Right About Now with Ryan Alford - Anthony ‘Nippy’ Ames - Former Ivy League Quarterback, Actor, and Podcast Host.

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode on The Radcast! Get ready for Anthony ‘Nippy’ Ames, Former Ivy League Quarterback, Actor, and Podcast Host.In this episode on The Radcast, host Ryan Alford talks with guest Anthony Ames about how he got involved with NXIVM (formerly Executive Success Programs). Nippy shared about the problems he’s uncovered while dealing with influential and/or powerful forces in the organization. Talks about his podcast ‘A Little Bit Culty’, where he and his wife share how their life has changed. How they turned their experiences into wisdom and content. Learn more about A Little Bit Culty at https://www.alittlebitculty.com/, Instagram (@alittlebitculty),  reach out to Anthony Ames via Instagram (@anthonyames11), and check out HBO’s The Vow.If you enjoyed this episode of The Radcast, let us know by visiting our website www.theradcast.com or leave us a review on Apple Podcast. Be sure to keep up with all that’s radical from @ryanalford @radical_results @the.rad.cast If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more, join Ryan’s newsletter https://ryanalford.com/newsletter/ to get Ferrari level advice daily for FREE.  Learn how to build a 7 figure business from your personal brand by signing up for a FREE introduction to personal branding https://ryanalford.com/personalbranding.  Learn more by visiting our website at www.ryanisright.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel  www.youtube.com/@RightAboutNowwithRyanAlford. 

I figured out pretty quickly there's no way you're going to get people to put sashes on, bow down to a vanguard, and do these rules and rituals. And I just said, yes, I'm out. I felt like incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be qualified with. When we did get competent people, say with Harvard business degrees or stuff like that, they were gaslit into thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work. We like to work with the person. You're all about results. Just like that went on all the time.

The first thing you do, the first thing I did is I just, you got to get out of the clutches of it physically, out of any sort of range so you can recoup, you can strategize. I would find people that are doing what you want to do at the highest level and figure out what they do, you know, in terms of a pursuit. You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I'm Ryan Alford. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast. I'm Ryan Alford, your host. And we've got a pretty radical topic here today.

I'm excited about this to kind of go down different angles, but I'm also just excited for everyone to hear if you haven't heard this story. I've got Anthony Ames joining the podcast today. Anthony, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Hey man. Actor, you've probably seen Anthony, some of his work. Podcast host, a little bit culty, which, hey, is a little bit of a tease into our discussion today. We didn't leave much

off the table there. Yeah, it's on the nose. I know. Formery league quarterback even you know i i you're the first former uh collegiate quarterback we've had on the radcast so you can hold that and maybe the first member of x member of a cult so a lot of firsts on this one that's great i know anthony let's just start um i know we'll get into you know some of your work now and and i do want to talk about uh nexium and the cult stuff obviously but let's do for everybody listening uh you know just the the normal background and you know kind of your you know your acting career and all those kind of things and just kind of set the table for ultimately where things went maybe a little south but right yeah um so yeah um i am originally from your neck of the woods atlanta georgia um one of four boys and a little girl a little sister

um and um i don't know i guess you know in know, in terms of, you know, how I got involved, I think is where I'll fast forward to, um, with, uh, what we're calling NXIVM. Um, but it really wasn't actually NXIVM, uh, when I first joined it, it was called executive success programs. So it was more of like a coursework and eventually grew into that. So I was in after college, I went home to Atlanta for about eight months and I went to the regional NFL combine to try out and just kind of see where I stacked up. And after that, I moved to New York and probably like June of 99. And I started taking acting classes and I was started auditioning a little bit. And then I was at a party probably sometime in 2000.

And I ran into an old high school girlfriend of mine, um, that I was still kind of interested in and, but you know, it was time had passed and, um, we stayed in touch and she was originally from Albany, New York, um, which is where NXIVM headquarters were. And really the whole entire curriculum or whatever you want to call it, Colt, I'll just call it Colt and stick to it. That started. And she had told me, uh, about this program. Um, and it sounded weird from the get, and I actually said to her, I don't think I'm going to do your cult. And kind of jokingly, I didn't really think it was a cult, but it just sounded weird. And, you know, time went on, and she stayed on me about it because she knew me.

Like, when we dated, I had, like, I had books on John F. Kennedy. I had books on, you know, Troy Aikman, John Elway, all the people that I looked up to and wanted to aspire to be like. Everyone's got mentors when they're young or when you want to go do something, you see who's doing what you want to do at a high level and you check it out. So I was always into stuff like that. And she knew that. So I was always, you know, into stuff like that. And she knew that. And she basically said, look, this is a program that helps people with that and where they're limited. She's like, you're not limited anywhere, but emotionally. And those were all things that had me nodding and saying yes. Also was someone I trusted. I'd known since I was, you know, 15 years old and I'd known her family since I was 15 years old and I hadn't known her family since I was 15 years old. And I think what really got me one time is I had just finished like an independent film. And every time I did kind of a project or something like that, I would go take kind of a vacation, see a friend somewhere.

And she's like, what are you going to do? Just go party for a week instead of work on yourself. And then I kind of went, I was like, you know what? She's fucking right. I am going to do that. So she kind of not, I was like, you know what? She's fucking right. I am going to do that. So she kind of not, I wouldn't say manipulated, but I would say she knew my values and she knew it was important to me. And she kind of presented that to me in a moment of like, you know,

she held me hostage to it a little bit. And there was one other factor too, is that she had told me her dad had done it. And I always respected her dad. Her dad's a brain surgeon. He played football at Yale. And it was kind of someone that I felt like if he had done it, you know, how bad could it be? And so I took, you know, what was a lot of money for me at the time, um, to $2,000, $2,160. I think

it was, was, and I went up to Albany, Nework and took a five-day training in june of 2001 and i was kind of the arms folded guy at first you know um really wasn't gonna let myself be drawn into it um it was weird from the get um but finally after like two or three days, it got into some practical stuff. Practical stuff that I'm sure a guy like you or anyone that wants to perform and introspective and wants to problem solve their own lives could use. I've since found a lot of that stuff was stolen, ripped off,'ve actually found the actual places where uh it was ripped off there's a book i read called power versus force it's by david hawkins um not to be confused with david hawking's um and um amazing book and literally i mean down to the metaphors and the examples in the book were in the curriculum three, three times, three, like literal, like examples. And I I'm reading that going, fuck me. I could have read this book 20 years ago. It would have saved a lot of, a lot of hassle. Um, so I finished the five

day. I had a really, really good experience by the end. And that's kind of how they set it up, right? You, you leave, you have, you know, know i'm 26 27 at the time i haven't done cognitive behavioral work i haven't done this so it's very new to me right and it's not in our traditional education systems and in terms of self-awareness and and things that were getting me to think differently it was very very positive um it's just it's just was just just like the the form of you see all the, you know, before it was the rage and for social media, but now it's all life coaching and all that. Is this just life coaching on steroids? Yes. Yes. And other aspects of it too that were interesting, you would go into breakout groups and you would get multiple perspectives from different people,

which I found very, very helpful. Also, you know, in some of them, you know, there were people there that were, you know, the range of people from like a brain surgeon to like an 18 year old kid who wanted to be a better wrestler in his high school team. So it felt very positive. And those are the things that I'm really sensitive to. Like I, I, you have to really discipline your mind to get negative emotions out of it. And you have to be self-aware to do that and that was just some of the things that I always try to get out of my psychology and understand the origin of which I think is helpful for anyone you know if you want to be successful and I come from an atmosphere in my household where there was a lot of I wouldn't say negative reinforcement but I'll give you an example of something that happened to me.

The Olympics were in Atlanta in 1996. And I can remember one night, my brothers and I were out till like probably 5 in the morning. And, you know, I come home, my dad's there. He comes into my room around 7, opens the door, and goes, Troy Aikman's not sleeping. And would leave leave out leave the room right so it was that kind of like enforcement and reminder of our goals and look it works to a certain extent you know you read about coaches some kids need to pat on the ass some kids need to be yelled at i got a little bit of both i'm i'm pretty sensitive um and i found that

understanding the origin of that of how i beat myself up to achieve things was one of the things I got out of the first five day. And I felt evolving that was a very positive thing for my psychology. And I really developed the self-awareness to go, I don't need to do the negative reinforcement. I can frame it in a positive way. reinforcement. I can frame it in a positive way. So just having something like that almost felt like that was worth, you know, price of admittance. Who knows if I could have read a book or done something else on the own at the time, but for whatever reason, this is how I evolved that. And so I was pretty content with what I got there and wasn't really interested in going forward, but my ex-girlfriend was pretty convincing at the time. She's like, you know, come finish the 11 days. And I did in August of 2001. Um, was this like friends with benefits or is this like, well, you know, that's what I was hoping. So there was two reasons I was there, right. I was kind of hoping that I could get back together with her. Um, but

you know, and, and, you know, a lot of case by case as to why people would do that, but I was still interested in her. And part of what I was doing was for her. And part of it was like, Oh, this is actually some good stuff. So it was a combination of things. Um, you know, some people, you know, as the organization grew, we were doing intro events where people like come do your, and it got a little salesy, which I was never really comfortable with. Um, I was more of like, that's just, if that felt icky. Um, so anyway, like that's, that's 2001 kind of right before nine 11. And I decide, um, cause they really wanted people in hindsight, I recognize what they were doing is they just wanted coaches and then coaches would staff the trainings. And they told me you can become a coach and you get to staff the trainings and shadow and do the trainings for

free. Like I can be in there, staff, you know, do coffee, whatever and whatever. And then they started running them in New York city. So I was in New York city and the only way I could take their curriculum was take a three hour bus ride to, to Albany, New York. And then they started setting one up in New York city. So for me, it was kind of an easy thing of, okay, I can still audition, be in New York, have both these things. I actually was sitting down budgeting stuff. Like I figured out, I went out once or twice a week. I would spend at least $300, you know, going out and doing things that weren't towards my goals to be involved with ongoing curriculum, $300 a month. It just felt like I cut that out of my life and I invest it. That was a no brainer for me.

Practical. And so I'm involved as a coach for probably about another year and a half. And then it just dawns on me. The only place you could take it was, it was Albany, like the intensive. And then you could do the weekly classes in New York and it just wasn't a well-oiled machine. And I figured out pretty quickly, there's no way you're going to get people to put sashes on, bow down to a vanguard and do these rules and rituals. And I just said, cool, you guys have something good. I'd send a friend or two there under circumstances. I always kept in the back of the mind and conversations with people. Cause I

would say, Hey, if that's what you're looking for, I did this and this was fun. And I'd send a couple of friends here and there. And I wasn't involved with the organization for about, let's say three years, but it wasn't, it wasn't volatile. It wasn't like I was, you know, pissed at anyone. I knew anything was going on. It was literally a course that I would send friends to and NXIVM didn't exist as its title yet. It was called executive success programs. And that was the only company that existed at the time. Um, and then that Forbes article came out in 2003 and you need to understand this, this organization started in 1998. And in about three or four years, the president of the organization, Nancy Salzman,

was working with Edgar Bronfman, head of Seagram's Liquor, and head of the Jewish Halal Center. So head of some very powerful in religion, head of someone, I forget the woman's name, at Black Entertainment Television. She was coaching them. And then there was someone from Mexico, kind of head of medicine in Mexico. She was in the ear of three pretty influential people in a very short amount of time. So it was kind of a ragtag on its grassroots level, but there was an aspect of it where it had gotten to some influential people in a short amount of time. So it wasn't doing that because it wasn't powerful.

It was doing it because there were some aspects to it. And if you saw Fowl and you saw the series, the Dalai Lama endorse this thing, and they had a lot of people kick the tires on who nancy salzman was who keith renier was so while people look back and say hey you know i'm not i wouldn't fall not maybe you wouldn't have but a lot of other influential people did fall for it and that's what people need to start to look and understand because these cons and these kinds of things and these abuses of power, they come pretty well packaged sometimes.

And if people have the gift of gab to do this, and those are, that's a lot of the stuff that kept people in. So I decided in about December of 2003, you know, I'm not the person that's going to lead this. I didn't really want to, I, the ROI on the curriculum and kind of, you know, run its course with me. I got it and I was applying it to my life and I was in touch with Lawrence Halsman here and there. And I felt like, you know, that's going to be my relationship with the company. I don't think I'm going to be a guy

that's going to come in and teach the curriculum. And it was, it wasn't, wasn't my jam. And then I, I get cast in something in LA and around 2005, 2006, and I live in LA for a little bit. in LA in around 2005, 2006. And I live in LA for a little bit. And then they ended up, the organization in that time, in about three years, grew very, very quickly and pretty big. They were in Mexico City, Monterey. It was growing in New York City and they were just beginning to do a center in LA. And that's when Mark Vicente, a film director who, if you've seen the vow, um, he directed the movie, what the bleep do we know, which came out around 2005. It had a lot of success and he came to LA and he was telling me, Hey, listen, we have this film project. Um, people thought of you as being one of the characters in this film and

you would have to move back to New York and specifically Albany. And I'm like, well, shit, that sounds like a great opportunity, but it wasn't ESP. It wasn't next scene. It wasn't any of those things that was luring me back. It was work. And in my mind is I'm going to go shoot this film and I'm going to come back to LA or, you know, whatever, whatever comes from the film will open up other doors. And so they pay for me, they move my car, they pay for my apartment, they pay for everything to move me back to Albany, New York. And around September, August of 2006, um, we go into pre-production. I get on a helicopter in Albany, New York one day. I think it was the fall of 2006. Fly down the Hudson, land on 34th, wherever that helicopter pad is.

We go to Bergdorf Goodman. I get fitted for two suits and some stuff for wardrobe. And I think this thing's happening, right? Cut to money, cut to. There's always a problem. And and mark at this point I'm somewhat pissed at mark but I'm not paying for anything they're paying for me to be there so I'm kind of like okay so this is how it's gonna be maybe I can start auditioning like I wasn't there for the curriculum I wasn't there for

Keith yeah is in short what I'm driving I'm there for work yeah and slowly the project keeps getting punted, punted. And finally in the spring of 2007, I kind of have not a fight with Mark, but I'm like, what the fuck? Like this is my life. Like, you know, what's going on here? You know, I have that moment. He's apologetic.

He's like, look, and he starts working on another project, which I'm peripherally involved with. And I'm like, okay if the work's happening i you know i'm i'm okay you know like and so i i go to the president of the company i go look i don't want you guys paying for anything anymore i i it just didn't feel right i felt like i was you know getting a free ride and i'm someone who wants to earn their and you know that just feels better you know it just feels better to earn and like not be dependent. So I kind of take myself off the teat and I'm on my own there and it just feels better. I don't want to be, I don't want to owe anyone. Right.

And then as a group of people that want to start, you know, building in New York city and I got to, I don't know if you've ever been to Albany, New York, but it's, you know, it's uninhabitable during the winter and it's just, it's, it's a one horse town town it's not a place i wanted to spend my time a lot of time in rochester and then you know it's a similar vibe i choose new york since you know the eerie canal wasn't relevant everything's kind of pieced out exactly so um i started auditioning in new york and eventually we start we open a center there

i think 2009 so i'm like okay i'm back in New York. You know, I'm still involved with the organization. I go back and forth to Albany a lot. We've got projects working on. Uh, then I ended up running a lot of the New York city stuff. And so I think in my mind, you know, from like 2010 to 11 to when we left, I'm, I'm a guy that's teaching the curriculum in York. I'm going to Los Angeles. I'm going to Vancouver. My wife and I, we started dating in 2010, 2011, right? So now I'm going back and forth to Vancouver because now she has a center in Vancouver, right? I was very instrumental in helping her get stuff set up there. And now I'm living a lifestyle that's like, okay, cool.

I'm traveling a lot. So I'm not auditioning anymore. Right? So the thing that I originally went out to go do, I'm no longer pursuing my goals. And the very reason I got into taking this curriculum in the first place, I'm no longer doing so my dreams are on the side. Right? And it's a slow process, right? It was a slow process of slowly, you you know making the organization more important than your own dreams and goals and i started to get frustrated with that because i was always torn like imagine having a goal and then you're helping other people achieve theirs yeah and so you know that kind of you know relationship started to wear on me and I felt the time kind of being emptied out

and my aspirations and things that I wanted weren't being fulfilled. And every time I went to address it, it was like, well, what about the organization and your other goals? And I had a conversation in 2012 where I almost left with someone. It says like, look, we're building this organization that's supposed to be inspiring change and doing all those things, but I don't see it happening.

I was having these conversations five years before I left. I was like, if you think we're changing the world, we're throwing rocks at tanks. Was the curriculum changing through this whole evolution? Yes. Well, there was more companies. Changing through this whole evolution. So, yes.

Yeah. Well, there was more companies, right? So then he starts Genesse, which was the women's group. In hindsight, he starts that in 2005, which I think was really Keith's way of being like, now I have access to the women. And I can indoctrinate the women. Now, at the time, we felt – so this is how it was built. indoctrinate the women now at the time we felt so so so this is how it was built um we live in a very male dominated female influence world fair enough right we can all agree on that and for whatever reasons that happened you know men had to go out and kill and hunt and build the structures of the world while women were more nurturing and they became more of an authority in that men

became authority what they became it was for survival right and so if you subscribe to the notion that society set up somewhat on our primitive impulses that imbalance is what we're living with right now genesis you know the soft kind of is an organization that seeks to define women's power unencumbered by what men define it as fair enough that's noble that's purposeful no one would argue with those content points so you understand the indoctrination you understand the hook you understand why people would would fall for these things because nobody's thinking this guy's setting up jeunesse just basically to get laid right and the people around him which you ended up seeing in a lot of the documentaries fortified this narrative every time someone like me would go, hold on a second.

Hold on a second. They told us he was celibate. So this persona was propped up that unless you were directly around him, you didn't see anything otherwise, which is what allowed him to gain influence over a lot of people because there was a big conglomerate of people mostly women that fortified the narrative that he was this person now it didn't come without it's like really hmm you know like not everyone was like drink the that's supposed to be an insensitive turn drinking the kool-aid but i'm going to use it just because i think most people i think they get it we're talking about no not everyone went in going you know yeah sign me up a lot of people were like fuck that i'm out i've seen this before a lot of people were like hmm you had to convince

a little bit more so it's a case-by-case thing um but ultimately you know it was a case where he abused his power got people around him to propagate a narrative about who he was. And when challenged, people like me were lied to by people I trusted and were friends with that I never would have thought happened. So that's what led to the ultimate DOS branding and all that stuff. It was a 10, 15 year for some people indoctrination. And then at a certain point, when the red flags came up, I kind of felt like I didn't challenge them anymore. The organization had my trust and my loyalty until I saw with my own eyes, that shit's not what you guys are saying. And then that's when I kind of went postal. But it sounds like from the get-go,

you were a little bit of a rebel in disguise within the organization. Yeah, so I was somewhat vocal about it. I was vocal with people around me. When people go, well, I'm going to Albany to work on this, I go, don't go to Albany. Don't go there. Stay here. Do your goals. And, and I think,

um, um, the organizations, the centers and say, Mexico, Mexico, Monterey, um, Los Angeles, Vancouver, where they were goals programs. If you went into those centers, you would have been like, eh, this is fine. This is people coming once a week to work on their goals. And that's kind of what I felt like it was. It was a, it was a corporation. It was a business. Um, the other thing is, is I think it's a case by case thing. Certain people are only susceptible to a certain point and you see it in a lot of organizations. You see it in religion. Not everyone becomes a priest. People show up on Sundays, right? So it's kind of, you know, Hey, I got this, I got this out of it and I can, I can go. Also, I wasn't targeted.

I wasn't targeted. I wasn't a young hot, hot girl. I wasn't a guy. I was a guy probably kept peripheral intentionally, um, because I'd probably be a good spokesperson. Yeah. You added credibility. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, that's, that's since how I figured out how I was abused, um, not used, abused and, and abused and and and strategically um why i was sought after in la to come back and work on a film that was never going to happen i still i probably won't ever know um so was that all was that all an act do you know do you i mean look i think mark really wanted to make a film i think mark was ambitious to make a film. I think Mark was ambitious to make a film. But the way it works with these people, you know, whatever you want to call them, narcissistic sociopaths or whatever, is, you know, I would keep someone like you involved peripherally because you have a company that could promote me. And when you came to visit me, I'd tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. And you'd leave thinking we were working on something. And then if something went

wrong, I'd have a pretty good reason as to why it wouldn't go wrong until finally, after a year or two, you'd go, this guy's hot air. He doesn't do anything. That happened a lot too. People would come to town. They'd be working on a project and then they'd leave after a year or two because it didn't happen. And then when you go ask why they left, the powers that be around Keith would go, well, they didn't want to work their issues. What the fuck does that mean? You bring them there to work on a project. Their issues aren't really what they're there to work on. And that's not what I was there to work on when I went to go work on a film.

But ultimately, it became something that I kind of got gaslit into, but I also felt like, Hey, if this is work, I'm just going to tow the line a little bit until I recognized, you know, I recognized when I would go back to complain to the organization, hold them accountable that they just always had a arbitrary reason. Was this multi-level marketing though? I mean, and that's what it gets classified as. I mean, like the whole, you know, in short, yes. But when that was challenged, that was always the weird thing about the quote unquote career paths in there.

You could do a career path through doing one on one called what they're called EMS with people, which I wasn't interested in or teaching. I like teaching the goals aspects. My favorite part about it was working with what we called the GVL, which I know you have a t-shirt, which I'm not sure what that means. Greenville. Greenville. Oh, okay. So it was called goals and values lab. And I ran one in New York, um, Vancouver and was starting one in LA and basically people will come with their goals and help them with their next steps and what the missing resource was. I love doing that. I loved kind of figuring out the riddle of why people weren't achieving things. And it's, it kind of lends to like playing quarterback when like working with people, you kind of get a sense of people and what they need. And I liked being the guy that could see that and help them with that. That was fun for me.

Um, that was really where, where I went with it. And then there was, you could run a center, which is what my wife did, and then enrollment. So the enrollment ultimately, as I've come to learn, is multi-level marketing, but they didn't say it as such. And the reason they didn't say it was that is because they said multi-level marketing stole the value from people who were actually producing it. And our organization made sure that the people producing the value got compensated for their effort. So he prided himself in having these complex, multi-level marketing things that always rewarded people's effort or compensated people's effort ethically. And so we kind of were, at our worst, sanctimonious and self-righteous about that.

Right. And I think everyone at a certain point kind of felt that way about it. But we didn't see ourselves as multilevel marketers. In fact, we thumbed our noses at multilevel marketing concepts. So when did things start going south? I mean, completely. Obviously, you obviously were kind of doubting Thomas all along to a degree. To a degree. I mean, I never doubted the intent of the company, though.

I just felt like it was an inept company down to how people got paid, down to admin, down to how people were supported, down to the functionality of things. I didn't realize that all those things were intentional so that the people running the organization would always be busy putting out fires. And that's what a size two path does. They just basically create problems for everyone to be putting out. So I was always disillusioned and disenfranchised with that aspect of the company. Always from the get, I felt like incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be qualified with. When we did get competent people say with Harvard business degrees or stuff like that, they were gaslit into thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work. We like to work with the person.

You're all about results. Just shit like that went on all the time. I'd be like, what the fuck are we talking about? This guy has a Harvard business degree. He's smarter than anyone here. But that was a threat right so his his his um skill set or ability was then um pitched as a liability to the company very manipulative shit like that went on went on all the time and people were promoted somewhat out of integrity right someone would

get a position of power over someone who was way more qualified than they and then that the structure of the hierarchy would crumble as a result because that that creates a lot of disenfranchisement a lot of disillusion if like i come in and i start running your company you're way more qualified than i am yeah that just doesn't create a positive atmosphere so if it's i've always said this if it was a army or a platoon, morale was always low. Right. And so that just doesn't lend well to growing anything. And I felt that, and I was sensitive to that. And I had a problem with that. And I would be in Mark's year and I'd be in my wife's year because they were on the center owner's calls. And I'd be like, that's a problem.

This person shouldn't be here. You fire them, you fire fire them but you couldn't fire people in the company so that was always kind of like one of the things i i had a problem with and i had one foot out the door towards the end because i was starting to audition more and i was i was producing a web series that that i was working on and then ultimately um you know when this das women's group started um was when that was it. There was no more debates. There was no more like, and then, then I, then, then it's kind of the moment of when I saw that all the other stuff that I had a problem with and all the other things that I kind of got a hint of and a feel for, right. Um, made sense. And when I say had a feel for. If you're in a if you're if you're working in an atmosphere that has dark forces. Imbuing it, informing it or whatever, you're going to feel it.

On some level. Right now, whether you can articulate or pinpoint where it's coming from and how is a totally different thing, right? You know, and take, for example, what's going on in our world right now. There's a lot of dark forces going on right now, sometimes dressed up as altruism, right? They've got the uniform and the makeup of altruistic movements, but if you start to look underneath the forces, they're dark and they're seedy. Most good people don't think that's going on because they don't have that kind of psychology, right? Which allows that dark psychology to thrive is because most people don't even know to ask the question of why are you branding someone? Well, it doesn't even occur to most people. The abuse of powers don't really occur to those kind of people at all. So it allows good people to unwittingly promote something that's dark. When you see the thing that's negative, it becomes, it's the, you know, those, what do you call them, those pictures where the holograms hit me, it becomes that moment and you can't unsee it.

And then, then the forces that you've been feeling and the negative things that have been going on become way more clear to you. And then that informs your action. Like it's, it goes from, and that's, that's a,

that's a mind fuck transition. Just, just, just so I know you go from a believer to holy shit. I've been aligned with something that's dark. And then you're left with your own morality and what to do. And for me, I was, you know, I wanted to flip some tables. I wanted to, you know.

You wanted to punch some people in the face? Yeah, yeah. My wife and my family were put in danger. And I also knew that a lot of people around me were still in the indoctrination. And I had to be sensitive to that. They were still my friends. I didn't want to inflict pain. But my first thing was I need to get my wife and child out of harm's way.

And I'm going to go rattle as many cages as I can and then let the authorities do do their work and they did in an amazing way and they exposed things that I couldn't even imagine um what was what was the you know you talk about you know getting out of harm's way and you know for everyone that doesn't know you haven't maybe seen or heard the entire story of all this uh and we're gonna you know, getting out of harm's way. And, you know, for everyone that doesn't know, you haven't maybe seen or heard the entire story of all this. Uh, and we're going to, you know, tell people where to find all that at the end, but the, uh, but, um, what was it you talked about? I mean, some of it, like what were, what was really happening that made you practically figure for your life or your what your family's

life or like just what was happening or was it just how powerful they were or just the influence you nailed it um i recognized i was dealing with a powerful force that if they wanted to and they wanted to turn their guns on me, my wife, could. And they could do it legally. And legally is, I put in air quotes, that is the banner of morality they hide behind so they can do their abuses. Does that make sense? So they can come after us under this faux dressed up principle of we've wronged them, we've done things unjustly, and Keith is going to flex how he upholds his principles in the world in a very altruistic way while abusing people the entire time.

if i can really impart what the force is is it's different than traditional tit for tat if that makes sense um it's it's not an overt abuse it's not like you know i punch you right it's okay you know i punch you right it's okay i'm going to do it it's it's an abuse of the mind it's abuse of the soul if you will right so he sucks people's souls while pretending to empower them right yeah and that's when i recognized holy shit this guy's built a whole entire persona a whole different entire things and it's and and he's and he's abusing people and so the first thing you do the first thing i did is i just you got to get out of the clutches of it physically out of out of any sort of range so you can recoup you can strategize and we had we had and for those people don't know um mark vicente and his wife left before we did.

And that's really when I knew I was gone because I knew something was wrong. Because I had seen Mark a month before he left. I could feel it. And I knew he wasn't telling me something. But I didn't know what. And he knew he couldn't tell me directly what it was because I probably wouldn't have believed it. So he was very strategic in how he told Sarah. And he was very strategic in how he told me about the abuses that were going on with the women.

And he didn't know all of them. He didn't know everyone was branded. He didn't know there was a women's group that was going around and doing all these things. So it had been going on for probably two or three years, which incidentally, we all had a feel that something weird was going on. But I didn't live in Albany, so I didn't get to see it every day. that something weird was going on but I didn't live in Albany so I didn't get to see it every day and also it was people losing a lot of weight really quickly that I just looked at and go that's that's a that's your goal that's your life who am I to tell you that you know losing weight and all that stuff

shouldn't be your goal it wasn't my problem and I was in Albany I was out so the forces that you know that I felt like I was dealing with were dark and it wasn't something I could go intellectually talk people out of if that makes sense they were heavily indoctrinated you're talking people you're talking to people that have a dogma behind them and think they're right

and who they're defending at all costs it didn't really matter. And when you're in that kind of space, you know, I've seen, they're willing to go ruin people's lives in the name of Allah, if you will, right? They don't think that what they're doing is abusive. And that's dangerous.

You're dealing with something that, you know, you have to understand what you're looking at when you see that. And it's extreme. So I felt felt like okay that that's the problem what what i'm seeing right now in physical evidence is a physical manifestation of the emotional abuses that i feel like have been going on the entire time and couldn't articulate right so um in a lot of ways the physical manifestation of those abuses are the thing that took it down in a lot of ways, the physical manifestation of those abuses are the thing that took it down. And a lot of ways we were lucky to have that because there's no intellectual debate about branding someone in the pubic area with your initials. The conversation's over at that point. Yeah. And I was going to make sure it was over. I wasn't going to get into, oh,

well they agreed to it. No, fuck you. This shit stops with me. And I don't know what I would have done. And I don't say this to be a tough guy. And I certainly don't want to use – I didn't want to use violence to handle my problems. I think once you do that, you put yourself in a category and domain of lack of credibility, and you create a whole slew of other problems for yourself but if we were going to get if the if the police or fbi wasn't going to do their job and we're going to get tied up in litigation with claire bronfman's abusive regime i can't i don't know what i'd have

done because i knew where they all lived how many women ended up getting branded so we don't have the official tally but i think it's in the range of 20 okay and they claim there was like 100 women um that were in it but most of them didn't know what was going on how did i just once i just don't know if he once you start doing that i just don't know how he i I guess, envisioned it going down. He was just that brash. This was my letter. Well, look, you see this with everyone, right? You see this with dogmatic leaders everywhere.

Once you start to get away with all this stuff, you create a belief that you can do anything. Read your history books. Yeah. Right? And some of them have i mean you know you look at and i've read it as a history major in school and one of the most fascinating courses i took in college was on russian history and there was a poll done in like 1990 1991 um about joseph stalin and 51 of the population still saw him in a favorable light.

Now, the body count on Joseph Stalin, we don't know yet. It's in the 20 million, right? So that's very telling, right? These people think they can get away with it, and they get a conglomerate of people around them that agree with them, and then they're afraid to say anything otherwise. So, you know, it's a culture of fear masquerading as altruism. Um, and I think they lose touch. They lose touch with like, you have a billionaire heiress that can protect you. You

lose touch with the reality of, of your abuses. You lose touch with the reality of what you can get away with. And you've seen it in other things with jim jones and that was my letter to nancy when the president of the company when we got out it's like what was the next step with us where was this headed like if it's an algorithm right right you know you take an algorithm of someone who's 15 years old has really good habits um they say want to be an athlete they've've got things. You can extrapolate out that, hey, this person might end up in 10 years in a professional league based on those habits. You're branding women. You're having blowjob sessions. You have a secret group that they can only have sex with you. Extrapolate that algorithm five, 10 years from now. Where the fuck is that going? Yeah, exactly. Do you know what I mean? And there was already two women

very close to this guy who died of kind of rare cancers. And they were two women that were extremely healthy, like, you know, didn't put anything bad into their bodies. Now, I don't know their genetic disposition, but I also know they're very healthy and mindful. So these aren't accidents. And I don't think any of this stuff is coincidence. So once I really took inventory on that, you know, there was no way I was going to throw every punch I could to end it within my power. And that really became, you know, Mark Vicente, his wife Bonnie, my life and my wife's life for a better part of a year or two and still is in a sense of

I told my wife we're going to turn a negative into a positive and it's not going to be easy because the hardest part is we need to discipline our psychologies the biggest thing and I've been in situations like this before you have to really condition yourself to be positive about this and it didn't feel that way and it was waking

up at three in the morning it was waking up with like shit like how do i get involved with this and at first it's a little bit of the humiliation i just i told my wife we can't stay here long like we have to get out of this in our psychologies and turn our experience into wisdom and content so people can understand it. And our lane, whether we like it or not, isn't necessarily cults. It's abuses of power. And I don't think I'm going to be talking about cults for much longer. I mean, I think, you know, if I talk about cults and the abuses of power responsibly, this is going to segue into something else. And so our story is our power right now.

And that's been somewhat of a difficult thing to embrace just for a lot of reasons. But I firmly believe a lot of times in life, you don't get to pick and choose how and what you're going to stand for, what you're going to stand for. It's what's ever in front of you. And that's going to dictate your character. A lot of the times, um, the adversity and how you handle it. Um, and that's been the lesson of this whole thing. And hopefully I can turn that lesson into some wisdom and that's, you know, what our podcast is about now and and whenever i sit down

with someone i i just really it's very important for me to stay in that lane until other other lanes open up and i feel like i'm an authority in that lane if that makes sense it does make sense um yeah because i'm serving the story so the story doesn't serve me right um so and and my story's different than my wife's and everyone else's who's has been involved with it so that's that's been the lesson of this whole thing and what episode are you got how far are you today a little bit culty is the so we're done with our first season okay first season's over so uh we had 13 episodes and how that came to be was one is a great example of what to embrace and how to embrace it um i was looking forward to wrapping this thing up after the vow i kind of felt like there was some exposure of you know i never wanted my personal life to be other people's entertainment

and i was somewhat reluctant and i have a lot of friends who know me and talk to me called me after and it's like it's it's really funny every every shot of you every cutaway of you is you shaking your head so i was like yeah you know it wasn't i hadn't also necessarily reconciled you know my my trauma so much and i really wasn't comfortable um showing that all the time until I recognized, you know, a lot of times when they'd ask me questions, I was like, I can answer this and I can answer this responsibly. I think, you know, I can answer this without being pissed off or I can answer this like where I think this is good content for people out there that will help people. So ultimately, that was all that's always the thing that was tugging at me, you know? And I also felt like, um, people telling the story inadequately or irresponsibly, I felt like that doesn't do the story justice. Let me answer that,

you know? Um, and you know, that might be presumptuous. Um, but that's always the, that's always going to be the problem, right? Are you presumptuous. Um, but that's always the, that's always going to be the problem, right? Are you presumptuous to think that your story is interesting? Are you presumptuous to think it's going to help people? Um, and I decided to err on the side of, you know, giving it a shot. You know, I come from, you know, we live in a generation where tick tock instagram and all that stuff attention is the uh objective a lot of the times and i can remember when i was like in fifth or sixth grade i scored a touchdown and i started celebrating the end zone in the car ride home my dad said act like you've been there before so i come from a generation of you know know, don't seek the spotlight. Don't like, so there's

that conflict of, you know, attention is the value and the objective. Sometimes the attention ought to be the effect of your pursuits and ought to be you when you sit down with someone, the attention you're getting is the effect of some sort of pursuit that you have or some sort of objective value that people want to hear. So I've always kind of wrestled with that. And when we were approached about the podcast, I'll say this, you know, we had some dark forces pulling out of pulling at us. And when we got out, the light showed up and it showed up in spades. It showed up in the directors of the vow just in terms of their sensitivity to

the story, the questions they ask. And then we had some really great citizens of sound as the people that produced our podcast. And they said, look, your story is amazing. We think you should do a podcast. And I just said, no, I'm done. And Sarah was like, we were both kind of done. And then another woman who was our associate producer, a woman named Jess Tardy, who was familiar with the story, pitched us on a whole idea. And I looked at Sarah and I go, that's actually not a bad idea. We can just riff. And we did, and it started to grow,

and we are negotiating a contract for a second season right now, which will start in probably a couple weeks. I love it, man. What else are you up to? Universe provided. What else are you up to? Well, two kids dominate my time, I'll tell you that. So I love that. I love it, man. So what else are you up to? a week so i've been doing a lot of that um and this podcast you know we didn't know we were taking a bite out of it takes takes up a lot of time so you know it was perfect timing in terms of covid because we basically had an opportunity fall right into our living room where we could do

it so that's been great so you know being a good dad is what i'm what I've been trying to do. And, you know, podcast and auditioning a lot. And, you know, there's other stuff that we're kicking around right now, but I think just dominate what's in front of you as much as you can. What would you tell people that are listening? You know, like I wanted to have you on to hear the other side of, of, of where business goes south and how people get drawn in and all those things and all the wonderment that was your story.

What would you tell people? Because now, like you mentioned, the world we live in with attention and all these things, so the opportunity is even greater for something like this to – it's probably happening right now. We don't even know it, or someone knows it. But what would you tell someone that's listening? Obviously, you're a smart guy,

you were looking out for it, you always had this tug of negative energy that was going on with it. But is there anything you'd tell people that might be going through it or having that potential you know i mean the question i hear you asking is is what are the red flags and and kind of what are some of the precursors and stuff like that um because because we're in an age where the traditional job cycles aren't what they are, and there's a lot of people inventing gigs online and the economic situation, the pressures are somewhat more acute than previous generations.

Right. Which make you somewhat susceptible, right? And there's not a lot of clear pathways to do jobs that are somewhat obsolete now. And it was different 20 years ago, but it was the precursor for what's going on right now. So you see a lot of these people propagating themselves as people that they're not. And I think that's becoming way more exposed because it's, it's, we're just saturated with it. So, um, I would say a couple things. Number one, trust your gut, right? And there's a couple delineations in that because one of the first things they told us is like,

if this feels bad, it probably means it's working, right? So, you know, that comes with a caveat, right? I would find people that are doing what you want to do at the highest level and figure out what they do, you know, in terms of a pursuit. If you come across someone who's somewhat of a claims as a prophet and makes bold assertions about themselves, that's a pretty good indication that they're not that. A lot of times. indication that they're not that a lot of times if you try to challenge and ask questions and get pushback and get gas lit and get flipped around on you that's a pretty good indication that you're it's something to run from um and i would if something feels bad i would not move forward until it feels better meaning Meaning this is a problem.

Why is this a problem? Like there was certain things that I handed the responsibility of interrogation off to someone. I felt like it had done it for me. If that makes sense. I would go, what is this they're saying about him here? And they'd give me an explanation back.

And because I trusted them and, and all that stuff, I'll go, okay. And i'll accept it to me when i look back on my responsibility that's the biggest mistake i had because i had some questions i went to people that i trusted but i didn't recognize that they were indoctrinated into um towing the company line And that cost me probably 12 years of my life because I didn't go back and really like, and, and, and a lot of it was like somewhat laziness on my part and somewhat like, I trust them, you know? And, and, and that, and that, you know,

that costs me, you know, it's going back to the specific points of when that happened. It's, it's hard to, it's hard to figure out. One of my mentors always told me it is, you don't have to apologize for trusting, but verifying, right? Trust, verify. Right. Exactly. That's you nailed it. And so, you know, I, it isn't to say I don't trust anymore i trust differently and one of the things um that i'm very very sensitive to right now

um and i pointed out to my wife every time i see it is the loading of language um we get into a lot of some of these these in our podcast and how it looks but our story doesn't mean anything if we can't take our experience and kind of relate it to what's going on in other domains and other hierarchies because the abuses of power that went on in our organization aren't proprietary to cults right and the loading of language is one that i see right now particularly and not to pick and delineate on but the political correctness that's going on right now where if you control the words and you control um the dialogue in that way it means you control the thoughts and it means you control the nature of where the conversation is going to go. And that leads to thoughts, which lead to behaviors.

And you see it a lot going on in our school systems right now. And you see a lot of these dogmatic behaviors going on right now that I just went through. And so I think if I can make my story worth anything, it's really, really be responsible with how I articulate how those things work and how they can see their way into the psychology of not just our mainstream media but our schools and you know it's it's not too long after our schooling systems bad ideas permeate into our culture

it takes a generation it takes very it's it it's very quick and i see a lot of that stuff going on right now, and the number one effect of it is division. So that's one of the things I'm super sensitive to right now, and that might change, but that's the one right now where I just feel like they're controlling language, which controls thoughts, which controls behavior, and that's what happened. Slippery slope. Yes. So, you know, and you asked me in three to six months,

it might be something different. But right now that's, that's what I would really get people to do and go read, read a lot, read people you disagree with, read them a lot, you know? Read people you disagree with. Read them a lot. And if you're 20, 25, even 30, stay on that journey. You don't have to. It's yours.

And not anyone else's to dictate. But I just find reading just expands your entire and gives you a bigger template to compare and contrast. And don't stop reading. Don't stop, for sure. Yeah. No, I'm teaching my 7-year-old to read right now, and he's going through the frustration of it. And I said, listen, you get over this hump,

and it opens up an entire world for you. Oh, yeah. Anthony, I really appreciate all your openness and wisdom and coming on. Where can people keep up with everything? Watch The Vow. It's on HBO? HBO Max. Yeah.

So there's The Vow, and there's Season 2 that's coming out, I think in November-ish. We're not sure because they're always editing and stuff like that. Of A Little Bit Culty, right? No, The Vow. A Little Bit Culty, you can go on to all the main... Google A Little Bit Culty and it'll come up. Yeah, you can come up. and we have great guests on there we

have the scientology story on our on that as well a lot of people ex-members a lot of experts yeah that can answer a lot of the questions you ask me very very clinically um and um we have 13 episodes there and then we have our season two, which will be coming out, you know, probably the next couple of months, time it up with the vow. You can follow us on a little bit Colty and Instagram and that's it. Cool, man. Really appreciate you coming on. And yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate you giving me a platform to share my story.

Yeah, my pleasure. And hey guys, we really appreciate Anthony Ames coming on. He just told you where to find him. Go check out a little bit culty and check out The Vow. You know where to find us. We're at theradcast.com, at the.rad.cast on Instagram, and I'm at Ryan Offord on all the platforms. We'll see you next time on The Radcast.