have said itbetter myself. Let's jump into the Q&A. You want to kick us off with the first question? Yeah. So we had aquestion from Whitney D and she asked, what if we can't contribute to our Roth IRA because we make toomuch money. Now this is a great one for you, Austin, and I know you'll crush it. So let's get into it.
08:58What Whitney D. is talking about here essentially are these ceilings that if you make more than thisamount of money, you just simply can't contribute to this retirement account. The IRS will not let you.So there's actually a tax loophole that allows someone who makes more than these ceilings.So for individuals, it's 144,000 a year.If you file jointly, it's $228,000 a year.If you make more than that, here's how you can still contribute Whitney D to your Roth IRA.It's called a backdoor Roth IRA, and it's essentially a tax loophole that makes it seem like you're not exactly contributing to your Roth IRA when you really are.So here's how it happens.
09:36What you do is you open up a traditional IRA.which anyone with any amount of money they may can contribute towards so you're still in the clear withthe IRS on that side you open up a traditional IRA you contribute that $6,500 to your traditional IRA and thenimmediately before investing any of the money you convert that traditional IRA to a Roth IRA.Most online brokerages make this very simple. You just do a conversion. It's a step or two. It's not thathard. And then you repeat the process every single year after that. So it's super straightforward. Again,that is open the traditional, contribute to the traditional, and then convert it to a Roth and you'reoff to the races. So essentially, you're still contributing to a Roth IRA, but you're not doing it
10:19directly. It's an indirect contribute, which is why it's a tax loophole and why people are ableto go about it. But here are a couple things to keep in mind, especially if this is your firsttime doing it. So there's something called the pro rata rule that essentially is a penalty againstyou if you have existing funds inside of your traditional IRA. So,Just make sure if you are doing this that you have not contributed towards your traditional IRA yet.It makes it a lot simpler and cleaner.So be prepared for that.The next thing is make sure that you're not withdrawing any of this money in the conversion process, right?
10:53This is not you taking money out and putting it into a Roth IRA.It's a conversion.There's no money coming out and hitting your bank account.That's key.That is a really, really big point right there.And the last one here is Form 8606.It's a form you'll have to fill out on your tax return.the following year, just telling the IRS that this is something you did with your money.
11:13Yeah, and so one of the key takeaways for me and you hear Austin and I talk about it a lotis that we're just big proponents of the Roth IRA. And for those of you that are the higherearners, the backdoor Roth IRA kind of conversion and strategy that Austin just discussed,it's just very important because you always want to get the tax free money later on becauseremember, the Roth IRA is after tax contributions. So it's just very important for yourstrategy to be looking at these various ways to get the free money. So let's move on to our secondquestion of this episode, which is going to lead us into some more of this free money and somereally good strategies. And that is Heidi M. asked max out the 401k at work or the Roth IRA or
11:58both. So why don't you start us off? And we both have some different views on this one. But let'slet's rally together and get this put away.I think what's interesting about this question is, one, she's asking a great question.She is.And if you think about it, you kind of have to do both, right?So how I would approach this and how I was doing this before I became a full-time contentcreator and entrepreneur, I would invest into my 401K up to the employer match so I'd getthe free money, right?
12:26Free money is free money.You want that.Then after I'd contribute up to the match, I'd look around and say, do I still havemoney I need to invest. If the answer was yes, I would then max out my Roth IRA up to that $6,500limit because I want those tax-free gains, the free money that Robert was alluding to before.And then after I did both of those things, and if I still had money left over, I'd go back tothe 401k, and I would max out that 401k. I did not make enough money to do all three of thosethings. I stopped after the Roth IRA, but if I did, that's what I would do. And the reason why is
13:00because at my job when I was working at this healthcare company, I had full autonomy over my investments.I got to choose where my 401k was invested.I know that's not the same for everyone listening.I know they put you in some different target date funds and Robert's going to get into that.But why I did that is because I, one, want to have money in retirement, but two, could just park that to an index fund and let it grow and everything was fine.So, Robert, what's your perspective on this question?How would you go about these sort of steps and what is maybe something people should be on the lookout for as a trap?A lot of you that I talk to on a weekly basis just really don't know what the performance of your 401k is.
13:37You don't know what it's invested in.You don't know if what's invested has your best interest in mind.And the way to look at this is most 401Ks, let's say of the last 15 or 20 years, you really don't have a say of what it's invested in.There's very limited options.Those options are controlled by your company's advisor that runs the 401k program.So a lot of times these 401ks underperform or you're maxing out a 401k and going above and beyond what the employer match is doing.And that just doesn't make sense for your money.At the end of the day, my opinion would be if your employer is giving you 3% match, you put in the 3%, everything else goes into the Roth IRA until you max it out.
14:21And then at the end of that, rather than going back and maxing out the rest of the 401k, I would look at what your option.are. Like Austin alluded to, not all 401Ks give you the autonomy to be able to invest in what youwant to invest in. And you just don't want to be in underperforming assets. You'd be better offtaking the additional money and having just an index ETF portfolio because then you can control itand you're going to probably in most cases have a better performance. So keep that in mind because a lotof you talk to me on a daily basis. I just want you to be careful because a lot of these 401ks are goingto put you into these target date funds. And what that means for those of you that aren't aware of itor sure of what it is, it just means that if you're going to retire in 30 years, they're going to find
15:07this target date fund that meets your retirement age. So 30 years would be 2053. The problem with thesetarget date funds is there's no flexibility in these funds because they're predetermined what they'regoing to invest in over that 30 years. And they just don't make adjustments for things like COVID,for things like war, for things like the dollar, you know, going down and being a weak dollar.So there's no real flexibility in those funds.So generally, they just have weak performance versus a traditional portfolio of index funds at ETFs.So in my opinion, the 401K is definitely not an investment strategy.You should always get the free money from your employer, but I wouldn't go above that because there's better ways to invest your money.
15:54so just make sure that you max out your Roth IRA every yearand then the rest of it,I would really look towards a portfolio of ETFs and index fundsthat you can manage and make sure to get great performance.Square knows that in hospitality, efficiency is everything.That's why their system lets you take payments.Track sales, handle inventory, manage staff, send invoices,and keep up with finances all in one place.
16:22Fly through orders with zero mistakes.Get the data you need and keep everything working,together. So you're ready for whatever's next. Learn more about their customized little plansthat's squareup.com. And so for the people who are trying to move in and out, it's thesetarget date funds are very specific onto how much you should have in bonds versus in equities. And just,to me, I would much rather just stay invested in equities. I know the index funds. I know theirperformance. I'm comfortable with the risk. That's kind of what that looks like. And these target datefunds, to Robert's point, are very structured and there's not a lot of flexibility on that risk and
16:56what that looks like. So I'd like.largely agree with what you're saying here. And I think another important call out is back to whenyou were talking about instead of going past that match and maxing out that 401k, right, the autonomy,because if you do have autonomy, I would argue it's a pretty good idea. But if you don't havethat autonomy and you look at your 401k and you're only getting 3% on average, like, hold on,I'd one, call HR and get mad at them. And then two, say, okay, I'm going to get my match.And then I'm going to now think about how can this money be invested into your traditionalETFs and index funds through a online brokerage account, right?
17:28very normal stuff. You can go to public.com and open up one. There's a ton of differentplatforms that do that. So our last question here comes from Abraham V. Abraham asks,should I pay consumer debt off before investing? Robert, you have a really good quote herethat I want everyone to write down and put on a sticky note, put it on your mirror,keep it on your car dashboard, look at it every day. What's the quote, Robert?You can't out-invest consumer high-interest debt. And what that means to me, and Iget asked this all the time is, hey, I've got $20,000 in savings and I've got $18,000 in credit carddebt or hospital bills or taxes. What should I do with the $20,000? Should I invest it in what?
18:13And it's just a crazy question to me because if you have money sitting and you want to investit, let's say you're hopeful to make 8 or 10%, but then your consumer debt is 22%, the automatic,full stop only decision is pay off the high interest debt first and foremost. And a lot of peopledon't understand that. And that's where the quote comes from. I think the average credit card APR right nowis 24%. So the question is, would you rather pay 24% an interest on your debt or earn on a goodyear 15% right in the stock market? You're still at a net negative of 7%. Pay off the high interestconsumer debt, if that is a credit card, if that at hospital bills. For some people, thatmight be a car note. I mean, you might have debt on your car right now that is 12, 15, 18 percent
19:02interest rate, which is absurd, but unfortunately that's the reality right now because of interestrates. I would much rather pay that off and focus on paying that off and then invest versustrying to do a bunch of things at once, right? Sure, you can go, you know, invest in the stock market,make your 8, 10, 10, 12 percent a year. That's great. We highly recommended compound interest isabsolutely a thing and we want everyone to retire wealthy. But on that road to retirement,you need to be thinking about how many holes are in this bathtub and how do I plug the holesbefore I fill the bathtub with water, right? If you're filling the bathtub with water at 12%,but 25% that water's fallen out, you're going to have nothing. All the water's gone, right? Plug the
19:42holes. Plug your holes, aka this high interest debt before you begin investing. So when you do startinvesting. You're not competing with money that's leaving your bank account anyway. Yeah, I think it'sa mindset issue. So many people I deal with, I see it on TV shows, I see it everywhere. They havemoney in the bank, but then they have these glaring debts that are sitting out there, bad debts.You and I are both okay with debt, but it's bad debt. We would call it consumer debt that isproblematic. And they will hold on sometimes not even investing this money while this debt is just accruingthis high interest every single month, and it makes no sense, but I get it from a mindset perspective.They're like, look, I have money, but they're ignoring this over here and it doesn't go away.
20:28Consumer debt, bad debt that's high interest debt is never going to go away until you make it go away.And so the best thing you can do is get rid of it as quickly as possible so you can get on yourroad to positive cash flow and being able to actually invest without getting that eaten awaybecause you always want to arbitrage your money to the good side.And when you have that high interest debt, you can't out invest it.What a great ending to this episode, Robert.You can't out invest your high interest consumer debt.Everyone, thanks so much for your questions.
20:59Please, please, please keep them coming.And also let us know if you like this format where we kind of talk about something,give a hot take, give you guys maybe an update on our perspective on either a headline we're seeingor maybe even give you some quick, more punchy, rich habits versus jumpinginto all of them and then also taking questions and answers at the end. I think the questionand answers are fun because one, we get to shout out our followers like Heidi, like Abraham, andlike Whitney, who DMed us on Instagram. And two, it kind of gives a little bit of suspense,right? Who knows what the next episode's going to be about? People are going to ask questions that
21:33are going to be fun and very unique to their situations and I'm eager to answer them. So keep thequestions coming. Again, that's at Rich Habits podcast on Instagram. And be sure to follow bothmyself, Austin Hankwitz and Robert Croke on TikTok and Instagram as well. And we will see you on the nextepisode of the Rich Habits podcast. Thank you, everyone.
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