Right About Now - Legendary Business Advice - Ryan talks with guest Steve Babcock, former Chief Creative Office at VaynerMedia

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

On this Episode, Ryan chats with Stave Babcock, the founder of Made in House and former Chief Creative Officer at VaynerMedia. Steve shares his creative journey from days at Crispin Porter and Bogusky to his time at Vayner. Steve is very transparent about the realities of working with Gary V and the challenges and importance of elevating creative in today's landscape. From developing the Pizza Tracker for Dominos to empowering his teams to do their best work Steve is a great interview and provides a ton of insights and value. Links from this Episode: https://www.stevehappens.com/ Please share, review, and subscribe! The Radical Marketing Podcast is always looking for intriguing guests. Email inquiries to [e-mail] Follow us: @radical_results on Instagram @ryanalford on Instagram www.radical.company If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast. Here is your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, welcome to the latest episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast. Pretty stoked for today. You know, we kind of come in and out of agency and marketing world, and I think this is about as straight line as it gets. But Steve Babcock, really excited to have you on today's episode. Awesome. Thank you.

Happy to be here. Yeah. So Steve is the current and the founder. And, you know, no, you're not a title. I've made in house and the former chief creative officer of VaynerMedia spent time at CPB, some of the who's-whoos and agency world, you know. But all-around creative dude. Is that, is that fair to say?

I think that's probably the more accurate title. Or maybe even just all-around dude. Dude. Yeah, more dude than anything else. Cool, man. I'm really excited to have you on. and, you know, we've been talking the last, you know, a couple of months just here and there, but excited to kind of tell in here, you know, our guys, our audience, to hear some of your story and background,

especially for both people. We, we have a lot of people, you know, the agency people, maybe in the southeast or, you know, a little more regionally based. And, you know, they know, the Vayner Media name and Gary Vee and stuff. But I think hearing the, you know, the width and depth of your experience and, you know, kind of just some of your perspectives on. where the market was headed. You know, it's like pre-COVID and post-COVID. So I definitely want to get some of your takes on that. You know, I don't know that it's changed definitively.

Marketing is marketing, branding, branding. I think we both have a love for content and branded content. We'll talk about that. But, you know, I do want to get your perspective because it's kind of a crazy world out there, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, cool, Steve. I'd love for, you know, let's just start, you know, right down the path.

I'd love for people just to kind of give, you know, your history and background in the agency world and marketing and maybe just some of your general philosophies. But maybe just kind of that history timeline and some of the campaigns you've worked on is kind of tee up that for everyone. Sure. Yeah. I, well, I grew up. I was born and raised in a one stoplight town in southern Idaho, which, a lot of people think, wait, Iowa, no, Idaho. The second ad mecca of the world.

Yeah, exactly. So I grew up there and kind of my whole life. And during my childhood, it was very interested, kind of oddly enough in, like, film. I was the youngest of five kids, and we would make, like, home movies, like Super 8, home movies, like in the 80s, and VHS.

And I was really into, like, editing and things like that at a young age. Like, this is back when you were editing with like two VCRs. And I know half of your listeners are like, what is a VCR? Just Google it. But I was always into that. I was always into music, art and design and those things. But I had no idea, really, in that area that, like, advertising was a job.

In my mind, I was like, I'm going to be a director. I'm going to go make movies, Steven Spielberg, you know. And so I went to school at the University of Utah in just kind of down the road as like the closest university. was also, to be fair, a pretty avid snowboarder. So that really influenced. I was like, I'm going to go there and just snowboard. And I'll go to like their film department. And while I was in school, a friend, I needed a job, kind of like a part-time job. And a friend knew somebody who worked at the time as the largest agency in that area. It was called DSW Partners. And they were famous for making the intel inside the little do-do-do-do-do. You know, it was at the time, it was like a big. agency. And I remember I got an interview when I walked in there and I was just like blown away because it was like, you know, the walls were all painted groovy colors and people were dressed and like flip-flot. You know, I'd never, I don't know. I was like, this is a job.

And anyway, I got the job and it was to work in what was called the Business Center. It was like the mailroom and I did all the odd jobs. It was kind of like everything guy. And it was great job because it allowed me, it was very flexible. You know, I could go to my classes, I could come back, but what was really cool is it really introduced me to advertising. And when you, when you're the male person and you're sorting and delivering everyone's mail, you get to know, and back in the day, this is kind of pre-email, you get to know everything about everybody based on their subscriptions and things that they get. I realized like, wow, this creative department was really cool because this agency kind of everybody sat in their department. I'm like, this is amazing. I love

these people and I befriended them and kind of long story short there is that agency ended up having a scholarship contest for all students in Utah and you could submit a portfolio and because I wasn't a I was just a part-time employee. I was eligible. So I'd befriended an art director there who let me use this computer at nights. So I just kind of taught myself Photoshop for and put together a portfolio of just horrible fake ads. And I ended up winning the contest. And then they gave me a job as a junior copywriter, which I was surprised by because I thought I was trying to be a art director or a designer,

but I just went with it. And that was kind of, that's how I got into, so I also let me finish school and et cetera. But I was all of a sudden, I'm like, I guess I'm in this industry. And I liked it. And I just kind of kept going. And so I was in the Utah market, finished school. got married. I was also in a band and so that was sort of pulling me both ways, but eventually, as does happen, the band dreams kind of died and that's when we said, well, let's take this a little

more seriously. We moved out to Colorado where I was in Colorado for 10 years and I worked at Crispin Porter-Begovigowski. And when I left Crispin, Porta-Begovski, I was one of the two executive creative directors there. And then I took a really fun opportunity of an agency out of San Francisco had reached out. They needed a creative leader, but they also were interested in building a second office in Boulder in Colorado. So I was like, this is cool. I get to kind of do a startup thing,

but with training wheels. So that was really, really fun, very different, going from this mecca of Crispin, where there's hundreds and hundreds of people, to all of a sudden I'm going to Target to get the toilet paper for the office, you know. But it was really fun to learn how to grow an office. from pretty much nobody to around 30 to 40 people.

And then I got a call from from this guy in New York who I'd never heard of named Gary. And I didn't know the agency or or anything about it. And again, this was this was maybe it's probably five and a half years ago now or maybe six years. I can't remember, but 2014, 2015. Yeah, it's 2015. Yeah. And summer of 2015 and we, you know, my initial reaction was no thanks, like New York's not for me.

I don't know who you are. VaynerMedia doesn't sound. It just wasn't on my radar. It didn't sound like something that I was interested in doing. And we spoke for about six or seven months and Gary's the best salesman I've ever met. And the proof of that is all of a sudden,

my family and I are packing up and moving to New York. And so I took that job, that opportunity, which was really a fun challenge, to be the first chief creative officer of VaynerMedia. And when I walked into those doors, it was really, I was very taken aback because it just wasn't, it didn't look or feel like anything I'd ever experienced. It was chaos.

I always would call it like a pleasant Lord of the Flies because it was night, but it was just as chaotic as possible. And I got excited, eventually I turned a corner of my mind because at first I was like, no thanks. But then I got excited about like, I want to fix this. Operationally, there's a lot of good stuff. here there's a lot of good philosophy and and so I did that for about four years and then where I am now is one year in the books of my own business made in-house

which is a in-house consultancy working with brands directly to help them build their in-house agencies great so a lot to kind of dig into there I mean so at CPB you were there for about six years, is that right? Yeah. What were maybe some of the more memorable campaigns or work that you worked on there? I mean, is there a person pretty big, they have some pretty household names under their roster.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was, I mean, that was, I mean, that was, especially at the time, was, you were pumping out so much volume. We were just, you know, it had a little bit of a reputation for being this like crazy sweat shop. And it wasn't in that like no one was forcing you. You were just, we kind of did it to ourselves. Like your offices had blutons in it. Like you were sleeping there overnight. You were just because there was so much opportunity, whether it was Burger King or Volkswagen, you know, I, I at an

early time there was given the pitch for Domino's. So I won that account and did a lot of the early work on dominoes. The thing that I think I'm most famous for is the pizza tracker. Yeah. Which is something that I would reference a lot. I don't know if it's my favorite. I mean, you just made so much stuff there. I can't even remember everything. But the pizza tracker, for example, I will reference a lot because I like that it was a solution to a problem that wasn't an ad. So Domino's really came to us.

This was kind of when online ordering wasn't the thing. And that was the assignment. It was like, how do we get to come up with a campaign to get more people to order online? There's a variety of reasons why ordering online is good for Domino's. The ticket price is higher.

There's lower margin of error. They don't have to pay for somebody to answer the phone. There's a lot of good reasons for it. And typically what people would do is, and I remember that's what my boss at the time said, was like, come up with something. Just don't do like dollar off ordering online. Like don't try to come up with something that isn't giving it away for free,

which is something that most people would do because they thought, well, if I can get you to just try it once, then maybe you'll get interested in the idea of doing it online. So anyway, I simultaneously to work on Domino's, or at least as a leadership team, you have to go to pizza school. Maybe I don't know if they still do it, but it was like a week-long training to be like a manager.

And I learned that the whole system was attached to a, like every dominoes literally has a physical button between each station because they're all kind of, it's all about speed and efficiency. And you as a local domino's store, you get as a manager, you get bonus based on that efficiency. So I'm like, wait a minute. At any given moment, I know when an order's been taken, I hit a button. I know when a pizza is being prepped, I hit a button. I know when it's in the oven, it takes six minutes. I hit a button. I know when it's,

you have all this information. Yeah. Cool. Why don't we make a thing? And we also knew from an insights perspective that like when people ordered pizza or food and home up the phone, they were kind of left with like, I don't know.

I don't know if it's. I was just thinking of being an agency guy and coming up on the account and strategy side, I was in my planner head going. You have a, you have a consumer that with online ordering especially, the nether world that that goes into. And an insight is. consumers are they have no idea what is the stats that control they have no control and you've you've

you've met you bring that to life you know you know backing my way into this brief as you're talking and and and and so we we originally said well let's just this is perfect you already have the information let's create a consumer facing uh you know um dashboard at the moment it was like this little pill looking thing and it just had these sections and it just pulsed and told you where it was. And again, it could tell you, you know, the name of the person doing the prep and the name of the, it told you the name of the delivery driver, because all that information was in their system. So also, you knew like, oh, Ron is coming, he's going to be here soon. And just sort of knowing the name of the person is like, helped you. And then originally, it was

exclusive for online orders. Now, I think if you call or whatever, you can use the pizza tracker no matter what. But that's what it was. So we came up with a tool that didn't cheapen brand or create a discount and and it did more than we didn't do like ads. It weren't like a TV ad or anything. It was just like that. And it worked really, really well. So I always, I like to reference that just because it reminds me like focus on the problem. Like I think a lot of times in our industry, we jump so quickly to like, what's the creative

execution? What's the creative? What's the creative? What's the creative? And I'm like, spend 80% of your time on the problem, the business channel. challenge, the audience, the insight, do that. And then like 20% of your time on, because it'll be there. You'll be like, oh, here's the obvious solution. So that, you know, that was, that was really, really fun. I worked. Can we hire you to be a politician or a president or something to, you know,

like, I think focus on the problem. That's probably going to be the title of this podcast. But it's like, it's so true. things too because we become so about everything else you know yeah it was funny one of my uh Andrew Keller who is the the executive creative director right under Bugusty there he said a thing to me once that I have which is interesting I remember I went into his office I was mad about something or there was some issue I think we had a campaign that was sold and then there was feedback and and I went in there and I was expecting him to be like I'll call him up and tell him I'm like, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And I remember he didn't, and he said the one thing that is probably been the best advice I've ever had in my career. And he said, dude, he's like, the minute you learn to love solving problems is the minute you're going to learn that you love this job. Yeah. And as a creative person that just hit me really hard, is like, that is the job. It's like, and so, and I think when I showed up at Vayner Media years later, I was all of a sudden confronted surprisingly with like a pretty big problem. Like it just was like I didn't this is insane.

Like the department set up weird. We don't even have strategy. It was just so foreign to me. Yeah. At that point like no, no, no, I want to solve this problem. And I think it's one of the reasons I started made in-house. Trust me, every in-house agency is just a big problem. No one has figured it out. It's all over the place. And I like to pop in and go, this is fun. This is fun to fix these things. Yeah. Well, the whole in-house thing is, you know, brands think they can cherry pick. I can get, I can hire a writer, a graphic designer, a creative person, account person, and well, we solved it, you know. I know, you know, there's method to the Mattis. But I do, you know, transitioning to the VaynerMedia thing. It's always been fascinating, you know,

working in a New York agency, you know, working at other agencies, now owning an agency. You know, Gary has the anti-agency vibe. He's the anti-agency vibe. He's the. He's the anti-New York agency. And I'm like, you know, you hire 800 people and they all work in New York. You very much are a New York agency. I don't care what you call it or what you say. There's just a way that things become when you start hiring people that have worked at a million other agencies. So I don't know how, I know he has culture and I'm not knocking that at all. I'm just more talking philosophically about, you know, the anti-agency theme. But it sounds like you may have brought some of that anarchy, you know, because again, you've got to be operational.

You know, it's one thing to move fast, but it's a whole other thing to operationally solve problems and get things done. Well, I do think like, yeah, it's, I mean, it definitely is. It's a big agency based in New York, you know. But I think like, you know, that's also an interesting thing where, because that's something I never really, you know, that was kind of his narrative.

My narrative is very less. It's like everything, everybody has potential to be great. Like I don't need to like, but that's, you know, I'm not a CEO that I don't own the company. And I think that was a lot of what he did was like, hey, I'm going to kind of knock everything else down to kind of build myself up. Because like that's, you can't really just say,

oh, big New York agency. It's like there's so many different colors in that statement. There's, you know, I mean, Crispin was a big, not New York, but they were big agencies. Seventy-20 Sunny's a big agency. Jorga, Wyden's a big agency. These are all great. McCann. They're, yeah.

I mean, McCann's, you know. And it's like, so I don't really know. It's not that. I think the thing where, where Gary and I read and kind of what sparked me eventually to say, okay, I'm on the same page with this guy. And so I'll move out to New York was. not the agency or anything, but just the mindset. I don't think there's anything wrong with like business model or like the model or anything. It's the mindset.

And that was very much like, I believe very much in making versus talking about stuff forever and focus grouping and getting a million people. And a lot of agencies located anywhere in the world historically have made their money by selling a service that requires a lot of FTEs, full-time employees, to spend a lot of time to make something that costs a lot of money because they get the markup on that. That is the model. And that made so much sense back then.

Coming to today's world where marketers need the exact opposite. They're like, I need a whole bunch of really awesome content. I need it yesterday. And I need it for half the cost. But I still made it to be really, really good. That is maybe the difference. If I were to say we're, you know, at Vayner, the goal was like, we want to be that. And that does stand in a little bit of contrast to a quote unquote big New York agency with an old model.

But the reality is, you know, and one of the things that even everybody struggles with, even at Vayner we struggle with is like, how do we really do that? How do we really make, how do we get into a system that can? produce the volume of quality for the cost that is required in a world where brands have a Snapchat lens to a Super Bowl commercial and everything in between. And that was that was difficult to do. And again, I'm certainly not a CFO, but I have a lot of empathy for the CFO there where it's like, no, we have to make money. Yeah. I can't do da da da da which again is why I was like, let me see if I can make this work in-house. But, Yeah, but also I think he's a sales, and when he's a motivational speaker, his, his, his tool is his mouth.

He talks. Like, and he likes, he likes controversy. He likes saying stuff because everyone stirred up. And so that's just kind of his, that's his schick. That's his, that's his thing. How was, you know, how was the culture there? I mean, you know, is it, was it everything he made it seem? I mean, I know no sales, you know, is, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the culture.

end product is never live up to you know some of the the the statements that are made or the salesmanship that happens but um it was how was the culture there you know because yeah it was good i mean it was you know i remember when i got there i was actually originally kind of shocked and i think maybe because it's just the first time in my career where i was like i was the old person just because everybody felt so young um i do remember being like man i'm not used to this many like feelings. Like it was like at Chris men, it was just like, you just shut up and you do it. And if someone says, this isn't right, do it again, you just went back. And it was, I was so, maybe I was so like in this like military. Yeah.

All of a thing I came to a spot where I came in and said, hey, I don't think this is right. Let's try this and this and this. And the reaction was like, no, you've hurt my feelings. I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this. Like, go. So, but I think the culture was fine. My, the biggest challenge for me was it wasn't a culture rooted in creativity. It's a media company. Founded by a business guy. So it was a lot about just like efficiency

and just making stuff and I'm I was charged with coming in and that was a little bit of the healthy struggle was like no no no no this stuff matters. Humans are emotional people so the actual creative that we make needs to be able

to connect with that emotion but it just it's not in there. So the culture is really sort of hustle, Gary Vee, entrepreneur, starting businesses, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And it was a challenge. I like a culture that's a little bit more celebratory of the product that we make. So, for example, when we would have like our town hall meetings or our all-agency meetings, like it was the first agency where I had ever worked where we didn't show creative work that we had done recently.

And that was hard. You know, I don't know. I think it was, and I would always ask Gary, like, can we do that? Can we do that? And I think he, I just, you know, my sense is he wanted this. He's like, no, I'll have the microphone. This is the Gary V thing. This isn't the work.

Yeah. And to me, I was always like, you know, even working at places like Crispin, where it's like Alex Bogusky at the time was like the Michael Jordan of advertising. Yeah. Still just all about the work. He never even, he didn't like to speak. He didn't like to do any of that stuff. And so I was very used to that.

So I started kind of having. my own town halls that were just creative showcases. It's like it's important for us. We're big enough. It's important for us to see the work, to celebrate the work, to see the work that we don't know that we've even made because another team made it.

I just, I believe that's a really healthy culture. It's around the product that we make. But it's, I would say the culture is fine. It was friendly. It was friendly. It was very big. And, but I prefer personally a culture that's more around, right?

the product we make. And I think that is what actually really unites and brings people together. Sometimes the culture at Vayner was difficult just because it was kind of the byproduct of whatever Gary was saying that week. And so he'd be off on it, now we're doing this. And everyone's like scrambling and be like, now we're that agency. He's like, now we're doing this. And we're like, now we're that agency.

So sometimes it was a little challenging. But for the most part, it was like, I can't say it was like, at least during my time there, there was nothing like. expect like there was no like ooh that's the golden ticket of a culture yeah it's fine was was uh you know we talked about this a little bit pre-episode you know the it's got to be a little tough because look everybody wants some credit right like we're human beings you know and you strike me is not necessarily a little bit i know about you i think you take pride in the work but you don't it doesn't have to have Steve's name on it every time necessarily.

I'm sensing that about you. Yeah. But whether it's you or whether it's the fiefdom you had there, you know, the guys you're motivating, when it's all about one person. And look, he's super successful. I look up to him in certain ways, you know, I am not a hater. But it is always fascinating to me of wondering what can,

how you have longevity there and self-motivation when it doesn't seem like anyone else gets the idea credit. And I guess you just have to be okay with that there because I'm sure, you know, I hear things out of his mouth and I'm like, this guy's got more ideas than anybody I know. And I know that's natural, but whose mouth did this really come out of? You know, because I've heard some things that he said that I've heard you say. And I'm not again trying to create this divide. It's more interest in, you know, how you keep people motivated when, you know, the idea seem to all credit one individual.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think philosophically, why you maybe have heard a lot of the things we've said similarly is because we do have, we agree there. I think I'll typically say them a little bit differently, et cetera, but when it comes to like creative and things like that, you know, my philosophy as a leader has always been to empower pretty much everybody else and to give that credit to everybody else because you know that that is like catnip to a cat you know they like they want that and they want to grow and do more of that

and so but I do think it's it's a bit of a challenge you know for if and again I really don't know what it's like to have 8 million followers on Instagram and to be stopped everywhere I go and and we would like everywhere we go it's like we're getting selfies for people shaking hands like you know and and I I and to me that actually I mean I think I'm quite kind and social but I don't like that I'd be like you know I would start to get noticed a little just like you're Steve you know just by by association and I'd be like yep and I'm going to dinner see you later like I don't get he loves that and that's why he's so good at it like he genuinely loves that there's no act it is him and he loves it I'm more of an introvert I guess but I think when you are when

your whole, like, livelihood is being in the spotlight. I mean, that is his thing. Like, he's the one with the microphone. He's the one talking. He's the other day. I think he just naturally sort of by default, you're not used to saying, like, oh, I'm going to give the spotlight to somebody else.

Yeah. I never felt like there was any, it was just weird. It was like, you know, I, I, I find myself defending him a lot, you know, when people want to talk about him or whatever, because it's like, I found him to be. one of the better kind of human beings that I've ever known. Like, just he has such a kind heart. Yeah.

He really does hear. But I do think he gets in this moment where that grapples with the celebrityism and just sort of what you're used to. So I don't find that if there's ever been a time where I'm like, ah, dude, I think you should have given the credit to somebody else. I think this for this. I've never found it like intentional or malicious. It was just like, you kind of are in that zone.

where it's that's your brand and that's your vehicle and you feel like you're the best sounding board to tell the world, hey, this is what we're doing and I'm doing it and I'm doing it and I'm doing it because you feel like you have to put it all on your shoulders for it to be successful. So it's an interesting, it's kind of an interesting scenario where you would see it. And sometimes there'd be people that would kind of come up to me like, man, like we came up with that. Like, would it have been that hard for him to say thanks to the team or whatever? And it's like he doesn't mean it. I've worked with people who do mean it in the past.

And I promise it's different. For me, personally, I think we work well together because I was okay with that. I'm fine with it being like, fine. Take the, like, you know. Maybe I would be better. Maybe I'd be further along in my career if I was more bullish about those things. I just don't have it in me. And so I think we work well together where I would be like, you know, like I don't need.

I don't need that part. But I would feel that sometimes when people who are on my team did need it. And I wouldn't. That's kind of more of the question in a little bit. See all your team that's doing all these things. And yeah. Being a CEO there, at least in the beginning part, was a bit of a challenge because you were this middle man.

Like, okay, all the creatives there were like, cool. We have a creative leader. And he knows what we want and da-da-da-da-da. And then kind of being the middle man of trying to go. hey, well, this is where Gary's taking agency, or this is what he said, and da-da-da-up. So it's definitely a challenge versus, like I said, agencies where creativity is the culture,

doesn't matter your position. Everyone's like, we know the North Star. Like, whether I could be the custodial person there, and I know, like, Chris was like, it did not matter what job you had. You knew why what the North Star of that agency was. I was at Vayner, that was probably, if there was a number one challenge,

was like you had no idea what the North Star was, just depended on the week, you know. Yeah. I had my North Star and sometimes Gary had his and sometimes somebody else had theirs. And that was a bit of a bit of a challenge was just kind of trying to, trying to do that. So I, well, I attribute this line to you or him, creativity is the ultimate variable of success. That's his line. Yeah. That's his line.

I would find at times where I'm like, I would say it back to him when I felt like he wasn't when he was sort of poo-pooing or just kind of going to be how great. I'm like, you say yourself, it's the variable success. I love it. Yeah, no, that's that's his line for sure. Cool. Is the platform, you know, for him, I mean, because I almost think, you know, Gary is the ultimate variable of success with very,

you know, like, you know, and I think, so like, I mean, it he just says it, like if he went away, you know, where does the agency go? And so, I mean, I don't know that that's true or not true, but we'll see how he goes. But I look up to him for, I mean, he's been super successful and kind of, I love how he kind of, you know, shoots the middle bird at, you know, anyone and everyone that's like, doubts him and, you know, but I do wonder, like, when you do that, it's, you think, how do you foster and how could you have foster entrepreneurship when the only entrepreneur really allowed to be the entrepreneur is the leader you know like so I wonder when

that will be an issue you know because you really need he needs sheep more than anything else in a way so I don't know where that when that rubber hits the road but hey success is obviously there so no like I said I can't I don't know what it's like to wear his shoes, although he gave me a pair of his shoes. So I guess this is the one time when that analogy makes a lot of sense. One of his many case with shoes. Yeah. But, you know, that's an ultimate challenge, I think, to any leader.

And again, he's a special, there's a reason he's successful. And there's a reason he's who he is. He has a lot of character traits, especially work ethic, that's unlike anything I've ever seen. But, and I even saw this at Crispin, too. When Alex left Crispin, it was like, whoa, you know, like he hadn't really prepared the bench. And I think that exit was a little unexpected for Alex.

But, you know, that was definitely a challenge for a lot of observation I made there. There was, you know, there was a lot of the C-suite there. with me, we had Chief Strategy Officer, just what most agencies have, was like, you know, I always felt like it is important, not even for me as an individual, just as an agency.

I always felt that it was important for VaynerMedia to be able to build a reputation amongst the industry and amongst potential clients. That was, yeah, Gary's the CEO of it, but there is a lot to this place. There's a lot of other stuff you may or may not know of. Because you would look across the board and I'd be like,

there are some, And there is some of the best talent I'd ever worked for, especially in the media side. I mean, there was some people on the media side, strategists, of course, creative. And it was like, I really feel like we need to. In fact, right before I left, we finally did hire an individual to just kind of come in and be sort of PR and like grow these stories and get so it just wasn't here. Because either way, Gary's always polarizing. So half of the half potential clients like them.

and the other have hate them or whatever or don't like him. And I was like, either way, it's important to pull that curtain back a little bit because there's 900 people here who make this place work. And I think it's important to, it's one thing where, especially in the creative side, I always like, and I'm always, admire creative leaders who, you know, work to get their executive creative directors or group creative directors to get them some air time, to get them on podcasts or writing articles or whatever. I just think that's really important.

it's hard. I understand as a creative leader, you're like, there is this natural sense. Everyone has a little insecurity of like, well, I don't want this person right below me to seem better than me

because then they'll take my job or whatever. I just think at the end of the day, like even if they do take your job, like if you've grown them to be able to take your job, you've done your job. Yeah. But I just, I find that's always the better approach

is to always be building your army because that's how you can scale. And that's, and I still haven't seen even in the year since I've been out of Vayner. I still haven't seen that that's been done very well. And so yeah, I think if he did leave, it would be kind of like, what the heck? I don't know if anyone would know. That's Vader maybe.

I mean, you know, his name is the thing. But I don't think he's leaving. So I hope he's not. No, I hope he's not either. But transition just for a minute, you know, to, you know, you've built. We're building made in house. I know just like everyone that COVID is kind of like rock the boat, I'm sure, with just, you know, opportunities and projects being paused and everythings like that.

But I am curious philosophically, you know, your creative North Star now, if you so call it. You know, I know we've talked a little bit about the media company side. So maybe dive into that a bit. but, you know, what's your kind of overall philosophy for where you see things going, you know, both, I guess, post-COVID and, you know, if there's going to be an impact, but I love to kind of get some thoughts there. Yeah, I mean, I think my hope is, you know, on the other side of this. I do think you're seeing the industry, or for the most part, you're seeing a lot of brands learn a valuable lesson, which is like to really, really focus on the insight and the needs of the consumer.

You know, I think right out of the gates, all the brands did that usual thing of just like, and these unprecedented, you know, just kind of saying, making an ad and not really realizing, wait a minute. Q dramatic music. Yeah, like pianos. And then there was a second wave that I think was better where all of a sudden Rance took a step back and they thought, okay, this is unlike anything we've ever experienced. People are quarantined in their homes.

Their kids are out of school. They're trying to learn from home. Parents are going. And they've had to then go now that all, and it was also one of the first times, at least in my lifetime, where I've ever seen like there was like a poll 70% of people do not want to hear from brands right now.

It's just like, it's just the last thing you want to hear. When you're someone that's like, I don't even know if I'm going to have money to buy mac and cheese. I don't want a mac and cheese, you know, and it was like everyone was grappling with this. And then brands started to get smart and go, okay, well, here's the, and I think also brands will start to focus more on having meaning

that transcends just the thing they sell. This is why we exist as a brand. We can have a reason. We can have a place in. culture that is beyond just the product that we sell or the service we sell. So brands started to say, well, we have that. And now, given this current reality, how can we go in and answer and meet the needs of our consumer based on their situation? And so, you know, you were seeing some, some fun things that, or a lot of brands were also saying, we need to help. So let's use our

media dollars to remind people that they need to stay home or they need to wear a mask. or they need to do whatever. So my hope is that once we get, you know, back to where we're out in society and doing these things, that brands will not forget, even when things are completely normal or whatever, that like, let's still spend that time, let's still spend 80% of the time on the problem and on the audience.

Let's spend way more of that. And it's not necessarily to break. I guess my message would be more to creatives, just because that's the realm I've been in. I want creative market, creative people at agencies or in-house or whatever to go, always, no matter what the situation is, is spend all the time you can, understanding the problem and understanding your audience. Don't jump so quickly to just like, I just want to make an ad to talk at people versus like spend the time, invest the time in them and then you're going to talk with them, you know. Yep. I did a webinar last week for Greenville Home Builders.

they invited me on to do it for their their association or whatever. And I talk about customer-centric marketing is going to win the day. I think it's down that. Yeah. Product-centric, central, or service-centric versus customer-centric. And solving solutions for the problems that, solving problems that consumers have with your marketing instead of speeds, feeds. features, all those things.

That's right. So I think you're going to see the ones that can do that even elevate higher because, to your point with the surveys, look, it's so funny, all the stuff that's going on, I've told people, these snowballs were rolling downhill. A lot of these themes, Summers don't want to be market to, Summers don't want to be sold, Sims don't want to hear from brands. These things, these are like little bonfires that have gas being poured on. them with everything going on, you know, in a lot of ways. You know, companies needing, you know,

being a little inflated needing to be leaner. You know, all that was trending. And now we're just like and being able to, you know, the quarantine, I think has been interesting just because it's, it's forced a very scrappy style of production. Yeah. Something that you just need to do no matter what. You need to. be able to back to what we were talking about way earlier was like just to be able to make the volume and still make it good at the cost. And so it's been really interesting there. It's like how do you go back to, you know, again, once we get on the other side of this, how do you maintain those principles of like, well, we know how to shoot this for, we know how

to be more cost effective. I think agency structure like you just said is like you don't need at 18 levels of chief global creative, you know, galactic creative office. You don't need it, you know, and, you know, for the first time in my career, you're seeing those kinds of individuals, you know, unfortunately, but you're seeing them let go. And you're like, wait a minute, what? And it's like, at the end of the day, when you can no longer charge a client just to have huge exorbitant salaries, you know, you do have to focus on.

I don't think there's room anymore. If you're creative especially, there's no more room for just thinkers and idea people. You have to be able to do something that makes that idea real in some way. Like it's just, you can't have the 18 people to screw in a light bulb. You've got to be able to go,

hey, I can come up with that idea and I can at least make a prototype of it, or I can at least do this, or I can at least do this. And I think that is awesome. We have the tools. It's so easy to make and to create And there's just, if there's anything really is like, that's going to be the thing. COVID-19 or whatever won't erase advertising.

But it's going to make those who fail to say, hey, I need to be able to offer more than just an idea. I need to be able to do something to make that idea reality. Yeah, the kumbaya moments of, you know, 12 people around the creative director. And let's share our ideas. That one's no good. one's good. I don't know. I think those days are, uh, you can still have those 12, those 12 people, but they're all making every one of those ideas. It's like, that one, get that one made. Let's do that one. That's the world we have to be in. And,

and then also the creative director's like, and I've got two I'm going to be making. I'll see you guys tomorrow and we'll look at what we got. Like, it's got to be that. When we were, you know, we built radical in that very mold. We're very no bureaucracy and our creative director, you know, is he's working on his two and grading the other four or grading is the wrong word, but evaluating, you know, assisting, seasoning, you know. But it's fascinating. What's the future hold for Steve Babcock? Jeez, that's the golden question.

You know, this last year has been really probably one of the more interesting years of my career. I waited kind of a long time to try the entrepreneurial thing and maybe was emotionally the worst time just with kids and all that you know but like but it taught me a lot it was like wait I can do this like it's you know I don't know if I'm really an entrepreneur like but it was very I was always scared of doing it and I got out there was like way I can do this and I've really really enjoyed working on the brand side and like I said every time I step in, it's like, awesome.

There's a great problem. We can easily fix this. And I've really enjoyed watching that transformation and just being, there's a lot of, I don't know, I've worked in advertising for 20 years and not until Maiden House was like the first time I've ever had someone thank me, you know, for helping them out. There's just, I don't know why. I think maybe the industry of advertising is such a thankless job. and to go in there and have conversations after you spend like a month with a team and to have like the lead creative there coming to you after and just be like I want to thank you so much for how much you've helped me.

It's just I don't know. I feel really good about it. I will say the travel that is required for consultants is like a bit much. It's a bit heavy. But probably is no surprise. You know, I remember March 12th exactly. All of my stuff just went, we're going to put this on. We're going to dry.

So it's made analysis is very much on pause. I mean, I'm doing like a few things here and there, but not at the level that we want. I don't think half the world is doing the things at the level. So right now it's a little bit of a, of a wait and see. Like is this going to, what kind of, you know, how long is this going to take? But also, you know, thinking a little bit about, hmm, I wonder if, you know, I've been noodling a little bit about how to to take made in-house and turn it into something that's a little bit more of an agency based on a lot of the philosophies that I've learned by spending time in-house.

And I've got a couple concepts where I'm like, that would work really well. And I'll admit there are times where I'm like, man, I miss having a big team of people. I do sometimes I miss like, I don't know if it's an agency, but or maybe it's a brand if they want to start it in, you know, if there's something. I do miss that sort of like, because even as a consultant, even if you spend some time there, you're still an outsider. Yeah. And I do, I kind of miss that little, like, family mentality.

So what's next is as good a guess as anybody can have, just kind of like everybody taking it sort of week by week. Like I said, I'm a father with three, three kids and two of them are teenagers. So that's a big part of my life and just kind of figuring it out. But I don't know. I think after a year of Maiden House, I've learned that, the pivot can be fun and can be good. So I'm okay going like, I don't know.

We'll see. Maybe I'll become an professional e-sports player. I've been getting pretty good at Fortnite with my kid. So maybe I'll be the oldest professional e-sports guy. Who knows? Hey, there's your media company right there. Twitch is blowing up. Watching people play video games.

You know? You ever seen that old white ball guy on Twitch? He's rad. One of my dear friends is actually, I wouldn't call him this. He's definitely older. I think you and I are similar in age, probably more than you realize. I'm 43. I just heard 43.

There we go. So my good friend, Scott Cole, he is the voice of NBA 2K. And he's huge. Look him up, Scott Cole's Coltrane. But he's huge in e-sports. and as a personality, he's a hell of a video game player, but he's personality, he's done stuff with Madden, and he's been on NFL network and done a lot of things.

But he's he's the old ball dude on e-sports right now, but I think there's room for more. I love it, man. Esports is, I mean, I'm a small investor. I'm no Gary V, but I'm a very small investor in a couple of e-sports things. And I just, it's a, and again, I have a son who's very, into it. I love that world. I think it's a lot of fun. I think brands can, it's a place where brands need

to get more involved in beyond just like NASCAR logos on jerseys and things. It's a point for man, it's like creativity is just waiting to explode in e-sports because right now it's still just sponsorships and blah, blah, blah, versus like getting and come up with something because I think a lot of brands and a lot of the world just doesn't understand how gigantic e-sports really is. I mean, it is beyond. So it's a lot of fun. So yeah, I don't know. We'll see. If I can have my way, I'd become a talk show host. So maybe maybe I'll get, maybe I'll be on a tonight show. Well, the more of these you do, maybe we're just, we're building on your reel if nothing else. There you go. That's all I'm really doing. Yeah. This is all for me. Steve, where can

everybody keep up with you? What's the best way to find out? Well, fortunately, I am one of two Steve Babcock's in the world that I've ever been able to find. The other one is a karate instructor, I think, in Indiana. So if you Google Steve Babcock and get the karate guy, I've tried to hit him up because he owns stevebababcom.com. But it turns out he's got a pretty healthy karate instructor, you know, business going on. But yeah, just, I mean, we're pretty active on Instagram.

At Steve Happens is my handle there. or LinkedIn or just email Steve Babcock at gmail.com. So I'm pretty much on the internet. Cool, man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and look forward to kind of continue in our dialogue. And, you know, it's fascinating. I know we just scratched the surface on a lot of the brands and campaigns you worked on. But I think there's some really good nuggets here for just, you know, your philosophy with creative,

your philosophy with teams. and I know that our audience will really appreciate your insight, and I appreciate you to spend the time. Absolutely. I appreciate you having me. It's been a lot of fun, and yeah, it's been a good conversation. Thanks for having me on. All right, guys, that's all for today's episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast. I want to appreciate Steve Babcock for coming on.

We'll see you next time. To learn more about Radical, visit Radical.company on the web, or follow Ryan on Instagram. Instagram at Ryan Alford. Thanks for listening to the Radical Marketing Podcast.