Right About Now - Legendary Business Advice - eSports ft. Matt Arden - Head of Content and Media at NBA 2K League

Episode Date: August 18, 2020

In this episode, Ryan sits down with the Head of Content and Media at NBA 2K League, Matt Arden.Matt, a 3 time Emmy Winner, and executive producer, dedicates his passion for story telling in his work at the NBA 2K League.Ryan and Matt discuss several topics in this episode:Changing the game's production location from the studio to living roomsMatt's career journey to the NBAMatt's role as executive producerWhere Matt and Ryan see eSports going To follow along in the series, follow @RyanAlford | @the.rad.cast on Instagram | Visit our website for more theradcast.comTo stay up to date with the league, follow @NBA2KLEAGUE on Instagram   If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, what's up? It's Ryan Alford, host of the Radcast. We are in part six or seven. Not sure, Riley, I'm having a hard type of keeping up, but of the e-sport series, it's been a good one.

I had a ton of interaction. And today, I'm super pumped to have Matt Arden, head of content and media NBA 2K league. Matt, great to have you on. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Can I, do I drop three-time Emmy winner?

I mean, do I start there? Like, I got to butter you up here. I want some good stuff. No, if I didn't win it with the NBA 2K league, it doesn't count anymore. All right, all right, all right. So excited to have Matt on. We shared a few stories for a mutual friend, the voice, one of the voices of, if not the voice of NBA 2K League, Scott Cole, good friend of mine.

and Uber talented. So great to have that connection. But, you know, what's going on, man? ESPN2 every week, almost every week. Lots happening with you guys. Yeah, it's been crazy. I mean, you know, you and I were talking, you know, before we hit play that I hesitate to say that this period has been fun

because it's obviously for so many more global implications has not been fun. But I think that we've, you know, made a lot. a very good run at making the best of it. And we have found the silver lining and all of this. And I think, you know, in a weird way, it's been, it's been bearable because we've had NBA 2K league to lean on. And I think that, you know, I think we're always really, like, outwardly focused on the fans,

but it was weird how when we focused internally on how we're going to battle this whole COVID situation, that we realized what fans we are of sports and of e-sports and of the 2K league. And for us that work on the league, it's been, it's been. great for us too because it's been a it's been an escape for us too it's been you know it's it's kind of saved us it's exactly right i mean i i i never do how much i miss sports until the gap between the NBA and i don't i'm not even a huge MLB fan but i was like you know braves are down the road from us here in greenville you know quasi braves fan i'll catch you know a few innings here i'm like i was missing MLB so you know like uh i'm sorry i mean that that is not the biggest baseball but i was just

like missing the sport So I was like praying for the golf to not to get canceled when it started back. Dude, I was watching. Cornhole was following us on ESPN 2 a lot of nights. And I was glued to that when we went off air. Anything competitive, anything that feels like sports, we're in. I've never watched as much Korean baseball at 5.30 a.m. at my gym. Then it was I'd have it on ESPN in the gym and watch a Korean baseball.

I'm like really like rooting for these guys. You know what's cool though? Like with all that, you know, Again, trying to find the silver lining. Like, now I kind of have like little fandoms with like certain Korean baseball teams. And I have like the ability that it's given us to, you know, expose us to different sports and different people. Like for me, look at the core, I'm a storyteller, right? And to understand some of these new stories and meet interesting people and understand their backgrounds,

all that's been super cool in a weird way. And again, I don't, like I would like us to get past this. And I would like to not ever have another COVID era. but it has exposed us to some really cool things and it's been you know there have been some cool moments so you know i'm not going to i don't want to throw it all the way i love it so let's start storytelling you open the book perfect for me i love it um i know that's your background i know again we mentioned the emmys but let's start there a little bit you know your background and storytelling and producing um then then maybe you know teeing off right to 2k league we kind of you know

give you a little bit of that back history of Matt and kind of your, you know, what led up to where you're at now. Yeah, I mean, look, I got really lucky in college. You know, I worked my way through college working in sports media at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies. Sorry, I know you're a Clemson fan, but I worked at, you know, the newspaper and the radio station, the TV station down there and then got, I landed an internship at the time at WRC in Washington for the George Michael Sports Machine, which at the time, he was the, you know, the newspaper. the biggest syndicated sports program on Sunday nights globally. And I learned a lot from him. And, you know, the biggest piece of advice he ever gave me was that, like,

your college degree is great, but don't try to prove to everybody you can write circles around them. You want your stories to be embraced by everybody in America. Like, you know, his whole thing was mom, ma'n pop beer can better understand what you're trying to say. And that's sort of, you know, how I approach storytelling as an executive producer. And started out as a sports. on air, and then found myself incredibly lucky to get hired down in Atlanta,

lived in Atlanta for 11 years and worked for the majority of that at Turner Sports. And Turner Sports was amazing for me in so many ways. One, it really introduced me to the NBA product and I got to work on NBA a ton as a big part of my career. Got to meet my wife, which I would, you know, no offense to the league, but I would put her above the NBA. But it's a close race. And I got, I got, you know, down there, you know,

as part of my maturation and storytelling, I got exposed to two very important people in my growth. One was Ernie Johnson. He and I was on a show with him. He hosted the show that handed off to my show. And he was really instrumental in giving me a lot of advice and was always very kind to me. And you talk about Scott Cole and some of the shared friends that we have, you know, Ernie Johnson and Scott and those guys, homework was always the thing. Do your research, know your homework, tell the story the right way.

And, you know, he really hammered that home with me. and then the other one was Craig Barry at Turner Sports who's still there. Craig was a huge influence on my life, hired me into CSSU down there as employee number one, you know, as the first sort of main hire under him as a PA, you know, did know much,

but learned everything from him. Were these like Dominique Wilk and Spud Webb days? Are we talking? I'm not quite that old. Okay, all right, all right. I'll say that my second year, I won't give you my age, but I'll say my second year in CSSU was the LeBron

and mellow draft years. So that'll date me a little bit. Yeah, just a little. So anyway, you know, Turner Sports is great to me. Craig was great to me. I learned a lot down there, shared time with some incredible writers and producers, you know, namely Drew Watkins and Matt Mosteller. And, you know, we all came up together.

And then my wife got a job offer in New York City. And, you know, I grew up in Virginia. I lived in Atlanta. I'd never live north of the Mason-Dixon, really. So I was like, all right, let's try it. So I quit my job. Moved to New York. I worked for a great company right when I came to New York called Maggie Vision.

who does a lot of work with ESPN and does the SPs, NFL honors. And then went the agency side, you know, went brand side for a while with the company called Screen Vision. And then I've known with the NBA for the last, you know, year and a half for it over. And kind of felt like a homecoming, honestly, because I spent so much my career working on the NBA product that it was, you know, it just felt like after, you know, eight years or seven years in New York City, it felt like I finally landed at a home. It was where I was supposed to be.

It's been great. What's been the, you know, transitioning from the NBA proper to the 2K League, you know, the video game side, which obviously the games, I mean, it's gotten so realistic. Like there's so much crossover, like we said, the Scott calling the games and everything else, like in the league, like the realities there. But what was that transition like, you know, from, was it probably more seamless than you'd think? It was to a degree. The biggest thing I needed was an education in e-sports. It's a very tight community. It's a grassroots community. And I am an outsider to a degree. I mean, I play video games. I have an Xbox. But to say I'm a gamer would be false, at least at the time. You know, I'm a casual gamer. And this is a real endeavor. This is a real practice. And this is a real career for so many. And so gaining education, earning the respect of the players and the league, gaining council. You know, our managing director, Brendan Dony here was an incredible, you know, getting me up to speed. Sam Osvahani, who had the role before me, who now has OS studios here in New York, he would spend time with me and teach me some of the ins and ounce that I didn't know.

Our own internal team, a guy on my team, T.J. Canty, he's incredible. Gave me a ton of knowledge, really filled in the gaps. And then some outsiders, too, Ariel Horn and people like that. You know, I sought a lot of counsel early on to learn the e-sport side of it. Because where you're talking about the transition from the NBA side, the part that was easy, was storytelling is storytelling and unlocking a great story and telling a great story and giving people an incredible visual representation of a sport or a game, those fundamentals remain. But it was making sure that I was being authentic.

And I really needed to learn core values and where players and teams and leagues come from. Once I sort of started to get that education, the storytelling became a little easier. And it became much more automatic for me. I didn't have to think through it as much. And look, the NBA is an awesome company, you know, resources and people to help you walk through these things. And it's really a great place to work. And the transition was made seamless for me. I didn't have to fight too hard.

So talk, you know, down that path. And I do want to talk about some of the content. I've been enjoying that on the YouTube channel. That's where I digest it. The frenemies watched that from last night. So it really interesting the stories of the players and all that. And there's such a lot of storytelling that I see. being in the business, it's really great.

But talk about your role and what are the goals ultimately? What does success look like, both your role and then what does success look like in that role of content media for you guys? Well, look, I mean, we're a small team, right? We're a startup within the NBA. So I think success is a number of different platforms. And for our marketing team or our league ops team, for our league overall, for our players and teams, there's probably different benchmarks that market.

success. But I think for the content and broadcast team, it would be, I'll put it this way. When ESPN came on, you know, during all this and we're on, you know, obviously the app all season long and we've been on ESPN too a number of times. Success for us actually looked like them saying, hey, we're interested in this. But what, you know, can you guys produce a show, you know, that belongs on ESPN? And our answer was yes. And they looked at our product and we looked at our product then everybody went, wow, you guys are producing a real thing here. And so I think that that was the first measure of success for us was that we're not producing in a way that we feel we can get away with.

In fact, in many ways, we're overproducing and making it much more beautiful than it probably needs to be. And that felt really good to us. When ESPN said, sure, no problem, let's get you on air, that felt like a really big measure of success for us, both creatively and artistically and narratively. And I think that's the, for us, that's the goal, at least on the content and broadcast side, is to continue to make

really compelling content despite the restrictions that we're faced with now with COVID. And keep pushing forward narratives because honestly, our players and our teams are awesome. They are some of the most compelling characters I've ever worked with in my, you know, 22 years in sports in broadcast.

So if we can continue to push those stories forward and find partners that help us tell those stories, that'll be success for me. Yeah, I love it. And so in kind of the production now, I'd love to go down that path with the, you know, maybe using the obviously most logical ESPN2 connection. Like, I'm sure we could spend the entire episode talking about what it takes to pull. that off or what brought that together. But I think it would be fascinating just to understand maybe a little bit to give our listeners

kind of just how complex and or what that, what is happening. You've got announcers at home. You have, you know, everyone I imagine is remote in someone. Maybe you have a core team, but talk to us about some of that production. So we had about, you know, three or four weeks to figure out how to go from an arena in Hell's Kitchen that has a broadcast facility built in it to producing the same level of, of, you know, content and broadcast quality from 30 living rooms in two countries and in 22 states. So, yeah, it was a big deal. No big deal. No big deal. The first question was,

is there an app for that. Ironically, yes, there is. Some of our stuff is app based. There's this really cool app. I have my iPad that, you know, I can pull up all of our camera. and I can literally call shots from home. But, you know, first stop was always, you know, game sanctity is always the first question. So first off with us was league ops and they're an incredible team, you know, Daniel and Brad on that side of our league. You know, they made sure that and our obviously our partners to take two, they made sure the game was going to be stable.

We could do it. We knew we could pull it off from a gameplay perspective. And then it was, okay, let's stack the broadcast on top of it. And what we did was we ended up building 23 mobile broadband. broadcast units. So, you know, we call them flypacks. And essentially we said, what are the base materials we need for someone to broadcast from their living room? And we got this stack of components and our partners at de facto who produce our show with us were incredible at helping us synthesized and figure out what are those core elements. And we built 23 flypacks and we sent it to the 23 teams.

And then de facto then, you know, figured out a broadcast strategy that would take in all these feeds, understanding that they're going to be coming off of 23 different Wi-Fi signals, strengths, you know, whatever they're, it's all completely variable. And it's not only variable by who has what bandwidth available, but then what's the weather like? What's the traffic light in that region? What's, you know, it's insane. So we built it all into a hub and we've got it being produced half in Vancouver at de facto's headquarters. And the other half, our core on the back end is out of Toronto at the Rogers Center there. We've got our TD and our A1 sitting in a room there and making sure that whatever gets pushed through the pipeline on fiber that goes to our platform partners,

whether it's ESPN or Twitter, YouTube, that they're getting a concise, mixed-syned, official HD product. And that's how we run our operation. And, you know, we have three and a half weeks to figure it out. So that's, you know, a big deal. Yeah, right. And then not to mention your point, Scott is in South Carolina and his home and Dirk the castors at his home in Illinois. So we had to build two more flypacks for them. And then we built two spare flypacks. We bring in Julian Viani or area power sometimes as guest casters.

So we have these floating flypacks that we use and we want to bring in extra voices. And then we figured out, you know, how can we integrate Skype and any other way to sort of connect to a broadcast to bring in special guests. It's our graphics department. We use a company called Heiser, a guy named Matt McLeod out of Houston, who built a show that would look like we produced it in a broadcast facility, but it's being run out of everybody's living room. I'm here in New York,

and half the team is spread out across New York and in different places. Yeah, we're making it work. I'm hearing a story within the story here. I hope someone's documenting what it took to make all the time. I think if we go back and document it, we're all going to get PTSD. I think we just got to keep moving forward. Exactly. So talk about the partnership with ESPN, you know, what that's been like. I mean, I can only imagine those having the eyeballs. And I know that you've had other on-air content before COVID.

But what's that been like? What's that done for you guys? And what's been the reaction to the more mainstream live broadcasts? Look, it's, I can't say enough about them. as partners, the people that we work with on the ESPN side have been absolutely awesome. And I think, you know, we were, we worked incredibly hard to be ready for whatever eventuality came during this process, so we're incredibly proud that they thought the product was a great product to put on their area. And, you know, since the initial announcement, ESPN has picked up an additional 21 nights on ESPN2 alone. And of course, we're on the app the whole time throughout the season. So I think that's a testament to how we've been able to work together and how we've been

able to grow the product together. They've had input on different advancements in different content storylines in the broadcast that do hideous PN2 and we take those suggestions very seriously and we've you know we've in many ways when we're on air with them we're working on the show together and they've just been awesome creative partners and from the linear side we're really proud because we're obviously meeting a new audience you know every night that we're with them and we're hearing that feedback and we're seeing people come back, you know, from the ESPN2 broadcast into, you know, we'll find some in our Twitch chat and we'll find them following us as we go, you know, on different platforms,

on different nights. And so like anything in life, right, it just comes down to opportunity. And we're just really proud that we were, A, given the opportunity and that we were prepared to step up to the challenge when the opportunity was presented. So I, I, I, we've been overjoyed with what we've seen with them. What's, um, you know, the future stories. both on broadcast and like I mentioned your series on, you know, I digest on YouTube. Locked in, yeah. You know, but talk about maybe that. That's what, you know, sponsored by AT&T.

We'll give them a shout out. Appreciate it. They seem to do a good job with it. So, and I've enjoyed kind of getting, I'd love to know, you know, what brings to life those stories and, you know, obviously the players themselves, like you set or so dynamic or more than you've maybe even realized. But what kind of goes into kind of bringing those stories to life? A couple things. You know, one is, I appreciate the shout out for AT&T, but the truth is they deserve a lot of credit because they're not just a partner with a name on the show.

They've really helped us produce the show this year because locked in as a series we created last season. And we spent a lot of time and effort, traveling and shooting and filming. And, you know, it's a full-on immersive production for 18 weeks. how do you make that show in season, you know, how do you give that show a season two when we're all, you know, isolated and quarantine? AT&T became an active participant in the production communication. And they gave us, like,

we're at like 20 different fully loaded, prepped phones that they shipped to us with AT&T service. And so we use those phones to record the show. We ship them to the teams or players. They're fully ready to upload the footage back to us to a server using AT&T service. All the footage for the most part is shot on these AT&T phones.

And they became an actual production partner to solve this problem with us. Which has been amazing because we figured out how to produce a full show during a time where we couldn't be face to face with anybody. We talked about Sacred Cows, production quality,

all these things that have been there for so long that like, oh, we have to shoot it with the 4K and like this and we have this. And I've got to have craft services over here. and all, I mean, good grief. It's like the reality is that you could tell a story. The content makes the story, the quality is secondary or fifth. It is and it isn't. I will fight back. I'll argue with you on that one for one reason. One thing we said going into this was we're going to get a lot

of free passes. We're going to get a lot of excuses for quality. And I don't know if this makes it fun to work with me or difficult to work with me, but I refuse to accept any of those excuses. We still dedicate a ton of quality to, I don't know if you hear my computer digging, but, you know, it's 502, so obviously there's an emergency somewhere. So I'll start over with you, but, you know, the truth is I'll fight you on that a little bit in that, in that the quality matters. And so we have an incredible production partner in a company called Mall Media here in New York City that does a lot of our shoot and edit, all of our edit. And, you know, we dedicated the same energy to the craft as we would have otherwise.

We just recognize that we were doing it a little differently, but we still dedicate a ton to the edit in graphics and sound mix and design. And we want to make sure that we're still producing high quality content despite the free pass that might be out there collectively in the greater ecosystem. We're still going to push a really high quality product. And I think you're seeing that in locked in. And to answer your second question about where do we find those stories, one is we're just really dedicated to paying attention to more than just the X's and O's. And we've got this great guy, Graham Borden, who's our community ambassador, goes online by Black, Frank White. He's, you know, knows everybody in the community, knows everybody in the 2K community,

in the 2K league. And he's a huge asset to have on our team because he can bring those stories to the surface for us too. Hey, you guys really got to look at this person. You guys really got to look at this team. Hey, I've been talking to some players over here and they're doing this really cool thing. And so we're able to unearth stories in this very organic way because it's all coming from a very real place. you know, we're not just making cold calls to teams and being like,

hey, you got anything cool going on? We actively know what's going on by continuing these conversations. And so we chase down a lot of these stories that, A, you wouldn't normally hear, and B, aren't necessarily tied to wins and losses and X's and O's. I love it. And by quality, I don't mean time in production, but more. I know what you mean. But smart, whether it's a smartphone or, you know, a $20,000 or $100,000 red camera.

It's true. And what we're learning is, but what we're, now I wouldn't say we're learning, but what we're, you know, guys like me and you are finally being able to affirm is that a good story is what matters. There's, there's no more tricks. There's no more bells and whistles. It just raw truth. That's what matters. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Is what's the, it's so hard to think past COVID and not that it even matters necessarily, but what's, what's kind of the future whole. for you guys with with with with with the league and you know what can we is there anything you can share that we should be expecting as far as content or stories or different things like that yeah i mean look

you know growth for us is is is you can see it in real time right season one with 17 teams season two is 21 teams season three is 23 teams with the first international and traditional esports franchise you know gen g shanghai tigers so um or tigers from shanghai and um you know international qualifiers so i don't think there's any any gray area there, I think it's pretty easy to see that, you know, active hint that we want to be a truly global league with divisions in Asia and Europe. And Gen G's a huge first step in that, you know, they're obviously helping us even with player identification, you know, in different regions. And so I think that from a league perspective is what you're already seeing. From the content

and broadcast side, I think, you know, just continue to get bigger and batter. You know, we have a virtual studio now. So that's been a fun thing coming out of this COVID era. But I think we'll continue to experiment with virtual technologies and remote productions, even when we don't have to because now we know we can and there's tons of value to it. And I think just, you know, obviously continuing to find more distribution platforms that, you know, want to play with us.

You know, ESPN's been a great example of that. We've got EGG in Southeast Asia and SportsNet in Canada. We've just been able to make really great relationships and find some cool distribution that's given us access to a whole new audience, you know, in different places. So I think you'll continue to see that, you know, that level of growth, I think. And as far as production, you know, in process, you'll continue to see more 101 content so we can explain the game and the league to people who are joining us for the first time or,

you know, the first few times. I love this series 24 seconds with, with Autumn Johnson that's sponsored by Tissot. I think we'll see more content like that with, you know, quickfire snackable, learn more about our players. We've got this new series behind the screens with Jeff Eisenband, which takes a deep paper dive, you know, spends more time with players and understanding how they became to , uh, became esports professionals. I think those are important stories to tell. Um, and you've got the final four episodes of locked in still in production. So I don't want to give away too many hints on those, but you see some of the storylines and story. And story, and I think, you know,

later in the season, you'll see storylines that are tied to more to our core principles and some of the pillars of our own, you know, growth and what we can do with esports and the gaming community at large. Um, so, you know, just a couple things to work on from our living rooms. Just a couple. Are we going to see more linear with e-sports? It seems like it's coming fast. I mean, as a whole, it seems like that's the next frontier maybe or amongst many. Yeah, I think you'll see, I think it'll become much more part of the, you know, general fare. You know, you obviously see finn coming online here in August soon. I saw the delete teaser trailer for G4, so I guess that's coming back. So I think

you know, there's, I think all the signs point to greater opportunity for greater distribution for e-sports and gamers. So I'm encouraged by everything we're seeing. And I think, you know, we're right in the mix with it. I think we're an awesome product that I, you know, hopefully we find homes in all these places. Yeah. Is, you know, the interesting thing with e-sports is just so, the ecosystem is so large with the games and the segments and the you know i mean i know it the the foundation is with uh more of the the shoot

them up games as i call them and uh you know but and speak i'll go down that route i've asked every guess that we've had on um i have four boys under the age 11 and they all are gamers so uh do they have a future uh career in this like my 11 yard girl specifically wants to wants to know. So I'm asking every guest, is this, you know, it seems like it might be closer than it ever was, but is this a career path? E-sports for sure. I mean, look, and I think even broader than gameplay, I think what we're realizing is that like, you know, marketing professionals and league operations and developers and, you know, I think the career paths that e-sports has opened up is so much broader than

just becoming a gamer and a professional game player. you know everything from people who were used to traditional television production to content creators to you know CROs CMOs like you know these are businesses that are going to continue to grow and I think that the multitude of careers that can be attached to e-sports is limitless right now I would say 100 this is a this is a career that that'll be there for them when they're ready to join the workforce and take my job from me Yeah, all right. Well, we'll see. Hopefully we're both retired and on a beach somewhere, but I think we're about the same age. What do you, what's your perspective on the whole, you know, for e-sports and the growth?

And, you know, like, is it, it seems like the mainstream is here. I still wonder, and I don't want to get into like the whole issue of violence and all that. Like it just seems like, and that's why I love what you guys are doing it. I'm pushing my kids more into the sports side. Because look, at the end of the day, I think, you know, people hurt people, games don't hurt people. And, you know, it's like you got to teach them right for wrong and all those things. But is that going to be a hold up for brands and things? You know, I mean, the violent side of it.

I mean, it seems like it could be. I don't know. I don't. As a father, I think, you know, I'd probably answer it differently than, you know, as in my role. I think ultimately what we're finding is two things. One, I would say, with all that aside, I just, I love our product and I love that we're rated E for everyone and we're having a good time with a great sport. But I also think that when you talk about the mainstream, I don't know that there is a mainstream

anymore. I think there's something for everyone now. And I think niche markets are important. And so whether or not everything that we're talking about becomes globally massive, everyone, you know, tons of eyeballs, I don't know what the future looks like. I don't even know what, you know, what ratings look like in the future. It doesn't necessarily matter because I think niche markets and powerful niche markets will be very interesting to the future of media. And so we're just going to keep cranking on the thing that we love.

And we are really happy with what we're seeing so far. And we're just going to keep grinding because our fans love it. We're finding new fans every day. And we think we're providing a really cool product. And we're focused on that. I love it. I love it. Matt, man, it's been awesome.

I appreciate your insights. your transparency with everything going on with the league. The storytelling is awesome, whether it's remote or not. I don't think the average I would know because the stories are compelling. The players are compelling. The league itself seems limitless for where you guys can take it. So really appreciate your time and coming on today. Thank you very much for having me.

I appreciate the opportunity. The fact that you guys are taking notice of it is really cool. so thank you very much. Yeah, it's been great. Hey, this is Ryan Alford, host of the Radcast. Really appreciate Matt Arden coming on today to talk all things, NBA 2K League. Follow more, just Google NBA 2K League. They're right there at the top.

You can learn more about the league and everything they have going on and go follow their series on YouTube. It's great content. This is Ryan Offord. We'll see you next time. To listen to full episodes or to contact us, visit us on the web at the radcast. or follow our host at Ryan Alford on Instagram. Thanks for tuning in.